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View Full Version : Bumped up from a 3.0 to 4.0 - lost appeal - HELP! Want to move down.


rayrinker
02-01-2010, 09:34 AM
Here's a new one.

I am trying to figure out how to get my ranking back down to a 3.5 after having been bumped up by the USTA computer.

Here is my scenerio:
I have played mixed doubles tennis under the USTA since the Fall of 2009 (when I first got membership to the USTA.)
I was recently bumped up from a 3.0 to a 4.0 rating
I have only played in 6 matches in my whole USTA "career"
I have won only one (1) match
I joined the 7.0 mixed doubles team in order to help my team have enough players to form a team (and not forfeit matches)

I am trying to get my ranking back to a 3.0, or at least a 3.5 so that I can play with people my own speed. (My 3.5 friends KILL me on the court)
I have appealed, but the computer has denied my appeal stating "Automated appeal requested down for xxxx is denied - Rating outside appealable range."

Okay, so I called my regional representative and he said there was nothing I could do...but...
He gave me the name of the Sectional League Coordinator. Here is what she said:
I've looked into your rating and see what happened.
Only 4 matches were used to generate your rating, showing your record as 1 win and 3 losses. The other matches were played too late to be incorporated in your rating.
First, you self rated at the 3.0 level. Rather than play 6.0 mixed, you played in a 7.0 mixed league. This means that for the most part, your opponents were going to be rated higher than you. Therefore, you should have lost most of your matches.
The next issue is, you were a 3.0 self rated player playing with a 3.0 computer rated partner for 3 of those 4 matches. Therefore, you were a 6.0 combination playing against 7.0 combinations. You played one match with xxx, who was a 3.5 (now moved to 4.0). Once again, you had a 6.5 combination against 7.0 opponents. So, you played "up" and there is always more risk of being moved to a higher level when you do that.
You have already tried the automatic appeal, and you state it was denied because your rating did not meet the criteria.
I'm sorry, I know you don't want to hear this, but you have no other recourse. The automatic appeal option is final with no further appeal process other than medical. Medical must be a serious disabling injury or illness occuring after year end ratings were achieved.
I can only suggest that you play as much league tennis as you can in 2010, at your level, and see where you fall with the 2010 end of year ratings. The more matches played, the more accurate the rating.
If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.


OKAY - so that's what I am up against. What do you think I should do???
I want to play with my friends in their men's 3.5 ranking (doubles) league. Otherwise, I really don't want to play. I am not that good and I will get CREAMED if I play a 4.0 player. I have heard of players that try to get up to 4.0 for 10 years and can't make it. Why me...I don't want it!

Our tennis pro has attempted to assist me. He says that he has never heard of anyone being bumped up two levels...especially only winning one mixed doubles match. He has coached and played for over 20 years...

ANY CREATIVE SUGGESTIONS FOR ME???

thanks!

BigHitterSE
02-01-2010, 09:41 AM
That is crazy!
So much for the USTA trying to "grow the game".
Sounds like they just ****ed off another passionate league player.

ronray43
02-01-2010, 09:45 AM
Play 3-4 matches at #1 singles in USTA 4.0 adult mens league and play 3-4 4.0 singles matches at larger sanctioned tournaments. Skip the doubles. If you get killed, you'll get moved down.

Wakenslam
02-01-2010, 09:57 AM
Play 3-4 matches at #1 singles in USTA 4.0 adult mens league and play 3-4 4.0 singles matches at larger sanctioned tournaments. Skip the doubles. If you get killed, you'll get moved down.

That's good advice. Play only singles and get demolished. Next year you'll get back to 3.5. The other option is just play other leagues.

cknobman
02-01-2010, 10:02 AM
Reading your scenario it sounds like the system is doing what it is supposed to do.

Dont rate yourself 3.0 and then play against 4.0's because even if you loose your dynamic rating still goes up. Then you managed to win a match which really made your dynamic rating move up.

