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View Full Version : Is Cheating Rampant in USTA Leagues?


new_tennis_player
08-11-2010, 10:19 PM
I was talking to a couple of people at the BOTW, and they had both played in usta leagues. Both said they no longer played since they got tired of their opponents cheating.

Now, among the people I play with, 90% either make calls fairly, or are generous to a fault. So I'm hoping the people I spoke to are not a representative sample.

What's your experience with opponent's line calling in league play?

GuyClinch
08-11-2010, 10:30 PM
If you hit it anywhere NEAR the back line its out - or near any service line - out. So cheating is an issue - to some extent. Most guys play down around .5 level as well.

You better call out the score with each point and aim your shots well inside the lines..

Bacterio
08-11-2010, 11:52 PM
I agree that players seem quick to call shots near the baseline out. It's almost impossible to see if a shot hit the baseline when you're looking at it from behind unless it was well out.

I usually give the benefit of the doubt and keep on playing a ball that might have been out but most players seem to call those out even when I can see from my side that there was no space between the ball and the line.

That being said, I still think you get the fairest line calls during USTA Leagues and Tournament play. I seem to have more issues with pickup games at public courts.

5263
08-12-2010, 05:23 AM
About 80-20 I'd say when it comes to close calls. Seems about 80% will call it out if they think it was out, opposed to giving the benefit of the doubt to the hitter when they are not sure.

It's not just in leagues though, as Jrs and even the Pros when they are calling their own lines, just don't call the outside of the line good. We had a pro league here with former touring pros/teaching pros and they were some of the worst I've seen when it came to this. When the results get sort of serious, I'm sorry to say that the calling approach is not that of the Code in most cases.

I would say you would get the nod more often on a close one in USTA league play, than you would in self calling serious tourneys.

papa
08-12-2010, 05:48 AM
Unfortunately, I'd say its just about everywhere and at all levels. However, the higher you get the better the calls are in general and that might, to some extent anyway, be that there are generally others watching. Spectators are quick to react to bad calls regardless of who is responsible.

Just look at foot-faults. A good percentage of players now do it on every serve especially at the lower levels. When you try and correct it the response is generally, "it wasn't that bad, or it really doesn't matter". Now its not uncommon to see players faulting with both feet.

Line calls in general are one of the problematic areas of the sport. Even on Har-Tru you see it and players now are experts at erasing marks - too bad but unless the players are committed to an honor system, some of the rules fall apart.

A lot of this is due to pressure (outside and within) but many, and it certainly is not just the younger ones, call everything out or my favorite transpose the scores - I know of a player who can do this with such ease it makes you sick.

supineAnimation
08-12-2010, 07:29 AM
I haven't played USTA for 8 years now, but questionable line calls and gamesmanship were pretty rampant on the 4.5 team I played on, far worse than other tourneys and leagues I've played in before or since. There seemed to be an unspoken understanding that the other guys were gonna call balls on the outside of the lines out and make a stink if you did the same. It got pretty old, frankly, and I've always had a tendency to play anything and everything close from my days working as a hitting partner, and so I definitely got the short end of the stick, at least in my singles matches. Doubles seemed to be a little better... maybe because there are double the sets of eyes on the court, but who knows. But I remember the opposing net player squeaking his shoe against the court just as the server was about to swing at my serve; calling lets on winners if a guy on the next court over got anywhere near to our court; crap like that.

athiker
08-12-2010, 08:04 AM
I was talking to a couple of people at the BOTW, and they had both played in usta leagues. Both said they no longer played since they got tired of their opponents cheating.

Now, among the people I play with, 90% either make calls fairly, or are generous to a fault. So I'm hoping the people I spoke to are not a representative sample.

What's your experience with opponent's line calling in league play?

At the 3.5/4.0 level in our area: No

I only started getting paranoid about it after joining this forum and reading all the horror stories. :lol: I've had consistently good experiences in the couple years, 4 seasons, I've played.

kiteboard
08-12-2010, 08:19 AM
80-20 for bad calls vs. good, sometimes, on balls 6" in! Don't hit the lines or even close to them.

Fedace
08-12-2010, 08:22 AM
only cheat on Break point, set point or game point.

decades
08-12-2010, 09:34 AM
it depends if you think having lots of ringers play is cheating. usta league and regional- national tournaments (ratings) is a breeding ground for people pretending to be a lot worse than they are.

LuckyR
08-12-2010, 10:53 AM
it depends if you think having lots of ringers play is cheating. usta league and regional- national tournaments (ratings) is a breeding ground for people pretending to be a lot worse than they are.

