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davey25
05-23-2010, 01:13 PM
It seems most people say Henin is the 2nd best player of this generation after Serena, in fact some have even gone far enough to say she is the best (LOL at those people but anyway). Venus at this moment should be considered the 2nd greatest player of this generation, not Henin.

They both have 7 slams. However Venus has 5 of her slams at the most important event in tennis- Wimbledon. That is even more than Serena. Henin has none.

Venus was denied many slams by Serena at her all time peak in 2002-2003. She would have an additional 3-5 slams otherwise. That is not even considering the potential slams she lost out to Serena in other years like the 08 U.S Open or 09 Wimbledon titles too.

Henin loses out on slams to a variety of players, and most of her slams come at the French Open vs less than stellar competion. Basically she capatilizes on a weak clay court era. The worst surface for both Serena and Venus. Always the worst surface for Davenport and Sharapova as well. Not the best surface for Clijsters who Henin owned mentally from 03-06 anyway. The other top clay courters being either inconsistent headcases or players simply not slam calibre like Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, Dementieva, Safina, Petrova, a past her prime Pierce. Contrast to Venus who has such tough competition on her favorite surfaces, never the relatively free ride Henin gets at the French. Venus also peaked from 1998-2003 when womens tennis was alot tougher than it has been during Henin's peak years.

I would say Venus overall on hard courts is better. Henin has been better on rebound ace with a better Australian Open record. However when both were at their peak in 2003 Venus easily beat Justine there. Venus has been better on the other hard courts. She has won Miami, the biggest medium paced hard court event, many times, while Justine has never won it. At the U.S Open both have won twice, but Venus's overall record is far better. She has lost to the eventual winner every year since 2005 now. Indoors maybe Justine gets a slight edge mostly by basis of playing more on it. She has won the WTA Championships twice and some more fall events as far as I know. Still overall I would give Veus the nod here.

Lastly there is the head to head. 7-2 Venus. Even 1-1 on clay believe it or not.

So Venus at this point should clearly be regarded as the 2nd greatest player of this generation. I do expect Henin will end up with more slams than Venus by the way, perhaps multiple more. She is a couple years younger, it will be easier for her to win the French then it will be for Venus to win Wimbledon from now on, and even at hard court slams Henin seems probably more likely to win at this point than is Venus, certainly in Australia alot more likely. However Henin would need to be over Venus by 2-3 slams and win a Wimbledon before I would even consider putting her over Venus.

Puredrivetennis
05-23-2010, 01:15 PM
Disagree. Henin is a superior player. Also, stating that Wimbo is most important factor in tennis is rather subjective.

drakulie
05-23-2010, 01:18 PM
They both have 7 slams. However Venus has 5 of her slams at the most important event in tennis- Wimbledon. That is even more than Serena. Henin has none.



so then, according to your logic, Venus is greater than Serena.

davey25
05-23-2010, 01:18 PM
Here are some clips from the 2001 Wimbledon final. Henin eating a breadstick and bagel on tennis's biggest stage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ndoAdLbaCI

davey25
05-23-2010, 01:19 PM
so then, according to your logic, Venus is greater than Serena.

No. 5 more slams and a non calender slam is more than enough to compensate for 2 fewer Wimbledons (Serena still has 3 of those). Such things dont exist when comparing Henin to Venus at this point.

drakulie
05-23-2010, 01:20 PM
Oh, I see. You like to "make the rules" as you go along. :roll:

Puredrivetennis
05-23-2010, 01:21 PM
Oh, I see. You like to "make the rules" as you go along. :roll:

agreed. this argument=fail.

Gorecki
05-23-2010, 01:27 PM
Oh, I see. You like to "make the rules" as you go along. :roll:

Davey is a specialist in both tennis and Calvinball

http://forbiddenplanet.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/calvinball.jpg

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-23-2010, 01:32 PM
Disagree. Henin is a superior player. Also, stating that Wimbo is most important factor in tennis is rather subjective.

You can say that if you so choose, but historically and culturally, Wimbledon has always been held in higher regard than the FO.

davey25
05-23-2010, 01:38 PM
What is most telling is at one point many top players skipped the French and nearly all top players skipped the Australian Open. Of course now all the slams are so valuable that is true of all of them, but it is still telling to their importance this was once the case. There was almost nothing that could stop players if healthy from missing Wimbledon or the U.S Open ever since the early 50s atleast now.

drakulie
05-23-2010, 01:48 PM
There was almost nothing that could stop players if healthy from missing Wimbledon or the U.S Open ever since the early 50s atleast now.

I guess Nadal missed the memo last year. But I digress, this last post of yours has nothing to do with Henin/Serna/Venus.

vbranis
05-23-2010, 01:57 PM
Wimbledon (in the WTA) has become the proving grounds for flat baseline-bashing, variety free, power tennis. Of course Venus won it 5 times with her superior athleticism.

The FO is the best place to judge true tennis skill, ability, and talent. No wonder Henin (at 5'5, mind you) won it 4 times and the Williams sisters combined have only won 1.

Back in the S&V days, Wimbledon was the place where the "true" tennis was played, but in today's WTA tour, the FO is a better indicator of someone's game.

Just my 2 cents

jones101
05-23-2010, 02:15 PM
As much as I am a fan of Venus Id put Henin slightly above her in the singles she has won 3 of the 4 slams, overall though, if you include doubles, olympics etc its Venus.

Polaris
05-23-2010, 02:54 PM
Right now Venus 2nd greatest female player of this generation not Henin
Right. Justineheninhoogenbandfan would be soooooo sad.

Oh, I see. You like to "make the rules" as you go along. :roll:
Actually, he also likes to make usernames as he goes along, depending on which player he has a crush on at any given point in time.

MotherMarjorie
05-23-2010, 02:54 PM
(giggles)

Mother Majorie is going to have so much fun in this thread.

(giggles)

Can somone please explain to Mother Marjorie why Venus Williams hasn't been able to win the Australian Open and French Open?

And while your at it, please explain why Venus Williams could only muster up 11 weeks at number one compared to Justine's 117 weeks, if Venus is the 2nd best player of her generation?

jamesblakefan#1
05-23-2010, 02:58 PM
Wimbledon (in the WTA) has become the proving grounds for flat baseline-bashing, variety free, power tennis. Of course Venus won it 5 times with her superior athleticism.

The FO is the best place to judge true tennis skill, ability, and talent. No wonder Henin (at 5'5, mind you) won it 4 times and the Williams sisters combined have only won 1.

Back in the S&V days, Wimbledon was the place where the "true" tennis was played, but in today's WTA tour, the FO is a better indicator of someone's game.

Just my 2 cents

Yes, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Myskina, and Safina all have superior true tennis skill than the WS.

dcdoorknob
05-23-2010, 02:58 PM
in before thelivest restates and reiterates davey's arguement.

vbranis
05-23-2010, 03:02 PM
Yes, Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Myskina, and Safina all have superior true tennis skill than the WS.

Actually, yes. The Williams sisters are all raw power and athleticism, their technique/variety/ball control/skill are not better than those players you mentioned.

davey25
05-23-2010, 03:05 PM
Actually, yes. The Williams sisters are all raw power and athleticism, their technique/variety/ball control/skill are not better than those players you mentioned.

Safina and Ivanovic are the definition of brainless bashers. The Williams play with far more court smarts, control, guile, variety, than they do. And those two have worse technique than Serena, and no better than Venus (who herself does have some technical flaws true).

MotherMarjorie
05-23-2010, 03:06 PM
Oh, I see. You like to "make the rules" as you go along. :roll:
Mother Marjorie thinks its time that certain things are exposed.

Certain things about "making the rules up as he goes along"

Its a pattern that needs more scrutiny....more attention...more Mother Marjorie!

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-23-2010, 03:15 PM
Wimbledon (in the WTA) has become the proving grounds for flat baseline-bashing, variety free, power tennis. Of course Venus won it 5 times with her superior athleticism.

Nonsense. In the past 10 years, how many of your so-called "flat, baseline bashing" type players have won Wimbledon, because Serena and Venus--who won employing skills (in part) gained by their doubles experiences--do not fit your catagory, nor would Mauresmo, either. Sharapova is the only player of the past decade to win the title using your exact style of play, thus your point falls flat.

Jonny S&V
05-23-2010, 03:19 PM
Nonsense. In the past 10 years, how many of your so-called "flat, baseline bashing" type players have won Wimbledon, because Serena and Venus--who won employing skills (in part) gained by their doubles experiences--do not fit your catagory, nor would Mauresmo, either. Sharapova is the only player of the past decade to win the title using your exact style of play, thus your point falls flat.

I don't agree with vbranis to a point, but (other than the blip that is Mauresmo) they didn't play a very variety filled game. Mauresmo would S&V, hit deep slices, loopy topspin, etc... With the Williams sisters, it is forward forward forward. I'm not knocking this tactic, as it is quite successful for them, but it can make for some hard winners and that's it, nothing that is interesting for me, haha.

jamesblakefan#1
05-23-2010, 03:23 PM
I don't agree with vbranis to a point, but (other than the blip that is Mauresmo) they didn't play a very variety filled game. Mauresmo would S&V, hit deep slices, loopy topspin, etc... With the Williams sisters, it is forward forward forward. I'm not knocking this tactic, as it is quite successful for them, but it can make for some hard winners and that's it, nothing that is interesting for me, haha.

Still though, v's point falls flat when you have bashers like Safina and Ivanovic in the later stages of RG in recent years, and even Sharapova, the picture of ballbashing baselining, has made it further at RG than at Wimbledon in recent years. That in and of itself makes v's point about 'true tennis skill' being needed at RG moot. Just another excuse to rationalize Henin's lack of a Wimbledon title, it seems.

vbranis
05-23-2010, 03:24 PM
Nonsense. In the past 10 years, how many of your so-called "flat, baseline bashing" type players have won Wimbledon, because Serena and Venus--who won employing skills (in part) gained by their doubles experiences--do not fit your catagory, nor would Mauresmo, either. Sharapova is the only player of the past decade to win the title using your exact style of play, thus your point falls flat.

Mauresmo, true, is the only exception. The Williamses have a power game that lacks variety, how many times have you seen them slice, drop shot, or hit topspin? They simply hit thru their opponents.

Kuznetsova, Henin, Myskina, and Pierce all had very good court skills and variety. Ivanovic in '08 was the odd-one out.

davey25
05-23-2010, 03:28 PM
Pierce very good all court skills and variety? On which planet.

I loved reading Nick Bolletieri's book where before her breakthrough slam at the 94 French he told her something like Mary dont take this personally but you arent very smart on the court. In fact you are rather stupid out there. So dear dont think, just go out there and smack the ball, clobber the heck out of it. Dont bother to think, just hammer your groundstrokes.

Jonny S&V
05-23-2010, 03:33 PM
Still though, v's point falls flat when you have bashers like Safina and Ivanovic in the later stages of RG in recent years, and even Sharapova, the picture of ballbashing baselining, has made it further at RG than at Wimbledon in recent years. That in and of itself makes v's point about 'true tennis skill' being needed at RG moot. Just another excuse to rationalize Henin's lack of a Wimbledon title, it seems.

I don't know why everyone thinks that Henin should win a Wimbledon title... Although she certainly has the most complete game on tour right now, her grips on her groundstrokes prevent her from being as good as she can be at Wimbledon. That being said, those strokes don't hurt her on any other surface, and she still goes far at a few Wimbledons that she has played, therefore, I would say that Henin is the better player than Williams. I wouldn't call Safina a ball-basher as much as some of the other's mentioned, as she knows when to use heavy topspin and when to attempt to finish the point off. Kuznetsova has a far more variety filled game than the Williams sisters, obviously Henin does, and Myskina was a beautiful mover who has pretty strokes. The only players besides the Williams sisters that haven't had variety filled games to win the French are Pierce and Ivanovic.

jamesblakefan#1
05-23-2010, 03:43 PM
I don't know why everyone thinks that Henin should win a Wimbledon title... Although she certainly has the most complete game on tour right now, her grips on her groundstrokes prevent her from being as good as she can be at Wimbledon. That being said, those strokes don't hurt her on any other surface, and she still goes far at a few Wimbledons that she has played, therefore, I would say that Henin is the better player than Williams. I wouldn't call Safina a ball-basher as much as some of the other's mentioned, as she knows when to use heavy topspin and when to attempt to finish the point off. Kuznetsova has a far more variety filled game than the Williams sisters, obviously Henin does, and Myskina was a beautiful mover who has pretty strokes. The only players besides the Williams sisters that haven't had variety filled games to win the French are Pierce and Ivanovic.

Agreed about Henin being ahead of Venus all time. Also I think the benefit of the doubt about Henin's lack of Wimbledon titles went out the window when she admitted she lost to Bartoli in 07 b/c she was scared of facing Venus in the final.

http://www.gototennisblog.com/2009/12/09/justine-henin-scared-of-the-williams-sisters-inspired-by-federer/

Jonny S&V
05-23-2010, 03:45 PM
Agreed about Henin being ahead of Venus all time. Also I think the benefit of the doubt about Henin's lack of Wimbledon titles went out the window when she admitted she lost to Bartoli in 07 b/c she was scared of facing Venus in the final.

http://www.gototennisblog.com/2009/12/09/justine-henin-scared-of-the-williams-sisters-inspired-by-federer/

It's hard to beat a hard, flat ball on a slicker surface with unpredictable bounces with Henin's grips and swing path.

davey25
05-23-2010, 03:47 PM
Agreed about Henin being ahead of Venus all time. Also I think the benefit of the doubt about Henin's lack of Wimbledon titles went out the window when she admitted she lost to Bartoli in 07 b/c she was scared of facing Venus in the final.

http://www.gototennisblog.com/2009/12/09/justine-henin-scared-of-the-williams-sisters-inspired-by-federer/

So a player who admits she is "scared" of another player (backed up by a 2-7 head to head) should rate above this other player all time when they are tied in slam titles, and the player who is not scared is the one with 5 titles at the Worlds biggest event vs 0 for the other?

Jonny S&V
05-23-2010, 03:51 PM
So a player who admits she is "scared" of another player (backed up by a 2-7 head to head) should rate above this other player all time when they are tied in slam titles, and the player who is not scared is the one with 5 titles at the Worlds biggest event vs 0 for the other?

On grass, who wants to play Venus? Serena is probably the only player in the world not scared of playing Venus on grass. Wimbledon can be won with simple, easy tactics because the points are so short, the French requires actual strategy (unless you can hit opponents off the court, ala Serena/Ivanovic/etc...). Yes, Henin was the more well-rounded player and dominated far more than Venus did, therefore, it's my opinion that she was better.

davey25
05-23-2010, 03:56 PM
Henin only had one truly dominat year thus far- 2007. She was far and away the best women player in the World that year, something Serena in her autobiography even admits. There are 2 other years she was arguably, but not undisputably, the best- 2003 and 2006. Some would also argue Mauresmo was the best player in the World in 2006, and many would say Serena was in 2003 as it was only her injury (likely) that allowed Justine to end the year with the slightly better overall results.

Venus had 2 years she was considered clearly the games most dominant player- 2000 and 2001. She did not dominate either year overall as much as Justine in 2007, but she did win the 2 biggest events both years, with Justine with her failure to win Wimbledon didnt do even in 2007. She had 2 other years where outside of clay she completely dominated everyone other than a peak Serena- 2002 and 2003. She overall dominated Wimbledon just as much as Henin the French until now.

So I wouldnt say there is a big difference in dominance either way. Both failed to produce any sustained long term dominance of the game.

vbranis
05-23-2010, 03:57 PM
On grass, who wants to play Venus? Serena is probably the only player in the world not scared of playing Venus on grass. Wimbledon can be won with simple, easy tactics because the points are so short, the French requires actual strategy (unless you can hit opponents off the court, ala Serena/Ivanovic/etc...). Yes, Henin was the more well-rounded player and dominated far more than Venus did, therefore, it's my opinion that she was better.

I agree 100%.

Venus > Henin on grass, no doubt about it. Power rules at Wimbledon, and no one has more power than Venus. However, it is not a true indicator of who is the better overall player.

davey25
05-23-2010, 04:01 PM
If grass were all about power then players like Seles and Pierce would have won there at some point, yet neither even came close (unless you count Seles's destruction in the 92 final as getting close). And Davenport would have won it more than once. Does anyone really think there would have been a Novotna vs Tauziat final and a Mauresmo vs Henin final at Wimbledon if it were all about power.

Many of the power players of the last 20 years hate grass and find it their worst. Venus and Serena love it since they have it all there- the great serves, the overall power, the return of serve skill, the volleying skills, the transition game, the overall athleticsm, and the great ability to move on that slick grass.

Jonny S&V
05-23-2010, 04:03 PM
Henin only had one truly dominat year thus far- 2007. She was far and away the best women player in the World that year, something Serena in her autobiography even admits. There are 2 other years she was arguably, but not undisputably, the best- 2003 and 2006. Some would also argue Mauresmo was the best player in the World in 2006, and many would say Serena was in 2003 as it was only her injury (likely) that allowed Justine to end the year with the slightly better overall results.

Venus had 2 years she was considered clearly the games most dominant player- 2000 and 2001. She did not dominate either year overall as much as Justine in 2007, but she did win the 2 biggest events both years, with Justine with her failure to win Wimbledon didnt do even in 2007. She had 2 other years where outside of clay she completely dominated everyone other than a peak Serena- 2002 and 2003. She overall dominated Wimbledon just as much as Henin the French until now.

So I wouldnt say there is a big difference in dominance either way. Both failed to produce any sustained long term dominance of the game.

Yes, but Henin has spent more time than even Serena at #1. Henin was a better player throughout the year at any tournament she played at (save for grass) because Venus didn't care enough about the smaller tourneys. That being said, now all Venus can settle for is smaller tourneys. All Venus can ever win from now until she calls it quits it Wimbledon. The same can't be said about Henin, who can compete on any surface (even grass, doesn't mean she'll win often on grass however).

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-23-2010, 04:04 PM
Mauresmo, true, is the only exception. The Williamses have a power game that lacks variety, how many times have you seen them slice, drop shot, or hit topspin? They simply hit thru their opponents.

Are you actually saying they have not employed those skills? Furthermore, their understanding of the net was a significant reason for their combined Wimbledon titles; neither could have won playing like Dementieva or Safina.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-23-2010, 04:09 PM
the French requires actual strategy

Kuznetsova winning with her type of play/skillset is a strong counter-argument to your view. Let's not forget that another notorious basher--Vaidisova--made a deep run at the FO using her one-dimensional bashing game. Playing the FO does not necessarily require the complexity you think it does.

Jonny S&V
05-23-2010, 04:09 PM
If grass were all about power then players like Seles and Pierce would have won there at some point, yet neither even came close (unless you count Seles's destruction in the 92 final as getting close). And Davenport would have won it more than once. Does anyone really think there would have been a Novotna vs Tauziat final and a Mauresmo vs Henin final at Wimbledon if it were all about power.

Many of the power players of the last 20 years hate grass and find it their worst. Venus and Serena love it since they have it all there- the great serves, the overall power, the return of serve skill, the volleying skills, the transition game, the overall athleticsm, and the great ability to move on that slick grass.

I destroy that arguement with this: They couldn't move. Serena and Venus are physical specimens, and they can get away with things (not to mention do things) that mere mortals can't do. All of the players that win Wimbledon (save for Sharapova and Davenport, amongst others) can move better. I'm just saying that the tactics at Wimbledon on the women's side tends to be very one-dimensional, whilst players with more varied games and tactics can win Roland Garros.

Jonny S&V
05-23-2010, 04:11 PM
Kuznetsova winning with her type of play/skillset is a strong counter-argument to your view. Let's not forget that another notorious basher--Vaidisova--made a deep run at the FO using her one-dimensional bashing game. Playing the FO does not necessarily require the complexity you think it does.

No, it's not just the variety of the strokes, but the strategy that she employed against Safina. Vaidisova just hit a hot streak that few players can reach, and she just destroyed with her serve and groundstroke. Kuznetsova was using every inch of the court to beat Safina (when Safina didn't self-implode).

vortex1
05-23-2010, 04:17 PM
Fail thread. Henin is a better all court player than Venus and isn't done winning slams at only 27. Granny Venus is pretty much finished as far as slams go.

davey25
05-23-2010, 04:17 PM
I destroy that arguement with this: They couldn't move. Serena and Venus are physical specimens, and they can get away with things (not to mention do things) that mere mortals can't do. All of the players that win Wimbledon (save for Sharapova and Davenport, amongst others) can move better. I'm just saying that the tactics at Wimbledon on the women's side tends to be very one-dimensional, whilst players with more varied games and tactics can win Roland Garros.

Yet if it were all about power why would movement matter? If you are admiting you need movement, usually great movement, to win Wimbledon then it obviously isnt just about power anyway.

I would argue all the players who have won Wimbledon of late can also volley with few exceptions.

Navratilova- best volleyer ever
Venus- great volleyer
Serena- very good volleyer
Mauresmo- excellecent volleyer
Graf- reasonably good volleyer
Hingis- very good volleyer
Novotna- great at the net
Davenport- pretty good volleyer as her doubles record shows

So only Sharapova of winners since 1980 could not volley that well. That is another large reason Pierce and Seles couldnt win Wimbledon in addition to their clunky movement.

boredone3456
05-23-2010, 04:35 PM
It seems most people say Henin is the 2nd best player of this generation after Serena, in fact some have even gone far enough to say she is the best (LOL at those people but anyway). Venus at this moment should be considered the 2nd greatest player of this generation, not Henin.