I say: Take your lumps and 4.0 this spring and get a mid year bump down to 3.5. Once that happens dont play out of level anymore unless you want to be rated accordingly for it.

KFwinds
02-01-2010, 10:02 AM
Here's a new one.

I am trying to figure out how to get my ranking back down to a 3.5 after having been bumped up by the USTA computer.

Here is my scenerio:
I have played mixed doubles tennis under the USTA since the Fall of 2009 (when I first got membership to the USTA.)
I was recently bumped up from a 3.0 to a 4.0 rating
I have only played in 6 matches in my whole USTA "career"
I have won only one (1) match
I joined the 7.0 mixed doubles team in order to help my team have enough players to form a team (and not forfeit matches)

I am trying to get my ranking back to a 3.0, or at least a 3.5 so that I can play with people my own speed. (My 3.5 friends KILL me on the court)
I have appealed, but the computer has denied my appeal stating "Automated appeal requested down for xxxx is denied - Rating outside appealable range."

Okay, so I called my regional representative and he said there was nothing I could do...but...
He gave me the name of the Sectional League Coordinator. Here is what she said:
I've looked into your rating and see what happened.
Only 4 matches were used to generate your rating, showing your record as 1 win and 3 losses. The other matches were played too late to be incorporated in your rating.
First, you self rated at the 3.0 level. Rather than play 6.0 mixed, you played in a 7.0 mixed league. This means that for the most part, your opponents were going to be rated higher than you. Therefore, you should have lost most of your matches.
The next issue is, you were a 3.0 self rated player playing with a 3.0 computer rated partner for 3 of those 4 matches. Therefore, you were a 6.0 combination playing against 7.0 combinations. You played one match with xxx, who was a 3.5 (now moved to 4.0). Once again, you had a 6.5 combination against 7.0 opponents. So, you played "up" and there is always more risk of being moved to a higher level when you do that.
You have already tried the automatic appeal, and you state it was denied because your rating did not meet the criteria.
I'm sorry, I know you don't want to hear this, but you have no other recourse. The automatic appeal option is final with no further appeal process other than medical. Medical must be a serious disabling injury or illness occuring after year end ratings were achieved.
I can only suggest that you play as much league tennis as you can in 2010, at your level, and see where you fall with the 2010 end of year ratings. The more matches played, the more accurate the rating.
If you have further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.


OKAY - so that's what I am up against. What do you think I should do???
I want to play with my friends in their men's 3.5 ranking (doubles) league. Otherwise, I really don't want to play. I am not that good and I will get CREAMED if I play a 4.0 player. I have heard of players that try to get up to 4.0 for 10 years and can't make it. Why me...I don't want it!

Our tennis pro has attempted to assist me. He says that he has never heard of anyone being bumped up two levels...especially only winning one mixed doubles match. He has coached and played for over 20 years...

ANY CREATIVE SUGGESTIONS FOR ME???

thanks!

If your primary motivation is to play with your buddies, you really don't need USTA for that. Call them up, grab some court time, and go play. Have a BBQ and some beers afterward. Screw the USTA.

Fedace
02-01-2010, 10:03 AM
Talk with the Regional coordinator

J_R_B
02-01-2010, 10:10 AM
Our tennis pro has attempted to assist me. He says that he has never heard of anyone being bumped up two levels...especially only winning one mixed doubles match. He has coached and played for over 20 years...

I have seen several people get bumped up 2 levels. It's not common, but it happens. In every other case, though, when you look at their record, you understand (and in most cases, they played at nationals). There was at least one player that went 3.5 -> 4.5 and a couple 3.0 -> 4.0 in our district this year.

rayrinker
02-01-2010, 10:13 AM
Reading your scenario it sounds like the system is doing what it is supposed to do.

Dont rate yourself 3.0 and then play against 4.0's because even if you loose your dynamic rating still goes up. Then you managed to win a match which really made your dynamic rating move up.

