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View Full Version : J. Henin - One of the Greatests in the Making


bustigal
05-05-2005, 02:56 PM
Simply amazing! Justin Henin played 9 sets and won all three matches in the German open yesterday and today (less than perhaps 30 hours). Although her opponents were not big name players, great players win this kind of matches. You got to appreciate the will and the fighting spirit she possesses, especially after she just won two tourneys immediately before these. Enjoy it while you can. I think we are witnessing one of the all time greats in the making.

She has it all: the modern all-court attacking game, the nerve, the desire, the hard work, the never say-die spirit, and, yes, that gorgeous one-handed backhand. She took down Serena two years ago when Serena was at her peak. Her style is very similar to Federer’s, but pond for pond (and inch for inch), she is the best pro tennis player today.

The little girl stands the tallest among the giants.

framer
05-05-2005, 08:22 PM
Henin has a beautiful game indeed but given her poor sportsmanship several years ago at the French Open - the Serena Williams match, I have lost my respect for her - what she did was classless and shows that she really is a 'small' person - she doesn't stand tall. Her win over Serena was tainted. Up until then I was a big fan, but since that match, I am no longer a fan.

AJK1
05-05-2005, 09:03 PM
What did Henin do?

wildbill88AA
05-05-2005, 09:06 PM
Henin has a beautiful game indeed but given her poor sportsmanship several years ago at the French Open - the Serena Williams match, I have lost my respect for her - what she did was classless and shows that she really is a 'small' person - she doesn't stand tall. Her win over Serena was tainted. Up until then I was a big fan, but since that match, I am no longer a fan.

poor sportsmanship? far as i know, justine played within the rules. i think its classless for serena and her fans to make excuses because she lost.

framer
05-05-2005, 09:17 PM
poor sportsmanship? far as i know, justine played within the rules. i think its classless for serena and her fans to make excuses because she lost.


You are missing the point. One can play by the rules and still not be a sportsman. Justine didn't meet either standard - the judge asked Justine if she held up her hand to pause the game as Serena was serving - clearly Justine did and she denied it. It's not like the judge asked Henin if she thought a ball was in or out, the judge asked her "did you raise your hand to stop play while Serena was serving?" -- Since when is lying to the judge playing within the rules?

Btw, I am no fan of Serena either.

wildbill88AA
05-05-2005, 09:29 PM
the chairperson made a ruling. justine abidded by it. maybe serena should have allowed justine to get ready before serving. and to say justine won and you have no respect for her because of that one incident is silly.

and had it been anyone other that serena, they'd have simply played the point and not complained.

framer
05-05-2005, 09:50 PM
the chairperson made a ruling. justine abidded by it. maybe serena should have allowed justine to get ready before serving. and to say justine won and you have no respect for her because of that one incident is silly.

You are a revisionist - The chairperson made the ruling based on Henin's response - which was deceitful. Additionally I didn't say Henin won because of that one incident - what I said is that I am no longer a Henin fan since that match because of her sportsmanship. I fail to see why that is silly.

Chloe
05-05-2005, 10:03 PM
I love Justine. But yes, it probably would have been more polite of her to say "yo, I had my hand up. My bad!" I expect a formal apology from her, along with an apology from every player who has ever done anything that was not 100% sporting in spirit (protested a good call, failed to overrule a bad call, etc.). I'd also like to see all these players give back those wins, because they didn't really count.

Steve Huff
05-05-2005, 10:06 PM
Justine has a beautiful game to watch. But one of the all-time greats?? Too injury prone I think. And, too many hungry, young Russians.

aj_m2009
05-05-2005, 11:05 PM
Henin has a beautiful game indeed but given her poor sportsmanship several years ago at the French Open - the Serena Williams match, I have lost my respect for her - what she did was classless and shows that she really is a 'small' person - she doesn't stand tall. Her win over Serena was tainted. Up until then I was a big fan, but since that match, I am no longer a fan.

You failed to mention the countless times she has faked injuries in matches, like against Davenport at AO in '03.

Chloe
05-05-2005, 11:13 PM
Or the time against Jenn at the USO. She was such a good faker that she actually convinced the medics she needed IV fluids until 2am! She's incredible.

aj_m2009
05-05-2005, 11:14 PM
Or the time against Jenn at the USO. She was such a good faker that she actually convinced the medics she needed IV fluids until 2am! She's incredible.

She was, up until she had to get back on court, then she acted like nothing ever happened. She would make a great actress.

Chloe
05-05-2005, 11:18 PM
I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry now.

SonicSpeed
05-06-2005, 01:40 AM
I love Justine.

And you love Patty more.

wildbill88AA
05-06-2005, 06:39 AM
.........and at thirteen where justine faked her mom's death and was estranged from her father. quite a faker.

Camilio Pascual
05-06-2005, 06:59 AM
...and had it been anyone other that serena, they'd have simply played the point and not complained.

Bulloney! Anybody who saw the receiver's hand go up during their service motion and complete the service motion to avoid pulled muscle/rib problem would be VERY likely to complain. What you are saying is a ridiculous and unsupportable fantasy. At least keep it real.
I assign the responsibility thusly:
1. An incompetent and passive chair.
2. Serena for not complaining effectively and asking for help or clarification from the linespersons or challenging Henin's lying.
3. Henin for lying, cheating behaviour only if she is an amateur, just greasy behaviour since she is a pro.

johnmcc516
05-06-2005, 07:01 AM
I don't care, I still think she is talented and is one of my favorite wta's pro's to watch.

Brettolius
05-06-2005, 08:20 AM
yeah, if serena tried to stop in the middle of her service motion, she may have risked "rib malfunction" which we know she is prone to.

The tennis guy
05-06-2005, 08:40 AM
She was, up until she had to get back on court, then she acted like nothing ever happened. She would make a great actress.

Pathetic post, I have to say. I can understand people who raised the question regarding Serena match. Other than that, pure sore losers!

MattNowicki
05-06-2005, 09:27 AM
I WATCHED THIS INFAMOUS MATCH. The umpire looked at Justine, and she said "It's your decision"...that's all.

scoot
05-06-2005, 09:29 AM
Juju just body slammed Maria 6-2 6-4!!!

driger
05-06-2005, 09:30 AM
Bulloney! Anybody who saw the receiver's hand go up during their service motion and complete the service motion to avoid pulled muscle/rib problem would be VERY likely to complain. What you are saying is a ridiculous and unsupportable fantasy. At least keep it real.
I assign the responsibility thusly:
1. An incompetent and passive chair.
2. Serena for not complaining effectively and asking for help or clarification from the linespersons or challenging Henin's lying.
3. Henin for lying, cheating behaviour only if she is an amateur, just greasy behaviour since she is a pro.

You know i've never heard of another player making a similiar complaint, especially the server. Have you? Complete the service motion to avoid pulling a muscle? Now I think I've heard it all.LOL

aj_m2009
05-06-2005, 09:37 AM
Pathetic post, I have to say. I can understand people who raised the question regarding Serena match. Other than that, pure sore losers!

And exactly why was it pathetic, because you know it's true?

bustigal
05-06-2005, 09:55 AM
The JH-Serena thing in the 03 French was a controversial call at the most. If Serena was a great champion, why did she let one point bother her? Serena was just a bad loser. That’s obvious because she built up such a ridiculous expectation going in with the “Serena Slam” goal and got slammed by little JH twice in a roll (the 03 Family Circle Cup and the 03 FO). It got to hurt.

What do you think about the wrestling outfit with leather boot and shiny metal Serena wore on court? It was totally inappropriate apparel for tennis and was outright no respect for her opponents. You think that was good sportsmanship.

Comparing to all John Mac’s outbreaks and Connors erasing the ball mark on clay court to prevent the ump to reverse the call, the JH-Serena thing was a non-incident. Put all that aside, we still called J. Mac and Connors two of the tennis greats.

aj_m2009
05-06-2005, 10:00 AM
The JH-Serena thing in the 03 French was a controversial call at the most. If Serena was a great champion, why did she let one point bother her? Serena was just a bad loser. That’s obvious because she built up such a ridiculous expectation going in with the “Serena Slam” goal and got slammed by little JH twice in a roll (the 03 Family Circle Cup and the 03 FO). It got to hurt.

The FCC one was a bit of a "slam" but how was a 3 set match a "slam"?

What do you think about the wrestling outfit with leather boot and shiny metal Serena wore on court? It was totally inappropriate apparel for tennis and was outright no respect for her opponents. You think that was good sportsmanship...

What wrestling outfit? And how is wearing a certain outfit bad sportsmanship?

Camilio Pascual
05-06-2005, 10:16 AM
You know i've never heard of another player making a similiar complaint, especially the server. Have you? Complete the service motion to avoid pulling a muscle? Now I think I've heard it all.LOL

Yes, I have.
Glad to help you, make sure to complete your service motion, especially if you try hard and have a powerful motion.
Ignorance is excusable, so I excuse your sarcasm. I learned this from 2 sources: as a baseball pitcher and from tennis coaches. I've seen 3 or 4 pitchers hurt themselves from not following through with their motions.
I'd be interested to see if any pro coaches here would like to advise in writing NOT to go through with a service motion, but to try to stop it or hold it up after starting.

Kaptain Karl
05-06-2005, 10:46 AM
I've stated before, the "Cheater" label is deserved if you cheat ONE TIME. Justine cheated -- plain and simple -- with her Hand/No Hand act.

[And the Umpire never asked Henin if she held up her hand. The Ump merely looked at her. As Matt posts (#20) Henin ducked the opportunity to be honest. She cheated.

I heard Carillo (I think?) report that Serena confronted Justine in the locker room after the match, demanding to know why Justine didn't admit to holding up her hand. Justine's reported response was, "The Umpire didn't ask me."]

Justine is a cheater. Henin no longer has my respect.

- KK

Phil
05-06-2005, 10:48 AM
Bulloney! Anybody who saw the receiver's hand go up during their service motion and complete the service motion to avoid pulled muscle/rib problem would be VERY likely to complain. What you are saying is a ridiculous and unsupportable fantasy. At least keep it real.
I assign the responsibility thusly:
1. An incompetent and passive chair.
2. Serena for not complaining effectively and asking for help or clarification from the linespersons or challenging Henin's lying.
3. Henin for lying, cheating behaviour only if she is an amateur, just greasy behaviour since she is a pro.

Camilio - I don't care much for Henin myself, but damn, this was a single match played almost two years ago and you're still sore over it (you've mentioned "The Incident" in a number of posts). Methinks, as just a suggestion, that it's time to move on.

Yeah, I know, her true, "greasy" character came through in that match, but Serena blew it also-she let it get to her, and a pro with her head on straight would never let that happen, or might even turn it to their advantage (Think Evert, Graff or Navritilova...). It was an excuse to lose-a loss of nerve, and Henin obviously made the right gambit in that respect. Greasy? Slimy? Of course, but it's history now. It's not like HH cheats each time she steps on the court. Not really a lot of opportunity to do so, as these things are umpired. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it-I think Serena got over it much quicker than you have;-)

Camilio Pascual
05-06-2005, 11:02 AM
Appreciate the message Phil, I see her as a greaser, too.
Agreed, Serena did let it get to her and didn't think clearly or handle it well. I enjoy "defending" (she is not a CHEAT, she is just a GREASER!) Henin. I'm more over it than you think, but the abuse potential is just too easy to pass up. I'm sure you understand!

Marius_Hancu
05-06-2005, 11:08 AM
To my mind, she's the greatest technical player since Graf.

