PDA

View Full Version : Boedekker is a thief, a cheat, and a liar


Ten_nuts
02-12-2010, 06:17 AM
Boedekker sold me 2 faked Wilson KTour 95 racquets. His post says racquets have grip 4 3/8s, but when i received them, they don't have labels the grip sizes. He used the very thick replacement grips on them to cover the handles. I didn't like the replacement grips so i took them off, and they are like 4 1/8s. I popped out the butt caps and they don't have foams inside the handles. Because i used Paypal to pay for the racquets, i filed a dispute before sending the email saying the racquets are faked, and i wanted to return them for refund. He told me he needed some time to investigate. I waited for 2 days and still no response. I escalated to a claim, and he said that I pushed him and didn't respect him. So everything i did was wrong? he told me that i shouldn't file a claim? I waited for 2 days with no response from him and escalated, not enough time because he has a job? Last one, he said that I didn't treat him with repsect? huh? I never used bad language or swear to tallk to him, or i should repsect him for selling me faked racquets? And finally He said that He will use the refund amount to give to a charity or buy himself a new racquet.
So guys, be careful in dealing with this guy. He sold me faked racquets and didn't want to refund but making me feel bad because i pushed him and didn't respect him. His ID is Boedekker. His email is "kirk knott" <knottkirke@yahoo.com>.

vkartikv
02-12-2010, 06:23 AM
Were their weights and balances off too? It would interesting to see the pictures, just out of curiosity, to see how well the paintjob matches the original.
p.s. Charity and treating oneself to a new frame are not the same!

Bud
02-12-2010, 06:31 AM
Boedekker sold me 2 faked Wilson KTour 95 racquets. His post says racquets have grip 4 3/8s, but when i received them, they don't have labels the grip sizes. He used the very thick replacement grips on them to cover the handles. I didn't like the replacement grips so i took them off, and they are like 4 1/8s. I popped out the butt caps and they don't have foams inside the handles. Because i used Paypal to pay for the racquets, i filed a dispute before sending the email saying the racquets are faked, and i wanted to return them for refund. He told me he needed some time to investigate. I waited for 2 days and still no response. I escalated to a claim, and he said that I pushed him and didn't respect him. So everything i did was wrong? he told me that i shouldn't file a claim? I waited for 2 days with no response from him and escalated, not enough time because he has a job? Last one, he said that I didn't treat him with repsect? huh? I never used bad language or swear to tallk to him, or i should repsect him for selling me faked racquets? And finally He said that He will use the refund amount to give to a charity or buy himself a new racquet.
So guys, be careful in dealing with this guy. He sold me faked racquets and didn't want to refund but making me feel bad because i pushed him and didn't respect him. His ID is Boedekker. His email is "kirk knott" <knottkirke@yahoo.com>.

I've not heard of fake Ktour 95's... not a very popular racquet to justify the expense of making and selling fakes.

Second, what number is written on the handle pallets when the grips were removed? Are Ktour 95's even available in grip size 1?

Pleas post some pics of the racquet, the handle pallet (showing the grip size) and inside the butt cap.

vkartikv
02-12-2010, 06:37 AM
I've not heard of fake Ktour 95's... not a very popular racquet to justify the expense of making and selling fakes.

Second, what number is written on the handle pallets when the grips were removed? Are Ktour 95's even available in grip size 1?

Pleas post some pics of the racquet, the handle pallet (showing the grip size) and inside the butt cap.

Only once have I been sold a fake racquet - it was an lm prestige mid back in 2005. It was supposedly a 4 3/8 but felt like even a baby could swing it. Beam widths were way off, no cap grommets, not even the traditional head grip shape. The grip size is the first sign of imminent trouble.

number.432
02-12-2010, 07:11 AM
I've not heard of fake Ktour 95's... not a very popular racquet to justify the expense of making and selling fakes.

Second, what number is written on the handle pallets when the grips were removed? Are Ktour 95's even available in grip size 1?

Pleas post some pics of the racquet, the handle pallet (showing the grip size) and inside the butt cap.


Bud. Fake K tours are floating out there. I'm speaking from my recent experience having bought one. Have to admit that they did a very neat job. They've got weight,balance right. Very neat paintjob as well. What's missing was grip sticker, no code at the butt.

Those sellers who start their items @ 49.99. I think now they change their strategy into selling them as used, like new. Unfortunatley, they all have 99.8 % feedback and up. :confused:

Fortunately, I was able to coax the seller to pay for return shipping and got all my money back. I did leave them a negative feedback reflecting item condition.

SteveI
02-12-2010, 07:47 AM
Boedekker sold me 2 faked Wilson KTour 95 racquets. His post says racquets have grip 4 3/8s, but when i received them, they don't have labels the grip sizes. He used the very thick replacement grips on them to cover the handles. I didn't like the replacement grips so i took them off, and they are like 4 1/8s. I popped out the butt caps and they don't have foams inside the handles. Because i used Paypal to pay for the racquets, i filed a dispute before sending the email saying the racquets are faked, and i wanted to return them for refund. He told me he needed some time to investigate. I waited for 2 days and still no response. I escalated to a claim, and he said that I pushed him and didn't respect him. So everything i did was wrong? he told me that i shouldn't file a claim? I waited for 2 days with no response from him and escalated, not enough time because he has a job? Last one, he said that I didn't treat him with repsect? huh? I never used bad language or swear to tallk to him, or i should repsect him for selling me faked racquets? And finally He said that He will use the refund amount to give to a charity or buy himself a new racquet.
So guys, be careful in dealing with this guy. He sold me faked racquets and didn't want to refund but making me feel bad because i pushed him and didn't respect him. His ID is Boedekker. His email is "kirk knott" <knottkirke@yahoo.com>.

Hi,

Sorry about your problems on this one. His refs look good.. and I am guessing you did intestigate that end of it. It is possible that he is trying to investigate your claim (ie.. check with who he got them from etc..) If you can please post some pics.. or send them to one of our folks that can post them so we can take a look. Is possible that he did not know he had fakes??
I would give the seller a chance to make good.. if he does not go the PayPal claim route. Good luck..

Steve

Fearsome Forehand
02-12-2010, 07:59 AM
The suspected counterfeit racket issue aside, the wrong grip size issue is enough to warrant a full refund by the seller.

Is there a grip size on the grip pallet?

Kirk should have ten_nuts return the rackets for a full refund. That is what will probably happen with the PP claim.

I think this is the original ad:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=4389551

Kirk, it would be smart to simply settle with the buyer and accept the return. Much easier than proving a racket isn't a counterfeit. The incorrect grip size issue alone warrants the return.

And I might suggest to the OP that using defamatory language about the seller isn't the smartest move either. The title of this thread is a bit over the top. Simply post the facts related to the transaction without getting personal. I realize you are upset about the seller's indifferent response to your concerns but I doubt the seller has any knowledge the rackets are fakes, if they are. Calmly pursue a refund via PP and/or your credit card issuer if you paid with a cc. (If PP doesn't come through for you, initiate a chargeback through your cc issuer.)

This is easy. Two reasonable adults should be able to amicably resolve this matter.

Ten_nuts
02-12-2010, 08:38 AM
Thanks for sharing your opinions. I thought i didn't do anything wrong, and i am sure i didn't insult seller, but this guy used everything i did to make me feel bad. I used Paypal to pay for the racquets, and thing went wrong, so i filed a dispute. If you were me, wouldn't you do that? He said he needed sometime to investigate, and i gave him 2 or 3days. I even sent him the pictures of the real racquet's handle comparing his racquets' handles. I didn't hear from him, so i escalated to a claim. He said he would not put his job aside and rush in to respond someone pushy @ss (me i guess). I really didn't know he works all day? He also said that everything i did showing that I didn't respect him? And in conclusion, he hoped that the racquets he sold me are fakes, and he'll use the money i paid to give to a charity or buy himself a new racquet? That sounds cool. I just want to point out that he tried to buy time and used his words to make to me feel like i am bad and he's good. Sorry that i have to state clearly so you guys can see how he responded to get away.

Steve Huff
02-12-2010, 11:27 AM
You did the right thing. By filing a claim, you kept him from cleaning out his Paypal account before the issue was resolved.

meowmix
02-13-2010, 05:32 PM
In my opinion, you acted too hastily to escalate to a claim. Two days is, in my opinion, not sufficient time to fully investigate an issue. If he had no idea the rackets were fake, then investigating would have involved emailing/contacting his seller, and figuring things out from there. IMO, two days without communication is not sufficient time. I generally keep in contact with the person I'm doing a transaction with, and I usually answer/keep in touch on a 12 hour basis, but there have been times where I'm out somewhere and unable to communicate. Two days, IMO, was too hasty.

Finally, can you conclusively prove the rackets were fake? Personally, I'd like to see some pictures. Not that I don't trust you tennuts, but there is the chance that they're not actually fakes.

boedekker
02-13-2010, 10:33 PM
-Bought form certified seller.

-4.5 player who used the sticks for over a month and not fakes.

-Grip was a 4 3/8, not a 4 1/4 or 4 1/8 like he claims.

-Paypal closed the dispute as without merit.

-Was actualy willing to refund Ten Nuts money but after escalated claims, false allegations, and hostile emails (look at title of this thread by ten_nuts) decided why accomadate an ***.

-Check my other references and decide if I'm a scammer in the businees of selling fakes.

-Beware of Ten Nuts, if nothing else have to agree he is "Nuts" all right!

Kot_Bigemot
02-14-2010, 04:31 AM
Thanks for sharing your opinions. I thought i didn't do anything wrong, and i am sure i didn't insult seller, but this guy used everything i did to make me feel bad. I used Paypal to pay for the racquets, and thing went wrong, so i filed a dispute. If you were me, wouldn't you do that? He said he needed sometime to investigate, and i gave him 2 or 3days. I even sent him the pictures of the real racquet's handle comparing his racquets' handles. I didn't hear from him, so i escalated to a claim. He said he would not put his job aside and rush in to respond someone pushy @ss (me i guess). I really didn't know he works all day? He also said that everything i did showing that I didn't respect him? And in conclusion, he hoped that the racquets he sold me are fakes, and he'll use the money i paid to give to a charity or buy himself a new racquet? That sounds cool. I just want to point out that he tried to buy time and used his words to make to me feel like i am bad and he's good. Sorry that i have to state clearly so you guys can see how he responded to get away.
Can you please post some pictures and also email exchange so we see who was rude and who was not?
It is hard to tell - you are saying that he is bad and he is saying that you are bad. That is not gonna get you anywhere. Please provide some proof.
You say he sent you fakes? Please post pictures and show us that racquets are fake.
You said that you never insulted him in emails? Please post email exchange here so we can see.
Same goes for the seller. Do not just say that all is wrong and buyer is nuts - prove it please.
Negative reference here is not a good thing to have if you want to buy/sell on TT. I mean, even if you have 50 positives, people WILL look at that negative and think twice before doing anything. Especially when you are accused of selling fakes. Nobody will want to take chances. I am sure you know what i am talking about.

Ten_nuts
02-14-2010, 06:47 AM
Can someone please let me know how to post pictures in here? I remembered i did it once but i totally forgot. My email is chantran1999 at yahoo dot com. I will post pictures showing the handles. The seller's racquets have handles smaller than 4 3/8 for sure. If racquets were used for only over a months, why don't they have the labels/stickers at the throat indicating the grip sizes? Also no numbers on the pallets showing the handles' sizes, like 3 in this case. Last but not least, the butt caps show that they were opened before so i checked them and there's no foam inside the pallets. Tada.

decades
02-14-2010, 07:00 AM
Boedekker is a thief, a cheat, and a liar

come on, you're just getting warmed up right? :shock:

why does he only have post count of one? I see he made at least 3 posts????

ronalditop
02-14-2010, 07:07 AM
Boedekker is a thief, a cheat, and a liar

come on, you're just getting warmed up right? :shock:

why does he only have post count of one? I see he made at least 3 posts????

