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View Full Version : The jury of L'Equipe voted Nadal - the best clay court player of the Open Era


CMM
05-24-2010, 02:26 AM
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Google translation
The jury had good looks. Fifteen champions and technicians have long plate Friday night in the offices of L'Equipe to designate the best player on earth in the history of the open era. Two specialists in our daily lives, and Alain Philippe Bouin Deflassieux rounded out the panel with the final choice was not different from that of Internet users, who have also elected Rafael Nadal.
The podium of experts was organized differently, however, with Bjorn Borg and Ivan Lendl behind the Mallorcan, a trio that three jurors were also chosen in this order (Deflassieux A. G. Forget and Sebastien Grosjean). And two of them, Guy Forget and Alain Deflassieux have selected ten players in the final ranking an initial list of thirty-two. Not in order of course, but overall performance is noteworthy. We wanted to give you here the verdict of the Top Ten for the story but also the particular choice of the jury invited by L'Equipe on Monday delivering their thoughts, comments and story of this evening of conviviality studious.

Top 10:
1. Rafael Nadal, 163 pts ; 2. Bjorn Borg, 159 ; 3. Ivan Lendl, 111 ; 4. Mats Wilander, 96 ; 5. Gustavo Kuerten, 87 ; 6. Guillermo Vilas, 80 ; 7. Roger Federer, 61 ; 8. Rod Laver, 41 ; 9. Thomas Muster, 37 ; 10. Ken Rosewall et Sergi Bruguera

The votes of the jury:

Mansour BAHRAMI : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R Nadal ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 M. Wilander ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 S. Bruguera ; 7 R. Federer ; 8 J. Courier ; 9 G. Vilas ; 10 R. Laver.

Pierre BARTHES : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 R. Laver ; 3 B. Borg ; 4 K. Rosewall ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 I. Lendl ; 7 M. Wilander ; 8 S. Bruguera ; 9 A. Agassi ; 10 G. Vilas.

Philippe BOUIN : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 G. Kuerten ; 4 R. Federer ; 5 M. Wilander ; 6 I. Lendl ; 7. G.Vilas ; 8 I. Nastase ; 9 S. Bruguera ; 10. J. Courier

Bob BRETT : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 M. Wilander ; 4 I. Lendl ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 G. Vilas ; 7 R. Federer ; 8 R. Laver ; 9 K. Rosewall ; 10 S. Bruguera.

Alain DEFLASSIEUX : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 R. Federer ; 5 K. Rosewall ; 6 R. Laver ; 7 G. Vilas ; 8 T. Muster ; 9 M. Wilander ; 10 G. Kuerten

Patrice DOMINGUEZ : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 G. Kuerten ; 4 I. Lendl ; 5 G. Vilas ; 6 R. Federer ; 7 R. Laver ; 8 M. Wilander ; 9 I. Nastase ; 10 S. Bruguera.

Guillaume DURAND 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 G. Kuerten ; 4 G. Vilas ; 5 T. Muster ; 6 I. Lendl ; 7 M. Wilander ; 8 I. Nastase ; 9 R. Federer ; 10 R. Laver.

Guy FORGET : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 G. Vilas ; 5 M. Wilander ; 6 K. Rosewall ; 7 R. Laver ; 8 G. Kuerten ; 9 R. Federer ; 10 T. Muster.

Sébastien GROSJEAN : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 G. Vilas ; 5 M. Wilander ; 6 R. Federer ; 7 K. Rosewall ; 8 I. Nastase ; 9. G. Kuerten ; 10 T. Muster.

Patrice HAGELAUER : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 M. Orantes ; 4 T. Muster ; 5 I. Nastase ; 6 S. Bruguera ; 7 G. Kuerten ; 8 M. Wilander ; 9 I. Lendl ; 10 G. Vilas.

Henri LECONTE : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 M. Wilander ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 S. Bruguera ; 7 R. Laver ; 8 T. Muster ; 9 G. Vilas ; 10 R. Federer.

Jean-Paul LOTH : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 G. Vilas ; 4 I. Lendl ; 5 M. Wilander ; 6 G. Kuerten ; 7 K. Rosewall ; 8 I. Nastase ; 9 T. Muster ; 10 R. Federer.

Toni NADAL : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 M. Wilander ; 5 R. Federer ; 6 T. Muster ; 7 I. Nastase ; 8 G. Kuerten ; 9. G. Vilas ; 10 J.C. Ferrero.

Patrick PROISY : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 G. Vilas ; 4 M. Wilander ; 5 I. Lendl ; 6 G. Kuerten ; 7 R. Laver ; 8 T. Muster ; 9 S. Bruguera ; 10 R. Federer.