Agreed. Line calls are no different than playing anyone else, usually generous, occasionally (or rarely) questionable. But self rating is ridiculous.

dizzlmcwizzl
08-12-2010, 10:58 AM
I disagree with almost everything here. In general I have had very little difficulty with line calls in USTA matches. Although there will always be mistakes I generally find I benefit from missed calls by my opponents more often than I am harmed by them.

And there have been very few ringers over the last couple seasons. I played and lost to two self rated players this year who were clearly better than me, but I did not find them so much better than me that their rating was completely out of line.

r2473
08-12-2010, 11:02 AM
It isn't called cheating.

Cheating on line calls = "Calling them tight"

Cheating on self-rate = "Conservatively rated"

For example, a former D1 player might be "conservatively rated" a 3.5

only cheat on Break point, set point or game point.

Yes.

You want to "call the lines tight" on the important points only. On the others, feel free to be generous.

I hope this helps in your enjoyment of USTA tennis.

bmwfool
08-12-2010, 11:17 AM
I'm quite surprised with the responses. I've been playing USTA since '99. Sure, you come across players that may hook, but for the most part, players are fair. I hate to see the responses thus far, it's telling me the majority of players out there cheat. I personally won't make a call unless I clearly saw it out. Even if I think it was out, I will not call it unless I know for certain it was.

Fedace
08-12-2010, 11:24 AM
It isn't called cheating.

Cheating on line calls = "Calling them tight"

Cheating on self-rate = "Conservatively rated"

For example, a former D1 player might be "conservatively rated" a 3.5



Yes.

You want to "call the lines tight" on the important points only. On the others, feel free to be generous.

I hope this helps in your enjoyment of USTA tennis.

i think it was Vince Lombardi that said winning isn't everything,,,it is the Only thing.............:)

polski
08-12-2010, 12:44 PM
I disagree with almost everything here. In general I have had very little difficulty with line calls in USTA matches. Although there will always be mistakes I generally find I benefit from missed calls by my opponents more often than I am harmed by them.

And there have been very few ringers over the last couple seasons. I played and lost to two self rated players this year who were clearly better than me, but I did not find them so much better than me that their rating was completely out of line.

I agree dizzl, I don't think I have been hurt by bad calls nearly as much as I have been given an out ball. And many of those I will call on myself...it is just the right thing to do.

In the past two years, I think the self rate problem has been getting taken care of. However, I think that if a 3-strike DQ made you ineligible for 6 months, it would resolve itself quickly.

polski
08-12-2010, 12:46 PM
I'm quite surprised with the responses. I've been playing USTA since '99. Sure, you come across players that may hook, but for the most part, players are fair. I hate to see the responses thus far, it's telling me the majority of players out there cheat. I personally won't make a call unless I clearly saw it out. Even if I think it was out, I will not call it unless I know for certain it was.

AGREE. My good name is way more important to me than a W in a league tennis match.

J_R_B
08-12-2010, 01:07 PM
In the past two years, I think the self rate problem has been getting taken care of. However, I think that if a 3-strike DQ made you ineligible for 6 months, it would resolve itself quickly.

This I disagree with. The people who are caught and bumped are generally people who honestly misrated themselves then started winning blow outs. People who are willfully sandbagging will also throw games/sets/matches or whatever to maintain their "conservative rating" until playoff time. There's no need to further punish someone who never played USTA before, made an honest attempt to self-rate, and just happened to be wrong about it.

RogerRacket111
08-12-2010, 01:10 PM
We played against a Self-rate cheat 4.0 in Playoff who had national experience in juniors in another country. He filled form saying he had no formal experience. They rated him 5.5 and not sure if they DQ'd him.

There are some captains who actively recruit people like this and also tell the they should fill out the form that way. I think the captains need to have some consequences also.

wvtennis
08-12-2010, 01:15 PM
The sandbagging has gotten better in our area, but it has not completely stopped. Alot of this is blame on the questionaire that you fill out on Tennislink when you go to Self Rate. They need to add more questions and change the criteria. A 25 year old kid that just played #2 for a high level Division 1 school schould not be allowed to play 4.5 tennis. What is the point of having a 5.0 and Open if people like this can rate as a 4.5?

As far as line calls, at local league we do not have an overall problem, of course there are a few exceptions to this.

At districts, it is spotty. Depends alot on the situation and the people. Also depends alot on how the match starts out. If a bad call is made in the first few games, the whole match turns into who can make more bad calls.

