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View Full Version : Nadal Wants Less Tournaments on Hard Courts (AGAIN)


AM95
03-27-2010, 06:06 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-1261205/Injury-riddled-Rafael-Nadals-plea-play-fewer-tournaments-hard-courts.html

should we just eliminate the hard court surface in general rafa?

djokovicgonzalez2010
03-27-2010, 06:08 PM
He says as he plays doubles with unknowns...

slicefox
03-27-2010, 06:19 PM
ye when you get outplayed you start to blame the game.

luckyboy1300
03-27-2010, 06:21 PM
hard courts have been there for a very long time already. the only solution is to speed up the hard courts so their effects on the body will be minimized by shorter rallies. let the slow court play be played on natural surfaces where long rallies are not that damaging.

Jchurch
03-27-2010, 06:29 PM
It is simple. Don't play doubles. That should cut his time on hard courts a lot. I would also consider domed football similar to hardcourts with only astroturf in between the two player and huge slabs of concrete.

coyfish
03-27-2010, 06:32 PM
His only option at this point seems to change his game to be softer on his knees. Its unlikely his knees will get better so at this point nadal's future is becoming fainter and fainter unfortunately.

Lsmkenpo
03-27-2010, 06:33 PM
What does he think basketball is played on, clay?

Semi-Pro
03-27-2010, 06:36 PM
Few tips for Rafa:

Stop playing doubles.
Change your tactics on hard courts.
Manage your schedule better.

abmk
03-27-2010, 06:48 PM
hypocrisy at its finest !

jamesblakefan#1
03-27-2010, 06:58 PM
"I am not watching football on a hardcourt or basketball being played on a hardcourt, so this is something that we have got to think a little more about."

Basketball isn't played on hardcourt? WTF is Nadal retarted?

Rafa, for the last time, stfu about the schedule. The message may be right - the season is too long, but that includes clay as well. It's simple, if you're hurt, don't play. He didn't seem to have a problem w/ that at Wimbledon, but now at Miami and IW he's playing singles and doubles and wants to complain about the schedule? Just shut up and play or (don't) play. Simple as that.

big ted
03-27-2010, 06:59 PM
i dont understand why players complain about the season being too long.. if they dont like it, why dont they just play the # of tournaments they want to play, and let the tour fine them, (its pocket change to them anyway)... ala the williamses, federer now, pat cash and muster before, etc...

tintin
03-27-2010, 07:26 PM
if most tournaments were played on clay;the likes of Andy Roddick;James Blake and Mardy Fish and even Andy Murray would all retire:lol:

wouldn't be a bad thing if you ask me:lol:

MotherMarjorie
03-27-2010, 07:40 PM
That's pretty a pretty self-serving statement from Nadal, considering he's only managed one grand slam win on hardcourts. I'm sure he wished most tournaments were all clay, but what makes players great like Federer is the ability to adapt and win on all court surfaces.

Funny thing, you never hear Federer or Roddick stating there should be less clay court tournaments. They never complain about that sorta stuff.

Once the US Open went hardcourt, followed by the Australian Open, hardcourt tennis was here to stay in the majors.

dmt
03-27-2010, 07:54 PM
. I'm sure he wished most tournaments were all clay, but what makes players great like Federer is the ability to adapt and win on all court surfaces.
.

yes because Nadal has only won on claycourts, he's never adapted and won on any other surface. :)

Semi-Pro
03-27-2010, 08:04 PM
yes because Nadal has only won on claycourts, he's never adapted and won on any other surface. :)

I don't think that was his point. His point probably was no one else really makes a big fuss about surfaces other than Nadal and a few others...

I could be wrong, but that's what I got out of it.

yemenmocha
03-27-2010, 08:10 PM
hard courts have been there for a very long time already. the only solution is to speed up the hard courts so their effects on the body will be minimized by shorter rallies. let the slow court play be played on natural surfaces where long rallies are not that damaging.

+1, great post.

No need to make them "fast"... just make them like they used to, which wasn't so boringly slow like they are now. Return them to normal. Faster points, more variety in playstyles will be prevalent (FFS please no more baseliners).

Mr.Brightside
03-27-2010, 08:12 PM
you mean fewer tournaments

Buckethead
03-27-2010, 08:13 PM
If he doesn't like it,just don't play them,just as i don't like the 3 hours 3 sets clay court tournaments,he has his right not to like it.I would definitely like to see a grass season with more time and tournaments.
No wonder why he doesn't like it,because he can't win them anymore and just get beaten.

Justdoit10
03-27-2010, 08:17 PM
lol. Everyone knows that basketball is played on tempur-pedic mattresses... ...oh wait, never mind.

MotherMarjorie
03-27-2010, 08:24 PM
.I would definitely like to see a grass season with more time and tournaments.
Tennis used to be played primarily on grass for Grand Slam and circuit events (minus the French Open). However, hardcourts cost less to maintain and less of a headache for tournament directors.

The problem with a lengthier grass court season is the date of the French Open Championships. Its silly that five months pass between the AO and French Open, and only four weeks between the FO and Wimby.

I agree, it would be nice to see more grass court tennis.

dmt
03-27-2010, 08:32 PM
I would like to see atleast one masters 1000 event played on grass. I do think if there was a longer grass court season, it'd be better as players would have more time to practice on that surface. I enjoy grass court tennis so it'd be fun, unfortuantely its unlikely it'll happen. the grass court "season" is just too short.

OddJack
03-27-2010, 08:57 PM
The article does not make it clear when those comments have been made.

Daily Mail does not look like a credible web site.

VilasFan
03-27-2010, 09:16 PM
Few tips for Rafa:

Stop playing doubles.
Change your tactics on hard courts.
Manage your schedule better.

^^^this!

10 char

ninman
03-27-2010, 09:18 PM
What's indoor football played on? Rafa seriously, stfu. I'm going to write to sky sports and demand that they ask him for an explanation. In their interview they have to say.

So Rafa you want less hardcourt tournaments is that right?

yes, blah, blah, blah.

Ok, don't you think that's rather hypocritical given that you play doubles when you don't have to, and you also play lots of smaller tournaments, that you don't have to, and you play your long grinding clay court game on hardcourts?

bluetrain4
03-27-2010, 09:28 PM
It is simple. Don't play doubles. That should cut his time on hard courts a lot. I would also consider domed football similar to hardcourts with only astroturf in between the two player and huge slabs of concrete.

I think "Fieldturf" and its imitators have gone a LONG way in improving football playing surfaces. Maybe not as forgiving as natural grass but miles better than first generation Astroturf, which was used for a long time, and really was simply a thin layer of utility carpet laid over concrete.

quest01
03-27-2010, 09:31 PM
What do you expect, Nadal is always injured of course he wants less hard court tournaments. His style of play is designed for injuries and a career that will last before he reaches 30.

namelessone
03-27-2010, 10:32 PM
hard courts have been there for a very long time already. the only solution is to speed up the hard courts so their effects on the body will be minimized by shorter rallies. let the slow court play be played on natural surfaces where long rallies are not that damaging.

Nailed it. The problem is that these hard surface are hard on the joints,not just Nadal's joints and that some surfaces have been slowed down,with HC being half of the tour. It's not just Nadal that plays long rallies,two thirds of today's players play long rallies on HC,even those who have flatter strokes and a serve,unlike Rafa.

And it's not like he can quit these events. Nadal is a professional tennis player and he wants to do his best on tour so he has to enter some HC events.8 out of 9 masters are mandatory and the non mandatory one is a clay one,6 out of the 9 masters are on HC. I'm pretty sure that the GS's are mandatory as well and two of those are on HC and skipping them is not an option(and even if it were can you imagine the media backlash,look at all the lip nadal got for skipping WB with a injury). The doubles argument is irrelevant,he cuts his practice short and plays doubles. In the end it is the same time on court.

To those who say Nadal has not adapted to HC: The guy won 5 HC masters(made a total of 9 HC masters final),won 1 HC GS and made 2 consecutive SF appearances at AO and USO. Other than Federer,which player has adapted to all surfaces,if we look at their titles?

Djoker is good on clay and HC but isn't that good on grass.
DelPo is good on clay and HC but is cumbersome on grass.
Same goes for Davydenko.
Murray is good on HC and grass but is a mediocre claycourter.
Soderling is good basically only on HC.
Roddick is great on HC and grass but ****** on clay.
Cilic is too young to call but probably HC and perhaps grass will be his strong suit.
Tsonga is only good on HC.

I understand that HC has been around for a while and it is cheaper to maintain but really,is there no money in tennis for more grass court tourneys? Clay is well represented with 2 months in the calendar and 3 masters + 1 GS. HC is over represented with 6 masters and 2 GS's,not to mention countless 500 and 250 events. Grass is f****d,with basically 1 GS and 1 warm-up event(queens or halle). Yes,it is a tricky and expensive surface but why does tennis run away from natural surfaces nowadays?

jamesblakefan#1
03-27-2010, 10:49 PM
Nailed it. The problem is that these hard surface are hard on the joints,not just Nadal's joints and that some surfaces have been slowed down,with HC being half of the tour. It's not just Nadal that plays long rallies,two thirds of today's players play long rallies on HC,even those who have flatter strokes and a serve,unlike Rafa.

And it's not like he can quit these events. Nadal is a professional tennis player and he wants to do his best on tour so he has to enter some HC events.8 out of 9 masters are mandatory and the non mandatory one is a clay one,6 out of the 9 masters are on HC. I'm pretty sure that the GS's are mandatory as well and two of those are on HC and skipping them is not an option(and even if it were can you imagine the media backlash,look at all the lip nadal got for skipping WB with a injury). The doubles argument is irrelevant,he cuts his practice short and plays doubles. In the end it is the same time on court.

If Nadal quit Wimbledon, he shouldn't fear quitting Miami if he's injured. "Mandatory" is more of a suggestion than anything else - if Nadal says he's hurt, it's not like the ATP is going to force him to play. Even if he's not really "hurt", he can say he needs the rest for his chronic knees and the ATP would be more than likely to grant him that without any problem. So don't pull the "mandatory" card. Guys pull out of MS events w/ injury all of the time, nothing's stopping Nadal from resting his knees anytime it is necessary.

The tour should not have to change to fit Nadal - Nadal should have adjusted his scheduling a long time ago as to not end up in the situation he was in @ RG last year. Sure the season is too long, but there are ways around that and there's nothing wrong w/ taking a MS event off here or there. But the bigger issue is Nadal's poor scheduling, which went on for far too long and obviously has taken its toll. You say 50% of the season is HC, well 45% of the season is CC, so what gives, you know? :)

There are clay tournaments running all the way from February to the end of July. So clay is in no way underrepresented. And yes I agree w/ more grass, but the problem isn't too many HC, as most of the HC events are well spread out and not mandatory. Nadal can't play 2 weeks in a row on HC? Perhaps he's more fragile than we thought. Sorry to be so harsh, but you have to realize that this is just more whining from Nadal. Like I said the message may be right, but it gets old hearing the same tired complaints from Nadal about the HC being the source of his injuries, and not overscheduling during the CC season every year. Doing stuff like playing a CC event in Stuttgart after he made the Wimby final in 07 (and had been banged up in that 4th set if you remember), playing Barcelona every year in the middle of the already crowded CC season, complaining about Madrid last year but still playing in it, playing doubles in certain events, doesn't grant Nadal any sympathy from me. Sorry.

namelessone
03-27-2010, 11:21 PM
If Nadal quit Wimbledon, he shouldn't fear quitting Miami if he's injured. "Mandatory" is more of a suggestion than anything else - if Nadal says he's hurt, it's not like the ATP is going to force him to play. Even if he's not really "hurt", he can say he needs the rest for his chronic knees and the ATP would be more than likely to grant him that without any problem. So don't pull the "mandatory" card. Guys pull out of MS events w/ injury all of the time, nothing's stopping Nadal from resting his knees anytime it is necessary.

The tour should not have to change to fit Nadal - Nadal should have adjusted his scheduling a long time ago as to not end up in the situation he was in @ RG last year. Sure the season is too long, but there are ways around that and there's nothing wrong w/ taking a MS event off here or there. But the bigger issue is Nadal's poor scheduling, which went on for far too long and obviously has taken its toll. You say 50% of the season is HC, well 45% of the season is CC, so what gives, you know? :)

I don't think Nadal is injured in Miami,I have not heard him say anything about this. Plus,there is another problem with Nadal: he doesn't know how to tank events he does not want to be in(see madrid). I have seem fed,djoker,murray do tank jobs early on,Nadal almost always goes to quarters or further on in big events. And like I said before there is always a media backlash,look what happened to murray when he quit marseille. Federer can be excused if he chooses to skip a event because he is GOAT,28 years old and is full of titles.

Nadal,Djoker,Murray on the other hand are young guys and they are expected to be there day in,day out,especially a mega-star like Nadal. When he skipped WB,there was real sense of disappointment among the crowd and public media even though there were enough quality players to replace him. And that was at WB. Imagine how a tournament director of a smaller tourney must feel when he has one or two top players at his tourney and they don't show up,he loses money,viewership goes down etc. While they don't have to do some of these events,there is a lot of pressure on them to go play.

45% of the tour is clay? Right. Maybe so,but the events that matter(from 500 events onwards),almost two thirds of them are on HC,with clay and grass getting the other third. Not exactly fair is it?

10% carpet(fast),20% grass(fast or slow),30% clay(slow) and 40% HC(whatever speed) for the big events would be a great spread of synthetic and natural surfaces. 50 % natural surfaces,50% synthetic. You would have fast surfaces for S&V'ers and a realm for baseliners as well. Nowadays it's more like 60% HC,30% clay and 10% grass(and I am being generous here,cause grass is basically two events,but I say 10% cause one is a slam).

Also,some of you have said that Nadal plays his clay game on HC and grass. But is anyone forced to adapt today? I saw soderling and delpo play their ballbashing game on all surfaces,with varying levels of success. I don't see any difference in what davydenko does from surface to surface.Same for djoker. Even Federer,who we is an all-rounder,plays the same baseline game with few variations from surface to surface. Reading TTW,you would think that all these guys end points really quickly but they all have long rallies on ALL SURFACES,the difference being that those guys can get some free points with the serve(or they can setup a point with the serve).