Disagree completely

They both have 7 slams. However Venus has 5 of her slams at the most important event in tennis- Wimbledon. That is even more than Serena. Henin has none.

Henin has won 3 of the 4, and could very well add more to her 7 before she retires, where as Venus would be able to add 1 Wimbledon, 2 at absolute Best, assuming her sister doesn't end up on the net opposite her or if she does chooses to let het win. By your logic, Venus's surface/slam centric record is more important than Henin's? Take out Wimbledon for Venus she has 2 US Opens,2 US Open finals 1 Aussie Final, and 1 French Open Final (the last of which she should be thankful for a gifted draw from someone up there).Take out Henin's Frenches and she has 2 US Opens, 1 US Open Final, 1 Australian open and 1 final, and 2 Wimbledon Finals. Henin has more across the surface acheivement at the biggest slams, and is better at her worst slam than Venus. Seems like according to this logic, Venus is better despite the fact that she seems to only consistently show strong 2 weeks out of the yr some years.

Venus was denied many slams by Serena at her all time peak in 2002-2003. She would have an additional 3-5 slams otherwise. That is not even considering the potential slams she lost out to Serena in other years like the 08 U.S Open or 09 Wimbledon titles too.

Venus would likely not have won the 2002 French, take out Serena and Venus likely doesn't get her dream draw to the final and goes out early like she did in 2001. Serena owns Venus in slams other than Wimbledon, Venus could have won all those slams and didn't, Serena is better, I could just as easily say Henin could have won the 2005 Aussie, the 2008 & 2009 Frenches, both the 2006 and 2008 Australians (if not for Sharapova)...so thats another 3-5 slams for her to...those arguments work both ways.

Henin loses out on slams to a variety of players, and most of her slams come at the French Open vs less than stellar competion. Basically she capatilizes on a weak clay court era. The worst surface for both Serena and Venus. Always the worst surface for Davenport and Sharapova as well.

Venus won several Wimbledons against pretty poor Grass Court fields apart from her sister, Mauresmo and Davenport, and Sharapova one year. Henin has numerous wins over all those players you mentioned except for Venus, against whom most of her matches occured well before Henin hit her actual prime.

Not the best surface for Clijsters who Henin owned mentally from 03-06 anyway. The other top clay courters being either inconsistent headcases or players simply not slam calibre like Kuznetsova, Ivanovic, Jankovic, Dementieva, Safina, Petrova, a past her prime Pierce.

True but that is also the Grass Court field That Williams was Facing throughout some of her Wimbledons, and Dementieva could even be argued as the 3rd best grass courter right now with SF's at Wimbledon the past 2 yrs (what does that tell you?), once again, that argument can go both ways

Contrast to Venus who has such tough competition on her favorite surfaces, never the relatively free ride Henin gets at the French. Venus also peaked from 1998-2003 when womens tennis was alot tougher than it has been during Henin's peak years.

That is partially true, but all her Wimbledons won since 2003 were against overall weak grass court fields apart from Serena, Mauresmo Davenport and Sharapova for like, 2 years. And Venus was struggling against lower ranked players in some of her Wimbledon wins, Almost lost to Morigami, Kudrayetseva (probably spelled that wrong), lost to Jankovic (who has never been past the 4th rd of Wimbledon), needed a 22 point tiebreak to beat Pierce in the 2nd set on arguably her worst surface...and so on. Venus struggled against weaker opponents on her favorite surface more often Henin during her prime on her own. The part of Venus's peak yrs being tougher in depth is true, although I wouldn't say it was a lot tougher, 2003 and 2006 were not abysmally worse than 1998-2003...2007 was the beginning of the downturn.

I would say Venus overall on hard courts is better. Henin has been better on rebound ace with a better Australian Open record. However when both were at their peak in 2003 Venus easily beat Justine there. Venus has been better on the other hard courts.

Henin's peak didn't start till roughly the clay court season in 2003, and her real peak was 06-07...I would put Henin of 06-07>>>>03 in terms of peak level. Although It is Debatable about the Hard Court abilities, Venus is better slightly on Faster Hardcourts, Henin is better on slower ones.

She has won Miami, the biggest medium paced hard court event, many times, while Justine has never won it. At the U.S Open both have won twice, but Venus's overall record is far better. She has lost to the eventual winner every year since 2005 now.

True, Henin has an inferior record at the US Open, but both have the same number of titles...so in the end many people will just look at that. As for losing to the eventual Champion of every US Open since 2005...that is a strange coincidence of the nature of draws, although it is a nice factoid, don't really see how it factors into the discussion. Unless the implication is that she would have won all of those US Opens had she won those matches..which is possible...in 2007 yes. 2008..maybe, Jankovic gave her more trouble then she did Serena around that time, and I think the scoreline would have been even tighter than the Serena/Jankovic one was. The 2009 US Open...not likely, Venus was struggling, wrapped up, and even if she beat clijsters at best would have made the semi's, and probably loses to Serena there.


Indoors maybe Justine gets a slight edge mostly by basis of playing more on it. She has won the WTA Championships twice and some more fall events as far as I know. Still overall I would give Veus the nod here.

So you give Venus an overall nod on a surface whether she has more achievement on it or not? Henin>>>>>Venus on indoors. Overall Henin has acheived more, since you use achievements to put Venus over Henin on Harcourts, you should use the same criteria for other surfaces should you not?

Lastly there is the head to head. 7-2 Venus. Even 1-1 on clay believe it or not.

Seeing as how all of Venus's wins came before Henin's prime that really doesn't mean much. I would pretty much throw out the H2H, as Henin's biggest win in 2007 was when Venus was past her own prime. Their H2H is very misleading and includes a giant 4 yr gap, given the times when all the matches occured. They never got the chance to play in their actual primes, if they played 9 matches both at their peak, that H2H would be a lot closer.

[/QUOTE]So Venus at this point should clearly be regarded as the 2nd greatest player of this generation. I do expect Henin will end up with more slams than Venus by the way, perhaps multiple more. She is a couple years younger, it will be easier for her to win the French then it will be for Venus to win Wimbledon from now on, and even at hard court slams Henin seems probably more likely to win at this point than is Venus, certainly in Australia alot more likely. However Henin would need to be over Venus by 2-3 slams and win a Wimbledon before I would even consider putting her over Venus.[/QUOTE]

So if Henin gets to Doubles digits and has more wins at 3 of the 4 slams then Venus and more slams overall(which all she needs to do to accomplish this is win 1 more US Open) Venus is still better if Henin doesn't win Wimbledon? Despite the fact that Venus has no French or Australians and most likely never will? Or if Henin completes a career slam this year (which I don't think will happen but who knows) Venus will still be better after Wimbledon this year if Henin does this? I think the strain of having multiple IDS must be getting to you.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-23-2010, 04:44 PM
I destroy that arguement with this: They couldn't move. Serena and Venus are physical specimens, and they can get away with things (not to mention do things) that mere mortals can't do. All of the players that win Wimbledon (save for Sharapova and Davenport, amongst others) can move better.

There's argument for Martina, but King, Evert, Wade, Goolagong, Martinez (???) or Hingis (???) are better movers?? Think about that. Moreover, the idea of Venus (not Serena) being a better mover than Graf would not be the first time i've heard that.

I'm just saying that the tactics at Wimbledon on the women's side tends to be very one-dimensional, whilst players with more varied games and tactics can win Roland Garros.

Again, the history of the past decade of Wimbledon ladies champions (with one exception) do not support your theory.

Jonny S&V
05-23-2010, 04:51 PM
There's argument for Martina, but King, Evert, Wade, Goolagong, Martinez (???) or Hingis (???) are better movers?? Think about that. Moreover, the idea of Venus (not Serena) being a better mover than Graf would not be the first time i've heard that.

Gah, I really need to be face-to-face to make my arguments, not so great at putting it into words I suppose... Because of the shorter points, Wimbledon doesn't support as varied of shots and plays as Roland Garros, since the points are longer. It isn't as easy to see this on the WTA tour, and is far more prevalent on the ATP tour.


Again, the history of the past decade of Wimbledon ladies champions (with one exception) do not support your theory.

You're saying the William's sisters have varied games? Mauresmo is the only player who varied her tactics and placement and used the entire court, while the Williams sisters only tried to hit through opponents (for the most part).

Puredrivetennis
05-23-2010, 05:15 PM
I agree Jonny... Wimbo for the WTA (and much of womens tennis in general) has become "who can hit the ball hardest, until someone makes an error".. no thought processes, no flair.. very different game nowadays

IvanMalison
05-23-2010, 06:35 PM
Wimbledon (in the WTA) has become the proving grounds for flat baseline-bashing, variety free, power tennis. Of course Venus won it 5 times with her superior athleticism.

The FO is the best place to judge true tennis skill, ability, and talent. No wonder Henin (at 5'5, mind you) won it 4 times and the Williams sisters combined have only won 1.

Back in the S&V days, Wimbledon was the place where the "true" tennis was played, but in today's WTA tour, the FO is a better indicator of someone's game.

Just my 2 cents

Agreed. Justine is at a huge disadvantage with her height. Just give her 3-5 more inches and her chances at Wimbledon etc. increase a great deal.

halalula1234
05-23-2010, 11:08 PM
i love venus and i want her to win the aus and the french! dont tell me that it wont happend i already know that but i still believe in her

MotherMarjorie
05-24-2010, 12:49 AM
Pierce very good all court skills and variety? On which planet.

I loved reading Nick Bolletieri's book where before her breakthrough slam at the 94 French he told her something like Mary dont take this personally but you arent very smart on the court. In fact you are rather stupid out there. So dear dont think, just go out there and smack the ball, clobber the heck out of it. Dont bother to think, just hammer your groundstrokes.
Well, there was your problem. I wouldn't exactly place Nick Bolletieri on an coaching pedastal, considering Mary is a grand slam champion who didn't have great on-court movement.

Re: Bolletieri, see Andre Agassi.

TMF
05-24-2010, 01:23 PM
Henin is the the 2nd best player in this era. With Venus having a much longer career, she should be a few slams ahead of Henin instead having 7. Plus, Henin won more year end championship, having way more weeks at #1, and 3 years end #1 while Venus has ZERO! Henin’s career totally outclassed Venus. There’s no way Venus can be above Henin, anyone who believe it are lying to themselves. Venus is overrated while Henin is so easily overlooked simply b/c she came from a small country.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-24-2010, 01:30 PM
Henin is so easily overlooked simply b/c she came from a small country.

That is the most hollow, reactionary excuse i've ever read--one you cannot possibly support with facts.

TMF
05-24-2010, 01:54 PM
That is the most hollow, reactionary excuse i've ever read--one you cannot possibly support with facts.

Only a **** like would ignore facts.

davey25
05-24-2010, 02:09 PM
Here are the facts:

Wimbledon titles at this moment- Venus 5, Henin 0
Head to head- Venus 7 wins, Henin 2 wins

Of course as the adoration with Monica Seles shows people on TW seem to think failure to win Wimbledon is in fact a booster to tennis greatness.

sillymonkey
05-24-2010, 02:16 PM
Have you seen Venus' outfit? She's all over the internet with photos of her bum! Everyone's trying to figure out if she's gone commando or what. Quite sheer and risque.

TMF
05-24-2010, 02:30 PM
Here are the facts:

Wimbledon titles at this moment- Venus 5, Henin 0
Head to head- Venus 7 wins, Henin 2 wins

Of course as the adoration with Monica Seles shows people on TW seem to think failure to win Wimbledon is in fact a booster to tennis greatness.

Here’s the fact:

Weeks at #1
Henin 117
Venus 11

9 other players in Venus’s era– Ivanovic, Mauresmo, Safina, Jankovic, Capriati, Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingis are all ahead of Venus!

Year end #1
Henin 3
Venus 0!!!

You’ll have to start to question if Venus is even the 3rd best player in this era.

davey25
05-24-2010, 02:35 PM
Here’s the fact:

Weeks at #1
Henin 117
Venus 11

9 other players in Venus’s era– Ivanovic, Mauresmo, Safina, Jankovic, Capriati, Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingis are all ahead of Venus!

Year end #1
Henin 3
Venus 0!!!

You’ll have to start to question if Venus is even the 3rd best player in this era.

I guess Davenport with her 4 year end #1s is the greatest player of the last 12 years, or Hingis with all her weeks at #1. Not any of Serena, Henin, or Venus. I guess Safina with all those weeks at #1 is a much better player than Mandlikova who never ranked #1 or Venus who spent less time there. Jankovic who ended a year at #1 must also be greater than Venus, Mandlikova, and Sanchez Vicario who never did. Sorry you fail once again.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-24-2010, 05:24 PM
I guess Davenport with her 4 year end #1s is the greatest player of the last 12 years, or Hingis with all her weeks at #1. Not any of Serena, Henin, or Venus. I guess Safina with all those weeks at #1 is a much better player than Mandlikova who never ranked #1 or Venus who spent less time there. Jankovic who ended a year at #1 must also be greater than Venus, Mandlikova, and Sanchez Vicario who never did. Sorry you fail once again.

Wise post, and yes, TMF fails again, since she is clearly history challenged--otherwise, she would have avoided making her scattered anti-Williams post in regards to the ranking issue. Sometimes--well, everytime--it is so easy to disassemble her posts with historical truth.

vbranis
05-24-2010, 05:43 PM
Here are the facts:

Wimbledon titles at this moment- Venus 5, Henin 0
Head to head- Venus 7 wins, Henin 2 wins

Of course as the adoration with Monica Seles shows people on TW seem to think failure to win Wimbledon is in fact a booster to tennis greatness.

OK, fair enough. So would you consider Novotna to be a better player than Sanchez-Vicario simply because she won Wimbledon and has a winning H2H? Or that Krajicek is better than Lendl? He did win Wimbledon and leads the H2H 2-1...

Puredrivetennis
05-24-2010, 05:49 PM
OK, fair enough. So would you consider Novotna to be a better player than Sanchez-Vicario simply because she won Wimbledon and has a winning H2H? Or that Krajicek is better than Lendl? He did win Wimbledon and leads the H2H 2-1...

you win :lol: very well said... this seems like a completely empty argument imo.. henin>williams

Dreamer
05-24-2010, 05:51 PM
The problem with Venus is that her time at the top was overlapped with her sister overshadowing her. After that her career has been riddled with injury.

It's sad it turned out this way, but that's how it is. As for me I wouldn't pick one over the other. They haven't retired yet and I find the argument meaningless.

There are a lot of Henin fans and she deserves the credit, she's an exceptional player especially for her size and regardless of her size. Venus is a great champion and at her peak I honestly believe she's 2nd to no one. The number of grand slams will be tallied once they are both retired. In any case they both should be respected, no use for argument.

davey25
05-24-2010, 05:52 PM
OK, fair enough. So would you consider Novotna to be a better player than Sanchez-Vicario simply because she won Wimbledon and has a winning H2H?

Sanchez Vicario has 4 slams and Novotna 1. Novotna has 1 more Wimbledon than Sanchez. Big difference from having the same # of slams, yet one having 5 Wimbledons to 0. The head to head is virtually tied.

For what it is worth though I do consider Novotna the clearly more talented player of those two. Sanchez Vicario really maximized her limited talent and should be commended for that, and was also probably the biggest beneficiary of all of the Seles stabbing as she was now the one left to pick up the scraps when Graf faltered or was injured. Seles owned Sanchez Vicario completely their entire careers. So I dont consider Sanchez Vicario a much better player than Novotna by any stretch. She really is a lucky and inflated 4 slam winner, and I am not surprised she never won Wimbledon.

TMF
05-24-2010, 05:57 PM
Then you are a textbook ****, as your post still sits free of anything which would support your reactionary post about the treatment of Henin. Of course, this is further hammered home with your next response (quoted above) was (as expected) flames instead of facts.

You fail again.

Either you can't read or simply blind.


Here’s the fact:

Weeks at #1
Henin 117
Venus 11

9 other players in Venus’s era– Ivanovic, Mauresmo, Safina, Jankovic, Capriati, Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingis are all ahead of Venus!

Year end #1
Henin 3
Venus 0!!!

Added to the fact Venus played a hell of a lot more tennis than Henin but still came up short.

You want to be blind, fine with me...it's your life!

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-24-2010, 08:03 PM
Either you can't read or simply blind.


Here’s the fact:

Weeks at #1
Henin 117
Venus 11

9 other players in Venus’s era– Ivanovic, Mauresmo, Safina, Jankovic, Capriati, Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingis are all ahead of Venus!

Year end #1
Henin 3
Venus 0!!!

Added to the fact Venus played a hell of a lot more tennis than Henin but still came up short.

You want to be blind, fine with me...it's your life!

You were already rendered woefully incorrect several posts ago with that which you are still running away from:

I guess Davenport with her 4 year end #1s is the greatest player of the last 12 years, or Hingis with all her weeks at #1. Not any of Serena, Henin, or Venus. I guess Safina with all those weeks at #1 is a much better player than Mandlikova who never ranked #1 or Venus who spent less time there. Jankovic who ended a year at #1 must also be greater than Venus, Mandlikova, and Sanchez Vicario who never did. Sorry you fail once again.

...then you followed that act of running scared with flames. Your god Henin simply does not measure up to Venus' standing legacy when Henin failed to live up to the hype from creatures like you and win multiple Wimbledon titles--the biggest of all slams.

davey25
05-24-2010, 08:06 PM
The greatest female players of this generation at this moment:

1. Serena
2. Venus
----gap-----
3. Henin
-----gap----
4. Hingis
5. Davenport
6. Clijsters- career underachiever at this moment but with her newfound mental approach she could change that somewhat if she can stay healthy.
7. Sharapova- huge overachiever (and for you Maria fanatics that is meant as a compliment as much as I hate her game)
8. Mauresmo- major underachiever.
9. Capriati- another bigtime overachiever. again that is a compliment.
10. Kuznetsova

The above players have all won multiple majors, the pinacle of the sport. Only the first two have won multiple Wimbledon, the ultimate of the sport.

jamesblakefan#1
05-24-2010, 08:19 PM
But doesn't the fact that Henin's done better at her worse slam Wimbledon than Venus has at RG certainly come into consideration? It's certainly close but if Henin wins another RG this year I'd think she takes the clear edge if she doesn't have it already. I don't see the big gap that you speak of between Henin and Venus. Both have their merits and weaknesses.

davey25
05-24-2010, 08:32 PM
But doesn't the fact that Henin's done better at her worse slam Wimbledon than Venus has at RG certainly come into consideration? It's certainly close but if Henin wins another RG this year I'd think she takes the clear edge if she doesn't have it already. I don't see the big gap that you speak of between Henin and Venus. Both have their merits and weaknesses.

That is definitely something in Henin's favor over Venus. It just isnt enough to compensate, atleast for me, Venus winning 5 times at the Worlds most prestigious tournament to Henin's 0 when both have 7 overall slams. Or to look at it another way Venus winning 7 times at the Worlds 2 most prestigious tournaments to Henin's 2 when both have 7 overall slams. Henin is probably a bit more all surface, since like you said she has done better at Wimbledon than Venus at the French, but still not enough to compensate the huge disparity at the most imporant events in tennis.

Venus also was an excellent clay courter from 1998-2004. She underachieved overall at the French imparticular the years 1999, 2001, and 2004, she should have fared much better those years. I am not making excuses for Venus, I know her results stands and that is what should be evaluated. Just saying her actual ability on clay in her prime if is probably better than her overall French Open record, and is backed up by her many tier 1 and tier 2 titles than Serena (much more than Serena in fact who has a much better French Open record).

I was probably exagerrating to put a gap between them but I still think Venus at this point is ahead. Her best ever tennis too is just of a higher level than Henin's, and she is a more intimidating player to face in general. Considering they both have won 7 slams those sorts of things become tiebreakers too. Venus also was considered clearly the best player in the World in 2000 and 2001 regardless of rankings. Henin was only clearly (2003 and 2006 she was arguably but not clearly) the best player in the World in 2007, and she wasnt even recognized as that convincingly until she won the U.S Open. So Venus has spent more time as the undisputed best player in the World than Henin.

vbranis
05-24-2010, 08:56 PM
Also, it's worth mentioning that Henin has a better career match win ratio (.820 compared to .804 for Venus)

fedhingis515
05-24-2010, 09:29 PM
The greatest female players of this generation at this moment:

1. Serena
2. Venus
----gap-----
3. Henin
-----gap----
4. Hingis
5. Davenport
6. Clijsters- career underachiever at this moment but with her newfound mental approach she could change that somewhat if she can stay healthy.
7. Sharapova- huge overachiever (and for you Maria fanatics that is meant as a compliment as much as I hate her game)
8. Mauresmo- major underachiever.
9. Capriati- another bigtime overachiever. again that is a compliment.
10. Kuznetsova

The above players have all won multiple majors, the pinacle of the sport. Only the first two have won multiple Wimbledon, the ultimate of the sport.

Why Hingis at number 4? Don't get me wrong I'm loving that she's that high on your list I just wanna know why :)

MotherMarjorie
05-24-2010, 09:31 PM
Also, it's worth mentioning that Henin has a better career match win ratio (.820 compared to .804 for Venus)
Stop, you are making way too much sense. It doesn't fit their agenda, so they ignore it.