Posts on References, odds and ends, and rants and raves forums dont add up to your post count.

Fearsome Forehand
02-14-2010, 08:19 AM
Can someone please let me know how to post pictures in here? I remembered i did it once but i totally forgot. My email is chantran1999 at yahoo dot com. I will post pictures showing the handles. The seller's racquets have handles smaller than 4 3/8 for sure. If racquets were used for only over a months, why don't they have the labels/stickers at the throat indicating the grip sizes? Also no numbers on the pallets showing the handles' sizes, like 3 in this case. Last but not least, the butt caps show that they were opened before so i checked them and there's no foam inside the pallets. Tada.

If you want to post pics of the rackets here, upload them to a service like photobucket or flickr. Then post a link to the uploaded pics URL location within your TW post.

Not sure the absence of a grip sticker (easily removed) and/or the absence of foam inside the pallets proves the rackets are fakes. I have lots of rackets that are genuine that don't have foam inside the handles or grip stickers. There is a difference between suspecting a racket might be counterfeit and proving it is a counterfeit.

Do all genuine Wilson KFactor KTours have foam inside the handles? Anyone know for certain? Maybe the buyer can contact Wilson directly? That would seem to be the definitive source of information about counterfeit Wilson rackets.

There is a post of e bay regarding fake Wilson rackets and some of the ways to tell if a racket is a countefeit.


Also, if someone has a genuine Kfactor KTour in 3/8 grip can you measure the pallet circumference to establish what the pallet should measure without a grip? I know some manufacturer's have bigger, or smaller, grips than one would expect (Estusa for one). Not all 3/8's are created equal. Chan what do the pallets on the rackets in question measure?

I think one of the lessons of this less than happy deal, is not to let one's anger or frustration get the better of you. Stay calm and try to get the seller/buyer to do the right thing by you before getting PP involved and posting negative references with defamatory titles. After that, the other party is going to be much less willing to work out a solution.

I hope for the buyer's benefit someone is able to establish the rackets are not fakes so at least he will have what he payed for. If they are proven to be fakes, then the buyer has a legitimate gripe and the seller should still refund him despite the bickering and ill will.

Found these regarding the 6.1 version, maybe they will help establish authenticity or lack thereof:

http://sites.google.com/site/sixonetour90/Home/an-authentic-k-tour-90

http://sites.google.com/site/sixonetour90/Home/photos-info-on-fake-k-six-one-tour-90

Chan, you can also look at things like weight and balance and see how they compare to the posted Wilson specs. If they are way off, that would indicate a fake.

Topaz
02-14-2010, 08:34 AM
Here is the inside of my kTour:

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k90/topaz720/TWracquet/DSC00228.jpg

Plenty of foam as you can see. And I'm 110 percent certain that mine are genuine.

I have a 4 1/4 grip though, so can't help out there, sorry.

Fearsome Forehand
02-14-2010, 09:06 AM
Topaz, is that pic of a KFactor KTour 95? If not, it doesn't prove very much.

boedekker
02-14-2010, 09:08 AM
Yes was in process of contacting Wilson although stand by sticks as legit and just let it all go when Ten_Nuts had his knee-jerk meltdown. Thought why bother with the guy anymore. Not worth it at that point. Best to all, even you Ten_Nuts.

Topaz
02-14-2010, 09:12 AM
Topaz, is that pic of a KFactor KTour 95? If not, it doesn't prove very much.


Yes it is. Wouldn't have bothered posting it if it wasn't.

Btw, kTour is only offered in 95.

boedekker
02-14-2010, 09:45 AM
Yes, would have refunded out of courtesy regardless if he's just shown a little courtesy.

Cloudy
02-14-2010, 09:46 AM
I'd be interested to see pictures of the rackets actually.

boedekker
02-14-2010, 09:57 AM
He's wrong on the grips. He seems to have stripped them down and is now claiming they're too small but. Absolutley no way they're the size he says with a grip on them. I played with them. Just doesn't add up.

Fearsome Forehand
02-14-2010, 10:01 AM
Yes it is. Wouldn't have bothered posting it if it wasn't.

Btw, kTour is only offered in 95.

Thank you, Topaz. Just wanted to clarify. The absence of foam in the pallets might prove the rackets are counterfeits. I am admittedly not very knowledgeable about Wilson rackets since I play other brands mostly.

Anyone else who owns a KFactor KTour care to help out, pop off the butt cap and see what is there?

Both the seller and the buyer in this case seem like good guys with good references so I would hope if the evidence clearly indicates the rackets are probably fakes, the seller will refund the buyer. I believe the seller had no knowledge that rackets are not authentic, if they are, in fact, fakes. There are some pretty well made counterfeits floating around that would fool most people.

I'm lucky the rackets I like don't have these sorts of counterfeiting issues. What a pain in the neck this must be for both parties.

decades
02-14-2010, 10:07 AM
Yes was in process of contacting Wilson although stand by sticks as legit and just let it all go when Ten_Nuts had his knee-jerk meltdown. Thought why bother with the guy anymore. Not worth it at that point. Best to all, even you Ten_Nuts.

this to me is the wrong attitude to take when the situation remains in flux. It does not matter if he took the grips off to have a look see because it felt small. what matters is what is the STOCK size of the grip?

boedekker
02-14-2010, 10:12 AM
Haven't "lied or thieved" and can prove it regardless of the racquet accusations. That makes what you say libelous and that's no joke Ten_Nuts if I decide to come at you the way you're trying to come at me. Might be wise to chill out and man up a bit sport.

Fearsome Forehand
02-14-2010, 10:15 AM
I think the grip issue, although a legit issue, is much less of an issue than the counterfeit issue. Based on Topaz's racket, one has to strongly suspect the rackets are counterfeits. I would like to hear from a couple of other KFactor KTour owners regarding foam in the handles.

Now that everyone has cooled off (hopefully), maybe the buyer and seller can start anew and work out a refund. That seems to be the sensible solution.

boedekker
02-14-2010, 10:19 AM
No worries, done with the classifieds here. Dealing with guys like Ten_Nuts not worth it. Lesson learned and will be just fine.

Kot_Bigemot
02-14-2010, 10:21 AM
I think the grip issue, although a legit issue, is much less of an issue than the counterfeit issue. Based on Topaz's racket, one has to strongly suspect the rackets are counterfeits. I would like to hear from a couple of other KFactor KTour owners regarding foam in the handles.

Now that everyone has cooled off (hopefully), maybe the buyer and seller can start anew and work out a refund. That seems to be the sensible solution.
True.
And by the way, where is TEN_NUTS? Is he getting all this? Are we gonna see pictures of so called fake racquets?

Azzurri
02-14-2010, 11:37 AM
Yes was in process of contacting Wilson although stand by sticks as legit and just let it all go when Ten_Nuts had his knee-jerk meltdown. Thought why bother with the guy anymore. Not worth it at that point. Best to all, even you Ten_Nuts.

uhh, I think you are acting incorrectly. someone accused you of being a thief, scammer, etc. and while I understand you think he is an "***", you act as if you could care less what the community thinks. FYI I dealt with Tennuts on two seperate occassions and he was terrific to deal with. so the "attitude" you seem to show here says something to me. Not taking sides, just noting you have the wrong "attitude"...you should try to clear your name.

Azzurri
02-14-2010, 11:42 AM
No worries, done with the classifieds here. Dealing with guys like Ten_Nuts not worth it. Lesson learned and will be just fine.

again, wrong attitude.

I may be jumping the gun here, but I have dealt with tennuts a few times and have had communication with him in the past. he is a really good guy. I don't see as a liar, so i believe he got these racquets in said condition. However, he still needs to add the pics, but I believe him. boedekker's attitude is completely wrong and its shows me (and anyone else with half/brain) he seems to fly off the handle and is just someone that is not easy/pleasant to deal with should a situation go wrong.

If this was indeed a case where boedekker was unaware he had "fake" racquets, then he could have fixed the situation. But he seems to have chosen to let tennuts hang out to dry.

boedekker should take the racquets back. PPal is a joke, so who knows what reason they had to take the seller's side...I doubt they know much about knock-off racquets and tennuts had no way to prove it.

bye bye boedekker, seems like you have a bad attitude anyway.

Fearsome Forehand
02-14-2010, 12:35 PM
We should all take note of PP's terrific "buyer protection".

In this case, ten_nuts seems to have purchased a couple of counterfeit Wilsons (at least we suspect they are probably countefeit.) He promptly filed a claim with PP (I assume on significantly not as described/counterfeit grounds) and PP quickly sided with the seller. Once again, PP proves to be not so great.

I am not taking sides as I don't know all the facts, but if I was the seller, and I thought the buyer had a case, (absence of foam in the pallets certainly suggests the rackets might be counterfeit), I would tell the buyer to return the frames with tracking and I will issue a refund on receipt. I wouldn't want to stick someone with rackets that might be fakes. My next move would be to go back to my "certified seller" and ask him WTF the deal is. If the original seller is a legitimate retailer/e-tailer, they have some explaining to do. If boedekker bought these used, off e bay or otherwise, this should serve as a reminder to be extremely careful with buying Wilsons and Babolats as there seems to be many counterfeit rackets floating around.

I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, boedekker would want a refund. A perceived lack of diplomacy or courtesy on the buyer's part doesn't remove the seller's obligation to make things right IMHO.

Again, let's hope cooler heads prevail and these two adults will live up to their past very good references and reach an amicable resolution.

Chan, if all else fails and you paid with a cc, this isn't over yet in terms of non-PP recourse. You can still initiate a chargeback with your cc issuer.

Ten_nuts
02-14-2010, 03:04 PM
I am trying to work with the pictures. Boedekker, you don't have to talk like that the way you come at me, not you or anyone. I care about my feedbacks in here because i respect all people in here. I think the people in here are like me, like to play tennis, like to get good deals in here, and like to return the favors to anyone who is interested in my racquets. If i sold someone a racquet, and if buyer sends me a message saying it's a faked racquet, i will promptly ask him to return for refund and i'd apologize that buyer. That's how i show my respect to buyers, and how i keep my good ref. in here. Boedekker, when you got my email saying that those are fakes, you said you bought them from a wholesaler with good ref., and you needed time to investigate, so i gave you 3 days. Not a word from you, i escalated to a claim. What did you do wrong? You guys can see what i posted at the beginning, and now Boedekker posted that dealing with me not worth it !!!!!! Man, you sold me faked racquets, refused to refund, and now dealing with me not worth it? What a mouthy you are?! You guys can see that?

Ten_nuts
02-14-2010, 03:10 PM
Thank you Fearsome_Forehand, but this time i think i lost 130. I also collect watches, like buying new ones and selling used ones. I sold 2 watches, and my account has more than 3k in there. I didn't use CC to pay for this transaction.

meowmix
02-14-2010, 03:45 PM
I used to use a Wilson n5 in 4 3/8, and I currently have many rackets from other manufacturers on 4 3/8. In my experience, Wilsons tend to feel a little small when compared to Heads and Babolats, and about the same when compared to Princes. Perhaps you are used to Heads or Babs and are feeling the difference?

Ten_nuts
02-14-2010, 07:27 PM
This is the real KTour 95 handle:
http://s836.photobucket.com/albums/zz282/Danny_CT/?action=view&current=AuthenticKTourHandle.jpg

Ten_nuts
02-14-2010, 07:29 PM
And these are from the seller:
http://s836.photobucket.com/albums/zz282/Danny_CT/?action=view&current=FakedKTourHandle.jpg
http://s836.photobucket.com/albums/zz282/Danny_CT/?action=view&current=FakedKTourHandle2.jpg

Ten_nuts
02-14-2010, 07:32 PM
By looking inside the butt caps without foam comparing the one that Topaz posted above, we all can see that they are totally different handles. By the way, thanks, Topaz for showing me how to post pictures. I think i still couldn't get it.

mlamags
02-14-2010, 07:32 PM
Wow, what a mess. I don't side with either party here yet as I can see both sides so far. There are a few things that would make me suspect about both the OP and seller's claims.