My point is that,all players have to play long rallies today(S&V is pretty much dead) but instead of balancing natural surfaces with synthetic ones,they put the players on joint pounding HC in two out of three major events and then we all wonder why many top10'ers have health issues. This is without mentioning the length of the tour. It is easy to say skip this and skip that but when you are trying to stay both healthy and competitive and most events are on HC,you have no choice but to go ahead and play(unless you are physically unable to play).

jamesblakefan#1
03-28-2010, 12:00 AM
You act as if it's such a big burden to take events off. JMDP pulled from Cincy last year b/c he was just flat out tired from winning Washington and making finals of Canada. It's no big burden to pull from events. Nadal really should worry about people in the media complaining? You really think Nadal should play b/c the media would complain if he didn't? By this point everyone realizes that Nadal's knees are chronic, and he's going to break down sooner or later. So him playing less HC events would be looked at as good, not looked at as him being expected to be there.

Murray got flak because he pulled out at the last second seemingly for no reason and played Dubai the week after Marseille. Totally different situation. Nadal shouldn't be playing any 250s at this stage of his career.

This is the ideal schedule for Rafa

Warmup for AO (maybe not even a tourney, do an exho like Kooyong- easier on body)
AO
*rest*
Dubai
IW
Miami
*rest*
Monte Carlo
Rome
Madrid
RG
Queens (maybe pull out of Queens if he's tired after a long run @ RG)
Wimbledon
*rest*
Canada
Cincy
USO
*rest*
Beijing
Shanghai
Paris
WTF

I'm not buying the whole "Rafa needs matchplay on HC in order to stay competitive" thing. Last year as soon as he comes from injury he makes Canada QF, Cincy SF, and USO QF. So Nadal has proven that he doesn't need to play alot on HC, or any surface really, to get a good rhythm and play at a relatively high level. There's no need for him to enter extra events just to "stay competitive" - at this point his main goal should be staying healthy during the smaller events and MS events, and peaking and being fully fit for the slams. It's worked for Fed, Nadal's a veteran at this stage of his career, not a young gun, he should know by now what it takes to win on HC and shouldn't need to play extra tourneys just to "stay in rhythm".

And maybe at this point Nadal should make a decision guys like Roddick, Fed, Blake, have made and not play DC unless totally necessary. I know Rafa loves playing DC, but at this point his body should be his #1 priority, even ahead of DC commitments. For the most part he does that, but now even moreso he should just come out and say he's not going to play DC this year like Roddick, Fed, and Blake did. Again, if Nadal's knee issues are as chronic as he makes them seem at times, he should do whatever it takes to extend his career an extra 2-3 years, he can't run around like a rabbit playing every tourney under the sun. His mind may say he's 23, but his knees say he's 33.

TheTruth
03-28-2010, 02:37 AM
I don't think Nadal is injured in Miami,I have not heard him say anything about this. Plus,there is another problem with Nadal: he doesn't know how to tank events he does not want to be in(see madrid). I have seem fed,djoker,murray do tank jobs early on,Nadal almost always goes to quarters or further on in big events. And like I said before there is always a media backlash,look what happened to murray when he quit marseille. Federer can be excused if he chooses to skip a event because he is GOAT,28 years old and is full of titles.

Nadal,Djoker,Murray on the other hand are young guys and they are expected to be there day in,day out,especially a mega-star like Nadal. When he skipped WB,there was real sense of disappointment among the crowd and public media even though there were enough quality players to replace him. And that was at WB. Imagine how a tournament director of a smaller tourney must feel when he has one or two top players at his tourney and they don't show up,he loses money,viewership goes down etc. While they don't have to do some of these events,there is a lot of pressure on them to go play.

45% of the tour is clay? Right. Maybe so,but the events that matter(from 500 events onwards),almost two thirds of them are on HC,with clay and grass getting the other third. Not exactly fair is it?

10% carpet(fast),20% grass(fast or slow),30% clay(slow) and 40% HC(whatever speed) for the big events would be a great spread of synthetic and natural surfaces. 50 % natural surfaces,50% synthetic. You would have fast surfaces for S&V'ers and a realm for baseliners as well. Nowadays it's more like 60% HC,30% clay and 10% grass(and I am being generous here,cause grass is basically two events,but I say 10% cause one is a slam).

Also,some of you have said that Nadal plays his clay game on HC and grass. But is anyone forced to adapt today? I saw soderling and delpo play their ballbashing game on all surfaces,with varying levels of success. I don't see any difference in what davydenko does from surface to surface.Same for djoker. Even Federer,who we is an all-rounder,plays the same baseline game with few variations from surface to surface. Reading TTW,you would think that all these guys end points really quickly but they all have long rallies on ALL SURFACES,the difference being that those guys can get some free points with the serve(or they can setup a point with the serve).

My point is that,all players have to play long rallies today(S&V is pretty much dead) but instead of balancing natural surfaces with synthetic ones,they put the players on joint pounding HC in two out of three major events and then we all wonder why many top10'ers have health issues. This is without mentioning the length of the tour. It is easy to say skip this and skip that but when you are trying to stay both healthy and competitive and most events are on HC,you have no choice but to go ahead and play(unless you are physically unable to play).

Can't argue with that. Did you happen to see the list djokovicgonzalez put up? The list of the wounded is unreal. They are effectively driving their biggest stars into early retirement which will ultimately lead to less interest in tennis, lower revenue, and less air time. I can't remember all of them, but...

Roddick-back from injury
Nadal-back from injury
Haas-injured list
Del Potro-injured list
Davydenko-injured list
Simon-back from injury
Nalbandian-back from injury

Feel free to add to this list

The bottom line is this isn't about Nadal, it's about the overall health of the tour. Modifications need to made, and when you put your "talent" on the worst surface for the majority of the year, your greed is causing you to shoot yourself in the foot.

P_Agony
03-28-2010, 02:41 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-1261205/Injury-riddled-Rafael-Nadals-plea-play-fewer-tournaments-hard-courts.html

should we just eliminate the hard court surface in general rafa?

Why is he playing doubles then? Nadal's a cool guy, but this is getting annoying.

dmt
03-28-2010, 02:45 AM
dailymail is a stupid site anyway, who knows when this article is from, dailymail is by no means a reliable site.

aldeayeah
03-28-2010, 03:10 AM
By the way, when he says football he means soccer, which in Europe in a proffesional level is exclusively played on natural turf (big teams make a fuss all the time when they're forced to play on artificial turf).

Although in the case of basketball, his point is moot. However, hard courts are suitable for basketball because the kind of movements the sport requires.

In the case of tennis, on a hard court, one just can't use all the physical capabilities of the body without eventually hurting oneself. See Hewitt, Monfils, Nadal.

This harms players who are good athletes and who use a grinding style and benefits players who are good at hitting winners and positioning.

Is that a bad thing? Well, I think it is, but I know it's arguable.

The thing is, hard courts are staying and that's because of money. Football (soccer) is a huge cash cow in Europe so every team can afford a natural lawn field. It's also played every week. On the other hand, tennis venues are used by pros once a year and don't have the same kind of money to spare. It's a complex matter.

ninman
03-28-2010, 03:49 AM
Can't argue with that. Did you happen to see the list djokovicgonzalez put up? The list of the wounded is unreal. They are effectively driving their biggest stars into early retirement which will ultimately lead to less interest in tennis, lower revenue, and less air time. I can't remember all of them, but...

Roddick-back from injury
Nadal-back from injury
Haas-injured list
Del Potro-injured list
Davydenko-injured list
Simon-back from injury
Nalbandian-back from injury

Feel free to add to this list

The bottom line is this isn't about Nadal, it's about the overall health of the tour. Modifications need to made, and when you put your "talent" on the worst surface for the majority of the year, your greed is causing you to shoot yourself in the foot.

What are the causes of the injuries? How about players like Federer, who have played many, many hard court tournaments and it has never caused him an injury? How many players have had injuries because of clay or grass? Your list is meaningless. It's also more meaningless because Nadal plays doubles on hardcourts, which is not required, and plays many other tournaments that are not required.

raiden031
03-28-2010, 04:35 AM
http://www.funny-pictures.biz/Funny%20Pictures/rants/CheeseWithThatWhine-2.5-wid.gif

Anaconda
03-28-2010, 04:42 AM
Here's a good idea. Maybe the ATP should speed up the hard courts and then fatigue won't play such a big part.

All-rounder
03-28-2010, 04:53 AM
Yet he plays double's.................:-?

Mustard
03-28-2010, 05:46 AM
I don't think that was his point. His point probably was no one else really makes a big fuss about surfaces other than Nadal and a few others...

Nadal plays a very physical style that's demanding on the joints, and hardcourts are the worst for this.

Semi-Pro
03-28-2010, 07:18 AM
Nadal plays a very physical style that's demanding on the joints, and hardcourts are the worst for this.

And whose fault is that?

He should really stop complaining and take some initiative. (ie. the ones I mentioned on the previous page)

Gorecki
03-28-2010, 07:25 AM
lets make a compromise and every time he complaints about the surfaces, we just bum this thread instead of creating a new one?

TennezSport
03-28-2010, 08:19 AM
Look what happened to Wimbledon when enough clay court specialists(CCS) complained and even boycotted the event because it was too fast. Could only be played by S&V specialists. The clay courters got their way and the big W courts and balls were slowed down, with the HCs next homogenized.

My issue with this is that the same CCS are the first to tell you that you have to learn how to play on clay as it teaches you how to develop and better thinking game. Well I say that fast Grass teaches you how to be a better S&V and touch player and you should learn how to play both to be a better all around player.

As far as Rafa's complaint, I saw this coming 4 years ago after watching him practice at the USO. I am actually surprised that it took this long to happen which is a testiment to his mental strength. He really needs to stop whining and learn how to plan his schedule better, or he is finished; plain and simple.

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

namelessone
03-28-2010, 08:46 AM
As far as Rafa's complaint, I saw this coming 4 years ago after watching him practice at the USO. I am actually surprised that it took this long to happen which is a testiment to his mental strength. He really needs to stop whining and learn how to plan his schedule better, or he is finished; plain and simple.

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

Sorry if I did not understand but what did you see coming 4 years ago at the USO? Nadal complaining about HC? I did not understand cause you mentioned mental strength and I did not understand how these two issues were related.

mandy01
03-28-2010, 08:51 AM
lets make a compromise and every time he complaints about the surfaces, we just bum this thread instead of creating a new one?
If we haven't had a compromise on GOAT threads so far I don't really see this happening :lol:

MethodTennis
03-28-2010, 09:01 AM
CARPET .....

dh003i
03-28-2010, 09:03 AM
Look what happened to Wimbledon when enough clay court specialists(CCS) complained and even boycotted the event because it was too fast. Could only be played by S&V specialists. The clay courters got their way and the big W courts and balls were slowed down, with the HCs next homogenized.

My issue with this is that the same CCS are the first to tell you that you have to learn how to play on clay as it teaches you how to develop and better thinking game. Well I say that fast Grass teaches you how to be a better S&V and touch player and you should learn how to play both to be a better all around player.

As far as Rafa's complaint, I saw this coming 4 years ago after watching him practice at the USO. I am actually surprised that it took this long to happen which is a testiment to his mental strength. He really needs to stop whining and learn how to plan his schedule better, or he is finished; plain and simple.

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

I agree, it is unfortunate the clay-court specialists have been allowed to manipulate the ATP into changing playing conditions.

dmt
03-28-2010, 09:08 AM
based on what did the clay courters "force" wimbledon organizers to change its grass? Didnt they change the grass because it was more durable?

cork_screw
03-28-2010, 09:27 AM
I would LOVE to see more varied surfaces. Watching clay is fun, and I would love to see Grass more. But what are you going to do? Try growing grass in the desert of Indian Wells or Dubai during the summer? I think clay is a more european thing and wouldn't carry well in the states. But these players do choose which tournaments they want to enter. There are tournaments that they need to or are forced to enter like all of the masters series events and GS, but the hardcourts are probably most managable and universally supported. But I DON'T think that long rallies on clay would decrease the fatigue factor of playing a calendar year or relieve them of this seeing as how many clay matches are grueling and run into long extended sets. Most athletes retire around 31-34 in all professional sports anyways, just like how it is in tennis already. If we shorten the season it would really hurt the lesser ranked players who need to enter into the smaller tournaments to win prize money and boost ranking points so they don't clash against a Federer in the second round. So there are reasons for everything, I think Nadal is just speaking for his own situation. I'm sure if you talked to Starace or Fognini you would get a different story seeing as how they've played close to 30 tournaments already (and don't suffer from injuries like the Nadals), whereas Murray has only played in 17 because he can afford to. Pacing yourself is the key, but that's only a luxury that top 10 players can afford to do.

Mustard
03-28-2010, 09:37 AM
And whose fault is that?

It's not a question of fault, just that there are too many hardcourt tournaments compared with clay-court and grass-court tournaments.

With major hardcourt tournaments, we have:

Australian Open
Indian Wells
Miami
Toronto/Montreal
Cincinnati
US Open
Shanghai
Paris
World Tour Finals

With major clay-court tournaments, we have:

Monte Carlo
Rome
Madrid
French Open

And with major grass-court tournaments, we only have:

Wimbledon

I love Queen's Club, but it's only a 250 event on an official basis.

Nadal is at his best on clay, and I'd say that grass is his second best surface, which means the opportunity for him to rack up points on his favourite surfaces is limited, and the style he has to play to beat Federer is very demanding on his body.

He should really stop complaining and take some initiative. (ie. the ones I mentioned on the previous page)

He should scale back a bit as well, I agree. His scheduling certainly isn't the best.

miniRafa386
03-28-2010, 09:40 AM
heres what nadal should do:

AO
Dubai
IW
Miami
Rome
Madrid
RG
Wimby
Toronto
USO
Beijing
Paris
WTF

Mustard
03-28-2010, 09:49 AM
I think Nadal should do this schedule:

Australian Open
Indian Wells
Miami
Monte Carlo
Barcelona
Rome
French Open
Queen's Club
Wimbledon
Toronto/Montreal
Cincinnati
US Open
Paris
World Tour Finals
Davis Cup matches throughout the year

But he needs to reduce the numbers of doubles matches.

All-rounder
03-28-2010, 10:06 AM
^^^^^^^^

There's no point making these schedules for nadal he's never going to change his anyway

Gorecki
03-28-2010, 10:08 AM
If we haven't had a compromise on GOAT threads so far I don't really see this happening :lol:

many people here believe we need to focus on creating threads like the "Cincy the real slam"...

mandy01
03-28-2010, 10:18 AM
many people here believe we need to focus on creating threads like the "Cincy the real slam"...
...and I'm one of them .:D
Suresh's work needs to be recognized and his footsteps must be followed.

Murray Mound
03-28-2010, 10:23 AM
Tennis would ne better off with four unique surfaces.

The AO should either change to:

1- har tru
2- carpet
3- rebound ace

All-rounder
03-28-2010, 10:27 AM
Delete post

All-rounder
03-28-2010, 10:28 AM
delete post

Mustard
03-28-2010, 10:30 AM
Nadal trying to blast Nalby off the court.......It's not working

That's not Nadal's strength. Nadal's strength is to grind his opponents down with his relentless play in the rallies.