I say: Take your lumps and 4.0 this spring and get a mid year bump down to 3.5. Once that happens dont play out of level anymore unless you want to be rated accordingly for it.

Yes, unfortunately that is what I will probably end up doing. I have learned my lesson now, but, as a new USTA player, I didn't realize that my rating would be altered by two levels by "playing up" in matches. I haven't read anything about that in the rules...Seems like punishment instead of opportunity.

OrangePower
02-01-2010, 10:42 AM
Based on your description and the regional representative's explanation, it's legitimate that you were bumped up. You and a weak partner were competitive against much stronger opposition. So there you go.

If I were in your position, I'd just go ahead and play 4.0 league. You might surprise yourself and do better than you think. And even if you get killed the first few matches, you might find that you improve quickly by playing against better competition. If not, you'll get bumped down at the end of the season.

The real downside is that you won't be able to play on a team with your 3.5 friends. But maybe you can persuade some of them to play up and join a 4.0 team with you.

kylebarendrick
02-01-2010, 10:48 AM
I think you got caught in the overall shift in ratings this year as well. Based on your story, getting a 3.5 rating would make sense - for most years. You played and were competetive against 3.5 players.

Unfortunately, this happened in a year where USTA moved a lot of very average 3.5s into the 4.0 level. As it turned out, that included you. I guess the good news is that there are a lot of people playing 4.0 this year that were average 3.5s last year. So yes, some people will cream you. Hopefully you'll get some good matches as well.

Blade0324
02-01-2010, 10:51 AM
I feel for you rayrinker. I was a computer rated 3.5 last year and played in 3.5 men's and then 4.0 as well as 3.5 and 4.0 tourneys. Won 2 3.5 tourneys and finals of the state open at 3.5. Lost in 2 finals at 4.0 tourneys all doubles.
I went 9-0 league singles at 3.5 and 1-0 doubles in league. 4.0 league I was 2-1 singles and 2-2 doubles and both league teams went to districts.

As a result I got the bump from 3.5-4.5 so needless to say it's going to be a rough time. I have embraced it in that my goal was to get to 4.5 within the next 4 years so it's goal accomplished ahead of schedule. I have simply been working a great deal with a coach and hitting with much better players and my game has accelerated dramatically.

My advice is to go out and practice a lot and get some coaching as well. This will make you better equiped to deal with your new level. More than anything just have fun!!!

athiker
02-01-2010, 11:23 AM
I think you got caught in the overall shift in ratings this year as well. Based on your story, getting a 3.5 rating would make sense - for most years. You played and were competetive against 3.5 players.

Unfortunately, this happened in a year where USTA moved a lot of very average 3.5s into the 4.0 level. As it turned out, that included you. I guess the good news is that there are a lot of people playing 4.0 this year that were average 3.5s last year. So yes, some people will cream you. Hopefully you'll get some good matches as well.

+1 Don't assume you will get creamed at 4.0. You will be seeing a lot of folks that you would've seen playing 3.5 last year and would've stayed 3.5 in years past.

It sounds like you were an improving 3.0 last year heading toward a legitimate 3.5. You self-rated so I'm assuming you recently started getting more serious about tennis lately and joined league play...maybe serious isn't the right word, but started playing more. Just set your goal to keep improving and be a legitimate 4.0 by season's end this year. True the downside is you won't be able to play with some of your friends, but get some clinics going together and hopefully they can join you at 4.0 next year.

Just to repeat...the new 4.0 is not the 4.0 of previous years. You will be playing a lot of former 3.5 players that were newly bumped up. Of course you will probably run into a few previous 4.0s that were not bumped to 4.5 and that might be tough, but overall don't assume you will get killed at 4.0.

I was a self-rated 3.0 in spring of 2009 and am now a new 3.5. My game has improved and I know from practice sets I can hang with some of the new 4.0's from our group. I also know some of the guys that remained 3.5 are every bit as good as some of the guys that got bumped up!

