PDA

View Full Version : You know what.. I am tired of..


NGreenwald42390
05-23-2005, 09:48 PM
Im tired of people complaining about new technology racquets. And that they only play with there prince graphire or there PS 6.0 85. Maybe the flexpoint is bs and the o-ports is bs ( not maybe it is) but there are still new racquets that are good like the prince diablo( mid) LM prestige and others.

Coda
05-23-2005, 10:13 PM
I'm tired of being promised more power, more control, and more feel AT the same time in a racket only to demo it and find out it plays slightly better than a 2X4 and costs about 200 dollars more. I don't blame the companies for making money, we do live in a capitalist society. (in the US anyway) But from my perspective, it's aggravating.

MChong
05-23-2005, 10:16 PM
Heh, I play the Diablo! Anyways, it's kind of hard, at times, not to complain because they're making money off something that isn't really doing anything. They're trying to waste our money, and I think that's something to complain about.

billyboybeacon
05-23-2005, 10:17 PM
Amen brother..I really like ths site but there is a bunch of old schooler's on this site..I have never met anyone who play's w/ a pog it seems 1/2 the guys on this site do..its a blast to try the new stuff..tennis would be boring if no new rackets were put out..my .02

Coda
05-23-2005, 10:25 PM
that X1 of yours can't really be considered a full blown modern racket in case you were wondering...and no tennis wouldn't be boring without new rackets. Without the serve, tennis might get a little boring! :)

BreakPoint
05-23-2005, 11:13 PM
Funny, that you named the Prince Diablo Mid and the LM Prestige, because they're actually two of the worst racquets that I've demoed in the last two years (and I've demoed over 60). Funny also that I find the POG and PS 6.0 to be two of the best racquets over the past 20 years. I guess that's why so many people still play with them. I highly doubt anyone will be playing with either a Diablo or LM Prestige in 20 years time.

Coda
05-23-2005, 11:39 PM
BP, I give the LM Prestige a year. The flexpoint prestige should be out by then.

Deuce
05-24-2005, 12:05 AM
Each racquet company already knows its next three models, as well as the dates they will be introduced and discontinued.

The racquet companies adore people like billyboy, who'll buy anything, as long as it comes with a slick promise...

The more billyboys there are, the fewer quality racquets will be made.

LafayetteHitter
05-24-2005, 12:27 AM
I find some newer models of racquets I have a preference for sometimes I might like an older model, I don't think the technology makes that much of a difference, sometimes it just takes finding the racquet that works for you through trying different racquets. I know that as soon as I see something new out I don't start thinking it will make a huge difference in my game.

billyboybeacon
05-24-2005, 12:32 AM
Hey,I don't buy them..I demo and try them..see what people say and what sticks..I enjoy trying new technology I do agree I am normally disappointed...I have a LM Instinct XL that I think is a very solid easy on the arm stick..just too pwerful for my game..maybe I should try a POG b4 I blast it..my X-1 feels very old school.. I can't imagine a better S&V stick

Richie Rich
05-24-2005, 03:42 AM
Have seen no one EVER play with POG (Mid or OS) and only 1 guy that can handle a PS 85 good enough to hit hard shots with it and I've been playing for 30 years.
However, do agree that the new stuff coming out is BS but makes no diff to me - I play with what I like and ignore the technology crap. If I liked the FP radical I'd play with it regardless of all the BS claims.

ollinger
05-24-2005, 05:35 AM
Maybe a first step is to end the aggrandized use of the word "technology." When Volkl puts a V rather than a U shape in the throat, or Prince enlarges the holes strings pass through, this may very well be design or styling but it is hardly technology. The fact that the change may even have functional significance does not matter. A car manufacturer may make the front end of a model more streamlined and thus fractionally improve gas mileage, but it is not touted as "new technology."
________
LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS (http://livesexwebshows.com/)

AndrewD
05-24-2005, 06:03 AM
Just because I think little of the new technology 'claims' doesn't mean I'll discount a newer frames. A good one is a good one and its never because it has some special ingredient or shape. It's good because the company managed to get the weight, balance, flex and swingweight right. None of those things require new technology, just good design.