As for the OP, first off the title of the thread is harsh. Makes me wonder what language was used when communicating with the seller claiming the racquets were fakes. Honestly, if I didn't know I sold fakes and was accused of doing so, a non-accusatory approach would make all the difference in how I would respond. You have my email, you have my address via PayPal, so you know how to find me should this all be a scam. Plus, it seems the seller has good references here and did eventually get in contact with you. Not necessarily qualities of a thief and a scammer. I also agree that 2 days was a little haste in escalating to a claim via PP. Maybe with a little more time in gathering the facts, the claim would've fallen in the OP's way. Bottom line, why aren't pics posted yet? It's not that hard. Pics of the handle would really clear things up.

As for the seller, I also agree with others that walking away from the forum is a haste move. It's understandable to want to not deal with crap like this anymore when you're so publicly attacked, but walking away doesn't really solve anything either. In the end, it's the seller's choice now whether or not to refund the money. Personally, I'd refund it in a heartbeat. But it seems as for now, without proof of the racquets actually being fakes, the seller's rep will be tarnished here on the boards, if not simply for the title of this thread alone.

I hope it all works out for both parties in the end.

mlamags
02-14-2010, 07:35 PM
Ahhhh ... I see we were posting at the same time, OP. Thanks for sharing the pics. So, does this conclude that they are indeed fakes? I'm not familiar with how to spot a Wilson fake.

Topaz
02-14-2010, 07:41 PM
By looking inside the butt caps without foam comparing the one that Topaz posted above, we all can see that they are totally different handles. By the way, thanks, Topaz for showing me how to post pictures. I think i still couldn't get it.

No problem...I think you just need to put the img tags on it...the img code should be right there on the photobucket page...just copy and paste into your message.

number.432
02-14-2010, 07:55 PM
And these are from the seller:
http://s836.photobucket.com/albums/zz282/Danny_CT/?action=view&current=FakedKTourHandle.jpg
http://s836.photobucket.com/albums/zz282/Danny_CT/?action=view&current=FakedKTourHandle2.jpg

Ahhhh ... I see we were posting at the same time, OP. Thanks for sharing the pics. So, does this conclude that they are indeed fakes? I'm not familiar with how to spot a Wilson fake.


I can't say I'm a Wilson expert. But as far as I'm aware if no grip size sticker, missing 3 letter codes stamped at buttcapp. I'd say most likely it's not real. I'm now looking at some authentic Wilson sticks (similar generation to K Tour) we have here which was bought from authorized dealer in town and all three of them have what you don't seem to have on your sticks.

When I was fudged that time with most likely a fake K tour from the bay it also missed grip size sticker and no codes at buttcapp. I wasn't able to look inside the handle. Had to keep plastic on for return purposes.

So hope this helps somehow.

Fearsome Forehand
02-14-2010, 09:09 PM
It seems like an authentic Kfactor KTour handle is a solid piece of foam. That is fairly common. I have Dunlops and Estusas that are like that. The hollow handle seems more consistent with a fake.

Chan, when you remove the trap door from the butt caps, are there any codes or grip sizes molded into the butt cap where the trap door mates to it? If not, then the rackets are most probably fakes. If real, it should look something like this underneath the trap door:

http://6598922398841486920-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/sixonetour90/Home/an-authentic-k-tour-90/gkw.jpg?attachauth=ANoY7crHBqv7RK6VD3KHv_6oCi6Gax_ KPUdvprn4hPv4rugrgXbjlWqGPIyeU-Dun4Wgstxy3i4xrU8riFgbNYYjRLuscRJCvyuu9n63q9kTcqRV vqczbB7HcK_moU2f8Hv2w7fZUZCrjVWMtQ-6ICmoynfxsg8_iQvj0Q0UKFWJsau2i9KQVlMM3p2BwBuMhFW_0 swnvnkzdC_eXAATeaYw1FwX7StM5ZQ9olVj4XyM-60LgGth1d0%3D&attredirects=0

Have you weighed the rackets? (add the weight of the original stock grip).

You might as well post pics of the whole rackets as there are probably problems with the cosmetics, too. Compare the suspected fakes to a known real KTour cosmetically, do you see any differences?

Are the string patterns, string spacing and grommets identical to a known real KTour?

This is starting to look like these rackets are fakes. I hope boedekker reappears and does the right thing. I think there is enough doubt about the rackets' authenticity that a refund is in order no matter what boedekker thinks of ten_nuts reaction to the problem.

bertrevert
02-15-2010, 12:07 AM
^ As FF shows - under Wilson buttcap is the grip size expressed both as a size and as a fraction.

Specifically under my two KTours it has this measurement, and they are both filled with foam.

ps. I have had the grip off as well and they are just that clean cream colour all the way down of the real one, the fakes (?) look very strange to me.

SteveI
02-15-2010, 02:45 AM
Outside of all the other issues.. I am glad I use a 4 5/8 grip and do not play Wilson frames. What a nightmare the Wilson QC and "fakes" issues are. Give me my underated and unpriced Dunlops anytime. Thanks to all that are helping to police this one. Topaz, FFH..you get the gold stars..

Topaz.. how goes the all the snow?

Regards,
Steve

Topaz
02-15-2010, 05:17 AM
Topaz.. how goes the all the snow?

Regards,
Steve

Our road is *almost* down to the pavement. But other roads are passable, just sometimes missing lanes. Been out and about pretty easily lately, but there is more coming today! :shock: But they are saying only 1-3", and at this point, that's no big deal for us. We're getting snow-hardy! :)

Ten_nuts
02-15-2010, 07:23 AM
This is what the seller just sent me last night, 2-14-2010:
""Understand you're mad about the racquets. You obviously disagree with my assessment of the situation, and that's fine, I get that. But publicly labeling someone a liar and a thief doesn't just make you look over-the-top angry and foolish, it's libelous and a legal transgression becasue it's false and that can easily be proven.

And Even if I am wrong and the racquets are not llegitimate (a claim I still doubt for a number reasons alreadymentioned, I haven't lied to you or stolen from you. It would have happened unkowingly and without any nefarious intent. So might do well to back off it some.

Having a difference of opinion isn't lying. So if you keep it up, I have a clear legal path that I can go down. So up to you if you again want to escalate the situation and face some signicant and typically costly legal consequences.
-Kirk""

All i wanted is returning the racquets and getting refund. I used PP to pay, so i filed a dispute. You needed time to investigate, i gave you 3 days. No response so i escalated to a claim. You called me pushy @ss, no respect for you, and told me to go ahead and post in the TW board and i did. You always say that you ready, willing to refund if i should have done this or that, but you never really wanted to refund. If i don't call you a liar and a thief, what should i call for a guy who sold faked racquets, ripped off buyers, refused to refund for some senseless reasons. Can anyone help me with this? Anyway, i posted this so other nice people in here avoid dealing with you. So you are talking about consequences? I am not going anywhere. Bring it on.

Azzurri
02-15-2010, 07:46 AM
LOL..he has absolutely NO legal grounds. My god...these people that think they know the law. consider the fact the racquets are fakes and he won't accpet them back..you may be able to contact the Internet Fraud division of the FBI and the Mail Fraud division of the Postal Service. If he accepts them..then he has no issues, but he won't, so you do have recourse. PPal is a joke, so don't count on them unless you used a credit card to pay boedekker. I would contact the FBI at this point. he is trying to scare you by claiming defamation..trust me, he has no recourse in that. But go to the FBI website and find the Internet Fraud Division. File a claim against him. You have his personal stuff and since selling fake racquet is fraudulent (since Wilson did not authorize them), you have a case. The least he will have to do is take them back and repay your money.

Azzurri
02-15-2010, 07:51 AM
This is what the seller just sent me last night, 2-14-2010:
""Understand you're mad about the racquets. You obviously disagree with my assessment of the situation, and that's fine, I get that. But publicly labeling someone a liar and a thief doesn't just make you look over-the-top angry and foolish, it's libelous and a legal transgression becasue it's false and that can easily be proven.

And Even if I am wrong and the racquets are not llegitimate (a claim I still doubt for a number reasons alreadymentioned, I haven't lied to you or stolen from you. It would have happened unkowingly and without any nefarious intent. So might do well to back off it some.

Having a difference of opinion isn't lying. So if you keep it up, I have a clear legal path that I can go down. So up to you if you again want to escalate the situation and face some signicant and typically costly legal consequences.
-Kirk""
All i wanted is returning the racquets and getting refund. I used PP to pay, so i filed a dispute. You needed time to investigate, i gave you 3 days. No response so i escalated to a claim. You called me pushy @ss, no respect for you, and told me to go ahead and post in the TW board and i did. You always say that you ready, willing to refund if i should have done this or that, but you never really wanted to refund. If i don't call you a liar and a thief, what should i call for a guy who sold faked racquets, ripped off buyers, refused to refund for some senseless reasons. Can anyone help me with this? Anyway, i posted this so other nice people in here avoid dealing with you. So you are talking about consequences? I am not going anywhere. Bring it on.

this makes me laugh. He won't accept a return, never tried to find out the legitamacy and now he threatens you..what a joke. I stated this earlier, bodekker is obviously a loose cannon (please don't sue me:shock:). No one should deal with this person. Lastly...the "significant and typically costly legal consequences" line is total hoot. Great funny stuff. I would fully explain why this boedekker is a joke, but I want him to FAIL all on his own.

Kot_Bigemot
02-15-2010, 10:26 AM
This is what the seller just sent me last night, 2-14-2010:
""Understand you're mad about the racquets. You obviously disagree with my assessment of the situation, and that's fine, I get that. But publicly labeling someone a liar and a thief doesn't just make you look over-the-top angry and foolish, it's libelous and a legal transgression becasue it's false and that can easily be proven.

And Even if I am wrong and the racquets are not llegitimate (a claim I still doubt for a number reasons alreadymentioned, I haven't lied to you or stolen from you. It would have happened unkowingly and without any nefarious intent. So might do well to back off it some.

Having a difference of opinion isn't lying. So if you keep it up, I have a clear legal path that I can go down. So up to you if you again want to escalate the situation and face some signicant and typically costly legal consequences.
-Kirk""

All i wanted is returning the racquets and getting refund. I used PP to pay, so i filed a dispute. You needed time to investigate, i gave you 3 days. No response so i escalated to a claim. You called me pushy @ss, no respect for you, and told me to go ahead and post in the TW board and i did. You always say that you ready, willing to refund if i should have done this or that, but you never really wanted to refund. If i don't call you a liar and a thief, what should i call for a guy who sold faked racquets, ripped off buyers, refused to refund for some senseless reasons. Can anyone help me with this? Anyway, i posted this so other nice people in here avoid dealing with you. So you are talking about consequences? I am not going anywhere. Bring it on.
Is this guy for real??? WHAT A JOKE!
This B.S. may work with some kid who is in middle school or something but here.....OH, MY GOD!
If i were you TEN_NUTS, i would say - go ahead, file legal action. And when he does not, i'd just bash him on the head.
In fact, i agree with Azzurri 100% - he has absolutely NO legal grounds.
I add him to my "DO NOT DEAL WITH" list.
He has been squiggling about how he would refund and yet, no refund, not even an intention to refund.
WHAT A JOKE!

Bud
02-15-2010, 10:34 AM
LOL..he has absolutely NO legal grounds. My god...these people that think they know the law. consider the fact the racquets are fakes and he won't accpet them back..you may be able to contact the Internet Fraud division of the FBI and the Mail Fraud division of the Postal Service. If he accepts them..then he has no issues, but he won't, so you do have recourse. PPal is a joke, so don't count on them unless you used a credit card to pay boedekker. I would contact the FBI at this point. he is trying to scare you by claiming defamation..trust me, he has no recourse in that. But go to the FBI website and find the Internet Fraud Division. File a claim against him. You have his personal stuff and since selling fake racquet is fraudulent (since Wilson did not authorize them), you have a case. The least he will have to do is take them back and repay your money.