It will take a few years for the new rating scheme to sift through players but it will never be perfect. Players' skills are changing all the time (new/returning to the game, lessons, age, injury), in doubles partnering with certain partners (even if rated the same) for certain matches makes a big difference in match score results. I know I play much better with some of my teammates than others even though they are the same general rating. My 2c.

JoelDali
02-01-2010, 11:24 AM
More than anything just have fun!!!

I don't know anyone playing USTA league out there just having fun and not paying hundreds of dollars a year to get some giggles on the court.

Its about winning.

Why else are these threads created? They are created because they are afraid of losing and getting spanked, if it was about fun they would not care and be happy to compete against higher level people. Feelings are fragile amongst us USTA hacks. I've seen people in near tears because of it.

It is a brutal, bloodthirsty field of competition in my section. In fact, a guy I know of that is a bonifide 5.0 (oh how I envy your doubles game sir) is playing 8.0 mixed and should be reported and DQ'd but it aint happening cuz he will bring a National title to our section, guaranteed.

I happen to be a facility where a buddy's 3.5 team was playing the other night and lo and behold theres 2 guys and a captain that were banned last year playing 3.5 mixed! These guys are now 4.5s and went to Nationals in 2008 as sandbagging 3.5s....LOL....Its not about fun, sorry!

People want to win, people are serious on the court, not having fun. At least in my town. :)

Me personally, I'm about improving my own game when I'm playing league matches. Leagues shouldn't be so serious. Tournaments are for that.

USTA League matches went up to $30 in my area. Its definitely not fun anymore.

I'm not attacking, just speaking my mind in yet another NTRP beatdown thread.

tom10s
02-01-2010, 11:31 AM
if you want to "manufacture" a 3.5 rating:

1) if you are 60 or older you can sit out 2 years and then self-rate again.
if under 60 then you can sit out 3 years and then self-rate again.

2) enter 4.0 singles tournaments and get clobbered. lose like a dog 6-0 6-1...
do not play any doubles at all. if you insist on playing league, play only singles for a team that doesn't mind losing your court every match...again, lose like a dog 6-0 6-1...

Nellie
02-01-2010, 11:33 AM
I would not want to show up to waste my time and good money to get killed. That is not fun for you or the opponent.

It sounds like the USTA does not want your business.

rayrinker
02-01-2010, 11:33 AM
Wow, thanks for all of the feedback. Wonderful suggestions! This is why I posted here...it helps to read everyone's opinions. (Before posting I was beating myself up about this...among other options I had even thought about re-registering as a self-ranked 3.5 player)

It seems like this has happened to more people than just myself. Still seems illogical. I will let you know how things transpire.

thanks again!

tom10s
02-01-2010, 11:33 AM
this is not that unusual. a sandbagger in my area self-rated at 3.0, played only mixed league, and was double bumped to 4.0 at year's end back in 2008....

tom10s
02-01-2010, 11:39 AM
Wow, thanks for all of the feedback. Wonderful suggestions! This is why I posted here...it helps to read everyone's opinions. (Before posting I was beating myself up about this...among other options I had even thought about re-registering as a self-ranked 3.5 player)


do NOT try to defraud the usta by creating a "new" usta persona. this will get you banned. either deal with it like recommended above OR sit out for 3 years and self-rate.

gameboy
02-01-2010, 11:44 AM
Seriously, this is just a bump up from 3.5 to 4.0, which is not that unusual. Just because you self-rated 3.0 does not mean you were 3.0 to begin with.

rayrinker
02-01-2010, 11:56 AM
do NOT try to defraud the usta by creating a "new" usta persona. this will get you banned. either deal with it like recommended above OR sit out for 3 years and self-rate.