I've transitioned from the Head Prestige Pro to the LM Prestige mid, not because of the liquidmetal but because it is, to me, the best compliment to my game. It's also a choice I've made after having tried most all of the old sticks and the new ones.

I don't think its perfect and I think it would have better 'feel' without the liquidmetal but it is, in essence, a straightforward frame with the weight, balance, flex, headsize and swingweight I like. Really, isn't that all you need to consider when buying a frame (price aside)?

POGO
05-24-2005, 06:10 AM
Funny, that you named the Prince Diablo Mid and the LM Prestige, because they're actually two of the worst racquets that I've demoed in the last two years (and I've demoed over 60). Funny also that I find the POG and PS 6.0 to be two of the best racquets over the past 20 years. I guess that's why so many people still play with them. I highly doubt anyone will be playing with either a Diablo or LM Prestige in 20 years time.
Hhahahahah good point BreakPoint!!! Isn't it interesting how Prince come up with updated versions of the POG over the years, like the POG II, TT Graphite, and NXG Graphite, and yet Prince still continues to make the original POG, while the updated versions become flops and discontinued?

I've seen the Diablo going on clearance, and indication that Prince will be discontinuing it, and yet the POG is still being sold on a regular basis. Not bad for a racket over 28 years old.

POGO
05-24-2005, 06:15 AM
Have seen no one EVER play with POG (Mid or OS) and only 1 guy that can handle a PS 85 good enough to hit hard shots with it and I've been playing for 30 years.
However, do agree that the new stuff coming out is BS but makes no diff to me - I play with what I like and ignore the technology crap. If I liked the FP radical I'd play with it regardless of all the BS claims.
Hmmmm...where I play, I've seen some people playing the POGs, mostly the OS though and some mids.

Hedges
05-24-2005, 06:53 AM
For those who prefer the "new technology"...does it bother you when (if) someone beats you using the retro-stuff (like POG, PS or even wood)?

I'll admit that I hate losing to a tweener racket.

bertrevert
05-24-2005, 07:22 AM
I've transitioned from the Head Prestige Pro to the LM Prestige mid, not because of the liquidmetal but because it is, to me, the best compliment to my game. It's also a choice I've made after having tried most all of the old sticks and the new ones.

The Head racquets are probably the worst offenders as far as making claims for their technologies.

However, as far as I can tell, and despite Head's blather about their technologies, I can say the LM Rad MP, for example, is just a great frame. Using one has improved my game. Can I ask for anything more from a frame?

Maybe I haven't used enough frames to make any definitive statement, maybe the Head carry-on is offputting, all I can say is that despite the LiquidMetal or anything else, Head still makes a string-sensitive traditional-shape fairly-hefty great players frame. It's not like they're from Mars.

I think there are some traditional verities that remain true. And good frames stick close to those proven attributes. Prestige have got that great lineage - they're just great frames. I think racquet manufacturers attempt to sell us and tell us that they have tweaked them into a something from Mars - but we know better! Er, don't we?

nViATi
05-24-2005, 07:22 AM
For those who prefer the "new technology"...does it bother you when (if) someone beats you using the retro-stuff (like POG, PS or even wood)?

I'll admit that I hate losing to a tweener racket.
you are not losing to a racquet. you are losing to the player who is better than you.

AndrewD
05-24-2005, 07:40 AM
Personally I'd prefer that no-one beat me, new technology or not. That being wholly unrealistic I'll take a loss to a better player with the good grace you're supposed to.

But really, you can't put a wooden racquet in the same category as the PS 85 or the POG. They are, as far as Im concerned, still new technology. That is, they are lighter than wood, have a bigger headsize, a very open string pattern on one, more powerful materials and bigger sweetspots. Still have more than ample power, in the right hands, to knock you off the court which I can't say for a standard sized wooden frame.

Up until this week I've been playing with, winning and losing with a 16 year old racquet. Haven't seen anyone get upset so far and haven't had myself blame old technology when I lose.