TennezSport
03-28-2010, 10:45 AM
Sorry if I did not understand but what did you see coming 4 years ago at the USO? Nadal complaining about HC? I did not understand cause you mentioned mental strength and I did not understand how these two issues were related.

Sorry if I did not explain that very well. I have been tracking players performance for many years now and in Rafa's case I knew that he would eventually have trouble with his legs in some way. I have seen this so many times with upcoming players, many who never made the pros because of it. His complaining about hard courts is coming from his concern about his injuries and if it will shorten his career. He needs to learn how to schedule better as he will not change his style of play now. Hope that explains it better.

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

TennezSport
03-28-2010, 10:52 AM
based on what did the clay courters "force" wimbledon organizers to change its grass? Didnt they change the grass because it was more durable?

I did not say "force", but when you have top players boycotting a tourny that means loss of revenue. They had already made the court more durable when they changed from rolling to pounding the courts and in the grass mixture in 2000, but it was still very fast. The fact that the big servers owned the event did not help but the boycott was the final straw.

BTW, I do not blame the CCS as they have their points, I put it squarely on the tourny organizers as they not only chaged the courts but the balls were slowed also (by opening the cans a week ahead of the tourny); that was not necessary.

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

TennezSport
03-28-2010, 10:55 AM
I would LOVE to see more varied surfaces. Watching clay is fun, and I would love to see Grass more. But what are you going to do? Try growing grass in the desert of Indian Wells or Dubai during the summer? I think clay is a more european thing and wouldn't carry well in the states. But these players do choose which tournaments they want to enter. There are tournaments that they need to or are forced to enter like all of the masters series events and GS, but the hardcourts are probably most managable and universally supported. But I DON'T think that long rallies on clay would decrease the fatigue factor of playing a calendar year or relieve them of this seeing as how many clay matches are grueling and run into long extended sets. Most athletes retire around 31-34 in all professional sports anyways, just like how it is in tennis already. If we shorten the season it would really hurt the lesser ranked players who need to enter into the smaller tournaments to win prize money and boost ranking points so they don't clash against a Federer in the second round. So there are reasons for everything, I think Nadal is just speaking for his own situation. I'm sure if you talked to Starace or Fognini you would get a different story seeing as how they've played close to 30 tournaments already (and don't suffer from injuries like the Nadals), whereas Murray has only played in 17 because he can afford to. Pacing yourself is the key, but that's only a luxury that top 10 players can afford to do.

I couldn't have said it any better :)

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

CCNM
03-28-2010, 11:07 AM
*sigh* what else is new? I'm no expert but I'm sure the sport's greatest players are/were able to change their game for the different surfaces and to accommodate their bodies as they got older. I agree with most of you-Rafa either needs to change his game, play less tournaments, or retire. :(

Pink_Shirt
03-28-2010, 01:50 PM
I agree, Nadal needs to stop playing doubles. Or atleast wait to do them on another surface.

nCode747
03-28-2010, 02:38 PM
Well I mean the guy probably played on a hard court the first time in his life when he was 17. And the tour is dominated with mostly hard courts, You can see where his logic comes from. But hard courts are the cheapest to maintain and we can't just change the rules for him.

TheTruth
03-28-2010, 02:47 PM
Look what happened to Wimbledon when enough clay court specialists(CCS) complained and even boycotted the event because it was too fast. Could only be played by S&V specialists. The clay courters got their way and the big W courts and balls were slowed down, with the HCs next homogenized.

My issue with this is that the same CCS are the first to tell you that you have to learn how to play on clay as it teaches you how to develop and better thinking game. Well I say that fast Grass teaches you how to be a better S&V and touch player and you should learn how to play both to be a better all around player.

As far as Rafa's complaint, I saw this coming 4 years ago after watching him practice at the USO. I am actually surprised that it took this long to happen which is a testiment to his mental strength. He really needs to stop whining and learn how to plan his schedule better, or he is finished; plain and simple.

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

They boycotted because of the seeding, not the court preparation. This has been proven over and over again.

TheTruth
03-28-2010, 02:50 PM
based on what did the clay courters "force" wimbledon organizers to change its grass? Didnt they change the grass because it was more durable?

The organizers have repeated that ad nauseum. The newer grass was cheaper to maintain, and the clay courters boycotted because Wimbledon seeds their own way and don't always place them in the draw according to the seed they work hard for. If you google it, you'll see. I don't understand why people try to perpetuate this nonsense.

soyizgood
03-28-2010, 02:50 PM
Nadal does some foolish things with his scheduling. He plays doubles in a lot of the events as well. Then bundles in 500/250 series events he could do without (Rotterdam, Dubai, Stuttgart, Monte Carlo, Barcelona, etc.).

His style of play doesn't help matters either. He lacks a huge serve, lacks shots to end points quickly, and he plays his clay style of game on hardcourts which isn't the most optimal way to play on that surface.

He once suggested the ATP do the rankings on a rolling 2 year total. It's not the tour's fault he has never played a full season without breaking down for weeks/months. He comes off as a whiny baby especially when top players 20 years ago played far more events, had to travel much more, and played for much less money. The season obviously isn't too long for him if he can still take part in Shakira music videos...:rolleyes:

TheTruth
03-28-2010, 03:06 PM
Nadal does some foolish things with his scheduling. He plays doubles in a lot of the events as well. Then bundles in 500/250 series events he could do without (Rotterdam, Dubai, Stuttgart, Monte Carlo, Barcelona, etc.).

His style of play doesn't help matters either. He lacks a huge serve, lacks shots to end points quickly, and he plays his clay style of game on hardcourts which isn't the most optimal way to play on that surface.

He once suggested the ATP do the rankings on a rolling 2 year total. It's not the tour's fault he has never played a full season without breaking down for weeks/months. He comes off as a whiny baby especially when top players 20 years ago played far more events, had to travel much more, and played for much less money. The season obviously isn't too long for him if he can still take part in Shakira music videos...:rolleyes:

He does need lessons in Scheduling 101. Plays doubles instead of practicing to cause less wear and tear on his body. He isn't the only one to complain about the season, Federer, Roddick, and others joined him (don't know why he takes the fall for it). A lot of sports writers agree too. The Shakira video took one day and a half while he was off during injury.

Lsmkenpo
03-28-2010, 03:20 PM
Yeah, clay is easier on the body, in direct comparison to time spent on court to a hardcourt.

What is being overlooked is the fact that a claycourt match can last nearly twice as long as a hardcourt match, the matches are generally more grueling and longer on clay, so the argument is somewhat silly.

TheTruth
03-28-2010, 03:23 PM
^^^^

Huh? What did you say?

Lsmkenpo
03-28-2010, 03:32 PM
^^^^

Huh? What did you say?

I guess you must have to be a tennis player to understand, Toots.

The rallies are longer on clay because it is so slow, it is hard to hit winners.

onehandbh
03-28-2010, 04:26 PM
Basketball is played hardwood courts. These are way easier on your
body than the hardcourts of tennis. After playing pickup ball outdoors for
awhile, when you first go indoors it feels really plush.

swordtennis
03-28-2010, 05:36 PM
Hardcourts were designed for speed. Speed them up now ATP.

West Coast Ace
03-28-2010, 06:08 PM
Plays doubles instead of practicing to cause less wear and tear on his body. That is true - unfortunately that's not what Rafa was doing. If you were in Indian Wells you would know he was still out grinding on the practice court between ALL matches.

I had some sympathy for him until I heard Cliff Drysdale say Rafa was known - after he made it to #2 - to practice for 8 hrs. Even on clay that's too much.

I respect Rafa - a ton - but his obsessive compulsive behavior is his problem, not the ATP tour's. There aren't going to be any huge changes to the season - sorry to all you fanboys calling for a lot of hardcourt tournaments to be replaced with clay and grass. He's not going to last on tour as long as Connors, Andre, and Fed - that's just the way it is. Call it Fate - or whatever you believe in. I'm got a bunch of his matches on DVD - the 5 setter AO SF vs. Verdasco is still my favorite - even though he went on to beat Fed in the final (see my avatar).

TheTruth
03-28-2010, 06:21 PM
That is true - unfortunately that's not what Rafa was doing. If you were in Indian Wells you would know he was still out grinding on the practice court between ALL matches.

I had some sympathy for him until I heard Cliff Drysdale say Rafa was known - after he made it to #2 - to practice for 8 hrs. Even on clay that's too much.

I respect Rafa - a ton - but his obsessive compulsive behavior is his problem, not the ATP tour's. There aren't going to be any huge changes to the season - sorry to all you fanboys calling for a lot of hardcourt tournaments to be replaced with clay and grass. He's not going to last on tour as long as Connors, Andre, and Fed - that's just the way it is. Call it Fate - or whatever you believe in. I'm got a bunch of his matches on DVD - the 5 setter AO SF vs. Verdasco is still my favorite - even though he went on to beat Fed in the final (see my avatar).

It's not about fanboyism. The entire tour is suffering. People need to look at the bigger picture, not just one player. I know there are cost considerations regarding other surfaces, but when you're decimating the field it's just plain stupid, imo. I mean really, how many players' careers have been shortened because of the hard courts?

I wasn't at Indian Wells, but I don't trust anything Cliff Drysdale says.

Lsmkenpo
03-28-2010, 07:02 PM
Basketball is played hardwood courts. These are way easier on your
body than the hardcourts of tennis. After playing pickup ball outdoors for
awhile, when you first go indoors it feels really plush.

Yeah right :rolleyes: , a basketball court is hardwood over concrete,as far from plush as you could possibly get, if it were plush you would not even be able to dribble a basketball on it. A clean basketball court also grips your feet much more than any tennis court.

Tennis is pretty much a recreational sport compared to pro or college basketball.

Rafa the paper tiger whining about the tennis courts is like a pro golfer whining he can't use a golf cart to drive from hole to hole.

Justdoit10
03-28-2010, 07:22 PM
Yeah right :rolleyes: , a basketball court is hardwood over concrete,as far from plush as you could possibly get, if it were plush you would not even be able to dribble a basketball on it. A clean basketball court also grips your feet much more than any tennis court.

Tennis is pretty much a recreational sport compared to pro or college basketball.

Rafa the paper tiger whining about the tennis courts is like a pro golfer whining he can't use a golf cart to drive from hole to hole.

Tennis is pretty rough too. Tennis players rarely have any success after the age of 30. In NBA, players are playing till their mid to late 30s.

grimmbomb21
03-28-2010, 07:33 PM
Yeah right :rolleyes: , a basketball court is hardwood over concrete,as far from plush as you could possibly get, if it were plush you would not even be able to dribble a basketball on it. A clean basketball court also grips your feet much more than any tennis court.

Tennis is pretty much a recreational sport compared to pro or college basketball.

Rafa the paper tiger whining about the tennis courts is like a pro golfer whining he can't use a golf cart to drive from hole to hole.

A hardwood court is much easier on your knees than a hard court. You can feel it slightly compress as you run on it. Anyone who has played on both could tell you that.:|

Lsmkenpo
03-28-2010, 07:37 PM
Tennis is pretty rough too. Tennis players rarely have any success after the age of 30. In NBA, players are playing till their mid to late 30s.

No, not really tennis is an individual sport, plenty of players could play longer they would just not win as much.

Go to any club and you will see plenty of seniors and over weight people playing singles tennis, but you won't see many playing full court basketball the sports are not even close in comparison, at any level.

Basketball is a contact sport, constant movement and physical contact, many times you have a player with their forearm in your back pressing against you as hard as they can fighting for position, nothing close to it in tennis.

Lsmkenpo
03-28-2010, 07:48 PM
A hardwood court is much easier on your knees than a hard court. You can feel it slightly compress as you run on it. Anyone who has played on both could tell you that.:|

I played both and had a torn ACL, I think I know which is harder on my knee, no comparison, I really have to watch out playing basketball, tennis I don't even think about it. Basketball court puts way more stress on the joint your foot does not slip at all on a basketball court, a lot more constant stress on the ankles and knees.

This is also the same reason clay is easier on joints than hardcourt, it is the grip of the court
that stresses the joints, not whether it compresses under your foot, tennis hardcourt does not have the grip of a clean basketball court.

JoshDragon
03-28-2010, 07:53 PM
It's not about fanboyism. The entire tour is suffering. People need to look at the bigger picture, not just one player. I know there are cost considerations regarding other surfaces, but when you're decimating the field it's just plain stupid, imo. I mean really, how many players' careers have been shortened because of the hard courts?

I wasn't at Indian Wells, but I don't trust anything Cliff Drysdale says.

Definitely agree with you. Seems like there are a lot of player who are developing knee tendinitis, partly as a result from playing on the hard courts.

ninman
03-28-2010, 07:58 PM
I have yet to hear another top player complain about hard courts. I think that says it all. Personally I think it would be good for tennis to mix it up more though, hard courts take up about 60% of the season so far. I think a longer grass season would be good, bring the French forward by about a month, then you could fit in 2 or 3 more grass tournaments, as well as a masters series.

Li Ching Yuen
03-28-2010, 08:14 PM
The more sad thing about today's tennis is that we don't have a longer grass court season.

Seriously, how expensive and difficult can it be to set up a big grass tournament?
Are these people that run the ATP that obtuse and blind?

80% of the season consists of surfaces that favor long rallies.

Now, wouldn't it be a bit genius to add some variety with a Masters on grass?...plus I think this would draw a lot of attention from the public.

And why did they take out carpet, anyway?

jamesblakefan#1
03-28-2010, 08:56 PM
He does need lessons in Scheduling 101. Plays doubles instead of practicing to cause less wear and tear on his body. He isn't the only one to complain about the season, Federer, Roddick, and others joined him (don't know why he takes the fall for it). A lot of sports writers agree too. The Shakira video took one day and a half while he was off during injury.

Others have complained, but they don't single out one specific surface. A lot of players have said the season is too long, but most realize how to schedule and are more peeved about the amt of tourneys that are required after the USO is already over. But Nadal comes out every year and has the same complaints only about HC, when he goes and plays 5 CC events in a row there's no problem, but 2 HC events in a row and he's whining again.

TheTruth
03-29-2010, 12:53 AM
I have yet to hear another top player complain about hard courts. I think that says it all. Personally I think it would be good for tennis to mix it up more though, hard courts take up about 60% of the season so far. I think a longer grass season would be good, bring the French forward by about a month, then you could fit in 2 or 3 more grass tournaments, as well as a masters series.

Why would the American players complain about hard courts? They grew up on them, aren't that great on grass or clay, and almost 60% of the tournaments benefit them. That's a part of the problem.