No, just saying it was a thought. That's not my style. I guess I am just discouraged, as
1) my 3.5 friends tend to dominate when I play against them, and
2) now I can't even help them round out their team for the upcoming men's doubles season

T Woody
02-01-2010, 12:26 PM
1) my 3.5 friends tend to dominate when I play against them

Right, but I'm guessing all these 3.5 friends are now 4.0's right? I self rated 3.5 late last year, played 3 matches, then got bumped to 4.0. I was frustrated at first but now that I see how the ratings shook out, all the best 4.0's are now 4.5's and the top 25% of 3.5's are now 4.0. So at 4.0, you really will have a solid chance to compete. You may not win tournaments, but I'm sure you'll find yourself in competitive matches if you keep practicing. And you'll be tons better by the end of 2010 than if you had played 3.5!


2) now I can't even help them round out their team for the upcoming men's doubles season

Yeah this definitely sucks. Not much you can do about that one.

rayrinker
02-01-2010, 12:36 PM
Right, but I'm guessing all these 3.5 friends are now 4.0's right?

No they are 3.5 players. Two out of the group moved up from 3.0 to 3.5 at same time I moved up.
At least my story makes for good conversation at parties! Plus, they get to say that they can kick a 4.0's behind!!!

T Woody
02-01-2010, 12:37 PM
Oh damn, that's rough. If you don't mind my asking, how old are you and how long have you been playing?

rayrinker
02-01-2010, 12:41 PM
I am 47. I have been playing for 3 years fairly regularly, but played at high school age (not on the team). I am a soccer player with good speed on the court...generally running down any ball, but hitting accuracy is the issue. Really just learning the finer points of positioning myself on the court in doubles and communication.

T Woody
02-01-2010, 12:47 PM
The fact that you have solid mobility and movement and you're only held back by technique is a really good thing. The guys who seem to be getting hit the hardest by the ratings adjustment are older dudes who have craft but do not have the movement necessary to play up another level.

beernutz
02-01-2010, 01:17 PM
I know people will disagree but I think you are just another example helping to prove that the USTA "system" is broken. I played USTA for a number of years and continually ran into ringers and sandbaggers who had no business at all at the level I was playing. Players who win 80+% of all their matches and 100% of their meaningful matches, but somehow manage to make every match competitive (hmmm, I wonder how a good player would be able to do such a thing) and to never have any lopsided wins. They would manipulate the system and the appeals process and never get bumped.

Now after the USTA "fixes" their system we hear anecdotal stories like this one where a guy plays 4 mixed matches, loses three of them and yet gets double bumped and now has no recourse. Brilliant!

T Woody
02-01-2010, 01:39 PM
Players who win 80+% of all their matches and 100% of their meaningful matches, but somehow manage to make every match competitive (hmmm, I wonder how a good player would be able to do such a thing) and to never have any lopsided wins. They would manipulate the system and the appeals process and never get bumped.

Wow, do people really do this? haha lol. Did I miss something, aren't we playing recreational tennis? :)

Blade0324
02-01-2010, 02:17 PM
Wow, do people really do this? haha lol. Did I miss something, aren't we playing recreational tennis? :)

Nope, no recreational tennis in my area. Every match ends with the winner taking home a big wheelbarrow full of cash. :wink:

Cindysphinx
02-02-2010, 04:55 AM
OP, you should not sweat it and play your level. There have been people who got a double-bump without the help of a system-wide ratings adjustment, and they survived.

Think of it as an opportunity to work on your game. You'll do fine. And if you don't, so what?

Cindy -- who thinks it is more fun to try to pull off an upset than to beat down less skilled players

tom10s
02-02-2010, 05:27 AM
OP, you should not sweat it and play your level. There have been people who got a double-bump without the help of a system-wide ratings adjustment, and they survived.

Think of it as an opportunity to work on your game. You'll do fine. And if you don't, so what?

Cindy -- who thinks it is more fun to try to pull off an upset than to beat down less skilled players

Huh?
Is this the same cindy who just posted the following:

"I didn't get bumped. And I'm having a grand old time.....
In mixed, I'm not seeing twist serves and other shots I cannot handle. In ladies, I am seeing ladies who can't blast the ball past me too often."

Sounds like you revel in playing against inferior caliber players?