Fabrice SANTORO : 1 R. Nadal ; 2 B. Borg ; 3 G. Vilas ; 4 R. Federer ; 5 I. Lendl ; 6 M. Wilander ; 7 G. Kuerten ; 8 T. Muster ; 9 R. Laver ; 10. A. Agassi.

Thierry TULASNE : 1 R. Nadal ; 2. B. Borg ; 3 M. Wilander ; 4 G. Vilas ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 I. Lendl ; 7 R. Federer ; 8 T. Muster ; 9 S. Bruguera ; 10 J.C. Ferrero.

Mats WILANDER : 1 B. Borg ; 2 R. Nadal ; 3 I. Lendl ; 4 M. Wilander ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 R. Federer ; 7 R. Laver ; 8 J. Courier ; 9 S. Bruguera ; 10. G. Vilas.



http://www.lequipe.fr/Tennis/breves2010/20100523_205342_le-jury-de-l-equipe-vote-nadal.html

aldeayeah
05-24-2010, 02:32 AM
LOL@Uncle Toni rating Nadal 2nd.

vortex1
05-24-2010, 02:32 AM
Didn't Borg win 6 french opens? I think if Nadal wins FO this year, he'll be clay GOAT for sure.

cucio
05-24-2010, 03:02 AM
Santoro votes like he plays. Surprising, and throwing in a lot of junk. Fed at #4? Friggin' Agassi?

Uncle Toni forgot to include his beloved Rod Laver, that's surprising.

Obvious top 2 is obvious, and suitably close, although I'd still tip it on Borg's side, but that could change in the next couple of years.

Carsomyr
05-24-2010, 04:04 AM
Who is Pierre Barthes? He sounds like a complete clown; Laver 2nd? Agassi even being on the list (sorry Fabrice)?

jerriy
05-24-2010, 04:12 AM
Top 10:
1. Rafael Nadal, 163 pts
2. Bjorn Borg, 159
3. Ivan Lendl, 111
4. Mats Wilander, 96
5. Gustavo Kuerten, 87
6. Guillermo Vilas, 80
7. Roger Federer, 61
8. Rod Laver, 41
9. Thomas Muster, 37
10. Ken Rosewall et Sergi BrugueraExcellent.

Just one more indication that, despite his career slam, Agassi ain't an overall "top ten GOAT" contender as some (almost exclusively internet warriors and/or celebrity worshippers) dare to suggest.

kOaMaster
05-24-2010, 04:26 AM
the topten is realistic.

Hood_Man
05-24-2010, 04:35 AM
It makes sense that Nadal and Borg are in first and second place, separated by only 4 points, and I'm perfectly happy to see Federer at 7th place.

He may not have won a lot of clay tournaments in comparison to some guys on the list but he's reached plenty of finals, and of those he lost (11) he avoided straight set losses in 6 of them.

Plus the eventual French Open victory helps :)

namelessone
05-24-2010, 04:44 AM
LOL@Uncle Toni rating Nadal 2nd.

Tony is a realist,always has been even if he is seen as head of the mallorcan mafia by some paranoid posters around here.

If you wanna talk about LOL'ing,let's talk about Forget. The guy was badmouthing Nadal back in 05(with the "we don't need construction workers on our courts" comment) but now he votes him as the nr.1 CC in history. What a freaking joker.

In my mind Rafa needs 1-2 FO's and he is right up there with Borg. His winning percentage alone on this surface is crazy and if he would have taken better care of himself in the past it could have been even better:shock:

The funny thing about this whole clay thing is that this wasn't even Nadal's fav surface as a teenager.

kishnabe
05-24-2010, 05:40 AM
Why do they make these assumptions that Nadal is the greatest clay courter of the open era...what if a new guy came up and racked every clay event at least 10 times. Then the new guy is the greatest clay courter. I hope the title isn't forever...as in it could be taken away by another player.

Congratz on him for getting it...but people can't say for sure Federer is the G.O.A.T forever and Nadal is the best clay courter of the open era. In the future hope that changes!

timnz
05-24-2010, 05:49 AM
Interesting that Wilander rates Lendl above himself. I'm glad he doesn't have false humility though and gives himself a high ranking of 4. He deserves it.

I would rank Lendl only above Wilander on Clay by the narrowest of margins and I am a Lendl fan.

Rippy
05-24-2010, 09:07 AM
Why do they make these assumptions that Nadal is the greatest clay courter of the open era...what if a new guy came up and racked every clay event at least 10 times. Then the new guy is the greatest clay courter. I hope the title isn't forever...as in it could be taken away by another player.