The sports medicine articles say hard courts related injury account for 20% of tennis injuries as opposed to 2-3% for natural surfaces.

The other thing the sports experts say is that these hard courts affect not only the knees, but the back and the wrists.

Now, let's look at the injuries and who's getting them, you'd be surprised to find out all of them are being affected by the hard courts.

Clijsters-back injuries
Federer-back injuries
Del Potro-wrist
Davykenko-wrist?
Agassi-back

It doesn't make sense for an entity to not protect its #1 commodity. We have to agree to disagree.

dropshot winner
03-29-2010, 12:58 AM
Why would hardcourt cause more wrist injuries than the other surfaces?

If anything the slightly unpredictable bounces on clay and grass cause more misshits that can lead to wrist injuries.

On clay in particular the rallys are very long and draining, definately much worse for the wrist than a short-point match at the US Open.

TheTruth
03-29-2010, 01:03 AM
Why would hardcourt cause more wrist injuries than the other surfaces?

If anything the slightly unpredictable bounces on clay and grass cause more misshits that can lead to wrist injuries.

On clay in particular the rallys are very long and draining, definately much worse for the wrist than a short-point match at the US Open.

There were some medical terms talking about the impact that goes up your calves and affects the wrists and backs too. There's plenty of information about it on the web, but the articles are long with a lot of medical jargon and I doubt many would waste their time reading it.

truthorbust
03-29-2010, 01:05 AM
What Nadal wants is generally to the benefit of Nadal.. simple as that.

TheTruth
03-29-2010, 01:07 AM
What Nadal wants is generally to the benefit of Nadal.. simple as that.

Who doesn't?

But the knowledge and statistics back him up anyway.

mandy01
03-29-2010, 01:08 AM
Why would hardcourt cause more wrist injuries than the other surfaces?

If anything the slightly unpredictable bounces on clay and grass cause more misshits that can lead to wrist injuries.

On clay in particular the rallys are very long and draining, definately much worse for the wrist than a short-point match at the US Open. We don't even know the exact cause behind Federer's back injury.I think it had more to do with the heavily packed schedule that year(thanks to Olympics).He's had back problems for a long time.2008 wasn't the first time he had the problem.

Yes,natural surfaces ARE more forgiving than HC and I personally love clay but they're a lot harder to maintain.Besides,the ATP tour has MORE pressing matters than always catering to the needs of the top guys.
IMO it's high time they started providing more impetus and assisstance to those players who really need it.

namelessone
03-29-2010, 01:10 AM
Why would hardcourt cause more wrist injuries than the other surfaces?

If anything the slightly unpredictable bounces on clay and grass cause more misshits that can lead to wrist injuries.

On clay in particular the rallys are very long and draining, definately much worse for the wrist than a short-point match at the US Open.

I don't buy the wrist injury argument for HC or for any surface,it has more to do with technique or possibly overuse than surface. However,the surface can definitely mess with your lower body or even your back. The impact on your body is bigger when you move on HC than on clay and grass. You talked about long rallies on clay but really where do we have short rallies? Nowadays tennis players HAVE to play rallies if they want to win tourneys,when have you seen a guy win a GS with a S&V game?

The changes made by the ATP have led to the worst possible outcome for players: lots of rallies played on the toughest surface for the body,in two out of three major tourneys. While you can slip on clay and grass they are softer surfaces for the body,not to mention more traditional ones. I speak from experience,I can play a couple of days on clay no problem,but after a couple of sessions on HC my ankles really hurt. It got better once I kept playing on HC but the transition from clay to HC is not easy IMO.

dropshot winner
03-29-2010, 01:46 AM
I don't buy the wrist injury argument for HC or for any surface,it has more to do with technique or possibly overuse than surface. However,the surface can definitely mess with your lower body or even your back. The impact on your body is bigger when you move on HC than on clay and grass. You talked about long rallies on clay but really where do we have short rallies? Nowadays tennis players HAVE to play rallies if they want to win tourneys,when have you seen a guy win a GS with a S&V game?

The changes made by the ATP have led to the worst possible outcome for players: lots of rallies played on the toughest surface for the body,in two out of three major tourneys. While you can slip on clay and grass they are softer surfaces for the body,not to mention more traditional ones. I speak from experience,I can play a couple of days on clay no problem,but after a couple of sessions on HC my ankles really hurt. It got better once I kept playing on HC but the transition from clay to HC is not easy IMO.

Fully agree. No doubt that hard surfaces put a lot of pressure on the ankles, knees, hips and back, but I don't see how it would make any difference to the wrists.

The current state of the surfaces really is far from healthy, but in Nadal's case he should appreciate them.

He still hasn't reached a final at either Cinicinatti or US Open, which are some of the few surfaces still not fully slowed down.
The solution is easy, Nadal needs to skip more hardcourt tournaments.

ninman
03-29-2010, 01:53 AM
Why would the American players complain about hard courts?

Show me in my post where I talk about American players?

drakulie
03-29-2010, 05:23 AM
Oh brother..... it is embarasing Nadal doesn't just shut up and play out his remaining days.

Djokovicfan4life
03-29-2010, 05:45 AM
Oh brother..... it is embarasing Nadal doesn't just shut up and play out his remaining days.

Uh oh, step aside Breakpoint, looks like a new TW guru is in the works.

ReturnWinner
03-29-2010, 05:48 AM
What a whiner, this guy is doing this **** since 2005 when whined about masters cup surface and then next year They changed the surface due to him.

omniexist
03-29-2010, 06:03 AM
Really would like to see more grass tournaments and they should knock Wimbledon back a few more weeks what's up with that?

fps
03-29-2010, 06:13 AM
Really would like to see more grass tournaments and they should knock Wimbledon back a few more weeks what's up with that?

Wimbledon is the biggest tennis tournament in the world and it's timed perfectly for the English, it's not going to move.

I think it's overplaying in the CLAY season last year that destroyed nadal. He shouldn't have played Barcelona. there MUST be a move to more grass courts. Get the guys at Queens to advise on new courts in America and Europe, make it the same kinda pace as Wimbledon, perfect, easier on the knees, and all kinds of styles can make progress through a draw if you're brave enough and good enough.

reversef
03-29-2010, 06:24 AM
Funny thing, you never hear Federer or Roddick stating there should be less clay court tournaments. They never complain about that sorta stuff.



Of course since there are not many CC tournaments.

MotherMarjorie
03-29-2010, 06:25 AM
That is true - unfortunately that's not what Rafa was doing. If you were in Indian Wells you would know he was still out grinding on the practice court between ALL matches.

I respect Rafa - a ton - but his obsessive compulsive behavior is his problem, not the ATP tour's.
Thank you for pointing that out.

If players like Clijsters would stop "split sliding" on hardcourts, the injuries wouldn't be as prevelant.

Matt H.
03-29-2010, 06:25 AM
Basketball is played on a wood floor.

It has *some* give to it.

A tennis hard court has *zero* give to it.

When you move your body, stop, and change direction hard like the movements required in tennis there has to be absorption of the force created. On grass, carpet, wood, rubber, clay, etc. the surface itself takes some of the force.

With concrete, there is no give whatsoever and thus the joints and tendons absorb 100% of the energy. Go do some sprints on an asphalt track and compare that to sprinting on a rubber track.

So, I do see Nadal’s point. The game has evolved and rallies are much longer than in the past. Injuries are definitely adding up for pro tennis. The Sony Ericsson this year is missing a ton of names.

The problem for Nadal is that he hasn’t done everything he can on his part yet. Everyone has pointed out the doubles playing. If his knees are that bad, why is he wasting time playing doubles?

reversef
03-29-2010, 06:27 AM
I don't think that was his point. His point probably was no one else really makes a big fuss about surfaces other than Nadal and a few others...

I could be wrong, but that's what I got out of it.

Hard courts are not forgiving for the body, everybody knows that. Of course, players who are at their best on HC don't complain about the huge number of tournaments played on the surface since it's good for their results. Grass lovers have been resigned for a long time: it's too expansive and they can't expect to see grass dominate the tour.

reversef
03-29-2010, 06:31 AM
So Rafa you want less hardcourt tournaments is that right?

yes, blah, blah, blah.

Ok, don't you think that's rather hypocritical given that you play doubles when you don't have to, and you also play lots of smaller tournaments, that you don't have to, and you play your long grinding clay court game on hardcourts?

Doubles don't cost so much, it's like practicing. A tennis player is forced to practice during tournaments and Nadal uses the doubles that way when he plays.
He doesn't play that much by the way. Djokovic or Davydenko play more tournaments than him.

Semi-Pro
03-29-2010, 06:36 AM
Double post...:S

Semi-Pro
03-29-2010, 06:36 AM
Hard courts are not forgiving for the body, everybody knows that. [I]Of course, players who are on their best on HC don't complain about the huge number of tournaments played on the surface since it's good for their results. Grass lovers have been resigned for a long time: it's too expansive and they can't expect to see grass dominate the tour.

Of course, but hard courts are also not meant to be used as clay courts (ie sliding).

Players who play their best adapt to the court that are playing on, meaning not risking further injury that could be sustained when sliding on hard courts for example.

You are right.

Semi-Pro
03-29-2010, 06:40 AM
Doubles don't cost so much, it's like practicing. A tennis player is forced to practice during tournaments and Nadal uses the doubles that way when he plays.
He doesn't play that much by the way. Djokovic or Davydenko play more tournaments than him.

I think it was in another thread that somebody stated that even though Nadal was playing doubles in IW he was still practicing for extended periods of time.

Yes but their play is more efficient than Nadals.

drakulie
03-29-2010, 06:47 AM
Nadal practices **HARD** for about two hours, then plays doubles. The next day, he practices **HARD** for another two hours, and then plays singles. This goes on for the course of the tournament, or until he gets knocked out of one event. I saw it last year, and again this year.

He is an idiot who needs to shut up or stop playing so much.

One more thing, playing on clay for 3 hours vs playing on hard for 1.5 is a "wash". Both are just as taxing on the body.

swordtennis
03-29-2010, 06:51 AM
Nadal practices **HARD** for about two hours, then plays doubles. The next day, he practices **HARD** for another two hours, and then plays singles. This goes on for the course of the tournament, or until he gets knocked out of one event. I saw it last year, and again this year.

He is an idiot who needs to shut up or stop playing so much.

One more thing, playing on clay for 3 hours vs playing on hard for 1.5 is a "wash". Both are just as taxing on the body.

Now, this is The Truth! :)

reversef
03-29-2010, 10:21 AM
Of course, but hard courts are also not meant to be used as clay courts (ie sliding).

Players who play their best adapt to the court that are playing on, meaning not risking further injury that could be sustained when sliding on hard courts for example.

You are right.

I agree, but who does completely adapt? So many players who learned to play on HC can't slide on clay and lose many matches because of that. Very few players adapt at 100%. And amongst them, I would be curious to see how many of them learned to play in a country where you play on different surfaces. I live in Northern-Europe. We learn to play on clay (most of the time) in the summer, but the winters are long and indoors, there are more HC than CC. Americans are generally bad on clay ... because they never play on it. Spaniards are generally bad on HC ... because they never play on it when they are young. Pretty normal.

fedfan08
03-29-2010, 07:16 PM
Roddick did say once that Nadal gets 3 months on his favorite surface whereas he [Roddick] only gets 3 weeks.

Nadal seems to be the only player *****ing about too many hard courts. But if they sped up hard courts or brough back carpet that certainly wouldn't benefit him so what would he say then? No hard court tournament will be switched to grass or clay as those require more maintenance. I wish the surfaces were faster but I think the powers that be like medium paced courts because they feel it gives both the attackers and the grinders an equal shot at winning.

(K)evin
03-29-2010, 07:48 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-1261205/Injury-riddled-Rafael-Nadals-plea-play-fewer-tournaments-hard-courts.html

should we just eliminate the hard court surface in general rafa?

well maybe they should? I mean if I was the head of the ATP and had star players complaining then I would look into make not just hardcourts but all courts in general much more comfortable on a player's body. With technology the way it is I'm sure the ATP could figure it out

TheTruth
03-29-2010, 07:51 PM
Show me in my post where I talk about American players?

I didn't attribute that quote to you. I'm saying there's no reason for the Americans to complain. Using my own reasoning, not yours.

TheTruth
03-29-2010, 08:02 PM
well maybe they should? I mean if I was the head of the ATP and had star players complaining then I would look into make not just hardcourts but all courts in general much more comfortable on a player's body. With technology the way it is I'm sure the ATP could figure it out

People lose perspective so easily on these boards. The ATP has several problems.

1. The season is too long and the top stars are suffering as a result of its duration. In grand slams they play five sets! That's not good for anyone.

2. The hard courts are not conducive to helping out their commodities (tennis players).

3. Of course, they figure it out, but let's just have cheaper courts, kill our players, and let the chips fall where they may.

4. So what happens if the current state of tennis continues with severely decimated fields on the men's side? the amount of injuries clearly prove who is right.

Nadal should be applauded for speaking the truth. He is not the only one who would benefit, they all would.

(In a hypothetical situation)
This would be like Kobe complaining about playing on concrete as opposed to wood, and somebody saying, "he just wants to be better than Jordan." :confused::confused:

NamRanger
03-29-2010, 08:27 PM
People lose perspective so easily on these boards. The ATP has several problems.

1. The season is too long and the top stars are suffering as a result of its duration. In grand slams they play five sets! That's not good for anyone.

2. The hard courts are not conducive to helping out their commodities (tennis players).

3. Of course, they figure it out, but let's just have cheaper courts, kill our players, and let the chips fall where they may.

4. So what happens if the current state of tennis continues with severely decimated fields on the men's side? the amount of injuries clearly prove who is right.

Nadal should be applauded for speaking the truth. He is not the only one who would benefit, they all would.

(In a hypothetical situation)
This would be like Kobe complaining about playing on concrete as opposed to wood, and somebody saying, "he just wants to be better than Jordan." :confused::confused:



Hardcourts are by far the most neutral surface that produce some of the most exhilarating tennis. You can play both a defensive or an offensive style of tennis on hardcourts, and it caters to nearly everyone. Clay and grass have their place, but less hardcourt tournaments is essentially a no no. Too many benefits that outweigh the negatives.

Blinkism
03-29-2010, 08:40 PM
Some people are assuming less hardcourt tournaments must mean more clay tournaments to cater to Rafa, but it could mean more grasscourt tournaments added to the calendar?

jamesblakefan#1
03-29-2010, 08:41 PM
People lose perspective so easily on these boards. The ATP has several problems.

1. The season is too long and the top stars are suffering as a result of its duration. In grand slams they play five sets! That's not good for anyone.

