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soyizgood
07-29-2010, 06:31 PM
I sold out. Actually plunked $60 of my hard-earned money on this. Nevermind I sucked at the original. I saw too many alpha and beta vidreps on youtube to resist. Installing the game as we speak. Anyone else test out the game? How is it? Who knows, we might even form a team here.

It seems the Protoss have all the good units. If they were so strong how did they lose Aiur to the Zerg? The Zerg could have conquered their sector but Kerrigan held back for some reason. Terrans as usual fighting themselves.

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soyizgood (superflysoy, 312)
NickC
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GetBetterer
hansolo
OKUSA
RyanRF
fundrazer
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Juges8932
Hot Sauce (depylon, 476)
RoddickRook (wrangler, 499)
FlamEnemY
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Legend of Borg

NickC
07-29-2010, 06:34 PM
I'll get around to picking it up sooner rather than later. I don't give a hoot about the story mode, I just want to get a few reps in with Terran and a good feel for their new units (and change my tactics to deal with the loss of several units like the firebat and medic) before I take it to Battle.net and start owning everyone in sight.

soyizgood
07-29-2010, 06:52 PM
The game comes with a 7 hour playing trial you can give to a friend. I'll probably spend this weekend trying to get familiar with the Terran units. Maybe dabble with Protoss, but I almost refuse to play Zerg.

zapvor
07-29-2010, 07:58 PM
i just started playing zerg recently. every race has their pros and cons. its what makes the game so great

soyizgood
07-29-2010, 08:00 PM
I can't even run the game. I keep getting BSOD. The only hiccup I can guess is it's having problems with my video card. Strange since I heard of people using the nVidia GeForce GT 240 without problems. :confused: I downloaded the latest directx patches and the latest video driver. ARGH! My card is 512MB of DDR5 memory for crying out loud.

I emailed Blizzard. I guess I can tweak settings under dxdiag and the hardware acceleration. Hope that works or else I'll need to buy another video card. Hope not since I just spent $90 on this one.

Jaewonnie
07-29-2010, 08:02 PM
I can't even run the game. I keep getting BSOD. The only hiccup I can guess is it's having problems with my video card. Strange since I heard of people using the nVidia GeForce GT 240 without problems. :confused: I downloaded the latest directx patches and the latest video driver. ARGH!

are the graphics that good? Lol my PC has a Geforce 6400 :lol:

zapvor
07-29-2010, 08:04 PM
damn ok i cant run it then

fundrazer
07-29-2010, 08:18 PM
I think I would have been able to run it, but my laptops gfx card bit the dust. Don't think I'm getting a new computer any time soon either. I loved Starcraft and Warcraft so SC2 was very high on my want to play list, good refreshing change from all the cookie cutter fps games out.

Oh soy, if you've been playing on bnet, what division were you placed into. A lot of guys from another forum I frequent are diamond and are actually playing former wc3 pros. It's pretty amusing.

soyizgood
07-29-2010, 08:19 PM
According to one link, you're out of luck if you have the following cards:

Blizzard lists the most common cards that will not be able to run StarCraft II. They are NVIDIA GeForce 6150, 6200, 7150, 8300, 8400, 9100, 9300 and ATI Radeon Xpress 200, 1150, 1250, X1050, 8500-9600, X300-600.

My card is stronger than those listed, so wtf?!?!

Heck, I even see this advertised:
MSI GeForce GT 240 1GB w/ Starcraft II Trial $60 at Newegg

I took a snapshot of the BSOD: IRQL_NOT_LESS_OR_EQUAL. Blizzard's site says that means I need to update some drivers.

soyizgood
07-29-2010, 08:34 PM
I'll get around to picking it up sooner rather than later. I don't give a hoot about the story mode, I just want to get a few reps in with Terran and a good feel for their new units (and change my tactics to deal with the loss of several units like the firebat and medic) before I take it to Battle.net and start owning everyone in sight.

The reaper replaces the firebat. From what I've seen, the medivac isn't that impressive. Though it's likely less micro to heal the units. The medivac basically combines the medic and drop ship.

FLA10s
07-29-2010, 09:01 PM
The reaper replaces the firebat. From what I've seen, the medivac isn't that impressive. Though it's likely less micro to heal the units. The medivac basically combines the medic and drop ship.

Wow that was so nerdy i almost passed out...

jk, i was hooked on the first game untill i discovered diablo 2 and that game took over my life for a while. this game deff looks worth a try.

btw what took so long for blizzard to finally come out with a second game?

soyizgood
07-29-2010, 09:05 PM
I figured it out. Starcraft 2 doesn't like my PCI sound card. I guess that card will finally R.I.P. though I liked that card. And that card wasn't even that old. $30 SIIG PCI soundwave 7.1 card.

Mansewerz
07-29-2010, 09:06 PM
I'm surprised my PC could run City of heroes. This game must be taxing for you guys

soyizgood
07-29-2010, 09:23 PM
I'm surprised my PC could run City of heroes. This game must be taxing for you guys

Took 3 hours for me to get SC 2 up and running. The install took me about 45 minutes. I was tweaking my directx and video card acceleration to deal with the BSODs. Researched online to confirm my video card could run the game. Then took an educated guess that my old sound card was crashing it (it didn't crash it during the installation though). Now it's running off the integrated sound card. I'm just messing with the tutorials. The game runs fine on my dual-core Athlon II 2.8GHz at least in the tutorial stages.

Mansewerz
07-29-2010, 09:45 PM
Took 3 hours for me to get SC 2 up and running. The install took me about 45 minutes. I was tweaking my directx and video card acceleration to deal with the BSODs. Researched online to confirm my video card could run the game. Then took an educated guess that my old sound card was crashing it (it didn't crash it during the installation though). Now it's running off the integrated sound card. I'm just messing with the tutorials. The game runs fine on my dual-core Athlon II 2.8GHz at least in the tutorial stages.

BSODs? What are those?

GetBetterer
07-29-2010, 10:15 PM
Phase 1 & 2 player. I've had it for 2 days now. ^^ Sign me up!

soyizgood
07-29-2010, 10:21 PM
BSODs? What are those?

BSOD = blue screen of death

soyizgood
07-29-2010, 11:22 PM
Looks like I need a lot of practice. I can't find the right mix of units. I'm way too defensive as well. Just need to watch more SC 2 videos and figure out how to use these units.

ls206
07-30-2010, 12:43 AM
I've never invested much time in starcraft but may pick it up to play with my housemate who also sucks at the game!

FlamEnemY
07-30-2010, 05:13 AM
Ok, I have an interesting question:

I currently can't afford the game, even though I'd gladly buy it. A friend of mine is in the same position, so what happens if we buy one copy together? Is it against the ten holy commandments of Blizzard?

hansolo
07-30-2010, 06:01 AM
Played a few games already and its rocking !

GetBetterer
07-30-2010, 12:02 PM
FlamEnemy:
Ok, I have an interesting question:

I currently can't afford the game, even though I'd gladly buy it. A friend of mine is in the same position, so what happens if we buy one copy together? Is it against the ten holy commandments of Blizzard?

No...but 1 CD Key doesn't work for 2 accounts. One of you guys would have to be logged out for the other player to be able to play. Also, since the new SC2 requires you to have internet for either Single Player or Multiplayer you wouldn't be able to play on the Local Area Network.

soyizgood
07-30-2010, 12:18 PM
FlamEnemy:


No...but 1 CD Key doesn't work for 2 accounts. One of you guys would have to be logged out for the other player to be able to play. Also, since the new SC2 requires you to have internet for either Single Player or Multiplayer you wouldn't be able to play on the Local Area Network.

Basically, 1 license key is directly connected to your battle.net id. When the game is run, it asks you for your battle.net username/password. So if you have an id that is linked to a copy to SC2, then you can sign in to anybody's computer running SC2 with your own id. Sort of like email. But yeah Blizzard checks your copy of the game even if you are playing single player.

I've heard rumblings that Blizzard may include a network play patch to appease the big game networks in S. Korea. That and the hackers will find some way to make a private network possible.

OKUSA
07-30-2010, 06:08 PM
First computer game I bought since wc3:tft like 5 years ago

I've been playing wc3 and counter-strike for a good 10 years, still to me the two best games of their genre ever made

I played a lot of beta, having not ever played broodwar, I got trashed on a lot. I did manage to get a even record by the time it ended though. I didn't try the most recent beta, and I still haven't installed it yet.

GetBetterer
07-30-2010, 08:54 PM
OKUSA:
First computer game I bought since wc3:tft like 5 years ago

I've been playing wc3 and counter-strike for a good 10 years, still to me the two best games of their genre ever made

I played a lot of beta, having not ever played broodwar, I got trashed on a lot. I did manage to get a even record by the time it ended though. I didn't try the most recent beta, and I still haven't installed it yet.

What race do you play? If it's Zerg, Brood War made no difference and SC2 just made it a worse race. Protoss? You keep your Dark Templars and non-AoE Corsair equivalent that's slightly rigged as well.

I played Starcraft 1 > Starcraft 2: Brood War > Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne > World of Warcraft > Quit WoW for a more strategic game: Guild Wars > Starcraft 2 (still playing Guild Wars though since Guild Wars 2 is coming out soon).

How did I get led on to all those games? The advertisements on Battle.net at the top. :( Damn you advertisements! I was so young at the time and I fell for easy adverts so easily. :(

If any of you guys can share our names on Battle.net I would be happy to play with you all and practice.

soyizgood
07-30-2010, 09:09 PM
OKUSA:


What race do you play? If it's Zerg, Brood War made no difference and SC2 just made it a worse race. Protoss? You keep your Dark Templars and non-AoE Corsair equivalent that's slightly rigged as well.

I played Starcraft 1 > Starcraft 2: Brood War > Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne > World of Warcraft > Quit WoW for a more strategic game: Guild Wars > Starcraft 2 (still playing Guild Wars though since Guild Wars 2 is coming out soon).

How did I get led on to all those games? The advertisements on Battle.net at the top. :( Damn you advertisements! I was so young at the time and I fell for easy adverts so easily. :(

If any of you guys can share our names on Battle.net I would be happy to play with you all and practice.

I'm superflySOY. I need some serious practice with the AI before I'm ready..LOL So far I can only beat the AI on easy mode. :(

GetBetterer
07-30-2010, 09:49 PM
soyizgood:
I'm superflySOY. I need some serious practice with the AI before I'm ready..LOL So far I can only beat the AI on easy mode.

I'm on vacation, but when I get back I'll help you out. ^^

RyanRF
07-30-2010, 10:01 PM
Just bought it this morning. If you've played SC1 at all this game will feel really familiar, but it has enough new stuff to keep old fans interested.

I'm interested much more in the multiplayer than single player, and so far I'm enjoying it. Been playing all afternoon. Bnet placed me in gold league, and I have about 7 games under my belt so far.

FlamEnemY
07-30-2010, 11:27 PM
FlamEnemy:


No...but 1 CD Key doesn't work for 2 accounts. One of you guys would have to be logged out for the other player to be able to play. Also, since the new SC2 requires you to have internet for either Single Player or Multiplayer you wouldn't be able to play on the Local Area Network.

Thanks GetBetterer and soyizgood, I knew about the battle.net ID issue but wasn't sure if Blizzard actually allows different users to use it. So there is hope after all :)

GetBetterer
07-30-2010, 11:34 PM
RyanRF:
I'm interested much more in the multiplayer than single player, and so far I'm enjoying it. Been playing all afternoon. Bnet placed me in gold league, and I have about 7 games under my belt so far.

Meh. Gold = the new silver (that's bad).

Plus, Brood War was useless for Zerg & Terran.

Terran: Lost Valkyrie + Medic
Zerg: Lost Lurker + Devourer

Protoss: Kept DTs + Corsair (lost AoE but has shoot-while-moving -_-)

OKUSA
07-31-2010, 01:07 AM
I think I just got into gold before I stopped, (back when plat was the best)

I play as terran, reaper harrass vs protoss at any level below diamond is a certain win it seems like. I do love to do medic+marine+marauder (with vikings if there are void rays)

I actually don't see many zergs, but I feel m+m+m does well.

although I haven't played in almost 2 months so that might actually not work anymore due to patches

GetBetterer
07-31-2010, 01:43 AM
OKUSA:
I actually don't see many zergs, but I feel m+m+m does well.

Really? I'm a Zerg guy, and I see a ton of Zergs out there. It is the hardest (and best) race to master.

Plus, M/M/M is not best against Zerg. Mech. is, and Terran Mech. is the only build that requires me to get Roaches, other races it's Zerglings and Hydralisks with Infestors only. Against Terran Mech. I have to add a dash of roaches with either Glial Reconstitution (if they bring a detector) or Tunneling Claws (if they don't bring detectors).

soyizgood
07-31-2010, 11:26 AM
RyanRF:


Meh. Gold = the new silver (that's bad).

Plus, Brood War was useless for Zerg & Terran.

Terran: Lost Valkyrie + Medic
Zerg: Lost Lurker + Devourer

Protoss: Kept DTs + Corsair (lost AoE but has shoot-while-moving -_-)

The protoss have all the good stuff. Mothership, carriers, colossus, void rays, dark templar, high templar, stalker, sentry, archon, etc.

The zerg didn't get anything eye-popping for SC 2. Roaches are good, but they don't have the lurker or defiler anymore. Infestor is a bit overrated. Baneling I guess is okay but probably better early to mid game. Changeling is a stupid add-on. The queen is rather weak.

Terran got marauder (sloooow), thor (even slower), viking (maybe an upgrade over wraith but not particularly devastating), banshee (can only attack ground units), reaper (firebat replacement and is weak unless you stock up on them). Still has battlecruiser at least.

soyizgood
07-31-2010, 11:30 AM
I ran speedtest on my new TW internet service.

29 Mbps down, 1 Mbps up. Not bad considering I paid for 10 Mbps down. :twisted: Blows AT&T DSL (2-2.5 Mbps down) away.

fundrazer
07-31-2010, 06:26 PM
Hmm, judging from your comments I'm guessing you aren't too familiar with the current SC2 builds and such. Many of the protoss units you say are "cool" aren't actually being used much because they aren't viable for strategies right now. Not that they're not powerful but they just don't fit in with how protoss has to play right now.

For zerg and terran, well blings are good and the queen is probably the most important part of zerg right now. Her macro mechanic is just too good when used correctly. All the terran units you mentioned are seeing a lot of use in diamond level play

OKUSA
07-31-2010, 09:05 PM
I also watched a few replays recently, and it seems a lot of terrans use ghosts against protoss. When I was playing this was just getting into use, I remember seeing a thread on teamliquid about it and back then it looked viable but I see it's a must now

fundrazer
07-31-2010, 09:17 PM
Ahh, you frequent TL. That is very good okusa, especially if you want to improve. I haven't even played SC2 yet, my laptop gpu bit the dust and replacing it wouldn't make sense. However I've done enough watching/reading to understand some of the current metagame. Ghost EMP is invaluable against protoss, it can really cripple protoss units when used effectively.

Btw if you've been playing online, what division were you placed into? I'm also assume you're playing as terran. If you can micro decently enough try some reaper harass against protoss. If the toss didn't go early stalkers you can really do some damage to probes and structures. Good harass should crush people in lower divisions, obviously the better guys can deal with it.

soyizgood
07-31-2010, 09:54 PM
Hmm, judging from your comments I'm guessing you aren't too familiar with the current SC2 builds and such. Many of the protoss units you say are "cool" aren't actually being used much because they aren't viable for strategies right now. Not that they're not powerful but they just don't fit in with how protoss has to play right now.

For zerg and terran, well blings are good and the queen is probably the most important part of zerg right now. Her macro mechanic is just too good when used correctly. All the terran units you mentioned are seeing a lot of use in diamond level play

I'm no expert on build orders, hence I suck. I just figured out how to build a battlecruiser if that tells you how much I have to learn. It seems I'm comfortable using marines, marauders, thors, siege tanks, banshees, and vikings. I'll need practice using hunter seeker missiles, but I'll see if I can mix in some battlecruisers. I'm a slow starter in that I build up basic defenses at my natural expansion before advancing. I do that in case my main force is wiped out.

I played my first novice multiplayer match. If I knew how much of a noob this guy was I could have won this 15 minutes sooner. A noob playing protoss is just bad. He said he had not played starcraft in months, but his tacical errors were so noob-like. I rammed him when I realized he had limited air. He had a couple of phoenixes and void rays which I took out easily. And he only had a handful of melee forces. He didn't even break his own rocks, so he never scouted my area. He probably played SC 1 more than I did. Thors and siege tanks kick butt!