Congratz on him for getting it...but people can't say for sure Federer is the G.O.A.T forever and Nadal is the best clay courter of the open era. In the future hope that changes!

They mean the greatest so far, surely? :-|

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-24-2010, 09:16 AM
Excellent.

Just one more indication that, despite his career slam, Agassi ain't an overall "top ten GOAT" contender as some (almost exclusively internet warriors and/or celebrity worshippers) dare to suggest.

Quoted for truth.

sureshs
05-24-2010, 09:16 AM
It is 1. Nadal 2. Federer

These guys would blow away the oldies

zagor
05-24-2010, 09:22 AM
It is 1. Nadal 2. Federer

These guys would blow away the oldies

Yeah,Federer sure blew away Kuerten in 2004 FO.

sureshs
05-24-2010, 09:24 AM
Yeah,Federer sure blew away Kuerten in 2004 FO.

He was just coming into his own then

zagor
05-24-2010, 09:26 AM
He was just coming into his own then

He won 3 slams that year,that's already domination,hardly coming into his own.

sureshs
05-24-2010, 09:27 AM
Borg didn't even have proper technique on his BH. He has actually improved after retirement.

jean pierre
05-24-2010, 09:59 AM
Vilas is better than Kuerten !

MotherMarjorie
05-24-2010, 10:22 AM
Seems like its a given Nadal will be the best on clay during the Open Era.

tahiti
05-24-2010, 11:35 AM
Nice article, thanks for posting. I'm sure give Rafa a few more years on clay and he'll be way out above Borg.

roysid
05-24-2010, 10:37 PM
Mats Wilander and Toni Nadal may think that he is No. 3, his nephew is No. 1 but won't declare it.

By the time Nadal finishes he should be way above Borg.

sh@de
05-24-2010, 11:01 PM
Good for Nadal. I think he deserves it. Obviously it's close between him and Borg, but seriously, the clay masters sweep and 4 RG in a row... and the way he just dominates his opponents on clay, I'm really not surprised Nadal wins this vote.

Vamos!

World Beater
05-24-2010, 11:35 PM
toni is just being respectful to old legends.

in his his head, he might be thinking sth else though.

World Beater
05-24-2010, 11:35 PM
funny to see federer so high.

the "informed" former player posters that consistently trash his clay game.

big bang
05-24-2010, 11:37 PM
of course Nadal is the best claycourter ever! some of the ppl on this board rank Borg above him because of FO titles needs to take a look at both players games and compare them. Nadals game is superior and in time he will win more FO than Borg did!! Nadal has been the best claycourter ever for years, not in terms of achievements but level of play!

World Beater
05-24-2010, 11:38 PM
i wonder hypothetically (not that it will happen of course)...

if federer actually meets nadal in a few more RG finals and actually wins one or two..

will that make nadal's status on clay higher or lower?

its competition vs. domination argument.

dmt
05-24-2010, 11:50 PM
congradulations to Rafa, he deserves it. In a few years he may get to 6 to surpass Borg. Those two are clearly the two best ones though.

zagor
05-25-2010, 02:23 AM
Vilas is better than Kuerten !

How about no? Vilas was Borg's plaything on clay even more than Fed is Nadal's and I sincerely doubt Guga would be dominated by anyone on clay.

Believe me both Borg and Nadal would have a lot more to fear from an on fire Guga than Vilas who I find to be overrated on clay personally.

Not to mention that Guga won 3 FOs compared to Vilas's one(and yes I know he also won USO on green clay over Connors).

joeri888
05-25-2010, 03:00 AM
Nadal might achieve more than Borg, his level of play is obviously higher (even the guy's ranked 50 today are stronger quicker en better built than Borg) but until he wins 6 FO's, I don't see why he's better than Bjorn Borg. 6 is very possible, but IF he loses this year it suddenly looks far far away. It's all about the Slams baby.

P_Agony
05-25-2010, 03:03 AM
Agree, Nadal is the best on clay.

They should make one for the best hard courter as well. And grass.

djokovicgonzalez2010
05-25-2010, 03:33 AM
LOL Toni knows Borg was best, yet Nadal wins?
Memory loss?
Nadal will probably be clay GOAT, but he's not yet

babbette
05-25-2010, 03:52 AM
At the beginning of the clip you can see Rafa's reaction to this poll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWZ1pJbtPBA

Warning:annoying voice over in French.

If anyone is interested here is part 1 of this interview. Nothing too new. And there's an interview with Sod
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u14aavS8r2I

mtr1
05-25-2010, 04:10 AM
At the moment, Borg > Nadal on clay, but if Nadal wins this years French with the same domination as 2008, he overtakes Borg. I don't think that Nadal will ever overtake Borg in the GOAT discussion though, it's going to take something unbelievable for someone to break into the Federer, Laver, Sampras, Borg group.

bolo
05-25-2010, 05:48 AM
At the beginning of the clip you can see Rafa's reaction to this poll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWZ1pJbtPBA

Warning:annoying voice over in French.