So let's see, cut sets in slams to best of 3, changing over a century of tradition and alienating an entire fanbase. That will work out well. :rolleyes:

2. The hard courts are not conducive to helping out their commodities (tennis players).

Are you saying get rid of HC completely? It sounds like you want more clay and less HC, now that wouldn't be self serving at all as a Nadal fan, now would it? You refuse to acknowledge Nadal's poor scheduling on CLAY COURTS has partially led to his downfall. Doing things like playing Stuttgart the week after he'd injured himself in the 07 Wimby final, playing a packed schedule of MC-Rome-Barcelona-Hamburg/Madrid-RG every year, the mileage adds up.

abraxas21
03-29-2010, 08:43 PM
1. In grand slams they play five sets! That's not good for anyone.

Are you suggesting to have GS played best of three sets? :shock:

2. The hard courts are not conducive to helping out their commodities (tennis players).

It's about preferences. Some players prefer hardcourts to clay courts or grass courts. Why should one player decide for all?

3. Of course, they figure it out, but let's just have cheaper courts, kill our players, and let the chips fall where they may.

You're exaggerating quite a bit. "Kill our players"? No-one is gonna die for playing on hardcourts. Most of the top players have made a living playing on hardcourts and ended up just fine.

4. So what happens if the current state of tennis continues with severely decimated fields on the men's side? the amount of injuries clearly prove who is right.

No, the amount of injuries proves that some players are more fragile than others or have different playing styles than others which make their bodies more injury-prone. Nadal for example, gets more injured because of his playing style than because of having to play on hardcourts.

Nadal should be applauded for speaking the truth. He is not the only one who would benefit, they all would.

Impressive to know you think Nadal speaks for everyone in the ATP or at least knows best what's convenient for all the ATP players! For starters, I very much doubt that players who happen to play their best tennis on hardcourts would benefit by having less hardcourts.

With all this being said, I would favour reducing the hard court season a bit if that would mean extending the grass season. One MS played on grass is long overdue, imo. But that would need to re-schedule some big tournaments and make some significant changes in the ATP calendar.

jamesblakefan#1
03-29-2010, 08:49 PM
I think the CC season is fine, if anything the GC season does need to be longer. But as of now clay is fine the way it is. There are plenty of tourneys throughout the season for guys who like to play on clay to play. People have to remember that 2 of 4 slams are played on HC, that's the reason a majority of tennis is played on HC. As for the MS ratio, I think it should be 3 CC, 1 GC, 2 outdoors HC, 1 indoors HC.

sh@de
03-29-2010, 08:50 PM
People lose perspective so easily on these boards. The ATP has several problems.

1. The season is too long and the top stars are suffering as a result of its duration. In grand slams they play five sets! That's not good for anyone.

2. The hard courts are not conducive to helping out their commodities (tennis players).

3. Of course, they figure it out, but let's just have cheaper courts, kill our players, and let the chips fall where they may.

4. So what happens if the current state of tennis continues with severely decimated fields on the men's side? the amount of injuries clearly prove who is right.

Nadal should be applauded for speaking the truth. He is not the only one who would benefit, they all would.

(In a hypothetical situation)
This would be like Kobe complaining about playing on concrete as opposed to wood, and somebody saying, "he just wants to be better than Jordan." :confused::confused:

I stopped reading after I saw that. Some of your posts are alright, this isn't one of them.

Blinkism
03-29-2010, 09:10 PM
I think the CC season is fine, if anything the GC season does need to be longer. But as of now clay is fine the way it is. There are plenty of tourneys throughout the season for guys who like to play on clay to play. People have to remember that 2 of 4 slams are played on HC, that's the reason a majority of tennis is played on HC. As for the MS ratio, I think it should be 3 CC, 1 GC, 2 outdoors HC, 1 indoors HC.

I agree with this idea. Less HC tourney's doesn't mean more CC tourney's. There is a third option, right?

I know it's tradition to have Wimbledon on the date it is, BUT if it could be pushed back a week or two to add more of a tune-up grass season, I think it could work to everyone's benefit.

Ofcourse, Rafa's talking about reducing Mandatory HC tourney's. So, maybe, a solution could be to create a GC Master's, in the place of one of the existing HC Master's tourney's?

Probably not feasible to pick one out of all the tourneys that exist ATM, but I don't think there'd be too much opposition from the players or the fans if one of the HC Master's was replaced with a GC Master's before Wimby, somewhere in Europe (preferably, near the UK).

Just an idea.

namelessone
03-29-2010, 09:21 PM
I think the CC season is fine, if anything the GC season does need to be longer. But as of now clay is fine the way it is. There are plenty of tourneys throughout the season for guys who like to play on clay to play. People have to remember that 2 of 4 slams are played on HC, that's the reason a majority of tennis is played on HC. As for the MS ratio, I think it should be 3 CC, 1 GC, 2 outdoors HC, 1 indoors HC.

Agreed. Clay season doesn't need to be longer,Nadal did not say that,most Nadal fans don't want that(clay is well represented IMO,3 MS + 1 GS),what most TENNIS fans want is grass,fast,slow,medium,whatever but bring back some natural surfaces to the game. What tennis need is to keep its traditional GS format(2HC,1 GC,1 CC) and cut down maybe a third of major HC non-slam tourneys and make them grass/clay/a surface with some "give" to it as another poster sugested. It is absolutely laughable that everybody goes gaga over WB yet we do not have a grass masters.

How would it look if we had RG with no clay masters?

Yes,grass is expensive but really,is tennis a poor man's sport? Is it that hard to have maybe 2 grass masters? Madrid changed from hard to clay(both are cheap but there is some maintenance to clay unlike HC) so it can't be that hard to go from HC to grass. Yes,it is also trickier to keep the grass in the right state but since people here are going on and on and on about tradition,about one-handers,wood rackets and so on,how about we look towards one of the original surfaces of tennis for a change? There was a time when 3 out of 4 slams were played on grass. I have nothing against HC in principle but there is too much HC on tour. 6 out of 9 masters are on HC(not really evened out,now is it?,2 out of 4 slams are on HC(which is fine with me),the tennis masters cup is on HC(I agree with this cause HC is a neutral surface if you get the speed right,not cincy fast but not IW slow).

Basically tennis today is a HC fest with 3 months of natural surfaces packed in(april-may-june-6th of july) the middle of the season(I am talking about the big tourneys,from 500 onwards). And when most players today play LONG RALLIES then you can see why so many end up injured.

If the ATP would just do their job and even out the surfaces a bit we would have a better competition and healthier players.

jamesblakefan#1
03-29-2010, 09:30 PM
I honestly think the fact that so many outdoors HC tourneys are played after the USO is absurd. Especially considering they took away an indoor HC MS event in Madrid and made it an outdoor HC MS in Shanghai, even further monopolizing things. If anything the following should happen.

1.) Cut the outdoor HC events which occur after the USO completely.

2.) Create a true 4 week long indoor season w/ Paris as the only indoor MS prior to the TMC.

3.) Hold the TMC mid-October instead of early November.

This would create more of an off season, allowing guys more time to rest, and get rid of a lot of the pointless HC events that happen post USO, particularly from Sept-early Oct when no one is paying attention.

Blinkism
03-29-2010, 09:49 PM
I honestly think the fact that so many outdoors HC tourneys are played after the USO is absurd. Especially considering they took away an indoor HC MS event in Madrid and made it an outdoor HC MS in Shanghai, even further monopolizing things. If anything the following should happen.

1.) Cut the outdoor HC events which occur after the USO completely.

2.) Create a true 4 week long indoor season w/ Paris as the only indoor MS prior to the TMC.

3.) Hold the TMC mid-October instead of early November.

This would create more of an off season, allowing guys more time to rest, and get rid of a lot of the pointless HC events that happen post USO, particularly from Sept-early Oct when no one is paying attention.

Great idea. Except, maybe, instead of Paris you just have Shanghai as the sole indoor MS tourney (keeping the Asian swing intact), by closing the roof in Shanghai (as they did when it used to be the host to the Master's Cup).

And then you move the MS tourney currently in Paris to right after the FO and before Wimby as the only grasscourt Master's tourney. All while extending the grasscourt season by a week or two (and condensing some of the pre-USO season. for example: you cut out the week after Wimby traditionally open for the Newport grass tourney and shift the Davis Cup)

Whether you keep that MS tourney in Paris (convenient for the pro's who just played in Paris for the FO) or move it to somewhere nearby, you have the best of many worlds

the combined effect is

1 less mandatory HC Masters - just what Rafa was looking for, I gather.
a longer grass-court season - improves the quality of grass-court tennis overall, making Wimbledon more competitive and creating a larger niche for the endangered species of grass-court specialists. And, ofcourse, it's a better surface for the body (also in line with what Rafa is saying)
a shorter season, overall - everyone is happy with this, and this doesn't exclude the possibilities of Davis Cup and exhibitions running well into the off-season (for the hardcore fans who can't live with any breaks in tennis :)).


Obviously, it doesn't have to be exactly how I outlined it, but something that can achieve the goals of increasing the amount of tournaments on natural surfaces, reducing the amount on hardcourts, and shortening the season - would be good.

TheTruth
03-29-2010, 10:28 PM
Hardcourts are by far the most neutral surface that produce some of the most exhilarating tennis. You can play both a defensive or an offensive style of tennis on hardcourts, and it caters to nearly everyone. Clay and grass have their place, but less hardcourt tournaments is essentially a no no. Too many benefits that outweigh the negatives.

Hardcourts are the least expensive and easier to maintain, but the bottom line is, how much is it hurting the sport? When the grand slams were played on grass, players played a lot more matches, because their bodies weren't getting pounded so much. I'm looking at it from a health perspective and more longevity for players. In this tournament alone, let's count all the bandages we see on the players. We won't be privy to the hidden ones in areas we can't see, but right off the top of my head I recall seeing: Henin,
Fish, others can add on, because today was my day to fast forward through the results. I know some injuries are to be expected, but c'mon.

The injury list looks like wartime, in 2010:

Del Potro-out
Serena-out
Roddick-just back
Davydenko-wrist
Nadal-knees

abmk
03-29-2010, 10:37 PM
The injury list looks like wartime, in 2010:

Del Potro-out
Serena-out
Roddick-just back
Davydenko-wrist
Nadal-knees

del potro wrist injury , correct ? that has nothing to do with hard courts. ditto for davydenko

when was roddick injured recently ? :shock:

nadal hurt himself going after a drop shot in the murray match. he was fine till then. His injury didn't have that much to do with too much play on HC

TheTruth
03-29-2010, 10:44 PM
Are you suggesting to have GS played best of three sets? :shock:

No. I'm saying the men take even more punishment with the grand slam layout. Not sure how you came to that suggestion.

It's about preferences. Some players prefer hardcourts to clay courts or grass courts. Why should one player decide for all?

This is an age old debate that's been going on forever. It has nothing to do with Nadal.

You're exaggerating quite a bit. "Kill our players"? No-one is gonna die for playing on hardcourts. Most of the top players have made a living playing on hardcourts and ended up just fine.

If I used that term, that is an exaggeration, let's just say injury-riddled and ending their careers prematurely-Safin, Canas, may as well say Hewitt too. Haas is just hanging in there.

No, the amount of injuries proves that some players are more fragile than others or have different playing styles than others which make their bodies more injury-prone. Nadal for example, gets more injured because of his playing style than because of having to play on hardcourts.

It sounds like you're saying since Federer doesn't get injured, let the rest of the tour be danged. Nadal isn't the only one with tape all over the place. Most of the tour are. What is this playing style garbage people have been spouting? All of the players play hard. I don't buy that argument.

Impressive to know you think Nadal speaks for everyone in the ATP or at least knows best what's convenient for all the ATP players! For starters, I very much doubt that players who happen to play their best tennis on hardcourts would benefit by having less hardcourts.

The ratio is distorted when its long been suggested hard courts are bad for the body.

With all this being said, I would favour reducing the hard court season a bit if that would mean extending the grass season. One MS played on grass is long overdue, imo. But that would need to re-schedule some big tournaments and make some significant changes in the ATP calendar.

Cool. We'll let you speak for the tour:)


Thanks for your thoughts, although we didn't agree on anything!

TheTruth
03-29-2010, 10:46 PM
:mad:I stopped reading after I saw that. Some of your posts are alright, this isn't one of them.

Sorry....

Justdoit10
03-29-2010, 11:02 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, although we didn't agree on anything!
I think when you said "it doesnt help anyone", it kinda seemed like you were against five set matchess. We just misunderstood you.

TheTruth
03-29-2010, 11:04 PM
I think when you said "it doesnt help anyone", it kinda seemed like you were against five set matchess. We just misunderstood you.

I just saw that. No, I'm not advocating getting rid of 5-set matches. Those are the most intense and drama filled.

joeri888
03-29-2010, 11:19 PM
I don't dislike Nadal, and maybe it's just the media repeating the same story with the same quotes. But otherwise, Rafa should seriously quit whining and just don't PLAY the HC tournaments. Rafa wants more clay, which is something entirely different and there's no reason to do that. If anything, some hardcourts should make room for Carpet, and maybe a few more grasscourt tourneys.

sh@de
03-30-2010, 12:09 AM
:mad:

Sorry....

No seriously speaking... you don't like GS being best of 5??? And here I am, seeing people saying they want best of 5 MS finals too!

kimbahpnam
03-30-2010, 12:13 AM
I say bring back carpet!

Jasmin_Warren
03-30-2010, 12:18 AM
yes because Nadal has only won on claycourts, he's never adapted and won on any other surface. :)

Then I think its about time for him to make adjustments. Players ought to be pretty flexible I suppose. It's Rafa who need to change his tactics and strategies and not the court.

dmt
03-30-2010, 12:44 AM
Then I think its about time for him to make adjustments. Players ought to be pretty flexible I suppose. It's Rafa who need to change his tactics and strategies and not the court.

you obviously cant understand sarcasm. He has adapted, winning queens, wimbledon, australian open, olympic gold on a fast hardcourt, semi finals of the US open twice, ofcourse he has adapted.

as far as people attacking Nadal, dailymail is not a reliable site and it does not make it clear when he made these comments, whether they are recent or not.

namelessone
03-30-2010, 01:10 AM
you obviously cant understand sarcasm. He has adapted, winning queens, wimbledon, australian open, olympic gold on a fast hardcourt, semi finals of the US open twice, ofcourse he has adapted.

as far as people attacking Nadal, dailymail is not a reliable site and it does not make it clear when he made these comments, whether they are recent or not.