From the videos I saw, the queen is of limited value for defense and spawning larvae. I've seen replays of players having 4-5 queens and still lose. Zerg is probably the funnest to play, but it requires a bit of micro. The protoss seems to be a more defensive race at first and then unleashes it fury in the late game. The moment the protoss put together 7-8 carriers the game is over.

fundrazer
07-31-2010, 10:15 PM
If it took you that long to figure out the guy was a noob then I'm guessing you didn't scout him out. Scouting your opponents base is very important, also important to sometimes keep a worker by the watch towers. Knowing where his army is placed around the map is very very useful. Regarding the queen, from what I'm hearing on the korean ladder Zerg is "overpowered" at the moment while on euro/american scene it's completely different. The sole reason is the spawn larvae mechanic, koreans are amazing and understand when to use it for most advantage.

Oh and most games aren't getting to late game for stuff like carriers. Sure if you played a noob you could roflstomp with carriers but rushing is probably more effective. Although I agree protoss is sometimes forced on the defensive, especially against reaper harass. It can be tough for them to deal with it.

soyizgood
07-31-2010, 10:40 PM
If it took you that long to figure out the guy was a noob then I'm guessing you didn't scout him out. Scouting your opponents base is very important, also important to sometimes keep a worker by the watch towers. Knowing where his army is placed around the map is very very useful. Regarding the queen, from what I'm hearing on the korean ladder Zerg is "overpowered" at the moment while on euro/american scene it's completely different. The sole reason is the spawn larvae mechanic, koreans are amazing and understand when to use it for most advantage.

Oh and most games aren't getting to late game for stuff like carriers. Sure if you played a noob you could roflstomp with carriers but rushing is probably more effective. Although I agree protoss is sometimes forced on the defensive, especially against reaper harass. It can be tough for them to deal with it.

On this map, rocks separated each other. The only way I was able to scout him was by air. I suppose I could have used a scan, but the fact he didn't even destroy his rocks told me he wasn't prepared for my forces. I looked at the replay and OMG he was not on top of things. He played using a laptop, but I'm going to assume he used an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse. His main ground forces were a handful of zealots, sentrys, and a few stalkers. He built 4 phoenixes and a few photon cannons.

The map allowed each side to build 2 natural expansions while protected by the rocks. When I saw that he foolishly didn't even build a nexus for his natural expansion I knew I had him. Instead of putting a nexus, he put a pylon! I came in with 2 thors, two banshees, 2 siege tanks, a few vikings, 2 medivacs, a good 10+ marauders and a few marines. I forgot to pull my 3rd thor and another banshee into the action, but it didn't matter.

soyizgood
07-31-2010, 11:06 PM
How do you record SC 2 games and upload them on youtube?

dave333
07-31-2010, 11:36 PM
I haven't played but I heard Zerg is like Terran in BW: very powerful, but you really need the high APM/skill, they are on the difficult side. Meanwhile, Terran is supposed to be relatively easy (MMM, easy reaper harass, and such). Koreans are wrecking with zerg though lol.

I was a Zerg in BW, but it does seem Zerg is going to need more creativity/skill this time around since Zerg units seem even more underwhelming this time around and the queens add some additional macro needed.

The unit composition needed to break down the MMM deathball is crazy, you need so many kinds of units, and then good army organization to break it down.

soyizgood
07-31-2010, 11:43 PM
I'm a cheapo. Anything I can use to capture video for free? Fraps looks good, but it costs $37.

GetBetterer
08-01-2010, 12:25 AM
All recording programs are expensive, but you only need to buy them once. Otherwise, you can only record with poor quality, or for a short time if you get the legal, free version.
================================================== =============================
Don't mention TL, those admins & mods never read through an entire post or even thread. They need to get better mods.

soy, I understand you're completely new and I will soon be able to help you. You don't need a recording program for us to see your replays, if you're trying to do that.

I'm a Korean and yes, Zerg is seen as OP if you can handle the APM requirements. Reasons:

1. vs. Terran - We can easily Fast Expand and still have a good army. Lots of people complain about Terran mech. but Zerglings & Hydralisks with a good surround do the job.

2. vs. Zerg = APM battle

3. vs. Protoss = 2 Gate rush? Denied with ONE Spine Crawler. 4 Gate Push? Denied with Hydralisks and Flanks on your small army.

OKUSA
08-01-2010, 12:48 AM
Ahh, you frequent TL. That is very good okusa, especially if you want to improve. I haven't even played SC2 yet, my laptop gpu bit the dust and replacing it wouldn't make sense. However I've done enough watching/reading to understand some of the current metagame. Ghost EMP is invaluable against protoss, it can really cripple protoss units when used effectively.

Btw if you've been playing online, what division were you placed into? I'm also assume you're playing as terran. If you can micro decently enough try some reaper harass against protoss. If the toss didn't go early stalkers you can really do some damage to probes and structures. Good harass should crush people in lower divisions, obviously the better guys can deal with it.

I haven't installed it yet, but before I stopped playing the first beta I just hit gold league back when plat was highest. I am not good at all, I just think I used better strategies that I basically stole from top players. My micro is decent as I played a lot of wc3 in my day, and my scouting is also decent. But, I don't have the timing or macro that good players have, basically I can control my army good but when it comes to controlling my army, buildings, expos, and scouting I lack that skill very much. I'm an fps player, it's much easier for me

I probably won't even play much sc2 to be honest, I still love to play counter-strike and it's still going strong on the international scene so there's no hurry for me to play rts

soyizgood
08-01-2010, 05:34 PM
I finally defeated the AI in medium mode. Granted it was TvT but a small step in the right direction. I still need to try to do drops (that and actually buy Medivacs), but my Thor-Marine-Marauder-Siege Tank-Banshee combo worked. I still am a bit defensive but at least I did well to fortify my expanded zone, ambushed the AI that was attacking me, then went from defense to offense. I don't really see any point in getting helion unless it's for early harassment. The Viking is just a waste if the enemy hasn't built up air.

GetBetterer
08-02-2010, 09:14 AM
The standard Terran build order is:

10 Supply Depot
12 Barracks
13 Refinery

You can get a Factory to whatever you want from there. ^^

OKUSA
08-02-2010, 10:44 AM
hellions work well against zerg in the beginning to harass the economy before the queen comes out and possibly the expansion

Claudius
08-02-2010, 01:17 PM
I'm just starting to learn.....and I'm wondering why it takes so long to build up your forces (minerals, vespene gas get used up too quickly, too many supply depots needed). More fighting and less building would be nice. Maybe Im doing something wrong...

Juges8932
08-02-2010, 01:55 PM
I went and got this at midnight lol. Been playing it a decent amount. It's fun. I like it a lot. The original is my favorite game of all-time. Definitely a great game.

I always play random, but Zerg is definitely my best race, followed by Protoss, and then Terran; much like in the original. I love the Zerg. Can't really stand Terran, but whenever I play games, I always want/like to be well-rounded with all races/characters.

Hot Sauce
08-02-2010, 03:05 PM
Name: dePyloN
Code: 476

Plat right now, was up to Diamond 16 in beta.

GetBetterer
08-02-2010, 05:55 PM
Claudius:
I'm just starting to learn.....and I'm wondering why it takes so long to build up your forces (minerals, vespene gas get used up too quickly, too many supply depots needed). More fighting and less building would be nice. Maybe Im doing something wrong...

Are you sure you're building you workers correctly? We can help you out about that.

Also, I know a ventrilo server we can use. ^^

OKUSA
08-02-2010, 06:11 PM
starcraft is a game focused heavily on macro, which is why i never really got into it playing or spectating. warcraft 3 is a game based around a lot of fights, and less macro (because of the food limitations, 100 max supply vs 200 in sc, and the fact that the more supply you get the less resources you make)

TnTBigman
08-02-2010, 07:13 PM
I see some of you players mention zern and toss. I thought these races were not included in the SC2 WoL release? Or is it just the campagins for these two races were not included in the $60 release? I apprecieate any clarification. thx.

As some mentioned the original SC and Brood War expansion :D , Zerg is the easiest to play with. Toss can be overwhelming when teched up and the users knows how to used the tech/research properly. I least like to play against Terran.....tanks and nukes can demoralize me easily.

soyizgood
08-02-2010, 07:43 PM
I see some of you players mention zern and toss. I thought these races were not included in the SC2 WoL release? Or is it just the campagins for these two races were not included in the $60 release? I apprecieate any clarification. thx.

As some mentioned the original SC and Brood War expansion :D , Zerg is the easiest to play with. Toss can be overwhelming when teched up and the users knows how to used the tech/research properly. I least like to play against Terran.....tanks and nukes can demoralize me easily.

SC 2 campaigns center around terran, but there are a couple of campaigns for protoss. You can play any of the races in multiplayer or vs AI in custom mode.

soyizgood
08-02-2010, 08:08 PM
alias: superflySOY
code: 312

fundrazer
08-02-2010, 09:51 PM
Man TnT your post is just full of silliness. Wings of Liberty includes the terran single player campaign but all 3 races can be used for multiplayer...what would be the point with only terran??? Oh and Zerg as the easiest race to play? You must be joking or just simply don't know much about the game, Zerg is the most difficult to play but very strong in the hands of good player.

Juges8932
08-02-2010, 10:03 PM
I've played Starcraft, Warcraft 3: Frozen Throne, and now Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty.

They each were great in their own ways. SC and SC II were obviously great in a pretty similar way, but Starcraft ranks higher for me due to nostalgia and how great it was for its' time. SC II was certainly not a 12-year improvement on the first one, particularly how ****** the interface is (I mean no chat channels? Come on). However, it is easy to see why it took so long to make. Diablo II and its' expansion in 2000 and '01, respectively; Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos came out in '02, Warcraft III: Frozen Throne in '03, World of Warcraft in '04, WoW: BC in '07, WoW: WotLK in '08 and the next WoW xpac is coming out this year as well. So they have certainly been busy, and with the huge popularity and uproar of WoW, it is no mystery that they concentrated all their attention, focus, and money into milk that cash-cow for everything that it is worth, lol. Not to mention, Blizzard can't hold on to their initial 'release date' for anything, much less the next 5 they throw out there, lol.

What they do put out though, is great. They take a lot of time on their games, and it shows. Their games are really well balanced and fun to play.

I was best at WCIII, being ranked at the top 1000 at one point- highest ranking being 889, if I remember correctly. However, on Starcraft, I didn't play ladder very much, and mostly played money maps, lol. I was good at that, but not very good at the ladder in turn (even though I didn't play it much), which is what matters most in-terms of game mastery. I also liked playing a lot of the UMS games on SC and WCIII. WCIII I loved the ladder though and never played the money maps, except for one time, and for some reason never liked them. I am trying to get good at SCII, but am not doing so hot right now (.500 win pct). Occasionally I go up a few matches above .500 or a couple below. I don't like looking up strategies, as I find figuring out that stuff on your own to be rewarding and part of the fun. But yeah, good times so far; I am enjoying the game.

soyizgood
08-02-2010, 11:14 PM
The planet with the infested terrans, Meinhoff, is a fairly hard campaign. Those things are everywhere at night led by those aberration zerg things. I'm thinking I need to make 2 attack groups to destroy all those infested buildings. I used one while relying on my machine gun bunkers as my main defense. Any advice for me?

GetBetterer
08-02-2010, 11:41 PM
soyizgood:
The planet with the infested terrans, Meinhoff, is a fairly hard campaign. Those things are everywhere at night led by those aberration zerg things. I'm thinking I need to make 2 attack groups to destroy all those infested buildings. I used one while relying on my machine gun bunkers as my main defense. Any advice for me?

Block off the entrances with a Barracks or something and a Tech Lab, as well as a Supply Depot (I remember on one of the entrances I needed a Supply Depot to fully wall-off). Attack from behind using Marines, and for the Infested Terrans just lift off for a quick second and go.

I'm almost off of my vacation, so I'll come help you when I can. :)

TnTBigman
08-03-2010, 05:02 AM
Man TnT your post is just full of silliness. Wings of Liberty includes the terran single player campaign but all 3 races can be used for multiplayer...what would be the point with only terran??? Oh and Zerg as the easiest race to play? You must be joking or just simply don't know much about the game, Zerg is the most difficult to play but very strong in the hands of good player.

I just wanted some clarification. I've been reading lots of reviews (good and bad) about the SC2 release. Most of the upset ones rant that only Terran campagin was given in the $60 purchase. Nothing silly in seeking some clarification.
I've been playing since 1999 and took part in multiple LAN tournaments when I was attending University. Zerg for me is the easierst to play with as you can overwhelm your opponents with your numbers (provided you have acquired multiple expansions). So I know much about the game.

GetBetterer
08-03-2010, 10:35 AM
You can't overwhelm anything with Zerg anymore.

Just look at the food costs, here is what happens:

1 (Drone)
1 (Zerglings)
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
6

It's pretty bad...

Lover
08-03-2010, 11:15 AM
I'm seriously interested in buying this. Can't stand WOW anymore, and since I love Blizzard's games.

I wonder if anyone could sent me a guest key? Is it possible for any of you guys? :D

Hot Sauce
08-03-2010, 01:23 PM
You can't overwhelm anything with Zerg anymore.

Just look at the food costs, here is what happens:

1 (Drone)
1 (Zerglings)
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
2
6

It's pretty bad...

Yes you can.

GetBetterer
08-03-2010, 02:57 PM
Hot_Sauce:
Yes you can.

'Twas exaggeration that confused the beast.

I ALWAYS surround any Terran, Zerg or Protoss opponent because Terran and Protoss lack the mobility we can.

Hot Sauce
08-03-2010, 10:28 PM
Hot_Sauce:


'Twas exaggeration that confused the beast.

I ALWAYS surround any Terran, Zerg or Protoss opponent because Terran and Protoss lack the mobility we can.

Want to play? :D

GetBetterer
08-04-2010, 12:05 AM
As soon as I get back from my vacation, hell yeah. I have to go buy it too though. ^^

soyizgood
08-05-2010, 06:20 PM
I tried playing protoss last night vs terran AI. It feels a bit weird and the hotkeys have different letters, but protoss units even in smaller numbers can overpower terran. And I still don't even know how to warp in units with the warp prism or warp to regular pylons. I built 3 colossuses though. I'll try zerg soon.

fundrazer
08-05-2010, 08:02 PM
^^If the terran is half decent he isn't going to have trouble early against protoss. He'll wall off his ramp likely so you cant touch him and go something like marauders which with concussive shot **** zealots. Not to mention reapers can be a huge pain in the butt unless you went an early stalker which is standard right now.

Juges8932
08-05-2010, 08:30 PM
I tried playing protoss last night vs terran AI. It feels a bit weird and the hotkeys have different letters, but protoss units even in smaller numbers can overpower terran. And I still don't even know how to warp in units with the warp prism or warp to regular pylons. I built 3 colossuses though. I'll try zerg soon.

You have to upgrade 'warp gates' at the 'cybernetics core', which requires a gateway. Once the upgrade is finished, you click on the gateways and click warp gate in bottom left. Then, you can 'warp' units into play without having to wait for them to 'build'. The 'proxy' pylon or warp prism thing are so you can warp units in at particular locations, but you need the field to be able to warp them in to play.

Hot Sauce
08-06-2010, 03:14 AM
Add me if you want to play :D

dePyloN
476

soyizgood
08-11-2010, 06:53 PM
I just played my 2nd beginner's multi-player match. This time I won in 19 minutes. My opponent was a protoss.

I used the scan feature to see that he was not as far along in military as me. He had no photo cannons, so I built up on banshees for early attack. My 1st strike was VERY successful as I took out a couple of pylons and most of his probes. I scooted off before his stalkers could strike. He then sent a small force into the middle of the field that ran into my forces. Two scuffles that I won. Repaired my banshees, researched cloak but it wasn't necessary. He defended his entrance with stalkers, so I moved my banshees around so I could kill off his remaining probes. That forced him to GG.

So I think I am getting more comfortable with terran. I didn't have to build up much for defense and the quick strike by the banshees was all that I really needed. :)

GetBetterer
08-11-2010, 06:59 PM
Nice job soy, when you get super professional you'll join the Zerg. ^^

dave333
08-11-2010, 08:42 PM
Scouting is everything in SC1, I assume the same is so in SC2.

Still need to buy this game...I'm excited about zerg though. Hydras are super beefed, the queens are a very cool addition too.