If anyone is interested here is part 1 of this interview. Nothing too new. And there's an interview with Sod
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u14aavS8r2I

It was his WTF are you getting me into now look. :)

nadal era
05-29-2010, 01:57 AM
im a rafa fan but if he cant win this year, he is not even in top 5 in clay goat in my book

dmt
05-29-2010, 04:02 AM
im a rafa fan but if he cant win this year, he is not even in top 5 in clay goat in my book

are u kidding me? He has already secured his place in the top 5 with 4 fo titles.

dh003i
05-29-2010, 04:17 AM
He won 3 slams that year,that's already domination,hardly coming into his own.

True, but his best on clay came after 2004. Btw, he didn't get blown away by Kuerten either, lost 6-4 6-4 6-4, fairly tight sets.

But Kuerten is rated as a better claycourt player than Federer.

ViscaB
05-29-2010, 04:26 AM
True, but his best on clay came after 2004. Btw, he didn't get blown away by Kuerten either, lost 6-4 6-4 6-4, fairly tight sets.

But Kuerten is rated as a better claycourt player than Federer.

I wouldn't call Kuerten a better claycourter. If it wouldn't have been for Rafa Federer would have tied in terms of RG with him already.

onyxrose81
05-29-2010, 04:26 AM
im a rafa fan but if he cant win this year, he is not even in top 5 in clay goat in my book

Err...what?

ViscaB
05-29-2010, 04:28 AM
Err...what?

Doesn't even deserve an answer really.

nadal era
06-08-2010, 05:45 AM
Rafaaaaaa!

TheNatural
06-08-2010, 06:09 AM
At the moment, Borg > Nadal on clay, but if Nadal wins this years French with the same domination as 2008, he overtakes Borg. I don't think that Nadal will ever overtake Borg in the GOAT discussion though, it's going to take something unbelievable for someone to break into the Federer, Laver, Sampras, Borg group.

mission accomplished. :)

nadal era
06-08-2010, 06:47 AM
mission accomplished. :)

nadal didnt dominate 2010 FO like he dominated 2008 FO.
even though he won both tournaments without losing a set,

in 2008 FO nadal lost only 41 games.
in 2010 FO he lost 71 games.

in 2008 FO he won 3 bagel sets.
in 2010 FO he won no bagel sets.

and in the 2008 FO final, he murdered federer like a red headed step child!

jack_kramer
04-04-2011, 03:51 PM
I would say:

1. nadal
2. borg
.
.
.
.
.
3. wilander
4. lendl
5. kuerten
6. muster
7. vilas
8. brugeura
9. courier
10. agassi

TheTruth
04-04-2011, 04:02 PM
LOL@Uncle Toni rating Nadal 2nd.

That was funny, but he'd look like a fool voting for his nephew.

However, if things got tight...

Dilettante
04-04-2011, 04:09 PM
It's Nadal/Borg or Borg/Nadal and then a big gap and then the rest. I think everyone pretty much agree in that.

kishnabe
04-04-2011, 06:34 PM
I would say:

1. nadal
2. borg
.
.
.
.
.
3. wilander
4. lendl
5. kuerten
6. muster
7. vilas
8. brugeura
9. courier
10. agassi

I agree with list but I'd put Lendl above Willander because he was a better claycourter in my opinion. Also Rosewall should be on the list.

Manus Domini
04-04-2011, 07:08 PM
1} Rosewall
2} Borg

tenis1
04-04-2011, 07:31 PM
No. Until Nadal wins 6 FOs, Borg is still the CGOAT.

powerangle
04-04-2011, 07:41 PM
Yup, Nadal can launch himself to the top of this list if he has another stellar clay court season this year (RG being the main necessity, and any other MS tournament to further support his position).

jack_kramer
04-04-2011, 08:10 PM
I agree with list but I'd put Lendl above Willander because he was a better claycourter in my opinion. Also Rosewall should be on the list.

It was a close call but I gave the edge to Wilander because he seemed more of a natural on clay and won RG at 17 y.o. (he beat Lendl en route in the 4th rd).
Lendl suffered another embarrassing loss to a 17 y.o. Michael Chang who was suffering from severe leg cramps but still managed to outwit and psychologically own him in '89
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeVVp2h7DB4 :oops:

jean pierre
04-04-2011, 11:47 PM
I would say:

1. nadal
2. borg
.
.
.
.
.
3. wilander
4. lendl
5. kuerten
6. muster
7. vilas
8. brugeura
9. courier
10. agassi


Kuerten and Muster before Vilas ??

jack_kramer
04-05-2011, 12:37 AM
Kuerten and Muster before Vilas ??