JoelDali
02-02-2010, 07:13 AM
Huh?
Is this the same cindy who just posted the following:

"I didn't get bumped. And I'm having a grand old time.....
In mixed, I'm not seeing twist serves and other shots I cannot handle. In ladies, I am seeing ladies who can't blast the ball past me too often."

Sounds like you revel in playing against inferior caliber players?

LOL

0wn3D.

:)

Cindy Sandbagger

vandre
02-02-2010, 08:45 AM
LOL

0wn3D.

:)

Cindy Sandbagger

priceless!!!! thank you both so much!!!!!

JoelDali
02-02-2010, 09:00 AM
People want to win.

No one wants to lose.

The fear of admitting this amongst the 3.5 goat crowd is so comical.

:)

JavierLW
02-02-2010, 09:04 AM
Seriously, this is just a bump up from 3.5 to 4.0, which is not that unusual. Just because you self-rated 3.0 does not mean you were 3.0 to begin with.

That's a really brilliant observation.

He's right, the OP didnt get double bumped! Self ratings just allow you to play in a particular level, it doesnt get involved in the math at all.

He likely played against some other players who got bumped up themselves.

And wins and losses do not matter at all. If he was truely a 3.0, he should of lost 6-0, 6-0 everytime he lost.

He can blame all the pioneers who have been cheating for years for his plight, it is not impossible to have a system where actual humans can determine where he should play.

Options are:

1) Play 4.0, maybe get moved down next year. Or better yet, just take more lessons and work on your game to get better.

2) Sit out for 3 years, re-rate at 3.5.

3) Have your wife give you a serious career ending injury so you can then get a medical appeal.

Luckily tons of 3.5 players got moved into 4.0 so it shouldnt be that big of a deal if you have to play 4.0.

North
02-02-2010, 01:38 PM
That is crazy!
So much for the USTA trying to "grow the game".
Sounds like they just ****ed off another passionate league player.

Actually, over the past few years I've met a LOT of people who have quit USTA (after only a year or two) because of all the sandbagging, etc. None ever rejoined USTA.

OTOH - I know a bunch of people very upset about being bumped up who swore they were going to quit and have not. It will be interesting to see if they do wind up quitting (because now they are actually competitive and will not win regularly).

JavierLW
02-02-2010, 02:29 PM
OTOH - I know a bunch of people very upset about being bumped up who swore they were going to quit and have not. It will be interesting to see if they do wind up quitting (because now they are actually competitive and will not win regularly).

Ironically those are the very same people that certain coordinators who used to cater to them, look the other way, and claim they were being "player friendly" to.

It always amazed me when some new person shows up on a 3.5 team and they claimed it was being "player friendly" to allow them to play down, but if they did get moved up, you never saw them sign up for a 4.0 team. (which proves they are not playing for the interest of playing in a league, they are the sort that are only happy if they are always winning or going to the playoffs, etc....)

burosky
02-02-2010, 02:40 PM
Let me see if I understand this right. You played up for one reason or another and when you were bumped up to the level you played up to, you want to move back down. I think the computer is just doing what it was designed to do.

Delano
02-02-2010, 04:06 PM
Are you really sure you're going to get killed? It's really hard to get the "old" 4.0 out of your head, but you might not be quite as weak in the new league as you think.

My advice isn't all that different than what the USTA official told you - play as many matches at your new level as possible. If you get beat down, well, that sucks, but it's only for a year. I've been through it, most people probably have. If you succeed, well even sweeter.

BTW, I don't want to come off as too optimistic here. I understand this seems like a crappy situation, I'm just trying to look on the bright side. I actually know a dude who lost *all* his 4.0 and 4.5 matches (about 10 total) and still got bumped up from 4.0 to 4.5. I know that the USTA considers set scores, not wins, but I think the algorithm should make *some* allowance for W-L record. Something's not working when a dude who didn't even win a match at his own level gets bumped up, even if all the matches at the higher level were competitive.