MotherMarjorie
05-24-2010, 09:32 PM
Either you can't read or simply blind.


Here’s the fact:

Weeks at #1
Henin 117
Venus 11

9 other players in Venus’s era– Ivanovic, Mauresmo, Safina, Jankovic, Capriati, Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingis are all ahead of Venus!

Year end #1
Henin 3
Venus 0!!!

Added to the fact Venus played a hell of a lot more tennis than Henin but still came up short.

You want to be blind, fine with me...it's your life!
They choose to be blind.

MotherMarjorie
05-24-2010, 09:35 PM
Have you seen Venus' outfit? She's all over the internet with photos of her bum! Everyone's trying to figure out if she's gone commando or what. Quite sheer and risque.
Immodest at best. The line must not be doing well, so she shows her @ss. Its been done many times before by much better designers. Anything to get attention. Pretty sad. What's next, a sex tape with her wearing her clothing line?

jamesblakefan#1
05-24-2010, 10:02 PM
I don't think the French and Wimbledon are that big a difference in prestige. Certainly here in the US they are, but globally it's a different story. Wimbledon is more prestigious, but there's plenty of places where RG is right behind it in prestige.

Mr_Shiver
05-24-2010, 10:02 PM
Seeing as Venus is older, shouldn't you use her stats from when she was Henins age? Or perhaps stats from the corresponding years after the went pro, seeing as they turned pro at different ages. Or maybe we should settle this by which one has the least annoying shriek.

jamesblakefan#1
05-24-2010, 10:06 PM
Seeing as Venus is older, shouldn't you use her stats from when she was Henins age? Or perhaps stats from the corresponding years after the went pro, seeing as they turned pro at different ages. Or maybe we should settle this by which one has the least annoying shriek.

Venus's shrieks are less annoying than Henin's ALLEZ's, for what it's worth.

jerriy
05-24-2010, 11:56 PM
Consider that the thread starter, Davey25, has this incomplete sentence in her signature, "Henin GOAT of cheaters," it pretty much ruined her credibility from post one. Its obvious this thread was meant to bash Henin by Davey25, with Thundervolley following closely behind like pedophiles stalking a daycare.Feeble attempt to deflect attention from the fact that despite her best efforts Venus "can-can" Williams is still the second worst dressed player of the current era.

Although Vee is obviously doing her best to be number one in that department, she isn't yet (judging by all previous outfits Serena is still the worst dressed player)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3348/4637851321_4549ba7692_o.jpg

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 12:31 AM
Why Hingis at number 4? Don't get me wrong I'm loving that she's that high on your list I just wanna know why :)

Well, who would you place at number four?

halalula1234
05-25-2010, 06:11 AM
Venus's shrieks are less annoying than Henin's ALLEZ's, for what it's worth.

DEFINITELY!!! and dont mention rezai's scream/allez even worst.

And i love Vennus' Bare bum fashion range they are fantistique!! im excited for the next costume shes gonna pull out

TMF
05-25-2010, 06:26 AM
They choose to be blind.

Well, that's just too bad. You give them cold facts and poster like thundervolley actually trying to arguing against it. Very strange behavior.

TMF
05-25-2010, 06:37 AM
That is definitely something in Henin's favor over Venus. It just isnt enough to compensate, atleast for me, Venus winning 5 times at the Worlds most prestigious tournament to Henin's 0 when both have 7 overall slams. Or to look at it another way Venus winning 7 times at the Worlds 2 most prestigious tournaments to Henin's 2 when both have 7 overall slams. Henin is probably a bit more all surface, since like you said she has done better at Wimbledon than Venus at the French, but still not enough to compensate the huge disparity at the most imporant events in tennis.



Although SW19 is the most prestige slam but it still weigh the same as any other slam. AO is harder to win than RG, but no one would say winning AO is worth more than RG. Bottom line is they are tier 1 tourney and both Henin and Venus won 7. In a tie-breaker, clearly Henin is ahead of Venus. At 28, Venus is a very weak top player basing on so many years on the tour. She never dominate the field like Henin did in 2007. And was never good enough to end the year #1. Henin achieved way more with less years on the toure and is younger. Time is on her side. For Venus, one would have to evaluate if she's the 3rd best player in her era.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 07:07 AM
Well, that's just too bad. You give them cold facts and poster like thundervolley actually trying to arguing against it. Very strange behavior.

Blind is the one with such a lack of basic tennis history, that she believes not winning Wimbledon--the biggest, most important slam of all--somehow makes a player "greater" than one who has won multiple Wimbledon titles in her generation.

Pure historical ignorance...but this is to be expected.

TMF
05-25-2010, 07:18 AM
Blind is the one with such a lack of basic tennis history, that she believes not winning Wimbledon--the biggest, most important slam of all--somehow makes a player "greater" than one who has won multiple Wimbledon titles in her generation.

Pure historical ignorance...but this is to be expected.

Pure stupidity at a new height. SW19 maybe more prestige by most fan, but it doesn't weigh anymore than other slam. All GS are play in two weeks in a 5 set formats, and earn equal atp points.

Henin and Venus both have 7 GS, but Henin wins in a tie breaker:

Here’s the fact:

Weeks at #1
Henin 117
Venus 11

9 other players in Venus’s era– Ivanovic, Mauresmo, Safina, Jankovic, Capriati, Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingis are all ahead of Venus!

Year end #1
Henin 3
Venus 0!!!

Added to the fact Venus played a hell of a lot more tennis than Henin but still came up short.

You want to be blind, fine with me...it's your life!

dcdoorknob
05-25-2010, 07:26 AM
I for one am SHOCKED that Thundervolley has taken an anti-Henin stance in this thread.

SHOCKED I say.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 07:35 AM
I for one am SHOCKED that Thundervolley has taken an anti-Henin stance in this thread.

SHOCKED I say.

I, for one am SHOCKED that dcdoorknob has entered a thread for the lone purpose of flaming and trolling.

SHOCKED I say.

TMF
05-25-2010, 07:38 AM
I for one am SHOCKED that Thundervolley has taken an anti-Henin stance in this thread.

SHOCKED I say.

SHOCKED is an unerstatement. It's pretty low to try to undermine Henin's 7 GS just b/c she hasn't won SW19. He wants to make his own rule. LOL

He forgot that prime Henin blowed Serena off the court in 2007 at FO, SW19, and USO! Destroyed Venus at the USO. 2007 Henin the WS wouldn't have much of a chance.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 07:47 AM
Pure stupidity at a new height. SW19 maybe more prestige by most fan, but it doesn't weigh anymore than other slam. All GS are play in two weeks in a 5 set formats, and earn equal atp points.

Henin and Venus both have 7 GS, but Henin wins in a tie breaker:

Here’s the fact:

Weeks at #1
Henin 117
Venus 11

9 other players in Venus’s era– Ivanovic, Mauresmo, Safina, Jankovic, Capriati, Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingis are all ahead of Venus!

Year end #1
Henin 3
Venus 0!!!

Added to the fact Venus played a hell of a lot more tennis than Henin but still came up short.

You want to be blind, fine with me...it's your life!

You seem to think copy-pasting your out-of-the-gates nonsense over and over again will make your prattle become fact.

Sorry, little TMF, but your god's failure to win even ONE Wimbledon places her below Venus. I know, girl...I know...your tears are flowing, as your lip curls in a mix of sorrow and hatred, but you will just have to deal with the accepted judgement of Wimbledon being the most important slam....not the FO, and until your god wins one, her generational placement will remain at #3.

Now, return with more flames (as seen in your post above), since it is being watched, and we do not wish to slow down your forthcoming trip to ban-land.

Chadwixx
05-25-2010, 08:15 AM
I for one am SHOCKED that Thundervolley has taken an anti-Henin stance in this thread.

SHOCKED I say.

Never saw this one coming either

dcdoorknob
05-25-2010, 08:41 AM
I, for one am SHOCKED that dcdoorknob has entered a thread for the lone purpose of flaming and trolling.

SHOCKED I say.

I'll stop if you stop ruining every thread on TT that has anything remotely to do with Henin with your wordy, agenda driven, biased hate.

Deal?

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 08:52 AM
I'll stop if you stop ruining every thread on TT that has anything remotely to do with Henin with your wordy, agenda driven, biased hate.

Deal?

Thanks for admitting you are a troll; it will make an easy case.

Further, in case you have not noticed, this forum...this thread is not titled "Let's all kiss Henin's ***." The OP has issued a critical observation, so your confusion as to the reason this thread did not turn into the Henin Pep Squad Rally should be over. But here's a real deal: if you can avoid selective memory and call out TMF on her incessant, proven/called out trollng/hate-fest in every thread where a Williams sister is mentioned, then I will post something positive about Henin.

Ohh, I know that's too much to ask (since you cannot possiblly control or lessen TMF's agenda of hate of the Williams sisters), but the attempt was fun!

TMF
05-25-2010, 09:00 AM
Never saw this one coming either

SHOCKING, isn't it?

TMF
05-25-2010, 09:02 AM
Thanks for admitting you are a troll; it will make an easy case.

Further, in case you have not noticed, this forum...this thread is not titled "Let's all kiss Henin's ***." The OP has issued a critical observation, so your confusion as to the reason this thread did not turn into the Henin Pep Squad Rally should be over. But here's a real deal: if you can avoid selective memory and call out TMF on her incessant, proven/called out trollng/hate-fest in every thread where a Williams sister is mentioned, then I will post something positive about Henin.

Ohh, I know that's too much to ask (since you cannot possiblly control or lessen TMF's agenda of hate of the Williams sisters), but the attempt was fun!

No one is asking you to trash Henin for her 7 GS titles. No one is undermining Venus by the way, we are comparing their career achievements. All the facts add up and turns out Henin > Venus overall. But all you do is went berserk when someone put Henin on top. You are a very strange person.

TMF
05-25-2010, 09:08 AM
I'll stop if you stop ruining every thread on TT that has anything remotely to do with Henin with your wordy, agenda driven, biased hate.

Deal?

You are asking for the impossible deal. It’s pointless in trying to reason with a worshipper who will troll, ruining thread for everyone just to make him sleep well at night.

jerriy
05-25-2010, 09:09 AM
the accepted judgement of Wimbledon being the most important slam....not the FO******** - you're indulging in thunderfolly - you're making stuff up as you go along.

Otherwise you wouldn't be a two-faced hypocrite. Cuz by the same token it is also an "accepted judgement" that Henin is second only to Serena as the best of her generation.

Accepted judgement n°1: Wimby > French
Accepted judgement n°2: Juju > Venus

Case closed

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 09:13 AM
******** - you're indulging in thunderfolly - you're making stuff up as you go along.

Otherwise you wouldn't be a two-faced hypocrite. Cuz by the same token it is also an "accepted judgement" that Henin is second only to Serena as the best of her generation.

Accepted judgement n°1: Wimby > French
Accepted judgement n°2: Juju > Venus

Case closed

Ah, another alias of the main troll. Not working, and your account is going bye-bye soon enough.

Funny how sh*t works that way.

PSST! Yes, according to the accepted judgement of the history you are obviously ignorant of, Wimbledon is indeed the most important slam. The FO is not and never will be--by any measure--on Wimbledon's level.

Awwww......

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 09:19 AM
No one is undermining Venus


Do you really want a series of your quotes where you are undermining Venus' accomplishments and status in this thread alone? Short-term memory is not your playpal. However, no one can forget how you destroy nearly every thread where a Williams sister is mentioned with your bloodlust.

All the facts add up and turns out Henin > Venus overall. But all you do is went berserk when someone put Henin on top. You are a very strange person.

More flaming....gee, we did not see that coming...but keep it up, dear troll. Time is running out for your account (yes, I find it quite amusing).

Oh, history still trumps your inane idea of Henin's status. No Wimbledon, no second place. It is that easy to understand...well, for some of us....

dcdoorknob
05-25-2010, 09:19 AM
Thanks for admitting you are a troll; it will make an easy case.

Further, in case you have not noticed, this forum...this thread is not titled "Let's all kiss Henin's ***." The OP has issued a critical observation, so your confusion as to the reason this thread did not turn into the Henin Pep Squad Rally should be over. But here's a real deal: if you can avoid selective memory and call out TMF on her incessant, proven/called out trollng/hate-fest in every thread where a Williams sister is mentioned, then I will post something positive about Henin.

Ohh, I know that's too much to ask (since you cannot possiblly control or lessen TMF's agenda of hate of the Williams sisters), but the attempt was fun!

I'll freely admit that there are those that irrationally hate the Williams sisters every bit as much as you irrationally hate Henin. TMF might or might not be one of those, I just haven't had any real run-ins with him/her thus far. I guess you just leave a more lasting impression. Maybe you can take that as a compliment. :D

jerriy
05-25-2010, 09:22 AM
I aint anyone's alias.

the accepted judgement of the history you are obviously ignorant of,You're the one who's cherry picking history and ignoring one thing that is already in the history books:

Accepted judgement n°2: Juju > Venus

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 09:30 AM
I'll freely admit that there are those that irrationally hate the Williams sisters every bit as much as you irrationally hate Henin. TMF might or might not be one of those, I just haven't had any real run-ins with him/her thus far.

I cannot hate one I do not know--the essential difference between me--and those who display wholly dangerous levels of obssession with the sisters.

Moreover, one does not need a "run-in" with her to know her habits, which other members have called out repeatedly. Ex. I know the posting habits of many a die-hard Nadal fan, yet I did not need to have a run-in with them to know that.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 09:34 AM
I aint anyone's alias.

You're the one who's cherry picking history and ignoring one thing that is already in the history books:

Accepted judgement n°2: Juju > Venus

Oh? Okay, time to dance: provide this wealth of references from "history books" claiming the following:

A. The FO is on the same (or holds a superior) slam value/historic standing as Wimbledon.

B. Henin's career is superior to V. Williams.


You opened the door on yourself, dear alias, and now we are waiting for this torrential flood of irrefutable evidence (which you will need), as one (the player's standing) is irrevocably tied to the particular slams they won......

TMF
05-25-2010, 09:35 AM
******** - you're indulging in thunderfolly - you're making stuff up as you go along.

Otherwise you wouldn't be a two-faced hypocrite. Cuz by the same token it is also an "accepted judgement" that Henin is second only to Serena as the best of her generation.

Accepted judgement n°1: Wimby > French
Accepted judgement n°2: Juju > Venus

Case closed

You have to understand that thundervolley will go to any length to disparage other players to boost the William sisters. All slam are equal in greatness. More prestige slam doesn’t equate more weigh. In facts, certain fans have their own favorite slam, and a lot has to do with their geographic location. It’s foolish to put one slam over the other. No one is putting an asterisk on Borg or Guga for winning so many RG. Although a player’s career is more complete if she can win slams on all four different surfaces. Venus was able to win on only 2 surfaces but Henin did it in 3 surfaces, and almost won the fourth one in 01 and 06. Justine obviously have a better resume b/c it’s more balance. It’s pretty similar to Fed vs Sampras, Fed has more of a complete resume b/c he was good on every surfaces and most fans gave Roger more credits. It’s pretty safe to say Venus is the 3rd best player at best.

I feel like a teacher lecturing to a 10 years old kid(thundervolley).

Lionheart392
05-25-2010, 09:39 AM
I do believe that Henin ranks higher than Venus. As mentioned, she has FAR more weeks at #1, 3 year end #1s to Venus' 0, and has won 3 of the 4 slams. On their most successful surfaces, clay for Henin and grass for Venus, they have had similar success but on their worst surfaces (just switch them), I beleve Henin is the superior player. She was runner-up at Wimbledon twice and a semifinalist on 3 other occasions. Venus made 1 French final which was also the only year she made it past the QF. So overall I believe Henin is the superior player and does indeed rank higher than Venus. Venus has still had a great career though of course.

TMF
05-25-2010, 09:50 AM
I do believe that Henin ranks higher than Venus. As mentioned, she has FAR more weeks at #1, 3 year end #1s to Venus' 0, and has won 3 of the 4 slams. On their most successful surfaces, clay for Henin and grass for Venus, they have had similar success but on their worst surfaces (just switch them), I beleve Henin is the superior player. She was runner-up at Wimbledon twice and a semifinalist on 3 other occasions. Venus made 1 French final which was also the only year she made it past the QF. So overall I believe Henin is the superior player and does indeed rank higher than Venus. Venus has still had a great career though of course.

I wish we have more objective poster like you. For winning 7 GS, they are both great players. When we go into a tie-breaker, Henin outshined Venus, that’s why I gave her the edge. Even Serena who is considered the best player in this era, some of Henin’s numbers also outshined Serena.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 10:22 AM
I do believe that Henin ranks higher than Venus. As mentioned, she has FAR more weeks at #1, 3 year end #1s to Venus' 0, and has won 3 of the 4 slams. On their most successful surfaces, clay for Henin and grass for Venus, they have had similar success but on their worst surfaces (just switch them), I beleve Henin is the superior player. She was runner-up at Wimbledon twice and a semifinalist on 3 other occasions. Venus made 1 French final which was also the only year she made it past the QF. So overall I believe Henin is the superior player and does indeed rank higher than Venus. Venus has still had a great career though of course.

Lion, history does not rank the great with heavy reliance on runner-up status, but it is judged on slam wins--the particular slams a player won. Switch Sampras' Wimbledon titles with any other slam-inluding the celebrated USO, and despite the overall count, his status would not be in such a historically lofty position. This is one of the reasons Lendl is (fairly or unfairly) not instantly part of the conversation when "greatest of an era" is the subject. If Lendl could have won his 2 Wimbledon finals appearances instead of being that sad runner up--possibly added another, he would most certainly be held in higher regard than the present level.

The one and only reason for this is the oft-noted status and history (for generations) attained by Wimbledon, which the FO has not shared in the past, nor is it likely to in the future. Justine's utter failure to win this title automatically removes her from the 2nd place of her own generation. IF anyone ever needed more evidence of just how important the title is--just watch Justine herself--who annouced she changed her game (a dangerous tactic for any player) for the specific purpose of winning that elusive, most coveted title; she knows what Wimbledon means to tennis history and the future, and her ultimate consideration in the annals of sports history overall.

Chadwixx
05-25-2010, 10:43 AM
Venus needs to win an AO or French to even make this a debate.

MotherMarjorie
05-25-2010, 11:24 AM
Venus needs to win an AO or French to even make this a debate.
...sayin'....

boredone3456
05-25-2010, 11:35 AM
Here are the facts:

Wimbledon titles at this moment- Venus 5, Henin 0
Head to head- Venus 7 wins, Henin 2 wins

Of course as the adoration with Monica Seles shows people on TW seem to think failure to win Wimbledon is in fact a booster to tennis greatness.

This is a very one dimensional Look at the "Facts"

Australian Titles at this moment- Venus 0 (1 final), Henin 1(1 additional final) Advantage Henin

French Open Titles at this moment- Venus 0 (1 Final), Henin 4 big advantage Henin

Wimbledon Titles at this moment- Venus 5 (2 additional finals), Henin 0 (2 Finals) Big advantage Venus

US Open Titles at this moment- Venus 2 (1 Additional final), Henin 2 (1 Additional Final), slight edge to Venus though because her Record is better there

YEC Titles- Venus 1 (1 other Final), Henin 2 (back to back years). Advantage Henin, she was able to win hers in her most dominant years on tour

Weeks # 1- Venus 11, Henin 117 Now here Venus's numbers are skimpy considering how good she was in 2000 & 2001, but even if I tried to compensate for that by even multipling Venus's numbers by 5 or 6, which would be a stretch but not completely out there, Henin still has a clear advantage

Year End Number 1's- Venus 0 (however I feel she should have been yr end # 1 in both 2000 and 2001) Henin 3 Slight advantage for Henin here because Venus should by all right have at least 1 if not 2

Tier 1 Titles- Venus 6 Henin 10 (many of Henin's are on clay yes, but many of Venus's are in Miami, so they balance out in terms of weighted advantage)...Edge here to Henin though overall though because she has made more tier 1 finals.

Head to Head Venus leads 7-2...I have explained this already but it is an Advantage for Venus.

Career Win % Venus .804 Henin .820 Advantage Henin

Career Wins Venus 579 Henin 509 Advantage Venus

Career Loses Venus 139 Henin 109 Advantage Henin

Overall Career Titles Venus 43 Henin 42 Very Slight edge to Venus

So in terms of these categorys... Henin leads 8-4.5 Even factoring in the Prestige of Wimbledon that is not enough to make up the difference...even if you count Wimbledon for 3 Henin still has a slight edge

They are close, and are clearly with Serena the top 3 of this decade....but i will Stand by Henin as number 2...and if she continues to rack things up her advantage will only become bigger

MotherMarjorie
05-25-2010, 11:57 AM
Agreed about Henin being ahead of Venus all time. Also I think the benefit of the doubt about Henin's lack of Wimbledon titles went out the window when she admitted she lost to Bartoli in 07 b/c she was scared of facing Venus in the final.

http://www.gototennisblog.com/2009/12/09/justine-henin-scared-of-the-williams-sisters-inspired-by-federer/
Justine didn't look scared when she defeated Venus in straight sets at the '07 US Open. Look what Justine did to the mindless ball basher the last time they played one another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YOZjnpsNWk

Note to Davey25, you can get away will the mindless ball bashing at Wimbledon (also see Pete Sampras), but you have to think a little bit outside of the grass confines of Europa in order to win in Australia and France.