I think its best to remember the old saying, 'believe nothing you read and only half what you see'. Ignore the advertising, grab a frame, have a hit with it and if you like it then use it. New or old tech it doesn't matter (and a lot of the old tech was rubbish as well), just matters what works best for you.

POGO
05-24-2005, 07:49 AM
For those who prefer the "new technology"...does it bother you when (if) someone beats you using the retro-stuff (like POG, PS or even wood)?

I'll admit that I hate losing to a tweener racket.
Hmmmm...aren't most new rackets now tweener rackets? The people whoe beat you with their POG, PS 85, or even RD-7 are playing a true player's racket, no gimmicks and bells and whistles. They beat you because they have better game than you period.


Keep practicing. ;)

Bora
05-24-2005, 08:44 AM
Oh yeah, PS 85 has no gimmicks and whistles, NOT! Apparently you missed the little PWS bulges at the 3 and 9 and 20% kevlar mix. So, it was the new technology at one point. Afterall it wasn't wood. Its just that its a new technology that actually stuck, probably cause it worked for some people.

Brad Smith
05-24-2005, 01:28 PM
Most racket technology makes tennis easier to play the same way an automatic transmission makes it easier to drive. Some people prefer to switch gears themselves...

Feña14
05-24-2005, 01:44 PM
The POG and PS 6.0 85 are simple, yet efective rackets.

They don't give you much, the racket does exactly what you tell it and you know when you have gone wrong.

With these newer frames with 21535355 sqi head's the game becomes far less enjoyable for me.

I'll stick to the old school thankyou very much ;)

Feña14
05-24-2005, 01:46 PM
Most racket technology makes tennis easier to play the same way an automatic transmission makes it easier to drive. Some people prefer to switch gears themselves...

lol... nice way of putting it

antontd
05-24-2005, 02:57 PM
interesting... But the worst thing is that racquet manufactures have no interest to produce quality frames...

Jet Rink
05-24-2005, 03:31 PM
you are not losing to a racquet. you are losing to the player who is better than you.

Here Here!

I could not agree more - the "old school" racquets also are superior for control and hence, more reliant on the player him/herself.

Noticed this a.m. that during the Agassi debacle (too bad for that guy) Mary Carillo mentioned that Andre was having trouble taming the "more powerful racquet" he was playing but "had to do something to keep up."

Standardize at the pro level!

Jet

Flatspin
05-24-2005, 04:24 PM
I love new technology and support it! However, I think that racquets companies tend to promise more than they can deliver ...... charge to much for their frames that really don't show much improvement. I would like more attention to details and quality! There are alot of new racquets that I like. But they are not necessarilly any better than what we already have!

TennsDog
05-24-2005, 04:26 PM
I agree that most new technologies promise things that they fail to acheive. However, that is why we demo rackets first, and therefore don't need to waste our money on crappy frames. It isn't even fair to say that a particular racket is bad. No company would release a frame unless they had a good indication that people would buy it, meaning that frame is good for somebody...Somebody who probably think your frame is crappy and has no power/control/etc. People have different opinions and no one can find all rackets equally good. Some will rate high, some low, but don't put down on other rackets because they don't fit your game...unless your complaining about the cosmetics of the Wilson Torch. That's ok.

Flatspin
05-24-2005, 04:34 PM
I agree with TennsDog ...... there are as they say "different Strokes for different Folks"!!!

Tennis312
05-24-2005, 04:54 PM
Part of the reason why the POG and PS 6.0 are so beloved is they come from a time when the racquet manufacturers kept racquets around for more than a year (and there were fewer to chose from). There is still a critical mass of folks who like and use those racquets (though other than this board, I don't know where they are - I never see either racquet anymore). But I wonder how many players who are switching racquets today, or are learning to play today, pick up and stay with one of those racquets.

