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Serena2
05-13-2005, 01:33 PM
Ive only just found that i like babolat but ive read lots about people suffering with injuries because of these rackets. whats the real info on this?

Jonnyf
05-13-2005, 01:40 PM
i've had mine going on 6 months and had no problems

Marius_Hancu
05-13-2005, 01:42 PM
search:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/search.php?
keyword: babolat elbow
Search Titles Only

and you will have enough opinions, such as:

Babolat = elbow pain?
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=27161

Any racket with a stiffness around 70 can't help your health and is increasing the probability of being hurt.

I know one of the top 3 juniors in the world and she gave up on BB 3 yrs ago as a result of serious pain. She wouldn't be today where she is.

NoBadMojo
05-13-2005, 01:56 PM
to me..if you make a stiff racquet, you should not make it cheaply and you should engineer something into the frame to dampen shock....to not, is irresponsible in my opinion, and strictly making cheap racquets that are dangerous to your health. i dont think babalot uses much good stuff in their frames (graphite), otherwise they might have a better feel in spite of their stiffness...also contrast a stiff frame like the Volkl V1 which is prob about as stiff as the Babblelot stuff, yet the V1 is known to be a good choice for people with TE and such.

Marius_Hancu
05-13-2005, 02:08 PM
to the original poster:

I also suggest reading several of the postings in the Health forum containing "elbow" or "shoulder" or "pain" or "wrist":-)

and see what people report and recommend in terms of rackets over there

health first

tedmeister
05-15-2005, 03:11 AM
Ive only just found that i like babolat but ive read lots about people suffering with injuries because of these rackets. whats the real info on this?
The Bab frames are going to work out just fine as long as one gets the string type-tension combo right. Soft tissue injuries usually come up when folks start stringing up these stiff frames with stiff polys well beyond the recommended range, beyond 65 :shock: sometimes. The 55 lbs max recommendation on a PD, is almost a waiver on the part of the designers, woofer on there or not, they can say their conciences are clear and string really tight at your own risk.

mattest1
05-15-2005, 09:40 AM
Please advise where I can find a new or used Babolat VS Nanotube Power racquet: grip size 4:4 1/2. Thanks

TennisMD
05-15-2005, 10:21 AM
NoBadMojo, not an engineer, just an MD but curious on what you believe is a good material for a racquets composition, the APD ad states high modulus graphite, the old Volkl C 10 was graphite and kevlar. Any engineers out their to comment on this.

Rafa Nadal
05-15-2005, 10:24 AM
No Problems! Best Racquets for me, very good quality, power, control...

Terre Battu
05-19-2005, 01:28 PM
I recently swithched to PC MP customized to 12oz and started to have elbow pain (severe, had go to physical therapy) in the fourth week that I was using the racquet. I have messed with the stringing and types of strings --- I can't seem to find the right feel.
It could be that even a racquet with a stiffness rating of 65 is too stiff for my game.

I'm thinking of going back to more flexible racquets; a few hundred $$$ is not worth leaving the game. My former coach had to quit due to tennis elbow, I don't want that to ever happen to me.

I guess its back to demo land!


Tennis background: former collegiate, all court player w, semi-w forehand and 1h backhand. Big strokes, slice, and lots of top.

ssjkyle31
05-19-2005, 02:02 PM
I think racket stiffness does play a factor. But it is not the only factor. You have age, physical fitness, genetics, degree of skill and weather. I see to often, people changing rackets without a thought on the basic characteristic of their old rackets. "I had a really nice game with the headheavy racket at 8.9 oz. I am great player I can handle the NCode 90 12.8 oz headlight (and vice verse)." For some the change maybe so small like grip shape have caused players to get TE.

One thing I did observe is that players who have some of the nicest /effortless strokes usually imho have the least chances of getting these types of injuries.

Serena2, in your case you will have to demo the racket. Personally, I don't don't see the big interest in the babolat series. If you looking at the PD, just get the clone, the wilson surge, you will save some money, even buy two or three.

devwizard
05-19-2005, 02:45 PM
I have used Babs (PCZ's, Storms) for about 3 years now, and up to this point have been able to alleviate any pain issues that do come up with changes in stroke technique. The only time I EVER hurt myself is when I go for one of my 110mph bomb serves and either frame it or nearly frame it, making it feel like I have dry fired a bow. But, as some posters here have noted, I think your overall physical condition and stroke technique has a considerable effect on your getting pain from racquets.