Hot Sauce
08-11-2010, 09:09 PM
I just played my 2nd beginner's multi-player match. This time I won in 19 minutes. My opponent was a protoss.

I used the scan feature to see that he was not as far along in military as me. He had no photo cannons, so I built up on banshees for early attack. My 1st strike was VERY successful as I took out a couple of pylons and most of his probes. I scooted off before his stalkers could strike. He then sent a small force into the middle of the field that ran into my forces. Two scuffles that I won. Repaired my banshees, researched cloak but it wasn't necessary. He defended his entrance with stalkers, so I moved my banshees around so I could kill off his remaining probes. That forced him to GG.

So I think I am getting more comfortable with terran. I didn't have to build up much for defense and the quick strike by the banshees was all that I really needed. :)

Nicely done. Banshee harass is very common in PvP. If you like harassing, Terran is the race for you. Reapers, thorships, dropships, banshees, ghosts, vikings, siege tanks - all incredible for harassing.

Hot Sauce
08-11-2010, 09:10 PM
Scouting is everything in SC1, I assume the same is so in SC2.

Still need to buy this game...I'm excited about zerg though. Hydras are super beefed, the queens are a very cool addition too.

Absolutely. Scouting is nine-tenths of the law.

soyizgood
08-11-2010, 09:31 PM
Scouting is everything in SC1, I assume the same is so in SC2.

Still need to buy this game...I'm excited about zerg though. Hydras are super beefed, the queens are a very cool addition too.

I got humbled by a zerg player. He did not play like a beginner. He boobie trapped my attacking force by burrowing. Then he attacked with a bunch of roaches and quite a few ultralisks. He built 322 units compared to my 67. Granted I expanded late, but that opponent should be playing leagues, not the beginner level.

soyizgood
08-11-2010, 10:00 PM
OMG I played a co-op game. My teammate was a JERK. He didn't come to my aid when I needed help, he loaded up on zealots and archons which were just massacred. Then when I basically clobber one of the AI, my ally turns against me and starts wrecking up my structures. Ruined a good game. Ugh!

soyizgood
08-13-2010, 08:11 PM
I guess I'll plunk down the cash for fraps. I've tried free alternatives and they all suck.

dave333
08-13-2010, 08:19 PM
Just bought my copy today, played it for the first time.

I zerg and I find it both harder and easier. It is a lot more intensive now since now you gotta use queens to keep up the larva and you need to do all this creep spreading and stuff. Also, lings aren't what they used to be as an early game unit, and I definitely struggle the most early game defending with just lings and maybe a spine. Once I get mutas it gets a lot easier thanks to the harass/contain, and then finally ultras are real good.

soyizgood
08-13-2010, 10:51 PM
When playing co-op, the AI is much nastier in 3 vs AI than in 2 vs AI, even on easy level.

soyizgood
08-15-2010, 09:13 AM
I feel like an idiot, but finally a light bulb hit me on the head (more like a SC 2 tip provided by the game). I wasn't producing enough SCVs to optimize collecting minerals. I upped my collection and whooped the AI in medium difficulty. :) Now I need to do this in multiplayer. I knew 3 SCVs was the optimal limit for geysers, but didn't know that was also the number for each mineral field. DOH!

fundrazer
08-15-2010, 10:17 AM
3 is a bit much per mineral patch I think. I believe it's closer to something like 2.4 workers per patch = saturated base. Also you one of the best things to focus on if you're a sc noob. Never stop producing workers. Then whenever you expo take a bunch of workers from your main and just run em over to the expansion. Helps to get both bases saturated faster = more money = you will probably outmacro noobier opponents.

GetBetterer
08-15-2010, 11:51 AM
fundrazer:
3 is a bit much per mineral patch I think. I believe it's closer to something like 2.4 workers per patch = saturated base. Also you one of the best things to focus on if you're a sc noob. Never stop producing workers. Then whenever you expo take a bunch of workers from your main and just run em over to the expansion. Helps to get both bases saturated faster = more money = you will probably outmacro noobier opponents.

It depends on the location of the mineral patch. Closer it is to your Command Center, you put 2 on. If it's farther, you put 3 on. However, do note that the one with 3 workers will work in this fashion:

1. Worker #1 gathers.
2. Worker #2 gathers.
3. Worker #2 waits a few milliseconds before gathering, however will get the minerals before Worker #1 returns.

Hot Sauce
08-15-2010, 12:30 PM
fundrazer:


It depends on the location of the mineral patch. Closer it is to your Command Center, you put 2 on. If it's farther, you put 3 on. However, do note that the one with 3 workers will work in this fashion:

1. Worker #1 gathers.
2. Worker #2 gathers.
3. Worker #2 waits a few milliseconds before gathering, however will get the minerals before Worker #1 returns.

Why would your CC be further to the minerals than the regular position?

fundrazer is right, you never want to stop producing workers. This will allow you to transfer workers to your expansion so you can saturate it faster.

I play 1 base, or what some people refer to as "all-in". So I cut probes at about 24.

dave333
08-19-2010, 01:22 PM
Played my placement matches today, ended 4-1 with Platinum. Unfortunately, I missed Diamond by a match that I could've won if I didn't quick so early. My toss opponent killed most of my **** but I had an expo saturated with workers and a corruptor army (like 12). I had like 3k minerals, so I should've just expanded like crazy built a large zergling army since he was basically just using collossus and immortals and I would've killed his base off pretty quick. but i gged and left :/

Also I just saw this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEV9niTmeOU&feature=channel

soooo epic, it is worth the watch. the ending is totally mind blowing.

soyizgood
08-19-2010, 09:38 PM
I play co-ops just to get more familiar and try different tactics. I'm sticking with terran, though I might dabble with Zerg. I just don't feel comfortable playing protoss.

ramseszerg
08-19-2010, 11:12 PM
Brood war is better. Obviously.

Juges8932
08-19-2010, 11:37 PM
24 workers spread out over 8 mineral patches= 3 workers/patch, which is exactly what the game creators recommend themselves. Then 6 more workers over the 2 gas geysers. So 30 workers per base is for optimum efficiency. Sometimes, what they suggest, is at your expansion, just bring 8 workers, one on each mineral patch, and 6 for the gas. Afterwards, once your main base dries up, you can shift the majority to that and the rest to a 3rd expansion. You don't want to have 3 bases operating at maximum efficiency, because that would be 90 workers on each, which is almost half of your production limit. Really, you don't want to have more than 80 workers, and that's a lot, but more reasonable.

However, with the Zerg, it isn't as big of a deal if you overproduce with workers, because when it gets later in the game, if you want to mass produce units after a battle or just open up more production- you can turn those workers into defensive structures. That can come in handy if your opponent attacks you or trying to delay their counter on you and how much damage they can inflict.

fundrazer
08-20-2010, 09:15 AM
Hmm, maybe I confused myself, 2.4 should really be 24 total. I just checked TL and the math supports the 24 workers on minerals. So you're right on that mark juges.

However, your 2nd point I do not agree with. Overproducing workers as zerg can mean losing the game, mainly in the early game. When to drone or make units is something a lot of people struggle with. One of the reasons why Idra occasionally gets rolled by early pressure like reapers. He doesn't have the units to defend with.

Juges8932
08-20-2010, 11:33 AM
However, your 2nd point I do not agree with. Overproducing workers as zerg can mean losing the game, mainly in the early game. When to drone or make units is something a lot of people struggle with. One of the reasons why Idra occasionally gets rolled by early pressure like reapers. He doesn't have the units to defend with.

I was referring to the late-late game, where you are already at your 3rd/4th xpo and you have a bunch of workers. It isn't as big of a deal then- because with Zerg, you can use them to create defensive structures. Where as with Toss/Terran, you are stuck with those workers unless you kill them or send them to get killed.

Yes, obviously in the early stages if you just pump out workers and don't produce attacking units, then yeah lol, you're ****ed. It is good though to produce workers if you have spare $ while you are building up your army. You just have to keep on the queens to spawn larva, etc.

Who is Idra lol? Is that a known player? Sorry, I haven't gone on the SC II forums or anything, so I'm not familiar with the top players currently.

However, what you seem to be alluding to, I agree. Depends the strategy of the opposing player and whether they are a mega harasser/rusher/etc or more counter-punching type. Sometimes, you can gamble and if they don't rush you, then you just leap-frogged them because you can get your economy booming faster and then get tier 2/3 stuff faster and get the W. Typically though, it's not your best bet. In the early stages of the game, you can put up some spine crawlers early to defend the early rush, use your queen, and if need be, workers as well. But then you have to start producing attacking units or you are going to be done if they see what you're going for.

I think an important key with Zerg too is- expanding early. In 1v1, you often times play on a 2v2 map, so you don't have to expand to your natural expansion (For me it depends on my strategy of the game that time). Then you get more larva, spawn another queen at your expansions, hot key hatcheries, and then you have your entire pool of larva there for easy access. Another thing related to that is- you can do the spawn larva on your mini map. So if you are attacking, you can hot key your queens and spawn larva by clicking on the hatcheries on your mini map.

I'm not a strictly Zerg player, though. I always play random since I like to be well-rounded in games. I was like that in the first SC and WCIII as well. I'm sure there are Zerg-only players who know better, but those are just some things I have discovered while playing.

dave333
08-20-2010, 02:44 PM
Zerg has been kinda schmucked right now. It is by far the hardest race to play (seriously, managing your creep, larva, armies, switching between drone and unit production, expanding, etc.) and it has the weakest early game. Also zerg is very reactionary right now, but scouting is too difficult, particuarly against terran who almost always walls in. And of course, terran has the most early game options. reaper harass, hellion harass, rines/rauders, fast rine/tank rush, etc.

IdRa is one of the best zerg players, though he is a bit of a ******. He says he is probably switching to terran, like a lot of top zergs, because there is an imbalance right now.

I played a few of my matches and when I fast expanded, I typically lost. It is what is expected of zerg to do, so stuff like 2 gate and fast reaper/hellion are just bad and either kill your expo. I think it is a lot safer now to expo only after you get some speedling/roaches.

soyizgood
08-20-2010, 04:11 PM
Zerg has been kinda schmucked right now. It is by far the hardest race to play (seriously, managing your creep, larva, armies, switching between drone and unit production, expanding, etc.) and it has the weakest early game. Also zerg is very reactionary right now, but scouting is too difficult, particuarly against terran who almost always walls in. And of course, terran has the most early game options. reaper harass, hellion harass, rines/rauders, fast rine/tank rush, etc.

IdRa is one of the best zerg players, though he is a bit of a ******. He says he is probably switching to terran, like a lot of top zergs, because there is an imbalance right now.

I played a few of my matches and when I fast expanded, I typically lost. It is what is expected of zerg to do, so stuff like 2 gate and fast reaper/hellion are just bad and either kill your expo. I think it is a lot safer now to expo only after you get some speedling/roaches.

I've played co-ops with Zerg players and on a lot of occasions they expanded too early which screwed up our battle. If I have a mutual ramp with a zerg player, I'll play defense to protect the ramp until the Zerg player builds up tech. I have to BEG the Zerg player not to expand so early at times. One tactic worked was when I defended the base until my Zerg partner teched up to Mutalisks and we went from there.

GetBetterer
08-20-2010, 06:16 PM
Hot_Sauce:
Why would your CC be further to the minerals than the regular position?

It wasn't my choice. Some mineral patches are farther back than others.

Going one-base isn't always considered and all-in build. An all-in build is when you do nothing but a quick cheese rush to win. It comes from the gambling term. You can go all in and win a lot, or lose everything.

dave333:
Zerg has been kinda schmucked right now. It is by far the hardest race to play (seriously, managing your creep, larva, armies, switching between drone and unit production, expanding, etc.) and it has the weakest early game. Also zerg is very reactionary right now, but scouting is too difficult, particuarly against terran who almost always walls in. And of course, terran has the most early game options. reaper harass, hellion harass, rines/rauders, fast rine/tank rush, etc.

Sounds like you're making too many Queens. Over here on the Korean servers we've decided that too many Queens are a bad thing, and that it shouldn't necessarily be one per Hatchery. She (I'm assuming here) costs 150 minerals and 2 food and time. She's only really good against air and blocking off your ramp. Her Inject Larvae ability is very useful in the early game, however in the late game unless your entire army dies, it becomes an annoying skill to have because all it does is gather up your larvae that you can't use. Because of this, we thought up about getting only a few, and using them for Transfusions (in-base defense forms) in the late mid-game to late game.

soyizgood:
I have to BEG the Zerg player not to expand so early at times. One tactic worked was when I defended the base until my Zerg partner teched up to Mutalisks and we went from there.

That is a problem now-a-days from Zerg players. They watch too many games of IdrA rather than games from sAviOr (yes he is playing SC2) or Jaedong and somewhat JulyZerg. Fast expanding is only used on larger maps, and are deadly on small maps (and there are small maps in 2 vs 2's). They're only successful if the opponent isn't able to harass as much and get to that "equilibrium" point or exceed that equilibrium point where the economic damage has outdone your loss in the economic battle during your transition to expansions.

fundrazer:
However, your 2nd point I do not agree with. Overproducing workers as zerg can mean losing the game, mainly in the early game. When to drone or make units is something a lot of people struggle with. One of the reasons why Idra occasionally gets rolled by early pressure like reapers. He doesn't have the units to defend with.

I disagree. We get our units 1 - 7 units at a time. We're not Terran, and we're not Protoss so our workers do not have to be built linearly.

fundrazer
08-20-2010, 06:18 PM
Soy, if you're playing 2vs2 online, and playing terran right? Just mass reapers, from what I've heard it's a big problem with team games right now. Reapers just move too quickly and the + dmg to light and buildings...it's just ridiculous. Reapers should be more than enough to pressure while a teammate expos.

soyizgood
08-20-2010, 07:18 PM
Lost a 3 vs medium AI just now because my Zerg ally early expanded without defending his main ramp.

soyizgood
08-20-2010, 07:20 PM
Soy, if you're playing 2vs2 online, and playing terran right? Just mass reapers, from what I've heard it's a big problem with team games right now. Reapers just move too quickly and the + dmg to light and buildings...it's just ridiculous. Reapers should be more than enough to pressure while a teammate expos.

I'll give the reapers a chance just to mess around.

dave333
08-21-2010, 06:44 AM
Hot_Sauce:


It wasn't my choice. Some mineral patches are farther back than others.

Going one-base isn't always considered and all-in build. An all-in build is when you do nothing but a quick cheese rush to win. It comes from the gambling term. You can go all in and win a lot, or lose everything.

dave333:


Sounds like you're making too many Queens. Over here on the Korean servers we've decided that too many Queens are a bad thing, and that it shouldn't necessarily be one per Hatchery. She (I'm assuming here) costs 150 minerals and 2 food and time. She's only really good against air and blocking off your ramp. Her Inject Larvae ability is very useful in the early game, however in the late game unless your entire army dies, it becomes an annoying skill to have because all it does is gather up your larvae that you can't use. Because of this, we thought up about getting only a few, and using them for Transfusions (in-base defense forms) in the late mid-game to late game.

soyizgood:


That is a problem now-a-days from Zerg players. They watch too many games of IdrA rather than games from sAviOr (yes he is playing SC2) or Jaedong and somewhat JulyZerg. Fast expanding is only used on larger maps, and are deadly on small maps (and there are small maps in 2 vs 2's). They're only successful if the opponent isn't able to harass as much and get to that "equilibrium" point or exceed that equilibrium point where the economic damage has outdone your loss in the economic battle during your transition to expansions.

fundrazer:


I disagree. We get our units 1 - 7 units at a time. We're not Terran, and we're not Protoss so our workers do not have to be built linearly.

Now that is very interesting. I heard korean players were faring a lot better with zerg and this certainly seems to be eye opening. So instead of more queens, just building more hatcheries? Definitely something I'll try out. And it does sound like that would allow for better management of economy/army/creep spreading. I've also recently found I do best when I don't expand at 14/15/16 and instead in the low 20s with speedlings, since everyone just loves to do early aggression against zerg.

I need to try to watch some more korean zerg players; yes I have been watching mostly idra/dimaga/artosis and their style of play has been what I've been trying to emulate.

fundrazer
08-21-2010, 08:38 AM
^^He doesn't necessarily mean build more hatcheries. From what I hear most korean players are going 1base builds with their god given ability to micro like crazy. Dunno what their zergs are doing but I think the terrans are going early reaper builds while protoss are going 4 warpgate rushes. Of course you'll still see some variations.