I think it is false to suggest there is something objectively superior to, say, the POG, just because you can still buy it. Today, no sooner do you adopt the PS Tour 90 than it is discontinued and the PS ncode 6.1 90 arrives. The ncode gets pushed aside and something else is in its place. The PS Tour 90 may be the best ever, but if it is not around long enough to build a following and accumulate both new players and those switching racquets, it will never achieve "classic" status. Manufacturers keep rolling out new models and replacing old ones (just like car companies, etc.) because "new" sells more/better than "classic". If "classic" sold better, you could still buy any number of the still beloved racquets you read about on this board. While a subset of players stick with one racquet and build their games around it, the vast majority are always looking for an edge and think a new technology will bring it. Maybe, maybe not. But it is true of pretty much every sport that requires equipment beyond a ball (basketball shoes, anyone?). I think that, except for a very small minority of players, once you find a racquet you like and are comfortable with, you are better off spending the cost of upgrading to this year's model costs on court time, private lessons, or going to a tournament to watch the pros. Any of those will improve your game more, I think, than switching between racquets that are essentially the same, except in their paint jobs and marketing pitch.

Flatspin
05-24-2005, 06:14 PM
It's true IMO ..... the racquet gets to much of the "marquis"! Game improvement is a result of practice, learning, fitness, speed and working to improve your game .... how about "footwork"! IMO there are alot of folks that falsely believe that buying the newest "whiz bang" racquet somehow will make them a better player. Then there is strings ......... same applies. A more skilled player will beat you every time regardless of the racquet!!!!!

Tenny
05-24-2005, 06:27 PM
Im tired of people complaining about new technology racquets. And that they only play with there prince graphire or there PS 6.0 85. Maybe the flexpoint is bs and the o-ports is bs ( not maybe it is) but there are still new racquets that are good like the prince diablo( mid) LM prestige and others.

Hi, NG
I suggest you try a POG OS yourself. But try to find a fresh (not 20 years old ones) one with fresh string cause you will be comparing the legendary stick with brand new sticks with new technology. Old POG with old string wouldn't do justice for you. You should know that racquets die as it's get used. I began playing tennis 3 years ago and tried quite a few but finally settled with a POG OS. There is a good reason why POG OS. If the POG OS was introduced yesterday after Flexpoint racquets were introduced, I would buy a POG. It's because it's a good racquet (I don't even like its cosmetics). I just don't care about newer racquets b/c I found I play best with this ancient stick.

ormurray
05-25-2005, 08:09 AM
I wonder whether many of you would be complaining so much about new racquets if price weren't an issue. If you could try, and buy, any racquet you wanted whenever you wanted, would you play a 25 year old "classic"? Given inflation over the years, a new $200 racquet is cheaper than your first Wilson or Prince 25 years ago.

Personally, I like to try new racquets and I've found a lot of things about some, like the Prince O3 tour, that really work for me. It is heavy enough for most shots I need yet swings light like a dream. For me, it is better than a Wilson 6.0 (which I've used), the variety of Radicals (which I've used), and several others. I don't know whether the technology made the difference, or whether Prince just came up with the right formula of weight, balance, size, etc. that works for me. Call it technology or call it BS, the more variety that manufacturers come up with, the more likely more people will find what works for them.

Grimjack
05-25-2005, 08:55 AM
I wonder whether many of you would be complaining so much about new racquets if price weren't an issue. If you could try, and buy, any racquet you wanted whenever you wanted, would you play a 25 year old "classic"? Given inflation over the years, a new $200 racquet is cheaper than your first Wilson or Prince 25 years ago.


Having hit with both an AeroPro Drive and a POG OS in the last two weeks, I can honestly assess that if the Babolats were $50 a pop, and POGs were $200, I'd buy POGs instead.

BreakPoint
05-25-2005, 10:22 AM
I agree. Even if some of the new racquets were $10, I'd still buy a PS 6.0 95 over it. It has nothing to do with price. It has to do with how good a racquet is and how well you play with it. The bottom line is I wouldn't use some of the new racquets even if they were free or if they paid me to use them (unless they pay me in the millions, of course). ;) With that said, not all new racquets are bad, there are a few that are quite good as a matter of fact. But since they're not really significantly better than what I'm using now, I see no reason to spend more money to switch. But that's just me.