Of course, she needs more Slams to reach Serena's record, but she's already made a strong impression in terms of contribution to the game, at least on me.

driger
05-06-2005, 12:18 PM
justine a "greaser"? i thought she was belgian. thanks for your clarification on the incident karl. by that standard, i guess everyones a cheater.

Kaptain Karl
05-06-2005, 01:11 PM
thanks for your clarification on the incident karl. by that standard, i guess everyones a cheater.Your standards are too low. I know many many people who have never cheated in ANY sport. Don't you?

- KK

0.2RatedPlayer
05-06-2005, 01:21 PM
i never watched that FO final with her and serena. what exactly does raising her hand do with cheating? a quick explanation please?

The tennis guy
05-06-2005, 01:34 PM
And exactly why was it pathetic, because you know it's true?

I know people who lost but tried to find excuses are sore losers. Anyone who has brain knew she was cramping during Capriati match at US Open. She didn't call injury timeout due to sore losers complained before. To the testment of her greatness, she still won despite of the injury. Only sore losers or someone who doesn't have brain couldn't comprehend great effort from that match.

nn
05-06-2005, 01:36 PM
I don't think she is greatest or great.. wait and watch if she can keep her body on court..

The tennis guy
05-06-2005, 01:42 PM
I don't think she is greatest or great.. wait and watch if she can keep her body on court..

Saying she is one the greatest is an exxageration, but one in the making is a predication we have to wait and see. For the time on-court, she is incredible. She didn't play much before Olympics, won the gold; didn't play for another 6 months, came back lost only one match in 4 tournaments. This is something extremely difficult to do!

aj_m2009
05-06-2005, 01:49 PM
I know people who lost but tried to find excuses are sore losers. Anyone who has brain knew she was cramping during Capriati match at US Open. She didn't call injury timeout due to sore losers complained before. To the testment of her greatness, she still won despite of the injury. Only sore losers or someone who doesn't have brain couldn't comprehend great effort from that match.

I wasn't talking about that match, I never even saw that match. Now I was talking about the match against Davenport at AO. If you actually watched that match you could tell she obviously faked it. You don't fall over from cramps, get rubbed for about 5 minutes, and then be absolutely fine, it just doesn't happen.

Justine Fanatic
05-06-2005, 02:21 PM
Henin has a beautiful game indeed but given her poor sportsmanship several years ago at the French Open - the Serena Williams match, I have lost my respect for her - what she did was classless and shows that she really is a 'small' person - she doesn't stand tall. Her win over Serena was tainted. Up until then I was a big fan, but since that match, I am no longer a fan.


I'm sure she'll be very, very upset when I tell her what you have said!

I don't think she's worried. Plus, she also wouldn't want fans like you who think like that! Pathetic!

driger
05-06-2005, 02:25 PM
i never watched that FO final with her and serena. what exactly does raising her hand do with cheating? a quick explanation please?

serena started to serve. justine partially raised her hand. serena served anyway, committing a fault. chairperson ruled the serve to be in play. serena whined to no avail. justine did what ant professional would do in any sport. let the chairperson officiate the match.

DashaandSafin
05-06-2005, 02:28 PM
Serena's *** got in the way of her line of vision

Justine Fanatic
05-06-2005, 02:32 PM
I've stated before, the "Cheater" label is deserved if you cheat ONE TIME. Justine cheated -- plain and simple -- with her Hand/No Hand act.

[And the Umpire never asked Henin if she held up her hand. The Ump merely looked at her. As Matt posts (#20) Henin ducked the opportunity to be honest. She cheated.

I heard Carillo (I think?) report that Serena confronted Justine in the locker room after the match, demanding to know why Justine didn't admit to holding up her hand. Justine's reported response was, "The Umpire didn't ask me."]

Justine is a cheater. Henin no longer has my respect.

- KK

Again - Justine will not lose any sleep over you not being her fan - she's getting on fine without you thanks. She has millions of fans all over the world.

BTW, Serena faking injuries - does that also not come to mind??? Is Serena such a sportsman (yes I said man). What about when she screamed at Peer because she thought she'd hit the ball at her on purpose. Serena was losing against a virtually unknown and didn't like it - so she tried to bully Shahar Peer. Double-standards I would say.

Justine Fanatic
05-06-2005, 02:36 PM
justine a "greaser"? i thought she was belgian. thanks for your clarification on the incident karl. by that standard, i guess everyones a cheater.

Like the joke driger.

Exactly - apart from Clijsters, most of them try to get away with something if they can, whether intentional or unintentional.

Most of the posters on here that bash Henin-Hardenne are just angry that they don't like her, but love the way she plays. So they have to justify why they don't like her. If you don't like her, don't watch her game - easy as that! She ain't worried believe you me.

aj_m2009
05-06-2005, 02:37 PM
Again - Justine will not lose any sleep over you not being her fan - she's getting on fine without you thanks. She has millions of fans all over the world.

BTW, Serena faking injuries - does that also not come to mind??? Is Serena such a sportsman (yes I said man). What about when she screamed at Peer because she thought she'd hit the ball at her on purpose. Serena was losing against a virtually unknown and didn't like it - so she tried to bully Shahar Peer. Double-standards I would say.

When the heck did she scream at her? She never screamed.:roll: And what are you, the head of Justine's fan club?

aj_m2009
05-06-2005, 02:40 PM
...If you don't like her, don't watch her game - easy as that!

And what if she is playing one of our favs? Are we just supposed to say "oh forget da-da-da-da-da since she is playing Justine". I don't think so.

She ain't worried believe you me.

And how many more times can you possibly say that?

Justine Fanatic
05-06-2005, 02:40 PM
Serena's *** got in the way of her line of vision


That has really, really made me chuckle - I can't stop picturing it!!! Oh that's made my evening. Thank you so much! Along with Justine mullering Gruntapova - what a day!!!!

:mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Justine Fanatic
05-06-2005, 02:42 PM
When the heck did she scream at her? She never screamed.:roll: And what are you, the head of Justine's fan club?

Might be!!

In answer to your question - did you not see the match?

aj_m2009
05-06-2005, 02:43 PM
Might be!!

In answer to your question - did you not see the match?

Did you????????

Justine Fanatic
05-06-2005, 02:44 PM
And what if she is playing one of our favs? Are we just supposed to say "oh forget da-da-da-da-da since she is playing Justine". I don't think so.

I won't be worth watching cuz you'll only be upset when she beats them and then you'll complain again, so is it worth watching just to get upset and annoyed? Think about it!

And how many more times can you possibly say that?

Quite a few if you want.

Justine Fanatic
05-06-2005, 02:46 PM
Did you????????

Of course! It was also on the tennis news boards.

aj_m2009
05-06-2005, 02:48 PM
I won't be worth watching cuz you'll only be upset when she beats them and then you'll complain again, so is it worth watching just to get upset and annoyed? Think about it!

What, is she invincible or something? Can she not lose?

Quite a few if you want.

Go ahead, I don't really care, I was just pointing out that you have said it several times?

aj_m2009
05-06-2005, 02:49 PM
Of course! It was also on the tennis news boards.

You sure you watched it, 'cause she didn't yell at her, she just looked at her. And then afterwards asked. I don't think any of that is yelling.

driger
05-06-2005, 02:50 PM
justine is the best on clay. whether she can beat gruntova hardcourts remains to be seen.

gugafanatic
05-06-2005, 03:53 PM
She is producing remarkable results conidering her injuries. She is the dominant player on the womens tour and will probably win the FO.

Chadwixx
05-06-2005, 04:18 PM
Bulloney! Anybody who saw the receiver's hand go up during their service motion and complete the service motion to avoid pulled muscle/rib problem would be VERY likely to complain. What you are saying is a ridiculous and unsupportable fantasy. At least keep it real.
I assign the responsibility thusly:
1. An incompetent and passive chair.
2. Serena for not complaining effectively and asking for help or clarification from the linespersons or challenging Henin's lying.
3. Henin for lying, cheating behaviour only if she is an amateur, just greasy behaviour since she is a pro.

if serena treated the other players on the tour with an ounce of respect they may do the same for her. its not like henin did it to steffi graf, she did it to serena, a player who has never said anything positive about anyone except herself.

its amazing that a match consisting of 250 pts was won because serena didnt get to hit another first serve, one would have to be a fool to believe that.

faste5683
05-06-2005, 06:25 PM
You are missing the point. One can play by the rules and still not be a sportsman. Justine didn't meet either standard - the judge asked Justine if she held up her hand to pause the game as Serena was serving - clearly Justine did and she denied it. It's not like the judge asked Henin if she thought a ball was in or out, the judge asked her "did you raise your hand to stop play while Serena was serving?" -- Since when is lying to the judge playing within the rules?


This sounds good, but I suggest you check out the WTA rules. The umpire did not ask Justine about raising her hand because he couldn't. It would be against the rules for him to do so. Umpires don't ask players anything - it is their job to make all decisions during the course of a match.

I don't know where this myth started, but it's getting old...

Bertchel Banks
05-06-2005, 06:57 PM
This sounds good, but I suggest you check out the WTA rules. The umpire did not ask Justine about raising her hand because he couldn't. It would be against the rules for him to do so. Umpires don't ask players anything - it is their job to make all decisions during the course of a match.

The umpire DID ask Justine is she raised her hand. The question may not have been expressed, but it was implied. That is why Ulrich LOOKED at Justine.

To my mind, she's the greatest technical player since Graf.

Shows what you know about technique. All Graf did was win. Have you ever seen Lindsay Davenport play? Henin hits a fair share of hunched from the waist backhands, and her forehand has a weird sprawled-leg/backfoot hitting/sideward momentum look to it.

Kaptain Karl
05-06-2005, 06:59 PM
driger is practicing some "revisionist history." Henin didn't "partially" put up her hand (signaling she wasn't ready for Serena to serve). She clearly put up her hand.

The Ump didn't see it, but Serena did. In that moment, Henin became a no-class cheater.

I am no Serena "fanatic". Look at my posts. I'm one of her harshest critics for squandering her talent. (aj knows that, right?)

- KK

Chloe
05-06-2005, 07:04 PM
In that moment, Henin became a no-class cheater.


Agreed. She should have been banned on the spot.

Bertchel Banks
05-06-2005, 07:24 PM
Agreed. She should have been banned on the spot.

...and let her gain martyr status? That's too easy. Karma has done a lovely job setting her straight though. The Gods were watching.

driger
05-06-2005, 07:38 PM
This sounds good, but I suggest you check out the WTA rules. The umpire did not ask Justine about raising her hand because he couldn't. It would be against the rules for him to do so. Umpires don't ask players anything - it is their job to make all decisions during the course of a match.

I don't know where this myth started, but it's getting old...

bravo! its not the players job to referee the match. had the serve been an ace, according to the rules, it would have counted and serena would never complained. and umpires do not appreciate the players getting involved(i.e. conceding points), no matter who benefits.

Bertchel Banks
05-06-2005, 07:45 PM
bravo! its not the players job to referee the match. had the serve been an ace, according to the rules, it would have counted and serena would never complained. and umpires do not appreciate the players getting involved, no matter who benefits.

It's this kind of personality that elect, and re-elect Bush to restore honor, and prestige to the US Presidency.

driger
05-06-2005, 07:56 PM
It's this kind of personality that elect, and re-elect Bush to restore honor, and prestige to the US Presidency.

naw, bush is to liberal.

Chloe
05-06-2005, 08:22 PM
...and let her gain martyr status? That's too easy. Karma has done a lovely job setting her straight though. The Gods were watching.
Yes, Karma has certainly damned her. The worst moments of her career have all come after that match.