Oh, yes. Mother Marjorie has an extra compact in her handbag, to give to the creator of this thread.

Mirror....Mirror....Mother Marjorie style.

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20100525/capt.d1a7f685ad284a1fa4e3f7b0e5237570-d1a7f685ad284a1fa4e3f7b0e5237570-0.jpg?x=213&y=308&xc=1&yc=1&wc=283&hc=409&q=85&sig=JtNXSi47Z0JlY0DzCT624g--

joeri888
05-25-2010, 11:59 AM
Venus won her Slams in a different generation.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 12:22 PM
Venus needs to win an AO or French to even make this a debate.

No, she does not, since she's won the greatest of all slams (repeatedly), and managed two of the damn-near inarguably 2nd greatest slam.

Chadwixx, Henin's restructuring of her proven game--by any estimation a serious, risky plan--to win the greatest slam shows just how important that title is to her and history. As in the Lendl example, some of the more ardent Graf fans love to tear down Seles' record because of her failure to win the slam of all; to this group of fans, it is as though Seles' 9 slams are not as impressive or historically relevant--all due to that most vaunted of slams never added to her record. Lendl, Seles ad now Henin lose in the grand scheme of tennis legacies, no matter how impressive their existing accomplishments may appear.

Chadwixx
05-25-2010, 01:08 PM
Wimbledon is great, but its just one piece to the puzzle.

Wimbledon isnt what is used to be, now its just another tournament played on a dead surface, which actually devalues it. In the past it was king, but now (as much as i hate to say it) the us open is because most of the big tournaments are played on hardcourts. Whereas grass only has one big tournament

MotherMarjorie
05-25-2010, 02:11 PM
No, she does not, since she's won the greatest of all slams (repeatedly), and managed two of the damn-near inarguably 2nd greatest slam.

Chadwixx, Henin's restructuring of her proven game--by any estimation a serious, risky plan--to win the greatest slam shows just how important that title is to her and history. As in the Lendl example, some of the more ardent Graf fans love to tear down Seles' record because of her failure to win the slam of all; to this group of fans, it is as though Seles' 9 slams are not as impressive or historically relevant--all due to that most vaunted of slams never added to her record. Lendl, Seles ad now Henin lose in the grand scheme of tennis legacies, no matter how impressive their existing accomplishments may appear.
You just don't get_IT_and will never get it. I am now convinced you are merely ignorant.

Its not that Seles and Lendl didn't win "Wimbledon," its that they didn't win a career slam, by winning every major at least once. See Pete Sampras at the FO.

Henin's goal has always been known...to win Wimbledon because it would complete a career slam. Something Venus will never have an opportunity to accomplish. Winning Wimbledon by itself is irrevelent historically if you can't win all of the other majors.

Welcome to Tennis History 101.

Henin will have an opportunity Wimbledon 2010 to complete her career singles slam. Venus will never have the same opportunity, which puts her at #3 for this generation.

egn
05-25-2010, 02:21 PM
You just don't get_IT_and will never get it. I am now convinced you are merely ignorant.

Its not that Seles and Lendl didn't win "Wimbledon," its that they didn't win a career slam, by winning every major at least once. See Pete Sampras at the FO.

Henin's goal has always been known...to win Wimbledon because it would complete a career slam. Something Venus will never have an opportunity to accomplish. Winning Wimbledon by itself is irrevelent historically if you can't win all of the other majors.

Welcome to Tennis History 101.

Henin will have an opportunity Wimbledon 2010 to complete her career singles slam. Venus will never have the same opportunity, which puts her at #3 for this generation.

Well if a major fluke happens and Venus wins French Open 2010...2011 brings the chance..

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 04:30 PM
You just don't get_IT_and will never get it. I am now convinced you are merely ignorant.

Its not that Seles and Lendl didn't win "Wimbledon," its that they didn't win a career slam, by winning every major at least once. See Pete Sampras at the FO.

Ignorance, thy name is Mother Marjorie, since you actually mention Sampras, yet cannot wrap your little mind around the fact that long before his final slam, he was already considered one of the greats thanks to the volume of Wimbledon titles he won. You can delude yourself (as you commonly do), but the slams have a pecking order of history and importance, you (and that troll) fail to comprehend to any degree--which you would have IF you had more than a flirtation with the sport.

Henin's goal has always been known...to win Wimbledon because it would complete a career slam. Something Venus will never have an opportunity to accomplish. Winning Wimbledon by itself is irrevelent historically if you can't win all of the other majors.

This is the most woefully pointless comment yet. to reiterate, if Sampras only won his W titles and not much else, he would still be a legend without question, yet Lendl and Seles--routinely questioned dspite their results--will forever fall into the "but they did not..." assessment thanks to failing to win the greatest slam.

This is not the Riddle of the Ages, thus it is quite easy to understand.

However, lie to yourself if that gives you comfort, but history does not, nor does it hold those aforenoted players in the same regard as Sampras, Graf, and others who excelled at Wimbledon.


Henin will have an opportunity Wimbledon 2010 to complete her career singles slam.

Ah yes, we will see, but remember, this is the same Justine who in her prime could not win the title, but now--years older--has to alter her game because Justine believes she did not have the tools based on previous results.

Mmhmm.

You are divorced from reality.

TMF
05-25-2010, 05:29 PM
Ignorance, thy name is Mother Marjorie, since you actually mention Sampras, yet cannot wrap your little mind around the fact that long before his final slam, he was already considered one of the greats thanks to the volume of Wimbledon titles he won. You can delude yourself (as you commonly do), but the slams have a pecking order of history and importance, you (and that troll) fail to comprehend to any degree--which you would have IF you had more than a flirtation with the sport.
Sampras was great, but his career would be more complete had he won RG. Lendl, Mac, or Connors are all great too, and it would be even better had they won the career slam. Agassi gets bonus points for completing the career slam. Any of these player would trade the gs they have won multiple times for the one they have long for. Federer was put ahead of Pete when he won his 14th, and the BIGGEST reason was it was a career slam(FO).

Do the knowledge!



This is the most woefully pointless comment yet. to reiterate, if Sampras only won his W titles and not much else, he would still be a legend without question, yet Lendl and Seles--routinely questioned dspite their results--will forever fall into the "but they did not..." assessment thanks to failing to win the greatest slam.

This is not the Riddle of the Ages, thus it is quite easy to understand.

However, lie to yourself if that gives you comfort, but history does not, nor does it hold those aforenoted players in the same regard as Sampras, Graf, and others who excelled at Wimbledon.
Sampras would still be a legend with a 14 GS WITHOUT SW19. Any player who won that much slams is a legend. Get it? He’s more of a legend than Lend/Seles simply b/c he won 14 GS, but Lendl only won 8. But still, many fans(unlike you) consider Lendl’s as one of the great. Seles is no comparison to Martina/Graf since she’s way behind in slam count. Your analogy is rather WEAK by comparing Sampras to Lendl/Seles.




Ah yes, we will see, but remember, this is the same Justine who in her prime could not win the title, but now--years older--has to alter her game because Justine believes she did not have the tools based on previous results.

Mmhmm.
Justine has a great chance to complete her career slam. Federer did it by winning on his worst surface. Don’t rule out Henin. Oh, I forgot, “NEVER” exist in your world but there’s no such thing as “POSSIBILITY”. You are a very strange person.



You are divorced from reality.
And you were never in touch with reality to begin with.:cry:

TMF
05-25-2010, 05:38 PM
Well if a major fluke happens and Venus wins French Open 2010...2011 brings the chance..

While I agree that every great players are fortunate at time or another in their career for winning a slam with a soft draw, but I wouldn’t say it’s a fluke. Because if you do that, then we can go down the list of all the great players and point out some of the fluke slam they have won. At this point, Henin has a good chance to complete the career slam. But Venus’s chances are slim and none. Just to reach the final in both slam is already a tall order. The odds for Henin/Venus to complete the career slam are like 10:1 in favor of Henin.

Tanya
05-25-2010, 05:45 PM
Would someone please explain to me how variety constitutes greatness? If that were true then that style of play would not have died out when it got blown away by the modern power game. Just because it may be more attractive to watch does not mean it is "better". Greatness is better judged on effectiveness as opposed to attractiveness, no?

Also weeks at #1 do little to illustrate who is the greater player. If this were true then Ivanovic and Safina would be considered great than Venus; anyone who actually believes such a thing needs to seriously be killed because that type of stupidity is extremely intolerable.

Tanya
05-25-2010, 06:02 PM
Justine didn't look scared when she defeated Venus in straight sets at the '07 US Open. Look what Justine did to the mindless ball basher the last time they played one another:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YOZjnpsNWk

You consider a 7-6, 6-4 victory a beating, especially considering she failed to serve out the match once? Not to mention 07 was Henin's most dominant year to date. Was it a straight sets victory? Yup, but hardly. The scoreline of a straight sets victory doesn't get much tighter than 7-6, 6-4.

And to call Venus a mindless ball basher only further illustrates your misunderstanding of the sport.

By the way MotherMarjorie you sound like a complete ****ing idiot. As if your skewed views of the world didn't damage your credibility enough the fact that you refer to yourself in the 3rd person makes it hard to take anything to have to say seriously whatsoever. Please mature.

davey25
05-25-2010, 06:19 PM
I will get to some of the other responses later but it is funny to see some of the haters in this thread referring to Venus as a brainless basher. The irony to this it is Henin since her return to tennis has suddenly begun playing like a brainless basher all of a sudden. In the Australian Open final this year vs Serena she lost in part since she flat out played stupid tennis, particularly in the 3rd set. Yet it is the Williams who are the brainless bashers, LOL!

vbranis
05-25-2010, 08:30 PM
I will get to some of the other responses later but it is funny to see some of the haters in this thread referring to Venus as a brainless basher. The irony to this it is Henin since her return to tennis has suddenly begun playing like a brainless basher all of a sudden. In the Australian Open final this year vs Serena she lost in part since she flat out played stupid tennis, particularly in the 3rd set. Yet it is the Williams who are the brainless bashers, LOL!

While 'brainless basher' might be a bit harsh, it is close to the truth. Venus has 3 game plans: hit hard, harder, and hardest. If her FH is off or someone is more consistent, she doesn't have a backup. And have you ever seen Venus hit a slice or drop shot? Her biggest asset by far is her power and athleticism. That is what wins her matches, not smarts. I see Henin hit angles, topspin, slices, drop volleys, and other creative shots several times in each of her matches. At only 5'5", she simply has to; if she didn't play smart, you can bet she wouldn't have 7 Slams. If you think Venus has more variety and tennis IQ than Henin, then you are simply refusing to see the truth due to your personal bias against Henin.

Speranza
05-25-2010, 08:39 PM
While 'brainless basher' might be a bit harsh, it is close to the truth. Venus has 3 game plans: hit hard, harder, and hardest. If her FH is off or someone is more consistent, she doesn't have a backup. And have you ever seen Venus hit a slice or drop shot? Her biggest asset by far is her power and athleticism. That is what wins her matches, not smarts. I see Henin hit angles, topspin, slices, drop volleys, and other creative shots several times in each of her matches. At only 5'5", she simply has to; if she didn't play smart, you can bet she wouldn't have 7 Slams. If you think Venus has more variety and tennis IQ than Henin, then you are simply refusing to see the truth due to your personal bias against Henin.

Holmes: Some very good points made in this post.

jamesblakefan#1
05-25-2010, 08:40 PM
This whole 'Henin can't hit hard because she's short' myth has got to die at some point. Rezai's the same height as her and hits the ball as hard as anyone on the tour.

vbranis
05-25-2010, 08:52 PM
This whole 'Henin can't hit hard because she's short' myth has got to die at some point. Rezai's the same height as her and hits the ball as hard as anyone on the tour.

True, Rezai hits very hard, especially for her height. I am very impressed with her game. However, it is a fact that it is considerably more difficult for a short person to hit hard. A taller person generates more leverage (faster, longer swing) with essentially the same wind up and effort as a shorter person. Plus, a shorter person generally weighs less, and more weight = more power

jamesblakefan#1
05-25-2010, 08:55 PM
True, Rezai hits very hard, especially for her height. I am very impressed with her game. However, it is a fact that it is considerably more difficult for a short person to hit hard. A taller person generates more leverage (faster, longer swing) with essentially the same wind up and effort as a shorter person.

Just making the point that it's not like Henin's not a power player either. Other than the serve, I'd say Henin can go toe to toe w/ both of the WS power wise.

halalula1234
05-25-2010, 09:01 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYHBhmit4fA

davey25
05-25-2010, 09:22 PM
Power is mostly about technique anyway. Hantuchova isnt short but she is a skinny minny but especialy in her prime had beautiful effortless power of the ground. Schultz McCarthy was a mammoth women but couldnt break an egg on any of her shots other than her massive serve. Hingis is the same height as Henin and not nearly as powerful since her racquet head speed and torque is lacking, and her technique on her serve and forehand both is flawed.

Nick Bolletieri said in one of his books that Seles was the most unathletic and physically weakest person he had ever worked with when she was young but she was already hitting the ball harder than anyone other than Graf at 15 and 16 years old. She was only about 5"6 or 5"7 around then too.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 11:23 PM
While 'brainless basher' might be a bit harsh, it is close to the truth. Venus has 3 game plans: hit hard, harder, and hardest. If her FH is off or someone is more consistent, she doesn't have a backup. And have you ever seen Venus hit a slice or drop shot? Her biggest asset by far is her power and athleticism. That is what wins her matches, not smarts. I see Henin hit angles, topspin, slices, drop volleys, and other creative shots several times in each of her matches. At only 5'5", she simply has to; if she didn't play smart, you can bet she wouldn't have 7 Slams. If you think Venus has more variety and tennis IQ than Henin, then you are simply refusing to see the truth due to your personal bias against Henin.

So, to be clear, are you saying all Venus does is stand at the baseline like the majority of women (and men) and blast with no movement, or variety?

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-25-2010, 11:45 PM
Sampras was great, but his career would be more complete had he won RG. Lendl, Mac, or Connors are all great too, and it would be even better had they won the career slam. Agassi gets bonus points for completing the career slam. Any of these player would trade the gs they have won multiple times for the one they have long for. Federer was put ahead of Pete when he won his 14th, and the BIGGEST reason was it was a career slam(FO).


Amusing how no one backs up this asinine claim about Sampras needing the FO to have a "compete career." The reason: the FO is not as valued, so his not winning it means little now, and meant nothing as he was beig praised as the greatest.

Next time, please read...or just glance at some of this sports history before positng. It will do you a world of good.



Sampras would still be a legend with a 14 GS WITHOUT SW19. Any player who won that much slams is a legend. Get it?

Sorry kid but you need more lessons: Lendl won more slams than McEnroe, yet McEnroe--who never won a FO or AO--is universally held in higher regard than Lendl as a singles player. Logically, there is only one element of consideration/judgement which separated the two, leading to McEnroe's status: his multiple Wimbledon titles.

Only those with a clear-as-day agenda centered on one player cannot see this pattern of historical consideration/judgement, and how the lack of winning Wimbledon (again,the slam pecking order) has been demonstrated to prevent the noted players from being as celebrated as the referenced Wimbledon champions.

Justine has a great chance to complete her career slam.

Unlike Justine, Federer did not have to change his game in order to do something he could not in his playing prime. Details matter, girl, not ill-conceived comparisons. Justine's very act proves she's never had the game to win Wimbledon up to this point in time, so there's no point in continuing to inhale the fumes of your warped fantasy that Justine has this allegedly great chance, when she failed to win during her prime--the same era where her collective weapons were all but unquestioned.

Again I ask that you think before you post.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 05:44 AM
By the way MotherMarjorie you sound like a complete ****ing idiot. As if your skewed views of the world didn't damage your credibility enough the fact that you refer to yourself in the 3rd person makes it hard to take anything to have to say seriously whatsoever. Please mature.
Dear Tanya Harding,

Mother Majorie is not here for your viewing pleasure. As much as Mother Marjorie hates being clubbed in the knee, sticks and stones may break her bones, but words can never hurt her.

Want to borrow my compact, ho? Because Mother Marjorie has all_this_@ss you can kiss, sweety.

Sincerely,

Mother Marjorie

http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/20080606/425.dunaway.mommie.dearest.060608.jpg

TMF
05-26-2010, 06:17 AM
Amusing how no one backs up this asinine claim about Sampras needing the FO to have a "compete career." The reason: the FO is not as valued, so his not winning it means little now, and meant nothing as he was beig praised as the greatest.

Next time, please read...or just glance at some of this sports history before positng. It will do you a world of good.

Sure! Try to convince Pete that RG means nothing to him. Keep telling yourself with of your BS to make you happy.


Sorry kid but you need more lessons: Lendl won more slams than McEnroe, yet McEnroe--who never won a FO or AO--is universally held in higher regard than Lendl as a singles player. Logically, there is only one element of consideration/judgement which separated the two, leading to McEnroe's status: his multiple Wimbledon titles.

So much garbage I had to crop part of your post.
Lendl and Mac belongs in Tier 2 great. Arguably Lendl is closer to Tier 1 great b/c he not only he won more slams, but had a more impressive career overall. Do the knowledge!



Unlike Justine, Federer did not have to change his game in order to do something he could not in his playing prime. Details matter, girl, not ill-conceived comparisons. Justine's very act proves she's never had the game to win Wimbledon up to this point in time, so there's no point in continuing to inhale the fumes of your warped fantasy that Justine has this allegedly great chance, when she failed to win during her prime--the same era where her collective weapons were all but unquestioned.

Again I ask that you think before you post.

Again, you are a very strange person. if 2009 RG haven't taught you anything, then nothing will.:cry:

halalula1234
05-26-2010, 06:53 AM
venus is talented, she may seems to blast the ball and spray of late.

but she used to play very explosive tennis, dont laugh but reminds me of tsonga in her prime. she would hit super hard returns and drives volleys,

Her drive volleys are divine and whe she leaps into the air who those long legs. I still say she is the best swing volleyer ever, better than serena. and she does hit droppers/drop volleys some slice ( not much) and some spin balls. Of late she seems to hit with a bit more spin which seems to land shot sometimes.

But without great technique its hard to make shots with power and still goes in..

If its all about power then i guess this builder guy who is big and muscly can hit just as hard as a pro but its not true, like me i cannot hit as hard and consistently has henin even tho im around her size because my techniques arnt as good.

but a great physique and athletism does help a lot.

vbranis
05-26-2010, 07:13 AM
So, to be clear, are you saying all Venus does is stand at the baseline like the majority of women (and men) and blast with no movement, or variety?

She comes in, but the majority of her volleys are swinging volleys. Her game revolves around hitting the ball hard and outpowering her opponents. I don't see her hit half volley drop shots, or carving Rafter-style volleys. Her movement is great, I never said it wasn't. And variety? Sorry, I don't see it, especially when compared to Henin.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 07:19 AM
Again, you are a very strange person.
ThunderTwinkle always creeps around any thread that mentions Justine Henin. Its very unhealthy and rather obsessive. He acts like he's so scared that she has, or could possibly take something away from Venus and Serena.

I foresee a possible ThunderTwinkle mental breakdown when Venus and Serena retire. All the crying...the DRAMA.....the DRAMA....and then some more DRAMA.............................just can't stand to live without all the DRAMA.....

Thomas Crown
05-26-2010, 07:25 AM
Henin is a disgusting, smug, cheating a-hole.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-26-2010, 09:19 AM
ThunderTwinkle always creeps around any thread that mentions Justine Henin. Its very unhealthy and rather obsessive. He acts like he's so scared that she has, or could possibly take something away from Venus and Serena.

Amusing, since it has been a point of member discussion about how TMF trolls every Williams thread with her pathological bloodlust, and now you have joined this campaign of hatred as seen here--proved in another of your posts where you reveal your ill desire for Serena to "pop" (your wholly inapplicable description) and somehow find herself banned from the sport.

Textbook hatred from one already showing a psychological break in action with the manner in which you post in the third person (another trait many have discussed on this forum).

Oh! Ooops! Exposed you again? Awwww.

Chadwixx
05-26-2010, 09:20 AM
Henin is a disgusting, smug, cheating a-hole.

Do you feel the same way about serena after she did the same thing vs jankovic a month ago?

Serena stole an ace, henin only stole a serve...

TMF
05-26-2010, 10:08 AM
ThunderTwinkle always creeps around any thread that mentions Justine Henin. Its very unhealthy and rather obsessive. He acts like he's so scared that she has, or could possibly take something away from Venus and Serena.

I foresee a possible ThunderTwinkle mental breakdown when Venus and Serena retire. All the crying...the DRAMA.....the DRAMA....and then some more DRAMA.............................just can't stand to live without all the DRAMA.....

Quote the truth.

Henin is a better player and that’s what is killing him. He creeps around on some other players threads including Ivanovic and Sharapova too trash them, where she can’t stand that these girls are much, much better looking than Serena.

ThunderTwinkle probably holds the record for most posts getting deleted on this board. ThunderTwinkle is the goat of troll on this board..hands down!

TMF
05-26-2010, 10:14 AM
Henin is a disgusting, smug, cheating a-hole.