Don't you know that any surface Rafa wins on turns to clay? It's like the guy has clay stuck to the soles of his shoes or something:)

In all honesty,Rafa isn't great on very fast surfaces but here is something people forget,he does have some fast HC credentials:

* beat Federer in Dubai in 06,which is pretty fast IMO.
* made Cincy SF twice,a pretty fast tourney from what I reckon,though he was clearly dominated by djoker in both.
* made 2 SF at USO,the fast slam,something which in this era has been reserved to guys with great HC games,like fed,djoker,roddick(murray will probably make the list further on),though he was dominated in both semifinals.
* beat djoker and gonzalez on a really fast court in olympics,both with better HC games,at least on paper.
* made a final at paris-bercy,which is pretty fast as well(though he got beat badly by nalby)
* made two TMC SF appearances,losing to fed both times.
* won madrid,a indoor tourney,by beating ljubicic in 05'.

Rafa is a legend on clay,very good on grass and while it is true that he has the best chances on slow-medium HC,he is no slouch on fast HC either. If he has a favourable draw and is in good form he can win fast HC titles.

dmt
03-30-2010, 01:20 AM
good post, i agree with what you are saying.

TheTruth
03-30-2010, 03:37 AM
No seriously speaking... you don't like GS being best of 5??? And here I am, seeing people saying they want best of 5 MS finals too!

I was talking about the impact of the surfaces on the guys. They play too much on this surface. My best of five comment was written incorrectly. But no, I love best of fives and wish the MS finals were best of five too. It made it more special and rewarded those who were fit.

mandy01
03-30-2010, 03:42 AM
I was talking about the impact of the surfaces on the guys. They play too much on this surface. My best of five comment was written incorrectly. But no, I love best of fives and wish the MS finals were best of five too. It made it more special and rewarded those who were fit.
So what changes do you propose?

reversef
03-30-2010, 04:42 AM
Others have complained, but they don't single out one specific surface. A lot of players have said the season is too long, but most realize how to schedule and are more peeved about the amt of tourneys that are required after the USO is already over. But Nadal comes out every year and has the same complaints only about HC, when he goes and plays 5 CC events in a row there's no problem, but 2 HC events in a row and he's whining again.

You are completely wrong. Nadal not only complains that there are too many HC tournaments (which is true), he also complains about the density of the clay season. The 3 Masters Series played on clay are very close to each other. Do you think that he plays a lot on clay? He doesn't play the south american tournaments on clay. And he doesn't play on clay after Wimbledon. The only clay tournament that Nadal plays besides the Masters Series is Barcelona, which is his home tournament.
Everybody knows that the part of the season played on clay is too dense. It's the only part of the season that is so compact. If only it was one of the HC seasons, it would be more fair since the players who love the surface would have another opportunity. But doing such a compact clay season is really unfair for the players who love clay. And for Europe by the way. Are you american? Because here, in Europe, what many people think is that it's not fair to see the european season (which also includes the grass season) treated like that (without any respect) because the american TV decides of the schedule.
The schedule is definitely unfair for the european tour and for clay courters (at least, the ones who are at the top and play the big tournaments). Not surprising that Nadal is the most "vocal" player on the subject: how many players do have clay as their favourite surface in the current top 10? Only one. There are very good reasons for that fact: the schedule is unfair for them. The ATP killed typical grass players first. I've never been a big fan of those players, but it's still a pity for the diversity of the game. With the current insane schedule, I fear that the clay-court players are a species in danger of extinction too.

reversef
03-30-2010, 04:57 AM
Thank you for pointing that out.

If players like Clijsters would stop "split sliding" on hardcourts, the injuries wouldn't be as prevelant.

If players who learned to play on clay started to play differently on HC, then players who learned to play on HC should be able to play differently on clay too. They would get better results.

reversef
03-30-2010, 05:02 AM
Roddick did say once that Nadal gets 3 months on his favorite surface whereas he [Roddick] only gets 3 weeks.

Nadal seems to be the only player *****ing about too many hard courts. But if they sped up hard courts or brough back carpet that certainly wouldn't benefit him so what would he say then? No hard court tournament will be switched to grass or clay as those require more maintenance. I wish the surfaces were faster but I think the powers that be like medium paced courts because they feel it gives both the attackers and the grinders an equal shot at winning.

Actually, grass can be quite slow (it's slower in Wimbledon now, and I think the AO grass was even slower back in the days) and clay can be quite fast (mostly green clay). Saying that grass is automatically too fast to allow some players to compete and that clay is too slow is wrong.

reversef
03-30-2010, 05:09 AM
It's about preferences. Some players prefer hardcourts to clay courts or grass courts. Why should one player decide for all?


Impressive to know you think Nadal speaks for everyone in the ATP or at least knows best what's convenient for all the ATP players! For starters, I very much doubt that players who happen to play their best tennis on hardcourts would benefit by having less hardcourts.

With all this being said, I would favour reducing the hard court season a bit if that would mean extending the grass season. One MS played on grass is long overdue, imo. But that would need to re-schedule some big tournaments and make some significant changes in the ATP calendar.

Nadal doesn't speak for everyone, it's true. But let's say that he "is the voice" of the clay court players who would like some changes. How many are they in the top 50? Quite a few, I think. How many in the top 10? Just one. If a player like Nadal doesn't speak for them, who will?

I agree that there should be a MS on grass though.

drakulie
03-30-2010, 05:17 AM
Hardcourts are the least expensive and easier to maintain, but the bottom line is, how much is it hurting the sport?
The injury list looks like wartime, in 2010:

Del Potro-out
Serena-out
Roddick-just back
Davydenko-wrist
Nadal-knees


Didn't realize Davy walks around on his wrists.

reversef
03-30-2010, 05:26 AM
I don't dislike Nadal, and maybe it's just the media repeating the same story with the same quotes. But otherwise, Rafa should seriously quit whining and just don't PLAY the HC tournaments. Rafa wants more clay, which is something entirely different and there's no reason to do that. If anything, some hardcourts should make room for Carpet, and maybe a few more grasscourt tourneys.

I'm sure that he would like to have more clay, but it's not exactly what he says. He wants more natural surfaces, which is different. It includes grass as well.
Concerning the clay season, he complains that it's too dense. And he's right. That part of the seaon is the most compact one. For a player like him, playing 5 tournaments on clay (including RG) is normal. You can't say that he plays too much on clay, but it's too dense.

Murray Mound
03-30-2010, 06:30 AM
delete post

Didn't realize Davy walks around on his wrists.

Omg that was funny!!! Good one!

joeri888
03-30-2010, 06:34 AM
I'm sure that he would like to have more clay, but it's not exactly what he says. He wants more natural surfaces, which is different. It includes grass as well.
Concerning the clay season, he complains that it's too dense. And he's right. That part of the seaon is the most compact one. For a player like him, playing 5 tournaments on clay (including RG) is normal. You can't say that he plays too much on clay, but it's too dense.

He could just take the fine and stop playing IW and Miami, play Acapulco and Buenos Aires, than play the clay season, and go to clay after Wimbledon. Skip Montreal. It's not a problem. I agree they should shut the mandatory stuff, but otherwise the schedule's fine.

reversef
03-30-2010, 06:41 AM
He could just take the fine and stop playing IW and Miami, play Acapulco and Buenos Aires, than play the clay season, and go to clay after Wimbledon. Skip Montreal. It's not a problem. I agree they should shut the mandatory stuff, but otherwise the schedule's fine.

No, he wouldn't be fine. Even if he wins an ATP 250, his ranking will suffer from it. And the ATP wouldn't allow a player to play that schedule. Certainly not a player who is so important to attract the crowd. Can you imagine that?
And it wouldn't change the fact that the "big clay season " is too dense. Between Monte Carlo and Roland-Garros, it's terrible. And that's where you can really win points and important tournaments on clay.
The schedule is not fine at all. Between the end of the AO and IW, there are a few weeks. Plus why do IW and Miami extend on 2 weeks and have a bigger draw? There are Masters Series like all the other ones. In my opinion, Monte Carlo (which means the starting point of the only real clay season) should start 3 weeks earlier. There would be more air to breathe during the clay seaon. Roland-Garros could also be played one week earlier, It would give the players 2 more weeks to breathe during the clay season and one more week to prepare Wimbledon and get a Masters Series on grass (in the replacement of a HC Masters Series).

jamesblakefan#1
03-30-2010, 06:43 AM
You are completely wrong. Nadal not only complains that there are too many HC tournaments (which is true), he also complains about the density of the clay season. The 3 Masters Series played on clay are very close to each other. Do you think that he plays a lot on clay? He doesn't play the south american tournaments on clay. And he doesn't play on clay after Wimbledon. The only clay tournament that Nadal plays besides the Masters Series is Barcelona, which is his home tournament.
Everybody knows that the part of the season played on clay is too dense. It's the only part of the season that is so compact. If only it was one of the HC seasons, it would be more fair since the players who love the surface would have another opportunity. But doing such a compact clay season is really unfair for the players who love clay. And for Europe by the way. Are you american? Because here, in Europe, what many people think is that it's not unfair to see the european season (which also includes the grass season) treated like that (without any respect) because the american TV decides of the schedule.
The schedule is unfair definitely unfair for the european tour and for clay courters (at least, the ones who are at the top and play the big tournaments). Not surprising that Nadal is the most "vocal" player on the subject: how many players do have clay as their favourite surface in the current top 10? Only one. There are very good reasons for that fact: the schedule is unfair for them. The ATP killed typical grass players first. I've never been a big fan of those players, but it's still a pity for the diversity of the game. With the current insane schedule, I fear that the clay-court players are a species in danger of extinction too.

I don't think you get it though. Nadal shouldn't play every CC tournament. There's no reason for him to go and play all of MC-Barcelona-Rome-Madrid in the runup to the FO. For one he doesn't need the practice since he's already clearly the best on clay, and also if he needs so much rest he should take it. No one is forcing him to play every event, he should have pulled from Madrid last year instead of playing on which cost him the chance to defend his Wimby title ultimately. Also MC isn't mandatory anymore so he doesn't have to play that either.

If Nadal doesn't want to play, then it's simple, don't play. He didn't have a problem doing that last yr at the biggest tournament of the year, he shouldn't be worried about missing the Monte Carlos and Romes of the world; my point is if he's hurt just don't play, don't whine about it and then complain after the fact when you are injured. My whole thing is Nadal basically refuses to acknowledge that his poor scheduling has as much to do w/ his knee problems as anything else. Nadal's scheduling sucks. That along w/ what I hear about his intense practicing leads me to believe he has as much responsibility in this. Using the ATP schedule as the scapegoat for his knee issues is just dumb.

reversef
03-30-2010, 06:59 AM
I don't think you get it though. Nadal shouldn't play every CC tournament. There's no reason for him to go and play all of MC-Barcelona-Rome-Madrid in the runup to the FO. For one he doesn't need the practice since he's already clearly the best on clay, and also if he needs so much rest he should take it. No one is forcing him to play every event, he should have pulled from Madrid last year instead of playing on which cost him the chance to defend his Wimby title ultimately. Also MC isn't mandatory anymore so he doesn't have to play that either.

If Nadal doesn't want to play, then it's simple, don't play. He didn't have a problem doing that last yr at the biggest tournament of the year, he shouldn't be worried about missing the Monte Carlos and Romes of the world; my point is if he's hurt just don't play, don't whine about it and then complain after the fact when you are injured. My whole thing is Nadal basically refuses to acknowledge that his poor scheduling has as much to do w/ his knee problems as anything else. Nadal's scheduling sucks. That along w/ what I hear about his intense practicing leads me to believe he has as much responsibility in this. Using the ATP schedule as the scapegoat for his knee issues is just dumb.

I'm sorry, but what you don't get is that players NEED great results if they want to keep a top ranking. Nadal just like the other ones. He can have good results on every surface, it's true. But where does he normally have the better results? Clearly on clay. Where does he have the more chances to win Masters Series? On clay. There are 3 MS played on clay and it's logical that he wants to play them ALL. If a player only gets 3 MS out of 9 played on his favourite surface, it's not much. Skipping one of them is not what the player wants to do. And Barcelona is still another thing: it's Nadal's home tournament. Just like Federer wants to play Basel and Djokovic wants to play Belgrade, Nadal wants to play Barcelona. It's not difficult to understand.

swordtennis
03-30-2010, 07:11 AM
Nadal is not tennis. I say give him what he wants and start adding/converting lightning fast grass court tournies. Also convert to fast hardcourts. Make wimby fast again as well. Less rallies. Quick points. Less injuries. Just what he and his camp want. I am starting to figure out Nadal and his "camp" and his "fans". Lots of lies, liars and mind games.
Thier sneaky condescending attitude towards the game and others is off putting. Play the game and shut up. Losing perspective?
Here is perspective:
Less rallies. Quick points. Less injuries. Just what he and his camp want.
Shall it be repeated again?

swordtennis
03-30-2010, 07:18 AM
I say bring back carpet!
Yes! Carpet and convert all the hardcourts to high-mid to fast again. Also change the grass back to fast. Less long rallies. Shorter points. Less chance of injuries. Duh!
And the rackets being too much for the faster courts? Make the tour 85-90 square inch only. Get rid of these big bubbas that Nadal and others use. That Nadal racket is a pure power racket. 4 the love of Pete Sampras what the heck is he complaining about!?

FiveO
03-30-2010, 07:26 AM
IMO, and it's not a new opinion, is that the year has become too biased toward h/c's. That being said, in the past there was a year round haven for claycourters to retreat to in order to amass points, avoiding grass and hardcourts at their leisure, also a bad thing.

I don't think the length of the season is truly the problem, though it could/should be shortened probably by a month. I think the true problem is the elimination of quick court tennis over time. First historic elimination of grass, the slowing of the grass that's left, and total elimination of true carpet season.

IMO the argument that Nadal "speaks for clay courters" and if not him then who(?) falls on deaf ears with me.

If that were true, then where was the support for Ljubicic when he lamented the total elimination of quick conditions, as he asked, to the best of my memory, where in the calendar is the season where quick court players get to shine?

A re-introduction of a quick court season would alleviate the grind of both hard and clay courts and attrition based play we see year round now. Win or lose.

