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View Full Version : Is nadals h2h domination of fed purely down to him playing as a lefty?


Sentinel
05-27-2010, 02:39 AM
What else ? Anyone with his head glued on straight knows that.

But you never know what some bitter Nadal fans can come out with :-)

Carsomyr
05-27-2010, 02:44 AM
I'm lost. It says this thread was started by HAL9001 but Sentinel's is the only post I can see. Trippy.

Sentinel
05-27-2010, 02:46 AM
Yup when i came in, i saw no original post. Seemed a little strange. I assure you, i don't start such intelligent threads.

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 02:52 AM
ha ha. browser crashed in midedle of thread creation which explains the unusual format.


So you think its only down to him playing lefty then? no other factors involved?

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 03:00 AM
so in a nutshell, you think its purely due to his ability to smash high spinney backhands to feds forehand?

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 03:09 AM
Yup when i came in, i saw no original post. Seemed a little strange. I assure you, i don't start such intelligent threads.

is there something wrong with the question in your opinion then?

aldeayeah
05-27-2010, 03:18 AM
The claim of this thread is an insult to Federer.

Just like a righty facing a leftie has weak points, a lefty facing a righty has the same, symmetrical weak points. And Federer is certainly able to exploit them.

Nadal's merit is not that he uses his lefty advantages against Federer. It is that he covers up for his weak points better than anyone else.

The only real, asymmetrical advantage lefties have is getting to serve most breakpoints from their better side (the ad court).

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 03:48 AM
The claim of this thread is an insult to Federer.

Just like a righty facing a leftie has weak points, a lefty facing a righty has the same, symmetrical weak points. And Federer is certainly able to exploit them.

Nadal's merit is not that he uses his lefty advantages against Federer. It is that he covers up for his weak points better than anyone else.

The only real, asymmetrical advantage lefties have is getting to serve most breakpoints from their better side (the ad court).

im trying to establish if the main consensus is that nadals forehand to feds backhand is the sole reason for his success.
it would seem that a large number of posters believe that this is the case

coyfish
05-27-2010, 04:07 AM
No I don't think you can put it so simplistically. Its definitely the biggest weapon but Nadal is a nightmare for Fed in almost every aspect.

dropshot winner
05-27-2010, 04:10 AM
To a big extent yes, but it's also about Nadal's amazing movement and mental strenght.

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 04:10 AM
No I don't think you can put it so simplistically. Its definitely the biggest weapon but Nadal is a nightmare for Fed in almost every aspect.

well that is an interesting viewpoint and one that differs from a number of posts near the top of the thread.

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 04:11 AM
To a big extent yes, but it's also about Nadal's amazing movement and mental strenght.

ok...so could you envision him having the same success v fed if he played right handed?

piece
05-27-2010, 04:23 AM
Of course it's not purely because Nadal is a lefty. But it's not purely because fed is 'scared of the only player to ever stand up to him', as alot of people on this forum put it. Nadal is obviously a bad matchup for Federer, as well as being a fantastic player in his own right. So the first few times Federer played Nadal he was frustrated by the matchup and this eventually resulted in Nadal getting into his head. Subsequent matches have been affected dramatically by Fed's mental weakness at key moments, and it's tough for Federer to ever get over this block by beating Nadal because the matchup issue remains, making Fed's new found confidence eventually wane again. So both factors are big contributors.

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 04:24 AM
Of course it's not purely because Nadal is a lefty. But it's not purely because fed is 'scared of the only player to ever stand up to him', as alot of people on this forum put it. Nadal is obviously a bad matchup for Federer, as well as being a fantastic player in his own right. So the first few times Federer played Nadal he was frustrated by the matchup and this eventually resulted in Nadal getting into his head. Subsequent matches have been affected dramatically by Fed's mental weakness at key moments, and it's tough for Federer to ever get over this block by beating Nadal because the matchup issue remains, making Fed's new found confidence eventually wane again. So both factors are big contributors.

Do you imagine the same results if nadal was playing right handed?

djokovicgonzalez2010
05-27-2010, 04:32 AM
well.... it has probably won him some of the closer ones, but, no, that style of player kills fed in general (ferrero owned fed early on)

piece
05-27-2010, 04:34 AM
Do you imagine the same results if nadal was playing right handed?

No. They'd be dramatically different, as his playing right handed would probably affect the mental factor as well. If Nadal plays right handed, Federer avoids the biggest technical hurdle that Nadal can throw at him (high topspin to 1hbh), consequently he likely never develops a mental block against Nadal. So Nadal loses his technical advantage along with his mental advantage. In this case, Federer probably has a better h2h against Nadal than the one Nadal enjoys against Federer in reality. But then again, Nadal is an awesome player regardless, so I doubt Federer would find Nadal to be a regularly easy victory in this counterfactual world.

piece
05-27-2010, 04:37 AM
well.... it has probably won him some of the closer ones, but, no, that style of player kills fed in general (ferrero owned fed early on)

Players owning pre-prime Fed is usually a poor indicator of how they'd do against prime Fed. See Hewitt and Nalbandian.