I agree... the racquets are either fake or the handles have been replaced/customized. They appears to be shaved as well. No stock wilson pallets/handles look like that.

Seller should have immediately refunded money for these racquets. In addition, threatening legal action makes seller look foolish.

Fearsome Forehand
02-15-2010, 12:28 PM
I can see both sides. I don't think the seller had any notion the rackets were fakes. Kirk probably bought them on e bay or used somewhere and it never dawned on him they weren't authentic. He sold them to Chan who suspected they were fakes and contacted him.

That is when Kirk/boedekker started to go astray. He should have, at that point, just said Sorry Chan, didn't know they were fakes and agreed to issue a full refund if Chan returned the frames. Instead, Kirk apparently didn't address the matter aggressively and left Chan to wait and worry about whether he was ever going to get a refund. Chan got upset, left a heatedly worded reference which only ****ed off the seller and made him less likely to refund. If Chan had only said he bought some frames from boedekker, suspected they were fakes and boedekker hadn't responded in a few days then I don't think Kirk would have been all that upset. Instead, Chan left the thief, liar, cheat post and, at that point, Kirk adopted a screw you attitude.

However, Kirk still sold Chan suspect/fake rackets (albeit unknowingly). He is still on the hook to refund Chan's money, or he is basically proving the title of this thread to be correct after all. Falsehood proves the libel.

Assuming a refund is issued, perhaps Chan can ask the moderator to alter the title of this thread to something less hostile, something that simply explains what occurred in a factual manner. And maybe Kirk can understand that Chan had concluded he was ignoring his concerns and that is what led to this thread in the first place.

If both parties cool off, Kirk issues a refund, Chan return the rackets to Kirk, then Chan isn't out $130 and Kirk isn't a bad guy who sells fake/suspect rackets and then justifies walking away because the buyer reacts in a manner Kirk deems inappropriate.

I think the consensus among the TW Classified Police Force is that Kirk owes Chan a full refund despite the unfortunate wording of the thread title. If no refund is issued then the thread title rings somewhat true.

Bud
02-15-2010, 12:56 PM
I can see both sides. I don't think the seller had any notion the rackets were fakes. Kirk probably bought them on e bay or used somewhere and it never dawned on him they weren't authentic. He sold them to Chan who suspected they were fakes and contacted him.

That is when Kirk/boedekker started to go astray. He should have, at that point, just said Sorry Chan, didn't know they were fakes and agreed to issue a full refund if Chan returned the frames. Instead, Kirk apparently didn't address the matter aggressively and left Chan to wait and worry about whether he was ever going to get a refund. Chan got upset, left a heatedly worded reference which only ****ed off the seller and made him less likely to refund. If Chan had only said he bought some frames from boedekker, suspected they were fakes and boedekker hadn't responded in a few days then I don't think Kirk would have been all that upset. Instead, Chan left the thief, liar, cheat post and, at that point, Kirk adopted a screw you attitude.

However, Kirk still sold Chan suspect/fake rackets (albeit unknowingly). He is still on the hook to refund Chan's money, or he is basically proving the title of this thread to be correct after all. Falsehood proves the libel.

Assuming a refund is issued, perhaps Chan can ask the moderator to alter the title of this thread to something less hostile, something that simply explains what occurred in a factual manner. And maybe Kirk can understand that Chan had concluded he was ignoring his concerns and that is what led to this thread in the first place.

If both parties cool off, Kirk issues a refund, Chan return the rackets to Kirk, then Chan isn't out $130 and Kirk isn't a bad guy who sells fake/suspect rackets and then justifies walking away because the buyer reacts in a manner Kirk deems inappropriate.

I think the consensus among the TW Classified Police Force is that Kirk owes Chan a full refund despite the unfortunate wording of the thread title. If no refund is issued then the thread title rings somewhat true.

Excellent synopsis! :)

Mdubb23
02-15-2010, 03:43 PM
I can see both sides. I don't think the seller had any notion the rackets were fakes. Kirk probably bought them on e bay or used somewhere and it never dawned on him they weren't authentic. He sold them to Chan who suspected they were fakes and contacted him.

That is when Kirk/boedekker started to go astray. He should have, at that point, just said Sorry Chan, didn't know they were fakes and agreed to issue a full refund if Chan returned the frames. Instead, Kirk apparently didn't address the matter aggressively and left Chan to wait and worry about whether he was ever going to get a refund. Chan got upset, left a heatedly worded reference which only ****ed off the seller and made him less likely to refund. If Chan had only said he bought some frames from boedekker, suspected they were fakes and boedekker hadn't responded in a few days then I don't think Kirk would have been all that upset. Instead, Chan left the thief, liar, cheat post and, at that point, Kirk adopted a screw you attitude.

However, Kirk still sold Chan suspect/fake rackets (albeit unknowingly). He is still on the hook to refund Chan's money, or he is basically proving the title of this thread to be correct after all. Falsehood proves the libel.

Assuming a refund is issued, perhaps Chan can ask the moderator to alter the title of this thread to something less hostile, something that simply explains what occurred in a factual manner. And maybe Kirk can understand that Chan had concluded he was ignoring his concerns and that is what led to this thread in the first place.

If both parties cool off, Kirk issues a refund, Chan return the rackets to Kirk, then Chan isn't out $130 and Kirk isn't a bad guy who sells fake/suspect rackets and then justifies walking away because the buyer reacts in a manner Kirk deems inappropriate.

I think the consensus among the TW Classified Police Force is that Kirk owes Chan a full refund despite the unfortunate wording of the thread title. If no refund is issued then the thread title rings somewhat true.

Very, very well put.

RF15GS
02-15-2010, 08:17 PM
Hi ten_nuts,
So far, no one here was able to confirm your rackets are fake. Bottomline, you need to prove them fake by your own to protect yourself. If you can do that, you will clear yourself and your wording wasn't harsh at all. Try to contact Wilson and send the rackets to them. Then get the certificate of this fake rackets. I will tell you what to do later.

Ten_nuts
02-16-2010, 07:29 AM
Hi RF15GS, and thanks for your opinion. Please let us know who you are. I think those pictures are good enough to say the racquets are fakes. The China copies are pretty much well made with excellent paint job, but the pallets are poorly copied. Needless to say the copied ones are nowhere near the real one's specs. Anyway, i think people here know who is wrong, and i don't need to prove anything like you said. I should try to contact Wilson and send the racquets to them? Do you think Wilson will care to verify whether the racquets are authentic or not and issue a cert? These are used racquets, and they were not bought from any Wilson's authorized dealer. And you will tell me what to do later? Thanks for your help. I lost 130 already. All i wanted to do is posting this to let others know about this seller and be careful when dealing with him. That's it.

Fearsome Forehand
02-16-2010, 07:48 AM
I think Chan has already established the authenticity of the rackets is suspect at best. Since real KTours have foam pallets, rackets that have hollow molded graphite pallets seem like a very queer duck.

Racket manufacturers generally don't mold the grips along with the upper frame. Most players racket have either a separate foam pallet or a pallet system (i.e., Head and Volkl). That way manufacturers don't need different racket molds for each size grip. The addition of the grip size seems to be a a secondary operation. The upper frame is molded and later a foam grip or grip pallet is joined to the frame.

The way the rackets Chan bought from Kirk are made seems like a one size grip fits all methodology; precisely what one would expect from a counterfeiter as doing so reduces manufacturing complexity. (Perhaps that is why they don't bother with grip stickers. Although, I imagine the better counterfeiters slap a grip sticker on the frame for appearance sake.)

Ill will aside, Kirk, if you are still following this thread, I would hope you would do the right thing and agree to refund Chan in return for returning the suspect/counterfeit rackets.

kingdaddy41788
02-16-2010, 08:09 AM
I'm going to have to side with Ten Nuts on this one. Boedekker - regardless of your intent, you've mishandled the situation. That doesn't make you a bad person, but it does make you a bad seller in this case.

Just to clarify though, the absence of a grip size sticker is meaningless. I remove them as soon as I get a racquet - for whatever reason they annoy me to death. Also, the picture of the KSix-One Tour buttcap means nothing. The KTours don't have trap doors if I'm not mistaken, and I've seen ones directly from Wilson that do not have the three letter code either. That being said, the fact that the grips are not foam almost certainly means they're fake - or at least customized to a degree that most people would not want to buy them, or at least should be informed of the customization.

RF15GS
02-16-2010, 08:14 AM
Hi RF15GS, and thanks for your opinion. Please let us know who you are. I think those pictures are good enough to say the racquets are fakes. The China copies are pretty much well made with excellent paint job, but the pallets are poorly copied. Needless to say the copied ones are nowhere near the real one's specs. Anyway, i think people here know who is wrong, and i don't need to prove anything like you said. I should try to contact Wilson and send the racquets to them? Do you think Wilson will care to verify whether the racquets are authentic or not and issue a cert? These are used racquets, and they were not bought from any Wilson's authorized dealer. And you will tell me what to do later? Thanks for your help. I lost 130 already. All i wanted to do is posting this to let others know about this seller and be careful when dealing with him. That's it.

My point is IF you believed the rackets are fake, don't insist to get refund, instead lawfully force seller to refund. Selling fake stuffs in the US is crime.

Fearsome Forehand
02-16-2010, 08:22 AM
I'm going to have to side with Ten Nuts on this one. Boedekker - regardless of your intent, you've mishandled the situation. That doesn't make you a bad person, but it does make you a bad seller in this case.

Just to clarify though, the absence of a grip size sticker is meaningless. I remove them as soon as I get a racquet - for whatever reason they annoy me to death. Also, the picture of the KSix-One Tour buttcap means nothing. The KTours don't have trap doors if I'm not mistaken, and I've seen ones directly from Wilson that do not have the three letter code either. That being said, the fact that the grips are not foam almost certainly means they're fake - or at least customized to a degree that most people would not want to buy them, or at least should be informed of the customization.

Agree about the grip stickers; easily removed. Their absence is more of a "tell" if one is buying a brand new racket, not used as in this case.

The pic of Topaz's KTour indicates they have trap doors and at least the grip size molded into the lip of the trap door. Not sure if they have a manufacturing code like the 6.1's. Topaz's KTour butt cap appears to have a three letter code molded in to it.

I think even the seller would have to admit the rackets are probably counterfeits. But, Chan wrongly insulted Kirk or so he feels; thus, no refund yet.

Since when do two wrongs make a right? I hope these guys can work it out.

kingdaddy41788
02-16-2010, 08:30 AM
Agree about the grip stickers; easily removed. Their absence is more of a "tell" if one is buying a brand new racket, not used as in this case.

The pic of Topaz's KTour indicates they have trap doors and at least the grip size molded into the lip of the trap door. Not sure if they have a manufacturing code like the 6.1's. Topaz's KTour butt cap appears to have a three letter code molded in to it.

I think even the seller would have to admit the rackets are probably counterfeits. But, Chan wrongly insulted Kirk or so he feels; thus, no refund yet.

Since when do two wrongs make a right? I hope these guys can work it out.

Fair enough. I may also be thinking of the nTour-Two, or I could be wrong altogether. It's happened before. I was just relatively sure that I'd seen some without a trap door. At the very least, I'm pretty certain that Wilson does vary the butt cap of their racquets as a whole in that some have trap doors and some do not.

Azzurri
02-16-2010, 04:08 PM
Hi ten_nuts,
So far, no one here was able to confirm your rackets are fake. Bottomline, you need to prove them fake by your own to protect yourself. If you can do that, you will clear yourself and your wording wasn't harsh at all. Try to contact Wilson and send the rackets to them. Then get the certificate of this fake rackets. I will tell you what to do later.

racquets are fakes. those are not Wislon handles.

Joeyg
02-16-2010, 06:12 PM
Azzuri,

He claims they are Wilsons. These others you mention must be a new brand.