5

CMM
03-30-2010, 07:28 AM
You are completely wrong. Nadal not only complains that there are too many HC tournaments (which is true), he also complains about the density of the clay season. The 3 Masters Series played on clay are very close to each other. Do you think that he plays a lot on clay? He doesn't play the south american tournaments on clay. And he doesn't play on clay after Wimbledon. The only clay tournament that Nadal plays besides the Masters Series is Barcelona, which is his home tournament.
Everybody knows that the part of the season played on clay is too dense. It's the only part of the season that is so compact. If only it was one of the HC seasons, it would be more fair since the players who love the surface would have another opportunity. But doing such a compact clay season is really unfair for the players who love clay. And for Europe by the way. Are you american? Because here, in Europe, what many people think is that it's not unfair to see the european season (which also includes the grass season) treated like that (without any respect) because the american TV decides of the schedule.
The schedule is definitely unfair for the european tour and for clay courters (at least, the ones who are at the top and play the big tournaments). Not surprising that Nadal is the most "vocal" player on the subject: how many players do have clay as their favourite surface in the current top 10? Only one. There are very good reasons for that fact: the schedule is unfair for them. The ATP killed typical grass players first. I've never been a big fan of those players, but it's still a pity for the diversity of the game. With the current insane schedule, I fear that the clay-court players are a species in danger of extinction too.

You are right......................

swordtennis
03-30-2010, 07:30 AM
IMO, and it's not a new opinion, is that the year has become too biased toward h/c's. That being said, in the past there was a year round haven for claycourters to retreat to in order to amass points, avoiding grass and hardcourts at their leisure, also a bad thing.

I don't think the length of the season is truly the problem, though it could/should be shortened probably by a month. I think the true problem is the elimination of quick court tennis over time. First historic elimination of grass, the slowing of the grass that's left, and total elimination of true carpet season.

IMO the argument that Nadal "speaks for clay courters" and if not him then who(?) falls on deaf ears with me.

If that were true, then where was the support for Ljubicic when he lamented the total elimination of quick conditions, as he asked, to the best of my memory, where in the calendar is the season where quick court players get to shine?

A re-introduction of a quick court season would alleviate the grind of both hard and clay courts and attrition based play we see year round now. Win or lose.

5

Good logic. Yes they saturated the market with these pure drive power big bubbas and then slowed the courts down so players have to "grind"
on hardcourts and grass now. Its become a joke. Have a limit on racket size and speed up the courts again. Easy logical doable solution. Not like these excuse ridden fantasy island solutions.
Oh yes the solutions that involve anti American jingoism and other biased BS are pure bunk.

Big-Serve
03-30-2010, 07:50 AM
What is Rafa thinking? Now I hate more this f..... clay season! Only because his ''10 meters behind the baseline tennis'' works on clay.

coyfish
03-30-2010, 08:13 AM
I'm sorry, but what you don't get is that players NEED great results if they want to keep a top ranking. Nadal just like the other ones. He can have good results on every surface, it's true. But where does he normally have the better results? Clearly on clay. Where does he have the more chances to win Masters Series? On clay. There are 3 MS played on clay and it's logical that he wants to play them ALL. If a player only gets 3 MS out of 9 played on his favourite surface, it's not much. Skipping one of them is not what the player wants to do. And Barcelona is still another thing: it's Nadal's home tournament. Just like Federer wants to play Basel and Djokovic wants to play Belgrade, Nadal wants to play Barcelona. It's not difficult to understand.

Hmmm lets see. Whats more important . . . saving your knees or playing 1 extra tournament that would remove you from the game for months ??

jamesblakefan#1
03-30-2010, 08:22 AM
I'm sorry, but what you don't get is that players NEED great results if they want to keep a top ranking. Nadal just like the other ones. He can have good results on every surface, it's true. But where does he normally have the better results? Clearly on clay. Where does he have the more chances to win Masters Series? On clay. There are 3 MS played on clay and it's logical that he wants to play them ALL. If a player only gets 3 MS out of 9 played on his favourite surface, it's not much. Skipping one of them is not what the player wants to do. And Barcelona is still another thing: it's Nadal's home tournament. Just like Federer wants to play Basel and Djokovic wants to play Belgrade, Nadal wants to play Barcelona. It's not difficult to understand.

Nadal already said in the past he doesn't care about ranking that much. He made that more obvious when he skipped Wimbledon which basically gave Fed the top spot. If Nadal doesn't like HC he doesn't have to play them. He can pull out of all the HC tourneys w/ injury for all I care like he did last year at Wimbledon.

If Nadal can't manage his schedule better that's his fault. He has to realize that at a certain point you can't please everyone. Even if that means pulling from your home tournament (like he should've last year w/ either Madrid or Barcelona). HC are too much, but there should be more grass. Clay is fine the way it is currently, Nadal just needs to schedule better and not kill himself playing every CC tourney in the runup to the French.

Bittabonga
03-30-2010, 08:26 AM
Screw Nadal nobody else wants clay tourneys either. Now dont you worry,
you will eliminated soon and then you can go back to Mallorca to stay with mom and dad.

TennezSport
03-30-2010, 09:32 AM
Hard Courts are not hurting anyone! It's the players themselves that are responsible for their scheduling and their health. If you travel around the planet you will find loads of clay courts, hard courts and even more grass tourny's than we normally see televised. By reducing the number of any of these courts/tourny's actually hurts the up and coming players who have to work hard for their money while trying to gain points. Reducing tournys also hurts people who do not get much of a chance to watch the sport in person. However, I do believe that where should be 2 months off at the end of the season.

For any of the rich spoiled players to whine about any surface is insane, as they have the best trainers and the best opportunity to plan a great season schedule. There are no excuses at all, properly plan your practice, and tourny's and you will be a lot healthier and have a long career; very simple actually.

Cheers, TennezSport :cool:

soyizgood
03-30-2010, 09:35 AM
Screw Nadal nobody else wants clay tourneys either. Now dont you worry,
you will eliminated soon and then you can go back to Mallorca to stay with mom and dad.

Uhmm, didn't his parents split?

As for Nadal, he plays two optional clay events in Barcelona and Monte Carlo. Until 2008 he also would play Stuttgart. As for hardcourts he plays optional ones like Rotterdam and Dubai. I think top players more or less have to play 3 500 events, but counting Monte Carlo he plays at least 4 of them a year. Since Monte Carlo still awards 1000 points, he can probably skip Rotterdam without any point penalty. If he wasn't such a ***** to the sheiks, he could skip Dubai to play Acapulco.

AM95
03-30-2010, 09:35 AM
Nadal already said in the past he doesn't care about ranking that much. He made that more obvious when he skipped Wimbledon which basically gave Fed the top spot. If Nadal doesn't like HC he doesn't have to play them. He can pull out of all the HC tourneys w/ injury for all I care like he did last year at Wimbledon.

If Nadal can't manage his schedule better that's his fault. He has to realize that at a certain point you can't please everyone. Even if that means pulling from your home tournament (like he should've last year w/ either Madrid or Barcelona). HC are too much, but there should be more grass. Clay is fine the way it is currently, Nadal just needs to schedule better and not kill himself playing every CC tourney in the runup to the French.

....

im pretty sure he couldn't play because his knees were absolutly killing him?:confused:


in regards to playing every CC tournament:

nadal HAS TO

thats where he gains almost all of his points. but the problem with gaining all these points is that you have to defend them the next year so that your ranking doesnt fall.

he needs to take schedule managing sessions from rodga

drakulie
03-30-2010, 09:42 AM
....

im pretty sure he couldn't play because his knees were absolutly killing him?:confused:




Then why play two exos immediately before wimbledon began???, and why practice 4 days after wimbledon began?? and why "come back" after his "injury" (cough) to play on hard courts, and play singles **AND** doubles while "still injured"???


hmmmmm :confused:

Bottom line is, Nadal is a whiner and it's embarassing already. He needs to manage **HIS** schedule better, take responsibility, rather than have the entire ATP adapt their schedule to his belly-aching.

CMM
03-30-2010, 10:02 AM
and why practice 4 days after wimbledon began

That's not true.

Li Ching Yuen
03-30-2010, 10:02 AM
IMO, and it's not a new opinion, is that the year has become too biased toward h/c's. That being said, in the past there was a year round haven for claycourters to retreat to in order to amass points, avoiding grass and hardcourts at their leisure, also a bad thing.

I don't think the length of the season is truly the problem, though it could/should be shortened probably by a month. I think the true problem is the elimination of quick court tennis over time. First historic elimination of grass, the slowing of the grass that's left, and total elimination of true carpet season.

IMO the argument that Nadal "speaks for clay courters" and if not him then who(?) falls on deaf ears with me.

If that were true, then where was the support for Ljubicic when he lamented the total elimination of quick conditions, as he asked, to the best of my memory, where in the calendar is the season where quick court players get to shine?

A re-introduction of a quick court season would alleviate the grind of both hard and clay courts and attrition based play we see year round now. Win or lose.

5

So true.

The calendar is a joke now, with only hard court and clay events. If it weren't for history and tradition they'd probably want to make Wimbledon on hard courts too.

Sad times, we live in.

drakulie
03-30-2010, 10:12 AM
That's not true.


yeah, it is.

soyizgood
03-30-2010, 10:12 AM
So true.

The calendar is a joke now, with only hard court and clay events. If it weren't for history and tradition they'd probably want to make Wimbledon on hard courts too.

Sad times, we live in.

Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and a host of top players whined their way to eliminating carpet. Clay courters and folks bored of Ivanisevic/Sampras-type ace fests whined their way to slowing down Wimbledon. Nadal is just one of many players I consider to be whiny. Even Federer whines a bit.

That said, if Nadal hates playing on hardcourts, he can modify his schedule to minimize playing on it. That and tweak his game for better results on hard courts. :rolleyes:

Li Ching Yuen
03-30-2010, 10:17 AM
Indoor carpet can be very entertaining.

If they can't play on it just get another job.

CMM
03-30-2010, 10:17 AM
yeah, it is.

Prove it..............

AM95
03-30-2010, 10:17 AM
Nadal, Federer, Djokovic and a host of top players whined their way to eliminating carpet. Clay courters and folks bored of Ivanisevic/Sampras-type ace fests whined their way to slowing down Wimbledon. Nadal is just one of many players I consider to be whiny. Even Federer whines a bit.

That said, if Nadal hates playing on hardcourts, he can modify his schedule to minimize playing on it. That and tweak his game for better results on hard courts. :rolleyes:

lol wut?

i doubt federer would want carpet eliminated.
__________________________________________________ _______________
what does federer whine about again????

AM95
03-30-2010, 10:18 AM
Prove it..............

prove to me that you exist :D

drakulie
03-30-2010, 10:21 AM
Prove it..............


I already have. On several dozen occasions, and many of them directed at you. My source is from the "vamosrafelnadal " (same news station all the rafa fans on this board use to provide updates on him).

dropshot winner
03-30-2010, 10:24 AM
lol wut?

i doubt federer would want carpet eliminated.


Carpet is an ancient surface that is unsuited to play baseline tennis on it, it's a killer for the ankles.

Federer tore his ankle tendons in 2005, so it's hardly surprising that he was against carpet.
It's not about the speed of the surface but about the dangers of getting stuck with the feet.

CMM
03-30-2010, 10:26 AM
I already have. On several dozen occasions, and many of them directed at you. My source is from the "vamosrafelnadal " (same news station all the rafa fans on this board use to provide updates on him).

You're right. That's the source.
But if you watch the video more carefully, you can see that the date of his first practice is July 20. Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfAjGyP_VOw
That's not 4 days after the start of Wimbledon.

drakulie
03-30-2010, 10:29 AM
^^^Uhmmm, they had a video posted **BEFORE THAT DATE**, WHICH I HAVE ALREADY PROVIDED TO YOU, AND YOU HAVE SEEN, WHERE IT IS CLEAR THEY REPORT HE WAS PRACTICING 4 DAYS AFTER WIMBLEDON BEGAN IN PREPARATION FOR A DAVIS CUP MATCH.

YOU KNOW ALL THIS. NO NEED TO TROLL. WE KNOW YOU LOVE HIM SO NO NEED TO LIE ON HIS BEHALF.

swordtennis
03-30-2010, 10:31 AM
Carpet is an ancient surface that is unsuited to play baseline tennis on it, it's a killer for the ankles.

Federer tore his ankle tendons in 2005, so it's hardly surprising that he was against carpet.
It's not about the speed of the surface but about the dangers of getting stuck with the feet.

Thats right and Fed has not been 100% since 2005. He is still trying to regain his confidence and form...
;-)

Might have to take that back on wanting carpet. It can be a real nasty surface on the ankles and knees.

Murray Mound
03-30-2010, 10:32 AM
Carpet is an ancient surface that is unsuited to play baseline tennis on it, it's a killer for the ankles.

Federer tore his ankle tendons in 2005, so it's hardly surprising that he was against carpet.
It's not about the speed of the surface but about the dangers of getting stuck with the feet.

Let's get even more ancient and try wood!!

CMM
03-30-2010, 10:32 AM
^^^Uhmmm, they had a video posted **BEFORE THAT DATE**, WHICH I HAVE ALREADY PROVIDED TO YOU, AND YOU HAVE SEEN, WHERE IT IS CLEAR THEY REPORT HE WAS PRACTIING 4 DAYS AFTER WIMBLEDON BEGAN.

YOU KNOW ALL THIS. NO NEED TO TROLL.

What video? I haven't seen any video. :neutral:
You can see the one that I have posted above. That's a real proof.

Li Ching Yuen
03-30-2010, 10:35 AM
Carpet is an ancient surface that is unsuited to play baseline tennis on it, it's a killer for the ankles.

Federer tore his ankle tendons in 2005, so it's hardly surprising that he was against carpet.
It's not about the speed of the surface but about the dangers of getting stuck with the feet.

So, carpet worked just fine for a decade and a half and all of a sudden it's dangerous for the players?

I call nonsense in all this.

AM95
03-30-2010, 10:35 AM
^^^Uhmmm, they had a video posted **BEFORE THAT DATE**, WHICH I HAVE ALREADY PROVIDED TO YOU, AND YOU HAVE SEEN, WHERE IT IS CLEAR THEY REPORT HE WAS PRACTICING 4 DAYS AFTER WIMBLEDON BEGAN IN PREPARATION FOR A DAVIS CUP MATCH.

YOU KNOW ALL THIS. NO NEED TO TROLL. WE KNOW YOU LOVE HIM SO NO NEED TO LIE ON HIS BEHALF.

theres no point of fighting with a single minded fool...

swordtennis
03-30-2010, 10:37 AM
Real proof and Nadal "fans" and Nadals "camp"? You got to be kidding!? That credibility is LONG gone. Blaming everyone else for ones own problems is a serious dysfunctional psychological issue.

drakulie
03-30-2010, 10:39 AM
What video? I haven't seen any video. :neutral:
You can see the one that I have posted above. That's a real proof.


THIS ONE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4jUGufaJek

Djokovicfan4life
03-30-2010, 10:42 AM
THIS ONE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4jUGufaJek

Love the slow motion, now I'm waiting for the "in depth" analysis.

drakulie
03-30-2010, 10:43 AM
theres no point of fighting with a single minded fool...