Vilas won his only RG title in '77 because Borg couldn't play that year due to World Team Tennis contract. He was badly exposed the following year with a 6-1, 6-1, 6-3 drubbing at the hands of Borg. I also took depth of field into account.

Ralph
04-05-2011, 12:41 AM
Seems like its a given Nadal will be the best on clay during the Open Era.

Yes, it is. Deserved too, his ability on this surface is phenomenal.

TennisFan3
04-05-2011, 12:55 AM
The funny thing about this whole clay thing is that this wasn't even Nadal's fav surface as a teenager.

Nadal started out as an offensive player, so that's hardly surprising.

To this day, I wonder why Nadal switched from his teenage game, where he was half the size he is now, but still hit 95 mph groundies with ease. The reverse swing buggy whip and the spin has F**ed his game on hard courts.

Xemi666
04-05-2011, 02:26 AM
Yup, Nadal can launch himself to the top of this list if he has another stellar clay court season this year (RG being the main necessity, and any other MS tournament to further support his position).

Nadal dosn't need more clay masters (even though he'll probably win mroe" to support anything, he already has more of the important non-FO clay court titles than anyone else, including Borg.

Xemi666
04-05-2011, 02:28 AM
Vilas won his only RG title in '77 because Borg couldn't play that year due to World Team Tennis contract. He was badly exposed the following year with a 6-1, 6-1, 6-3 drubbing at the hands of Borg. I also took depth of field into account.

You don't think Muster would be as badly owned by Borg and Nadal on clay? Federer is an excellent claycourter too and he was destroyed by Nadal in 2008, but that's just because Nadal is so good, not a demerit in Federer's part. I think the same aplies to Vilas, Borg and Nadal are just monsters on clay.

jack_kramer
04-05-2011, 02:36 AM
You don't think Muster would be as badly owned by Borg and Nadal on clay? Federer is an excellent claycourter too and he was destroyed by Nadal in 2008, but that's just because Nadal is so good, not a demerit in Federer's part. I think the same aplies to Vilas, Borg and Nadal are just monsters on clay.

Muster in his prime probably wouldn't lose 6-1, 6-1, 6-3 to Nadal. That's just my guess. Plus, he was a lefty too.

Federer missed my top 10 list at #11.

Xemi666
04-05-2011, 03:30 AM
Muster in his prime probably wouldn't lose 6-1, 6-1, 6-3 to Nadal. That's just my guess. Plus, he was a lefty too.

Federer missed my top 10 list at #11.

Do you think Federer was in his prime in 2008 or already a bit past his prime?

Who do you consider a better claycourter, Federer or Muster? Federer has 3 FO finals in addition to his FO title. Muster has only 1 FO and no additional finals. And in Masters titles they're similar, 4 to 5 I believe?

I think Muster (or any player for that matter, except Borg) would get destroyed on clay by 2008 Nadal.

Tennis sensation
04-05-2011, 03:35 AM
Uncle Toni rated Rafa second.

cucio
04-05-2011, 03:40 AM
Federer missed my top 10 list at #11.

Absolutely, Federer is a joke compared to all-time clay masters (incidentally American) Courier and Agassi.

Tennis sensation
04-05-2011, 03:40 AM
How could they miss the Current TW GOAT of GOATs and currently the best player of the entire Milky Way- Novak Djokovic :wink:

aldeayeah
04-05-2011, 03:43 AM
That was funny, but he'd look like a fool voting for his nephew.

However, if things got tight...

I understand why he did it, but still find it funny :P

CMM
04-05-2011, 04:08 AM
When the poll was made Rafa only had 4 RG titles.

I still can't believe Forget voted for Rafa. :neutral:

jean pierre
04-05-2011, 05:02 AM
Vilas won his only RG title in '77 because Borg couldn't play that year due to World Team Tennis contract. He was badly exposed the following year with a 6-1, 6-1, 6-3 drubbing at the hands of Borg. I also took depth of field into account.

Vilas won 1 FO and 1 USO on clay + 3 finals ine FO + won all the big tournaments on clay (Monte-Carlo, Rome, Madrid). I think he's much better than Muster and Kuerten.

dlk
04-05-2011, 05:07 AM
Do you think Federer was in his prime in 2008 or already a bit past his prime?

Who do you consider a better claycourter, Federer or Muster? Federer has 3 FO finals in addition to his FO title. Muster has only 1 FO and no additional finals. And in Masters titles they're similar, 4 to 5 I believe?