H2H with Ferrero v Pre-prime Federer is only 3-2 in favour of Ferrero anyway.

babbette
05-27-2010, 04:41 AM
Can anyone list the lefties Roger has played against including the results? (not including rafa)

piece
05-27-2010, 04:43 AM
Can anyone list the lefties Roger has played against including the results? (not including rafa)

Someone wrote it was 59-10 earlier today. Can't remember who or which thread though.

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 04:51 AM
No. They'd be dramatically different, as his playing right handed would probably affect the mental factor as well. If Nadal plays right handed, Federer avoids the biggest technical hurdle that Nadal can throw at him (high topspin to 1hbh), consequently he likely never develops a mental block against Nadal. So Nadal loses his technical advantage along with his mental advantage. In this case, Federer probably has a better h2h against Nadal than the one Nadal enjoys against Federer in reality. But then again, Nadal is an awesome player regardless, so I doubt Federer would find Nadal to be a regularly easy victory in this counterfactual world.

So are you saying that he would be unable to produce the same amount od spin if he played right handed?

Rippy
05-27-2010, 04:54 AM
So are you saying that he would be unable to produce the same amount od spin if he played right handed?

He wouldn't be able to direct his topspin forehand to Fed's backhand as consistently.

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 05:03 AM
He wouldn't be able to direct his topspin forehand to Fed's backhand as consistently.

playing right handed, assuming he still had a good 2 hand backhand (ok it probably wouldnt be as good as his lefty 2h bh),could he not still hit high bouncers to feds 1h backhand?

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 05:04 AM
this has all been very interesting so far with the varying opinions posted.

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 05:11 AM
yes very interesting

caulcano
05-27-2010, 05:13 AM
im trying to establish if the main consensus is that nadals forehand to feds backhand is the sole reason for his success.
it would seem that a large number of posters believe that this is the case

If Federer & Nadal reach the FO final then Federer probably wouldn't have faced a leftie.

Playing a leftie is always going to be more difficult than playing a righty for anyone because there are fewer of them. Therefore the only experience you'd have is practicing against a leftie.

HAL9001
05-27-2010, 07:31 AM
bump.........

ViscaB
05-27-2010, 08:14 AM
So true. And Federer is not the world's number 1 woman because he's a man.

Sentinel
05-27-2010, 09:23 AM
is there something wrong with the question in your opinion then?
Of course not.

I think the lefty business is one factor. Other lefties have tried to exploit his backhand, but not succeeded for at least 2 reasons. RN's topspin is another factor. Right handed folks are unable to generate that spin and pace to his backhand.

Then there is the rest of his (Nadal's) game which backs up his assault on Roger's backhand. His athleticism and his mental strength, too.

Even otherwise, one does not see Roger attacking with his backhand much even against weaker players. He plays pretty safe, especially on serve returns. Which is why several posters here complain that almost every one hander has a better backhand, although their record is poor.

RF runs around the BH a lot nowadays, leaving the court open. That's like a free lunch for Rafa.

Jchurch
05-27-2010, 09:42 AM
I just don't see Nadal being as effective matching up forehand to forehand with Federer. A huge part of Nadal's game is exploiting his backhand and exploiting Federer's return game with his lefty spin.

jerriy
05-27-2010, 09:44 AM
I still think Fed would lost to Nadal if he was a righthander (with all things being equal)

Everybody seem to focus of Nadal's forehand versus Feds BH but don't the other axis: Feds forehand has a bigger advantage NOW the same way Nadal's current left hander has.

In other words Fed is losing NOW despite his forehand having a bigger advantage than than it would have been if Nadal was a righthander.

So Fed facing a right handed Nadal would still be a shaky Fed imo.

jerriy
05-27-2010, 09:45 AM
Why can't I edit my posts?

Rippy
05-27-2010, 09:48 AM
Why can't I edit my posts?

I think you need to have 50 posts before you can do so. Strange rule...

jerriy
05-27-2010, 09:48 AM
typo corr:

1st line: lost = lose
2nd: seem = seems; don't = not

jerriy
05-27-2010, 09:50 AM
I think you need to have 50 posts before you can do so. Strange rule...The rule must be made by someone who can't type without looking at the keyboard ;>

TheNatural
05-27-2010, 10:03 AM
Nadal's H2h domination of Fed is purely down to Fed not using a big enough racket.

Agassifan
05-27-2010, 12:06 PM
No.. it is because they've played on Nadal's favorite surface too many times

jackson vile
05-27-2010, 12:45 PM
Question; why does Nadal lose to 1HBH Blake, Youzhny, etc.

Face it, it's another lame @$$ excuse. If it was purely a lefty thing, then all lefties would beat Roger and Nadal would crush all 1HBH players.

