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snoopy
02-03-2010, 04:10 PM
http://www.fitforcombatsystem.com/the-benefits-of-big-lifts-arent-so-big/

This article points out a study to debunk the idea that lifting big weights will lead to hypertrophy.

Vyse
02-03-2010, 04:19 PM
I don't think this is really saying much besides your hormones go down after an hour. You should still do squats and deadlifts.

snoopy
02-03-2010, 05:20 PM
I agree.

I thought the study was interesting, hence the link.

tricky
02-03-2010, 09:09 PM
It's a temporary effect, and any effect would be local rather than systemic. If you did nothing but squats, your chest probably won't grow very much. If anything, full body training > splits.

mikro112
02-03-2010, 09:50 PM
I thought this link was also very interesting:

http://www.fitforcombatsystem.com/resolutioneers-project-cardio-confusion/

tricky
02-04-2010, 01:08 AM
I thought this link was also very interesting:

http://www.fitforcombatsystem.com/re...dio-confusion/

Wish they had cited the studies.

the critical level that results in excess cortisol secretion occurs after about 45 minutes of exercise-

Ehh, that's actually a distortion. The original studies correlating 60+ minutes exercise with excess cortisol were done with people pushing their VO2 max over that time period. That is nothing like weight training or even normal steady state cardio.

When a person engages in overload weight training, especially higher intenstity training, the body is sent a signal to increase contractile protein synthesis.

This is true.

Rather than increasing the tone and size of the muscle cells, it sends a signal to the mitochondrial mass to enhance energy production. The signal to the cells is to switch from contractile muscle to the smaller mitochondria

This, however, is not true. Otherwise, your average football player would be small and tiny. Signaling leading to hypertrophy and signaling leading to anaerobic conditioning compete somewhat. That is why you want to do your heavy sets before your conditioning work. However, unless you're doing marathons without any weight training at all, it's unlikely that your TypeII/FT fibers are going to be recoded into slow twitch.

Moreover, it's actually the mitochondria that provides the energetic foundation for protein synthesis. After all, that is why people take creatine, and why people overfeed themselves to gain mass.

3 . It has been shown, that high volume cardiovascular exercise can completely deplete satellite cells in muscle fiber, which means no new fiber can grow or existing fiber be repaired.

Only in extreme cases, such as running a UHT.

Cortisol will still be released during HIIT, but the low intensity periods moderate the release. In traditional cardio, once the critical level is reached, the body pumps out massive quantities of cortisol while a person is exercising.

Cortisol levels in HIIT actually can be high, but it varies depending on your choice of movement (i.e. PRE or perceived rate of exertion) as well as length of time. One of HIIT's fat-burning mechanisms is due to it stressing your adrenal glands in intense, but short bursts. Much like high intensity lifting.

chess9
02-04-2010, 04:58 AM
http://www.fitforcombatsystem.com/the-benefits-of-big-lifts-arent-so-big/

This article points out a study to debunk the idea that lifting big weights will lead to hypertrophy.

Interesting article, Snoopy!! Thanks for that.

It takes years, IMHO, to put on significant muscle mass. We get kids coming into this forum on a regular basis saying they want to 'add 20 lbs of muscle in 4 weeks'. LOL! When I was in the Marines I was 185 lbs and totally ripped at age 19. When I went on a binge of heavy lifting (remember, I'd been lifting already for 20 years) for three years from ages 29-32 I went to 232 lbs, but I was about 18% bodyfat! (Let me tell you, that Weider Whey Protein made you fat and not much else!) Sure, I put on about 20 lbs of muscle at a time when my T levels were still fairly high, but I also got too fat.

Something else about this study. Some people are responders and some aren't when it comes to lifting. Who you pick to be in your study matters! In my experience, most guys do not get any hypertrophy without years of hard work. 15 weeks? LOL! The study designers knew how the study would turn out when they designed it!

So, what is the take home lesson? If you want to be big, take steroids? :) No, if you want to be strong, lift heavy. If you want the 'sides' of lifting heavy, like a better hormonal profile, then lift heavy. Injury prevention? Stretch (yoga), lift heavy. If you are in a car or bike accident your chances of living or having reduced impairment are greater if you are strong, IMHO. A friend of mine, who was an Army officer at the time, was hit by a car on his bike and went through the windshield (had his helmet on) and survived! He was built like a tank!

Anyway, I'll keep lifting heavy.

-Robert

r2473
02-04-2010, 08:25 AM
When I was in the Marines I was 185 lbs and totally ripped at age 19. When I went on a binge of heavy lifting (remember, I'd been lifting already for 20 years) for three years from ages 29-32 I went to 232 lbs, but I was about 18% bodyfat!

Are you about 6' 3"?

chess9
02-04-2010, 09:19 AM
Are you about 6' 3"?

At that time I was about 6'1" tall. I'm just slightly over 6 feet now.

I love your sig, btw!

-Robert

r2473
02-04-2010, 09:52 AM
At that time I was about 6'1" tall. I'm just slightly over 6 feet now.

I love your sig, btw!

-Robert

Thanks. It helps me keep some perspective.

If your bf% (18%) is accurate, I would estimate that you gained 30 pounds of muscle. Your LBM (232 - (.18 * 232)) would have been about 190. I am also 6' 1" and know my untrained LBM is 160-ish.

At your size, for every 1% you are off with your bf%, you underestimate (or overestimate) you LBM or muscle amount by about 2 pounds.

Doesn't matter. The point of your original post is excellent. It is too bad that people are easily influenced and form unrealistic expectations based upon internet marketing scams, steroid freaks, and those idiotic muscle mags (which are a combo of marketing scams and steroid freaks).

r2473
02-04-2010, 10:12 AM
http://www.fitforcombatsystem.com/the-benefits-of-big-lifts-arent-so-big/

This article points out a study to debunk the idea that lifting big weights will lead to hypertrophy.