Alex75
02-17-2010, 12:17 AM
definitely fake (http://reviews.****.co.uk/Fake-Wilson-K-Factor-KSix-One-Tour-90-tennis-rackets-A_W0QQugidZ10000000011178106)...

kimbahpnam
02-17-2010, 01:13 AM
They're fake. Look at the pallets with the ironed-on chinese labels. Though real Wilson racquets may be made in China...they don't have those labels.

base615
02-17-2010, 01:50 AM
The seller doesn't have a leg to stand on IMO and should resolve this now.

Would I have dealt with it a bit more diplomatically than the OP? Sure, but feeling insulted is no reason to say "stuff you then, I'll just keep your money". That IS theft pure and simple.

RF15GS
02-17-2010, 08:47 AM
My point is IF you believed the rackets are fake, don't insist to get refund, instead lawfully force seller to refund. Selling fake stuffs in the US is crime.

http://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/my-husband-was-selling-at-a-flea-market-items-in-w-55936.html

http://www.crimlawla.com/lawyer-attorney-1341347.html?gclid=COjllJ33-Z8CFQkcawodWj6oWg

Bud
02-17-2010, 09:43 AM
Biography: 4.5 lifelong tennis player. Grew up in Texas and taught tennis @ local club through college.
Location: Lexington, KY
Interests: tennis, hiking, biking, travel, reading, college football
Occupation: college counselor/psychology instructor

- - - - - - - - - -

Sad this guy is teaching our kids...

RF15GS
02-17-2010, 09:53 AM
Biography: 4.5 lifelong tennis player. Grew up in Texas and taught tennis @ local club through college.
Location: Lexington, KY
Interests: tennis, hiking, biking, travel, reading, college football
Occupation: college counselor/psychology instructor

- - - - - - - - - -

Sad this guy is teaching our kids...

R u kiddin, Bud? Counselor, psychology... If so, I'll find out his school soon then. I have bunch of friends there, a neighbor of Dallas. I went there few years ago.

RF15GS
02-17-2010, 09:55 AM
R u kiddin, Bud? Counselor, psychology... If so, I'll find out his school soon then. I have bunch of friends there, a neighbor of Dallas. I went there few years ago.

Sorry it's not the one in TX.

PrinceMoron
02-17-2010, 02:01 PM
If you want to post pics of the rackets here, upload them to a service like photobucket or flickr. Then post a link to the uploaded pics URL location within your TW post.

Not sure the absence of a grip sticker (easily removed) and/or the absence of foam inside the pallets proves the rackets are fakes. I have lots of rackets that are genuine that don't have foam inside the handles or grip stickers. There is a difference between suspecting a racket might be counterfeit and proving it is a counterfeit.

Do all genuine Wilson KFactor KTours have foam inside the handles? Anyone know for certain? Maybe the buyer can contact Wilson directly? That would seem to be the definitive source of information about counterfeit Wilson rackets.

There is a post of e bay regarding fake Wilson rackets and some of the ways to tell if a racket is a countefeit.


Also, if someone has a genuine Kfactor KTour in 3/8 grip can you measure the pallet circumference to establish what the pallet should measure without a grip? I know some manufacturer's have bigger, or smaller, grips than one would expect (Estusa for one). Not all 3/8's are created equal. Chan what do the pallets on the rackets in question measure?

I think one of the lessons of this less than happy deal, is not to let one's anger or frustration get the better of you. Stay calm and try to get the seller/buyer to do the right thing by you before getting PP involved and posting negative references with defamatory titles. After that, the other party is going to be much less willing to work out a solution.

I hope for the buyer's benefit someone is able to establish the rackets are not fakes so at least he will have what he payed for. If they are proven to be fakes, then the buyer has a legitimate gripe and the seller should still refund him despite the bickering and ill will.

Found these regarding the 6.1 version, maybe they will help establish authenticity or lack thereof:

http://sites.google.com/site/sixonetour90/Home/an-authentic-k-tour-90

http://sites.google.com/site/sixonetour90/Home/photos-info-on-fake-k-six-one-tour-90

Chan, you can also look at things like weight and balance and see how they compare to the posted Wilson specs. If they are way off, that would indicate a fake. That is my website and no it won't help I am afraid!

decades
02-17-2010, 02:11 PM
This is what the seller just sent me last night, 2-14-2010:
""Understand you're mad about the racquets. You obviously disagree with my assessment of the situation, and that's fine, I get that. But publicly labeling someone a liar and a thief doesn't just make you look over-the-top angry and foolish, it's libelous and a legal transgression becasue it's false and that can easily be proven.

And Even if I am wrong and the racquets are not llegitimate (a claim I still doubt for a number reasons alreadymentioned, I haven't lied to you or stolen from you. It would have happened unkowingly and without any nefarious intent. So might do well to back off it some.

Having a difference of opinion isn't lying. So if you keep it up, I have a clear legal path that I can go down. So up to you if you again want to escalate the situation and face some signicant and typically costly legal consequences.
-Kirk""

All i wanted is returning the racquets and getting refund. I used PP to pay, so i filed a dispute. You needed time to investigate, i gave you 3 days. No response so i escalated to a claim. You called me pushy @ss, no respect for you, and told me to go ahead and post in the TW board and i did. You always say that you ready, willing to refund if i should have done this or that, but you never really wanted to refund. If i don't call you a liar and a thief, what should i call for a guy who sold faked racquets, ripped off buyers, refused to refund for some senseless reasons. Can anyone help me with this? Anyway, i posted this so other nice people in here avoid dealing with you. So you are talking about consequences? I am not going anywhere. Bring it on.


this guy is kicking up dust and stalling. It's very simple. Give the money back and send the fakes back. Very simple. But I wonder why it's not so cut and dried for the seller?

decades
02-17-2010, 02:20 PM
Hi ten_nuts,
So far, no one here was able to confirm your rackets are fake. Bottomline, you need to prove them fake by your own to protect yourself. If you can do that, you will clear yourself and your wording wasn't harsh at all. Try to contact Wilson and send the rackets to them. Then get the certificate of this fake rackets. I will tell you what to do later.

umm no....wilson could care less about this. it's not Wilson't problem. It's the Sellers.

Azzurri
02-17-2010, 04:56 PM
Azzuri,

He claims they are Wilsons. These others you mention must be a new brand.

Wislon's are higher in quality control.:)

PrinceMoron
02-18-2010, 04:46 AM
this guy is kicking up dust and stalling. It's very simple. Give the money back and send the fakes back. Very simple. But I wonder why it's not so cut and dried for the seller?If the rackets are fake then they don't belong to the seller, or the buyer, they belong to the rightsholder - Amer Sports. They are the only ones the rackets should be sent to.

Despite the name, Amer Sports are Danish owned. If you have seen how the Danes can turn a pig into streaky bacon, then you know you don't want to mess with them.....

bsandy
02-18-2010, 06:12 AM
Die thread DIE

RF15GS
02-18-2010, 08:31 AM
http://legacy.bluegrass.kctcs.edu/bsd/sdc/sdc_faculty/

http://www.whitepages.com/search/FindPerson?firstname=Kirk&name=Knott&where=Lexington%2C+KY

Kot_Bigemot
02-18-2010, 05:39 PM
Die thread DIE
So, is seller issuing a refund to buyer?
Or is seller going to get on TT "Black List"?
If no refund issued, regardless of buyer's behavior, i put seller on "Black List".

kingdaddy41788
02-18-2010, 05:45 PM
Wislon's are higher in quality control.:)

Sadly, probably so...

kingdaddy41788
02-18-2010, 05:47 PM
That is my website and no it won't help I am afraid!

Hmm? Why not?

Ten_nuts
02-18-2010, 08:16 PM
Thank you all for your helps and your opinions. Seller's never wanted to refund. Peace!!!

Bud
02-18-2010, 09:53 PM
Thank you all for your helps and your opinions. Seller's never wanted to refund. Peace!!!

Well, the seller's a thief, cheat and liar as you stated in your thread title. It appears you hit the nail on the head.

No one will deal with the dirtbag and hopefully he'll never show his face or push his counterfeit wares on TT ever again.

Kot_Bigemot
02-19-2010, 03:38 AM
Well, the seller's a thief, cheat and liar as you stated in your thread title. It appears you hit the nail on the head.

No one will deal with the dirtbag and hopefully he'll never show his face or push his counterfeit wares on TT ever again.
And this guy is a college counselor/psychology instructor?
SAD...

SteveI
02-19-2010, 03:40 AM
Thank you all for your helps and your opinions. Seller's never wanted to refund. Peace!!!

Whats the status of this deal? Are you still trying to collect via PayPal?

Thanks..

SteveI
02-19-2010, 03:48 AM
We should all take note of PP's terrific "buyer protection".

In this case, ten_nuts seems to have purchased a couple of counterfeit Wilsons (at least we suspect they are probably countefeit.) He promptly filed a claim with PP (I assume on significantly not as described/counterfeit grounds) and PP quickly sided with the seller. Once again, PP proves to be not so great.

I am not taking sides as I don't know all the facts, but if I was the seller, and I thought the buyer had a case, (absence of foam in the pallets certainly suggests the rackets might be counterfeit), I would tell the buyer to return the frames with tracking and I will issue a refund on receipt. I wouldn't want to stick someone with rackets that might be fakes. My next move would be to go back to my "certified seller" and ask him WTF the deal is. If the original seller is a legitimate retailer/e-tailer, they have some explaining to do. If boedekker bought these used, off e bay or otherwise, this should serve as a reminder to be extremely careful with buying Wilsons and Babolats as there seems to be many counterfeit rackets floating around.

I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, boedekker would want a refund. A perceived lack of diplomacy or courtesy on the buyer's part doesn't remove the seller's obligation to make things right IMHO.

Again, let's hope cooler heads prevail and these two adults will live up to their past very good references and reach an amicable resolution.

Chan, if all else fails and you paid with a cc, this isn't over yet in terms of non-PP recourse. You can still initiate a chargeback with your cc issuer.

Hi FFH,

I am interested in what PP will do in this case... as I have been in this sort on mess once. I hope the buyer used a CC. There are of course other things the buyer can do to try and recover, if indeed these are fakes. I am guessing like you that the seller got the items and did not know they were fakes until now. Things got a bit heated on both sides.. and here we are. I also hope both sides come to an "amicable resolution".

Regards,
Steve

schap02
02-19-2010, 05:42 AM
Yes was in process of contacting Wilson although stand by sticks as legit and just let it all go when Ten_Nuts had his knee-jerk meltdown. Thought why bother with the guy anymore. Not worth it at that point. Best to all, even you Ten_Nuts.


Bo - Haven't dealt with you before and obviously don't hold opinions as to who is right or wrong here but I did want to comment on this statement. If you sell something - whether it is on a board or in a store/work ect...and someone accuses you of selling fake items - there is never a time where you should "give up" - regardless of how the buyer is reacting...you owe it to yourself to prove your innocence and in the end if you find out the racquets are fake - you just admit that whoever you purchased them from problably got them fake from someone else, apologize and move on...Like I said I'm in no way - shape - or form choosing sides but if I sell something and someone feels it is not as described I feel obligated to set the record straight. On this message board I think you'll gain way more respect if you own up to whatever happened instead of reacting the way your post describes.

SteveI
02-19-2010, 06:48 AM
Bo - Haven't dealt with you before and obviously don't hold opinions as to who is right or wrong here but I did want to comment on this statement. If you sell something - whether it is on a board or in a store/work ect...and someone accuses you of selling fake items - there is never a time where you should "give up" - regardless of how the buyer is reacting...you owe it to yourself to prove your innocence and in the end if you find out the racquets are fake - you just admit that whoever you purchased them from problably got them fake from someone else, apologize and move on...Like I said I'm in no way - shape - or form choosing sides but if I sell something and someone feels it is not as described I feel obligated to set the record straight. On this message board I think you'll gain way more respect if you own up to whatever happened instead of reacting the way your post describes.

Bo....

Have to agree with schap02. Have to Man Up and take your lumps. You can decide to do so... or take what might be coming your way.