Also one other thing to consider, I have always used some type of shock absorber, which could also be part of the reason I don't ever experience problems.

Tenny
05-20-2005, 11:46 AM
high modulus graphite

I don't care if there is a real pro among us. Do we have any material scientist or engineer among us?
What's 'high modulus graphite'? Is it very different from ordinary graphite? When companies use additional material such as ceramic, boron, fiberglass, kevlar, something that used for Vortex (sorry, don't recall what it was) what
do they expect? What else crazy materials were experimented?

FuriousYellow
05-20-2005, 01:38 PM
From TW:

Question: What is Ultra High Modulus Graphite?
Answer: Ultra High Modulus Graphite is the stiffest (and most expensive) grade of graphite. It is lighter and stiffer than standard graphite and titanium. The Modulus (stiffness) Value of Hyper Carbon is 63. Standard Modulus Graphite, which is the most common type found in tennis racquets has a Modulus Value of 30-39. The higher the Modulus Value, the stiffer the graphite is.

http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Reviews/AboutHyperCarbon.html

I did some googling on high modulus graphite and found numerous references to tennis racquets, golf clubs, and fishing rods. This article about fishing rods with high modulus graphite offers a pretty good explanation.

What the *%@# is Modulus? (http://www.flyanglersonline.com/cst/cst010801.html)

Marius_Hancu
05-20-2005, 01:45 PM
I don't care if there is a real pro among us. Do we have any material scientist or engineer among us?
What's 'high modulus graphite'?

read: STIFFER
read: be careful
----------------------------
http://www.pinemeadow-golf.com/clubs101_8.html

High-Modulus Graphite

A shaft material stiffer than standard graphite. The higher the modulus of graphite, the lower its compression strength.

Cobrien
05-20-2005, 01:46 PM
Using a Babolat PD standard it actually caused the two bones in my elbow to move away from each other causing me serious pain.

Jonnyf
05-20-2005, 01:48 PM
has it callum ooooh yeah thats why you always have bandages on
ps its a PD not a pure drive standard
SOZ 2 EVERYONE BUT WERE GOOD MATES

Marius_Hancu
05-20-2005, 01:54 PM
more:

http://www.g r a n d s l a m s t r i n g e r s.com/graphite.htm

Much Ado About Modulus

By Crawford Lindsey
Reprinted with permission from Crawford Lindsey and the USRSA

With all the ballyhoo about titanium lately, we have forgotten about the material that really makes a racquet what it is - graphite. Wilson's introduction of the Hyper Carbon Sledge Hammer has brought graphite back to center stage. But all of a sudden it's not as familiar anymore. We've heard of low, intermediate, high and ultra high modulus graphite, but now there's hyper. And no sooner than you say "hyper," and Prince follows with "extreme." All this can make a person extremely hyper. What's going on here? What is modulus? How do you achieve stiffness and strength?



Modulus and Strength



Modulus is nothing but a fancy word for stiffness. It's a measure of how much a material will stretch if you hang a weight from the end of it. If it stretches a lot, it has a low modulus; a little, it has a high modulus. That's pulling stiffness. There is also flex or bending stiffness. That's measured by supporting both ends of a material and putting a weight in the middle, and measuring how much it bends. Again, a material that bends very little has a high flex modulus. It's one of those confusing things where a little is a lot, and a lot is a little. The strength of a material is how much weight is needed to break the material.



So along comes Wilson with Hyper Carbon. It has a modulus of 63.3 million pounds per square inch and a strength of 612 thousand pounds. Is this "modu-less" or "modu-lot?" It sounds like it should do the job for my wimpy 60 mph serve. Manufacturers have played the "my modulus is bigger than your modulus" game for years. But they played it with kid's gloves. There was no way to determine a winner. "My modulus is intermediate." "Oh yeah, mine is high." "Yeah, well mine is ultra high." Then Wilson changed the rules: "Mine is 63.3 million!"



Big number, but what does it mean? What modulus category does that fall into? It depends on whose rules you play by. Below are Prince's and Wilson's classifications of modulus. Hyper Carbon is ultra high by Wilson's definition and high by Prince's. As much as the modulus game has always been marketing driven, this is great stuff. Notice that both companies agree on intermediate and below since nobody competes over being the most medium. Prince's classification implies that 63.3 is not quite there, and even if it was, there's so much further to go. Wilson's does the opposite - Hyper Carbon is over the top and there's nothing beyond, just the ethereal realm of ">58."