You want to start listing all the negative incidents between Serena and Henin on/off court? I bet you it doesn’t look good for Serena, atleast it’s something Henin can’t hold a candle to Serena!

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-26-2010, 11:13 AM
Sure! Try to convince Pete that RG means nothing to him. Keep telling yourself with of your BS to make you happy.

To quote another member who--just today--mad this observation about you in another Nadal thread:

Posts like this sum up what a joke of a poster you are, I don't see you critising Federer when he says remarks like this. Seriously pal, you are the lowest of the low

Such refreshing accuracy...and you work hard to prove that observation true with each new post you make.

Let' start with:

Try to convince Pete that RG means nothing to him.

He has always been quite comfortable thinking he's the greatest who ever played the sport--without a FO title. Moreover, long after that arranged 2009 Wimbledon sideshow following Federer's win, he's not routinely crying about a lack of a FO title, nor is he keen on crowning anyone else...all this sans a FO title.

All who truly understand Sampras and the sport would never spew the dreck you do so often.

Next, we will examine:

Lendl and Mac belongs in Tier 2 great. Arguably Lendl is closer to Tier 1 great b/c he not only he won more slams, but had a more impressive career overall.

You are so ignorant of facts, that it would be funny...if it were not so pathetic--all evidenced by your claim of Lendl having a more impressive career, when no seasoned mind agrees with your fantasy, but commonly marks a negative against Lendl for his great failing: never winning Wimbledon.



Do the knowledge!

^ Good Lord....

Moving on, your Henin fantasy is just that--fantasy--because you seem to be so ignorant of human psysiology and sports history in relation to age and/or changing a working tactic/skill, that you insist on mentioning FO '09 as some sort of proof, yet forget the subject of your example did not change his playing style/tactics in order to win--unlike Henin's approach to the forthcoming Wimbledon.

Oh, logic just sent a text and wonders why you will not answer its calls.

Once again, the observation of another member rings true:

Posts like this sum up what a joke of a poster you are.

TMF
05-26-2010, 11:39 AM
To quote another member who--just today--mad this observation about you in another Nadal thread:





But just in this thread alone, members have called you out for being ignorrant or lost in touch with reality. Read and absorb.

I for one am SHOCKED that Thundervolley has taken an anti-Henin stance in this thread.

SHOCKED I say.


I'll stop if you stop ruining every thread on TT that has anything remotely to do with Henin with your wordy, agenda driven, biased hate.

Deal?

******** - you're indulging in thunderfolly - you're making stuff up as you go along.

Otherwise you wouldn't be a two-faced hypocrite. Cuz by the same token it is also an "accepted judgement" that Henin is second only to Serena as the best of her generation.


You're the one who's cherry picking history and ignoring one thing that is already in the history books:

You just don't get_IT_and will never get it. I am now convinced you are merely ignorant.

Justine has a great chance to complete her career slam. Federer did it by winning on his worst surface. Don’t rule out Henin. Oh, I forgot, “NEVER” exist in your world but there’s no such thing as “POSSIBILITY”. You are a very strange person.

ThunderTwinkle always creeps around any thread that mentions Justine Henin. Its very unhealthy and rather obsessive. He acts like he's so scared that she has, or could possibly take something away from Venus and Serena.

I foresee a possible ThunderTwinkle mental breakdown when Venus and Serena retire. All the crying...the DRAMA.....the DRAMA....and then some more DRAMA.............................just can't stand to live without all the DRAMA.....



OMG!:shock::shock:

Tanya
05-26-2010, 12:14 PM
Dear Tanya Harding,

Mother Majorie is not here for your viewing pleasure. As much as Mother Marjorie hates being clubbed in the knee, sticks and stones may break her bones, but words can never hurt her.

Want to borrow my compact, ho? Because Mother Marjorie has all_this_@ss you can kiss, sweety.

Sincerely,

Mother Marjorie

http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/20080606/425.dunaway.mommie.dearest.060608.jpg

How clever. Maybe you should check your fat "@ss" into a mental institution because there's clearly something wrong with you. And if in fact "words can never hurt" Mother Marjorie then she wouldn't feel the need to offer such aggressive replies now would she? Please rethink your existence.

As a side note I don't really know why you people continue to feed the troll that is TMF. Her idiocy has been showcased enough in this thread alone (I can only imagine the vapidity present in the rest of her 2500+ posts) and I don't think it offers anything constructive to keep paying her the attention she so clearly desires.

davey25
05-26-2010, 12:17 PM
Quote the truth.

Henin is a better player and that’s what is killing him. He creeps around on some other players threads including Ivanovic and Sharapova too trash them, where she can’t stand that these girls are much, much better looking than Serena.

ThunderTwinkle probably holds the record for most posts getting deleted on this board. ThunderTwinkle is the goat of troll on this board..hands down!

I am sure Serena would rather have 12 slams and be a tennis legend than be a skinny girl that promoters choose to market as really "hot" to mask their overrated skills and less than legendary careers as tennis players. Anyway Maria is a bony toothpick with a pointy face, and bad acne. However her handlers have managed to convince naive people she is hot is beyond me.

TMF
05-26-2010, 12:35 PM
I am sure Serena would rather have 12 slams and be a tennis legend than be a skinny girl that promoters choose to market as really "hot" to mask their overrated skills and less than legendary careers as tennis players. Anyway Maria is a bony toothpick with a pointy face, and bad acne. However her handlers have managed to convince naive people she is hot is beyond me.

Of course this is only your opinion. If the general consensus that Maria is ugly, then why she gets all the endorsements like canon, gatorate or $70 million contract from Nike? And Ana gets to be on the SI swimsuit magazine, FHM, Maxim. Are these girls are so ugly they are getting all the attention? Didn’t think so.

Tanya
05-26-2010, 12:44 PM
Since when does tennis have anything to do with looks? Sharapova and Ivanovic get endorsements and deals because of what they look like, not because of what they accomplish. Their mild success is only what gets them noticed primarily, however their looks ensure that notice is ongoing. Serena, on the other hand, gets endorsements for what she has accomplished and for her athletic talent. So good for Sharapova and Ana that they are "attractive" enough to be noticed, however that's the only real reason anyone pays attention to them in the first place. Not really something you should be using in your arguments because it has nothing to do with tennis whatever.

TMF
05-26-2010, 12:52 PM
How clever. Maybe you should check your fat "@ss" into a mental institution because there's clearly something wrong with you. And if in fact "words can never hurt" Mother Marjorie then she wouldn't feel the need to offer such aggressive replies now would she? Please rethink your existence.

As a side note I don't really know why you people continue to feed the troll that is TMF. Her idiocy has been showcased enough in this thread alone (I can only imagine the vapidity present in the rest of her 2500+ posts) and I don't think it offers anything constructive to keep paying her the attention she so clearly desires.

Who are you? Using such foul language against me and MotherMarjorie is not making you any better poster.

Marius_Hancu
05-26-2010, 12:58 PM
That seems to be lost on the RG organizers. Henin on Chatrier all the way:-)

Tanya
05-26-2010, 12:59 PM
I never claimed to be any better, you must be confused. The difference is I can at least accept the truth; if you can't then you need to get off the internet.

jones101
05-26-2010, 01:02 PM
Dear Tanya Harding,

Mother Majorie is not here for your viewing pleasure. As much as Mother Marjorie hates being clubbed in the knee, sticks and stones may break her bones, but words can never hurt her.

Want to borrow my compact, ho? Because Mother Marjorie has all_this_@ss you can kiss, sweety.

Sincerely,

Mother Marjorie

http://images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/20080606/425.dunaway.mommie.dearest.060608.jpg

Dear Mother MADjorie,

Please can you stop referring to yourself in the 3rd person its getting a bit old now, it was funny at first but its actually quite pretentious to refer to yourself in the 3rd person and does not enhance your posts, or give your opinions any more vailidity because they are from 'Mother Marjorie' (you do make valid points sometimes though), I find it really stupid.

Rhino
05-26-2010, 01:07 PM
Amusing how no one backs up this asinine claim about Sampras needing the FO to have a "compete career." The reason: the FO is not as valued, so his not winning it means little now, and meant nothing as he was beig praised as the greatest.


Very few people would share this view.

The FO is a grand slam, and like all grand slams it is very highly valued. It represents an entire surface in tennis. Many players who were raised on clay see it as the most important slam.
Sampras' inability to master clay is definitely a stain on his career and shows that he wasn't the complete player that Federer is.

TMF
05-26-2010, 01:12 PM
I never claimed to be any better, you must be confused. The difference is I can at least accept the truth; if you can't then you need to get off the internet.

Some of your posts are OPINION, not facts, so it has nothing to do with TRUTH.

And besides, all of the stats I listed between Henin/Venus are true. If you don't think it's the truth, then try to argue with facts. If you can't dispute it, then you need to get off the internet.

TMF
05-26-2010, 01:23 PM
Since when does tennis have anything to do with looks? Sharapova and Ivanovic get endorsements and deals because of what they look like, not because of what they accomplish. Their mild success is only what gets them noticed primarily, however their looks ensure that notice is ongoing. Serena, on the other hand, gets endorsements for what she has accomplished and for her athletic talent. So good for Sharapova and Ana that they are "attractive" enough to be noticed, however that's the only real reason anyone pays attention to them in the first place. Not really something you should be using in your arguments because it has nothing to do with tennis whatever.

Ok, this is a fair post. But let me pointing out one thing...fans most concern is to be able see high quality tennis, but with a good looking athletes, that’s definitely a plus. Despite being a lesser player than Serena, fans in China would rather watch Maria play.

Tanya
05-26-2010, 01:26 PM
List as many facts as you want, but when you choose to ignore the facts that support what you are arguing against it renders everything you say useless. If you want to construct a proper argument then you need to address all aspects of the topic. Chew on that for a little bit and then get back to me.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-26-2010, 01:26 PM
But just in this thread alone, members have called you out for being ignorrant or lost in touch with reality.

More fantasy, and that you actually refer to someone so psychologically cracked that he posts in the third person makes your already preschool-like opinion less than credible.

Ohh--but you did not get that while posting your incoherent, historically challenged babble, did you?

Tsk, tsk. I think your Failometer just exploded from overload.

...but just to be clear, you are best described in this manner (and no, it never gets old):

Posts like this sum up what a joke of a poster you are.

Seriously pal, you are the lowest of the low.

Drink it up, trollgal.

Tanya
05-26-2010, 01:28 PM
Ok, this is a fair post. But let me pointing out one thing...fans most concern is to be able see high quality tennis, but with a good looking athletes, that’s definitely a plus. Despite being a lesser player than Serena, fans in China would rather watch Maria play.

What does any of this have to do with deciding whether Henin or Venus is the better player? The point is that it's completely irrelevant.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-26-2010, 01:40 PM
The FO is a grand slam, and like all grand slams it is very highly valued.

The point is that it is not as historically valued as Wimbledon, and so far, none of the FO-advocates have demonstrated that it is on the same level, or why Seles and Lendl--despite their accomplishments--are still knocked down a peg in historical consideration/judgement. They have one, major thing in common which happens to be the answer.

Sampras' inability to master clay is definitely a stain on his career.

...which is not corroborated by the innumerable tennis players, fans and writers who happily crowned him the greatest ever to play the game, when all along, he (while playing) was never a serious FO contender, and after retirement never won the title. Again, his legendary Wimbledon wins have as much if not more to do with that than slam counts, since he was bestowed with the "greatest" honor long before he won his final slam.

TMF
05-26-2010, 01:41 PM
List as many facts as you want, but when you choose to ignore the facts that support what you are arguing against it renders everything you say useless. If you want to construct a proper argument then you need to address all aspects of the topic. Chew on that for a little bit and then get back to me.

I did post facts using a tie-breaker between Henin and Venus since they both won 7 GS each.


Here’s the fact:

Weeks at #1
Henin 117
Venus 11

9 other players in Venus’s era– Ivanovic, Mauresmo, Safina, Jankovic, Capriati, Clijsters, Davenport, Sharapova, Hingis are all ahead of Venus!

Year end #1
Henin 3
Venus 0!!!

Added to the fact Venus played a hell of a lot more tennis than Henin but still came up short.


What bugs me is member like thundervolley conveniently chose to be blind and ignore it. And then coming back with irrelevant argument just to disparage Henin.

davey25
05-26-2010, 01:45 PM
We already explained to you that weeks at #1 is not a significant stat in an era Safina and Jankovic have spent significant time at #1. We already explained to you if year end #1s were that important Davenport and Hingis would be greater players than Serena, and Davenport with only 3 slams would be the greatest player of this generation. We have responded to your #1 stats multiple times over, you just choose to ignore it.

5 Wimbledons to 0 and 7 combined Wimbledon/U.S Opens to 2 is a much better tiebreaker when 2 players have 7 slams than #1 stats in this particular era. I dont see how anyone can rationalize otherwise. Also all of Venus's doubles success when Henin doesnt even play doubles.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 02:02 PM
How clever. Maybe you should check your fat "@ss" into a mental institution because there's clearly something wrong with you. And if in fact "words can never hurt" Mother Marjorie then she wouldn't feel the need to offer such aggressive replies now would she? Please rethink your existence.

As a side note I don't really know why you people continue to feed the troll that is TMF. Her idiocy has been showcased enough in this thread alone (I can only imagine the vapidity present in the rest of her 2500+ posts) and I don't think it offers anything constructive to keep paying her the attention she so clearly desires.

Dear Tanya Harding,

Mother Marjorie finds it very, very interesting that you "love Serena" in your signature, yet call me "fat @ss." Here, allow me to open my compact and show you,

Mirror....Mirror, Hector Projector.

You and ThunderWonder would make an interesting family. You, standing outside the trailer, baby on one hip, cigarette hanging out your mouth, skates hanging around your neck, yelling, "..there go my baby daddy." ThunderWonder, driving away in his Pontiac Bonneville, arm hanging out the window yells, "Colt 45, get the baby in the trailer ho."

Mother Marjorie, calling out trailer trash, one ho at a time.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 02:10 PM
We already explained to you that weeks at #1 is not a significant stat in an era Safina and Jankovic have spent significant time at #1. We already explained to you if year end #1s were that important Davenport and Hingis would be greater players than Serena, and Davenport with only 3 slams would be the greatest player of this generation. We have responded to your #1 stats multiple times over, you just choose to ignore it.

5 Wimbledons to 0 and 7 combined Wimbledon/U.S Opens to 2 is a much better tiebreaker when 2 players have 7 slams than #1 stats in this particular era. I dont see how anyone can rationalize otherwise. Also all of Venus's doubles success when Henin doesnt even play doubles.
But what you explained isn't correct.

Every year that Justine Henin ended the year ranked #1, she won a grand slam tournament during that calendar year, something Davenport, Safina and Jankovic could never do. During Justine's weeks at number one, she was defending a grand slam title, something Safina and Jankovic could never do.

Justine more than validated her weeks at number one because she was also winning grand slam singles titles during that time period.

Venus never had the variety, stamina or talent outside of Wimbledon to maintain a #1 ranking. Her game never translated to ranking success because her brand of tennis is one-dimensional and she never had the talent to change her game to fit other surfaces well, especially at the majors. And then there was that psychological problem she has in regards to playing Serena. She was never meant to be a great champion historically.

Chadwixx
05-26-2010, 02:11 PM
We already explained to you that weeks at #1 is not a significant stat in an era Safina and Jankovic have spent significant time at #1.

Much like we have explained to you that wimbledon is just another grand slam :)

Thundervolley, lendl (seles too) is knocked down for not winning wimbledon because its the only one he didnt. Much like henin will be at the end of her career when compared to other greats who did win all four. But the point still remains, henin has 3 of the 4 and venus only has 2.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 02:14 PM
I never claimed to be any better, you must be confused. The difference is I can at least accept the truth; if you can't then you need to get off the internet.
Dear Tanya Harding,

Telling others to "get off the internet" sounds very juvenile and trailer trash. In your case, the appropriate wording might have been, "get off the online."

Regards,

Mother Marjorie

vbranis
05-26-2010, 02:23 PM
So then Krajicek > Lendl because he won Wimbledon and has a winning H2H?
Because apparently the other Slams, match win %, and weeks at #1 don't matter...

davey25
05-26-2010, 02:25 PM
But what you explained isn't correct.

Every year that Justine Henin ended the year ranked #1, she won a grand slam tournament during that calendar year, something Davenport, Safina and Jankovic could never do. During Justine's weeks at number one, she was defending a grand slam title, something Safina and Jankovic could never do.

Justine more than validated her weeks at number one because she was also winning grand slam singles titles during that time period.

Venus never had the variety, stamina or talent outside of Wimbledon to maintain a #1 ranking. Her game never translated to ranking success because her brand of tennis is one-dimensional and she never had the talent to change her game to fit other surfaces well, especially at the majors. And then there was that psychological problem she has in regards to playing Serena. She was never meant to be a great champion historically.

Yes I agree Henin was a valid #1 while ranked #1. However Venus was also considered the real #1 at times like in 2000, 2001, early 2002 when she was not officialy ranked there. My main point is even though Henin's time at #1 was valid, and she was legitimately the best player in the World for much of it, when people look back at an era Safina, Jankovic, and Ivanovic spent so much time at #1, and where Davenport leads in year end #1s and Hingis at time at #1, time spent at #1 wont be a determining factor when comparing players that are close in greatness like Henin and Venus currently.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 02:28 PM
So then Krajicek > Lendl because he won Wimbledon and has a winning H2H?
Because apparently the other Slams, match win %, and weeks at #1 don't matter...
Stop. You are making way too much sense for these vituperators of history.

Its amazing what lengths ThunderWonder and Davey25 have went to in their failed attempt to dumb-down the history of tennis in this thread.

davey25
05-26-2010, 02:32 PM
So then Krajicek > Lendl because he won Wimbledon and has a winning H2H?
Because apparently the other Slams, match win %, and weeks at #1 don't matter...

If Krajicek had 8 slams like Lendl, and 5 of Krajicek's 8 slams were Wimbledons with Lendl still not having won it, and if they had played 9 times and Krajicek had won 7 of them despite being only 2 years apart in age, then sure.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 02:34 PM
Yes I agree Henin was a valid #1 while ranked #1. However Venus was also considered the real #1 at times like in 2000, 2001, early 2002 when she was not officialy ranked there. My main point is even though Henin's time at #1 was valid, and she was legitimately the best player in the World for much of it, when people look back at an era Safina, Jankovic, and Ivanovic spent so much time at #1, and where Davenport leads in year end #1s and Hingis at time at #1, time spent at #1 wont be a determining factor when comparing players that are close in greatness like Henin and Venus currently.
Since when?

Every tennis historian knows that Henin's numbers were validated by her success at the grand slam events. You cannot simply dismiss an important piece of tennis history because it doesn't fit your particular agenda.

Weeks at number one are an important part of tennis history. See Roger Federer surpass Pete Sampras very soon. Ooops, is that why you don't like weeks at number one debate?

davey25
05-26-2010, 02:36 PM
If weeks at #1 were that important people would be saying Connors was a greater champion than Borg, despite that he was no longer the best player in the World much of his time ranked #1. Rankings are often skewed to reality. While I concede that isnt the case while Henin was ranked #1, the fact that it is often is undermines their value.

vbranis
05-26-2010, 02:40 PM
If weeks at #1 were that important people would be saying Connors was a greater champion than Borg, despite that he was no longer the best player in the World much of his time ranked #1. Rankings are often skewed to reality. While I concede that isnt the case while Henin was ranked #1, the fact that it is often is undermines their value.

People consider Borg better because he won 11 Slams compared to Connors' 8. But when 2 players have an equal # of Slams, weeks at #1 are the main tiebreaker

TMF
05-26-2010, 03:01 PM
We already explained to you that weeks at #1 is not a significant stat in an era Safina and Jankovic have spent significant time at #1. We already explained to you if year end #1s were that important Davenport and Hingis would be greater players than Serena, and Davenport with only 3 slams would be the greatest player of this generation. We have responded to your #1 stats multiple times over, you just choose to ignore it.

5 Wimbledons to 0 and 7 combined Wimbledon/U.S Opens to 2 is a much better tiebreaker when 2 players have 7 slams than #1 stats in this particular era. I dont see how anyone can rationalize otherwise. Also all of Venus's doubles success when Henin doesnt even play doubles.

You don’t get it, do you? The weeks at #1 and year end #1 IS important but not as much as GS count. No one said Ana, Jelena, or Safina are > than Venus, so there’s no point in comparing them to her. Since Venus = Henin in GS count, we have to look at some other stats. And the #1 ranking will decides who the greater player. Can’t you and thundervolley grasp this simple concept?

Also you are grasping at straw if you include double into this debate. We are talking about single here, nothing else. No one is comparing the bryan’s brother to Federer, do they? Didn’t think so.

