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Progressive10s
05-04-2005, 11:44 AM
Every year, the British are hoping for a Henman Wimbledon victory, but he made the Roland Garros semis last year and he just beat Nicholas Massu on clay in the Italian Open. I cannot figure it out?????

daniel_rst
05-04-2005, 11:53 AM
Yes, and he beat Kuerten the round before, which I find delightfully ironic given than a certain "gugafanatic" pronounced Henman a failure on these very boards not long ago.

alfa164164
05-04-2005, 11:57 AM
Yes, where is gugafanatic now that the "untalented" Henman has dispatched of his clay court genius. Injury excuses forthcoming.............

splink779
05-04-2005, 11:58 AM
Yes a good win over Massu, but I would say the defeat of Guga does not count as a great victory over a clay specialist.

Feņa14
05-04-2005, 12:09 PM
Henman has to be my favourite player on clay to watch, the way he just goes about executing his tactics is outstanding, often hitting several deep groundstrokes and finishing it with finesse at the net... it's quite beautiful.

VamosRafa
05-04-2005, 01:21 PM
The commentators noted that Tim lucked out with his draw playing two players coming off injury who aren't match tough. I didn't watch his first match, but as I said in another thread, Massu did not play well. He's just 1-3 on the year, coming into this tourney.

Jonnyf
05-04-2005, 01:34 PM
vamos rafael nothing against you at all (stupid commentators)
But i feel that everyone does tim down (including lots of Brits) he's no 7 in the world he can beat anyone on good day look at his win-loss v federer etc.

henman 6-4 Fed
henman 2-3 safin
henman 3-2 roddick

larrhall
05-04-2005, 01:37 PM
Henman is built for clay. He's in great shape, plays focused in difficult conditions (as I saw at IW against Melzer), plays percentage tennis, can hit a good kick, and conserves his energy. I think he also does it by refusing to accept the label of a fast-court player. He made two IW finals consecutively, on one of the slower hard courts in the pro game.

Add to this the fact that he has a nice, dependable slice backhand - always nice on clay - and he can of course finish a long rally with a nice volley. Probably helps as well in energy conversation, especially given that some of his behind-the-baseline opponents never would think of coming to net, and thus guarantee that they will stress their overly muscled clay court legs.

Also, Tim is smart...

Feņa14
05-04-2005, 01:39 PM
Yep, you can argue with the results.

Henman beat Massu and Guga on clay, they are still great claycourters with outstanding pedigree.

Henman hasn't really played on clay since last years RG, his 2nd tournament back and these are his victims?

Give credit where credit is due.

Craig Sheppard
05-04-2005, 01:40 PM
I'm a Henmaniac... He's got such a clean game I like watching it so much. Commentators were saying that when Annacone took over, he told Tim that he could do really well on clay because he's a natural athlete and the clay guys haven't seen a game like his before. They said Tim was shocked to hear it but then bought into it and began liking the clay. I tend to agree--look at how he plays them. He bangs a few shots then hits a deep or heavy angle approach and is right there to put away a volley. None of this 15 shot side to side stuff--he's neat and tidy.

TwistServe
05-04-2005, 01:56 PM
Massu isn't the same since his injury... Nalbandian, Moya, and Ferrero are also not the same. They've been losing to sub tier1 players on clay so I don't beleive Henman's win says anything.

HenmanFan
05-04-2005, 02:17 PM
Sometimes people just don't give credit where it's due. I'm pretty sure that if Federer (whom I am also a fan of) had beaten both Guga and Massu at Rome that there would be some big thread with a title to the likes of: "Federer Takes out 2 Clay Masters!" It would then go on to explain that since Federer has taken out these two clay specialists (Guga and Massu) that he is a shoe-in to win the French, and it wouldn't mention Guga's injuries and whatnot. Injured or not, match-ready or not, both Guga and Massu were AT Rome playing on their surface and Henman beat them both. Give the guy some credit. I'm not saying that Henman is at Coria's level on clay, but it's still impressive that a S&V player can take out 2 well known clay specialists on the surface. Do people on this board just not like to see Timmy win? I think he deserves praise for sticking to his game on a surface that doesn't really suit his game AND still taking it to some other players. Go Tim!

Marius_Hancu
05-04-2005, 02:37 PM
I think these are good results for him.
Now let's see him with Hrabaty.
As Hrbaty played this year, betting on Tim.