YEMntFtb
05-06-2005, 08:27 PM
I expect a formal apology from her, along with an apology from every player who has ever done anything that was not 100% sporting in spirit (protested a good call, failed to overrule a bad call, etc.). I'd also like to see all these players give back those wins, because they didn't really count.


I'm sorry but to think one or two bad calls makes a match, your wrong. Bad calls happen all the time, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. The fact that Serena lost proves she isn't mentally strong enough to put bad calls aside and play her game.

YEMntFtb
05-06-2005, 08:28 PM
It's this kind of personality that elect, and re-elect Bush to restore honor, and prestige to the US Presidency.


What are you trying to get at?

Bertchel Banks
05-06-2005, 09:04 PM
Yes, Karma has certainly damned her. The worst moments of her career have all come after that match.

Yeah, Herpes Simplex

Max G.
05-06-2005, 09:39 PM
The umpire DID ask Justine is she raised her hand. The question may not have been expressed, but it was implied. That is why Ulrich LOOKED at Justine.

Oh my. Now you expect Justine to READ the umpire's mind? To assume that since the umpire LOOKED at her, that means she was being asked a question?

Whether it is a player's place to officiate matches is debatable - but I am 101% sure that players should not be required to pick up "implied" cues from the umpire.

I saw the incident. It looked as follows:
Henin raises her hand.
Serena serves.
Henin does not return it and stands there with her hand raised.
Serena and the umpire talk. Henin stands there looking around. The umpire looks at Henin. Henin shrugs her shoulders. The umpire makes a ruling, Henin gets ready to recieve serve.

I see no question being asked or answered there. A look does not constitute a question, and a gesture certainly cannot indicate an answer to a question that was never asked.
The look could have meant a bunch of things:
1) Nothing. The umpire is human, he looks around with no implied intent or anything.
2) "Did you raise your hand?"
3) "Was the ball in?"
4) "Was the ball out?"
5) "Did you ask me something?"

Note that with the crowd noise, and given the occasion, it is QUITE likely that Justine did not know what Serena had been saying to the umpire, especially give that English was not her first language. I know that in her shoes, I would probably be absorbed to the point where I'm not noticing all the antics of my opponent - or if not, then I would be trying my best to ignore what's going on around me and concentrate on making a gameplan for the next point.

Now, Henin's shrug. I can think of a bunch of things that could possibly mean:

1) "I didn't raise my hand."
2) "What are you looking at me for, are you asking me something?"
3) "What does Serena want?"
4) "I can't continue play until the crowd settles down."
5) "I don't know what the rules are on this case, am I about to recieve a first or second serve?"
6) "It's your ruling, make the call and leave me out of it"
7) "I didn't see it, come down and check the mark if you want to verify the call."


Frankly, the umpire should know better than to assume that if he "looks" at a player that he'll be understood and responded to. If the umpire wanted to know something, then he should have asked Justine and not just "looked."

Bertchel Banks
05-06-2005, 09:47 PM
Oh my. Now you expect Justine to READ the umpire's mind? To assume that since the umpire LOOKED at her, that means she was being asked a question?

Of course. It followed the logical chain of events.

Whether it is a player's place to officiate matches is debatable...

Like the professor told us, when the law is with you, argue the law. When the facts are with you, argue the facts. When both are against you confuse the heck outta them.

You, Max G, are doing an excellent job on option 3. That's it, the entire incident had nothing to do with the hand, or the serve, but Ulrich delegating her duty upon Henin's shoulders. Yeah, that was the issue.

Chloe
05-06-2005, 10:04 PM
I'm sorry but to think one or two bad calls makes a match, your wrong. Bad calls happen all the time, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. The fact that Serena lost proves she isn't mentally strong enough to put bad calls aside and play her game.

Indeed. I would be wrong. If I had said that, that is.

Bertchel Banks
05-06-2005, 10:15 PM
I'm sorry but to think one or two bad calls makes a match, your wrong. Bad calls happen all the time, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. The fact that Serena lost proves she isn't mentally strong enough to put bad calls aside and play her game.

If her lost was proof of mental weakness, isn't it logical to conclude she's one to be affected by a bad call or two during a match?

faste5683
05-07-2005, 03:38 AM
Frankly, the umpire should know better than to assume that if he "looks" at a player that he'll be understood and responded to. If the umpire wanted to know something, then he should have asked Justine and not just "looked."

Up until this point, this was a great post! But here, I have to say again, that
it's against the rules for the umpire to ask a player ANYTHING.

Ed

aj_m2009
05-07-2005, 05:17 AM
driger is practicing some "revisionist history." Henin didn't "partially" put up her hand (signaling she wasn't ready for Serena to serve). She clearly put up her hand.

The Ump didn't see it, but Serena did. In that moment, Henin became a no-class cheater.

I am no Serena "fanatic". Look at my posts. I'm one of her harshest critics for squandering her talent. (aj knows that, right?)

- KK

I completely agree, she has lost all respect I had for her and she isn't getting it back. And yes Justine Fanatic, I know she wont lose any sleep over it. She flat out cheated there, she could have just as easily said "Yes, I put my hand up", but no, she obviously isn't honest enough to do that. But as I've said before that isn't the only thing she has done, she has also faked cramps several times(and I know, several people have done it but she seems to do it the most). Like in AO in '03 against Davenport, that was obviously fake.

P.S.
Yes, I know you are very hard on Serena.

Justine Fanatic
05-07-2005, 07:06 AM
Yes, Karma has certainly damned her. The worst moments of her career have all come after that match.

That's right, the:


US SF with Capriati
US Open
Australian Open
a few other tournamnets


and the last couple of tournaments this year!

Fantastic!

Justine Fanatic
05-07-2005, 07:13 AM
I completely agree, she has lost all respect I had for her and she isn't getting it back. And yes Justine Fanatic, I know she wont lose any sleep over it. She flat out cheated there, she could have just as easily said "Yes, I put my hand up", but no, she obviously isn't honest enough to do that. But as I've said before that isn't the only thing she has done, she has also faked cramps several times(and I know, several people have done it but she seems to do it the most). Like in AO in '03 against Davenport, that was obviously fake.

P.S.
Yes, I know you are very hard on Serena.

Justine didn't cheat, Serena cheated. Serena saw Justine's hand up, knew she wasn't ready and still started to serve! What a cheat Serena is!!!

aj_m2009 do me a favour ........... SHUT UP and GROW UP!!! We are not bothered by what you say AT ALL (that is myself and I'm sure Justine Henin-Hardenne). I will of course tell her your opinions of her after she has won the final tomorrow in Berlin (we're having lunch), so we'll see what she says. I hope she's not having soup, because I may have to stop her crying into it!!!!!!!

aj_m2009
05-07-2005, 07:22 AM
Justine didn't cheat, Serena cheated. Serena saw Justine's hand up, knew she wasn't ready and still started to serve! What a cheat Serena is!!!

Are you blind or what? Wait...that's a stupid question because you obviously are. Serena was already serving when Justine put her hand up.

aj_m2009 do me a favour ........... SHUT UP and GROW UP!!! We are not bothered by what you say AT ALL (that is myself and I'm sure Justine Henin-Hardenne). I will of course tell her your opinions of her after she has won the final tomorrow in Berlin (we're having lunch), so we'll see what she says. I hope she's not having soup, because I may have to stop her crying into it!!!!!!!

You shut up and grow up. And get a brain too. I'm not trying to bother anyone but you obviously can't tell that. And sure you're having lunch together.

Justine Fanatic
05-07-2005, 07:27 AM
Are you blind or what? Wait...that's a stupid question because you obviously are. Serena was already serving when Justine put her hand up.

20:20 vision thank you. Serena cheated that's all. Like she always does.


And sure you're having lunch together.

Oh yes! I told you, I hope she doesn't have soup. I'll take the kleenex with just in case. I'll let you know just how much she cries when I tell her your feelings about her.

framer
05-07-2005, 07:31 AM
bravo! its not the players job to referee the match. had the serve been an ace, according to the rules, it would have counted and serena would never complained. and umpires do not appreciate the players getting involved(i.e. conceding points), no matter who benefits.

There are two sides that to the "had it been an ace" argument. Had it been an ace we know that Serena would not have complained about the hand BUT don't think for a second that Henin would have just walked to the ad side to receive the next serve - she would have complained to the ref that her hand was up and she was not ready.

Ask yourself this question (even though it would never happen as I imagine the ref would ask a linesman instead) - if Serena hit an ace then Henin protested that she was not ready and the ref then asked Serena "was Henin's hand up" - how would Serena answer? You all have your opinions on how Serena would answer, factoring in her past antics, sportsmanship and the rules of the game, but we know how Henin answered this question for sure with a blank look and a greasy hand.

aj_m2009
05-07-2005, 07:36 AM
20:20 vision thank you. Serena cheated that's all. Like she always does.

Now explain to me how Serena cheated if she was midway through her serve motion when Justine put her hand up? And why are you just telling me this, there have been several other people say what I have said too?

Oh yes! I told you, I hope she doesn't have soup. I'll take the kleenex with just in case. I'll let you know just how much she cries when I tell her your feelings about her.

And how old are you, 9...10 maybe? Or do you just act that age?

driger
05-07-2005, 07:54 AM
There are two sides that to the "had it been an ace" argument. Had it been an ace we know that Serena would not have complained about the hand BUT don't think for a second that Henin would have just walked to the ad side to receive the next serve - she would have complained to the ref that her hand was up and she was not ready.

Ask yourself this question (even though it would never happen as I imagine the ref would ask a linesman instead) - if Serena hit an ace then Henin protested that she was not ready and the ref then asked Serena "was Henin's hand up" - how would Serena answer? You all have your opinions on how Serena would answer, factoring in her past antics, sportsmanship and the rules of the game, but we know how Henin answered this question for sure with a blank look and a greasy hand.

henin maybe would have complained. but it wouldn't have mattered. time was not called before the point had started(although henin may attempted too), and henin was in the receivers box. this is why we have umpires. the players know and are taught not to concede points. you win some you lose some, they even out. and conceding points also belittles the umpire. you could find controversial moments like this involving all the champions.

DashaandSafin
05-07-2005, 08:07 AM
Haha wow...what a thread... But really guys who hasent cheated at least once or twice in thier lifetime. Id say cut the little girl a break eh?

framer
05-07-2005, 08:19 AM
Justine didn't cheat, Serena cheated. Serena saw Justine's hand up, knew she wasn't ready and still started to serve! What a cheat Serena is!!!

aj_m2009 do me a favour ........... SHUT UP and GROW UP!!! We are not bothered by what you say AT ALL (that is myself and I'm sure Justine Henin-Hardenne). I will of course tell her your opinions of her after she has won the final tomorrow in Berlin (we're having lunch), so we'll see what she says. I hope she's not having soup, because I may have to stop her crying into it!!!!!!!

Hey Fanatic - I have a suggestion for you. Clearly you are a big (perhaps the biggest) fan of Justine. I imagine your passion and love of the game is unequaled. You model your game to match that of Henin's. Your backhand and footwork are superb. People at the tennis courts are amazed at how much pace you can generate on your serve. Ahh, but you are missing something...that X factor...we will call it "Playing by Henin's rules." It has been said that tennis is a mental game. I have kindly outlined a script for you to rehearse prior to your next match. Memorize this like the great actress Henin and use it as the basis for your start of the match conversation with your opponent. This way your opponent won't be confused like those TV commentators and the silly people on the TW forums.

---------------------------------------------
You: Hi, how are you? I love this game, don't you? I love playing this game but I like it even more when I play by The Henin Rules.

Opponent: Huh? What's that?

