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frank19991999
06-05-2010, 02:26 PM
I realize the back leg is the first one to leave the ground, does it mean is the one who does most of the pushing coming off the trophy position ?
Thx

CallOfBooty
06-05-2010, 02:53 PM
Don't quote me on this, but I am pretty sure that it is the front leg that does more pushing. The front leg does most of the pushing, so that means the back leg would leave the ground first. Think of the crossover step; when moving from left to right while utilizing the crossover step, your left leg comes up first so your right leg can keep the balance and continue pushing off for more power.

SystemicAnomaly
06-06-2010, 07:08 AM
The back leg is a strong contributor to the initial movement of the body forward & upward. However, I'd say the the front leg is probably the larger contributor to leg push upward.

corners
06-06-2010, 08:42 AM
Definitely the front foot. Your weight is moving forward throughout the motion and so you end up launching off the front foot. I use a platform stance and recently realized that my tendency to not toss far enough in front, to fall to the side and to stress my shoulder are all related to not getting my weight moving onto that front foot before launch (thanks Tricky).

A little drill I've come up with recently is to throw (or even pretend to throw) a football from my platform stance. I notice right away that my weight flows smoothly and quickly forward and onto the front foot. When I serve this is not always the case, so the drill reinforces this strong forward drive.

I also sometimes alternate between platform and bringing the rear leg up into the pinpoint. This also cues your body to get your weight and momentum moving forward. You can still hit a serve off your back foot, but it's a bit like hitting any other shot off the back foot - weak.

The platform stance is really interesting and I don't really understand it, but it seems to offer two unique things: 1) with the rear foot behind the front (like Sampras or Fed) you show your back to the opponent, which makes the serve very hard to read, and 2) having that rear foot back there means you can rotate the hips back as well. This allows your center of gravity to be moving forward onto your front foot but still be under a toss pretty far to the left. This allows the left toss, but into the court, even on 1st serves, giving that heavy drive-kick.

Blee1613
06-06-2010, 10:46 AM
Definitely the front foot. Your weight is moving forward throughout the motion and so you end up launching off the front foot.

You can still hit a serve off your back foot, but it's a bit like hitting any other shot off the back foot - weak.



Really? I never knew that. I always had my weight on my back leg. And then I jump upwards with my back leg because when I bend backwards thats just where the weight naturally goes. But you said that those shots are weak. Then why do I have a very strong and fast serve?

supineAnimation
06-06-2010, 01:23 PM
I've had to learn to serve solely off my back foot and it can be done without much sacrifice of power or spin as long as the other elements of the mechanics are there. The bigger problem is not being able to land solely on that front foot after contact as one should and as I always did when I had the use of both feet. It makes it tougher to get ready for the next shot, particularly if the returner hits a deep, hard return.

bad_call
06-06-2010, 01:56 PM
Really? I never knew that. I always had my weight on my back leg. And then I jump upwards with my back leg because when I bend backwards thats just where the weight naturally goes. But you said that those shots are weak. Then why do I have a very strong and fast serve?

back foot for me too. maybe corners can post a vid showing this.

Fedace
06-06-2010, 03:12 PM
The back leg is a strong contributor to the initial movement of the body forward & upward. However, I'd say the the front leg is probably the larger contributor to leg push upward.

NO NO. Upwards chain reaction starts with back Leg. If you start with front leg, you will fall flat on your face.

SystemicAnomaly
06-06-2010, 03:16 PM
back foot for me too. maybe corners can post a vid showing this.

Plenty of videos out there showing elite servers (Sampras, Federer, Roddic, etc) shifting the weight from the back foot to the front. The weight is generally on the back foot during the down phase of the arms. However, as the arms move upward for the toss and the trophy position, the weigh shifts forward and the back foot comes off the ground before the front foot does.

You can certainly achieve strong/fast serves with a different technique. The question is tho', does your particular motion put undue stress on some part of the body? Are you able to drive upward and forward on your serve?

SystemicAnomaly
06-06-2010, 03:17 PM
NO NO. Upwards chain reaction starts with back Leg. If you start with front leg, you will fall flat on your face.

Reread. That is what I said.

(edit: it just occurred to me that you may have been facetious).
.

Fedace
06-06-2010, 03:21 PM
Reread. That is what I said.

I see ok. :)

Blee1613
06-06-2010, 03:43 PM
Oh ok, my bad.
I do start with my weight on my back foot but as I get ready to jump my weight shifts into my front foot.