TwistServe
05-04-2005, 02:50 PM
Sometimes people just don't give credit where it's due. I'm pretty sure that if Federer (whom I am also a fan of) had beaten both Guga and Massu at Rome that there would be some big thread with a title to the likes of: "Federer Takes out 2 Clay Masters!" It would then go on to explain that since Federer has taken out these two clay specialists (Guga and Massu) that he is a shoe-in to win the French, and it wouldn't mention Guga's injuries and whatnot. Injured or not, match-ready or not, both Guga and Massu were AT Rome playing on their surface and Henman beat them both. Give the guy some credit. I'm not saying that Henman is at Coria's level on clay, but it's still impressive that a S&V player can take out 2 well known clay specialists on the surface. Do people on this board just not like to see Timmy win? I think he deserves praise for sticking to his game on a surface that doesn't really suit his game AND still taking it to some other players. Go Tim!

Haha... what has Guga and Massu done this year except for early round exists in all their touraments.. You're funny.. Yes they were once clay masters but tell me what GUGA and MASSU have done this year? Who have they beaten that is noteworthy?

Feņa14
05-04-2005, 02:57 PM
Haha... what has Guga and Massu done this year except for early round exists in all their touraments.. You're funny.. Yes they were once clay masters but tell me what GUGA and MASSU have done this year? Who have they beaten that is noteworthy?

erm... whats your point?

Their season starts here! the Clay season has just started... you don't expect them to go deep at the Australian Open!

Another point, what has Henman done this year? he has not won many matches so he is in the same boat as them and he beat them on a surface that they are outstanding on!

I know you don't like to see Henman doing well but when he does, please acknowledge it :)

VamosRafa
05-04-2005, 03:04 PM
I think the wins are great for Tim. He did play well today, but the guy on the other side of the net did not play well, making things easier for Tim.

The question was whether he's back to his former Roland Garros form, and that is what I was trying to address. I don't think these wins show that he's at that level. But credit to him, both guys can be dangerous, and Tim's form is definitely better than theirs. I didn't mean to question that. Now whether he can beat other players in the draw remains to be seen.

TwistServe
05-04-2005, 03:11 PM
erm... whats your point?

Their season starts here! the Clay season has just started... you don't expect them to go deep at the Australian Open!

Another point, what has Henman done this year? he has not won many matches so he is in the same boat as them and he beat them on a surface that they are outstanding on!

I know you don't like to see Henman doing well but when he does, please acknowledge it :)

My point is Henman did nothing special.. Albert martin beat Guga in valencia too.. why don't we start writing threads about "how does Marktin do it"..

Mario Ancic beat Guga too.. lets start another thread: "how does Ancic do it"..

Anthony Dupuis beat Massu and bageled him too.. lets start another thread: "how does Dupuis do it"..

yes all the matches i mentioned were on clay.

TwistServe
05-04-2005, 03:13 PM
I think the wins are great for Tim. He did play well today, but the guy on the other side of the net did not play well, making things easier for Tim.

The question was whether he's back to his former Roland Garros form, and that is what I was trying to address. I don't think these wins show that he's at that level. But credit to him, both guys can be dangerous, and Tim's form is definitely better than theirs. I didn't mean to question that. Now whether he can beat other players in the draw remains to be seen.

Yes the wins are nice, but they proved nothing. When he beats a nadal, gaudio, etc.. then i'll send my personal congraduations! Not saying henman can't beat them.. im saying henman hasn't proved himself to be anything special yet, and doesn't deserve a "how does he do it" thread.. not yet

gugafanatic
05-04-2005, 03:50 PM
Yes, and he beat Kuerten the round before, which I find delightfully ironic given than a certain "gugafanatic" pronounced Henman a failure on these very boards not long ago.


Henman is recieving attention for two very mediocre victories. This was the first top 10 player, both Guga and Massu played this year and are clearly not in any match winning rhytham. Henman has not achieved any major sucess, infact Massu has even proved himself on the highest stage at the Olympics. For such a high profile player, Tim Henman has failed consistently at the highest level. Guaranteed, he will always stuggle against a clean striker of the ball from the back of the court e.g Canas, Davydenko, Grosjean, Costa e.t.c. Henman rarely plays any big names, as he usually gets bundled out in the 4th rd or quarters by players who can execute passing shots consistenly.

splink779
05-04-2005, 03:53 PM
I think the simple fact that Henman is a S&V player who beats clay courters and normal players on clay is getting lost here.

VamosRafa
05-04-2005, 04:04 PM
I think the simple fact that Henman is a S&V player who beats clay courters and normal players on clay is getting lost here.

Perhaps, but the claycourters also post good results on hardcourts at times.

All credit to Tim, don't get me wrong. But he has played two guys who are struggling to win a match, let alone a tournament.