TMF
05-26-2010, 03:04 PM
People consider Borg better because he won 11 Slams compared to Connors' 8. But when 2 players have an equal # of Slams, weeks at #1 are the main tiebreaker

Thanks. I know this has been reiterate so many times already but somehow they can’t get it through their thick skull.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 03:10 PM
Thanks. I know this has been reiterate so many times already but somehow they can’t get it through their thick skull.
Mother Marjorie calls it being "stuck on stupid"

davey25
05-26-2010, 03:12 PM
People consider Borg better because he won 11 Slams compared to Connors' 8. But when 2 players have an equal # of Slams, weeks at #1 are the main tiebreaker

and this is where you are wrong. Having 5 Wimbledons to 0 Wimbledons (with both having 2 U.S Opens) is a much bigger difference than time spent at #1 especialy in an era people will look back at and laugh alot of the rankings. Wimbledon >>>>>> being ranked #1. Their lopsided head to head considering they are only 2 years apart in age and both have 7 slams is also a critical difference.

vbranis
05-26-2010, 03:28 PM
Their lopsided head to head considering they are only 2 years apart in age and both have 7 slams is also a critical difference.

But Venus' last win was at the '03 AO, before Henin's prime (yet during Venus' own prime). They've only played once more in '07, with Henin winning. The other 6 wins from Venus were all in '01-'02 when Henin was only 19-20 years old. Which makes the H2H irrelevant

davey25
05-26-2010, 03:36 PM
The head to head is always relevant when the ages are as close as Henin and Venus. Henin's "prime" did not begin until the Williams sisters began having injury problems, Hingis and Seles were retired, and Davenport and Capriati were both starting to fade. Funny how that is.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 03:49 PM
The head to head is always relevant when the ages are as close as Henin and Venus. Henin's "prime" did not begin until the Williams sisters began having injury problems, Hingis and Seles were retired, and Davenport and Capriati were both starting to fade. Funny how that is.
So what's your excuse for the Williams Sisters in 2006 and 2007? Lemme guess, they were "injured". So injured in fact that wearing stilettos while having a "knee injury" became en vogue.

Venus Williams never really had a prime, because she was never a consistent, or durable enough tennis player to mark a considerable time of excellence in the sport. Sporadic wins at one grand slam tournament. Historically, Venus was pretty much toast after lil sis began beating up on her. And quite frankly, when it came to devoting the time and effort it would take to be historically great, she was kinda lazy.

Venus hasn't had a great year in the sport of tennis since 2000-2002. And even then, you just knew she wasn't psychologically strong enough to ever be #1 for more than a few weeks. Thank Jennifer Capriati for that. Heh.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 04:00 PM
Davey25, for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfbpOiIyEf4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es36-xURHJE

vbranis
05-26-2010, 04:00 PM
The head to head is always relevant when the ages are as close as Henin and Venus. Henin's "prime" did not begin until the Williams sisters began having injury problems, Hingis and Seles were retired, and Davenport and Capriati were both starting to fade. Funny how that is.

Henin's prime was '03-'08. So Venus was injured for 5 years? Or was it that she wasn't advancing to the later rounds consistently enough to play Henin?

davey25
05-26-2010, 04:05 PM
Henin's prime was '03-'08. So Venus was injured for 5 years? Or was it that she wasn't advancing to the later rounds consistently enough to play Henin?

Venus indeed had alot of injury problems in 2003 and 2006 especialy. Henin had some major health problems in 2004 and 2005. Little wonder they didnt play those years after the 2003 Australian Open. Then Henin retires in 2008. It as much on Henin they didnt play more as Venus.

It was Henin who now admits she lost to Bartoli since she was too scared to play Venus in the Wimbledon final. Fact.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 04:13 PM
Venus indeed had alot of injury problems in 2003 and 2006 especialy. Henin had some major health problems in 2004 and 2005. Little wonder they didnt play those years after the 2003 Australian Open. Then Henin retires in 2008. It as much on Henin they didnt play more as Venus.

It was Henin who now admits she lost to Bartoli since she was too scared to play Venus in the Wimbledon final. Fact.

Here's scared Justine vs Venus after Wimbledon 2007. Just a few weeks later at the US Open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YOZjnpsNWk

Chadwixx
05-26-2010, 04:15 PM
It was Henin who now admits she lost to Bartoli since she was too scared to play Venus in the Wimbledon final. Fact.

You got any links on this? I find it hard to believe any player would take half the paycheck and pts because of being scared.

davey25
05-26-2010, 04:23 PM
Here is the interview where Henin admits both losing to Bartoli since she was scared of facing Venus in the final, and her obsession with winning Wimbledon, the sports pre-eminent event which Venus has won 5 times to her 0:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article6949302.ece

Justine Henin: ‘Wimbledon is my challenge now and I will never give up’

For Justine Henin, life was good until June, when Roger Federer won the French Open. She was an ex-tennis player — a busy, fulfilled, very happily ex-tennis player — and she had it all worked out until that day Federer started messing with her head.

She surrenders all this information very willingly; surprisingly willingly for an athlete who is reputedly shy and private. But she is perfectly forthcoming, at times fascinatingly so, on the internal drama of Federer, of her fear of Venus Williams, of whether life is better with or without a tennis racket in her right hand and why Wimbledon has driven her to make the comeback.

So let us make this clear, because in an interview with Henin, she likes to deal in clarity. Her comeback is nothing to do with Kim Clijsters’s recent phenomenally successful US Open-winning return. Not at all, she says. It is because of Federer.

On June 7, she watched a TV broadcast of a tennis match for the first time since her retirement 13 months earlier. She had not been interested before then. She was so uninterested that, in that time, she had only hit balls twice and those were attempts at social tennis with friends.

But Federer had won everything going apart from Roland Garros and she wished him well, and so she decided to watch. And as he at last sealed a French Open title, says Henin, “I started to feel something strange.” She describes this as a “little voice inside me” that so surprised her that “for the first few days, I didn’t want to hear it”. These words are very personal: “I couldn’t believe that this thing inside my heart that I thought was dead was coming back — this thought that I could walk on the court again.”

So she ignored it for a while, but the voice grew stronger. “Finally,” she says, “I had the courage to put on my cap and take my racket and go on the court and try and see how it felt. And that very first time, I felt it, I still had the passion.” The cap is significant, she says. “One of my friends saw me wearing the cap and said: ‘Now I know.’ ”

Henin would like such certainty and clarity always, you feel, but recognises that it is not always possible. In her first tennis life, she could not see beyond what she calls her “bubble”. She remembers Christmas in 2007, spent with her family: “Important moments I couldn’t enjoy. We had a good night but my mind was somewhere else, on the next tournament, thinking that in two days I leave for Australia.”

It was often like that. “I could be with my friends or family, but not there,” she says. She also experienced a considerable identity crisis. “I really thought tennis was the only thing I could do and in the last six months of my career, I wasn’t proud any more of my talent or the sacrifices I was making.” Eventually, sealed inside the bubble, unable to “get away and get oxygen”, she decided to break free. And because the desire was “dead”, she really thought, at 25, that retirement was complete, that she would never be back.

Back in the old days when she could not stop to think, she presumed she was OK with Wimbledon, or rather without Wimbledon, the one grand-slam title to have eluded her. “I never thought Wimbledon would make me happier,” she says. She thought that what mattered was the journey of her career, the hard work, the teamwork, the team around her — and they did matter. But she kidded herself that that — and three of the four Slams — was enough. The day Federer completed his full set, she realised it was not.

“The comeback is not all about Wimbledon but it’s a big part of it,” she says. “The French Open is the tournament of my heart; there’s been a long love story for me there. But Wimbledon is the one I never won and it’s going to be my challenge now and I’ll never give up.”

Only out of the bubble has she really stopped “to analyse why I never won it”. Her conclusions are honest: “Because I didn’t have enough confidence in myself as a grass-court player. Because I am always scared of playing the Williams sisters on grass, especially Venus.”

Henin’s fear of Venus hit its peak in 2007. “Part of the reason I lost to [Marion] Bartoli in the semi-final was because I was scared to face Venus in the final,” she says.

This is fascinating. Henin spent her life proving that a lightweight could compete with the modern heavyweights, but it turns out that she never completely believed it herself. “When I was younger, not a lot of people thought I could be a great player because I was so small,” she said. “Every time I had to play [the Williams sisters], I was always scared I couldn’t compete with their power.” Now she believes it will be different.

She will return to the Sony Ericsson WTA Tour in a different frame of mind, she will reside both inside and out of the bubble, she hopes to be herself more in public — “far away from the serious pro image you see on the court, I am very funny and I talk all the time” — and “I will always know now that I am someone else before being a tennis player”.

She will also tackle Wimbledon in a different frame of mind. She might seek to plan her campaign differently, she may play more grass-court tennis; anything to build the confidence she needs to face the Williams sisters.

Modestly, though, she warns not to expect too much too soon. “I’m probably 70 per cent now,” she says, which is not bad given that she beat the world No 12, Flavia Pennetta, in an exhibition match on Sunday.

When will she be 100 per cent? “I hope by mid-season next year,” she says. Which sounds pretty much like Wimbledon.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 05:21 PM
It as much on Henin they didnt play more as Venus.

Henin vs V. Williams (Grand Slam Tournament Records)


Justine Henin ***(136-25 84%)***

V. Williams (192-43 81.7%)


Justine Henin Australian Open (36-7 84%)

2000 2R
2001 4R
2002 QF
2003 SF
2004 W
2005 A
2006 F
2007 A
2008 QF
2009 A
2010 F

Venus Williams Australian Open (37-11 77%)

1998 QF
1999 QF
2000 A
2001 SF
2002 QF
2003 F
2004 3R *Year Henin Won
2005 4R
2006 1R
2007 A
2008 QF
2009 2R
2010 QF


Justine Henin French Open (38-4 90%)

1999 2R
2000 A
2001 SF
2002 1R
2003 W
2004 2R
2005 W
2006 W
2007 W
2008 A
2009 A

Venus Williams French Open (37-13 74%)

1997 2R
1998 QF
1999 4R
2000 QF
2001 1R
2002 F
2003 4R *year Henin Won
2004 QF
2005 3R *year Henin Won
2006 QF *year Henin Won
2007 3R *year Henin Won
2008 3R
2009 3R


Justine Henin Wimbledon (27-7 79%)

2000 1R
2001 F
2002 SF
2003 SF
2004 A
2005 1R
2006 F
2007 SF
2008 A
2009 A

Venus Williams Wimbledon (64-8 89%)

1997 1R
1998 QF
1999 QF
2000 W
2001 W
2002 F
2003 F
2004 2R
2005 W
2006 3R
2007 W
2008 W
2009 F


Justine Henin US Open (35-7 83%)

1999 1R
2000 4R
2001 4R
2002 4R
2003 W
2004 4R
2005 4R
2006 F
2007 W
2008 A
2009 A

Venus Williams US Open (54-9 86%)

1997 F
1998 SF
1999 SF
2000 W
2001 W
2002 F
2003 A *year Henin Won
2004 4R
2005 QF
2006 A
2007 SF *year Henin Won
2008 QF
2009 4R

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-26-2010, 05:21 PM
Here is the interview where Henin admits both losing to Bartoli since she was scared of facing Venus in the final, and her obsession with winning Wimbledon, the sports pre-eminent event which Venus has won 5 times to her 0:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article6949302.ece

Oh, that ever-brave Henin, the fearless champ...running away from Venus. Sounds like a real #2 of this generation...not.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-26-2010, 05:23 PM
Who are you? Using such foul language against me and MotherMarjorie is not making you any better poster.

...said the hypocrite who flames on nearly every page of this thread.

You never learn just how easy a set-up you are.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 05:23 PM
Oh, that ever-brave Henin, the fearless champ...running away from Venus. Sounds like a real #2 of this generation...not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YOZjnpsNWk

jamesblakefan#1
05-26-2010, 05:27 PM
I think it's a close debate. In any case I don't like the way certain people are devaluing one or both of them. Both have their flaws (Henin lack of Wimbledon, not as much longevity; Venus lack of RG, lack of weeks at #1). In the end it could go either way. But both are all time greats and certainly top 5 on their respective surfaces - Venus on grass and Henin on clay.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-26-2010, 05:28 PM
Much like we have explained to you that wimbledon is just another grand slam :)

Thundervolley, lendl (seles too) is knocked down for not winning wimbledon because its the only one he didnt. Much like henin will be at the end of her career when compared to other greats who did win all four. But the point still remains, henin has 3 of the 4 and venus only has 2.

Chadwixx, remember, Sampras repeatedly being considered one of the greats has nothing to do with this imagined "career slam" title. No historian reduces the level of his stellar accomplshments because he never won the FO, because in the end, he (Sampras) excelled at the most valued slam of all.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 05:29 PM
We already explained to you that weeks at #1 is not a significant stat in an era Safina and Jankovic have spent significant time at #1. We already explained to you if year end #1s were that important Davenport and Hingis would be greater players than Serena, and Davenport with only 3 slams would be the greatest player of this generation. We have responded to your #1 stats multiple times over, you just choose to ignore it.

5 Wimbledons to 0 and 7 combined Wimbledon/U.S Opens to 2 is a much better tiebreaker when 2 players have 7 slams than #1 stats in this particular era. I dont see how anyone can rationalize otherwise. Also all of Venus's doubles success when Henin doesnt even play doubles.

Uh, did you know Venus has a losing record against Martina Hingis (10-11) and Lindsay Davenport (13-14). Heh.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-26-2010, 05:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YOZjnpsNWk

Sorry Mumsy, but YouTube links do not erase her admission of fear about facing Venus at Wimbledon.

She said it.

Accept it....unless the opposite is true and she lost to....Bartoli...because she was simply outplayed. Either option does not shine a nice light on Justine.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-26-2010, 05:36 PM
I think it's a close debate. In any case I don't like the way certain people are devaluing one or both of them. Both have their flaws (Henin lack of Wimbledon, not as much longevity; Venus lack of RG, lack of weeks at #1). In the end it could go either way. But both are all time greats and certainly top 5 on their respective surfaces - Venus on grass and Henin on clay.

I've no problem saying Justine is the greatest clay courter of this generation--she most certainly is by a country mile, just as Venus is the same on grass. However, some wish to package and sell Justine's alleged overall status in this generation as though there's no debate (apparently there is).

TMF
05-26-2010, 05:39 PM
Henin vs V. Williams (Grand Slam Tournament Records)


Justine Henin ***(136-25 84%)***

V. Williams (192-43 81.7%)


Justine Henin Australian Open (36-7 84%)

2000 2R
2001 4R
2002 QF
2003 SF
2004 W
2005 A
2006 F
2007 A
2008 QF
2009 A
2010 F

Venus Williams Australian Open (37-11 77%)

1998 QF
1999 QF
2000 A
2001 SF
2002 QF
2003 F
2004 3R *Year Henin Won
2005 4R
2006 1R
2007 A
2008 QF
2009 2R
2010 QF


Justine Henin French Open (38-4 90%)

1999 2R
2000 A
2001 SF
2002 1R
2003 W
2004 2R
2005 W
2006 W
2007 W
2008 A
2009 A

Venus Williams French Open (37-13 74%)

1997 2R
1998 QF
1999 4R
2000 QF
2001 1R
2002 F
2003 4R *year Henin Won
2004 QF
2005 3R *year Henin Won
2006 QF *year Henin Won
2007 3R *year Henin Won
2008 3R
2009 3R


Justine Henin Wimbledon (27-7 79%)

2000 1R
2001 F
2002 SF
2003 SF
2004 A
2005 1R
2006 F
2007 SF
2008 A
2009 A

Venus Williams Wimbledon (64-8 89%)

1997 1R
1998 QF
1999 QF
2000 W
2001 W
2002 F
2003 F
2004 2R
2005 W
2006 3R
2007 W
2008 W
2009 F


Justine Henin US Open (35-7 83%)

1999 1R
2000 4R
2001 4R
2002 4R
2003 W
2004 4R
2005 4R
2006 F
2007 W
2008 A
2009 A

Venus Williams US Open (54-9 86%)

1997 F
1998 SF
1999 SF
2000 W
2001 W
2002 F
2003 A *year Henin Won
2004 4R
2005 QF
2006 A
2007 SF *year Henin Won
2008 QF
2009 4R

Perfect...just PERFECT.

And you were easy on them by not including the (1)year end championship, (2) yr end #1, (3)# weeks at #1.

You got thunderphony and davey25 are running away and hide like c0ck roaches!

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 05:41 PM
Tier I Titles:

Henin (10)
V. Williams (6)

Tier II Titles:

Henin (17)
V. Williams (17)

(Mother Marjorie note: V. Williams won more Tier III titles, because we all know how much she likes playing in Acapulco)


Career Finals:

Henin (42-eighteen) 70%
V. Williams (43-27) 61%


Career Singles Records:

Justine Henin: 514-111 82%
V. Williams: 579–141 80%


Grand Slam Finals:

Henin (7-5) 58%
V. Williams (7-7) 50%


Year-End #1 Ranking:

Henin: (3) 2003, 2006, 2007 (each year, won at least one grand slam singles tournament)
V. Williams: (never)


Weeks at Number One:

Justine Henin 117* (removed self from rankings while #1 upon retirement in 2008)
V. Williams 11


Year-End WTA Championships:

Henin (2) 2006, 2007
V. Williams 2008

But somehow, Davey25 and ThunderFault thinks that Wimbledon alone trumps it all...history tells us differently. Venus will always be known as a Wimbledon Champion, Justine Henin will always be known as a World Champion.

TMF
05-26-2010, 05:46 PM
Sorry Mumsy, but YouTube links do not erase her admission of fear about facing Venus at Wimbledon.

She said it.

Accept it....unless the opposite is true and she lost to....Bartoli...because she was simply outplayed. Either option does not shine a nice light on Justine.

I bet you didn't even dare to see that youtube. You know it would be quite painful for you, so don't bother to say anything if you don't have the guts to see it for yourself.

West Coast Ace
05-26-2010, 05:47 PM
You got thunderphony and davey25 are running away and hide like c0ck roaches!Or they are two of the fattest trolls on this board. You guys fed them for 10 pages. Hope you were using the low carb Troll Food... :)

TMF
05-26-2010, 05:49 PM
I've no problem saying Justine is the greatest clay courter of this generation--she most certainly is by a country mile, just as Venus is the same on grass. However, some wish to package and sell Justine's alleged overall status in this generation as though there's no debate (apparently there is).

There's more to tennis than just RG and SW19. Take a look at the overall picture and clearly Justine's career achievements is much more impressive.

Tunnel vision!!!

vortex1
05-26-2010, 05:52 PM
Justine isn't done winning slams, Venus is. Make this thread in 3 years and then we can compare.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 05:52 PM
There's more to tennis than just RG and SW19. Take a look at the overall picture and clearly Justine's career achievements is much more impressive.

Tunnel vision!!!
And Henin hasn't even played as long, and even stepped away from the game for a year and a half.

TMF
05-26-2010, 05:56 PM
Or they are two of the fattest trolls on this board. You guys fed them for 10 pages. Hope you were using the low carb Troll Food... :)

I'm not sure what type of food will even slow them down. It's like TROLL is the basic necessity for their survival!

TMF
05-26-2010, 06:02 PM
And Henin hasn't even played as long, and even stepped away from the game for a year and a half.

Interesting that when throwing every variables to the discussion, everything seem to point in favor of Henin. And it isn't just by accident!

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 06:05 PM
Interesting that when throwing every variables to the discussion, everything seem to point in favor of Henin. And it isn't just by accident!
Numbers don't lie. If the glove don't fit, you must acquit.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 06:22 PM
I bet you didn't even dare to see that youtube. You know it would be quite painful for you, so don't bother to say anything if you don't have the guts to see it for yourself.
You mean like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DO_jlXjgxN8

or this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16JAdwUdi2s&feature=related

jamesblakefan#1
05-26-2010, 06:31 PM
Justine isn't done winning slams, Venus is. Make this thread in 3 years and then we can compare.

Based on their results this season, how would you conclude Venus is the one done winning slams? She had her best result in Australia since 08 (the last year she won Wimby BTW). Sure Henin made AO final, but hasn't done much of note since while Venus leads the WTA Race right now. Some of the best results of her career on clay, and her favorite slam just around the corner where she may be favored even over Serena. If Henin doesn't win RG she may be the one done winning slams as she's shown she's far from invincible on HC and we've yet to see if her ball bashing strategy will work at Wimby. I don't think either one's done BTW, but Henin is the one I question more, not Venus.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 06:36 PM
Based on their results this season, how would you conclude Venus is the one done winning slams? She had her best result in Australia since 08 (the last year she won Wimby BTW). Sure Henin made AO final, but hasn't done much of note since while Venus leads the WTA Race right now. Some of the best results of her career on clay, and her favorite slam just around the corner where she may be favored even over Serena. If Henin doesn't win RG she may be the one done winning slams as she's shown she's far from invincible on HC and we've yet to see if her ball bashing strategy will work at Wimby. I don't think either one's done BTW, but Henin is the one I question more, not Venus.
Venus hasn't beaten anyone in the top 5 this year. Henin has.

Venus' "great year" is masked by the great majority of her wins over lower-ranked players (see Acapulco). Venus has shown in the later stage of tournaments this year when she faces bigger players, she get blown-away (see Jankovic and Clijsters). Venus will be lucky to make it to the French Open semi's. If she does, I'd be very surprised. However, she doesn't have the game historically to win in France because its very fragile on clay.

Justine will actually face stiff competition in earlier rounds and through the tournament. Be afraid. If Henin beats Sharapova, S. Williams and Jankovic, she'll likely be a major contender at the majors the rest of the year. Juju with a little confidence is too tough to beat. We saw that in '07.