Fedace
06-06-2010, 06:22 PM
Oh ok, my bad.
I do start with my weight on my back foot but as I get ready to jump my weight shifts into my front foot.

then how do you push off with your right foot with all the weight on the left foot ??????:confused:

bad_call
06-06-2010, 06:35 PM
then how do you push off with your right foot with all the weight on the left foot ??????:confused:

a small insignificant detail...:)

Fedace
06-06-2010, 06:41 PM
a small insignificant detail...:)

You will Fall flat on your face sideways if this is the case.

supineAnimation
06-06-2010, 06:43 PM
then how do you push off with your right foot with all the weight on the left foot ??????:confused:
He may mean that more of his weight shifts to his front foot, but I think most use both legs in some combination.

Blee1613
06-06-2010, 06:44 PM
then how do you push off with your right foot with all the weight on the left foot ??????:confused:

My weight shifts right before I jump

corners
06-07-2010, 12:33 AM
Really? I never knew that. I always had my weight on my back leg. And then I jump upwards with my back leg because when I bend backwards thats just where the weight naturally goes. But you said that those shots are weak. Then why do I have a very strong and fast serve?

I hit some of serves around 95 mph the other day with poor weight transfer - jumping off the back foot. Serving fast off the back foot can be done... heck, serving fast off your knees is possible too. I can also serve faster if I get my weight moving into the ball and find it stresses my shoulder less. It's also, as people have written above, possible to serve with the front foot off the ground. But to do it well you have to fall forward during the swing and land on the front foot.

Take a look at this post/thread, where resident mechanical expert tricky addresses weight transfer in the platform stance with a one-foot drill:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=4441232&highlight=platform#post4441232

Here's another post that helped me identify how I was falling and back and to the side as I served from the platform:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=4065386&postcount=29

And here's an interesting article talking about the difference between a "pull-through" serve, where the weight and momentum does not flow forward into the ball, and the "drive" serve, where it does.

http://www.stms.nl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1204&Itemid=283

This article notes that a failure to setup and execute the "drive" kinetic chain can be caused by weakness and poor loading of the front leg. However, it also notes "The trunk rotates around the stable post of the front leg as it is pushed up by the back leg muscles." This is interesting but seems to confuse the issue a bit. Seems like everyone in this thread is partially right.

bad_call
06-07-2010, 10:48 AM
here's an instruction link that indicates both legs push off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfFwnqZAf7I&feature=related

Fedace
06-07-2010, 12:09 PM
here's an instruction link that indicates both legs push off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfFwnqZAf7I&feature=related

it saids nothing about which leg is predominantly pushing off leg. right or left. i never heard of Equally

bad_call
06-07-2010, 01:27 PM
it saids nothing about which leg is predominantly pushing off leg. right or left. i never heard of Equally

pushing off equally means both if not mistaken.

SystemicAnomaly
06-07-2010, 03:48 PM
here's an instruction link that indicates both legs push off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfFwnqZAf7I&feature=related

pushing off equally means both if not mistaken.

There is no argument that both legs push off. However, this does not imply that they push off equally. The back foot comes off the ground while the front leg/foot is still pushing. Seems doubtful that the contributions to the upward motion is equal. However, I don't believe that it is really all that important anyway.

bad_call
06-07-2010, 04:33 PM
There is no argument that both legs push off. However, this does not imply that they push off equally. The back foot comes off the ground while the front leg/foot is still pushing. Seems doubtful that the contributions to the upward motion is equal. However, I don't believe that it is really all that important anyway.

what % do each perform?

btw - the FYB link person (WH) states weight equal on each foot at around the 10+ sec mark.

Fedace
06-07-2010, 07:12 PM
what % do each perform?

btw - the FYB link person (WH) states weight equal on each foot at around the 10+ sec mark.

If so you could fall flat sideways.

SystemicAnomaly
06-07-2010, 11:40 PM
what % do each perform?

btw - the FYB link person (WH) states weight equal on each foot at around the 10+ sec mark.

Don't know the % (as I siad previously, probably not really that important).

Yes, the weight may very well be evenly distributed at the trophy phase (or just prior to this). However, the leg drive does not really happen until after this -- as the racket head drops (to the scratch position), the legs start to drive upward.

stules
06-08-2010, 12:11 AM
One of the articles on 'tennisplayer' describes 'driving' off the legs, as opposed to jumping. It emphasises this difference as being very important.

Someone else may be able to describe that better. The direction of your where your body is balanced (and hence weight distribution on each leg) at the time you initiate the upwards motion from the trophy, combined with the force (and duration of force) applied to each leg, will together dictate the launch direction.

What I am inelegantly saying is that you will need differently apportioned leg drive to launch into the position that is dictated by your toss.

bad_call
06-08-2010, 07:22 AM
Don't know the % (as I siad previously, probably not really that important).