Misiti99
05-04-2005, 04:15 PM
Massu and Guga have had awful results this year and are hurt..BOTTOM LINE
however
Timmy made the semis of RG last year..making him a favorite this year. He can really pose a threat if he has the right draw...Just as much as Federer can...The fact that Tim doesn't have huge strokes helps him..he's Steady..which is what needed not to mention a good head..and great volleys.....
the Favorites for me would look like this (for RG):
1. Rafael Nadal
2. Gaston Gaudio
3. roger fed
4. Guillermo Coria
5. JCF
6. Tim Henman
7. Andre Agassi

I dont see why Roddick cant make the Quarters..I think the field is weak right now

that's it..who else can win it

larrhall
05-04-2005, 04:21 PM
I am completely mystified that Tim Henman in general does not get the credit he deserves. Well - not completely mystified: the opposition - and that's the right word - to him seems to derive from Britain. All the Fred Perry hangover stuff, combined with the loss of Empire, maybe that does it. The anti-Tim stuff seems to radiate from there...

Excuse me, this guy does consistently well on clay, and made the SFs of the French Open. He has done very well in some other Majors, like the US Open last year. He can play different styles, is a true all-courter (not really a S-V player; I think Rafter was the last true S/V player, at least in the Top 5 or 10).

Henman has 'grown his game' after injuries and slumps, after problems with his serve, etc. Guga Kuerten has been out, yes, but I guarantee that if he wins four matches in a row at Hamburg the masses will predict he'll win RG.

Henman is a clean, smart, strategic player with very good strokes and the capacity to weather all sorts of match conditions and ebbs and flows. If you're a tennis fan, appreciate his game. It may be a long time before another player comes along who can play well on essentially four different surfaces (assuming Melbourne is not really 'hard court'). Thanks.

DashaandSafin
05-04-2005, 04:26 PM
Here we go again Henman has no sucess? 4-3 Henman carrer head to head...now 5-3. DOnt tell me ohh those were hard courts i dont care. The fact is wheter your hurt or not the love of gugafanatics life lost to a serve and volleyer...on clay!

gugafanatic
05-04-2005, 04:26 PM
Misti you are being irrational, remember the draw at RG is not comparable to masters event in terms of number of players. Their will be soo many dangerous floaters at RG, that could easily upset any one of the seeds. Furthermore I cant see Henman beating: Gasquet, Verdasco, Martin, Ferrer, Zabaleta, all who are likely to be unseeded and have better clay-court pedgree then Henman. Henman has always stuggled throughout hes career to get past the 4th rd at the FO, then all of sudden on the wrong side of twenty he makes the semis??. This can clearly be attributed to a remarkably easy draw, but this year with soo many great players at RG he is never going to be one of the top 10 faviorites.

Kaptain Karl
05-04-2005, 04:38 PM
A definite "double standard" is evident on this thread. When Coria, Rafa or Guga win matches on hard courts all our dirtballer friends on TW really praise these "off surface wins."

Henman does the same thing -- a couple years in a row -- and it's "nothing special."

- KK

VamosRafa
05-04-2005, 05:09 PM
A definite "double standard" is evident on this thread. When Coria, Rafa or Guga win matches on hard courts all our dirtballer friends on TW really praise these "off surface wins."

Henman does the same thing -- a couple years in a row -- and it's "nothing special."

- KK

Do they? Didn't realize it. I've thought that dirtballer wins were treated as an anomoly, having a cushy draw or whatever. That certainly was said of Nadal's run to the final in Miami. And his win over Roger last year in Miami was blamed on Roger's sunstroke. But for purposes of this thread, I'll take your word for it.

But let me again say Tim did well. No question. But that doesn't mean he can hang with the in-form dirtballers. He played two guys who are struggling to win matches on their favorite surface. And it's very possible that if they faced someone other than Tim, they may have won.

So all credit to Tim, as I've said for the third or fourth time. But I don't consider him the Roma favorite -- at least not yet.

And I think part of this is because I've watched lots of matches over the past couple days. Sorry to rub this in, but TTC plays and replays 10 hours of coverage, and I've seen many players. Tim did well, but he's not the most impressive, IMO. But that could change, for sure.

Noelle
05-04-2005, 05:43 PM
*sigh*

Go Timmy!

Progressive10s
05-04-2005, 09:22 PM
I remember one commentator saying that Tim did not have the weapons to really hurt his opponent on hardcourts, and I tend to agree. He is not going to serve 20 aces in a match like a Roddick or Dent, nor does he have a dominating groundstroke. He plays consistent, percentage tennis and maybe that's why he did so well at Paris last year, but winning Roland Garros would be almost too much to ask.

Feņa14
05-05-2005, 10:52 AM
Henman has always stuggled throughout hes career to get past the 4th rd at the FO, then all of sudden on the wrong side of twenty he makes the semis??. This can clearly be attributed to a remarkably easy draw.

And that was his fault?

You can only beat the players that are put against you. Tim absolutely destroyed Chela, a clay court specialist who was in supreme form and ranked just outside the top 15, I also seem to remember he took a set of Coria and was so very close to taking it to a 5th set.