16
05-25-2005, 12:44 PM
I agree with what Breakpoint and Grimjack are saying. Honestly when choosing a racquet I’m going to pick the one I hit better with and/or like the feel of more. It doesn't matter if the one I like is 50$ or 300$, if I think it’s the best racquet out there for me the price (to a certain extend doesn't matter). I don't dislike the new technology, but for the most part the new racquets just don't fit my game as well as the older ones. I'm sure eventually I’ll find a newer racquet that I can adapt to (control/feel the ball with) and reek the benefits, but as of now my 6.0 95 fits my game and feels better for my game than any of the new racquets that I have tried.

tom4ny
05-25-2005, 01:27 PM
hehe, good thread. i dunno how many people would be interested in buying a new racquet that is marketed as "not really any better than what we you already have but it looks cool"

seems to me people love to try new racquets and many might switch in 0-2 yrs. same for most athletic gear and sprots supplements. plus, people are always looking for the next thing to give them a better edge. so to me it makes sense for a company to market that way.

demo away and be happy.

TommyGun
05-25-2005, 01:53 PM
Right about now I really miss wood frames...

nw tennis
05-25-2005, 02:03 PM
Same argument, different era.
It used to be the wood racquet purists screaming at players experimenting with the new steel or aluminum frames. Then came graphite and, through the years, other materials that seemingly were lighter and stiffer.
It also used to be the small-head purists screaming at the the midsize and oversize frame usres.
It also used to be the thin-beam purists screaming at those using new widebody frames. And then standard-length racquet users...

I do agree that when it comes to improving one's game, the choice of racquet is not nearly as important as solid fundamentals, mental toughness and good fitness. A better player can defeat you using a 2-by-4.

But I also feel like you should feel free to play with any racquet you like, even if it's a 115 square-inch, titanium widebody longbody. Unless they're deemed illegal, there's nothing wrong with it.

Deuce
05-25-2005, 11:57 PM
Maybe a first step is to end the aggrandized use of the word "technology." When Volkl puts a V rather than a U shape in the throat, or Prince enlarges the holes strings pass through, this may very well be design or styling but it is hardly technology. The fact that the change may even have functional significance does not matter. A car manufacturer may make the front end of a model more streamlined and thus fractionally improve gas mileage, but it is not touted as "new technology."

Good distinction.

I very much agree regarding your Volkl and Prince examples.

My personal favorite is Wilson's "Hammer Technology". It's nothing more than head heavy balance. They must have somehow patented it, though - because they were going to sue Prince a few years ago for copying their 'Hammer' BS with the 'Triple Threat' BS, which was also simply placing more weight in the head.

Another wonderful 'technology' is Wilson's PWS - which I believe is also somehow patented. Some claim there's nothing inside the bulges but air. Even if there is a little weight inside... uh... lead tape, anyone?

Too many stupid people are inherently impressed whenever they hear the word 'technology' - especially when it's preceded by the word 'new' and/or 'improved'.

Gullible, gullible, gullible...

rooski
05-26-2005, 05:55 AM
Amen brother..I really like ths site but there is a bunch of old schooler's on this site..I have never met anyone who play's w/ a pog it seems 1/2 the guys on this site do..its a blast to try the new stuff..tennis would be boring if no new rackets were put out..my .02

Why don't you start another poll to find out how many ppl here use POG or PS6085? Probably not very many in the scheme of things. I own several PS6085's (which I played for 10 years or more) but they are in the closet. I occasionally chime in on a PS6085 thread because I have a long experience with that frame ...even though I haven't played it in competition in years.

It may seem that everybody plays these two classics but I think you will find the actual #'s small as many of the 1000+ posts users here chime in with their 2 cents a LOT.