You: Yes, The Henin Rules. This is how it works. When you are serving, I will hold my hand up. Never you mind about my hand, just serve, ok?

Opponent: But holding up your hand means that you are not ready to receive.

You: Not with The Henin Rules. If I hold up my hand, it is a meaningless gesture. Imagine that the hand was never raised. That's how I look at it. In fact if you ask me about my raised hand, I'll just give you a blank stare, ok?

Opponent: What if you really are not ready to receive serve? How will I know?

You: Good point. Let's agree that if I hop on my left leg and scream out "I have a virus" then you'll know I wasn't ready to receive your serve.

Opponent: Uh, ok. I have to say I am not familiar with these rules. But now that I think about it, it does explain what happened at the French Open a few years back during the Henin/Williams match....Serena was so foolish to complain. I guess if Serena concentrated on learning the The Henin Rules of the game instead of pretending to be a fashion designer, then that misunderstanding would not have taken place. I clearly get it now - the raised hand has no meaning!

You: Well, let me clarify...it does and it doesn't. Let's say you serve an ace. At that point I will say I wasn't ready and you will have to hit that serve again. You see, with The Henin Rules, if you serve an ace and I was not ready, I don't have to hop on my left leg. But if you serve a fault, then, well, it's a fault. Get it?

Opponent: Now I am really confused. This doesn't seem fair. This seems like cheating. If it isn't cheating, then I don't know what you call it.

You: Have you been listening to me? It is called The Henin Rules. Let's go out there and play. After you lose the match because it doesn't seem right, I'll explain some other parts of The Henin Rules like only faking cramps when you are losing, never when you are winning and the proper way to grease one's hand and the best way to clean off the grease in the locker room.

Opponent: Thanks. I am still learning this game, I thought I knew how to play but I guess there is so much that I can still learn. Grease, eh? Is it better to use liquid hand soap or bar soap to wash off grease.....and that blank stare...do you practice that in front of a mirror....

The tennis guy
05-07-2005, 08:36 AM
Haha wow...what a thread... But really guys who hasent cheated at least once or twice in thier lifetime. Id say cut the little girl a break eh?

Agree, what a thread! The reason this thread exists now is because JHH has come back, and has been winning like crazy. Some people can't take that. Well, too bad. Get used to it!

Justine Fanatic
05-07-2005, 11:55 AM
Agree, what a thread! The reason this thread exists now is because JHH has come back, and has been winning like crazy. Some people can't take that. Well, too bad. Get used to it!


My sentiments exactly!!!

She is back - and winning EVERYTHING, so just move on. It's 2 years already - I just can't believe these people - amazing, so amazing. I feel very sorry for them - very sad.

***************

Oh and to the guy who wrote the little script that to tell you the truth I couldn't really be bothered reading ...... , have you written for the soap General Hospital? That was also very boring!!

driger
05-07-2005, 12:12 PM
sharapova should be happy with justine's re-emergence. now people have someone else to trash.

faste5683
05-07-2005, 03:13 PM
Agree, what a thread! The reason this thread exists now is because JHH has come back, and has been winning like crazy. Some people can't take that. Well, too bad. Get used to it!

:)

Exactly. It's gonna be a long year if they don't get (used) to it.

fedfan
05-07-2005, 08:59 PM
justine fan: you are so biased its not even funny
if you would open your eyes for a second youd see that no one on the board is saying that everyone is perfect (i.e. no one is a cheater) but that justine definetly cheated on that day. your comments and remarks are so idiotic. obviosly people on this board dont like some players (maybe because they cheat) so stop whining if they talk about justine. grow up.


ps. justine definetly cheated

Chloe
05-07-2005, 09:18 PM
She cheated every bit as much as any player who has ever been dishonest about a line call has cheated. Especially those who wipe the mark on clay. ;)

If it were up to me, all these players would be tarred and feathered.

Justine Fanatic
05-08-2005, 02:45 AM
justine fan: you are so biased its not even funny
if you would open your eyes for a second youd see that no one on the board is saying that everyone is perfect (i.e. no one is a cheater) but that justine definetly cheated on that day. your comments and remarks are so idiotic. obviosly people on this board dont like some players (maybe because they cheat) so stop whining if they talk about justine. grow up.


ps. justine definetly cheated

Does no one have a sense of humour on this board??????????

I know she cheated along with every other tennis player. So what?

fedfan
05-08-2005, 06:55 AM
quit trying to defend yourself if you know youre wrong

Kaptain Karl
05-08-2005, 10:28 PM
I know she cheated along with every other tennis player. So what?Finally!!! It only took you three pages of defending her to finally admit she's a cheater.

"So what?" If you don't know, you have a bigger problem than trying to defend Henin on this thread.

- KK

Phil
05-08-2005, 11:43 PM
Does no one have a sense of humour on this board??????????

I know she cheated along with every other tennis player. So what?

Huh? Would you care to cite a few, or many examples of "...every other tennis player." cheating?

Camilio Pascual
05-09-2005, 04:47 AM
its not like henin did it to steffi graf, she did it to serena, a player who has never said anything positive about anyone except herself.

its amazing that a match consisting of 250 pts was won because serena didnt get to hit another first serve, one would have to be a fool to believe that.

As to your first quote, nice to see someone feels Henin's act was intentional, I suspected it was specifically directed at Serena, but wasn't really sure given her conduct to other players. But, if a Henin fan thinks so, it makes me think again it is possible.

Agree with your 2nd quote. BTW, which poster(s) asserted that?

Camilio Pascual
05-09-2005, 04:55 AM
I know she cheated along with every other tennis player. So what?

Bingo! Henin's a cheat!
Wow! I'm not a Henin fan and I merely call her a greaser. Now that you have brought this up, there was a penalty for illegal coaching assessed against her, wasn't there? along with every other tennis player, no doubt.

oldguysrule
05-09-2005, 09:57 AM
This has been really interesting....to a point. It really boils down to this... How much responsibility does a professional tennis player have in assisting the umpire with his decisions? Justine may have wanted to stop the point but realized that serena was already serving...so let the umpire decide. Serena may have seen the hand but decided to go ahead and serve...let the umpire decide. (by the way if she didn't like her toss or the wind had blown it or someone had yelled at her, I bet she could have stopped her motion) If a ball on the line is called out, do players overrule the linesman?

It really is hard to get into the head of another person and make assumptions about what that person is thinking. Why don't we give everyone the benefit of the doubt and enjoy this great game. I tell my son if it's close, play 'em.

The sun is shining...I think I will go hit some with my son.

Camilio Pascual
05-09-2005, 10:23 AM
If a ball on the line is called out, do players overrule the linesman?

It's not their responsibility to do so. Sometimes they do, as Andy Roddick did last week.

Tennis Ball Hitter
05-09-2005, 11:17 AM
The umpires are there to officiate and it was the umpire who erred in not allowing serena to take the serve again. [assuming there is a rule that applies in this situation].

IMO pros can't cheat because the umpires officiate the game, they can only display bad sportsmanship.

Chadwixx
05-09-2005, 12:16 PM
As to your first quote, nice to see someone feels Henin's act was intentional, I suspected it was specifically directed at Serena, but wasn't really sure given her conduct to other players. But, if a Henin fan thinks so, it makes me think again it is possible.

Agree with your 2nd quote. BTW, which poster(s) asserted that?

u make it sound like it was a calculated plan. put urself in her position, ur playing someone that gives u and others zero respect then she asks for a let. what would u do?

if its any other player beside serena or capriati they would have gotten a first serve, but u cant treat ppl like crap and expect them to treat u nicely.

Camilio Pascual
05-09-2005, 01:33 PM
u make it sound like it was a calculated plan. put urself in her position, ur playing someone that gives u and others zero respect then she asks for a let. what would u do?

if its any other player beside serena or capriati they would have gotten a first serve, but u cant treat ppl like crap and expect them to treat u nicely.

What would I do? Let's see, I raised my hand, the server continues her motion, dumps it in the net, and then makes it clear she saw my hand up by objecting.
Well, one huge difference between you and me, Chadwixx, is that it wouldn't matter one whit whether the player treated me nice or not. I would admit I held my hand up. I'd hate to have millions of people think of me as a cheat for my greasy behaviour.

I find it rather strange of you to assert that off court behaviour should affect the application of tennis rules. I don't get the relevancy and feel considerations like this would corrupt the game very quickly. Where did you get that idea? Don't you think the integrity and not just the competency of the chair would come into question if he gave out serves based on your criteria?

wildbill88AA
05-09-2005, 01:37 PM
What would I do? Let's see, I raised my hand, the server continues her motion, dumps it in the net, and then makes it clear she saw my hand up by objecting.
Well, one huge difference between you and me, Chadwixx, is that it wouldn't matter one whit whether the player treated me nice or not. I would admit I held my hand up. I'd hate to have millions of people think of me as a cheat for my greasy behaviour.

I find it rather strange of you to assert that off court behaviour should affect the application of tennis rules. I don't get the relevancy and feel considerations like this would corrupt the game very quickly. Where did you get that idea? Don't you think the integrity and not just the competency of the chair would come into question if he gave out serves based on your criteria?

millions dont think of justine as a cheat, its just a few morons who don't understand the rules.

fastdunn
05-09-2005, 02:04 PM
There's nothing free in life. She did cheat one free and life will make her pay for that.

It's really sad to watch this great talent tarnished by one cheating act.

Everytime I watch her playing, I always ask "This is an unusual talent. Why did
she cheat that one point?".

I hope it does not affect her confidence...

rlbjr
05-09-2005, 02:24 PM
Someone once wrote that sports don't create character, they reveal it. This incident in Justines match revealed a flaw in her character. She would rather take advantage of any situation to win a match than do the right thing and risk not winning. Regardless of whether Serena finished her motion, had the serve gone in it would not have counted because Justine signaled 'not ready'
by raising her hand and leaving her ready position. It is likely but not certain that that action caused Serena to miss the serve. The umpire did not see Justines action and when Serena explained he looked in a questioning manner to Justine. Justine knew, as everyone watching knew, that the umpire was asking whether she had raised her hand. Justine chose simply to shrug in a 'I don't know what you are talking about' manner rather than just say yes, I did.
The crowd was already loud and obnoxious over to line call disputes in which Serena followed the rules and was proven correct, so she chose not to pursue
the issue.

Justine had the chance to do the right thing and she blew it. Character revealed. Has she learned from that and improved? I don't know, I haven't seen her face a similar choice since then.

rlbjr
05-09-2005, 02:27 PM
Sorry, to the poster commenting that Serena should have given her time to get ready, Justine was ready. She decided to hold up do to crowd noise.

Another poster was right, this is old news and largely forgotten. However, when one person starts a discussion about how the love Hennin and why, it is relevant to say why one is not a fan.

Chadwixx
05-09-2005, 02:27 PM
What would I do? Let's see, I raised my hand, the server continues her motion, dumps it in the net, and then makes it clear she saw my hand up by objecting.


have u ever hit a serve? after the ball is thrown ur head goes up (sometimes the head goes up with the arm). so serena must have seen justins hand before she tossed the ball (a quick serve, poor sportsmanship), or this is made up.

Chadwixx
05-09-2005, 02:38 PM
if serena served like roscoe tanner (hitting the ball on the way up) u may have a point, but she lets it drop like most ppl do. thus the motion in which she would hurt her ribs (or whatever) never began.

aj_m2009
05-09-2005, 02:49 PM
have u ever hit a serve? after the ball is thrown ur head goes up (sometimes the head goes up with the arm). so serena must have seen justins hand before she tossed the ball (a quick serve, poor sportsmanship), or this is made up.