In my case.. if you sold me fakes and decided to just ignore me.. I would take action in this order:

1) Go the PP route and my credit card company.
2) If the frame were shipped to me via USPS.. I would for sure File a Claim with the Post Master General's office for Mail Fraud
3) I would also File a Claim with FBI's Internet Fraud Div.
4) I would make sure those Federal offices knew where you worked and where you lived. The on-line process only takes a few minutes and really is easy for the user..and really bad for the folks that are suspected of fraud.
5) If I was working someplace that is connected with the Federal Goverment or you need "Clearance" to work there... this would not be good for you.


These are all the things one might do to help recover a loss.

Of course you did not sell me these frames and this is just for educational purposes.

Have a good one!!!

RF15GS
02-19-2010, 08:32 AM
Thank you all for your helps and your opinions. Seller's never wanted to refund. Peace!!!

Just keep up with paypal. They will definitely HAVE TO solve this. Escalation takes some time.
If i were you, I'll send the whole story to his fellows as provided on my previous post.

Bud
02-19-2010, 10:46 AM
Bo - Haven't dealt with you before and obviously don't hold opinions as to who is right or wrong here but I did want to comment on this statement. If you sell something - whether it is on a board or in a store/work ect...and someone accuses you of selling fake items - there is never a time where you should "give up" - regardless of how the buyer is reacting...you owe it to yourself to prove your innocence and in the end if you find out the racquets are fake - you just admit that whoever you purchased them from problably got them fake from someone else, apologize and move on...Like I said I'm in no way - shape - or form choosing sides but if I sell something and someone feels it is not as described I feel obligated to set the record straight. On this message board I think you'll gain way more respect if you own up to whatever happened instead of reacting the way your post describes.

He took the easy (i.e. coward's) way out by blaming the victim... after said victim called him names (which turned out to be completely accurate). Now, the seller feels justified in his actions of ripping off the buyer.

Bottom line is seller is a creep and a dirtbag just like buyer stated in the thread title.

If it were me who got ripped off by this seller, I'd research where seller lives and works and email all his associates at his place of employment. That's the only way you stop these guys and get justice.

Kot_Bigemot
02-19-2010, 10:52 AM
He took the easy (i.e. coward's) way out by blaming the victim... after said victim called him names (which turned out to be completely accurate). Now, the seller feels justified in his actions of ripping off the buyer.

Bottom line is seller is a creep and a dirtbag just like buyer stated in the thread title.

If it were me who got ripped off by this seller, I'd research where seller lives and works and email all his associates at his place of employment. That's the only way you stop these guys and get justice.
I agree. That is the only way to get their attention or to get them to refund.
I would also contact local PD,they will forward you to FBI because internet fraud is handled by FBI.
At this point it is not about the money. Since seller clearly refused to refund, i would just try to make his life as uncomfortable as i can. Let his coworkers know about this, let his friends know what he did, call his boss and tell him how he behaves outside of work. I mean, if i was to loose the money - i would at least try to have some fun. Just to get my money's worth, you know what i mean :twisted:

Kot_Bigemot
02-19-2010, 12:17 PM
Hey guys.
I just had a pleasure exchanging emails with Boedekker.
What a dirtbag. He started with a clear threat of legal action. Funny guy.
But, overall his email showed me that he is afraid of any action on this matter.

JoelDali
02-19-2010, 12:45 PM
Dude you are publicly threatening to m e n n a c e and stalk.

Relax, take a chill pill. Its not worth it.

Kot_Bigemot
02-19-2010, 12:47 PM
Dude you are publicly threatening to ****** and stalk.

Relax, take a chill pill. Its not worth it.
Oh, come on! I was just having some fun.
Besides, i got the advice already. SO, we will have some more fun.
But you are right about one thing - not worth the time.

Tina
02-19-2010, 01:48 PM
Delete Post

Dino Lagaffe
02-19-2010, 01:58 PM
Just a sidenote: Maybe it's a Freudian slip of mind, but every time I see the title of this thread I read:

Brooklyn Decker is a thief, a cheat, and a liar...

Bud
02-19-2010, 02:10 PM
Hey guys.
I just had a pleasure exchanging emails with Boedekker.
What a dirtbag. He started with a clear threat of legal action. Funny guy.
But, overall his email showed me that he is afraid of any action on this matter.

Please post the email threat he sent you.

Dude you are publicly threatening to m e n n a c e and stalk.

Relax, take a chill pill. Its not worth it.

I disagree. This whole thing can be done if/when he refunds the money he stole from the seller, selling counterfeit goods.

- - - - -

This proves Boedekker is still following this thread regarless of his 'threat' to leave the boards.

Bud
02-19-2010, 02:10 PM
Please delete seller's personal information at TTW. It's his privacy. Please share this information with the buyer privately. I will delete this message after you delete sell's personal information. Thanks. -Tina

His 'personal information' is freely available in his profile, genius :-?

Beside that, there is no personal information since no one has stated the thief's real name (yet).

PrinceMoron
02-19-2010, 02:15 PM
Hmm? Why not?Because it is a "site" on K90s and I know nothing about 95s, Teams or any other racket Wilson make other than K88s.

Do other Wilsons have hollow handles? I have no idea or even know what they are supposed to look like. Do they come with covers? Single card insert, red dot, text on bumper guard etc etc? Life is too short I am afraid

Bud
02-19-2010, 02:17 PM
Because it is a "site" on K90s and I know nothing about 95s, Teams or any other racket Wilson make other than K88s.

Do other Wilsons have hollow handles? I have no idea or even know what they are supposed to look like. Do they come with covers? Single card insert, red dot, text on bumper guard etc etc? Life is too short I am afraid

It does seem obvious from the pics that these are not genuine Wilson frames. A quick look at the handle pallet system is all that's required. I've customized a number of K racquets (90, 88, KPT, etc.) and they all have foam inside the handles. I know this because I had to carve out small areas in which to 'seat' the lead counterweights.

It's really a shame that a member of this community would blatantly rip off another member, like this.

Real KTour (thanks Topaz):

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k90/topaz720/TWracquet/DSC00228.jpg


Seller's KTours:

http://i836.photobucket.com/albums/zz282/Danny_CT/FakedKTourHandle2.jpg

PrinceMoron
02-19-2010, 02:43 PM
[QUOTE=Bud;4414008]It does seem obvious from the pics that these are not genuine Wilson frames. A quick look at the handle pallet system is all that's required. I've customized a number of K racquets (90, 88, KPT, etc.) and they all have foam inside the handles. I know this because I had to carve out small areas in which to 'seat' the lead counterweights.

It's really a shame that a member of this community would blatantly rip off another member, like this.
QUOTE]

Don't know what the law says over there, but here in the UK buyers only have to show in the balance of probabilities that a racket is fake, they don't have to actually prove it. Just the fact that the seller can't provide a receipt from an authorised dealer means they will lose the case.

Might be worth dropping a line to sipi@amersports.com - they monitor all listing of Wilson goods on the net. Just tell them the URL.

If it were a UK seller I would contact Customs Confidential so that a seller of fakes get pulled up at immigration when they fly back from their hols and is given the rubber glove treatment. Kind of poetic justice for someone selling rackets with a hollow butt...........

Kot_Bigemot
02-19-2010, 02:53 PM
Here you go Bud.

His response to me:

Wouldn’t matter, the posted complaint is out of line, and I’m not in the wrong. But you might want to wise up and reconsider. It would constitute attempted blackmail as well as liable in light of this email, which are both serious legal offenses, and it wouldn’t take much to trace back and find out who you are.

I’m losing my patience, and if you break the law and bother my employer, I have the resources and will come after you legally and with success. You’re crossing a line, and I don’t appreciate being blackmailed.

Kirk

Tina
02-19-2010, 02:57 PM
His 'personal information' is freely available in his profile, genius :-?

Beside that, there is no personal information since no one has stated the thief's real name (yet).

In that case.. Hey, Bud. You are a really nice person. Have a great evening! -Tina
PS. I deleted that post.

Kot_Bigemot
02-19-2010, 02:59 PM
In that case.. Hey, Bud. You are a really nice person. Have a great evening! -Tina
Oh, so polite and sweet...and yet, sounds so poisonous. But they say poison IS sweet...

Bud
02-19-2010, 03:07 PM
In that case.. Hey, Bud. You are a really nice person. Have a great evening! -Tina
PS. I deleted that post.

Love you too! :)

BTW, never been accused of being nice, here :twisted:... I just treat others as I wish to be treated.

Azzurri
02-19-2010, 03:14 PM
Here you go Bud.

His response to me:

Wouldnít matter, the posted complaint is out of line, and Iím not in the wrong. But you might want to wise up and reconsider. It would constitute attempted blackmail as well as liable in light of this email, which are both serious legal offenses, and it wouldnít take much to trace back and find out who you are.

Iím losing my patience, and if you break the law and bother my employer, I have the resources and will come after you legally and with success. Youíre crossing a line, and I donít appreciate being blackmailed.

Kirk

LOL...this guy is too much. while I don't know what his employer would do, it is certainly not breaking the law. If his employers asks not to be contacted again, and the person does, this would constitute harrassement..but one, initial contact would not "break the law" is this complete tool thinks.

boedekker, ...you are very clueless as to the law. But here is what I will do since you are a complete tool. My father is a retired Post Master. He still has his "connections" and I already spoke to him and his current replacement (I know the guy personally). I was instructed on what information I need and will as Ten_nuts to contact me. Unless you can prove where you purchased the racquets and prove authenticity, then you have an issue. They deal with this stuff all the time because of e b a y. He also noted contacting the FBI will definetly be handled...unlike the BBB they have power.

Ten_nuts...contact me.

Kot_Bigemot
02-19-2010, 03:17 PM
LOL...this guy is too much. while I don't know what his employer would do, it is certainly not breaking the law. If his employers asks not to be contacted again, and the person does, this would constitute harrassement..but one, initial contact would not "break the law" is this complete tool thinks.

boedekker, ...you are very clueless as to the law. But here is what I will do since you are a complete tool. My father is a retired Post Master. He still has his "connections" and I already spoke to him and his current replacement (I know the guy personally). I was instructed on what information I need and will as Ten_nuts to contact me. Unless you can prove where you purchased the racquets and prove authenticity, then you have an issue. They deal with this stuff all the time because of e b a y. He also noted contacting the FBI will definetly be handled...unlike the BBB they have power.

Ten_nuts...contact me.
Yeah man, he does sound like a total tool, does not he?

all3ofus
02-19-2010, 04:54 PM
Here you go Bud.

His response to me:

Wouldnít matter, the posted complaint is out of line, and Iím not in the wrong. But you might want to wise up and reconsider. It would constitute attempted blackmail as well as liable in light of this email, which are both serious legal offenses, and it wouldnít take much to trace back and find out who you are.

Iím losing my patience, and if you break the law and bother my employer, I have the resources and will come after you legally and with success. Youíre crossing a line, and I donít appreciate being blackmailed.

Kirk


If he has the resources as he says, then what's the heck is 130.00 to the guy if "he has the resources"
LMAO

Bud
02-19-2010, 08:51 PM
If he has the resources as he says, then what's the heck is 130.00 to the guy if "he has the resources"
LMAO

Agreed... stupid.

He should do the right thing and simply refund the money for the fake frames.

SteveI
02-20-2010, 01:28 AM
Agreed... stupid.

He should do the right thing and simply refund the money for the fake frames.

Yuppers...just do the right thing

RF15GS
02-20-2010, 08:37 AM
Here you go Bud.

His response to me:

Wouldnít matter, the posted complaint is out of line, and Iím not in the wrong. But you might want to wise up and reconsider. It would constitute attempted blackmail as well as liable in light of this email, which are both serious legal offenses, and it wouldnít take much to trace back and find out who you are.

Iím losing my patience, and if you break the law and bother my employer, I have the resources and will come after you legally and with success. Youíre crossing a line, and I donít appreciate being blackmailed.