Yes, the weight may very well be evenly distributed at the trophy phase (or just prior to this). However, the leg drive does not really happen until after this -- as the racket head drops (to the scratch position), the legs start to drive upward.

it might be important if it affects launch direction.

bad_call
06-08-2010, 07:25 AM
One of the articles on 'tennisplayer' describes 'driving' off the legs, as opposed to jumping. It emphasises this difference as being very important.

Someone else may be able to describe that better. The direction of your where your body is balanced (and hence weight distribution on each leg) at the time you initiate the upwards motion from the trophy, combined with the force (and duration of force) applied to each leg, will together dictate the launch direction.

What I am inelegantly saying is that you will need differently apportioned leg drive to launch into the position that is dictated by your toss.

this is what i also visualized.

bad_call
06-16-2010, 03:54 PM
The key in serve placement is how you "throw your upper body" in the direction you want to go.

Watch the following video by Ian Westermann of essentialtennis.com: http://www.essentialtennis.com/video/2010/04/pronating-on-wide-and-middle-serves/

The main point he makes by using 2 cameras from the back and side is that for his toss and trophy position there is very little difference in body or ball toss for a wide, body, or down the T serve.
The difference comes from the way he swings his upper body forward out of the trophy position.
Since his arm is attatched to his upper body, this means he doesn't have to change the arm is swinging, only the direction the upper body is moving.

(It is likely you already know this, but in your trophy position you assume the shape of a bow with your front hip out and your upper body and hitting shoulder are directed back, and your hitting shoulder is much lower than your front shoulder. As you swing forward, your upper body "cartwheels" forward with your hitting shoulder ending up much higher than your front shoulder. The direction you "cartwheel" is the direction your serve will go.)

If you are a disciple of the "serve up the mountain" concept http://www.youtube.com/user/servedoc#p/u/5/WlPVdppfYGs just move your mountain a little to the left if you are a right hander trying to serve out wide on the deuce court, and move your mountain a little to the left to serve down the T. Then just serve up your particular mountain for great placement of a powerful serve.

this post from another thread totally supports the balanced leg push.

SuperDuy
06-16-2010, 05:00 PM
I am having trouble get the leg push into the court with this stance also, what can I do to get more foreword momentum and leg push? now I tend to sway back then jump into the court but it doesn't feel right, is there anyway to get it with the correct mechanics?

corners
06-16-2010, 11:37 PM
I am having trouble get the leg push into the court with this stance also, what can I do to get more foreword momentum and leg push? now I tend to sway back then jump into the court but it doesn't feel right, is there anyway to get it with the correct mechanics?

Check out the links to posts by "tricky" earlier in this thread. An advanced search for "platform", author: tricky will give you more on the subject. In my opinion it's difficult not to get your weight moving forward using pinpoint stance as you shift all of your weight onto the front foot when you bring up the rear one. But with the platform it's easy to let your momentum lag. Tricky's one-foot drill worked well for me in fixing this issue. That many really knows his stuff.

It's also important, in my opinion to make sure your legs are strong enough. In a pinpoint you can only drop as low as your front leg will allow, since all of your weight is on that leg. But with the platform, since your knee bend occurs when you have weight on both you legs, you can actually get lower than your front leg can handle. Then, when you're supposed to be shifting all of your weight toward your front foot, your front leg really can't handle it, as you're now actually too low. This results in a lag in forward momentum and failure to get yourself into the court when you explode upward. Instead you kind of rotate around and to the side, especially if you are using a toss to the left, like Sampras and Fed.

Another thing tricky mentioned is that if you are failing to get your weight forward in the platform your tossing arm will tend to go beyond vertical and wander off to the side. One way to work on balance and leg strength at the same time is to get into your trophy pose and then stop. Notice if your left arm is vertical. If it's not, move it there and stretch it up a little bit. You'll probably notice a diffference in the way your weight is distributed on your feet, especially the pressure you feel on the front foot.

If you stay in the trophy pose and move your tossing arm from vertical, past vertical (to the side) and back again you'll feel your center of gravity shift forward and backward. You can then feel how, if you let your arm drift past vertical, your weight shifts onto the back foot. If the number one rule in serving is to keep your momentum moving forward from start to finish, then letting that arm go past vertical really puts a jam in that plan.

charliefedererer
06-17-2010, 08:09 AM
Your goal should be to push off equally hard with both legs to avoid an overuse leg injury.

The key in the equal leg pushoff is balance of your body weight over both feet in the trophy position.

As the ball reaches the apex of the toss, you should be staring up at it with a deep knee bend, full body coil, and to counterbalance the bow shape of your body the front hip has to be out forward.

But despite all of this coiling/bow/knee bend you must be balanced with your body weight over both legs.

Now try to push off equally hard from both legs.