Oh and don't just try to play like idra and friends, find a style that works for you! When I played wc3 I would watch replays of all the top human players like ToD Insom and Sky, but would always try to mix and meld some of their strategies. Oh and Check is a good korean zerg, check out some of his stuff.

GetBetterer
08-21-2010, 12:23 PM
dave333:
Now that is very interesting. I heard korean players were faring a lot better with zerg and this certainly seems to be eye opening. So instead of more queens, just building more hatcheries? Definitely something I'll try out. And it does sound like that would allow for better management of economy/army/creep spreading. I've also recently found I do best when I don't expand at 14/15/16 and instead in the low 20s with speedlings, since everyone just loves to do early aggression against zerg.

The message I was trying to get out was this:

You get 6 drones now, and they gather 5 minerals instead of 4 drones and 8 minerals as you did in Starcraft 1.

The problem with this is that your expansions are limited. If you want to saturate all of your expansions against a Terran wall-off, you need to have like 100 workers which is 100/200 food. This gives the problem of your army being small. For Terran and Protoss, because they don't expand as much as we do, it's not a problem.

However, because we expand a lot, and we need to (Hatcheries make Larva, Larva make units), it brings out the fact that we should get Hatcheries instead of Queens.

Queens cost 2 food, so if you get one for every Hatchery, you could essentially be getting 10 food worth of Queens by the late game, which is a waste of food in your army.

Most people don't "see" this (not the correct word really) because all they see is "whoa, I'm almost at my food cap, I should get more Overlords" but Overlords will max. you out at 200 no matter how many Overlords you get.

fundrazer:
^^He doesn't necessarily mean build more hatcheries. From what I hear most korean players are going 1base builds with their god given ability to micro like crazy. Dunno what their zergs are doing but I think the terrans are going early reaper builds while protoss are going 4 warpgate rushes. Of course you'll still see some variations.

It's not "exactly" what I meant, but in the late game, you don't want to have TOO many drones either. Because of that, you should place down some Hatcheries at places you eventually plan on expanding to after you get around 3 expansions saturated (saturation being 2 drones on each mineral patch, 3 on each gas).

However, one thing that commonly did come to our Zerg minds naturally is this:

1. I can't always use my Queen's Spawn Larvae ability. Yeah there's that backspace method, but when will your Queen's all have 25 energy? When will you be able to do that in the middle of a battle when you need to control your units? You can't. So, get 2 Hatcheries at that location (even if you're not mining there anymore) so your Queen can use more energy.

2. Tell your "fast expanding" allies to stop fast expanding unless it's a map the size of Andromeda from SC1.

3. IdrA hasn't been fast expanding in his most recent games.

4. HDstarcraft uploaded games of Check (aka 곰돌이) employing some very good strategies. The extra Hatchery thing is something he did, and he's a very fast thinker (you'll see a match of him "Proxy Hatching" and winning, sorry for spoiling).

Hot Sauce
08-21-2010, 02:25 PM
Hot_Sauce:


It wasn't my choice. Some mineral patches are farther back than others.

Going one-base isn't always considered and all-in build. An all-in build is when you do nothing but a quick cheese rush to win. It comes from the gambling term. You can go all in and win a lot, or lose everything.



Where are there mineral patches further from the CC/Nexus/Hatch than others?

And no, quick cheese is not the only thing considered an all-in. Don't make it absolute. For example, when you're on 1 base and your opponent is on 2 and has saturated his natural. You have to either drop down your own expo (which will be late), or you can go for an all-in push. So I will have to disagree with you on that because quick cheese is not the only all-in build. In fact, really crafty players have quick cheese builds that they can transition from into a macro game.

Hot Sauce
08-21-2010, 02:29 PM
dave333:
3. IdrA hasn't been fast expanding in his most recent games.

4. HDstarcraft uploaded games of Check (aka 곰돌이) employing some very good strategies. The extra Hatchery thing is something he did, and he's a very fast thinker (you'll see a match of him "Proxy Hatching" and winning, sorry for spoiling).

Love CheckPrime! My buddy switched over from Toss to Zerg just because he loves Check's style of play so much. Haha.

And you're right, Idra has not FE recently.

GetBetterer
08-21-2010, 03:22 PM
http://www.sc2blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/yellowcrystals.JPG

One of these is not like the other.

Hot_Sauce:
And no, quick cheese is not the only thing considered an all-in. Don't make it absolute. For example, when you're on 1 base and your opponent is on 2 and has saturated his natural. You have to either drop down your own expo (which will be late), or you can go for an all-in push. So I will have to disagree with you on that because quick cheese is not the only all-in build. In fact, really crafty players have quick cheese builds that they can transition from into a macro game.

True, but the one-base build is like the square. It can be a rectangle, but a rectangle can't be a square. A square can however be a rectangle, if you guys understand that analogy.

fundrazer
08-21-2010, 08:31 PM
I think we are also confusing terms. Cheesing is something relatively easy to pull off yet difficult to counter effectively. An allin may not be cheese but if your attack doesn't significantly damage/destroy your opponent you're left at to much of a disadvantage.

dave333
08-21-2010, 08:49 PM
Was just watching some of the check games from HDstarcraft and DAMN he is good. The check vs. justfake game was freaking unbelievable, so close and the end was just right to the wire.

soyizgood
08-22-2010, 10:05 AM
Played a 2v2 practice match. T+Z vs the guys that were T+P.

My Zerg teammate was slow in building up forces, so I fortified our rock barrier with tanks, bunkers, and turrets. Then after scanning the Terran enemy I built up 7 cloaked banshees. I destroyed the terran's main command center and the terran high-yield expansion before the protoss came with phoenixes.

My ally loaded up on roaches and mutalisks. The one main battle was a complete butt-kicking by us. I still had the banshees. Had a ton of marines and marauders, a few thors, 3 battlecruisers. The enemy protoss was dumb. He had a mothership, only 1 colossus, one carrier to lead the melee units. I barely lost anything in that scuffle as the enemy terran didn't even siege his tanks to support his forces during the battle. :)

RoddickRook
08-22-2010, 04:27 PM
Didn't know fellow tennis players play StarCraft 2 as well lol.

If anyone wants to play sometime:
Wrangler#499

soyizgood
08-22-2010, 06:17 PM
Didn't know fellow tennis players play StarCraft 2 as well lol.

If anyone wants to play sometime:
Wrangler#499

Until I left knee heals up, I'll be getting acquainted with the game.

GetBetterer
08-22-2010, 06:26 PM
Tennis players are skilled in various games, video and physical.

dave333
08-23-2010, 07:23 AM
I'm not sure how skilled I actually am lol. I thought my APM wasn't that bad, but I just started watching replays and it averages at 80-90? lol the beginning it's super low and it's low during a lot of stuff, but later on, especially during muta micro and attacking/defending it's like in the 300s.

I'm platinum btw. Some of the people i play have like sub 40 APM. One guy averaged like 20. But I guess one needs a higher APM in original starcraft vs. starcraft 2 since now a lot more things are automatic.

fundrazer
08-23-2010, 09:37 AM
From what I've read dave, apm in sc2 is measured in game time, which is quicker than real time? I forget, but anyways, I think your actual apm is higher than shown. Naturally given the updates to the UI a higher apm isn't as necessary as you mentioned but it still helps. Just reminded me too, have you guys seen razer's sc2 gear. It seems really gimmicky and unnecessary and too much $$, but they have a mouse and keyboard that light up and change colors to your apm.

GetBetterer
08-23-2010, 03:41 PM
fundrazer:
From what I've read dave, apm in sc2 is measured in game time, which is quicker than real time? I forget, but anyways, I think your actual apm is higher than shown. Naturally given the updates to the UI a higher apm isn't as necessary as you mentioned but it still helps. Just reminded me too, have you guys seen razer's sc2 gear. It seems really gimmicky and unnecessary and too much $$, but they have a mouse and keyboard that light up and change colors to your apm.

In-game time on "Faster" is...faster. -_-

"Normal" = 1 second.

fundrazer
08-23-2010, 05:10 PM
I was referring to the topic discussed in threads such as this one
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=136285

When it tracks your apm it tracks it via game time which is faster. I don't understand why getbeterer felt the need to quote me regarding it. Basically your actual apm tracked by REALTIME is higher than the apm you are shown which is tracked by game time.

dave333
08-24-2010, 05:40 PM
I'm on a serious win streak off one base muta play. I usually don't expand until after the initial harass/push though. Then mass muta/ling with a few roach/bling is serious stuff.

soyizgood
08-24-2010, 06:25 PM
I'm on a serious win streak off one base muta play. I usually don't expand until after the initial harass/push though. Then mass muta/ling with a few roach/bling is serious stuff.

It's crazy that Zerg can burrow AND move with upgraded roaches. It's bad enough Zerg can pop Nydus worms anywhere they have sight of. Fortunately in my few human matches I haven't had either of those situations occur.

soyizgood
08-24-2010, 06:26 PM
I'm not sure how skilled I actually am lol. I thought my APM wasn't that bad, but I just started watching replays and it averages at 80-90? lol the beginning it's super low and it's low during a lot of stuff, but later on, especially during muta micro and attacking/defending it's like in the 300s.

I'm platinum btw. Some of the people i play have like sub 40 APM. One guy averaged like 20. But I guess one needs a higher APM in original starcraft vs. starcraft 2 since now a lot more things are automatic.

I average around 20 APM...LOL I average over 100 APM playing Sins of a Solar Empire, so go figure.

dave333
08-25-2010, 09:30 AM
Nydus worms and burrow actually aren't that common. Nydus worms are hella expensive gas wise and generally fail to work since it is hard to find a place in their base to pop it.

Burrow is a bit on the pricey side and it's a lair tech, but once you hit lair you are going to be spending all your gas on mutas/hydras/upgrades/tech (basically everything) so sometimes I don't get burrow except for baneling bombs.

soyizgood
08-25-2010, 04:45 PM
Nydus worms and burrow actually aren't that common. Nydus worms are hella expensive gas wise and generally fail to work since it is hard to find a place in their base to pop it.

Burrow is a bit on the pricey side and it's a lair tech, but once you hit lair you are going to be spending all your gas on mutas/hydras/upgrades/tech (basically everything) so sometimes I don't get burrow except for baneling bombs.

In my last 2v2 game the enemy used 1 Nydus worm on my ally's base. It caught my ally off guard somewhat. I had to help destroy the forces. The Zerg had time to dump another set of forces, but for some odd reason didn't.

On another subject, I tried to use ghosts to nuke an AI base. But for some reason I can't properly do simultaneous nukes When I have my ghosts evacuate, one always stays. David Kim did nuke bombs in one of his Battle Reports and it was awesome. I guess I need to hotkey or click on each one and press N.

soyizgood
09-02-2010, 07:23 PM
Any idea if the hybrids are in fact the Xel'naga?

dave333
09-02-2010, 10:45 PM
I'm kinda confused about the whole xel naga thing but I suppose I would assume so.

I'm starting to play mostly diamonds now and i'm beating them so I think a promotion is in order at some point for multiplayer.

GetBetterer
09-03-2010, 04:37 PM
Soy, we won't know until the trilogy ends, or maybe just the second one if they tell us. ^^

Hot Sauce
09-03-2010, 05:44 PM
Finally confident in most of the match-ups. PvZ is my best, then PvP, then PvT which is a little bit shaky for me right now. Reached 730 pts in Diamond, climbing my way up!

GetBetterer
09-03-2010, 06:57 PM
XvT is shaky for anybody except T.

1220 in diamond right now. I suckcakes :(

Hot Sauce
09-03-2010, 08:30 PM
XvT is shaky for anybody except T.

1220 in diamond right now. I suckcakes :(

Legit. What race do you play? KR server, right?

GetBetterer
09-03-2010, 10:00 PM
Zerg, yes KR server.

Over here we call Idra 4snow, and Flash the flattest face in the east.

dave333
09-03-2010, 11:42 PM
i just got promoted to diamond lol.

idk i struggle vs. good protoss pressure, i can't really expand until i get hydras to reliably beat zealots/stalkers (maybe i should get roaches, but i don't relaly like them and they slow down the tech).

also terran is of course, generally a nightmare. somehow i get wins though, but i suppose the lower diamonds i've been playing aren't very good.

ZvZ is my best matchup, I have pretty good game sense on what to do adn stuff.

Hot Sauce
09-04-2010, 03:15 AM
time for GSL BABY!

soyizgood
09-06-2010, 12:31 PM
I finished the campaign. I feel like a man...LOL I won all the missions on normal except for one which was a beeatch. Also did the secret mission. :)

GetBetterer
09-06-2010, 02:00 PM
Which mission was that soy? ^^

soyizgood
09-06-2010, 02:04 PM
Which mission was that soy? ^^

It's the one where Moebius relocates to a planet that is about to burn in flames. I'll get the title in a bit. Stupid Taldarim Protoss you have to fight. I think it's called Supernova.

soyizgood
09-06-2010, 02:11 PM
I never even used the spectres for some reason. Some of the upgrade choices were of little use.

GetBetterer
09-06-2010, 08:47 PM
What?! They're super-ghosts, wtf soy! AoE stun is one of the best skills in the game!!!

As for that mission, just make a huge army and keep lifting stuff off and moving them around. Mine out a base and then go to a new one. ^^

FlamEnemY
09-06-2010, 11:14 PM
I proudly announce that I'm part of the club now :) Me and my friend got the game so we use one account. The funny thing is, the dude instantly got promoted to Diamond league, so now I have a LOT of catching-up to do :)

GetBetterer
09-07-2010, 12:46 AM
Welcome FlamEnemy! :)

FlamEnemY
09-07-2010, 09:56 AM
Any idea if the hybrids are in fact the Xel'naga?

*spoiler alert spoiler alert*

The Xel'Naga are the race that created both Protoss and Zerg, after which they vanished. Apparently *some* of them have returned and created the hybrid, which is a whole new race altogether. Not sure how many of the original Xel'Naga besides the so-called "Fallen One" remain though. It's only certain that everyone's in deep ***** if not for a certain female character :)

soyizgood
09-08-2010, 12:56 PM
I'm thinking of trying a reaper rush. After building the 1st barracks, would you build 2-3 more barracks and then load up on them before striking? The concern I'd have is they cost gas. That and they likely need to be speed upgraded before striking, I guess.

I seem to prefer fortifying my ramps with marines, bunkers and tanks before going with cloaked banshees to strike.

GetBetterer
09-08-2010, 04:51 PM
Reaper Rush build:

10 Refinery
11 Barracks
11 Supply Depot

Get your first reaper out, mine more (Orbital Command at 15), get Nitro Packs + More Barracks' with Tech. Lab's.

soyizgood
09-09-2010, 03:25 PM
Reaper Rush build:

10 Refinery
11 Barracks
11 Supply Depot

Get your first reaper out, mine more (Orbital Command at 15), get Nitro Packs + More Barracks' with Tech. Lab's.

I SUCK at Reaper micro. Bigtime. I'll focus on more macro-friendly units. LOL

GetBetterer
09-09-2010, 04:38 PM
Another mech.? *Sigh*

soyizgood
09-10-2010, 09:01 AM
I played co-op yesterday and one guy suggested I not try to turtle so much. I've tried a few games where I'm just building up units (SCVs and army) without bunkers. It can work, but when I'm having to regroup I'm vulnerable without bunkers and turrets. I have noticed my unit production has definitely increased this way, but not necessarily my APM. Hmmm...

soyizgood
09-10-2010, 08:23 PM
I tried Protoss again. I'm getting a little more familiar. I had to un-terran myself to learn some of the complexities of this race. I may need to play a good 10-15 practice matches vs ai before I would dare play it against a human. Protoss are so slow at generating units. I can see why protoss players often build up so many gateways. The warpgate feature is nice, though I'm not a great micro-manager.

I might try to pull out a Mothership next time.

soyizgood
09-10-2010, 11:59 PM
This match was equal failure. Made me feel good about my level of play... LOL Where do these noobs come from?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZTKMRLetik&feature=related

GetBetterer
09-11-2010, 05:49 PM
They come from Gamestop, and from not having played SC1. That's where.

Also, Protoss are small, but strong, which is why they're scary in large numbers.

soyizgood
09-13-2010, 09:33 PM
^^^ I had to watch that match twice. I'm no genius, but that Protoss player could have won this game TWICE despite only playing with one warpgate the whole game (destroyed the expansion but left the hydra's den alone, earlier attacked the main base instead of the expansion). The zerg seemed to be the better player, but was too stuck up on building larvae and trying out fancy building for no real reason. With an army of hydralisks that the zerg had I find it mind-boggling the zerg didn't win. Just a crazy noob match, I guess.