Kirk

"My cousin's classmate partially copied his homework and turned in. Nothing ... big deal! Well, school found out later and both of them had to see Dean of student, go home write an essay, describing acknowledgement of consequences and future avoidance. Later, they will have to attend 3 3-hour seminars about academic misconduct."
Sometime people think a very minor violation should never be caught BUT once it get caught, horrible consequences would never be expected. B. Kirt, if I was you, get the F of $130 back to him and live in peace.

RF15GS
02-21-2010, 08:48 AM
LOL...this guy is too much. while I don't know what his employer would do, it is certainly not breaking the law. If his employers asks not to be contacted again, and the person does, this would constitute harrassement..but one, initial contact would not "break the law" is this complete tool thinks.

boedekker, ...you are very clueless as to the law. But here is what I will do since you are a complete tool. My father is a retired Post Master. He still has his "connections" and I already spoke to him and his current replacement (I know the guy personally). I was instructed on what information I need and will as Ten_nuts to contact me. Unless you can prove where you purchased the racquets and prove authenticity, then you have an issue. They deal with this stuff all the time because of e b a y. He also noted contacting the FBI will definetly be handled...unlike the BBB they have power.

Ten_nuts...contact me.

Did you contact Azzurri?

Kot_Bigemot
02-21-2010, 10:17 AM
Agreed... stupid.

He should do the right thing and simply refund the money for the fake frames.
Well, looks like he is going to refund soon. I hope he does.
I replied to his email(see below) and got an answer yesterday. Here is the copy:
Michael,

Perhaps I do have the wrong legal term, but itís my understanding that threatening to send negative information, and hearsay at that, to someoneís employer in an attempt to coerce payment of any kind opens one up to civil liability at the very least.

And publicly calling someone a ďliar, thiefĒ in writing when they havenít lied or stolen anything is libel by my understanding.

Iím sorry you and your friend are so upset. As I responded to Chan early on, have a credible third-party source like Pay Pal or Wilson Racquet Sports provide me with some credible proof that the rackets are not authentic (my research and experience with the racquets indicate otherwise), and I will provide a full refund despite the escalated claims, false accusations of intent, inflammatory reference posts, and now attempted threats to my work.

But otherwise, Iím done with this and should you or Chan persist on this course, I will turn it over to my attorney for assessment and action.

Sincerely,

Kirk Knott

kingdaddy41788
02-21-2010, 10:25 AM
Well, looks like he is going to refund soon. I hope he does.
I replied to his email(see below) and got an answer yesterday. Here is the copy:
Michael,

Perhaps I do have the wrong legal term, but itís my understanding that threatening to send negative information, and hearsay at that, to someoneís employer in an attempt to coerce payment of any kind opens one up to civil liability at the very least.

And publicly calling someone a ďliar, thiefĒ in writing when they havenít lied or stolen anything is libel by my understanding.

Iím sorry you and your friend are so upset. As I responded to Chan early on, have a credible third-party source like Pay Pal or Wilson Racquet Sports provide me with some credible proof that the rackets are not authentic (my research and experience with the racquets indicate otherwise), and I will provide a full refund despite the escalated claims, false accusations of intent, inflammatory reference posts, and now attempted threats to my work.

But otherwise, Iím done with this and should you or Chan persist on this course, I will turn it over to my attorney for assessment and action.

Sincerely,

Kirk Knott

It doesn't sound to me as though he intends to refund the money. It sounds to me as though he intends to continue to try to weasel out of it (based on what we've heard (or read for that matter). He has about 15 third-party sources (most with comparisons to actual kTours or with a wealth of racquet experience/knowledge) saying the racquets are fake, and that's not good enough.

Kot_Bigemot
02-21-2010, 10:29 AM
It doesn't sound to me as though he intends to refund the money. It sounds to me as though he intends to continue to try to weasel out of it (based on what we've heard (or read for that matter). He has about 15 third-party sources (most with comparisons to actual kTours or with a wealth of racquet experience/knowledge) saying the racquets are fake, and that's not good enough.
Read both of his emails - the guy is pure dooshbag. Too bad he did not sell them to me. I would have been all over it by now - his local PD, FBI and his employer. He would have been drawn in his own *****.
And he is just picking on a kid. How nice.
I'll bet you, if it was an adult dealing with him, he would have refunded by now.

RF15GS
02-21-2010, 11:33 AM
Read both of his emails - the guy is pure dooshbag. Too bad he did not sell them to me. I would have been all over it by now - his local PD, FBI and his employer. He would have been drawn in his own *****.
And he is just picking on a kid. How nice.
I'll bet you, if it was an adult dealing with him, he would have refunded by now.

To Kot_Bigemot:
Did you mean Ten_nuts is a kid?

To K. Knott:
Counterfeit rackets >>> Threatening > publicly calling "thief, liar"
IMO, prolonging this post will not benifit you. Will a hold of $130 be worth it for your efforts to defend yourself.

Kot_Bigemot
02-21-2010, 11:48 AM
To Kot_Bigemot:
Did you mean Ten_nuts is a kid?

Yes. Is he not?

RF15GS
02-21-2010, 11:54 AM
Yes. Is he not?

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/member.php?u=13692
And based on his references on racket collection, I don't think he's a kid.

PrinceMoron
02-21-2010, 01:12 PM
I have tried wading through all these messages, but could someone tell me if anyone from Amer Sports has actually confirmed the rackets in question are fake?

Would one of the 2 parties please contact the Chicago office of Wilson - that is where the department for chasing fakes is located.

Would someone please email sipi@amersports.in - that is the company that Amer Sports use to monitor all web listings of Wilson goods. You only need to give the URL of the listing, where the photos are and they will email you back. It is not that hard.

There seems to be a lot of legalese floating around here. Could someone just confirm whether the buyer has prove the rackets are fake to get a court to decide in his favour? Here in the UK buyers don't have to prove anything, just show in the balance of probability that the rackets are fake. EG if the seller does not have a receipt from an authorised Wilson dealer, then the court will find in the claimant's favour.

PayPal will refund if the item is "significantly not as described" eg it weighs less than it should, notwithstanding the maunfacturing tolerance of +/- 7g. So if the weight is wrong, the seller can reject it for a full refund of purchase price and all postage costs. That is without going down the road of showing the racket is fake.

If the item is deemed to be fake, then the seller is entitled to the full RRP of the rackets, or replacements. He does not have to accept a refund.

The rackets if fake belong to the rightsholder so should not be returned to the seller. They should be sent to Amer Sports.

My thoughts on the whole matter, for what they are worth, is that the vast majority of sellers of fake rackets are unaware that they are selling fakes. They are often guilty of parallel importing goods, avoiding taxes, or naively believing a wholesaler's story that the rackets are "OEM". I have written to several hundred buyers and sellers of wilson rackets on the bay since 2007, so I have seen both sides of the story.

The biggest loser is usually the seller, who should leave selling rackets to authorised dealers. Sellers put themselves at risk of a jail term for selling items that may be counterfeit and may cause injury and damage that they do not have insurance cover to protect themselves from.

In the UK sellers of fake goods are liable for 7 years. I appreciate the problems are more likely to arise from selling fake brake pads than sporting goods. However if someone damages their arm using a fake and can't work for 3 months, the costs could be quite high.

Most sellers don't even take the obvious precaution of recording the barcode of the racket they sell. I could buy a genuine racket, then claim the seller sold me a fake which I had actually got from a Chinese wholesaler. The seller would end up losing the racket.

RF15GS
02-21-2010, 01:32 PM
I have tried wading through all these messages, but could someone tell me if anyone from Amer Sports has actually confirmed the rackets in question are fake?

Would one of the 2 parties please contact the Chicago office of Wilson - that is where the department for chasing fakes is located.

Would someone please email sipi@amersports.in - that is the company that Amer Sports use to monitor all web listings of Wilson goods. You only need to give the URL of the listing, where the photos are and they will email you back. It is not that hard.

There seems to be a lot of legalese floating around here. Could someone just confirm whether the buyer has prove the rackets are fake to get a court to decide in his favour? Here in the UK buyers don't have to prove anything, just show in the balance of probability that the rackets are fake. EG if the seller does not have a receipt from an authorised Wilson dealer, then the court will find in the claimant's favour.

PayPal will refund if the item is "significantly not as described" eg it weighs less than it should, notwithstanding the maunfacturing tolerance of +/- 7g. So if the weight is wrong, the seller can reject it for a full refund of purchase price and all postage costs. That is without going down the road of showing the racket is fake.

If the item is deemed to be fake, then the seller is entitled to the full RRP of the rackets, or replacements. He does not have to accept a refund.

The rackets if fake belong to the rightsholder so should not be returned to the seller. They should be sent to Amer Sports.

My thoughts on the whole matter, for what they are worth, is that the vast majority of sellers of fake rackets are unaware that they are selling fakes. They are often guilty of parallel importing goods, avoiding taxes, or naively believing a wholesaler's story that the rackets are "OEM". I have written to several hundred buyers and sellers of wilson rackets on the bay since 2007, so I have seen both sides of the story.

The biggest loser is usually the seller, who should leave selling rackets to authorised dealers. Sellers put themselves at risk of a jail term for selling items that may be counterfeit and may cause injury and damage that they do not have insurance cover to protect themselves from.

In the UK sellers of fake goods are liable for 7 years. I appreciate the problems are more likely to arise from selling fake brake pads than sporting goods. However if someone damages their arm using a fake and can't work for 3 months, the costs could be quite high.

Most sellers don't even take the obvious precaution of recording the barcode of the racket they sell. I could buy a genuine racket, then claim the seller sold me a fake which I had actually got from a Chinese wholesaler. The seller would end up losing the racket.

That's what I told Ten_nuts earlier. Wilson will do it, actually to increase their sale of authentic rackets. This matter will be resolved sooner or later depending on Ten_nuts, no one esle can help you on this. You already had the contact info. What r u waiting for?

Ten_nuts
02-21-2010, 02:44 PM
Hi all, and thanks for all your information. I did go to Wilson website in North America and used ask questions to send my story. I am waiting for their response. Also thank to PrinceMoron for providing the email. I'll send them as well the faked racquets' info.

RF15GS
02-21-2010, 02:56 PM
Hi all, and thanks for all your information. I did go to Wilson website in North America and used ask questions to send my story. I am waiting for their response. Also thank to PrinceMoron for providing the email. I'll send them as well the faked racquets' info.

Hi Ten_nuts,
Hope you'll get your refund soon before making any more effort for proving them counterfeit.

Fearsome Forehand
02-21-2010, 03:08 PM
The suspected counterfeit rackets' one size fits all hollow molded graphite grip is the most telling flaw to me. Compared to the pic Topaz posted of the same KTour model with the sized foam grip, the rackets purchased from Kirk Knott / Boedekker are all but certain fakes. (See posts #17 and #37).

The rackets Chan bought don't even seem like particularly good counterfeits. The better made counterfeits are all but indistinguishable from the real ones. That isn't the case in this instance. These rackets look fake to almost everyone who has taken an interest in this thread.

Why is it necessary to make Chan go through hoops to prove the rackets are fakes. Look at the damn pictures, Kirk. What does your big brain tell you based on the pictures? Absolute fakes? Probable fakes? Either way, it adds up to a refund, doesn't it? Why make Chan go through all this crappola with Wilson and PP when you can just take the rackets back, give him a refund and be done with it? How about you prove they are not fakes? Good luck with that mission. Why does the entire burden of proof fall entirely upon Chan when it seem apparent the rackets are counterfeits?

Kirk, Chan has a case. The guy has done a lot of deals here. He is a reasonable person. He just doesn't take it well when someone sells him rackets that have all the tell tale signs of fakes and then tells him to wait around for the results of the seller's investigation. F that. Refund the guy and investigate later. If the rackets turn out to be genuine (unlikely), you can resell them to someone else. If they are fakes, then you have a beef with whomever sold them to you. Why should Chan have to eat $130 because you unwittingly bought fake rackets from someone? Is that fair in your book?