I think Muster (or any player for that matter, except Borg) would get destroyed on clay by 2008 Nadal.

Yeah, surprised Fed is not ahead of Muster with the stats you provided.

tennis_pro
04-05-2011, 05:25 AM
cant vote for particular players with the idea of what they woudlve achieved if some factors were different.

1) Villas would've won 0 French Opens if it wasn't for Borg's absence in 1977
2) Federer would've won at least 2 more French Opens if it wasn't for Nadal playing in the same era


Btw why is Rosewall not in the conversation? He was the absolute best clay courter for 10 years (even the great Laver couldn't touch him)! It's double standards for me, if we're voting based on achievements only (disregarding the technology, training etc.) Rosewall is up there with Borg and Nadal or even higher. If we're NOT considering racquet technology, then it's Nadal hands down, Federer and Kuerten come next and the rest is rubbish.

tennis_pro
04-05-2011, 05:27 AM
Yeah,Federer sure blew away Kuerten in 2004 FO.

You can't say because Federer was in his prime he was supposed to win. Remember what happened in 2002 Hamburg? Yes, not only Federer won but bageled Kuerten ON CLAY. Mind you, Federer was still far from what was to come and Kuerten was the THEN French Open champion. It doesn't go one way or another.

jean pierre
04-05-2011, 06:49 AM
cant vote for particular players with the idea of what they woudlve achieved if some factors were different.

1) Villas would've won 0 French Opens if it wasn't for Borg's absence in 1977
2) Federer would've won at least 2 more French Opens if it wasn't for Nadal playing in the same era


Btw why is Rosewall not in the conversation? He was the absolute best clay courter for 10 years (even the great Laver couldn't touch him)! It's double standards for me, if we're voting based on achievements only (disregarding the technology, training etc.) Rosewall is up there with Borg and Nadal or even higher. If we're NOT considering racquet technology, then it's Nadal hands down, Federer and Kuerten come next and the rest is rubbish.

1) Who knows ? Maybe Vilas beats Borg in 1977. Tennis is not an exact science. And if history was different, maybe Vilas lost in 1977 and won in 1982 ! And maybe, if Vilas wasn't sick during the French in 1980, he would have beaten Borg (he beated him a few days before un Dusseldorf) !

NamRanger
04-05-2011, 06:57 AM
1) Who knows ? Maybe Vilas beats Borg in 1977. Tennis is not an exact science. And if history was different, maybe Vilas lost in 1977 and won in 1982 ! And maybe, if Vilas wasn't sick during the French in 1980, he would have beaten Borg (he beated him a few days before un Dusseldorf) !



No, Vilas was basically a lesser version of Borg who didn't have the variety to beat Borg on clay like a Panatta, who was clearly extremely talented in many aspects, much more than Vilas. Panatta had the ability to close the net, play power, and defense when he was on, not to mention his solid serving ability. Basically when Panatta was on he was almost unplayable (similar to Nastase).

jean pierre
04-05-2011, 09:00 AM
No, Vilas was basically a lesser version of Borg who didn't have the variety to beat Borg on clay like a Panatta, who was clearly extremely talented in many aspects, much more than Vilas. Panatta had the ability to close the net, play power, and defense when he was on, not to mention his solid serving ability. Basically when Panatta was on he was almost unplayable (similar to Nastase).

OK, but head to head Vilas / Panatta is 7-2 for Vilas.

Sentinel
04-05-2011, 09:06 AM
Uncle Toni rated Rafa second.
LOL, We can forgive him for being biased in favor of his nephew.

Tennis sensation
04-05-2011, 10:13 AM
LOL, We can forgive him for being biased in favor of his nephew.

So Senti, on a serious note, don't you think Djokovic should have been given the Top spot because of the fabulous HC reign he has had this year. :)

PSNELKE
04-05-2011, 10:21 AM
I think after this years Roland Garros it will be obvious who the greatest clay courter is.
And itīs even more than likely that heīll win another one or two.

Povl Carstensen
04-05-2011, 10:33 AM
That Federer ranks so high in his least favourite surface underlines his status as overall goat.

Tennis sensation
04-05-2011, 10:35 AM
I think after this years Roland Garros it will be obvious who the greatest clay courter is.
And itīs even more than likely that heīll win another one or two.

What if Almagro or Ferrer win FO this year? Will he become the Greatest Clay courter of all time?

PSNELKE
04-05-2011, 10:44 AM
What if Almagro or Ferrer win FO this year? Will he become the Greatest Clay courter of all time?