No matter. When you go to the modulus store, what do you have to choose from? The chart below shows the strength and stiffness of real-life graphites from a number of suppliers. Each dot represents a graphite product. The graph is divided into four quadrants with an imaginary product at the extreme of each.



You can see that Hyper Carbon is really out there on the stiffometer. But Stiff-ite is much stiffer still. And look at Buff-ite. That's hyper-strong. The other extremes are the low strength and stiffness Limp-ite, and the high strength and stiffness Halucin-ite. Ideally, you'd like to choose between graphites that follow the arrow up to Halucin-ite, because strength and modulus increase equally along this line. In real life, you can see that as modulus goes up, strength goes down. There are tradeoffs.



Tradeoffs mean it is unlikely we'll see a 100% Hyper Carbon racquet. There are four reasons: First, as previously mentioned, as stiffness goes up, strength goes down. Other grades of graphite must be combined to get a good mix of strength and stiffness. Second, as modulus goes up, so does brittleness. The racquet becomes more susceptible to impact damage. Third, higher modulus is more expensive - there's more energy costs, handling costs and quality control costs. We're talking $1,000 racquets when you start getting into the real stiff stuff. Fourth, as modulus goes up, availability goes down. Wilson's senior engineer Bill Severa put it this way, "It's like the unicorn with certain high modulus graphites. You hear about them, but you can't get a hold of them." Gamma's R&D manager Ron Carr adds, "Some carbon manufacturers have products on their list that exist only in theory. If you want to pay for it, they will make it for you."



Making High Modulus Graphite?



Basically, it's just high tech toast burning. You start with, get this, acrylic sweater yarn, and pull it through a series of high temperature toasters ranging from 1000-3000 degrees centigrade (which is hot, but only our international members know how hot). Depending on how long and how hot you toast, you burn off everything but carbon. The more you burn, the purer the carbon. The fibers are also pulled during heating to align the molecules in the same direction. The degree of purity and alignment add up to the magnitude of the modulus. And of course, more heat means more energy which means more cost.



That's it, Hyper Carbon is hyper toast. Take a piece of bread. Bend it, drop it on the floor. No big deal. Now hyper-toast it. Try bending it - no can do. Drop it - splatter, it breaks into several pieces. It's now stiff and brittle.



But lo and behold, Hyper Carbon racquets don't break on sight. In fact, they hit the 700 million micro cell stuffing out of the new Tretorn balls. (Tretorn, please forgive the erroneous metaphor - it's just an expression.) The secret is in the secret, of course, but reliable sources tell us that the secret of all racquets lies in the lay-up design.



Racquet Lay-Up



You can use all the Hyper Carbon you want, but if you use it incorrectly, you're up the creek with a Limp-ite paddle. Bill Severa expounds, "It would have been easy for us to add 20% Hyper Carbon and not have a noticeable difference. I could probably add it to a racquet with the goal of not making it any different than one without it. The goal, however, is to make it feel significantly different. We did." Wilson's Manager of R&D Po Jen Cheng adds, "There are an infinite number of ways to put together a racquet. The key is how to best use the material to maximize its properties." And Prince's Steve Davis sums it up saying, "I believe racquet construction is dependent on geometry and design. Materials help us perform what these geometries are to do. Design dominates. In that regard, the future is unlimited.



"Whether it's Hyper Carbon or Limp-ite, the strength and stiffness derived from a material depend on the angle of its fibers to the forces caused by the impact of the ball. Sounds like mumbo-jumbo, but to paraphrase Ron Carr, Gamma's R&D Manager, who would never really say the following without throwing in a "cosine" or two, "It's just plywood. You build multiple layers going in different directions.



"Racquets are made of 5 to 10 layers of prepreg. Prepreg is a sheet of graphite fibers laying parallel to each other and coated in an epoxy resin. Because the fibers are parallel, the prepreg is called unidirectional graphite.