Hot Sauce
09-14-2010, 04:06 AM
i LOVE gsl

soyizgood
09-16-2010, 12:41 PM
I'm hesitant to play the placement matches. Played one and the guy killed me with void rays. Then again that was a few weeks ago and I've learned much since then. I'm just playing 3 vs AI co-op on medium just to test my build times and unit placement.

I like raiding with banshees, but I wonder if Vikings would be as effective. Since I can't manage reapers, maybe ghosts with nukes would be better??

dave333
09-16-2010, 01:32 PM
check out teamliquid for strategies.

void rays can be tough, but if you can scout it out, you should be able to do a good push against the toss before the rays pop and get the kill.

if you see something suspicious like few units, fast gas, etc. you should start pumping rines and also look to make a rauder push as well.

GetBetterer
09-16-2010, 04:36 PM
As soon as I get a chance, I'll get on and help you out soy, I promise. I keep all my promises.

soyizgood
09-18-2010, 03:01 PM
SC II is coming out with a 1.1 patch. While it tries to balance the game, this patch definitely weakens Terran:

Protoss

We have two key changes in mind for the zealot: the build time is being increased from 33 to 38 seconds, and the warpgate cooldown is being increased from 23 to 28 seconds. Zealot rushes are currently too powerful at various skill levels, particularly those that rely on rapidly assaulting an enemy base from nearby "proxy" gateways. We feel the window players have to scout for and fend off this rush is too small. We also want to address the problem of protoss being able to dump minerals a bit too quickly with the combination of warpgates and Chrono Boost.

Terran

There are several changes in the works for terrans. Reapers against zerg are stronger than expected. Due to the zealot build time increase, reapers would be a bit problematic in combination with proxy barracks, bunkers, and/or marauders against protoss. Therefore, we have decided to increase the build time of reapers as well from 40 to 45 seconds. Fast reaper + bunker, or fast marine + bunker rushes are problematic against zerg. Although this rush would never outright destroy the zerg player, we feel zerg suffers too much of a disadvantage from either having to cancel the fast expansion, or getting trapped inside the main base for too long, so we are also increasing the bunker build time from 30 to 35 seconds.

Siege tanks in large numbers are performing too well in all matchups. In the mid- to late-game, siege tanks are too dominant against all ground units. We want a small set of light and unarmored ground units to perform better against siege tanks. With this in mind, we're changing the Siege Mode damage of the siege tank from 50 to 35, +15 vs. armored; to correspond with this, damage upgrades will be changed from +5 to +3, +2 vs. armored. This change reduces the base damage of the siege tank against light and unarmored units, as well as the splash damage.

Battlecruisers currently lack good counters from the ground and still perform very well against a wide array of unit types. We're aware that it is not easy to get battlecruisers out for the cost, but at the same time, it is possible in both 1v1s and team games to create stalemate situations to bring them out. Overall, we feel that battlecruisers are too strong for their cost, and the terran-forced stalemate situations are causing less interesting gameplay. We will be lowering their damage against ground units from 10 to 8.

Zerg

Ultralisk damage is being decreased from 15, +25 vs. armored to 15, +20 vs. armored. This reduction is comparable to the changes being made to the battlecruiser and siege tank. Like the battlecruiser, ultralisks are simply too powerful for the cost, even though they are difficult to muster. Also, in combination with other units, ultralisks are difficult to counter from the ground. The ultralisk building attack (Ram) is being removed because the damage rate is too similar to its normal attack, which will be used against buildings instead. When ultralisks target tightly packed smaller buildings such as supply depots, the Ram attack is actually outputting considerably less overall damage than its normal attack, as Ram only hits a single target.

GetBetterer
09-18-2010, 05:10 PM
Technically it's a Zerg buff, by weakening the other two. ^^ Here are some leaked details that may or may not be true (they sound very true though):

bleen: (that's his username on TeamLiquid.net)
Warning this was leaked on US forums after 20min blue post deleted thread this means it must be legit and it means US blue post are more active than EU am i surpised? no this just means this thread will stay alive longer

Maps
- Destructible Rocks have been added to the natural expansions of Desert Oasis, and the center has been narrowed.
- Various ladder maps have been added.

General
- Ground Units of type Psionic now have vision in the air plane.

Protoss
- Zealot build time increased from 33 to 38 seconds.
- Zealot warp-in cooldown increased from 23 to 28 seconds.
- Warp Prisms now unload their cargo instantly while in Phasing Mode.
- Chronoboost cooldown increased from 0 to 20 seconds.
- Dark Shrine build time decreased from 100 to 80.
- Dark Shrine cost decreased from 100 minerals 250 gas to 100 minerals 200 gas.
- Carrier cost increased from 350 minerals 250 gas to 400 minerals 250 gas.
- Carriers now spawn with four Interceptors prebuilt.

Terran
- Reaper build time increased from 40 to 45 seconds.
- Bunker build time increased from 30 to 35 seconds.
- Siege Mode damage decreased from 50 to 35, +15 armored.
- Siege Mode damage upgrades per level changed from +5 to +3, +2 vs. armored.
- Battlecruiser damage vs. ground decreased from 10 to 8.
- Calldown MULE cooldown increased from 0 to 40 seconds.
- Planetary Fortress build time decreased from 50 to 40 seconds.
- 250 mm Cannons research time decreased from 110 to 80 seconds.
- 250 mm Cannons cost decreased from 150 minerals 150 gas to 100 minerals 100 gas.
- 250 mm Cannons may now be used on friendly and neutral structures and units.

Zerg
- Ultralisk damage decreased from 15, +25 vs. armored to 15, +20 vs. armored.
- Ultralisk Ram attack removed.
- Nydus Worms can now be cancelled and refunded while building.
- Overlord base speed increased to from 0.469 to 0.938.
- Overlord upgraded speed increase from 1.875 to 2.344.
- Overlords can now use Excrete Creep while moving.
- Overlord base speed now decreases from 0.938 to 0.469 while Excrete Creep is active.
- Overlord upgraded speed now decreased from 2.344 to 1.875 while Excrete Creep is active.
- Spawn Larvae energy cost reduced to 20 from 25.

Bugfixes
- Fixed a bug that caused cloaked units to cast shadows.
- Fixed a bug where Larva would sometimes accidently die by walking off cliffs.
- Fixed a bug where a Nuclear Strike target could be hid behind a Lair.
- Fixed a bug that allowed SCVs to construct halted buildings from within Bunkers.
- Fixed a netcode bug that enabled players to warp in Immortals from Warp Gates.
- Fixed a bug that caused Random players to not see their cursor during the loading screen.
- Fixed a bug where Changelings morphed slower while coming into range of enemy units than when dropped from an Overseer over enemy units.

General
- Improved the functionality of voice chat.
- Manually queued waypoints can now be set to all 5 basic commands.
- Numerous performance and stability improvements.

source: http://www.goodgame.ru/read_topic.php?t=17450&pg=0

Hot Sauce
09-18-2010, 11:54 PM
i call fake! im excited for the patch, it comes out tuesday

GetBetterer
09-19-2010, 12:19 AM
Yep, Sept. 22nd (which is Wednesday lol)

Also, according to the guy who uploaded those patch notes, they came up when one of the moderators of Blizzard uploaded them but deleted them 20 minutes later.

They sound very real, because only AFTER that post did fake patch note ones come out lol.

dave333
09-19-2010, 11:55 AM
- Carrier cost increased from 350 minerals 250 gas to 400 minerals 250 gas.
- Carriers now spawn with four Interceptors prebuilt.

this is very fake. carriers already spawn with 4

soyizgood
09-19-2010, 12:27 PM
- Carrier cost increased from 350 minerals 250 gas to 400 minerals 250 gas.
- Carriers now spawn with four Interceptors prebuilt.

this is very fake. carriers already spawn with 4

My post was straight from Blizzard.

dave333
09-19-2010, 01:45 PM
Soy, yours are true.

the other extended one is fake though.

GetBetterer
09-19-2010, 03:14 PM
Yeah, soy's one was directly from the blizzard site:

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/692221

soyizgood
09-19-2010, 06:18 PM
Played another co-op. One partner dropped early in game. The other guy dropped as well. That left me 1 vs 3 AI. I had to manage 3 players (2 protoss, 1 terran), but I juggled it to an eventual victory. Took 81 minutes to win. Feeling good right now. :)

Hot Sauce
09-20-2010, 01:59 AM
Yep, Sept. 22nd (which is Wednesday lol)

Also, according to the guy who uploaded those patch notes, they came up when one of the moderators of Blizzard uploaded them but deleted them 20 minutes later.

They sound very real, because only AFTER that post did fake patch note ones come out lol.

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/785430#blog

tuesday for us servers, wednesday for others? im not sure, im just looking at the site.

GetBetterer
09-20-2010, 03:34 PM
Yeah, my bad. It's Wednesday for Korean servers because Korea is somehow a day ahead (hour changes and all you know).

dave333
09-20-2010, 04:52 PM
I'm not sure how to stop mass thor+hellion as zerg except with brood lords cause they're kinda late. I got pushed by like 4 thors+bunch of hellions and lost. I feel like roaches would be good but those hthors hit hard. And tanks eventually bring em down too.

GetBetterer
09-20-2010, 07:16 PM
dave333:
I'm not sure how to stop mass thor+hellion as zerg except with brood lords cause they're kinda late. I got pushed by like 4 thors+bunch of hellions and lost. I feel like roaches would be good but those hthors hit hard. And tanks eventually bring em down too.

You're confusing us here.

You said Thors and Hellions, but then you talk about Thors, Hellions AND Siege Tanks. Which is it?

If it's Thors and Hellions, mid-game your best bet is to just Burrow-move with massive amounts of roaches.

Unfortunately the Orbital Command usually scans those, and because of that, a lot of people (on the Korean servers anyways) have developed the use of Banelings with mixed units (mixed being Roaches until Tier 3).

2 Banelings = 1 Food = 100 Minerals and 50 Gas.

Just use attack-move on your Banelings and they'll charge in and you can use your Roaches quick movement (because as soon as you have Lair and you plan on using Roaches, you should upgrade Glial Reconstitution) to help destroy the rest of it.

This sounds a little weird, but here's why:

Banelings aren't Light units, so a Hellion's Infernal Pre-Igniter doesn't help them do extra damage. A Thor can kill them in one shot, but Thors attack (relatively) slow so the Banelings with Centrifugal Hooks, or Banelings without for that matter - will successfully detonate on Thors and Hellions.

With the new patch, I suspect it will now be Banelings and Hydralisks simply because it will take 3 Shots from Siege Tanks to kill Hydralisks, while Banelings can take care of the Hellions since Infernal Pre-Igniter does work on Hydralisks (although not completely effectively).

Thors will attack the closest unit, which will be the charging Banelings.

Hydralisks will shoot the Thors while they're distracted and Hellions will just be doing their standard running around.

Also with the new patch is Hydralisks will be a great unit to use against Siege Tanks:

1 Hydralisk, and adjacent Hydralisks will take 35 damage.

Nearby Hydralisks will only take 18 damage, and those even farther away than that will only take 9 or 8 damage.

This means some Hydralisks will take 3 shots to die, others 5, and others 9 shots (and this excludes regeneration, so the 9 shot Hydralisk will actually take 10 to die).

dave333
09-20-2010, 07:45 PM
Yeah I first meant thor/hellion, but sometimes there are a couple tanks later on.

So mass roach? I guess I oughta try that out.

I'm also hoping that the new patch will add maybe a few more bites, I was expecting something with marauders.

Hot Sauce
09-21-2010, 09:26 PM
Patch 1.1, what a disappointment. I thought they were at least going to have a couple more balance changes in addition to the ones they listed in the situation report. But nope.

GetBetterer
09-21-2010, 11:33 PM
Yeah, Blizzard lost their ability to surprise people after the SC:BW Lead Design Team pretty much retired (excluding Dustin Browder and a few others).

I mean, if you look at SC:BW, here's what they basically did:

We're going to add 2 types of units to each race:
1 Area of Effect Anti-air
1 Anti-ground that requires Detector vision
-Exception of Terran which added Marines because the Ghost could already cloak

So we got:

1. Devourer, Corsair, Valkyrie
2. Lurker, Dark Templar, Medic

I also recall reading somewhere that the Lead Design Team decided to "mash up anything that sounded cool and begin balancing from there"

Apparently I eat my mashed potatoes and take out the potato parts I don't like when I eat it. Then I share it with others, see what they don't like about what I like, and change it so everybody is as happy as possible, then we call it a game.

-_-

The only unit that transferred over from Starcraft: Brood War? Dark Templar.

:( Sad SC2 player is sad.

Then they just switched some abilities around:

Lockdown turned into Graviton Beam
Mind Control into Neural Parasite

:( More sad.

Banelings = Horrible version of BW's Infested Terran.
Hellions = Mechanical Firebats, more sad.
Immortals =/= Dragoons = sad.
Zerglings = 79% DPS reduction = sad
Marine gains like +10 health from BW + Increased Attack Speed = Sad

Starcraft 2 = Sad.

:(

Well, time to go play the "most anticipated game of the year" and the most disappointing one too.

I just don't like the game the way it is, but it is closer to being balanced:

http://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/a-cool-balance-art-12.jpg

Hot Sauce
09-22-2010, 01:28 AM
I never played BW, so I can't compare.

I have a major gripe with the way Terran is designed. Everything about it is just noobified and made easy. Usually an ability such as blink for the stalker does not make the unit stronger, unless micro'd. However with stim it just makes the marauder or marine stronger in every way. And then there's medivacs to just auto heal all day long.

Ravens PDD
Stim
Medivacs
Vikings with 10 range
the list goes on..

Plus tech switches are so incredibly easy for Terran, while with Zerg and Toss we have to actually commit and tech to one path.

soyizgood
09-22-2010, 11:12 AM
I never played BW, so I can't compare.

I have a major gripe with the way Terran is designed. Everything about it is just noobified and made easy. Usually an ability such as blink for the stalker does not make the unit stronger, unless micro'd. However with stim it just makes the marauder or marine stronger in every way. And then there's medivacs to just auto heal all day long.

Ravens PDD
Stim
Medivacs
Vikings with 10 range
the list goes on..

Plus tech switches are so incredibly easy for Terran, while with Zerg and Toss we have to actually commit and tech to one path.

Terrans don't have a super unit. The strongest unit, the battlecruiser, got weakened vs ground units only because Blizzard was afraid of late-late-late game situations. The siege tank also got nerfed even though it's slow to reload and requires its own control group to be effective.

The Ultralisk was ridiculously overpowering. The protoss have multiple units that are quite powerful and they didn't get nerfed at all.

dave333
09-22-2010, 11:14 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px0zB9_ePmI

sex for my eyes

^BC's are super units. Just drag a long some SCVS for 1000 hp/sec repair and watch as your BCs tank and your army melts everything. BC's as independents aren't as good, but with ground support, they add huge DPS along with them.

Terran doesn't need a super unit. Terran is strong because their ball of MMM or thor/hellion is just so powerful against zerg, and they have ghost to EMP against toss. Late game, the game is finally a bit even but it is the early/mid game where terran is just so powerful.

Terran is also the most complete race. Just look at all their random upgrades, like 2 armor for buildings, hi sec auto tracking. And stuff like pre-ignition; I mean, why exactly do hellions get an actual upgrade that increases their damage by ten? Why do marauders get stim when even in campaign they don't?

Just a lot of nonsensical things IMO.

soyizgood
09-24-2010, 12:36 PM
Who's hotter?

Sarah Kerrigan
Mira Han
Nova
Dr. Ariel Hanson
Kate Lockwell

I vote for Dr. Hanson. Kerrigan has Zerg cooties and tastes the blood of her fallen enemies, Han is a bit loony and dangerous, and Nova is a vindictive liar (have to admit female ghosts tend to be quite sexy). Kate is a close 2nd.

GetBetterer
09-24-2010, 03:58 PM
Why...is Mira Han on that list? -_- You are no longer on the "People who GetBetterer Respects" List.

Kate - Not really. She's "cute" looking (although not that either) but she's a 6 in my book.

Nova - I have Starcraft: Ghost, so I saw her do a couple of awesome things, she's on my list.

=SPOILER=
Dr. Ariel Hanson - If you don't help the Colony on New Haven and you leave them to die to the Zerg, she turns Zerg and tries to kill Raynor in a Cinematic.