She was hitting the serve when she saw it. Once you hit the ball during the serve you are going to be looking in the direction you hit the ball which wasn't to far from Justine, so therefore she could have seen Justine's hand then and not necessarily before she served.

Chadwixx
05-09-2005, 02:56 PM
ya but thats after the fact, it wouldnt have affected her ball going in or out.

if u drop ur head upon impact the ball usually goes in the net , i believe her serve was long.

i dont understand this "Once you hit the ball during the serve you are going to be looking in the direction you hit the ball". with the pace serena serves, by the time she saw the ball (after the serve), it would have landed already, or within a half sec. hard to make a judgement in that amount of time unless ur looking for an excuse.

aj_m2009
05-09-2005, 03:09 PM
ya but thats after the fact, it wouldnt have affected her ball going in or out.

if u drop ur head upon impact the ball usually goes in the net , i believe her serve was long.

i dont understand this "Once you hit the ball during the serve you are going to be looking in the direction you hit the ball". with the pace serena serves, by the time she saw the ball (after the serve), it would have landed already, or within a half sec. hard to make a judgement in that amount of time unless ur looking for an excuse.

Whatever dude, I don't really care anymore. It's obvious half of you didn't see the match, and then the other half have never hit a serve before.

Chadwixx
05-09-2005, 03:18 PM
no need to get mad, just a friendly debate.

once she takes her eyes off the ball (and looks at the opponent) the ball has left her racket, thus her excuse of missing because of the hand isnt valid. if she did see the hand before she started the motion she was trying an unsportmans like gesture and it backfired.

aj_m2009
05-09-2005, 03:21 PM
Don't worry, I'm not getting mad, I'm just stating what seems to be a fact.

What I don't get is why would she serve if she saw her hand? It would be stupid to do that. I understand Serena doesn't exactly make the smartest choices sometimes but I don't think she is that dumb.

fedfan
05-09-2005, 04:04 PM
i think we scared justine fanatic away

rlbjr
05-09-2005, 05:25 PM
Chad, do you only see what you are directly looking at? Or, like the rest of us, do you have periferal vision that allows you to notice objects and motion even when you are not looking directly at it? Either way, you are completely missing the point. The point is, if the serve had gone in, it would not have counted because Hennin had signaled 'not ready'. She is allowed to do this under the rules due to outside interference, ie. crowd interference. The returner CANNOT have it both ways, if it's out it's a fault and if it's in it doesn't count. Therefore Serena was entitled under the rules to a first serve whether she saw Justin or not and whether Justins action caused the fault or not. Normally the umpire would have seen the hand up, clearly he did not. Serena just as clearly did and when the umpire looked the question at her her OBLIGATION under the code, rules of fair play and just basic character was to ackowledge the hand up and admit to it. Obviously she chose not to ant continued to obfuscate in the press conference.

It can't be stated any clearer and if you still don't get it you either don't know tennis, didn't see the match at all or are deliberately obtuse.

Justine Fanatic
05-09-2005, 05:38 PM
Bingo! Henin's a cheat!
Wow! I'm not a Henin fan and I merely call her a greaser. Now that you have brought this up, there was a penalty for illegal coaching assessed against her, wasn't there? along with every other tennis player, no doubt.

Yes Sharapova - on many, many occasions.

AND BTW I only said Justine cheated to SHUT YOU ALL UP BECAUSE YOU ARE GETTING VERY BORING WITH THE SAME RECORD.

GET OVER IT - HAVE NONE OF YOU GOT A LIFE? Why don't you start on Coria - he is the biggest cheat isn't he? This board is so boring - are you all Old Age Pensioners? Except Gugafanatic of course and the ones who support Justine and her wonderful talent.

aj_m2009
05-09-2005, 05:43 PM
...This board is so boring...

If this board is so boring why are you still posting here???

PS
What has Coria done(sorry, never seen him pull anything like holding up his hand and then denying it lol, or faking injuries lol)?

Justine Fanatic
05-09-2005, 05:46 PM
millions dont think of justine as a cheat, its just a few morons who don't understand the rules.

EXACTLY!!! Haven't they got a life? 2 years and they are still going on about it and with a lot of energy.

She has millions of fans around the world and doesn't give one iota to what people think of her on this board!

She is back and getting better than she was before, so that's what the real problem is - Justine haters don't like it and will blame her for something that happened 2 years ago. She acted like most players would act except it's not made a big deal out of because it wasn't against Serena Williams. What made it worse was the RG crowd knew what Serena had done and went against her. I'm sure the Williams' PR company had quite a bit to do with the report of it afterwards.

Chadwixx
05-09-2005, 05:47 PM
i dont think u understand the concentration lvl when hitting a serve. u focus at the ball looking up for about 1 sec. its not like a groundstroke where u can see the opponent peripherally. i seriously doubt she saw the hand until after the ball was hit.

maybe on the club lvl u look around when u toss the ball but big hitters dont. i serve about as hard as serena and i can tell u when the toss goes up, im not looking around.

either way its a minor complaint on henin (which occured vs the most disliked person on the tour. debate that if u want, but when 100 girls are busting their asses then hear serena talk about tennis being 2ndary, no one would like her, or respect her). if thats the worst thing she did, henin isnt too bad.

Justine Fanatic
05-09-2005, 05:55 PM
i dont think u understand the concentration lvl when hitting a serve. u focus at the ball looking up for about 1 sec. its not like a groundstroke where u can see the opponent peripherally. i seriously doubt she saw the hand until after the ball was hit.

maybe on the club lvl u look around when u toss the ball but big hitters dont. i serve about as hard as serena and i can tell u when the toss goes up, im not looking around.

either way its a minor complaint on henin (which occured vs the most disliked person on the tour. debate that if u want, but when 100 girls are busting their asses then hear serena talk about tennis being 2ndary, no one would like her, or respect her). if thats the worst thing she did, henin isnt too bad.

Thank you!

Chris Evert-Awful
05-09-2005, 05:55 PM
Cheater or not, she still bugs me. Her fervour is so vulgar. Her autistic incanting of "allez" after every point...her husband must have such performance anxiety!

Chadwixx
05-09-2005, 06:10 PM
not to drag this on or anything but throw u a ball like ur going to serve. the left arm and shoulder being raised blocks the left corner of ur eye when facing the backhand corner serving (typical serving stance). if she served like roscoe tanner or a right handed goran where she faces the net and throws the ball low, into the court id agree with u.

Bertchel Banks
05-09-2005, 07:16 PM
It really boils down to this... How much responsibility does a professional tennis player have in assisting the umpire with his decisions?

Utter nonsense!! The umpire's head was focused in Serena's direction. How professional would it have been fore Ulrich to say, "Well Serena, I didn't see her hand therefore I won't ask her anything, so let's just forget abut it, k."

True the rules state that it's the umpire's job to officiate. The rules also states that a point cannot begin until the retruner is ready to return serve, within the allotted time. When the umpire gestured in Henin's direction, she was confirming whether or not Justine was ready to receive. She wasn't seeking assistance with her duty, that would be akin to saying, I decide when you're ready or not ready to return.

not to drag this on or anything but throw u a ball like ur going to
serve.

Boy, I can wait for the chinese to swallow you guys whole.

Phil
05-09-2005, 07:57 PM
Boy, I can wait for the chinese to swallow you guys whole.

What does that MEAN? Are you trying, again, to hijack the thread with another anti-American comment, like you did recently with the "you people elected Bush comment"? Listen, a--ss--hole, if you want to bash America, fine, just find a nice Euro-site where that's what they do all day. But don't cut into the middle of a TENNIS discussion with your bigotry. I'm sure the bitterness that comes with your hellhole of a country either a) getting its *** beat by America or b) getting its *** SAVED by America, or c) BOTH, is shinning through here. My only advice to you is: get over it.

Bertchel Banks
05-09-2005, 08:04 PM
Actually it was D) We get fat being protected by America.

Chadwixx, I believe is from Oz.

Northerly
05-09-2005, 08:07 PM
I'm with Evert - JHH "bugs" me too. Can't really pinpoint why either. It's a package of little irritations that all add. The Serena thing, the drip, the injuries, the 'allez'...

Phil
05-09-2005, 08:14 PM
Also, as Dedans once said, she's a beady-eyed little s**nk. That kinda bugs me...but no getting around it, she's also a helluva player. I would pay good money for that backhand.

Bertchel Banks
05-09-2005, 08:16 PM
What does that MEAN? Are you trying, again, to hijack the thread with another anti-American comment, like you did recently with the "you people elected Bush comment"? Listen, a--ss--hole, if you want to bash America, fine, just find a nice Euro-site where that's what they do all day. But don't cut into the middle of a TENNIS discussion with your bigotry. I'm sure the bitterness that comes with your hellhole of a country either a) getting its *** beat by America or b) getting its *** SAVED by America, or c) BOTH, is shinning through here. My only advice to you is: get over it.

a)My Vietnamese cousin Ming Li said we won that war.
b)You owed us one from your "Revolution"

Typical Right-Wing Liberalism=Anti-Americanism

Phil
05-09-2005, 08:17 PM
Actually it was D) We get fat being protected by America.

Chadwixx, I believe is from Oz.

Ahh...a welfare state. So buy your own protection, for a change, instead of trying to sell it to...CHINA!

Chadwixx
05-09-2005, 08:22 PM
what the heck are u guys talking about?

Bertchel Banks
05-09-2005, 08:38 PM
So buy your own protection, for a change, instead of trying to sell it to...CHINA!

At least we let they pay for it. That's a lot smarter then handing them your economy in a wicker backet.

Phil
05-09-2005, 08:40 PM
a)My Vietnamese cousin Ming Li said we won that war.
b)You owed us one from your "Revolution"

Typical Right-Wing Liberalism=Anti-Americanism

I have no idea what you're talking about, but Vietnam? Look who's now practically begging for favorable trade terms from the US. Look who's opened their main port to American naval visits...why, none other than the Democractic People's Republic of Vietnam. So yes, sooner or later, even the so-called victors get owned.

Bertchel Banks
05-09-2005, 08:50 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about

France

Look who's now practically begging for favorable trade terms from the US.

What do you expect them to do after being isolated. Doesn't change the fact that they won.

Phil
05-09-2005, 09:14 PM
In the end, we won...it just took awhile. Isolation was part of the strategy, though I personally didn't agree with that policy. We just picked-up where FRANCE had REALLY lost, I mean, not just policically but militarily (no surprises there), and cleaned it up. Just took 40 years-way too long.

lothar
05-09-2005, 10:45 PM
I think some of us have gone off on a tangent here. For those wanting to talk about politics or being "anti-American" and such, go bicker at one another in the "Odds and Ends" or some place where such talk is relevant. If you want to verbally bash one another, do that elsewhere. It truly is a a sign of weakness to have to resort to name-calling and teasing.

I don't think Justine necessarily cheated, so much that she did not come forward to say that she raised her hand. Was she required to correct the umpire? Certainly not. Would it have been more of a righteous thing to do? Perhaps. But ultimately, what did she do? She left it up to the official, whose job it is to make such decisions.

Most of what you have to say is speculation. What was going through her head? What did the umpire ask? What was implied in the conversation they had? No possible way any of you can know. Were any of you in her situation? I think it's rather bold to make such a judgment on other people without analyzing ones' self. Have we all been completely honest all the time?

Some of you people are so adamant about being picky and trying to find faults with every player that's on top. "Serena looks like a dog, Maria is an immature child, Kim is ugly, Lindsay is old, Martina Hingis is a brat, Capriati is a baby and now Justine is a cheater." Just stop and enjoy the game. It's not supposed to be personal. Justine have a great all around game, Serena is a great athlete, Martina is/was very skilled player, and so on.