"The effects of the spike of anabolic hormones from intense exercise can have numerous benefits to the body, but increased hypertrophy is not one of them–at least not over the course of 15 weeks under the protocols of this study. A study lasting 52 weeks or several years–the real amount of time it takes for humans to build significant musle–may yield different results."

Not surprising.

1) As Chess said, 15 weeks is a short period of time if hypertrophy is the goal.

But more importantly

2) It doesn't mention in the study if the participants increased their calorie intake. You can lift as much, as heavy, and in any way you want. If you aren't providing your body an adequate caloric surplus, you will not experience hypertrophy (of course there are always exceptions, but generally this is true).

chess9
02-04-2010, 10:17 AM
I doubt I put on that much muscle, though I got a lot stronger. We were estimating body fat in the 1970's with calipers as you may recall. :) I did wear a tight 46 long suit in those days with size 34 pants. ;) Today I wear 32 pants and a 44 long suit. I'm also 174 today.

To be honest, I like being strong, but I prefer being able to run. You need balance, but I'd rather be 150 lbs than 200 lbs!

-Robert

r2473
02-04-2010, 10:50 AM
^^ Wow. You are in great shape!!

charliefedererer
02-04-2010, 11:50 AM
http://www.fitforcombatsystem.com/the-benefits-of-big-lifts-arent-so-big/

This article points out a study to debunk the idea that lifting big weights will lead to hypertrophy.

The article doesn't debunk the idea that lifting big weights will lead to hypertrophy.

Hypertrophy is local phenomenon caused by the localized stress of lifting the weight on that particular muscle, and starting a cascade of local effects that leads to an increase in muscle size.

The idea that it muscle hypertrophy is largely due to a release of systemic hormones has never been seriously considered. (Otherwise, doing a lot of major leg exercise [leg muscles being the largest in your body] would have been expected to lead to overall muscle hypertrophy, including the arms, and clearly this is not the case.

Still, thanks for posting this interesting article.

tricky
02-04-2010, 11:54 AM
The idea that it muscle hypertrophy is largely due to a release of systemic hormones has never been seriously considered.

+1

10 characters

charliefedererer
02-04-2010, 11:56 AM
! (Let me tell you, that Weider Whey Protein made you fat and not much else!)

-Robert

How many drops of whey protein should someone brand new to weight lifting take to supply the protein needed to build their muscle in their early sessions?

mike53
02-04-2010, 01:08 PM
I think I may have missed something here, but what exactly did the researchers measure in their experiment to determine the level of hypertrophy? Did they use a tape and measure external circumference? Did they measure weight? Both? Neither?

chess9
02-04-2010, 04:28 PM
How many drops of whey protein should someone brand new to weight lifting take to supply the protein needed to build their muscle in their early sessions?

You know that is a very controversial area. (Naughty boy!) Supposedly, a maximum of 3 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight is the safe MAXIMUM for long term useage per Berardi. No one needs anything like that. IMHO, a beginner is fine with one to 1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight as a maximum. My buddy who was the world powerlifting champion as a lightweight said all the lifters in the world were eating 2-5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, yet he was only eating 1 gram per pound of bodyweight and lots of carbs. One can only wonder how important protein is in the equation however, when all the lifters in the 1980's were taking supraphysiological doses of steroids! The guy who won was probably the guy who took the largest doses. :)

The short answer is probably that it is best to not overdo the protein shakes as I was doing in the 1970's. Training has improved immensely in the last 30 years, so there's really no reason for guys today to make such stupid mistakes with all the high quality information available. (Just don't read the advertisements! :) ) In the early 1950's when I started training with an expatriat Jewish boxer he believed you had to have steak at least 3 or 4 times a week. Plus, he ate 6 eggs for breakfast every morning! He started his son lifting at age 4. I was 8 when I met his son, then him. :) I really credit both of them for giving me a lifelong interest in being fit and strong. Every child needs a parent like that, particularly today!

-Robert

Djokovicfan4life
02-04-2010, 05:14 PM
You know that is a very controversial area. (Naughty boy!) Supposedly, a maximum of 3 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight is the safe MAXIMUM for long term useage per Berardi. No one needs anything like that. IMHO, a beginner is fine with one to 1.5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight as a maximum. My buddy who was the world powerlifting champion as a lightweight said all the lifters in the world were eating 2-5 grams of protein per pound of bodyweight, yet he was only eating 1 gram per pound of bodyweight and lots of carbs. One can only wonder how important protein is in the equation however, when all the lifters in the 1980's were taking supraphysiological doses of steroids! The guy who won was probably the guy who took the largest doses. :)

The short answer is probably that it is best to not overdo the protein shakes as I was doing in the 1970's. Training has improved immensely in the last 30 years, so there's really no reason for guys today to make such stupid mistakes with all the high quality information available. (Just don't read the advertisements! :) ) In the early 1950's when I started training with an expatriat Jewish boxer he believed you had to have steak at least 3 or 4 times a week. Plus, he ate 6 eggs for breakfast every morning! He started his son lifting at age 4. I was 8 when I met his son, then him. :) I really credit both of them for giving me a lifelong interest in being fit and strong. Every child needs a parent like that, particularly today!

-Robert

I did the six eggs for breakfast 4 days a week, and after a while I just got sick of them. Maybe now I could eat them again and be fine, but it was just unpleasant the last few times I tried it. I do drink 1/2 to a full gallon of milk every day though, so I think I'm doing all right in the protein department.