Sarah Kerrigan - She goes back to human-looking in the end, and theoretically she was naked the entire time as a Zerg. She has curves, and because she's a Zerg and not a Human, neither of your STDs can transfer! Plus, she reminds of Medusa from the recent movie The Clash of the Titans and I thought she was hot.

soyizgood
09-24-2010, 04:27 PM
Why...is Mira Han on that list? -_- You are no longer on the "People who GetBetterer Respects" List.

Kate - Not really. She's "cute" looking (although not that either) but she's a 6 in my book.

Nova - I have Starcraft: Ghost, so I saw her do a couple of awesome things, she's on my list.

=SPOILER=
Dr. Ariel Hanson - If you don't help the Colony on New Haven and you leave them to die to the Zerg, she turns Zerg and tries to kill Raynor in a Cinematic.

Sarah Kerrigan - She goes back to human-looking in the end, and theoretically she was naked the entire time as a Zerg. She has curves, and because she's a Zerg and not a Human, neither of your STDs can transfer! Plus, she reminds of Medusa from the recent movie The Clash of the Titans and I thought she was hot.

I didn't say Mira was (un)attractive. She is one of the female characters in the game. :) Matt Horner, the nice guy, "married" to a murderous pirate/mercenary? Who would have thought that? LOL

I saw the spoilers already. The Hanson-turned-Zerg was an ending I found quite depressing. Glad I chose to protect Haven.

Kerrigan was a major biatch as Queen of Blades. Power-trippy, wicked, deceitful, violent chicks are a complete turn-off. If it wasn't for the prophecy, I would have been fine with Tychus putting a bullet in her head.

soyizgood
09-24-2010, 05:31 PM
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100717175755/starcraft/images/b/b1/MiraHan_SC2_Head1.jpg

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQKg4cMiOvrzBaBd9Yx-AlhJQDzrilV19sdQRsWqApLeL-Zx78&t=1&usg=__zjMA6MmBUsXQMO24J8lXR757LYA=

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSBaS3nTKOfadDYHOhzpygvpwOP95kSB WFh_uUmE2ujAlr5puQ&t=1&usg=__9ld7MCNxbbZIg5dWz7_z_P30oso=

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR7eucUChm1hpww0H1mxlVb4It3vjASC vxZXGVOPromAxN6nko&t=1&usg=__xfl6ZnXEqeaLQrrWlkdr3d0SvxM=

soyizgood
09-24-2010, 05:34 PM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSyM_0UGHAN_zF9l-lEZzyVHoGFySHavA-rkqOqQZ-NvmznSgE&t=1&usg=___cDBuweUIvgkgfPiZED-ZZJchgo=

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRo904vEHJ1HW2UKuE4d9bxFUbnCPRY4 udAKaxybNSFROsLNC8&t=1&usg=__PYgXGI9EMosEmePpofwc4Y_sRqU=

GetBetterer
09-24-2010, 07:18 PM
soyizgood:
Kerrigan was a major biatch as Queen of Blades. Power-trippy, wicked, deceitful, violent chicks are a complete turn-off. If it wasn't for the prophecy, I would have been fine with Tychus putting a bullet in her head.

Your name is no longer scratched off of the Respect List, it is now whited out.

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/229/4/6/Zerg_Kerrigan_by_BlackSheep64.png

Dear God,

Please make soy that picture of Mira Han off or the amount of Starcraft noobs I can enjoy defeating will decrease significantly.

soyizgood
09-24-2010, 08:10 PM
soyizgood:


Your name is no longer scratched off of the Respect List, it is now whited out.

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2010/229/4/6/Zerg_Kerrigan_by_BlackSheep64.png

Dear God,

Please make soy that picture of Mira Han off or the amount of Starcraft noobs I can enjoy defeating will decrease significantly.

I'm sure if you ask the benevolent, compassionate, goddess (of death) QoB nice enough you'll become one of her favorite:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR1kFC5aRwz2AVwv5iimcGxauWzmn6XL k2p61mY6tKdBwEPQi0&t=1&usg=__sNn4XGYtxLevLfatfRU5_Jw1EYQ=

And to think I just finished the mission that had that particular fellow. Sorry, but word to your mother....
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSwv6rn_oblJMl_262rdPYJT0ma9eAeF NXKcTLHWW_MsmsnkkI&t=1&usg=__8vcHm1ZHE8og849y9SIcRGq8AXg=

I "might" look for a smaller Mira Han pic. Might being the key word.

GetBetterer
09-24-2010, 08:28 PM
Better than being married to:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100717175755/starcraft/images/b/b1/MiraHan_SC2_Head1.jpg

soyizgood
09-24-2010, 08:36 PM
I'd marry her before being one of the QoB's drones:

http://img.youtube.com/vi/1WVcyfWahHg/0.jpg

GetBetterer
09-24-2010, 09:40 PM
Good luck, she would "purify" you.

soyizgood
09-28-2010, 07:32 PM
I was replaying some missions so I can get more achievement points. I finished the campaign, but after I re-did a mission it counts me as finishing 22 instead of the 26 missions I did. Stupid 1.1.1 patch!

GetBetterer
09-28-2010, 07:51 PM
Yeah, you can't do all of them with a nerf. ^^

dave333
09-28-2010, 09:32 PM
Ultras got worse with 1.1.1...now they do splash from attack instead of the target.

GetBetterer
09-28-2010, 10:24 PM
It also removed the 7% increased mineral thing too. :(

That Ultralisk bug, despite me being a Zerg player, I do agree it had to be removed. It was a bug, it was overpowered and there's just no way an Ultralisk can attack around a Command Centre.

soyizgood
09-28-2010, 10:39 PM
I wish the Terrans had those psi disruptors in multiplay. It worked wonders in the final mission and maybe it could have been modified to minimizing psi storms from high templar. Because psi storms are a biatch to deal with.

Hot Sauce
09-28-2010, 11:36 PM
ghosts are an even bigger biatch to deal with :(

GetBetterer
09-29-2010, 12:49 AM
soyizgood:
I wish the Terrans had those psi disruptors in multiplay. It worked wonders in the final mission and maybe it could have been modified to minimizing psi storms from high templar. Because psi storms are a biatch to deal with.

So you could slow down targets? ._. Like you even need that.

Hot Sauce:
ghosts are an even bigger biatch to deal with

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1535790/2/istockphoto_1535790_i_agree.jpg

When all of a sudden my Infestor seems to be able to Mind Control, that absurdly long ranged rocket destroys all of his poor energy. Not to mention the fact that they think the EMP destroys Banelings apparently, so when my Infestors were going to Infested Terran spawn underneath all of them...they couldn't. :'(

RoddickRook
09-29-2010, 04:42 PM
soyizgood:


So you could slow down targets? ._. Like you even need that.

Hot Sauce:


http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/1535790/2/istockphoto_1535790_i_agree.jpg

When all of a sudden my Infestor seems to be able to Mind Control, that absurdly long ranged rocket destroys all of his poor energy. Not to mention the fact that they think the EMP destroys Banelings apparently, so when my Infestors were going to Infested Terran spawn underneath all of them...they couldn't. :'(

Yeah, Concussive Shells are already annoying as is.

soyizgood
09-30-2010, 08:23 PM
I will pretend "Haven's Fall" never existed, hence my avatar. :)

GetBetterer
09-30-2010, 08:46 PM
Soy, how about this:

http://img818.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20100731at959.png/

or this: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100728125445/starcraft/images/9/9a/InfestedHanson_SC2-WoL_CineInfested1.jpg

EVERYBODY FREAKING RUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100812132337/starcraft/images/5/5b/InfestedHanson_SC2-WoL_CineInfested2.jpg

Not to mention this thread has already pretty much solved your question from the start soy:

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1512649

soyizgood
09-30-2010, 09:04 PM
Soy, how about this:

http://img818.imageshack.us/f/screenshot20100731at959.png/

or this: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100728125445/starcraft/images/9/9a/InfestedHanson_SC2-WoL_CineInfested1.jpg

EVERYBODY FREAKING RUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100812132337/starcraft/images/5/5b/InfestedHanson_SC2-WoL_CineInfested2.jpg

Not to mention this thread has already pretty much solved your question from the start soy:

http://forum.lowyat.net/topic/1512649

That poll failed. It listed Kerrigan, but not an option for Q of Blades. Also left out Mira and Selendis. Plus a good number of voters had fantasies of being tentacle-r@ped by Kerrigan. Sorry, but chicks that can fry your brains out in an instant = too much drama. Raynor will be permanently haunted should he fall for Kerrigan. Better him than me. At least Horner can avoid Mira. Nova is messed up in her head... must be a female ghost thing. Kate is tying to be the main UNN anchor person, so I'll gladly help her set Vermillion "aside".

GetBetterer
09-30-2010, 10:41 PM
soyizgood:
Nova is messed up in her head... must be a female ghost thing.

You...never played Starcraft: Ghost...did you...

Plus a good number of voters had fantasies of being tentacle-r@ped by Kerrigan. Sorry, but chicks that can fry your brains out in an instant = too much drama.

How do you go from tentacle r@pe to frying brains? I have a masochistic side of me...won't lie.

I'd rather have Kerrigan than the first picture I posted above. *Shivers*

soyizgood
09-30-2010, 11:10 PM
soyizgood:


You...never played Starcraft: Ghost...did you...



How do you go from tentacle r@pe to frying brains? I have a masochistic side of me...won't lie.

I'd rather have Kerrigan than the first picture I posted above. *Shivers*

Never played Ghost. I don't think it was ever released, was it? I read bits of Nova's story. The ghost program is quite abusive to ghosts. Almost a curse to have such abilities.

dave333
10-01-2010, 10:13 AM
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=157292

so cute, so sad =(

GetBetterer
10-01-2010, 03:43 PM
soyizgood:
Never played Ghost. I don't think it was ever released, was it? I read bits of Nova's story. The ghost program is quite abusive to ghosts. Almost a curse to have such abilities.

It's an RPG-like game, but you can't affect any storyline or anything. It's still fun though.

dave333:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=157292

so cute, so sad =(

Oh man, that reminds me of so many movies like that. :'(

soyizgood
10-03-2010, 12:09 AM
My antivirus program suspected a SC2 file was infected. After I rebooted and opened SC2, I noticed all of my saved replays were gone. :(

GetBetterer
10-03-2010, 01:47 AM
Sorry about that soy. Maybe if you can't find the virus or spyware, you should reformat. After all, you did lose your SC2 replays and you can't lose your account unless they hack that too with a Keylogger.

dave333
10-06-2010, 08:24 AM
fruitdealer 화이팅!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrfzEO2yTe0

GetBetterer
10-06-2010, 04:05 PM
모야! 제미잇는것을 link 해.

Hot Sauce
10-07-2010, 04:00 AM
Having trouble in PvT. Terran likes to go with a 1-1-2,banshee/raven/marine timing attack on 1 base and expand while he pushes out. Just when I think I have a solid PvT opener, Terran screws it up. I've been going 1 gas, 2gate expand into high templar play, and it's generally been working.

I'm not sure how to stop this timing attack. Banshees and marines do sick DPS, and the PDD just plain nullifies stalkers. Sentries get dropped very quick, and it would be stupid to make too many of them. Phoenix play won't work because the banshees will just cloak. A quick voidray could do damage, but with a reactored rax, Terran can easily get the vikings out. I tried 2gate expand into colossus, and my colossus popped out just after the Terran destroyed my expo. He added some vikings into his army, and that was it. I also feel like any one base play is silly to use against a Terran. I'm thinking of a 2 immortal wall-busting timing push, but it feels too all-in to me. Not really the best strategy unless you know that the Terran is skipping out on army and straight teching.

I'm really not a fan of Terran abilities, they don't promote extra micro or additional skill at all. PDD goes down and absorbs projectiles (lol), mule drops down and gives 300 minerals, stim is used and simply put - makes marines/marauders stronger in every way. Concussive shell is a passive that slows units down. Siege tanks auto attack with perfect AI and devastate literally any ground army.

Hot Sauce
10-07-2010, 04:08 AM
I'm also unsure about my PvP. I'm trying to find an alternative build to the colossus, expand to double robo build. I'm thinking of a 3gate stargate build, similar to the one Inca used in the GSL on Delta. It's hard to keep those voidrays charged though, without some really good micro. I'm leaning towards an MLG KiWiKaKi vs HuK 4gate gas steal build, as I imagine when practiced that build could be hard to stop.

dave333
10-07-2010, 12:16 PM
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/761331

whoooo buffs!!

^Usually you need to go robo before going templar because you really need the obs for banshees/scouting. Collossi are pretty good anyway, and immortals are invaluable.

But sentries are your magic unit, tbh Toss is a little too dependent on them. Guardian shield kills rine DPS, and force field can cut armies in two, as well as just sometimes get units stuck inbetween them and screw them over. Early game, you need to force field your ramp till you can get enough reinforcements to kill the push.

Hot Sauce
10-07-2010, 01:58 PM
Immortals would be really bad against a marine/banshee/raven push. I don't think it would be good to go one base and wait for the timing attack to come. The Terran will already have his CC built, so after I defend it my expo will be that late. Plus, the FF won't stop the banshees from sniping my stalkers, and the PDD will nullify the stalkers. Then the banshees will be free to do terrible terrible damage to my base.

dave333
10-07-2010, 02:10 PM
Yeah ravens are hard to deal with. From what I have read though, a 1 base terran is not going to have enough gas to have a significant number of both banshees and ravens without a lot of time because it's quite gas intensive. HT can feedback ravens and banshees, and storm can obviously melt the rine ball.

Obviously in this case, the immortals are useless.

Hot Sauce
10-07-2010, 04:45 PM
Terran can pump out a LOT of banshees from 2 starports. If I go with an early expand, I won't have HT in time to hold off the push, and 1 base HT isn't a good idea. Plus, Terran can intentionally drain banshee energy before attacking. It's tough.

GetBetterer
10-07-2010, 05:36 PM
Starcraft2.com
The balance changes in our next patch will primarily focus on improving the zerg.



Here are a few of the changes we currently have planned:

• We're increasing roach range. This will allow roaches to be more effective in large groups, giving the zerg more options in the mid to end game.



• Fungal Growth will now prevent Blink, which will give zerg a way to stop endlessly Blinking stalkers which can be very challenging to deal with in large numbers.



• The Barracks are going to require a Supply Depot, which will impact a lot of early terran reaper pushes.



• The reaper speed upgrade will require the Factory, which is meant to weaken a lot of the early terran reaper attacks that dominate so many matches, especially in team games.



• We're making a number of increases to the health of zerg buildings, which will make the very vulnerable zerg technology structures more resistant to raids. We don't expect these hit point changes to have a super significant impact on the game, but the current numbers felt way too low.

There...is a God...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oWLq61bKS58/TBmHwywid4I/AAAAAAAABbo/_Wt8OjmAOPk/s1600/surprised-cat.jpg

Anyways, back on topic. Even with these nerfs your build isn't going to be improved at all.

Hot_Sauce:
I've been going 1 gas, 2gate expand into high templar play, and it's generally been working.

No. Just...no. The standard for Gateway/Warp Gate builds is:
10 Pylon
12 Gateway
13 Assimilator
15 Cybernetics Core

The numbers are huge in difference because unlike the Terrans who get M.U.L.E.'s after an Orbital Command, you will have Chrono Boost no matter what.

Also, do not start off with 2 Gateways. First off, it's what we consider an "all-in," basically, like gambling you go all-in to win, or to lose it all. The build I gave you is safer.

Not only is it safer, but if you look at Pro replays, people Chrono Boost a Zealot to block off a tiny choke point where it can fight units one by one.

From this, you can easily transition into 4 Warp Gates, or 3 Warp Gates with a Robotics Facility.

I recommend 4 Warp Gates if you find your opponent easy.

However, I highly recommend getting Stalkers. Marines have a high amount of damage per second, but pro-active Blink micro allows your Stalkers to survive much longer, and they will because they have much more health and shield.

In addition, I do recommend at least 1 or 2 High Templars. Feedback has no recharge, and drains ALL energy no matter what, so Ravens aren't able to cast any spells, including Point Defense Drone making your Stalkers that much stronger.

The Robotics Facility will be for the Observer (which is invisible anyways). Although a lot of people don't, the Observer should be Chronoboosted out in those situations.

Keep it away from the Marines though, because they will destroy it easily, and MAYBE the Ravens because Ravens can use the Hunter Seeker Missile but I don't think they will.

dave333
10-07-2010, 06:19 PM
you might say it's a...

'toss-up

YEEEEAAAAAAAAH


my friend is so funny.