Tanya
05-26-2010, 06:45 PM
Mother Marjorie finds it very, very interesting that you "love Serena" in your signature, yet call me "fat @ss." Here, allow me to open my compact and show you,

You're the one that claimed to have "all_this_@ss" to kiss, you called yourself a fat @ss. How stupid are you?

As for claiming Henin will be remembered as "world champion" -- that's a joke right? She's known for being the best clay court player of the generation (which isn't exactly saying much considering the weak clay court field of the past decade at least).

davey25
05-26-2010, 06:47 PM
Based on their results this season, how would you conclude Venus is the one done winning slams? She had her best result in Australia since 08 (the last year she won Wimby BTW). Sure Henin made AO final, but hasn't done much of note since while Venus leads the WTA Race right now. Some of the best results of her career on clay, and her favorite slam just around the corner where she may be favored even over Serena. If Henin doesn't win RG she may be the one done winning slams as she's shown she's far from invincible on HC and we've yet to see if her ball bashing strategy will work at Wimby. I don't think either one's done BTW, but Henin is the one I question more, not Venus.

Here I would have to disagree with you. First off I dont agree at all Venus is the favorite for Wimbledon. Last years final made it clear Serena is the favorite over Venus even at Wimbledon now and probably for the remainder of their careers. That isnt to say Venus cant win it again, but she isnt the favorite. I gaurantee you the bookies will give Serena lower odds to win it than Venus this year. Henin has a better chance to win the French Open than Venus at Wimbledon in the future, not neccessarily because she is better on clay than Venus on grass, but because she is lucky she doesnt really have anyone in her way. She just has to play fairly well and she wins. The only way Henin doesnt win Roland Garros until someone new or improved emerges on clay is if she plays poorly. At Wimbledon Venus has Serena in her way, and possibly Henin and Clijsters if they have improved on grass since they were last on tour, but of course Serena being the huge obstacle at the moment. And for what it is worth Venus is 1-3 vs Serena in Wimbledon finals, despite that she has 5 Wimbledons to Serena's 3. I actually like Venus a bit more than Serena, but my money is on Serena over Venus at any of the slams right now and it would take Venus beating Serena in a big slam match atleast once again to even think of changing my mind. So Venus doesnt really have any slam she is favored to win at this point, while Henin for now does.

As for hard courts Venus is not more likely to win slams there than Henin in the future. Venus hasnt made a hard court slam final since 2003 now. Henin made one just this year. As for better results Henin obviously fared much better in Australia, and at Miami where Henin lost after having a match point to Clijsters Venus barely won games in the final. You say Henin hasnt done much since Australia but she nearly won Miami and won Madrid.

Henin is 2 years younger than Venus as well. Overall Henin probably has a better chance than Venus at any of the slams other than Wimbledon in the near future, and has an easier path at the French than what Venus faces at Wimbledon with Serena also on one of her favorite surfaces.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 06:57 PM
Tanya Harding, stumbles out of her trailer, cigarette drooping out of the corner of her mouth, Colt 45 in hand and sayz.....

You're the one that claimed to have "all_this_@ss" to kiss, you called yourself a fat @ss. How stupid are you?

As for claiming Henin will be remembered as "world champion" -- that's a joke right? She's known for being the best clay court player of the generation (which isn't exactly saying much considering the weak clay court field of the past decade at least).
Dear Tanya Harding,

Once you learn about tennis history, and Justine Henin's accomplishments, Mother Marjorie will have that discussion with you. Until then, enjoy your Kool 100's and life full of gloom-dispair, ignorant one.

Mother Marjorie found a song that reminds me of your type:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOZPBUu7Fro

Tanya
05-26-2010, 07:03 PM
To suggest that Henin is not known for her clay-court dominance is utter idiocy. Make all the Tanya Harding comments you want but it only further illustrates your lack of better argument. Also kudos on ignoring the fact that I exposed you calling yourself a fat @ss.

I'd take being trailer trash over a complete and utter lunatic any day.

Btw Tanya Harding could probably beat the crap out of Mother Marjorie any day. Maybe you should pick your battles more wisely, lmao.

davey25
05-26-2010, 07:03 PM
"Tanya" Harding wasnt so bad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3P7wxwMMUU

davey25
05-26-2010, 07:06 PM
To suggest that Henin is not known for her clay-court dominance is utter idiocy. Make all the Tanya Harding comments you want but it only further illustrates your lack of better argument. Also kudos on ignoring the fact that I exposed you calling yourself a fat @ss.

I'd take being trailer trash over a complete and utter lunatic any day.

In fairness though lets remember too Venus is known mostly for her grass court dominance as well. Neither will be known as an all surface legend in the same vein as Serena the way things stand now. Both are great hard court players but even their hard court prowess is clearly overshadowed by their pet surfaces, and Henin does actually have 1 more hard court slam than Venus (though Venus has the edge in many other ways- Miami titles, head to head, etc...). Venus will be remembered as the dominant grass court player of her generation (unless Serena eclipses her) and a great but not dominant hard court player who struggled (relatively) on clay. Henin will be remembered as the dominant clay court player of her generation and a great but not dominant hard court player who struggled (relatively) on grass. The main difference though is if you have to struggle on a surface to the point of not winning it best not be at the Worlds most legendary tournament- Wimbledon.

MotherMarjorie
05-26-2010, 07:21 PM
I'd take being trailer trash over a complete and utter lunatic any day.

Btw Tanya Harding could probably beat the crap out of Mother Marjorie any day. Maybe you should pick your battles more wisely, lmao.
Dear Tanya Harding,

Mother Marjorie has been a student of martial arts for many, many years. Loud-mouthed trailer trash does not scare her one bit. Especially those from your gene pool who claim to understand tennis history.

Mother Marjorie admires your courage to admit that you are indeed trailer trash. Enjoy your world of poly-blend, cellulite, dirt roads, and smoke-stained walls. It fits you well, sweety.

Sincerely,

Mother Marjorie

Tanya
05-26-2010, 07:32 PM
In fairness though lets remember too Venus is known mostly for her grass court dominance as well. Neither will be known as an all surface legend in the same vein as Serena the way things stand now. Both are great hard court players but even their hard court prowess is clearly overshadowed by their pet surfaces, and Henin does actually have 1 more hard court slam than Venus (though Venus has the edge in many other ways- Miami titles, head to head, etc...). Venus will be remembered as the dominant grass court player of her generation (unless Serena eclipses her) and a great but not dominant hard court player who struggled (relatively) on clay. Henin will be remembered as the dominant clay court player of her generation and a great but not dominant hard court player who struggled (relatively) on grass. The main difference though is if you have to struggle on a surface to the point of not winning it best not be at the Worlds most legendary tournament- Wimbledon.

I never said Venus wasn't going to be known for her grass-court specialization. My comment was in response to whoever said Venus would be remembered for grass and Henin would be remembered as a "world champion".

@ Mother Marjorie - I'll believe it when I see it, sweety.

jamesblakefan#1
05-26-2010, 07:57 PM
Here I would have to disagree with you. First off I dont agree at all Venus is the favorite for Wimbledon. Last years final made it clear Serena is the favorite over Venus even at Wimbledon now and probably for the remainder of their careers. That isnt to say Venus cant win it again, but she isnt the favorite. I gaurantee you the bookies will give Serena lower odds to win it than Venus this year. Henin has a better chance to win the French Open than Venus at Wimbledon in the future, not neccessarily because she is better on clay than Venus on grass, but because she is lucky she doesnt really have anyone in her way. She just has to play fairly well and she wins. The only way Henin doesnt win Roland Garros until someone new or improved emerges on clay is if she plays poorly. At Wimbledon Venus has Serena in her way, and possibly Henin and Clijsters if they have improved on grass since they were last on tour, but of course Serena being the huge obstacle at the moment. And for what it is worth Venus is 1-3 vs Serena in Wimbledon finals, despite that she has 5 Wimbledons to Serena's 3. I actually like Venus a bit more than Serena, but my money is on Serena over Venus at any of the slams right now and it would take Venus beating Serena in a big slam match atleast once again to even think of changing my mind. So Venus doesnt really have any slam she is favored to win at this point, while Henin for now does.

As for hard courts Venus is not more likely to win slams there than Henin in the future. Venus hasnt made a hard court slam final since 2003 now. Henin made one just this year. As for better results Henin obviously fared much better in Australia, and at Miami where Henin lost after having a match point to Clijsters Venus barely won games in the final. You say Henin hasnt done much since Australia but she nearly won Miami and won Madrid.

Henin is 2 years younger than Venus as well. Overall Henin probably has a better chance than Venus at any of the slams other than Wimbledon in the near future, and has an easier path at the French than what Venus faces at Wimbledon with Serena also on one of her favorite surfaces.

IDK. It remains to be seen if Henin's guns blazing gameplan will work in the long run, even here at RG where she looked iffy at times vs Pironkova 1R. Granted she won in straights and is still huge favorite to win the title, but if she doesn't it could spell trouble on her fragile confidence and weaken her chances at Wimbledon even more.

Yes Henin made the AO final but it was no cakewalk - Petrova, Wickmayer, and Kleybanova all could have taken her out. That's what I mean by Henin not being invincible on HC. BTW she won Stuttgart, not Madrid. But that's besides the point.

Venus does seem to be in good form this season, granted she hasn't performed well at all in her 2 biggest matches so far (vs Clijsters Miami, Jankovic Rome). I guess what I'm trying to say is...Henin's likely to win RG, but if she doesn't, I like Venus' chances of winning either the USO or Wimby more than I like Henin's chances. And with Henin's form the way it's been this season (unpredictable) it isn't completely unlikely that she has another mystifying day and loses to Stosur or more likely Serena. That's why I said what I said.

davey25
05-26-2010, 08:18 PM
Fair enough. I agree if Henin doesnt win the French things will perhaps start to look more grim for her.

I am not convinced Venus can get over her mental block with Serena though, and she has the misfortune to share the same favorite surfaces as Serena. And the fact she has been owned by both Serena and Clijsters on hard courts for awhile now (I think she has lost her last 4 to Kim on hard courts now) doesnt bode great for her chances for a hard court slam either. Granted Henin has had trouble beating Serena and Kim on hard courts this year. I think in a hard court slam right now Serena is the favorite and Clijsters the 2nd favorite, so I dont like either Henin or Venus to win one at the moment.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-27-2010, 05:38 AM
I bet you didn't even dare to see that youtube. You know it would be quite painful for you, so don't bother to say anything if you don't have the guts to see it for yourself.

With childish posts like yours, it is no wonder ksbh was yet another member to make wise observations about you:

ksbh: TMF ... you really should wait until you're a little older before you continue to post!

Your eternal hallmark. It is no wonder no one takes you seriously. Well, the Williams sisters' personal security should, considering the clearly dangerous levels of hatred you display toward the two every day.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-27-2010, 05:52 AM
MotherMarjorie, you typically flee from facts you cannot argue against, or dodge with irrelevant nonsense, such as posting a YouTube video as though that has any bearing on Henin's stated fear of facing Venus at Wimbledon.

Difficult as it is for you, to stay on point, Mumsy.

Once again Joan Crawford, YouTube links do not erase her admission of fear about facing Venus at Wimbledon, so you have two choices:

1. Henin told the truth in admitting she was afraid of Venus.

...or...

2. The opposite is true and she lost to Super Grass Courter of The Universe...Bartoli...because she was simply outplayed.


Let's see you actually address either, which places Justine in a not too flattering position.

I detect you squirming and dodging in the near future.....

vbranis
05-27-2010, 07:41 AM
^^For whatever reason (which I don't think matters), Justine played a very poor match against Bartoli and deserved to lose. But it's not THAT bad, everyone has tough losses. Even Venus, a 5-time Wimbledon champion lost to grass-court powerhouse Sprem one year. See my point? Dwelling on someone's worst losses proves absolutely nothing.

TMF
05-27-2010, 09:23 AM
With childish posts like yours, it is no wonder ksbh was yet another member to make wise observations about you:





But look at how many members observe all you nonsense from one post after another in just one single thread.

I for one am SHOCKED that Thundervolley has taken an anti-Henin stance in this thread.

SHOCKED I say.


I'll stop if you stop ruining every thread on TT that has anything remotely to do with Henin with your wordy, agenda driven, biased hate.

Deal?

******** - you're indulging in thunderfolly - you're making stuff up as you go along.

Otherwise you wouldn't be a two-faced hypocrite. Cuz by the same token it is also an "accepted judgement" that Henin is second only to Serena as the best of her generation.


You're the one who's cherry picking history and ignoring one thing that is already in the history books:

You just don't get_IT_and will never get it. I am now convinced you are merely ignorant.

Justine has a great chance to complete her career slam. Federer did it by winning on his worst surface. Don’t rule out Henin. Oh, I forgot, “NEVER” exist in your world but there’s no such thing as “POSSIBILITY”. You are a very strange person.

ThunderTwinkle always creeps around any thread that mentions Justine Henin. Its very unhealthy and rather obsessive. He acts like he's so scared that she has, or could possibly take something away from Venus and Serena.

I foresee a possible ThunderTwinkle mental breakdown when Venus and Serena retire. All the crying...the DRAMA.....the DRAMA....and then some more DRAMA.............................just can't stand to live without all the DRAMA.....



OMG!:shock::shock:

Tanya
05-27-2010, 12:09 PM
^^For whatever reason (which I don't think matters), Justine played a very poor match against Bartoli and deserved to lose. But it's not THAT bad, everyone has tough losses. Even Venus, a 5-time Wimbledon champion lost to grass-court powerhouse Sprem one year. See my point? Dwelling on someone's worst losses proves absolutely nothing.

Except I'm fairly certain that Henin was up a set and a break on Bartoli in that match. It's not as if she was getting outplayed from the beginning.

davey25
05-27-2010, 01:58 PM
Yes it is quite believable that Henin was in fact scared to play Venus in the final as she herself now claims and that explains the inexplicable and completely unexpected turnaround in that match. On the other hand she could be lieing about being scared to play Venus and using that as a cover up for either choking away a big lead or flat out getting outplayed for almost 2 sets by an obscure overweight journeywomen like Bartoli in one of the biggest matches of her career. However if you wish to believe the latter, that is even worse than the former really, so there is no way she comes out of it looking good.

Cyan
05-27-2010, 02:09 PM
Disagree. Henin is a superior player. Also, stating that Wimbo is most important factor in tennis is rather subjective.

Anyone who wins 5 Wimbledons is one of the greats in my book.

Rippy
05-27-2010, 02:13 PM
Yes it is quite believable that Henin was in fact scared to play Venus in the final as she herself now claims and that explains the inexplicable and completely unexpected turnaround in that match. On the other hand she could be lieing about being scared to play Venus and using that as a cover up for either choking away a big lead or flat out getting outplayed for almost 2 sets by an obscure overweight journeywomen like Bartoli in one of the biggest matches of her career. However if you wish to believe the latter, that is even worse than the former really, so there is no way she comes out of it looking good.

Every player loses matches.

davey25
05-27-2010, 02:28 PM
Every player loses matches.

Not many greats loses in one of the few biggest matches of their career to a Marion Bartoli after being up 6-1, 2-0 though.

LDVTennis
05-27-2010, 02:44 PM
Dear Tanya Harding,

Mother Marjorie has been a student of martial arts for many, many years. Loud-mouthed trailer trash does not scare her one bit. Especially those from your gene pool who claim to understand tennis history.

Mother Marjorie admires your courage to admit that you are indeed trailer trash. Enjoy your world of poly-blend, cellulite, dirt roads, and smoke-stained walls. It fits you well, sweety.

Sincerely,

Mother Marjorie

Dear Mother Marjorie,

With all due respect, Tanya had talent. She may have squandered it, but she had it to squander.

This other Tanya has no talent, not even for internet repartee. Hard to believe, but there is a lower class of trailer trash than the original Tanya.

Sincerely,

LDVTennis

TMF
05-27-2010, 03:06 PM
Not many greats loses in one of the few biggest matches of their career to a Marion Bartoli after being up 6-1, 2-0 though.

Funny how you are so desperate by keep holding on Henin’s one lost when it means very little or nothing.
So she lost the match after winning the 1st set, big deal.



Here’s the list of GS matches that Venus lost after winning the first set:

AO
Davenport 1-6 7-5 6-3
Seles 6-7(4) 6-2 6-3
Williams 7-6(4) 3-6 6-4
Carla 2-6 6-3 7-5
Li 2-6 7-6(4) 7-5

RG
Nathalie 5-7 6-3 7-5
Barbara 2-6 7-6(7) 6-3
Vicario 6-0 1-6 6-2
Vera 2-6 6-2 6-4
Vaidisova 6-7(5) 6-1 6-3

SW19
Magdalena 4-6 6-2 6-4
Williams 4-6 6-4 6-2
Davenport 4-6 7-6(4) 9-7
Jankovic 7-6(8) 4-6 6-4

USO
Hingis 6-1 4-6 6-3
Clijsters 4-6 7-5 6-1



Keep coming after Henin and I will make Venus look worse and worse!!!

vbranis
05-27-2010, 03:17 PM
Not many greats loses in one of the few biggest matches of their career to a Marion Bartoli after being up 6-1, 2-0 though.

Right, like Venus did at the '03 French losing to Zvonareva after being up 6-2.:rolleyes: Or, more recently, this year at the AO she was up 6-2 5-3 against Li Na in the quarters.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-27-2010, 04:15 PM
Keep coming after Henin and I will make Venus look worse and worse!!!

Let's look at the specifics:

TMF says:

Keep coming after Henin ..

So, you are such a Henin-defensive, hostile troll, that you will continue to do (in your typically hypocritical fashion) exactly what you claimed you were not back on 5/25:

post #88 - 5-25-2010 - 01:02PM - : No one is undermining Venus by the way

...only to follow that easy-to-spot bullsh*t with today's example of yet another of your daily dips into psychotic hatred-ville:

Keep coming after Henin and I will make Venus look worse and worse!!!

So, not only are you a proven habitual liar and hypocrite, but now you are threatening to turn up the level of your admitted trolling.

Nothing in life should be so easy to expose...but you are.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-27-2010, 04:23 PM
Yes it is quite believable that Henin was in fact scared to play Venus in the final as she herself now claims and that explains the inexplicable and completely unexpected turnaround in that match. On the other hand she could be lieing about being scared to play Venus and using that as a cover up for either choking away a big lead or flat out getting outplayed for almost 2 sets by an obscure overweight journeywomen like Bartoli in one of the biggest matches of her career. However if you wish to believe the latter, that is even worse than the former really, so there is no way she comes out of it looking good.

Exactly. She set herself up by opening her mouth, when that was not necessary at all, so she was indeed quaking in her boots about facing Venus at the ever-elusive Wimbledon, or she had her *** handed to her by the much-maligned Bartoli. Henin's defenders in this thread really do not want to pick the only fact-based options left to them, hence all of the anti-Venus histrionics and dodge jobs.

TMF
05-27-2010, 04:49 PM
Let's look at the specifics:

TMF says:



So, you are such a Henin-defensive, hostile troll, that you will continue to do (in your typically hypocritical fashion) exactly what you claimed you were not back on 5/25:



...only to follow that easy-to-spot bullsh*t with today's example of yet another of your daily dips into psychotic hatred-ville:



So, not only are you a proven habitual liar and hypocrite, but now you are threatening to turn up the level of your admitted trolling.

Nothing in life should be so easy to expose...but you are.

This is coming from a same poster who's already assasinated so many player's characters in the ATP and WTA forum. And now he's moaning and crying about seeing the bad wolf.

You are in no position to judge anyone b/c you are the worst offender in here.

Thundervolley = hypocrite X 100
Thundervolley = hater X 100
Thundervolley = troll X 100



Now back to the topic:

Not many greats loses in one of the few biggest matches of their career to a Marion Bartoli after being up 6-1, 2-0 though.

Funny how you are so desperate by keep holding on Henin’s one lost when it means very little or nothing.
So she lost the match after winning the 1st set, big deal.



Here’s the list of GS matches that Venus lost after winning the first set:

AO
Davenport 1-6 7-5 6-3
Seles 6-7(4) 6-2 6-3
Williams 7-6(4) 3-6 6-4
Carla 2-6 6-3 7-5
Li 2-6 7-6(4) 7-5

RG
Nathalie 5-7 6-3 7-5
Barbara 2-6 7-6(7) 6-3
Vicario 6-0 1-6 6-2
Vera 2-6 6-2 6-4
Vaidisova 6-7(5) 6-1 6-3

SW19
Magdalena 4-6 6-2 6-4
Williams 4-6 6-4 6-2
Davenport 4-6 7-6(4) 9-7
Jankovic 7-6(8) 4-6 6-4

USO
Hingis 6-1 4-6 6-3
Clijsters 4-6 7-5 6-1



Keep coming after Henin and I will make Venus look worse and worse!!!

davey25
05-27-2010, 04:53 PM
Right, like Venus did at the '03 French losing to Zvonareva after being up 6-2.:rolleyes: Or, more recently, this year at the AO she was up 6-2 5-3 against Li Na in the quarters.

Notice I said one of the biggest matches of Henin's career. Wimbledon 07 was probably her best chance to date to win Wimbledon considering it her most dominant year ever of tennis to date. Wimbledon of course being the biggest event in tennis which she has not yet won, and the event she needs to complete her career slam. Yet in this hugely pitoval career match, maybe her biggest match ever (the Wimbledon final vs Venus would have been even bigger had she made it) vs an overweight journeywomen she loses after having a 6-1, 2-0 lead.