Yes they are great rackets but very few people can benefit from them unless they are strong accomplished players. Sure I could go out with my PS6085's and beat everybody at my club but I would never be that bold in a USTA tier 1 or 2 event. I can do a LOT more with my current frame than with my old black beauty.;)

NoBadMojo
05-26-2005, 06:47 AM
First of all, the V-Engine IS technology. Secondly it isnt new technology, as Petr KOrda used a V-Engine type frame years ago before switching to the C1oPro. Thirdly, the -Engine does do something for the performence of the frame..it stiffins that area of the frame, and that allows te use of softer materials like fiberglass in the layup without it being a soggy frame, and it also makes the frame more stable on the long axis. There is useful technology and then there is smoke and mirror technology like Head uses with all these terms and materials that you can neither see nor feel.

exVermonter
05-26-2005, 07:09 AM
The interesting thing is that you don't see too many racquet companies going out of business - so someone is buying the frames. I think you have to put this in perspective - there are more people playing at the 2.5 - 3.5 level than there are playing 4.0 and above. It is to them that most of the marketing is targeted. In my experience, racquets are an evolutionary thing, as your game develops, your racquet requirements will change. Once you get to 4.0 and up, your mechanics are pretty sound and you will have settled on a frame the compliments your game. Look at your club courts and you will see that many people get "stuck" at the 3-3.5 level because the can't or won't change the mechanics required to advance their game. As an alternative, they may look at different racquets as the "thing that is going to put them over the top". Racquet makers understand (capitalize on) this and thus you have Racquet du jour -

Look in the average tennis shop or pro shop - how many "players frames" do they carry compared to how many Liquid Metal V engine N coded frames with Woofer technology and O rings ?

Myself, I started with a Wilson Triad 4, moved to a Head i-tour, to a Wilson PS 90 and finally to a Wilson PS 6 85. In the meantime I have demo'd Ncodes, Diablos, rdx500's and tour 10's and find that the PS still compliments my game. Doesn't make me better or worse, just comfortable with my racquet at this point. I suppose as I get older (42 now) the natural evolution will be that I will work backwards through the same progression - kind of like life - you start in diapers, and sadly you may finish in them as well :)

tom4ny
05-26-2005, 01:30 PM
didnt the old fischer graphite stan smith racquet incorporate a V in the throat as well? i believe it did and this was back in 1981.

anyway, keep the technology coming and keep the marketing of technology coming too, please. some of us think its way cool that we get to see and try new stuff all the time and then get to decide if its great or garbage then voice our opinions.

larrhall
05-26-2005, 07:41 PM
My impression is that most new technologies are hyped but not all.

The 'not all' section is identifiable with time because smart players recognize the benefit of the frame and it survives. So I think the V-Engine concept really does provide a unique benefit. Stiffens up the throat, adds pop while not compromising control much at all.

I'm going to guess here, because I didn't play tennis when the POG OS came out, but I think it added something. Was it the first of the thin beam OSs or one of them - I don't know? Was it the balance - to me this frame is ultra-smooth, not feeling at all like an OS - not at all.

So in a case like the POG OS it's probably not 'new technology' but rather a successful recipe - the right mix of balance, weight, power and spin-iness - plus exceptional arm comfort. That can be the best technology of all.

POGO
05-26-2005, 07:46 PM
larrhall,

Yes, the POG OS was the first OS graphite ever made. I read that somewhere. I believe it first came out in 1977. When it came out, everyone wanted one, it was like the PD of the 70's and 80's.

NoBadMojo
05-26-2005, 08:04 PM
hardly anyone wanted one of these when they came out (graphite was really expensive then and only the very wealthy country clubbers wanted to spend the 300 bucks for a graphite racquet back then)..lots of us used the Yamaha Fiberglass YFG30 when it was time to abandon our woodies..those could be had for like 60 bucks. i doubt the POG was the first graphite racquet...There was the Aldila Cannon altho i dont know if that was an oversized graphite frame...Aldila having been makers of graphite golf shafts might have had the jump on the graphite tennis craze...the Green prince metal oversized may have been one of the earlier oversized frames however..Pam Shriver was one of the early ones to use it.i believe that was a Howard Head design. perhaps someone has a clearer memory of this (not that it is impt)