Well, because of your body position with a deeper knee bend of the rear leg (because you are shaped like a bow), your rear leg is going to end up pushing off a little harder at first until both knees are unbent to an equal extent, and then your front leg is going to be pushing off longer (at least on a flat serve) because your cartwheel action is going to be bringing your body forward into the court, and your center of gravity is going to pass over the baseline as you tilt forward, so your front leg will be the last one pushing off as your back leg has already lifted off the ground.

This is WAY TOO MUCH TO BE THINKING ABOUT WHEN SERVING.

So just be balanced in your trophy pose and have the goal of pushing off equally hard with both legs and you will "will" your body to do it right.

(Yes, SA if you are reading, I am agreeing with everything you said. I just couldn't help myself posting.)

charliefedererer
06-17-2010, 08:24 AM
I am having trouble get the leg push into the court with this stance also, what can I do to get more foreword momentum and leg push? now I tend to sway back then jump into the court but it doesn't feel right, is there anyway to get it with the correct mechanics?

I'll bet you are not flowing out of your tossing motion into your trophy pose.

My guess is that you are tossing, and only then coiling/bending your knees, resulting in a jerky, rushed attempt to get into your trophy pose .

The toss should incorporate body movements so you are already incorporating some coil/knee bend as you keep raising that tossing arm high to get a pronounced shoulder tilt. Listen to Brent Abel as he begs us to serve with purpose of not just getting the ball into the proper position, but to use the toss to get us into a comfortable, balanced agressive trophy pose: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZp90h-Ar8&feature=channel Pay attention to his hint that your front hip must be "pushed out" to counterbalance your backward tilt of the upper body in the "bow position", as is also emphasized by Will Hamiltion in this video: http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/video-tennis-lessons/serve/advanced-serve-technique/leading-with-your-hip-when-serving/


Once in a comfortable, balanced, unrushed trophy pose, it will just seem natural to have a balanced leg pushoff as you "hit up the mountain" for your monster serve.

I hope this helps.

bad_call
06-17-2010, 08:29 AM
Your goal should be to push off equally hard with both legs to avoid an overuse leg injury.

The key in the equal leg pushoff is balance of your body weight over both feet in the trophy position.

As the ball reaches the apex of the toss, you should be staring up at it with a deep knee bend, full body coil, and to counterbalance the bow shape of your body the front hip has to be out forward.

But despite all of this coiling/bow/knee bend you must be balanced with your body weight over both legs.

Now try to push off equally hard from both legs.

Well, because of your body position with a deeper knee bend of the rear leg (because you are shaped like a bow), your rear leg is going to end up pushing off a little harder at first until both knees are unbent to an equal extent, and then your front leg is going to be pushing off longer (at least on a flat serve) because your cartwheel action is going to be bringing your body forward into the court, and your center of gravity is going to pass over the baseline as you tilt forward, so your front leg will be the last one pushing off as your back leg has already lifted off the ground.

This is WAY TOO MUCH TO BE THINKING ABOUT WHEN SERVING.

So just be balanced in your trophy pose and have the goal of pushing off equally hard with both legs and you will "will" your body to do it right.

HAHA!! agreed...and good post.

GPB
06-17-2010, 08:40 AM
I find myself putting too much weight over my front leg, letting my back one just move wherever it wants (usually sliding up towards the front).

In practice, I try to focus on keeping my weight balanced between the two feet, as I think that's the whole point behind the platform stance. It looks like I'm correct in this thinking, reading the posts above.

Stay balanced, get a twist, stick out the hip, and then go get it!

SystemicAnomaly
06-17-2010, 11:10 AM
Don't know the % (as I siad previously, probably not really that important).

Yes, the weight may very well be evenly distributed at the trophy phase (or just prior to this). However, the leg drive does not really happen until after this -- as the racket head drops (to the scratch position), the legs start to drive upward.

it might be important if it affects launch direction.

No, not important to know the % to be able to perform the the action. Just like it is not necessary to know the exact numerical court dimensions to be able to properly hit your shots deep into NML.

bad_call
06-17-2010, 12:16 PM
No, not important to know the % to be able to perform the the action. Just like it is not necessary to know the exact numerical court dimensions to be able to properly hit your shots deep into NML.

yet you claim otherwise in previous posts...backtracking eh?

SystemicAnomaly
06-17-2010, 02:10 PM
yet you claim otherwise in previous posts...backtracking eh?

Never claimed otherwise. Please cite what you think is an example.

bad_call
06-17-2010, 04:00 PM
no point continuing since % don't matter IYO.

SystemicAnomaly
06-17-2010, 04:13 PM
no point continuing since % don't matter IYO.

You are either misrepresenting or misunderstanding what I posted. My point is that putting a numerical value on those percentages is not really that important. I am not saying that is not of value to say that the one leg (the front one) pushes off more than the other.