Sure, since Almugro and Ferrer already have 5 Roland Garros titles, 13 masters titles in their bags.

The only competitor for that award would be Borg also with 5 Roland Garros titles.
but with another title there I donīt think thereīs any doubt about him beeing the Greatest CCourter of all time.
Sure, someone else could win there this year, but Iīm pretty sure he will win it this year again.

Pozarevacka
04-05-2011, 11:21 AM
You guys do understand L'Equipe is just a newspaper. It's like if I told you the New York Times selected Ralph messiah to all of humankind, does that really hold much meaning?

PSNELKE
04-05-2011, 11:24 AM
You guys do understand L'Equipe is just a newspaper. It's like if I told you the New York Times selected Ralph messiah to all of humankind, does that really hold much meaning?

The comments on here are based on achievements and facts.
Nobody gives a crap about that gutter press.

borg number one
04-05-2011, 12:08 PM
Sure, since Almugro and Ferrer already have 5 Roland Garros titles, 13 masters titles in their bags.

The only competitor for that award would be Borg also with 5 Roland Garros titles.
but with another title there I donīt think thereīs any doubt about him beeing the Greatest CCourter of all time.
Sure, someone else could win there this year, but Iīm pretty sure he will win it this year again.

Borg has a total of six French Open titles, won between 1974-1981. Many consider Rosewall, Borg, and now Nadal to be the greatest clay courters ever. I do agree that Nadal will remain competitive at Roland Garros for the next several years.

Sentinel
04-05-2011, 09:17 PM
You guys do understand L'Equipe is just a newspaper. It's like if I told you the New York Times selected Ralph messiah to all of humankind, does that really hold much meaning?
Yes, I would finally begin to take notice of Rafa's saintly qualities. I would put aside my pathological hatred for the superb Spaniard and become his biggest fan. I would root out all Fed fans from this forum and initiate a reign of tyranny and terror so that Federer or Novak's names are never again uttered here.

PSNELKE
04-06-2011, 03:14 AM
Borg has a total of six French Open titles, won between 1974-1981. Many consider Rosewall, Borg, and now Nadal to be the greatest clay courters ever. I do agree that Nadal will remain competitive at Roland Garros for the next several years.

Damn, forgot about the 1981 one.
Yeah your right, but considering Ralph is still veery young so I think it should be possible to win even more than 6 titles at the FO and a few more masters titles.
I think at the end of his career he should be named the "best clay court player of all times".

Borg retired at a young age of 26 and would sure have one or two titles more there but I think Ralphīs succes is a little superior to Borgīs.

I donīt get why Roswell is considered as one of the best clay courterīs since he played something like a milion years on the senior tour?
And I donīt remember any true rival except of Pancho Gonzalez and maybe Laver who wasnīt really that good on clay but still managed to win 2 titles at the FO.

mcr619619
04-06-2011, 04:13 AM
LOL at uncle Toni....his Rafa at 2nd?? ...haha..

well, Nadal is the best clay court player...he's game really suits clay..and his footwork in clay is awesome....im no Nadal fan, Im a roger fan..

mcr619619
04-06-2011, 04:18 AM
and oh...Roger is at 7, though he only have 1 FO and 3 times runner up, a number of ATP clay court 1000 series..if there's no Nadal, Roger could be 3rd or the 4th best Clay Courter...Titles really matter

0d1n
04-06-2011, 05:22 AM
Absolutely, Federer is a joke compared to all-time clay masters (incidentally American) Courier and Agassi.

Agassi...bwhahahahhahaha :rolleyes:

jackson vile
04-06-2011, 10:38 AM
Borg has a total of six French Open titles, won between 1974-1981. Many consider Rosewall, Borg, and now Nadal to be the greatest clay courters ever. I do agree that Nadal will remain competitive at Roland Garros for the next several years.

Simply amazing what Borg was able to achieve.

illuminati
06-12-2011, 03:24 AM
i think this debate if finally over.

nadal is now officially the clay GOAT.

Sentinel
06-12-2011, 03:59 AM
*cough* Noel *cough*

2011 Head to head , har har de har.

CMM
03-22-2012, 05:33 AM
LOL at uncle Toni....his Rafa at 2nd?? ...haha..

Apparently he thinks 6 are not enough and has to win another RG title in order to be proclaimed clay goat. :roll:

Toni Nadal: “Si Rafael gana Roland Garros será el mejor de la historia en tierra”

brickner_damage
03-22-2012, 06:01 AM
Why do they make these assumptions that Nadal is the greatest clay courter of the open era...what if a new guy came up and racked every clay event at least 10 times. Then the new guy is the greatest clay courter. I hope the title isn't forever...as in it could be taken away by another player.