Justine's integrity was not up to some people's standards but so far many of you have not been up to mine. So what? You are not here to impress me and she is for sure not here to impress you. One incident does not make her a bad person, lest we all are greasy and terrible people. I'm sure she's taken this incident and has grown. Look how she handled the Capriati match. She could have seriously hurt her body to prove to you bitter and hateful people that she is a great athlete. (Referring to how she did not seek medical attention during the match, though it was clearly necessary, as seen after the use of needing an IV).

Just stop! It's because of people like some of the ones here that I can't wait to get out of high school

Justine Fanatic
05-10-2005, 03:22 AM
Fantastic post Lothar. Let's hope this stops all the immaturity and Judge Judy's!

Camilio Pascual
05-10-2005, 04:19 AM
millions dont think of justine as a cheat, its just a few morons who don't understand the rules.

True, she's just a greaser.
I disagree with you about the rules, I have found that most TENNIS players don't understand the rules, let alone TeeVee watchers.

Camilio Pascual
05-10-2005, 04:21 AM
have u ever hit a serve? after the ball is thrown ur head goes up (sometimes the head goes up with the arm). so serena must have seen justins hand before she tossed the ball (a quick serve, poor sportsmanship), or this is made up.

For this to be a conversation with me, you are going to have to answer my question about your off-court criteria first instead of asking another question.

cedric13
05-10-2005, 06:17 AM
Hi

I'm Belgian. Belgian as Clijsters and Henin.

Henin is very disliked here. She has a such attitude.
She's used to talk a lot about her privacy in stupid newspaper, making her
incredible, that it's normal she earned all what she has, that she's the best.

Few months ago she acted for a public comedy show. The little movie
she was in showed her back from winning a tournement and having a drunk
and lazy father at home. A total drunk father. Nothing was hilarous, it
was pathetic. If she has problem with her dad, no need to put him down
in public in a such way.

After that, way way way more Belgian disliked her.

I'm not giving you my opinion about her, just telling you how she's mainly
seen here in Belgium.

We're proud of course to have 2 such players with Clijsters and Henin.
But it came to a situation that in any tennis club I've spent time lately, if
she's on tv, everyone hopes she loose.

Bertchel Banks
05-10-2005, 06:32 AM
It truly is a a sign of weakness to have to resort to name-calling and teasing.


That right Luther, tell him like it is.

Bertchel Banks
05-10-2005, 06:58 AM
I don't think Justine necessarily cheated, so much that she did not come forward to say that she raised her hand. Was she required to correct the umpire? Certainly not. Would it have been more of a righteous thing to do? Perhaps. But ultimately, what did she do? She left it up to the official, whose job it is to make such decisions....Most of what you have to say is speculation.

Who do you think you are coming in here like some sort of Queen bee?
If the match was a TV program edited to elicit emotion I could understand defending Henin. It wasn't, however, and her dishonesty is part of the historical record. It's personalities like yours who would deny the holocaust happened (despite the evidence), or be 100% certain Iraq had nuclear weapons (despite the non evidence).

In this case I'd say the umpire was unsighted. Out of courtesy to Serena, a participant in the match, she asked Justine, the other participant, if she raised her hand.

Was she required to correct the umpire? Certainly not.

Yes she was. She's supposed to be a professional. The rules also state that once you're ready, you can't be un-ready. So there, she broke the rule and she lied.

Bertchel Banks
05-10-2005, 07:09 AM
We just picked-up where FRANCE had REALLY lost, I mean, not just policically but militarily (no surprises there), and cleaned it up.

We blew our load giving birth to you guys (remember that?). So you'll always owe us.

The tennis guy
05-10-2005, 09:38 AM
Yes she was. She's supposed to be a professional. The rules also state that once you're ready, you can't be un-ready. So there, she broke the rule and she lied.

Tell us where the rule says once you are ready, you can't be un-ready? You can't make up rule that doesn't exist to justify your arguement.

Bertchel Banks
05-10-2005, 11:45 AM
Be prepared to use non-verbal communication...This can be done with a nod or a hand signal...A nod with eye contact will answer [unasked questions]. -- USTA Official Umpire Handbook.

A-ha, so there is such a thing as non-verbal communication. I'll find the ready/un-ready rule later...

Dedans Penthouse
05-10-2005, 12:10 PM
We blew our load giving birth to you guys (remember that?). So you'll always owe us.
I found this to be a brilliant quote (albeit, a tad superfluous after the first two words, no?). Not to be a smark-***, but the way I understood it, I was told that the preponderance of mustaches on men in your country stemmed from a desire to hide the "stretch marks." I mean, what other place refers to their own capital as "swinging" London?

I once asked a man on the street in London: "Excuse me Bryan with a "Y" Tumbleweed, but how do you say the number SIXTY-EIGHT?" and he replied:
"How do you say Sixty-eight in London? Simple: 'DO ME NOW AND I'LL OWE YOU ONE LATER'!" I asked him what comes after the number 68 and he replied "69" but when I asked him what came after 69 he coyly (and "boyly") cooed "mouthwash." (RAZZ!)

I wanted to go see the movie "Honey, I Blew Up the Kids" while I was over there, but all's they played was a locally filmed sequel: "Honey, I Blew Everyone."

Alex Trebeck, I'd like "Swallow-the-Leader" for $500 please."

...superfluous indeed.....;-)

Chadwixx
05-10-2005, 12:23 PM
Be prepared to use non-verbal communication...This can be done with a nod or a hand signal...A nod with eye contact will answer [unasked questions]. -- USTA Official Umpire Handbook.

A-ha, so there is such a thing as non-verbal communication. I'll find the ready/un-ready rule later...

look at the wta and atp rules, not the usta. this isnt a club tournament :)

Bertchel Banks
05-10-2005, 12:23 PM
Tell us where the rule says once you are ready, you can't be un-ready?

A reciever who attempts to receive service shall be considered as being ready. -- ITF's Rules of Tennis

There.

Bertchel Banks
05-10-2005, 12:25 PM
I found this to be a brilliant quote (albeit, a tad superfluous after the first two words, no?).

non.









.

fedfan
05-10-2005, 01:05 PM
i think what bugs me the most is that she refuses to apologize or at least come out and say she was wrong. its the least she could do.

The tennis guy
05-10-2005, 01:15 PM
A reciever who attempts to receive service shall be considered as being ready. -- ITF's Rules of Tennis

There.

It said nothing about whether you can be un-ready from being considered ready.

Rabbit
05-10-2005, 01:59 PM
Be prepared to use non-verbal communication...This can be done with a nod or a hand signal...A nod with eye contact will answer [unasked questions]. -- USTA Official Umpire Handbook.

A-ha, so there is such a thing as non-verbal communication. I'll find the ready/un-ready rule later...

Not to be a stickler, well maybe so, you're quoting the USTA Official Umpire Handbook. I take it from the previous diatribe that you understand that the US in USTA is United States? The match in question was not under the jurisdiction of the USTA, rather the French Tennis Federation. I don't know for sure, but I would think that they have a different set of guidelines for French Officials. Further, I would assume the the ITF has a different set of guidelines for the Grand Slam tournaments.

As to a player being ready and then un-ready, it happens all the time. I've seen players ready to return serves and someone behind the server is not seated. The reciever will come out of their ready stance and hold up their hand. With regard to the Williams/Henin match, I think the only reason the Williams got upset was the closeness of the contest. Had she been blowing Henin out, she never would have made an issue. Henin was wrong to not admit that she had her hand up, but Williams may/may not have seen her hold her hand up and continued anyway to provoke a situation.

Kaptain Karl
05-10-2005, 02:21 PM
I'm Belgian. ... Henin is very disliked here. ... But it came to a situation that in any tennis club I've spent time lately, if
she's on tv, everyone hopes she loose.I suspected as much. (Welcome to TW, cedric.)

- KK

lothar
05-10-2005, 02:44 PM
Who do you think you are coming in here like some sort of Queen bee?
If the match was a TV program edited to elicit emotion I could understand defending Henin. It wasn't, however, and her dishonesty is part of the historical record. It's personalities like yours who would deny the holocaust happened (despite the evidence), or be 100% certain Iraq had nuclear weapons (despite the non evidence).

Yes she was. She's supposed to be a professional. The rules also state that once you're ready, you can't be un-ready. So there, she broke the rule and she lied.

Once again, people love going off on a tangent. I'm not sure how my personality has anything to do with tennis or why it is people like myself that there is any speculation about the Holocaust or Iraq. Your ignorace is showing, now stop that.

Somehow I doubt that any objective tennis record will state, "And Justine Henin won the French Open...and she cheated." That's just silly.

She broke no rule, else she would have been disquilified. The fact that her title was not stripped from her gives evidence to suggest that your accusations are mere opinions. She did not lie, she did not tell the truth...she said nothing. She left it for the umpire to decide and the decision was made. If you would like to be angry, I would say direct it at the umpire. IT WAS THE UMPIRE'S CALL, NOT JUSTINES. Justine went along with her decision that was in her favor. However, I'm not the person to hold on to anger and to an incident that occured over a year ago. Let it go.

Mr. Banks, I'm not quite sure why you'd quote me in a positive attitude and then right after, quote me again to "trash talk" me. Though I will not sit here and waste my time fighting with you, I will simply say that it was hypocritical and made no sense. Thank you.

Kaptain Karl
05-10-2005, 04:22 PM
lothar - You're posting like an idiot.

She broke no rule, else she would have been disquilified.If one cheats and gets caught that's one thing. JHH only "got caught" by those who know the letter and spirit of what sportsmanship is. She cheated in the FO and got away with it, hence she wasn't disquilified [sic].

Most people get caught when they cheat. I can only *hope* JHH tries something like that again. I don't think she'll get away with it next time. (Did you see cedric's post? The Belgians don't even like her.)

[Remember the USO last year, when Capriati tried to "play dumb" in the post-Serena match interview? The tennis-savvy NY crowd booed her *right away* for attempting to "finesse" the truth. IOW, she "got caught" by the "court of public opinion."]

- KK

fedfan
05-10-2005, 05:51 PM
does someone have a video clip of that part of the match? maybe we could figure this out after watching it...

Chadwixx
05-10-2005, 06:09 PM
even if ppl say henin was guilty, the arguement could be made for her youth, and how she has matured since the incident.

so it doesnt matter, it just gives ppl something to debate.

justin beat her and much like serena her fans are looking for excuses.

Chadwixx
05-10-2005, 06:12 PM
lothar - You're posting like an idiot.

If one cheats and gets caught that's one thing. JHH only "got caught" by those who know the letter and spirit of what sportsmanship is. She cheated in the FO and got away with it, hence she wasn't disquilified [sic].

Most people get caught when they cheat. I can only *hope* JHH tries something like that again. I don't think she'll get away with it next time. (Did you see cedric's post? The Belgians don't even like her.)

[Remember the USO last year, when Capriati tried to "play dumb" in the post-Serena match interview? The tennis-savvy NY crowd booed her *right away* for attempting to "finesse" the truth. IOW, she "got caught" by the "court of public opinion."]

- KK

tennis-savvy ny crowd made me laugh. they could put drunk baboons in the stands and it wouldnt make a difference.

this one also made me laugh " JHH only "got caught" by those who know the letter and spirit of what sportsmanship is"

like pete sampras told jared palmer, welcome to the pro's.

Kaptain Karl
05-10-2005, 06:28 PM
... the arguement could [be] made for her youth, and how she has matured since the incident....Still looking for that "maturity" ... in Justine ... in Serena ... in Jennifer ... Maria ... Amelie ... Elena ... Anastasia....