Niether one of those arguments are true!

Stop making excuses guys, it as old as Nadal's knees, DEAL WITH IT!

T1000
05-27-2010, 12:52 PM
Being a lefty helps but that's not the reason. It's the heavy spin to his backhand. Look at his matches against Andreev, he was pushed in both of them and could have lost both because Andreev has the closest forehand to Nadal than anyone else on tour. It's just easier for Nadal because it's natural to hit the forehand cross court where Andreev has to go down the line or hit an inside out.

edmondsm
05-27-2010, 05:53 PM
Being a lefty is not everything, but it's pretty huge when it comes to playing Federer. Being a lefty is an advantage against anyone who is right handed. They are not used to playing you, but you are used to playing them. Plus, a lefty can hit the slice serve out wide on nearly any game/break point.

Nadal also has the heavy topspin forehand, making his game absolutely ideal for breaking down Federer's 1hbh. This match up is a perfect storm for Nadal IMO. Many Nadal fans would disagree though.

rocket
05-27-2010, 06:17 PM
mental block. fed up 5-1 then lost 5-7. Fed up 4-0 then lost 4-6.

Fed could & did bagel Nadal, on clay. of course Nadal bageled him too.

piece
05-27-2010, 07:32 PM
So are you saying that he would be unable to produce the same amount od spin if he played right handed?

No I'm not saying that. I'm sure he would be able to. But he'd be having to hit his forehand inside out to Fed's backhand, rather than crosscourt. This would be problematic for Nadal for two reasons:
1 It's much harder to generate extreme topspin off the forehand when hitting inside out than it is when hitting crosscourt (mostly because you can't really use the reverse forehand follow through)
2 Hitting inside out leaves one side of the court open, so attacking down the line would be a more viable option for Fedd than it currently is

Rhino
05-27-2010, 07:35 PM
The H2H is a combination of the fact that it has been played predominantly on clay, and the age difference, and the fact that Federer still makes finals even when he's in a slump but Nadal doesn't, plus Nadal is a bad match up for him.

slicefox
05-27-2010, 09:27 PM
nadal cam only beat fed by moonballing to his backhand and exploiting (aka abusing exploits in the game).

ViscaB
05-27-2010, 09:46 PM
nadal cam only beat fed by moonballing to his backhand and exploiting (aka abusing exploits in the game).

So you are saying he beat the greatest of all times in the greatest match of all time on his favorite surface by moon-balling balls to him on a grass court:lol::lol::lol:.

HAL9001
05-28-2010, 02:44 AM
Thanks to all for participating. This has been a most interesting thread.

Fedbelly
05-28-2010, 04:17 AM
Its probably something to do with playing left handed but is more down to nadal being a superior athlete and a superior competitor with superior mental strength.

frisco
05-28-2010, 06:06 AM
Its probably something to do with playing left handed but is more down to nadal being a superior athlete and a superior competitor with superior mental strength.

Wow, you'd think being so superior in all of those categories would have put him closer than 10 slams behind the GOAT by now.

BigServer1
05-28-2010, 07:51 AM
I really think that the lefty crazy topspin+clay+mental aspect is really at the heart of it.

3-3 on HC, 2-1 (Fed) on grass, 10-2 on clay...It's pretty clear why the h2h is so skewed.

It's pretty funny though, the only player to EVER beat Nadal in a clay final since his run began is Federer, and he's done it twice. Even though Rafa is worlds better than anyone else on the dirt, the only guy in the world that's ever been able to beat him at that level is Fed.

I do think that if Fed/Rafa had happened at a couple US Opens, or the 2007 AO, for instance, the h2h would look a bit different, though still in favor of Nadal, because he's shown the ability to beat Fed on any surface.

Jay_The_Nomad
05-28-2010, 08:37 AM
The only real, asymmetrical advantage lefties have is getting to serve most breakpoints from their better side (the ad court).

That and the fact that playing righthanders is business as usual for them whereas for Righthanders, playing a lefty requires a change in tac

Rippy
05-28-2010, 11:41 AM
Its probably something to do with playing left handed but is more down to nadal being a superior athlete and a superior competitor with superior mental strength.

You'd think that would have extended to superior slam results then, wouldn't you?

Mustard
05-28-2010, 12:29 PM
It's funny, it's almost like Nadal's game was created by someone desperate to stop Federer's total domination of tennis.

ChopShot
05-28-2010, 12:31 PM
It's funny, it's almost like Nadal's game was created by someone desperate to stop Federer's total domination of tennis.

It's the tennis version of evolution. The "fittest" rises to the top of the rankings, in this case, Nadal's game is to Federer's what lions are to lambs. On clay, at least.

jackson vile
05-28-2010, 12:44 PM
nadal cam only beat fed by moonballing to his backhand and exploiting (aka abusing exploits in the game).

Excuses, he should practiice so that he can stop being outplayed.