Congratz on him for getting it...but people can't say for sure Federer is the G.O.A.T forever and Nadal is the best clay courter of the open era. In the future hope that changes!

Nadal has a shot at that, we'll see.

jackson vile
03-22-2012, 09:49 AM
Apparently he thinks 6 are not enough and has to win another RG title in order to be proclaimed clay goat. :roll:

At least that way it will be 100% indisputable.

phnx90
03-22-2012, 10:08 AM
It makes sense that Nadal and Borg are in first and second place, separated by only 4 points, and I'm perfectly happy to see Federer at 7th place.

He may not have won a lot of clay tournaments in comparison to some guys on the list but he's reached plenty of finals, and of those he lost (11) he avoided straight set losses in 6 of them.

Plus the eventual French Open victory helps :)
It all boiled down to Nadal for Fed. With Rafa out of the way, Fed would've pretty much won all the finals he got to and become the greatest clay courter and the GOAT.

Good thing there's Rafa to keep it interesting! :troll:

dudeski
03-22-2012, 10:22 AM
Where is Sampras on that list?

brickner_damage
03-22-2012, 04:09 PM
It all boiled down to Nadal for Fed. With Rafa out of the way, Fed would've pretty much won all the finals he got to and become the greatest clay courter and the GOAT.

Good thing there's Rafa to keep it interesting! :troll:

I wonder what would have happened if all those clay-court specialists of the 90s were in the 2000s. Now THAT would be interesting. I think Nadal is better than all of them including Guga, Moya and Muster. But I suspect Federer would have some trouble. Sampras sure did.

snowpuppy
03-22-2012, 09:29 PM
I wonder what would have happened if all those clay-court specialists of the 90s were in the 2000s. Now THAT would be interesting. I think Nadal is better than all of them including Guga, Moya and Muster. But I suspect Federer would have some trouble. Sampras sure did.

No denying Nadal is above those guys. But don't make them out to be chumps. They will give nadalvery bit of trouble they would have to federer. Rafa won't be sweeping clay seasons like taking a walk in the park that's for sure.

brickner_damage
03-22-2012, 09:33 PM
Likewise, I wonder which clay suits Nadal more, 90s or current..

Colin
03-23-2012, 03:31 AM
Apparently he thinks 6 are not enough and has to win another RG title in order to be proclaimed clay goat. :roll:

It's still better than Rafa himself assessing his place in the clay landscape with characteristic humility — no doubt, he would assert, he lands somewhere between Serbia Open champ Sam Querrey and Estroril finalist Frederico Gil. :shock:

zagor
03-23-2012, 04:10 AM
At least that way it will be 100% indisputable.

Why? Because the slam count is the most important statistic? What if Nadal benefited from a weak CC era?

FedererDropShot
03-23-2012, 04:17 AM
Novak > Nadal on clay courts nowadays... in my opinion....
As long as Novak doesn't face Federer (who is his worst nightmare at the French Open e.g. 2011 French Semis) then I'd say he is well on his way to completing the career grand slam...
Novak isn't specifically a clay specialist like Nadal but I think he probably is now able to beat Nadal consistently on clay...

joeri888
03-23-2012, 04:35 AM
Why? Because the slam count is the most important statistic? What if Nadal benefited from a weak CC era?

this.

16grandslams

Sartorius
03-23-2012, 04:50 AM
I doubt there has been a better match up in history between a player and a particular surface. Maybe Sampras and grass... Slams are obviously the most important titles in the game and competitive tennis is about titles. Still, Nadal's game is tailored for clay; even stripped from his titles and wins, the tennis he plays on clay is unmatched in my opinion. Borg is ahead of my time but one can still watch his matches, and I think Nadal is already ahead of him, at the very least he's not inferior.

brickner_damage
03-23-2012, 07:18 AM
Why? Because the slam count is the most important statistic? What if Nadal benefited from a weak CC era?

If 16 slams is good enough for Federer.....in not a strong grass era.

TennisAficionado
03-23-2012, 11:18 AM
"Thierry TULASNE : 1 R. Nadal ; 2. B. Borg ; 3 M. Wilander ; 4 G. Vilas ; 5 G. Kuerten ; 6 I. Lendl ; 7 R. Federer ; 8 T. Muster ; 9 S. Bruguera ; 10 J.C. Ferrero."

I like Theierry Tulasne's answer most, not least because he was the only one to include Ferrero. Ferrero at his best was a devastating clay court player. Agassi can attest to that because he found no answer to him on several occasions on clay. And Agassi has got two mentions. But they both won one Roland Garros. I agree Kuerten also was one of the greatest clay court players, so to Bruuera.