The matches you point out are not good paralels at all. Venus was injured at the 03 French, had nearly lost to a low ranked Aussie a couple rounds before, and had no good clay court results at all that year. She wasnt realistically a contender for the title or even the finals that year at all. Plus it was only a round of 16 match. It was probably about the 500th biggest match Venus has ever played or so.

This years Australian Open quarters was a bit bigger of a match but nowhere near what the 07 Wimbledon semis were for Henin.

davey25
05-27-2010, 04:59 PM
Exactly. She set herself up by opening her mouth, when that was not necessary at all, so she was indeed quaking in her boots about facing Venus at the ever-elusive Wimbledon, or she had her *** handed to her by the much-maligned Bartoli. Henin's defenders in this thread really do not want to pick the only fact-based options left to them, hence all of the anti-Venus histrionics and dodge jobs.

Exactly. Henin put her foot in her own mouth with her comments there. She is either admiting she is scared of a major rival with very similar achievements who is her main competitor for 2nd best of this generation, all but conceding her inferiority to her. Or if not she is simply refusing to own up or women up shall we say by being owned by Bartoli that day, again diminishing herself just as much in another way. When Venus was outplayed by the underheralded Carolina Sprem at Wimbledon 2004 she didnt search for phantom explanations. She just admited she didnt play to her potential that day and she ran into someone who was on fire and hitting lights out so lost. She didnt even bother to mention the ridiculous chair umpire decision which potentially cost her the tiebreak and maybe the match either. Then she came back like a champion the very next year and won Wimbledon, putting the dissapointing memories of 2004 which she handled with class to rest. Such a response seems to beyond Henin's capacity though and she simply searches for excuses but in the process paints herself into a corner that even her most loyal fans are struggling to get her out of.

MotherMarjorie
05-27-2010, 06:14 PM
Dear Mother Marjorie,

With all due respect, Tanya had talent. She may have squandered it, but she had it to squander.

This other Tanya has no talent, not even for internet repartee. Hard to believe, but there is a lower class of trailer trash than the original Tanya.

Sincerely,

LDVTennis
Point well-taken, LDV. Mother Marjorie believes Tanya is a lower class of trailer trash than Tonya Harding. Her new name will be Tanya Tucker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxRYMiitmho

MotherMarjorie
05-27-2010, 06:22 PM
Tier I Titles:

Henin (10)
V. Williams (6)

Tier II Titles:

Henin (17)
V. Williams (17)

(Mother Marjorie note: V. Williams won more Tier III titles, because we all know how much she likes playing in Acapulco)


Career Finals:

Henin (42-eighteen) 70%
V. Williams (43-27) 61%


Career Singles Records:

Justine Henin: 514-111 82%
V. Williams: 579–141 80%


Grand Slam Finals:

Henin (7-5) 58%
V. Williams (7-7) 50%


Year-End #1 Ranking:

Henin: (3) 2003, 2006, 2007 (each year, won at least one grand slam singles tournament)
V. Williams: (never)


Weeks at Number One:

Justine Henin 117* (removed self from rankings while #1 upon retirement in 2008)
V. Williams 11


Year-End WTA Championships:

Henin (2) 2006, 2007
V. Williams 2008

But somehow, Davey25 and ThunderFault thinks that Wimbledon alone trumps it all...history tells us differently. Venus will always be known as a Wimbledon Champion, Justine Henin will always be known as a World Champion.

MotherMarjorie
05-27-2010, 06:23 PM
Henin vs V. Williams (Grand Slam Tournament Records)


Justine Henin ***(136-25 84%)***

V. Williams (192-43 81.7%)


Justine Henin Australian Open (36-7 84%)

2000 2R
2001 4R
2002 QF
2003 SF
2004 W
2005 A
2006 F
2007 A
2008 QF
2009 A
2010 F

Venus Williams Australian Open (37-11 77%)

1998 QF
1999 QF
2000 A
2001 SF
2002 QF
2003 F
2004 3R *Year Henin Won
2005 4R
2006 1R
2007 A
2008 QF
2009 2R
2010 QF


Justine Henin French Open (38-4 90%)

1999 2R
2000 A
2001 SF
2002 1R
2003 W
2004 2R
2005 W
2006 W
2007 W
2008 A
2009 A

Venus Williams French Open (37-13 74%)

1997 2R
1998 QF
1999 4R
2000 QF
2001 1R
2002 F
2003 4R *year Henin Won
2004 QF
2005 3R *year Henin Won
2006 QF *year Henin Won
2007 3R *year Henin Won
2008 3R
2009 3R


Justine Henin Wimbledon (27-7 79%)

2000 1R
2001 F
2002 SF
2003 SF
2004 A
2005 1R
2006 F
2007 SF
2008 A
2009 A

Venus Williams Wimbledon (64-8 89%)

1997 1R
1998 QF
1999 QF
2000 W
2001 W
2002 F
2003 F
2004 2R
2005 W
2006 3R
2007 W
2008 W
2009 F


Justine Henin US Open (35-7 83%)

1999 1R
2000 4R
2001 4R
2002 4R
2003 W
2004 4R
2005 4R
2006 F
2007 W
2008 A
2009 A

Venus Williams US Open (54-9 86%)

1997 F
1998 SF
1999 SF
2000 W
2001 W
2002 F
2003 A *year Henin Won
2004 4R
2005 QF
2006 A
2007 SF *year Henin Won
2008 QF
2009 4R

Polaris
05-27-2010, 06:23 PM
Exactly. Henin put her foot in her own mouth with her comments there. She is either admiting she is scared of a major rival with very similar achievements who is her main competitor for 2nd best of this generation, all but conceding her inferiority to her. Or if not she is simply refusing to own up or women up shall we say by being owned by Bartoli that day, again diminishing herself just as much in another way. When Venus was outplayed by the underheralded Carolina Sprem at Wimbledon 2004 she didnt search for phantom explanations. She just admited she didnt play to her potential that day and she ran into someone who was on fire and hitting lights out so lost. She didnt even bother to mention the ridiculous chair umpire decision which potentially cost her the tiebreak and maybe the match either. Then she came back like a champion the very next year and won Wimbledon, putting the dissapointing memories of 2004 which she handled with class to rest. Such a response seems to beyond Henin's capacity though and she simply searches for excuses but in the process paints herself into a corner that even her most loyal fans are struggling to get her out of.

Apparently, justineheninhoogenbandfan was an idiot not to see this.

MotherMarjorie
05-27-2010, 06:38 PM
This is coming from a same poster who's already assasinated so many player's characters in the ATP and WTA forum. And now he's moaning and crying about seeing the bad wolf.
Yes, TMF!

Mother Marjorie also noticed that ThunderVolley has a history of crying wolf in this forum. Mother Marjorie can't count the number of times she's seen ThunderVolley call others "trolls" while inciting and creating a hostile environment within these threads.

Its not surprise that Davey25 and ThunderVolley are holding-hands a lot in these threads. They kinda run together. Spewing hate and envy for Justine Henin and Monica Seles. All the time. Non-stop. Its like their momma slapped stupid up-side their heads.

But you know what? Mother Marjorie has tons of love to spread around, even to the worst of vermin in discussion groups. Its time they begin getting the attention that only a Mother can give. Mother Marjorie-style.....

Oh, and Mother Marjorie heard that someone got unceremoniously dumped yesterday from a two-year relationship. Bwahahahaha!

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kx53k5UBoM1qa5pvso1_400.jpg

Andy Zarzuela
05-27-2010, 08:16 PM
Venus vs. Justine H2H record:


Venus leads 7-2

RANK (SEED)YEAREVENTSURFACEROUNDWINNERSCORERANK (SEED)
2 (2) 2001BERLIN-GERMAN OPENCLAYR16J. Henin6-1 6-418 (13)
2 (2) 2001WIMBLEDONGRASSFV.Williams6-1 3-6 6-09 (8)
4 (3) 2001NEW HAVENHARDQV.Williams6-3 5-7 6-26 (5)
3 (1) 2002GOLD COASTHARDFV.Williams7-5 6-27 (2)
2 (1) 2002ANTWERPCARPETFV.Williams6-3 5-7 6-39 (2)
2 (1) 2002AMELIA ISLANDCLAYFV.Williams2-6 7-5 7-6(5)9 (2)
1 (1) 2002WIMBLEDONGRASSSV.Williams6-3 6-26 (6)
2 (2) 2003AUSTRALIAN OPENHARDSV.Williams6-3 6-35 (5)
14 (12) 2007US OPENHARDSJ. Henin7-6(2) 6-41 (1)


4 of those victories are Finals. Enough said.

vbranis
05-27-2010, 08:22 PM
Venus vs. Justine H2H record:


Venus leads 7-2

RANK (SEED)YEAREVENTSURFACEROUNDWINNERSCORERANK (SEED)
2 (2) 2001BERLIN-GERMAN OPENCLAYR16J. Henin6-1 6-418 (13)
2 (2) 2001WIMBLEDONGRASSFV.Williams6-1 3-6 6-09 (8)
4 (3) 2001NEW HAVENHARDQV.Williams6-3 5-7 6-26 (5)
3 (1) 2002GOLD COASTHARDFV.Williams7-5 6-27 (2)
2 (1) 2002ANTWERPCARPETFV.Williams6-3 5-7 6-39 (2)
2 (1) 2002AMELIA ISLANDCLAYFV.Williams2-6 7-5 7-6(5)9 (2)
1 (1) 2002WIMBLEDONGRASSSV.Williams6-3 6-26 (6)
2 (2) 2003AUSTRALIAN OPENHARDSV.Williams6-3 6-35 (5)
14 (12) 2007US OPENHARDSJ. Henin7-6(2) 6-41 (1)


4 of those victories are Finals. Enough said.

And all 4 were well before Henin's prime and her 1st GS title.

Andy Zarzuela
05-27-2010, 08:25 PM
And all 4 were well before Henin's prime and her 1st GS title.

Before her prime? Well she was good enough to make finals back. Venus clearly owns her. You can't compare 2 players and completely disregard their head to head.

davey25
05-27-2010, 08:28 PM
Before her prime? Well she was good enough to make finals back. Venus clearly owns her. You can't compare 2 players and completely disregard their head to head.

It depends which 2 players they are. If you are comparing Sampras to Krajicek the head to head is meaningless to who is the better player. Even Federer to Nadal unless Nadal closes the gap in achievements. When you are comparing 2 players who both have 7 slam titles then the head to head becomes very important.

Another example is Evert and Navratilova. Their achievements are almost identical. The biggest reason nearly everyone rates Navratilova higher though is she so thoroughly owned Evert during her own prime years.

davey25
05-27-2010, 08:30 PM
And all 4 were well before Henin's prime and her 1st GS title.

Henin's "prime" did not start until the Williams sisters began struggling with injuries, Capriati and Davenport began to fade, and Seles and Hingis were retired or soon to retire altogether. Funny coincidence isnt it.

Perhaps this is a sign that Henin needed a weakened field to even have a prime representative of a great player. After all WTA greats historically have begun their primes earlier than 21 years old.

vbranis
05-27-2010, 08:41 PM
Henin's "prime" did not start until the Williams sisters began struggling with injuries, Capriati and Davenport began to fade, and Seles and Hingis were retired or soon to retire altogether. Funny coincidence isnt it.

Perhaps this is a sign that Henin needed a weakened field to even have a prime representative of a great player. After all WTA greats historically have begun their primes earlier than 21 years old.

Navratilova won her 1st Slam at 21, just like Henin. Also, Henin won at least one major from '03 thru '07. Don't tell me that the Williams sisters were injured for that long. The H2H is lopsided because they mostly played in '01-'02 when Henin was still young. Afterwards, Venus' level dropped and she failed to make it to the later rounds often enough to play Henin, which would've most likely evened up the H2H record.

davey25
05-27-2010, 09:31 PM
Navratilova won her 1st Slam at 21, just like Henin. Also, Henin won at least one major from '03 thru '07. Don't tell me that the Williams sisters were injured for that long. The H2H is lopsided because they mostly played in '01-'02 when Henin was still young. Afterwards, Venus' level dropped and she failed to make it to the later rounds often enough to play Henin, which would've most likely evened up the H2H record.

Navratilova was an unusually late bloomer who won 89% of her 18 singles slams after her 25th birthday and was playing on the pro tour as a contender until age 37. There is nothing to suggest Henin is following a similar path.

You call Henin young but she is less than a year younger than Serena, and only 2 years younger than Venus. She isnt much younger than them at all. She simply began to excel more only when others began to fall off.

vbranis
05-27-2010, 09:40 PM
You call Henin young but she is less than a year younger than Serena, and only 2 years younger than Venus. She isnt much younger than them at all. She simply began to excel more only when others began to fall off.

Not true, the Williams sisters were very early bloomers. At only 17, Venus was in her 1st Slam final and Serena already won one!!! Remember, papa Richard predicted that they'd both be out of the game by their mid 20s. Credit to them for staying focused and continuing to win to this day.

Henin is average in this regard, not an early bloomer, nor a late one. The fact that she is 2 years younger than early blooming Venus only adds to my point that the H2H is skewed.

davey25
05-27-2010, 09:47 PM
The Williams sisters were not early bloomers especialy Venus. Venus didnt win her first slam until she was 20 years old. Womens tennis has seen many greats win their first slam as teenagers, in fact most of them. Serena did not win her 2nd slam until she was 20 years old.

Stop making excuses for why Venus owns Henin head to head.

vbranis
05-27-2010, 10:17 PM
Let me put it another way for you. Pre-2003, there is no doubt that Venus was the better and more achieved player. I'm sure you'll agree with this. They played 8 of their 9 matches during that period (meaning before Henin turned 21) and there is no surprise that Venus led the H2H 7-1. Since then, a lot has happened in both their careers. Amazingly, they've only met once more and Henin won. So what does that tell you? I simply can't place a lot of weight on a H2H where all of Venus' wins were against a slamless 19 to 20 year old Henin.

davey25
05-27-2010, 10:54 PM
Fine, discount the head to head. Still 5 Wimbledons to 0, and 7 Wimbledons/U.S Opens to 2, is a huge difference when comparing two 7 slam winners. Like it or not Wimbledon is the most prestigious slam and the U.S Open is next. Arguing otherwise is spitting in the wind of truth. And arguing something like weeks at #1 is a more meaningful differentiating stat than success at the big W and big 2 tournaments in an era Safina and Jankovic have spent substantial time at #1 and that Davenport and Hingis are the leaders of all the greats in #1 stats is futile.

jerriy
05-27-2010, 10:57 PM
It seems most people say Henin is the 2nd best player of this generation after Serena...And damn right they are! And the crackpots who bitterly disagree with that aren't going to alter this widely recognized fact.

Only Venus can do something about it. And doing something about it doesn't mean deserving to be arrested by the fashion police for appearing on a tennis court without a bra and in a see-thru corsetish negligé with an invisible thong underneath.

It's up to her to get her attention back to tennis and grab real titles, i.e. slams & premier mandetory (million plus dollar tournaments) - something which she has not done in years. She failed to take advantage of the recent absence of Juju and Clijsters and Sharapova (unlike the likes of Kuzzy and Adje Ana who grabbed the opportunity that became available without hesitation)

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-27-2010, 11:23 PM
This is coming from a same poster....(something illogical)

The hypocrite rears her thick head again, by claiming the character of players is attacked...this from the well-cited troll who blasts Serena, Nadal and now Venus in every thread you can.


Again, no one should be so easy to expose.

To reiterate:

You are such a proven Henin-defensive, hostile troll, that you will continue to do (in your typically hypocritical fashion) exactly what you claimed you were not back on 5/25:

Originally Posted by TMF
post #88 - 5-25-2010 - 01:02PM - : No one is undermining Venus by the way



...only to follow that easy-to-spot bullsh*t with today's example of yet another of your daily dips into psychotic hatred-ville:

Keep coming after Henin and I will make Venus look worse and worse!!!


So, not only are you a proven habitual liar and hypocrite, but now you are threatening to turn up the level of your admitted trolling.

Is it any wonder no one respects your anti-intellectual voyages into "I-want-to-hurt-players" zone when you have no reasoning skills or grasp of history to even know about that which you stab at on a daily basis.

Is it any wonder Tanya made the correct observation:

As a side note I don't really know why you people continue to feed the troll that is TMF. Her idiocy has been showcased enough in this thread alone (I can only imagine the vapidity present in the rest of her 2500+ posts) and I don't think it offers anything constructive to keep paying her the attention she so clearly desires.

Cogent summary.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-27-2010, 11:35 PM
Like it or not Wimbledon is the most prestigious slam and the U.S Open is next. Arguing otherwise is spitting in the wind of truth.

Obviously. However, the local history-challenged kids in thisn thread believe if they post "The French Open is just as important in a historical sense and holds the same value as Wimbledon"--ad infinitum--it will suddenly become fact (pretty funny), when the kids--told to prove this historic value time and time again, have dodged, lied, flamed and attempted to shift the discussion into the irrelevant, all in order to protect Justine's failure to win you-know-what. This is similar to a certain member who was exposed as not having much of a point when flees from addressing Henin's loss to Bartoli and her stated fear of Venus at Wimbledon.


All so amusing.

Carsomyr
05-27-2010, 11:58 PM
Fine, discount the head to head. Still 5 Wimbledons to 0, and 7 Wimbledons/U.S Opens to 2, is a huge difference when comparing two 7 slam winners. Like it or not Wimbledon is the most prestigious slam and the U.S Open is next. Arguing otherwise is spitting in the wind of truth. And arguing something like weeks at #1 is a more meaningful differentiating stat than success at the big W and big 2 tournaments in an era Safina and Jankovic have spent substantial time at #1 and that Davenport and Hingis are the leaders of all the greats in #1 stats is futile.

Boy, you sure do love to manipulative facts depending on the argument - let's take your signature for example: how is Nadal the best player of this generation when he trails Federer in "prestigious slams" 11 to 1?

davey25
05-28-2010, 12:05 AM
My signature could be easily taken out of context to those who take it too literally and arent astute enough to read between the lines. Basically what I mean is not that Nadal should rate higher than Federer all time. What it does mean is basically how one earth can Federer be the GOAT when he is owned so convincingly head to head by the 2nd greatest player of his own era.

Players like Sampras, Laver, Borg, Gonzales, Budge, Tilden, and on the womens side Graf, Court, Navratilova, Connolly, Lenglen, Wills Moody, and Serena were likewise owned by none of their main rivals when in or close to their primes. Evert and Rosewall while regarded as two of the very greatest players of all time amongst their gender are still essentialy eliminated from serious consideration as "the" GOAT to most people since they were owned by a main rival of their own generation (Evert it was Navratilova during Navratilova's prime year, and Rosewall it was Laver). The same should hold true for Federer, especialy as the player who owns him is not even in the list of GOAT candidates outside of one surface at this moment.

MotherMarjorie
05-28-2010, 12:05 AM
Let me put it another way for you. Pre-2003, there is no doubt that Venus was the better and more achieved player. I'm sure you'll agree with this. They played 8 of their 9 matches during that period (meaning before Henin turned 21) and there is no surprise that Venus led the H2H 7-1. Since then, a lot has happened in both their careers. Amazingly, they've only met once more and Henin won. So what does that tell you? I simply can't place a lot of weight on a H2H where all of Venus' wins were against a slamless 19 to 20 year old Henin.
Vbranis, I applaud your efforts in trying to reason with unstable individuals, but no amount of logic or the overwhelming amount of career statistics which point towards Henin getting the nod will change their mind.

They continue to attempt to isolate Wimbledon as the only Grand Slam tournament which counts historically and we all know that simply is not true. Its 2010, not 1935. After 1968, all major championships took a much different collective importance. Anyone that has tennis knowledge and background understands what I'm saying.

You have Thundervolley and her persistent DRAMA, jumping up and down screaming "hallelujuah" anytime Henin loses, never missing an opportunity to dig at her, as though Justine Henin personally affecting him in some way. Justine Henin has been the biggest threat to team Williams for years, and he hates her for it. Then Davey25, continually stabbing Monica in her back almost two decades after the original occurence. Like Mother Marjorie said, they are "touched individuals" and NOT by an Angel.

Venus Williams hasn't defeated Justine Henin in eight years. ALL of Venus' wins over Justine came before Henin won her first grand slam title. The last time they met in the 2007 US Open Semifinals, Justine beat her in straight sets.

Carsomyr
05-28-2010, 12:09 AM
My signature could be easily taken out of context to those who take it too literally and arent astute enough to read between the lines. Basically what I mean is not that Nadal should rate higher than Federer all time. What it does mean is basically how one earth can Federer be the GOAT when he is owned so convincingly head to head by the 2nd greatest player of his own era.

The point remains: how is he "owned" when he's won 11 times the number of "Slam titles that matter?"

MotherMarjorie
05-28-2010, 12:11 AM
The point remains: how is he "owned" when he's won 11 times the number of "Slam titles that matter?"
The bullshiot is deep, isn't it Carsomyr?

This is the same individual that claims Graf owned Seles in the early '90's.

Isn't it amazing how grand slam victories are "suddenly" less important than H2H, just because it fits Ms. Davey's personal agenda? Oh, and Ms. Davey recently removed other parts of her signature which slammed Henin and Seles.