^oh yeah lol I assumed he was going gate core, not 2 gate.

anyway, 4 range roach is gonna be sweet (i assume it will be 4). maybe it is a lil unfortunate that reaper play will be non existent, but that is simply due to their design.

more building hp is relatively useful i guess.

still marauders....they are way to powerful for what they do. more against toss than anything.

also mind giving some advice here:
http://screplays.com/replays/dave333/11007

I think I did okay early game, holding off pushes, blocking expos. main problem i guess was i didn't get my 3rd soon enough? i was pretty mineral locked the whole game.

GetBetterer
10-07-2010, 07:33 PM
I prefer not to download replays simply because it takes time to go there, download the replay, put it in the viewing folder, and it just gets annoying.

Could you just grab a few screenies? ^^
================================================== ==========================
Also, I disagree on the Roach's range buff.

Personally, I find the Roach USELESS except in Tier 1 where it can help (somewhat) against early harasses but now 2 Gateway and Reaper Harassment is out of the picture, so the Roach is even more useless.

There are MUCH better units out there, and the Lurker could have easily replaced the Roach. My idea for the Lurker in TeamLiquid.net got shot down because people aren't willing to read long posts but here is what it was in a nutshell:

Lurker - 145 hit point unit. 2 Food. 75 Minerals, 25 Vespene Gas. Requires a Lurker Warren (obviously this would obviously be the Roach Warren). It's movement speed is faster than whatever the Roach has, and it has a melee attack. When Burrow is researched, and the Lurker Burrows, it can attack while Burrowed with it's secondary attack, Subterranean Spines.

I had some ideas for the Baneling to change too but again, people on TeamLiquid don't like to read. There was a guy who made a long post and a few short sentences said "help, lost to whatever" and he made this giant wall of paragraph that in the middle said "If you actually read through this, don't post anything." ^^

Time to go to the main topic - why the Roach is horrible.

Armored, 145 health points. Dies in 3 shots to the tank. Hydralisks also die in 3 shots to the Siege Tank, and deal more DPS and have a longer range.

An even better unit is the Infested Terran. Their AI makes them overpowered. First off, the egg takes 3 shots from a Siege tank to kill, and in addition to that, if the Egg dies, it becomes a new unit (technically speaking) so the Siege tanks AI will wander away from the unit they think they killed, or the unit that died and go onto another, so the heavy DPSing Infested Marines are free to reign damage.

soyizgood
10-08-2010, 07:28 AM
I prefer not to download replays simply because it takes time to go there, download the replay, put it in the viewing folder, and it just gets annoying.

Could you just grab a few screenies? ^^
================================================== ==========================
Also, I disagree on the Roach's range buff.

Personally, I find the Roach USELESS except in Tier 1 where it can help (somewhat) against early harasses but now 2 Gateway and Reaper Harassment is out of the picture, so the Roach is even more useless.

There are MUCH better units out there, and the Lurker could have easily replaced the Roach. My idea for the Lurker in TeamLiquid.net got shot down because people aren't willing to read long posts but here is what it was in a nutshell:

Lurker - 145 hit point unit. 2 Food. 75 Minerals, 25 Vespene Gas. Requires a Lurker Warren (obviously this would obviously be the Roach Warren). It's movement speed is faster than whatever the Roach has, and it has a melee attack. When Burrow is researched, and the Lurker Burrows, it can attack while Burrowed with it's secondary attack, Subterranean Spines.

I had some ideas for the Baneling to change too but again, people on TeamLiquid don't like to read. There was a guy who made a long post and a few short sentences said "help, lost to whatever" and he made this giant wall of paragraph that in the middle said "If you actually read through this, don't post anything." ^^

Time to go to the main topic - why the Roach is horrible.

Armored, 145 health points. Dies in 3 shots to the tank. Hydralisks also die in 3 shots to the Siege Tank, and deal more DPS and have a longer range.

An even better unit is the Infested Terran. Their AI makes them overpowered. First off, the egg takes 3 shots from a Siege tank to kill, and in addition to that, if the Egg dies, it becomes a new unit (technically speaking) so the Siege tanks AI will wander away from the unit they think they killed, or the unit that died and go onto another, so the heavy DPSing Infested Marines are free to reign damage.

Tanks had their damage reduced in the last patch. I think it takes 4 shots now to kill a roach.

Starcraft developers are becoming more anti-Terran. What's being done to address zergling rushes (2 lings beat one marine anyway)? It takes more time for Terrans to do a quick raid anyway and even if they try that they have to use reactors instead of tech labs which means pumping out nothing but marines. Since Terran has to build starports just to get Medivacs it's a royal pain to try a quick raid that can actually do damage. Hellion strike would make more sense than a Marine rush IMO.

I think the Zerg have enough weapons. Their downside is that it requires more micro than the Protoss and Terran. Tough luck. The Zerg were designed to overwhelm with quantity of units, not necessarily quality.

dave333
10-08-2010, 07:44 AM
^Tanks do same damage to roach, their damage to light got nerfed.

I'll try to give a description of what I think happened.

Map is scrap station, I was Z he was T. I was on the right side.

I go 14 hatch 13 pool because I didn't scout reapers. I scouted a hellion, then a reactor so I put up roach warren, my first 2 queens and lings hold off the first 3 hellions losing only like 1/2 drones. I build a couple roaches, they along with 2 queens fight off another four hellions that run in later. I drone super hard, get my economy going, and lair. I scout a hellion/thor push, so I put up some crawlers and built a lot of roaches along with some lings. He tries to break the rocks into my natural so I move my spines there, and when he breaks the rocks, i attack from both sides of the choke and crushed his force, then I sent a big counterattack of roach/ling and killed all the scvs at his expo and forced his nat to lift.

Meanwhile I was building my spire, it popped and I made some mutas. He built a lot of turrets though, and had thor+rines in base so I didn't harass.

I think was my mistake was after blocking the push, I did not grab my third immediately. I had a huge advantage after killing those scvs/his nat, i had 2 base fully saturated and had an army whereas he didn't have much (couldn't push though because he still had defense on his ramp).

I also didn't make more mutas. The push that finally killed me was a lot of hellions and like 6 thors; had I simply pumped mutas, I could've magic boxed him and used roach/muta to kill him. Instead, I tried went to hive and got ultras, but the whole time I didn't really have enough money for both upgrades and ultras.

Is roach/ling any good against thor/hellion? I also had blings in the mix too to kill scvs but 6 thors was just really strong and my roaches died to them.

I guess my biggest failing was a failure in expanding after crushing his push.

Hot Sauce
10-08-2010, 01:38 PM
Anyways, back on topic. Even with these nerfs your build isn't going to be improved at all.

Hot_Sauce:


No. Just...no. The standard for Gateway/Warp Gate builds is:
10 Pylon
12 Gateway
13 Assimilator
15 Cybernetics Core

The numbers are huge in difference because unlike the Terrans who get M.U.L.E.'s after an Orbital Command, you will have Chrono Boost no matter what.

Also, do not start off with 2 Gateways. First off, it's what we consider an "all-in," basically, like gambling you go all-in to win, or to lose it all. The build I gave you is safer.

Not only is it safer, but if you look at Pro replays, people Chrono Boost a Zealot to block off a tiny choke point where it can fight units one by one.

From this, you can easily transition into 4 Warp Gates, or 3 Warp Gates with a Robotics Facility.

I recommend 4 Warp Gates if you find your opponent easy.

However, I highly recommend getting Stalkers. Marines have a high amount of damage per second, but pro-active Blink micro allows your Stalkers to survive much longer, and they will because they have much more health and shield.

In addition, I do recommend at least 1 or 2 High Templars. Feedback has no recharge, and drains ALL energy no matter what, so Ravens aren't able to cast any spells, including Point Defense Drone making your Stalkers that much stronger.

The Robotics Facility will be for the Observer (which is invisible anyways). Although a lot of people don't, the Observer should be Chronoboosted out in those situations.

Keep it away from the Marines though, because they will destroy it easily, and MAYBE the Ravens because Ravens can use the Hunter Seeker Missile but I don't think they will.

I don't think you understand o_o..

My PvT build is a 1 gas, 2 warp gate expand. It's not a 2gate zealot rush.
Also, you don't wall off your choke against Terran.
4 gate is a terrible idea against Terran.
PDD nullifies stalkers, whether they have blink or not.
High templars will NOT be out in time to stop a banshee/raven/marine timing attack.

I mean you're giving general advice, but it just doesn't work. It's like telling me that in order to stop a 6 pool you should get carriers.

GetBetterer
10-08-2010, 02:19 PM
So...no pylons in your build? o_O

Hot_Sauce:
My PvT build is a 1 gas, 2 warp gate expand. It's not a 2gate zealot rush.
Also, you don't wall off your choke against Terran.
4 gate is a terrible idea against Terran.
PDD nullifies stalkers, whether they have blink or not.
High templars will NOT be out in time to stop a banshee/raven/marine timing attack.

I mean you're giving general advice, but it just doesn't work. It's like telling me that in order to stop a 6 pool you should get carriers.

Well if you want to let your opponent just run in and have a lot of versatility, then yeah forget that wall-off. Sure.

If you actually read, I don't give general advice. I actually give specific advice and Blink is not the solution I gave against Point Defense Drones. Now, since you have proved to me your mind is very feeble, I'll re-quote the important parts you skipped.

GetBetterer:
Also, do not start off with 2 Gateways. First off, it's what we consider an "all-in," basically, like gambling you go all-in to win, or to lose it all. The build I gave you is safer.

If you only get 2 Gateways, then of course you can't beat a good amount of Terrans, they'll produce more than you.

In addition, I do recommend at least 1 or 2 High Templars. Feedback has no recharge, and drains ALL energy no matter what, so Ravens aren't able to cast any spells, including Point Defense Drone making your Stalkers that much stronger.

What...do you not understand about "drains ALL energy" including a Point Defense Drone's energy, which is what allows it to absorb shots? Not to forget the fact that if you target the Raven before he lays one down, he can't do anything and he will have taken damage.
=================================================
dave333:
Is roach/ling any good against thor/hellion? I also had blings in the mix too to kill scvs but 6 thors was just really strong and my roaches died to them.

I guess my biggest failing was a failure in expanding after crushing his push.

Yes, you should have expanded. You had him down, could have expanded - and Zerg NEED to expand, even if you don't saturate the bases you need Larva producers and Spawn Larvae is only every 40 seconds.

As for the Mutalisk idea, you were on the right track. Unfortunately, lack of scouting is what deterred you. Try a few changelings. Even if the Changeling dies, you at least get to see what was scouting him. Chances are, your Changeling will die to his army in less than 10 seconds, but you will be able to see what killed your Changeling(s), and that's basically your opponent telling you what he's doing for 25 energy.

Hot Sauce
10-08-2010, 03:25 PM
Lol wow rage! Easy there, no need for the insults. Anyways,

You shouldn't wall in against Terran. All their units are ranged, so they'll snipe all your buildings that are close to the edge.

A 2 warp gate refers to how many gates you have up before the expansion. Why you would automatically assume that I would only have 2 warp gates even after the expansion is saturated is beyond me. o_O

I already said this in my last post, but I'll repeat it. HT cannot come out quite fast enough to stop a banshee/raven/marine timing attack. Unless you fast tech to HT on 1 base, which then leaves you vulnerable to a whole host of Terran 1 base timing attacks. Including cloaked banshees.

I fear that your content has deviated towards actually trying to find a solution for the problem that I'm facing, to just trying to prove me wrong (for some odd reason). It's a Starcraft 2 thread, let's not get carried away here :P

soyizgood
10-08-2010, 05:19 PM
I'm thinking of using ghosts a bit, at least in co-op. David Kim's battle report had those ghosts pwning the protoss. I still think the ghost rifles look dorky and that it's difficult to group manage them, but I can at least fool around with it. I suck at micro with reapers and probably would suck with hellions.

I hate using SCVs to repair armored units, especially during battles. Oh how I long for the Science Vessel.... Science hurts, indeed.

GetBetterer
10-08-2010, 09:31 PM
Hot_Sauce:

I already said this in my last post, but I'll repeat it. HT cannot come out quite fast enough to stop a banshee/raven/marine timing attack. Unless you fast tech to HT on 1 base, which then leaves you vulnerable to a whole host of Terran 1 base timing attacks. Including cloaked banshees.

There is a reason I gave you the build that I did...

And let's not forget you edited what you wrote at 1:40 in comparison to my post time which was 2:19 excluding my frustration.

All Terrans need to do in order to get A Banshee or even a Raven is one Factory which then leads to the Starport. Most people will have a Tech Lab from the Factory or Barracks to attach it on to before that.

Let's not forget any unit warped in by the Warp Gate only takes 5 seconds to Warp In, amongst other facts:

Standard Terran build:
10 Depot
12 Barracks (a little later with the new patch)
13 Refinery
15 Orbital Command

40 + 60 + 30 + 35 = 165

That's excluding any workers in between. The Factory not being in there, along with the Starport, and on top of all that a Tech Lab somewhere.

Now, my build:
10 Pylon
12 Gateway
13 Assimilator
15 Cybernetics Core

25 + 65 + 30 + 50 = 170

That's only 5 seconds slower than the Terran excluding the fact that Protoss have 25 Energy Chronoboost.

Factory + Starport = 120 seconds.

Twilight Council + Templar Archives = 100 seconds.

That's 20 seconds faster, which well makes up for the time.

Also, you've stated your problem:
A 2 warp gate refers to how many gates you have up before the expansion. Why you would automatically assume that I would only have 2 warp gates even after the expansion is saturated is beyond me. o_O

Expansions are important, for any race but you're not scouting enough. An Observer, unlike the High Templar comes out much faster and is a great scout since it's the only invisible one. The Robotics Facility only requires a Cybernetics Core - which my build gets relatively quickly. The Observer will tell you what your opponent is getting and you can determine when, or how to expand as well as what units to counter with if you scout correctly. Not to mention that the build I gave you does set you up for emergencies and the eventual 4 Warp-Gates will allow you to transition to counter just about anything. Also, unless you give us more information on your build it's hard to identify, so explain your build by Food Supply like I did which is how...everyone explains it too.

soyizgood:
I'm thinking of using ghosts a bit, at least in co-op. David Kim's battle report had those ghosts pwning the protoss. I still think the ghost rifles look dorky and that it's difficult to group manage them, but I can at least fool around with it. I suck at micro with reapers and probably would suck with hellions.

I hate using SCVs to repair armored units, especially during battles. Oh how I long for the Science Vessel.... Science hurts, indeed.

Ghosts are amazing in Starcraft 2. Snipe is, in my opinion one of the greatest skills in the game. It's like Psionic Storm but much higher damage per second. Also, I recommend reading this thread to maximizing Snipe:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155732

As for SCV's, I only recommend those for the Thor. However, there are two reasons why people send them out:

1) M.U.L.E.'s mine much much more than SCV's and can take their place while SCV's go out into battle.

2) The SCV is the ONLY melee unit for the Terrans. The next best unit is the Marauder but not everyone wants to go Marauders/Marines/Medivacs.

Hot Sauce
10-08-2010, 11:49 PM
I edited my post because I wanted to move one line down, lol.

What you've listed supply by supply is not a "build" by any means. It's what Protosses do before they kill the scouting worker. It is virtually identical for every single Protoss going standard (not cheesing). You said you explained your build supply by supply, but it's seriously comical to think that 10 pylon (why not 9?), 12 gate, 13 gas, 15 core is a build.

From what you're telling me, and I want you to confirm this, is that you want me to go 1gate and tech straight to high templars on 1 base? And how many gateways did you want me to throw down after the templar tech? And you want me to get a robo out for an observer?

I know you play Zerg, but this is just ridiculous. How are you even ragging on a 2 warp gate expand build vs Terran? It's so incredibly common and effective. Everyone knows that Terran has a huge advantage early game and it eventually starts to even out the later the game goes on. Day9 has had several dailies on builds like this. You want to build as little as possible (just enough to defend) so you can get your economy going and go straight to colossus or high templar. You're also forgetting that Terran can tech pretty hard because they have bunkers. Protoss straight teching is so incredibly risky.

If you want the technicals of my build, it's:

9 pylon
12 gate
14 gas
15 pylon
16 core
another gate
stalker
warpgate research
nexus

It's not different than a 2 rax expand. You know you don't have to tech on 1 base before you expand. YOU don't have to go lair->spire before you expand, do you?

I'm done here. I have nothing to gain from continuing this conversation. I'm trying my best to see it from your point of view, but it leaves me befuddled. It's best to call it quits then.