Yup, total fool is right. It's ok to be a fan of someone, but to purposely act like a ****** is plain embarassing.

I'm also aware as of a few weeks ago, that same news agency took down the video I referred to. It was in my signature for several months, and I suppose the controversy of them being a "rafa site", they couldn't deal with the fact that they assisted in proving he was lying about his injury.

jamesblakefan#1
03-30-2010, 10:54 AM
....

im pretty sure he couldn't play because his knees were absolutly killing him?:confused:


in regards to playing every CC tournament:

nadal HAS TO

thats where he gains almost all of his points. but the problem with gaining all these points is that you have to defend them the next year so that your ranking doesnt fall.

he needs to take schedule managing sessions from rodga

Trying to stay on topic and not make this another Nadal-steroids fest ... *ahem*

Like I said, Nadal has mentioned in the past not wanting to play extra tournaments just to get a better rank; in that case it was in order not to pass Fed for #1 spot, but the same logic would apply here if his knees are in such dire shape. Of course you want to keep rank up, but even w/ as much time as Nadal missed last year he's still top 4 in the world by a pretty good margin. One would imagine if he missed the Barcelonas and Monte Carlos of the world in order to be totally fit for the slams, his rank would fall no lower than 4 or 5. So keep that "he wants to keep his rank up" argument out of this, it's not like Nadal is going to slip from the top 10 just from missing 2 tournaments. And I think we do agree, he needs schedule management lessons. Hell he needed those 3-4 years ago when his knees were already a problem. If Nadal has missed slams before due to injury (06 AO, 09 Wimbledon), and retired from another one (10 AO) I don't see why he wouldn't pull from regular tour level events in order to stay completely fit for the slams as well.

dropshot winner
03-30-2010, 10:58 AM
So, carpet worked just fine for a decade and a half and all of a sudden it's dangerous for the players?

I call nonsense in all this.

It's a big difference whetever you have 2-stroke rallys on average with mostly foreward movement, or if you have 10-15 stroke rallys with lots of side-to-side movement.

Why else would even players that benefit from fast conditions be against it??

TMF
03-30-2010, 11:05 AM
Trying to stay on topic and not make this another Nadal-steroids fest ... *ahem*



He didnít say anything about steroids. Since now you bought it up it can only open a can of worms.

namelessone
03-30-2010, 11:06 AM
THIS ONE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4jUGufaJek

Where's the 2010 one:) ?

Li Ching Yuen
03-30-2010, 11:07 AM
It's a big difference whetever you have 2-stroke rallys on average with mostly foreward movement, or if you have 10-15 stroke rallys with lots of side-to-side movement.

Why else would even players that benefit from fast conditions be against it??
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?:-|

I can't pick it up.
Anyway, I am for varying up the surfaces that tennis is being played on.

valiant
03-30-2010, 11:08 AM
Love the slow motion, now I'm waiting for the "in depth" analysis.

You sure :shock:

drakulie
03-30-2010, 11:09 AM
Where's the 2010 one:) ?


unfortunately, wasn't able to get video of him this year at the Sony. However, will be posting some slow motion video of him from last year in the next few days. (forehands, backhands).

I put up Karlovic yesterday:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0RbHNOCaws

will be putting up Gonzo, Roddick, Wozniacki, Ferrero, Isner, Fish, Azarenka, Murray, Tipsarivec, Dent, etc over the course of the next few days.

dropshot winner
03-30-2010, 11:11 AM
Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?:-|

I can't pick it up.
Anyway, I am for varying up the surfaces that tennis is being played on.

I was disagreeing. You wrote: "So, carpet worked just fine for a decade and a half and all of a sudden it's dangerous for the players?".

Problem is that the game itself has changed a lot since carpet was introduced. The surface is just not suited for the modern baseline rallys, 2-stroke serve and volley points are a different story.

I do agree with your last sentence, there isn't enough variety these days. But what the game needs are faster and less punishing hardcourts and a grass Masters, not carpet.

CMM
03-30-2010, 11:17 AM
THIS ONE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4jUGufaJek

A video of Nadal picking his butt in Miami doesn't prove that he was training 4 days after Wimbledon started.

drakulie
03-30-2010, 11:18 AM
A video of Nadal picking his butt in Miami doesn't prove that he was training 4 days after Wimbledon started.

prove it. ....

CMM
03-30-2010, 11:21 AM
prove it. ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfAjGyP_VOw

dropshot winner
03-30-2010, 11:24 AM
CMM and drakulie, why are you even arguing? It's not like you'll ever convince the other.

reversef
03-30-2010, 11:35 AM
Nadal already said in the past he doesn't care about ranking that much. He made that more obvious when he skipped Wimbledon which basically gave Fed the top spot. If Nadal doesn't like HC he doesn't have to play them. He can pull out of all the HC tourneys w/ injury for all I care like he did last year at Wimbledon.

If Nadal can't manage his schedule better that's his fault. He has to realize that at a certain point you can't please everyone. Even if that means pulling from your home tournament (like he should've last year w/ either Madrid or Barcelona). HC are too much, but there should be more grass. Clay is fine the way it is currently, Nadal just needs to schedule better and not kill himself playing every CC tourney in the runup to the French.

He doesn't care about the ranking till some extend. If he becomes number ten or twelve and finds the top guys on his road in the fourth round of a GS, he will certainly not like it. Who would? His draw at the Australian Open was as bad as it could be IMO. Getting Murray (who was ranked number 5 for one week, just the week the draw was done) was awful. Bad luck, one of the top guys had to get him in the QF. Those things happen. If you are number ten, it happens all the time. No top player wants that for himself.

reversef
03-30-2010, 11:37 AM
Screw Nadal nobody else wants clay tourneys either. Now dont you worry,
you will eliminated soon and then you can go back to Mallorca to stay with mom and dad.
I agree, let's get rid of all the clay-court players and all the grass players (almost completely done) and then, let's complain about the lack of diversity in the game. An ATP tour looking like the WTA tour looked recently. I'm sure that most tennis fans would love it.

reversef
03-30-2010, 11:39 AM
Uhmm, didn't his parents split?

As for Nadal, he plays two optional clay events in Barcelona and Monte Carlo. Until 2008 he also would play Stuttgart. As for hardcourts he plays optional ones like Rotterdam and Dubai. I think top players more or less have to play 3 500 events, but counting Monte Carlo he plays at least 4 of them a year. Since Monte Carlo still awards 1000 points, he can probably skip Rotterdam without any point penalty. If he wasn't such a ***** to the sheiks, he could skip Dubai to play Acapulco.

He didn't play Dubai last year and didn't play neither Rotterdam or Dubai this year. He doesn't play much at all actually. He plays much less than other top guys.

reversef
03-30-2010, 11:41 AM
....

im pretty sure he couldn't play because his knees were absolutly killing him?:confused:


in regards to playing every CC tournament:

nadal HAS TO

thats where he gains almost all of his points. but the problem with gaining all these points is that you have to defend them the next year so that your ranking doesnt fall.

he needs to take schedule managing sessions from rodga

He can't take schedule managing sessions from Federer because they are completely different players. Which is good for Federer is not good for Nadal.

drakulie
03-30-2010, 11:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfAjGyP_VOw

Thread started by a Die Hard Nadal fan on June 26, 2009:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=270399

reversef
03-30-2010, 11:45 AM
delete post

reversef
03-30-2010, 11:47 AM
I already have. On several dozen occasions, and many of them directed at you. My source is from the "vamosrafelnadal " (same news station all the rafa fans on this board use to provide updates on him).

I didn't read your posts. Can you give me a link?

reversef
03-30-2010, 11:51 AM
So, carpet worked just fine for a decade and a half and all of a sudden it's dangerous for the players?

I call nonsense in all this.

Carpet is very dangerous indeed. Did you play on it? I injured my knee on it and never played competitive tennis after that. It was my favourite surface to play on, but you change your mind when your foot gets stuck on it and you injure yourself.

rommil
03-30-2010, 11:53 AM
Aside from shutting his mouth and doing something about his scheduling, Rafael Nadal has to figure out a way to win title on any surface. It's almost been a year he has not won a title, on ANY surface.

Li Ching Yuen
03-30-2010, 11:54 AM
Carpet is very dangerous indeed. Did you play on it? I injured my knee on it and never played competitive tennis after that. It was my favourite surface to play on, but you change your mind when your foot gets stuck on it and you injure yourself.

Yeah, but they changed it because "some" players whined about it, not because of the reported injuries caused by the nature of the surface.

dropshot winner
03-30-2010, 11:55 AM
Carpet is very dangerous indeed. Did you play on it? I injured my knee on it and never played competitive tennis after that. It was my favourite surface to play on, but you change your mind when your foot gets stuck on it and you injure yourself.

Sorry to hear that. Was it an meniscus/acl tear?

dropshot winner
03-30-2010, 11:57 AM
Yeah, but they changed it because "some" players whined about it, not because of the reported injuries caused by the nature of the surface.

Way before those times carpet surfaces got replaced by hardcourt. It's not hard to guess why players complain about a surface that can end their season with one bad step.

drakulie
03-30-2010, 11:59 AM
Carpet is very dangerous indeed. Did you play on it? I injured my knee on it and never played competitive tennis after that. It was my favourite surface to play on, but you change your mind when your foot gets stuck on it and you injure yourself.

Sorry to hear about your injury, but the same could be said for every surface.

Li Ching Yuen
03-30-2010, 12:01 PM
Grass can be very dangerous too.

dropshot winner
03-30-2010, 12:02 PM
Sorry to hear about your injury, but the same could be said for every surface.

Sure it can happen on any surface, but oldschool carpet is the worst in this regard. You can still slide on hardcourts, but on carpet your foot just stops.

CMM
03-30-2010, 12:04 PM
Thread started by a Die Hard Nadal fan on June 26, 2009:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=270399

You know that those guys could have made a mistake because there were no images of Nadal practicing. They used some old footage and this means that they didn't go to Mallorca to see if Nadal was practicing or not.
On July 20 the same source shows a video of Nadal practicing for the first time, so it's clear that the first "news" wasn't accurate.
You should be ashamed of yourself for starting this rumor.
I won't reply to you anymore.


Actually, I was at Wimbledon the other day and I bumped into Nadal's steroid dealer and he told me that he suspects Nadal might be using steroids.

He says he bases this on something he read in an Italian newspaper, but he isn't sure if it's true because he doesn't actually read Italian so he was just guessing.

:lol::lol:

jamesblakefan#1
03-30-2010, 12:06 PM
He can't take schedule managing sessions from Federer because they are completely different players. Which is good for Federer is not good for Nadal.

It seems to me like you refuse to acknowledge that Rafa's overscheduling has played a part in his injury issues. Season after season he does the same thing on clay, and that does take a toll on the body. The answer isn't to stretch the CC season out even longer, it's for Nadal to manage his schedule better so as to not be out of gas by the time RG comes along.

drakulie
03-30-2010, 12:11 PM
You know that those guys could have made a mistake because there were no images of Nadal practicing. They used some old footage and this means that they didn't go to Mallorca to see if Nadal was practicing or not.


They could have also made a mistake by merely mentioning his existence being that they didn't get any images of him at the time they reported him practicing for a davis cup match (all images were archived footage). For all we know, he was dead. :roll:


Sure it can happen on any surface, but oldschool carpet is the worst in this regard. You can still slide on hardcourts, but on carpet your foot just stops.

Uhmm, each surface has it's own set of problems. On clay, the lines are tacked down, so if one of the tacks is above the surface, one could trip. On hard courts, if one slides, they could roll their ankle over and break it. On grass, one could step on a small ditch, or slide on wet grass and break their leg, or tear their knee, etc, etc, etc.

Bottom line is, if Nadal doesn't like the season, he could retire.

dropshot winner
03-30-2010, 12:16 PM
Uhmm, each surface has it's own set of problems. On clay, the lines are tacked down, so if one of the tacks is above the surface, one could trip. On hard courts, if one slides, they could roll their ankle over and break it. On grass, one could on a small ditch, or slide on wet grass and break their leg, or tear their knee, etc, etc, etc.

All true, but carpet is at a different level when it comes to injuries (if we're talking about baseliners), it takes a lot less to get a serious injury. You don't even need to lose balance for something serious to happen.

In Nadal's case it's obvious that he wants to keep playing on slow surfaces but get rid of the hardcourts. If he wanted just fewer injuries, he'd talk about increasing the speed of slow hardcourts like Miami, Indian Wells and so on.

reversef
03-30-2010, 12:24 PM
Sorry to hear that. Was it an meniscus/acl tear?

Meniscus AND ligaments. :|

reversef
03-30-2010, 12:32 PM
It seems to me like you refuse to acknowledge that Rafa's overscheduling has played a part in his injury issues. Season after season he does the same thing on clay, and that does take a toll on the body. The answer isn't to stretch the CC season out even longer, it's for Nadal to manage his schedule better so as to not be out of gas by the time RG comes along.

IMO, Nadal overscheduled when he was a very young player (pretty common, actually). Now, certainly not. He's first a CC player and only plays 5 tournaments on his surface. It's not what I call "overscheduling". And for the rest of the year, he plays less than most players. I'll never agree with this.

FiveO
03-30-2010, 01:44 PM
Carpet is very dangerous indeed. Did you play on it? I injured my knee on it and never played competitive tennis after that. It was my favourite surface to play on, but you change your mind when your foot gets stuck on it and you injure yourself.

Depends entirely on the carpet used. It's very nature means it can be configured any way one chooses. The carpet used in the '80's at Madison Square Garden was extremely forgiving and not as grabby/grippy as some tacky rubberized varieties.

5

Murray Mound
03-30-2010, 02:20 PM
Real tennis is on wood .

(actually not kidding....the sport is known as "Real Tenni".).

http://www.oratory.co.uk/images/Real_Tennis/photo_RealT_court%20shot2.jpg

Blinkism
03-30-2010, 02:25 PM
Real tennis is on wood .

(actually not kidding....the sport is known as "Real Tenni".).

Yeah but the word "Real" = Royal (in French and Spanish).

Like Real Madrid = Royal Madrid

Murray Mound
03-30-2010, 02:31 PM
Yeah but the word "Real" = Royal (in French and Spanish).

Like Real Madrid = Royal Madrid

So it should be called "Royal tennis" over here.

Looks cool!!....we should play on a wood surface:

http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/nr264/photos/court.jpg

Topaz
03-31-2010, 05:25 AM
Thread started by a Die Hard Nadal fan on June 26, 2009:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=270399

Ahhh, that was some good reading, thanks for the 'blast from the past'!

How is your Italian coming along??? LOL