There is no such thing as a 100% graphite racquet. At least 40% of a frame's material is resin, or matrix, as it is more commonly known. Hyper or not, graphite fiber is actually useless without the resin matrix which binds the fibers, transfers the load to the fibers, and protects them. Together, the fiber and matrix make up the composite. The strength and stiffness of the composite will fall somewhere between those of the fiber and matrix. So even if you start with Hyper Carbon, by the nature of the beast, the prepreg is semi-hyper. But that's true of all grades of graphites, including Limp-ite which becomes semi-limp (though I don't know if that is better or worse).



Fibers only have strength and stiffness in the direction of their length. It gets complicated, but suffice to say that in the diagram at right, the 0 fibers (in the direction of the racquet length) make the racquet stiff to bending. The 90 fibers are used to stiffen the hoop in the string pull-through direction. All angles in-between will increase torsional stiffness. Designers stack the layers so the strength and stiffness are optimized to match the racquet's target player. To that end, each layer may have different modulus and strength properties to the one above or below it. Wilson, for example, mixes two other modulus fibers with its Hyper Carbon. Bill Severa summarizes saying, "Properties arise in combinations of angles. For example, two specific angles can combine to give great durability. Two others combine for great feel. And two others provide super stiffness. We are very specific as to where we use those combinations on a racquet.



"This is the age of the light-weight racquet. That means making a racquet with very little material, but ones that are very strong and stiff for their weight. Additionally, today's high modulus graphite prepregs can be made half as thick as 10 years ago. That gives us twice as many layers for the same weight. Twice as many layers means many more angle combinations. That means greater customization and optimization of strength and stiffness. This in turn allows using less material overall. Thus our lighter weights.

Jonnyf
05-20-2005, 01:58 PM
thx Marius

AngeloDS
07-30-2005, 05:06 PM
Is there a way to increase the stiffness of the Babolat? From the 70's to the 90's?

mctennis
07-31-2005, 03:12 PM
elbow and wrist pain guaranteed

samster
07-31-2005, 03:45 PM
Could the pure drive standard be the reason why Kim Clijster needed surgery to repair her left wrist? can anybody tell me if she developed the problem while playing with the PD standard. (by the way, I saw her on TV today and she is still using it).

equinox
08-01-2005, 06:42 AM
People need to warm up and stretch properly before blaming the racquet!

That said, i have 3 PD's and they don't get any competition use because of the slight pains i feel when using them.

Indiantwist
08-01-2005, 06:55 AM
Those elbow ,shoulder, leg whatever injuries are more to do with the individual themselves than the racquet. Even with the racquet, the usage of the racquet, the strings, lead taping etc etc all matter.

I am a fan of PD+ because of its performance and what it did to improve my game. It took the Counter puncher out of me into a Shot maker. The only time i had any issues with shoulder\elbow was the first few days (ofcourse.... i am used to playing a 9.2Oz , 110 OS, 28 inch ,8 pts HH racquet. Babolat is a 10.6 OZ, 100 in, 27.5 long 6 pts HL!!!).

Now i can play with that racquet almost forever. The key is Fitness. I try to do the exercises (read the signature of Marius Hancu) prescribed and have no issues.

Here is another observation. The PD+ i use encourages me to go for more shots. This is something i wasnt used to before. I go more on my shots (more energy spent) even when out of position ( poor technique) . One Does this more times because the racquet makes one believe that one can pull off those shots.

bamboo
08-01-2005, 07:05 AM
Those elbow ,shoulder, leg whatever injuries are more to do with the individual themselves than the racquet. Even with the racquet, the usage of the racquet, the strings, lead taping etc etc all matter.

I am a fan of PD+ because of its performance and what it did to improve my game. It took the Counter puncher out of me into a Shot maker. The only time i had any issues with shoulder\elbow was the first few days (ofcourse.... i am used to playing a 9.2Oz , 110 OS, 28 inch ,8 pts HH racquet. Babolat is a 10.6 OZ, 100 in, 27.5 long 6 pts HL!!!).

Now i can play with that racquet almost forever. The key is Fitness. I try to do the exercises (read the signature of Marius Hancu) prescribed and have no issues.

Here is another observation. The PD+ i use encourages me to go for more shots. This is something i wasnt used to before. I go more on my shots (more energy spent) even when out of position ( poor technique) . One Does this more times because the racquet makes one believe that one can pull off those shots.
J. Johansson has an elbow injury and needs shoulder surgery while using an RDX500, so if you're gonna balme Kim's wrist on tweeners, blame players sticks for Joachim's arm desrtuction.