All the above are contributing to my respect for Kim Clijsters, Alicia Molik and Lindsay Davenport.

- KK

Evi
05-11-2005, 06:43 AM
Hi

I'm Belgian. Belgian as Clijsters and Henin.

Henin is very disliked here. She has a such attitude.
She's used to talk a lot about her privacy in stupid newspaper, making her
incredible, that it's normal she earned all what she has, that she's the best.

Few months ago she acted for a public comedy show. The little movie
she was in showed her back from winning a tournement and having a drunk
and lazy father at home. A total drunk father. Nothing was hilarous, it
was pathetic. If she has problem with her dad, no need to put him down
in public in a such way.

After that, way way way more Belgian disliked her.

I'm not giving you my opinion about her, just telling you how she's mainly
seen here in Belgium.

We're proud of course to have 2 such players with Clijsters and Henin.
But it came to a situation that in any tennis club I've spent time lately, if
she's on tv, everyone hopes she loose.


:confused: Well I live in the same country as you do and imo Justine gets popular every week. I was at a tennisclub last saturday when Justine was playing against Schnyder. When they put on the tv everybody joined me in front of the tv and a lot of 'oooooooooh's and 'wow's' were heared all the time. Since her great victories at the Slam's Justine gained fans ... and after her unbelievable run at the OS she did it again. People see through Justine 'icequeen' image now and realise it's the right attitude to be a great champion. Ok Kim has the ability to play the nice girl in front of the camera's (and yes there's a difference when the camera's are running! I call it marketing and it works perfect.) but at this moment Justine has the big titles and I think as a sportswooman .. that's what count.
I worked with both girls several times at Fed Cups/WTA Antwerp and Hasselt and I know both girls are nice to work with.

To proove your '********' reply isn't correct ... here's a column from a Belgian (Flemish) newspaper. It's translated from Dutch and there are probably a lot of mistakes in it but I think the point is clear. (the writer used many symbolic words so it could be weird sometimes ;)) Justine is compared with Eddy Merckx ... could you get a better sort of respect as sportswoman??

Hugo Camps
PASSION & MERCI

You can see on Justine Henin Hardenne how lovely poisson can be. I don't know any other sportsperson (M/F) with that much poisson and passion in her body as our Walloon rascal. If we compare it with Tom Steels spirtit, he's just a custard bunn. Even our leatherman Stefan Everts doesn't win it of our red clay diva when we talk about character. Not even wit a 700pk under his butt.

In Berlin Justine toke her third title in a row. After a year of trouble and sorrow. Insiders had written her off. It was impossible to have a comeback at the top. Also beacause they opend a can of Russians. When we heared she went to Monaco we were 100% sure: just playing tennis as a aftermath for a mother-to-be. It's true: in all off us is a bit off 'Gazzetta dello Sport'.

But anyone who looked in Jusitne's eyes saw the fireflies and knew better. Anyone who looked at the magic in her backhand and loved it, knew even beter. Justine wouldn't give up that easy.

As beautifull as her poisson is her capriciousness. In Berlin she blowed Sharapova off the court as a wooden doll. Against less good oponents she stood there shaking on her leggs with one 'hospitallball' after the other. If she was a dropshot herself that died in the net.

Capriciousness is a sign off big champions. Justine made hers it into art. But there is more 'championsbehaviour'. This Belgian proud doesn't talk that much. She loves to keep it short, measured, with a bit of chagrin. Just like Eddy Merckx in his best days. She doens't care aboiut charisma and things for a good cause doens't need to be seen. I beg her sometimes: Justine let us see your love and get out of your role as 'sportwoman'. It doesn't work.

Nobody has heared Justine laughing out loud. Walking hand in hand with Mister Hardenne? Can't remeber when. A frensh kiss? A mounth isn't a tenniball!! Poisson is beautifull, but it also shows the result of a hurt life. The system Justine Henin.

She has my love. Also my adoration. Born little whe became great. She doesn't let herself blown away by anybody. And all that for a 'childwoman' from a bit more than 1.5 meters. In Berlin she said RG was still far away. "You want get me nervous". I'm already nervous in her place. I'm counting down the days, as Justine Henin clenched fist.

Original text
Hugo Camps
PASSIE & COMPASSIE

Aan Justine Henin kun je zien hoe mooi gif kan zijn. Ik ken geen topsporter (M/V) met zoveel gif en drift in lijf en leden als deze Waalse dondersteen. Gemeten aan de spirit van Justine is Tom Steels een puddingbroodje.

Ook de altijd zo opzichtig in leer gebalsemde Stefan Everts haalt het op karakter niet van de graveldiva. Nog niet met 700 PK onder zijn reet.

In Berlijn pakte Justine haar derde titel op rij. Na een kwakkeljaar met niets dan misère. Insiders hadden haar al afgeschreven. Een comeback aan de top leek onmogelijk. Ook al omdat er een blik stevige Russinnen was opengetrokken. Toen bekend raakte dat Henin in Monaco zou gaan resideren was het vooroordeel helemaal compleet: tennis als naspel voor een moedertje in wording. Het is niet anders: in ieder van ons woedt een Gazzetta dello Sport.

Wie goed naar de vuurvliegen in haar ogen had gekeken, wist beter. Wie het magistrale perfectionisme van haar backhand had gekoesterd, wist nóg beter. Justine zou zich niet zomaar laten afserveren.

Al even mooi als gif is haar grilligheid. In Berlijn ranselde ze Maria Sjarapova weg als een houten pop. Tegen mindere tegenstanders stond ze dan weer te schutteren met de ene ziekenhuisbal na de andere. Alsof ze zelf het dropshot was dat in het net stierf.

Grilligheid tekent grote kampioenen. Justine heeft haar onberekenbaarheid tot kunst verheven.
Er is nog meer kampioenengedrag. Deze Belgische trots heeft weinig zin in praatjes. Ze houdt het graag kort, afgemeten, met een ondertoon van chagrijn. Zoals Eddy Merckx in zijn gloriedagen. Charisma kan haar gestolen worden en werken van barmhartigheid zijn er om niet gezien te worden. Soms smeek ik haar: ‘Justine, val één keer met een woord van liefde of betovering uit die domme Adidasstrepen.’ Het lukt niet.

Nooit heeft iemand Justine Henin horen schateren. Hand in hand lopen met meneer Hardenne? Ik kan het mij niet herinneren. Een onbewaakte tongkus? Een mond is geen tennisbal, zeg. Gif is mooi, maar het staat ook de aandoenlijkheid van een gekwetst leven in de weg. Het systeem Justine Henin.

Mijn liefde heeft ze. Mijn aanbidding ook. Klein geboren, groot geworden. Door niets of niemand omver te blazen. En dat voor een kindvrouwtje van amper anderhalve meter. In Berlijn zei ze dat Roland Garros nog ver weg is. “Mij krijg je niet zenuwachtig.” Ik ben het nu al voor haar. Ik tel de dagen af, als de gebalde vuist van Justine Henin.

Justine Fanatic
05-11-2005, 06:43 AM
Still looking for that "maturity" ... in Justine ... in Serena ... in Jennifer ... Maria ... Amelie ... Elena ... Anastasia....

All the above are contributing to my respect for Kim Clijsters, Alicia Molik and Lindsay Davenport.

- KK

Oh well .... if you say they are mature, then I'm sure they are and if you say the others arn't, then I'm sure they're not. :roll:

Bertchel Banks
05-11-2005, 11:20 AM
With regard to the Williams/Henin match, I think the only reason the Williams got upset was the closeness of the contest.

She didn't throw a McEnroe-esque Pits of the World oncourt tantrum.

Had she been blowing Henin out...

Which she was at that point of the match.

but Williams may/may not have seen her hold her hand up and continued anyway to provoke a situation.

Do you think it's the street level intimidation she learned growing up in Compton?

I'm not sure how my personality has anything to do with tennis or why it is people like myself that there is any speculation about the Holocaust or Iraq.

Simple. Despite the evidence (I have it on tape), you still proclaim that Justine did nothing wrong. The same is true for Holocaust deniers. That's ignorance.

Mr. Banks,

That's me.

I'm not quite sure why you'd quote me in a positive attitude and then right after, quote me again to "trash talk" me.

When I said,That right Luther, tell him like it is, I was responding to line in your message, It truly is a a sign of weakness to have to resort to name-calling and teasing. To elaborate: I've always felt that Phil gets out of hand sometimes, and needs a good tending to. I like the way did it.

Though I will not sit here and waste my time fighting with you, I will simply say that it was hypocritical and made no sense.

1. Who's fighting? I thought I was taking part in a discussion on the principles of sportsmanship. When did this become about Bertie and Lothar?
2. Your comprehension skills are lacking. Question: If a tree falls in the middle of the forest and no one's there, does it make a sound? Did it even fall down?

bustigal
05-11-2005, 01:32 PM
I didn’t anticipate my post would stir so much emotion, hatred, and remarks. Thank you guy/gals.

Here are my closing remarks:

· This is just like the approval of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas 10-15 years ago. All we heard for several months was his alleged joke about the pubic hair in his female colleague’s Coke but nothing about the man’s qualification and his accomplishment, especially from his humble beginning. Well, when the dust settled, Mr. Thomas was our Supreme Court Justice.

· If I say the US is the best nation on earth, I bet some of you would say: “yeah, but the US kills innocent civilians in Iraq.”

· Don’t be confused with what JH had accomplished and her contribution to the game with whether or not you respect her. I don’t like Serena either. She has no respect for any other players (the “Serena Slam” thing was like as if Federer now calling the game of tennis the Federer Sport), no class, no game (she is average if not for that man’s body), and is a bad loser. However, I acknowledge Serena’s contribution to the game. She raised the power level of the women’s game to a new level. For a while, she was at the peak that no one seemed to be able to reach. The William sisters were beating up the weak sisters on the tour until some of the women caught up to them. AND, JH, the female version of Federer, was the first one to take Serena down from the top. For Serena fans, that got to hurt, and I understand. But, keep bashing JH with one little controversial call won’t undermine her accomplishment and contribution to the game. So far, the JH haters have not shown me any solid arguments to disprove JH’s greatness in the making except whining about that call. You got to ask yourselves, beside that call (again, it’s controversial at most), what else have you found and presented to support your arguments.

· Navatalova once told her opponent in the trophy ceremony after losing a final: “You go first, *****; after all, you won, right?” Some of you may have no respect for her personally, but when her career was over, we call her one of the greatests that ever play the game along with Jimbo and JMAC who are not exactly Saints.

. JH supporters, don't let them make you lose focus. This is suppose to be a celebration of JH's accomplishments, not a debate on one controversial call.

· JH Fanatic, why on earth you want to admit JH was cheating, Eaaa..? Since you are on my side, I won’t throw you those choice words, but I suggest you take a debate class. Remember, quantity does not equal to quality. Sometime, the more some people open their mouths, the more they show what a “blipping” idiot they are.

· Pascual, may I borrow you quote: "Resentment is like taking poison and hoping the other guy dies." This is exactly what you are doing to JH. You might have found a cool quote, but you have not shown that you understand it and live by it.

· Cedric13, come on, man, you are not Belgian, and you are even not living in Belgium. If you are, you should be shame of yourself. Many small countries like Belgium are dying to have someone like JH. She is your national hero, and you should let her carry the national flag on your next Olympics. But you bash her, Ohhh..! Besides good chocolates, what else do you guys have in Belgium if you trash your national hero like that because of your little trivial personal vendetta?