Unfortunately, Kirk Knott is being stubborn about this matter. For $130, it wouldn't be worth the grief to me, nor would I want to screw over a guy who did a deal with me in good faith. Regardless of whether Kirk feels ten_nuts reacted badly and libeled him unnecessarily, the mere fact that the rackets are very suspect should have resulted in an immediate refund. Any other outcome is just plain wrong. Kirk either doesn't get that fact or doesn't want to get it. I was neutral on this dispute initially but based on what I've seen in this thread, I think Kirk should change his name to Dick.

Kirk(May I call you Dick?), you've got a whole group of objective people here telling you in no uncertain terms that you are wrong in this case and to issue a refund. Maybe you should take the hint. Your objection to the thread title no longer has any basis. What would you call someone who sells suspected counterfeit rackets to another TWer and then walks away from the deal as if nothing is wrong? If I sold you counterfeit rackets, even suspected counterfeits, you would be all over my ***** if I didn't issue a prompt refund. You might even sick your infamous team of lawyers on me.

Chan, can you appeal the Paypal decision? How did Paypal leave the matter once they disallowed your initial dispute? I assume the basis of your dispute was item(s) substantially not as represented as opposed to item(s) not received? (If not, it should have been.) Seems like yet another arbitrary PP decision. I am surprised PP didn't tell you to return the rackets to Kirk and then PP would grant a refund once the return delivery had been verified. I guess PP couldn't stand to lose the $ 4 fee they made on the $130 deal if it was undone.

It seems that anyone here who is buying used, recent edition Wilson, Babolat or Head players rackets better make damn sure they know how to spot a counterfeit since there are so many in circulation. Ask for pictures of the racket with the grip and butt cap removed for one thing.

RF15GS
02-21-2010, 03:24 PM
The suspected counterfeit rackets' one size fits all hollow molded graphite grip is the most telling flaw to me. Compared to the pic Topaz posted of the same KTour model with the sized foam grip, the rackets purchased from Kirk Knott / Boedekker are all but certain fakes.

Unfortunately, Kirk Knott is being stubborn about this matter. For $130, it wouldn't be worth the grief to me, nor would I want to screw over a guy who did a deal with me in good faith. Regardless of whether Kirk feels ten_nuts reacted badly and libeled him unnecessarily, the mere fact that the rackets are very suspect should have resulted in an immediate refund. Any other outcome is just plain wrong. Kirk either doesn't get that fact or doesn't want to get it. Kirk should change his name to Dick.

Chan, can you appeal the Paypal decision? How did Paypal leave the matter once they disallowed your initial dispute? I assume the basis of your dispute was item(s) substantially not as represented as opposed to item(s) not received? (If not, it should have been.) Seems like yet another arbitrary PP decision. I am surprised PP didn't tell you to return the rackets to Kirk and then PP would grant a refund once the return delivery had been verified. I guess PP couldn't stand to lose the $ 4 fee they made on the $130 deal if it was undone.

It seems that anyone here who is buying used Wilson, Babolat or Head players rackets better make damn sure they know how to spot a counterfeit since there are so many in circulation. Ask for pictures of the racket with the grip and butt cap removed for one thing.

"...doesn't want to get it..."

SteveI
02-21-2010, 03:53 PM
The suspected counterfeit rackets' one size fits all hollow molded graphite grip is the most telling flaw to me. Compared to the pic Topaz posted of the same KTour model with the sized foam grip, the rackets purchased from Kirk Knott / Boedekker are all but certain fakes. (See posts #17 and #37)

Unfortunately, Kirk Knott is being stubborn about this matter. For $130, it wouldn't be worth the grief to me, nor would I want to screw over a guy who did a deal with me in good faith. Regardless of whether Kirk feels ten_nuts reacted badly and libeled him unnecessarily, the mere fact that the rackets are very suspect should have resulted in an immediate refund. Any other outcome is just plain wrong. Kirk either doesn't get that fact or doesn't want to get it. I was neutral on this dispute initially but based on what I've seen in this thread, I think Kirk should change his name to Dick.

Kirk, you've got a whole group of objective people here telling you in no uncertain terms that you are wrong in this case and to issue a refund. Maybe you should take the hint. Your objection to the thread title no longer has any basis. What would you call someone who sells counterfeit rackets to another TWer and then walks away from the deal as if nothing is wrong? If I sold you counterfeit rackets, even suspected counterfeits, you would be all over my ***** if I didn't issue a prompt refund. You might even sick you infamous team of lawyers on me.

Chan, can you appeal the Paypal decision? How did Paypal leave the matter once they disallowed your initial dispute? I assume the basis of your dispute was item(s) substantially not as represented as opposed to item(s) not received? (If not, it should have been.) Seems like yet another arbitrary PP decision. I am surprised PP didn't tell you to return the rackets to Kirk and then PP would grant a refund once the return delivery had been verified. I guess PP couldn't stand to lose the $ 4 fee they made on the $130 deal if it was undone.

It seems that anyone here who is buying used Wilson, Babolat or Head players rackets better make damn sure they know how to spot a counterfeit since there are so many in circulation. Ask for pictures of the racket with the grip and butt cap removed for one thing.

Hello All,

I have been thur this once with PayPal. I had a seller send me a frame with a cracked handle and went the dispute PayPal route. They would not help. They do not help when you get an item and it is not correct (faked, damaged, not what you ordered) unless you are doing a "bay" deal. I remember their e-mail like it was yesterday. If you were to get nothing in your deal they will indeed step it and take action, "bay" or not. So much for PayPal protection... hummmmm.

As I had stated before.. time for the buyer to take action and get serious. I would be making this guy's life a living h... right now. Call his home phone... his boss... file claims with the local Police, FBI, USPS. No more Mr. Nice guy.. that ship has sailed.

Kirk Knott...better Man Up.. now. Give the guy back his $130.00.. take the loss. You will find that you may lose much more.. and sooner than you think. You should be happy that you did not do this deal with me...

Fearsome Forehand
02-21-2010, 04:41 PM
If all else fails, Chan can sue Paypal and Dick Knott in small claims court. Might be fun.

Picture Chan holding a real KTour (marked Exhibit A) and the Dick Knott Autograph Model KTour (marked Exhibit B.)

Perry Mason theme playing in the background off Chan's boom box.

"Your Honor" says Chan addressing Judge Fakir Pallet, "you can clearly see the vast differences in the rackets handles. Dick Knott's stubborn refusal to issue a refund and Paypal's failure to intervene on my behalf in this matter is not only wrong, it is un-American. And I, for one, am not going to stand here and allow Paypal and Dick Knott to spit on the American flag!" (By this point Chan's boom box has shifted to playing the National Anthem.)

http://paypalsucks.com/SuePayPal-1.shtml

SteveI
02-21-2010, 05:07 PM
If all else fails, Chan can sue Paypal in small claims court. Might be fun.

Picture Chan holding a real KTour (marked Exhibit A) and the Dick Knott Autograph Model KTour (marked Exhibit B.)

Perry Mason theme playing in the background off Chan's boom box.

"Your Honor" says Chan, "you can clearly see the vast differences in the rackets handles. Paypal's stubborn refusal to act on my behalf in this matter is not only wrong, it is un-American. And I, for one, am not going to stand here and allow Paypal to spit on the American flag" (By this point Chan's boom box has shifted to playing the National Anthem.)

http://paypalsucks.com/SuePayPal-1.shtml

One should take a quick view of the above site..

RF15GS
02-21-2010, 06:25 PM
The case is getting larger and larger. I don't see any cue that Chan can't get refund. As one of possibilities, if if if & if pp can't get refund for Chan, they are really imp:(tent. PP, if you are reading this entire thread, you should realize what you should do. Majority is always right. By now there were more than 4500 viewers on this thread. Here is the evidence.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/search.php?searchid=7454639

PrinceMoron
02-21-2010, 10:56 PM
Hi all, and thanks for all your information. I did go to Wilson website in North America and used ask questions to send my story. I am waiting for their response. Also thank to PrinceMoron for providing the email. I'll send them as well the faked racquets' info.

You also should contact Wilson/Amer Sports Chicago and give them the frame number on the hologram and also the barcode if you have it. It is important as many fakers just use the same label for different frames. I stood next to the Wilson sales rep in a store and listened in as he rang HQ to check out a K90 for me, which turned out to have the label for an NCode 90.

The lady who helps me out at sipi is Shelpa. They are even more helpful if you ring.

PrinceMoron
02-22-2010, 01:12 PM
Hopefully you will get a response like this, from a K90 I flagged up as fake:

http://sites.google.com/site/sixonetour90/****-april-2009-4/mail.gif

****
e*ay
eb*y
eba*

RF15GS
02-23-2010, 08:28 AM
Any update, Chan?

RF15GS
02-25-2010, 09:29 PM
Any update, Chan?

It seemed to be safe to sell counterfeit rackes in America! Check my sale post for my used rackets. I am not sure if they are...

Fearsome Forehand
03-19-2010, 01:22 PM
Chan, what happened with this? Did Wilson confirm the rackets are counterfeit? Did the seller ever agree to take the rackets back? What was the outcome?

Ten_nuts
03-19-2010, 09:04 PM
Hi my friends, and i am very sorry that i didn't follow up with this any sooner. The Wilson said that the handles of these racquets don't look right. They told me to send the racquets in and they will confirm that, and i have to pay all the shipping cost and returning cost too. I thought if i send these in and they would confirm these racquets are fakes, and so? Seller's never tried to contact me since the last one about using the laws with me. So it will end up nothing better, and therefore i decided to drop it. But one thing that is very important to tell all of you in here: if you buy racquets in here or buy anything and you will use P@y pal to pay, always use P@y pal's credit card or use your personal credit card so later on, if anything goes wrong, you can always charge back or get protection. Never use the fund that you have in your p@y pal account, because if anything goes wrong and you call in to talk to what they called p@y pal expert, you will hear something like: "we are sorry. There's nothing we can do about it, even though you claimed that they are fakes. We know you paid for something and you did receive them, but we don't deal with fakes or not fakes...". So again thank you so much for all your info and your helps. Let's end it here. Peace!!!!

Kot_Bigemot
03-20-2010, 03:38 AM
Hi my friends, and i am very sorry that i didn't follow up with this any sooner. The Wilson said that the handles of these racquets don't look right. They told me to send the racquets in and they will confirm that, and i have to pay all the shipping cost and returning cost too. I thought if i send these in and they would confirm these racquets are fakes, and so? Seller's never tried to contact me since the last one about using the laws with me. So it will end up nothing better, and therefore i decided to drop it. But one thing that is very important to tell all of you in here: if you buy racquets in here or buy anything and you will use P@y pal to pay, always use P@y pal's credit card or use your personal credit card so later on, if anything goes wrong, you can always charge back or get protection. Never use the fund that you have in your p@y pal account, because if anything goes wrong and you call in to talk to what they called p@y pal expert, you will hear something like: "we are sorry. There's nothing we can do about it, even though you claimed that they are fakes. We know you paid for something and you did receive them, but we don't deal with fakes or not fakes...". So again thank you so much for all your info and your helps. Let's end it here. Peace!!!!
So, the name of the threat is actually right. Boedekker IS a thief, a cheat, and a liar.
Hope all TT community know by now not to deal with that d0uchebag.
And he post something for sale, please post link to this threat.

Bud
03-20-2010, 02:13 PM
So, the name of the threat is actually right. Boedekker IS a thief, a cheat, and a liar.
Hope all TT community know by now not to deal with that d0uchebag.
And he post something for sale, please post link to this threat.


I'll certainly never deal with him.

decades
03-20-2010, 02:48 PM
I am sorry you went to further additional expense just to confirm what many here had already told you: they were fake. Also, the very fact that the seller disappeared and did not offer to take the rackets back suggested the same. I really feel for you and am sorry you were a victim of a liar thief and cheat. In the future and for others on the board, I think it's best to cut your losses before losing even more money.