GetBetterer
10-09-2010, 01:16 AM
TeamLiquid.net:
* 9 Pylon[1]
* 12 Gateway [1] + sent Probe to scout
* 14 Assimilator
* 16 Pylon
* 18 Cybernetics Core
* (19 Zealot)[2]
* 23 Pylon
* 24 Stalker
* 25 Warpgate research.
* 27 Gateway
* 28 Sentry
* 30 Two Gateways
* 31 Proxy Pylon

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Protoss_Strategy

All builds for Protoss, Terran or Zerg are all written in the order respective to their food count, hence "2 Gate this this and that" isn't really helpful because you can get 2 Gate at 199 food if you want.

Hot_Sauce:

What you've listed supply by supply is not a "build" by any means. It's what Protosses do before they kill the scouting worker. It is virtually identical for every single Protoss going standard (not cheesing). You said you explained your build supply by supply, but it's seriously comical to think that 10 pylon (why not 9?), 12 gate, 13 gas, 15 core is a build.

From what you're telling me, and I want you to confirm this, is that you want me to go 1gate and tech straight to high templars on 1 base? And how many gateways did you want me to throw down after the templar tech? And you want me to get a robo out for an observer?

I will admit, as a Zerg player I made the mistake of telling you 10 [Food Supply Giving Building or Unit Here] and Protoss get it at 9 generally.

Also, that's the starting build order. It transitions onto several other builds. This does not mean you run the entire build on one Gateway the entire time, or one base. Also, don't try to use Red Herrings, especially on the internet.

I would highly recommend reading that TeamLiquid.net guide, some things I do think are incorrect in my personal opinion, but most of it is legitimately helpful.

dave333
10-09-2010, 08:08 AM
I would use teamliquid, find 3 builds for each of the 3 matchups, and just do those exact builds over and over.

Mechanics are what make a good starcraft player. See: Idra. His mechanics are seriously top notch, and though he may not have much else, he is still one of the top zergs in the world.

soyizgood
10-09-2010, 10:18 AM
The way things are going with the patches, there may be some truth to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW1bVAtiTvM&fmt=22

LOL @ 0:32

GetBetterer
10-09-2010, 10:57 AM
Dave, although I recommend that idea for starters from Bronze - Gold, eventually people will get to changing strategies and you have to adapt builds accordingly. I think only the Protoss have a lot of versatility since they can just warp out the unit they want from the Warp Gate.

soyizgood
10-10-2010, 04:20 PM
Few things are worse than having a zerg noob as teammate vs medium AI. Try having 2 zerg noobs as teammates. One of them didn't even kill a single unit.

GetBetterer
10-10-2010, 04:47 PM
That's why you do 1 vs 1, or 4 vs 4. In a 4 vs 4 you can at least learn from your allies.

Also, if you do lose in a 1 vs 1, you can go to your opponent's camera and see EXACTLY what he did.

soyizgood
10-14-2010, 07:38 PM
Patch 1.1.2 is out. Not liking the changes (then again I play Terran):

StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty – Patch 1.1.2

General

Players will no longer receive achievement toasts while their status is set to "Busy."
The messaging when attempting to load a saved game or replay from a previous version has been clarified
Adjusted the amount of points earned and lost by random team participants to properly reflect the strength of a player's teammates.




Balance


PROTOSS
Buildings
Nexus life and shields increased from 750/750 to 1000/1000.
Void Ray
Damage level 1 increased from 5 to 6 (+4 armored).
Damage level 2 decreased from 10 (+15 armored) to 8 (+8 armored).
Flux Vanes speed upgrade bonus decreased from 1.125 to 0.703.


TERRAN
Buildings
Barracks requirement changed from Command Center to Supply Depot.
Supply Depot life increased from 350 to 400.
Medivac
Acceleration reduced from 2.315 to 2.25.
Speed reduced from 2.75 to 2.5.
Reaper
Nitro Packs speed upgrade now has a Factory Requirement.
Thor
Energy bar removed.
250mm Strike Cannons is now cooldown-based on a 50-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown available (useable immediately after upgrade is researched).


ZERG
Buildings
Hatchery life increased from 1250 to 1500.
Lair life increased from 1800 to 2000.
Spawning Pool life increased from 750 to 1000.
Spire life increased from 600 to 850.
Ultralisk Cavern life increased from 600 to 850.
Corruptor
Energy bar removed.
Corruption is now cooldown-based on a 45-second cooldown. Ability starts with cooldown expired (must wait for full 45-second cycle before usable).
Infestor
Fungal Growth now prevents Blink.
Roach
Range increased from 3 to 4.




Bug Fixes

Fixed an issue where players could not cast the Feedback spell on Point Defense Drones.
Fixed an issue where the Phoenix would continue to channel Graviton Beam after the target died.
Fixed an issue that would cause Larvae to spawn and be hidden behind Zerg eggs.
Fixed an issue where players were unable to navigate to the Single Player page or watch replays after canceling map downloads from the queue.
Fixed a desync that could occur on user-created maps with custom mod dependencies.

GetBetterer
10-14-2010, 07:45 PM
Loving the changes - then again, I play Zerg.

dave333
10-14-2010, 08:33 PM
4 roach range is sick apparently; stops thor from hitting hatch, and hellion harass is done cold, and you do pretty well against MMM with just pure roach. Roach/bling/ling looks super good now. Of course, still nice to add in some muta.

GetBetterer
10-14-2010, 08:58 PM
Yes, but the increased Roach range now also allows you to have a good mix of Hydralisks without being COMPLETELY blocked off by one forcefield.

soyizgood
10-15-2010, 12:44 PM
These changes have neutered the Terran. Slower units, more delays that render rushes to being impractical, and we gained almost nothing. Protoss and especially Zerg fans are probably rejoicing. I guess the developers had to make them feel good after Terrans whooped the Zerg at Char and made those Taldarim Protoss burn. Terrans will be back!

Kyle7286
10-15-2010, 12:48 PM
However, terran can still go bioball stimpak and kite everything to death with with medvacs.

Hot Sauce
10-15-2010, 03:07 PM
Lol Toss getting nerfed again. This time it's really big with the voidray damage just getting owned. It doesn't make sense why they would nerf the VR so hard and leave the Banshee AKA The Flying Dark Templar alone. Let's be honest in PvT at high levels, VR's were not a problem at all for Terran. Banshees force Protoss to build an early Robo just because the threat of them, and they can be used really well integrated with vikings, ravens, and ground army.

dave333
10-15-2010, 04:12 PM
^I think the reason of the void ray nerf was that at lower levels, and in team games, void rays are soo powerful.

Banshees are indeed super powerful though, especially against T. I'm not exactly sure why banshees/rauders received no nerf.

Thors are buffed now though against P. Can't be feedbacked.

dave333
10-17-2010, 04:13 PM
Trying to do all in on brutal...i'm doing the mind control technique but I don't think i'm getting enough mutas. it's pretty brutal.

RAWRR

soyizgood
10-17-2010, 04:27 PM
I need to win a co-op medium match vs AI playing zerg to get 10 more pts. 3 for 3 playing protoss even though I feel awkward playing it. The Zerg tech tree is so much more difficult to grasp.

dave333
10-17-2010, 09:55 PM
Finallly got the kerrigan portrait. I went back to an earlier save, got MC, sped through the game on casual getting the right upgrades, then just ended up mind controlling like 80+ mutalisks, 20 broodlords, and having a bajillion medivacs/science vessels and just camped. the broodlings just caused havoc with ground atttacks (i also MCed ultras!) and mutas destroyed kerrigen with the broodlings.

soyizgood
10-17-2010, 10:19 PM
Finallly got the kerrigan portrait. I went back to an earlier save, got MC, sped through the game on casual getting the right upgrades, then just ended up mind controlling like 80+ mutalisks, 20 broodlords, and having a bajillion medivacs/science vessels and just camped. the broodlings just caused havoc with ground atttacks (i also MCed ultras!) and mutas destroyed kerrigen with the broodlings.

Did you opt to take out the ground units or the air units? Because I've heard taking on the air units is a real pain for "All In".

dave333
10-17-2010, 11:25 PM
Yeah I took air units. First try I didn't have MC and I ended up stuck at around 94% when the big waves really start coming. Just couldn't do it.

Then I went and got all the base upgrades, medivac double heal, and mind control. Had probably like 20 hive emulators and was contantly building them, just kept MCing mutas, brood lords till I just had this huge laggy ball of mutas that crushed everything, with broodlords just infinitely delaying any attacks. Mass medivacs to heal them, and then some MMM/tanks but those all died later anyway.

Was pretty fun, I clicked sooo much and I was really active.

dave333
10-18-2010, 08:58 PM
I suck at ZvZ so hard....jesus. 5 losses in a row. I didn't use infestors well/did poor job expoing enough for 2, got 8 pool 2 crawlered 2x even though I scouted the fast pool, and lost to mass roach the 5th.

Ugh. I'm terrible at ZvZ. I just don't have the sense

soyizgood
10-18-2010, 09:37 PM
^^^ So do you fast expand or build a 2nd hatch in the main? I'm thinking it's a pain to keep up with queens mid to late game. Zerg is by far the hardest race to master. I'm learning the basics bit by bit. I seem stuck on making roaches and hydralisks.

GetBetterer
10-19-2010, 01:21 AM
They're not that hard...for Koreans. ^^

dave333
10-19-2010, 09:37 AM
lol I have 110 APM on average X_X I mean it isn't terrible but I can't always get everything done I need to, and I lack the APM for fancier stuff like overlords drops while creating a roach concave and magic box mutas from the side while I larva inject/creep spread and expo and everything. Too much for the brain right now.

Anyway...tips on ZvZ? Should I try roach rushes/mass roach? I'm so much better vT or vP because I'm so used to defending minimally, getting booming econ, then steamrolling with the bigger army. Can't do thatt vZ :/

GetBetterer
10-19-2010, 03:43 PM
110? o_O Yuck. Get up to 140's, 150's, typing insults to your enemy included.

Z vs. Z is a tricky match up because you should always have the later pool.

As soon as your opponent puts down his Spawning Pool, you put yours down. This way, you can have a stronger economy than him/her, but simultaneously have Zerglings out in case your opponent chooses to Zergling rush you.

Then, you have to keep scouting him. If he goes Mutalisks, you can go Hydralisks easily and completely devastate him. Hydralisks build faster, deal more damage per second, and the Hydralisk Den itself also builds faster than the Spire as well. They're also just as fast as Mutalisks - but only on Creep.

If they went Mutalisks, what you can do is create a Evolution Chamber(s) for your upgrades, and Spore Crawlers which also allows your Hydralisks to move out to end your opponent.

Although, my favorite is mass roaches with mass Queens healing them, hehe. Queens are great anti-air, Roaches are great anti-ground. Along with Transfusions, you can't lose - even though it is an all in.

dave333
10-20-2010, 10:51 AM
I know right? I am only 1400 Diamond (big bonus pool though...spent soo much time with the brutal campaign lol) here in NA so really it isn't awful, and I don't spam my movement commands too much except in battle so it isn't terrible. It's better than my 120 BW APM though since you need so much more APM in BW

Darko
10-20-2010, 01:29 PM
I just got to silver 1v1 :D

dave333
10-22-2010, 07:27 AM
^Good job, keep working on your macro! You can get into Diamond if you basically do 2 things 1. Macro 2. Scout. Hell you probably don't even need to scout too much. If you are playing toss/terran, the key concept is to 1. keep building workers and 2. always spend your money, except when you need to save up for some new building. If you can do that well, diamond for you. Zerg is trickier.

Meanwhile, isn't APM in SC2 not in real time? so my 110 APM in SC2 is more like 150 in real time?

GetBetterer
10-22-2010, 05:30 PM
Doesn't matter, I'm relating your APM to it's scale that you have.

Also, there was a supposed thing about it being 33% more, but then it was debated again that the thing was fixed in one of the patches.

soyizgood
10-23-2010, 08:23 AM
I just noticed that Protoss have 3 super units compared to 1 for Terran and Zerg. Carriers, Colossus, and Mothership require 6 supply each. I think carriers are a bit overglorified (are they really twice as good as brood lords)? Mothership is crazy even after nerfing the vortex feature.

GetBetterer
10-23-2010, 03:01 PM
The Terran have the Thor and the Battleship.

Zerg isn't really supposed to have a super unit, as they're job is to overpower in numbers, although Blizzard seems to have forgotten that in Starcraft 2. Either way, Zerg have two as well: Ultralisk, and the Brood Lord.

If your opponent gets Carriers or Battlecruisers, I would like to be the first to say:

You're doing it wrong.

dave333
10-24-2010, 11:37 AM
IMO I think the Thor comes out a bit early for such a super unit. They are probably the best single overall unit in the game. Mass thor is beaten by few units.

And maaaan I do not like zvz. It's okay when it gets to a long zerg game (I win all my long ones) but I just have no sense what to do at the beginning. I keep telling myself to go mass roach but then end up doing a bling/sling thing anyway and the whole thing becomes the standard show.

GetBetterer
10-24-2010, 01:12 PM
dave333:
And maaaan I do not like zvz. It's okay when it gets to a long zerg game (I win all my long ones) but I just have no sense what to do at the beginning. I keep telling myself to go mass roach but then end up doing a bling/sling thing anyway and the whole thing becomes the standard show.

Read my post above. ^^

Hot Sauce
10-24-2010, 07:20 PM
Woo, I'm up to 130apm. I know it doesn't mean much, but to me it's a bit of an indicator that I'm progressing and improving as a player. In beta I was a 1 base player. The 3 gate robo, 2 immortal push got me into diamond easily. After retail release, it got me into diamond easily but I grew tired of it and got pretty cocky. I thought my Diamond 16 was so legit, not even aware of the higher level intricacies of the game. But I was quickly humbled, losing to players with better macro. If my 1 base push didn't work, I would usually lose the game. So from then to now I've just wanted to improve, and I have. It's a funny feeling knowing how unbelievably bad you were compared to now, and remembering how good I thought I was.

I still remember one of the very first games of SC2 I played. I had no RTS background prior to playing SC2. My friend got me a beta key, and we played a 1v1 game. I literally NO idea what structures or units to build, or any sense of build order. I didn't want to "micro" either, I just wanted to 1a and watch the fight. I've come a long way.

Back to APM, I remember 3 main milestones. I capped APM at 80 as a 1 base player, 100 as I wanted to play on 2+ bases, but was still very uncomfortable, and now 130 as I just appreciate the power of macro so much. Very comfortable on 2 bases, but still with major flaws in my macro.

/end diary entry :P

dave333
10-25-2010, 09:36 AM
Well I've discovered APM spam so no longer does my APM crawl from like 50 at the beginning up, it now starts at like 300 and climbs down, then stabilizes.

54545454545454545 while boxing drones XD

Just spam though, I need to improve my effective APM though I am basically always busy anyway so improving will just mean getting more efficient.

dave333
10-26-2010, 07:22 PM
lol dominating ZvT right now. I lost only one because even though I had 3 bases, they weren't nearly saturated enough I think, and then got rolled by a huge mass thor/hellion/rauder push (didn't make enough mutas)

ZvP is fine if they go robo/4 gate but the issue I have is with phoenixes. I'm pretty bad with a roach/hydra timing push. I have yet to try popping some corruptors, as well as more mutas. I figure 1 stargate is going to get crushed by my mutas and 2 stargates means that I can do a tech switch to ling/roach since I usually get roaches anyway and attack their weaker ground army.

I had a stupid loss today where even though the phoenixes literally did no damage except a few ovie kills, I still lost because my hydra/roach push was turned around just as a collossus popped.

GetBetterer
10-27-2010, 10:11 PM
dave333:
I had a stupid loss today where even though the phoenixes literally did no damage except a few ovie kills, I still lost because my hydra/roach push was turned around just as a collossus popped.

Actually, I would disagree that the phoenixes did no damage. You didn't have Overlords that could scout, you had to build more (Overlords give supply, creep, can upgrade to Overseers for vision which could have helped you with scouting more, and cost money, it is vital they stay alive). In addition, because they died, your scouting lacked. You even show it to us when you say they built phoenixes to kill your overlords - YOU SHOULD HAVE SEEN THEM COMING!

dave333
10-28-2010, 12:20 PM
Well I mean he had 5 phoenixes and killed a few ovies before 3 of them died to his mistake. But yeah he forced me to retreat my scouting overlords so I couldn't scout no more.

How deal with this? I scouted this again the other day and just roach all-ined him. Is this a must?