· Evi, great find. I am proud of you and JH. You are the real Belgians!

· Again, you JH haters can go on forever with that controversial call. Waste more energy and loose some sleep, too. Let say 2000 posts by end of this month on that call. When you get there, I will salute you once again with with Pascual’s quote: "Resentment is like taking poison and hoping the other guy dies." There you have it. So long and keep posting.

Kaptain Karl
05-11-2005, 02:43 PM
I didn’t anticipate my post would stir so much emotion, hatred, and remarks. Thank you guy/gals.What a moronic review! There's been *some* emotion ... and *no* hatred, as far as I can see.

This is just like the approval of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas 10-15 years ago.Stupid analogy.

Don’t be confused with what JH had accomplished and her contribution to the game with whether or not you respect her.Asinine instruction.

Navatalova [sic] ... Some of you may have no respect for her personally, but when her career was over, we call her one of the greatests that ever play the game....I cannot stand Navratilova, personally. But her record makes her truly one of the all time greats. JHH is a LLLOOONG way from being compared to MN. (Another stupid comparison.)

... Remember, quantity does not equal to quality. Sometime, the more some people open their mouths, the more they show what a “blipping” idiot they are.Same goes for long boring posts ... like yours.

Cedric13, come on, man, you are not Belgian...You've made a charge you simply cannot support. (Idiotic claim....)

- KK

Chadwixx
05-11-2005, 04:08 PM
u guys need to stop insulting ppl whom u dont agree with, u act like ur posts are any more valid than theirs. just because u have more posts or use perf grammer doesnt mean ur arguements are anymore valid.

the facts are the facts, serena got beat and cried after the match blaming everyone but herself. 1 point doesnt make a match unless ur a mental twinkie, or its match point.

lothar
05-11-2005, 04:23 PM
[quot]

Simple. Despite the evidence (I have it on tape), you still proclaim that Justine did nothing wrong. The same is true for Holocaust deniers. That's ignorance.

2. Your comprehension skills are lacking. Question: If a tree falls in the middle of the forest and no one's there, does it make a sound? Did it even fall down?

I have it on tape, too. I think that she did nothing wrong, though I did not say she did anything right either. It seems like you have this idea that I'm biased in favor of her. I'm not her fan, I'm someone who saw the match and made an assessment as objective as I can be. I like her game, but I'm no member of her fan club. Tennis is a sport for competition, not a testament of one's morality. She was not required to say anything. Her job is to play the match inside the rules, which she did in saying nothing.

The tree made a sound, since sound is defined as vibrations that can be heard and measured. And the tree did fall, as was stated at the beginning of the question. What was your point? "If I close my eyes, is the world still there?" Are you trying to promote solipsism?

And once again, you're starting a personal attack on me, which I shall not lower myself and succumb to a quarrel with you.

And quit calling me Luther.

scoot
05-11-2005, 04:33 PM
Good post lothar. Also, these people attacking Justine's character b/c of 1 incident should try to look at the big picture. I'd bet 99% of the pros have done things in competition that they are not so proud of; its part of being human. We make mistakes. But if you look at Justine over the course of her entire career, she has been nothing but a wonderful sportswoman, very gracious. Unlike Serena, Coria, ASV, Ferrero & a host of others all of who've been pieces of sh*t consistently. I would never judge another persons character based on 1 incident (which happened to be a high pressure situation).

fedfan
05-11-2005, 07:54 PM
I didn’t anticipate my post would stir so much emotion, hatred, and remarks. Thank you guy/gals.

were you suprised? how can you say that she is the greatest without expecting feedback by people who are disagreeing with you? even people that post that federer may be the greatest of all time expect to disproved. next time think before you post such a ridiculous and stupid quote.

Bertchel Banks
05-11-2005, 09:15 PM
the facts, serena got beat and cried after the match blaming everyone but herself. 1 point doesnt make a match unless ur a mental twinkie, or its match point.

This from a man/boy/twinkie whose government opened fire on a refugee ship in the middle of shark infested seas. Hush Twinkie. Okay you don't like Serena, I understand. As an Australian it's a given that unless there's a group to hate you're miserable. Fact is, Justine is a liar and a thief. Evidence is abound.

Phil
05-11-2005, 09:19 PM
You obviously have NOTHING to say about tennis, don't know anything about it, so your only possible response is to equate all of the posters here with the actions of their respective governments. You're a joke, now; a true troll if there every was one. BTW, Bertel, for everyone's reference here, which country do you belong to?

Bertchel Banks
05-11-2005, 10:05 PM
It seems like you have this idea that I'm biased in favor of her. I'm not her fan, I'm someone who saw the match and made an assessment as objective as I can be.

Ha. Any objective viewer of the incident will conclude that Justine was wrong.

I like her game, but I'm no member of her fan club. Tennis is a sport for competition, not a testament of one's morality. She was not required to say anything. Her job is to play the match inside the rules, which she did in saying nothing.

It may not be on the books, but the spirit and heritage of the game demanded that she spoke up. She was wrong. True, I only watch her when she plays my faves, but I admire her courage and fight. Infact, we have too much in common astrologically for me to dislike her. Also, I find her a refreshing alternative to the whiny and ungraceful Amelie Mauresmo.

Are you trying to promote solipsism?

No.

And once again, you're starting a personal attack on me...

Untrue. You were the one who waltzed in here called me weak. You were the one who just yesterday called me a hypocrite. You were the one who accused me of going off on nonsensical tangents...so what if I think Kristof Vliegen looks like a Pygmy when he's about to serve. So What?

which I shall not lower myself and succumb to a quarrel with you.

What do you mean succumb? And when did this become Bertie v. Lothar? Sportsmanship: The Unwritten Rule, that's the issue. Bertie dominates Lothar on TW messageboards, that's not it. Bertie to whip Lothar in likely best of 3/superset oncourt encounter, that's not it either. Bertie: "Disqualified" , Lothar: "Disquilified"...Bertie 3, Lothar 0... Sportsmanship and tennis, again, that's the issue.

And quit calling me Luther.

If you insist.

Bertchel Banks
05-11-2005, 10:18 PM
You obviously have NOTHING to say about tennis, don't know anything about it, so your only possible response is to equate all of the posters here with the actions of their respective governments. You're a joke, now; a true troll if there every was one. BTW, Bertel, for everyone's reference here, which country do you belong to?

Why, so you can color me happy with a vodka in hand and a domestic/farm animal/beating heart to shag. You hurt my feelings, Phillip, so as punishment I'm not telling you.

Phil
05-11-2005, 10:25 PM
Does that mean you're from Wales? Anyway, just as I thought...too embarassed to do so-because I'm sure whatever place you're from has just as many nasty things to say about it as any other place. However, don't mistake YOU for the rest of us-I don't think anyone will hold it against you personally-where you're from. You provide plenty of ammo, and laughter without having to resort to ****ging your nationality.

Bertchel Banks
05-11-2005, 10:41 PM
I don't mean to be rude, but it's almost 2am around here...gotta go.

cedric13
05-12-2005, 12:09 AM
:confused: Well I live in the same country as you do and imo Justine gets popular every week. I was at a tennisclub last saturday when Justine was playing against Schnyder. When they put on the tv everybody joined me in front of the tv and a lot of 'oooooooooh's and 'wow's' were heared all the time.

I'm curious about where do you live in Belgium ?
I agree she plays well, I agree she has a "nice to see" tennis.
But she's disapointing as person.

To proove your '********' reply isn't correct ... here's a column from a Belgian (Flemish) newspaper. It's translated from Dutch and there are probably a lot of mistakes in it but I think the point is clear. (the writer used many symbolic words so it could be weird sometimes ;)) Justine is compared with Eddy Merckx ... could you get a better sort of respect as sportswoman??

Up to you to think I wrote a "****" reply. I tell you most ppl dislike her here.

Now would you think a Belgian newspaper would put down a player like Henin ? (who I agree does great results)

Newspaper are biased.
I'm not. I don't give a damn about her, I tell you facts I see.
Make your own opinion, believe me or not, it won't avoid me to sleep at night.

Now to compare her to Eddy Merckx, I wouldn't...let's wait she wins all grand slam before doing that, since Merckx won nearly all what was possible to win.

Last point, always disapointing to read in forum personal attacks like I've read in some other topics and write replies with "*****" . It show the maturity of the writer.

and btw, Malisse isn't very well liked too.

Justine Fanatic
05-12-2005, 12:53 AM
· JH Fanatic, why on earth you want to admit JH was cheating, Eaaa..? Since you are on my side, I won’t throw you those choice words, but I suggest you take a debate class. Remember, quantity does not equal to quality. Sometime, the more some people open their mouths, the more they show what a “blipping” idiot they are. .

Hi bustigal

What a fantastic post - love it.

The reason I said that to firstly shut him up and secondly I was being sarcastic. Bustigal, I couldn't be bothered to argue with that moron anymore, so I was being very, very sarcastic. Sorry if it didn't come across that way.

Thanks for supporting me and once again - FANTASTIC POST! Some of these people on this board are weird. Do they not have a life? Anyway, I'm off on my holidays 2 week cruisin around the Med), so enjoy the debate. I hope it's finished by the time I return!

sandiegotennisboy
05-12-2005, 01:29 AM
once a cheater, always one in my book. i'll never look at her as one of the greats. what she did was wrong and she failed to admit it. yeah she's talented, but yeah she cheated.

scoot
05-12-2005, 03:41 AM
I can only hope youre as accepting of your own mistakes.

fedfan
05-12-2005, 04:27 AM
The reason I said that to firstly shut him up and secondly I was being sarcastic.

youre terrible at lying.

Chadwixx
05-12-2005, 09:24 AM
This from a man/boy/twinkie whose government opened fire on a refugee ship in the middle of shark infested seas. Hush Twinkie. Okay you don't like Serena, I understand. As an Australian it's a given that unless there's a group to hate you're miserable. Fact is, Justine is a liar and a thief. Evidence is abound.

what was a refugee ship doing in shark infested waters? i have no clue what ur talking about, and why is this being posted on a tennis msg board?

if u cant stick to the topic please dont post, i dont care what ppl from terd world countries think about us policy.

Dedans Penthouse
05-12-2005, 11:15 AM
i dont care what ppl from terd world countries think about us policy.
"Terd world" .... I like it! :-)

Bertchel Banks
05-12-2005, 07:47 PM
if u cant stick to the topic please dont post, i dont care what ppl from terd world countries think about us policy.

Hush Twinkie. Outside of "Serena Sucks" you haven't added anything tennis related or substantial to this thread in days.

If you want to call a country where "Nads:You Grow 'em, We Help You Rip 'em Off," is the runaway bestselling and clinically approved female grooming product first world, go right ahead.

what was a refugee ship doing in shark infested waters? i have no clue what ur talking about, and why is this being posted on a tennis msg board?

Doing Phil's dirty laundry again, eh? I swear, you two are joined at the hip. Toss off. But first, if you don't want off topic chatter, don't ask off topic questions. Now, toss off.

Chadwixx
05-12-2005, 08:51 PM
regroup and post something worthy of a response

Chloe
05-12-2005, 09:14 PM
That was a hilarious 6 pages. Thank you to everybody who had nothing better to do than contribute to this topic at great length (yes, I also had nothing better to do than contribute to this topic, though not yet at great length).

Now that this has been beaten to death, why don't we talk about how Justine CHEATED her way to the Australian Open title by using her evil ways to persuade the umpire into overruling THE linecall?

Chloe
05-12-2005, 09:15 PM
regroup and post something worthy of a response
Absolutely nothing on this page is worthy of a response. It's all worthy of a few giggles though.