Steve Huff
08-12-2010, 01:19 PM
I've come across a fair amount of "tight" calls that I'd bet Hawkeye would have overturned. I played one 4.0 doubles match this year where one of the opponents called my partner's serve out before it was 6 feet from the ground---three times (2 of which landed in). Even worse, watch some of the women's league matches. I saw a 4.0 city league playoff match where a woman was calling balls 3-4 feet in out. I was walking to another match when one of our club pro's who was watching the women's match said, "hey Steve, come watch this. You won't believe it". He was right. I thought the women were going to get in a fist fight. One woman called anything over 2 feet from the line out. There was no tournament official there since they had sent some players to other courts. The 2 women on the losing end of the calls just didn't know what to do. It was ugly.

Speaking of "conservative" rating. When my wife first started playing at the 2.5 level, they won the city tournament. In there first match against a team from Shenedoah, my wife hit a lob (common for that level). One of the women stepped back, did a scissor kick to hit the overhead, and bounced the overhead over the back fence. This is a 2.5 now. Pretty "conservative" rating wouldn't you say.

rahuls
08-12-2010, 04:07 PM
I have played USTA leagues for some years now (I am a singles player), and not once have I found someone deliberately cheating me. Sure there have been mistakes but I have found at least my opponents to be quite honest. There was one instance when my opponent at the districts had a match point in the super tie. He came to the net, I lobbed, he ran back but lost the point. My shot would have landed very close to the baseline and the few people watching were on my side of the court so there was nobody other than him to actually see the ball land. He could have well have called it out and nobody would have disputed the call but he said it was in and said "good shot". He went on to win the match. This was 1 of the more egregious examples of fair play i rememeber.

GuyClinch
08-12-2010, 04:08 PM
Well not to sound too cynical but for the people that don't feel they get hooked - its probably their game style. Do you either win or lose your matches badly? Then you won't get hooked. People will give you that call if your kicking the crap out of them OR they are demolishing you. Also if you have a big hard hitting ground stroke game and can hit winners that aren't near the lines you will get good calls.

The shots where you get hooked on - are aces near the lines and long moonballesque deep balls and lobs on the baseline. That's where I noticed the large difference from casual play (in which the men usually call things honest). Its pretty bad but my topspin lobs are one of my best shots. I can really murder some good players with them when they try to come into the net. But in league play I found that shot to be nearly useless because when it goes over the head of the player they will often call it out.. Passing shots are much better for league play..

Women OTOH cheat nearly all the time in league and - even in casual play. Nearly every single time I go to the park I can spot some women fighting and cheating. They are really terrible sports - especially the bad ones. I think this is because they never played sports in HS/College. Its unbelievable and it happens right in the 'show courts' too. I can't believe people have the gall to cheat like that.

In fairness though the good women 4.5 and above I have hit with have all been extremely honest.. So I don't mean to bash all women. Its just the rec 3.0+ crowd that picked up tennis to get some exercise crowd that can be extremely dishonest.

RogerRacket111
08-12-2010, 04:20 PM
What bugs me is in some casual games my opponent will blow the call on the ace and say take two (serves) Its not like its easy for me to hit that spot and ace again. Either give me the benefit of the doubt if your not sure or call it out and own up to it, take two is stupid.

new_tennis_player
08-12-2010, 04:36 PM
These replies are reassuring. It's impossible to eliminate bad calls, but it seems like for the most part people respect fair play.

Are there officials or judges for any finals matches?

I can't see USTA implementing hawkeye for rec tournaments?

r2473
08-12-2010, 05:11 PM
I can't see USTA implementing hawkeye for rec tournaments?

Our league uses the hawkeye system. Even on the outer courts. I thought everyone was using it by now.

destroyer
08-12-2010, 05:24 PM
Cheating dominates, akin to professional wrestling.

dizzlmcwizzl
08-12-2010, 06:57 PM
These replies are reassuring. It's impossible to eliminate bad calls, but it seems like for the most part people respect fair play.

Are there officials or judges for any finals matches?

I can't see USTA implementing hawkeye for rec tournaments?

In local layoffs and beyond you have roving officials. You can call them over if you are having a dispute or if you need them to keep an eye on your lines. They likely wont do the whole match but they will give you an extra impartial set of eyes during tiebreaks and such.

new_tennis_player
08-12-2010, 09:44 PM
Our league uses the hawkeye system. Even on the outer courts. I thought everyone was using it by now.


How cool is that?!? :)

polski
08-13-2010, 03:18 AM
What bugs me is in some casual games my opponent will blow the call on the ace and say take two (serves) Its not like its easy for me to hit that spot and ace again. Either give me the benefit of the doubt if your not sure or call it out and own up to it, take two is stupid.

That's not the rule. If you hit an ace & they call it out, then fess up that it is in - it is your point. On the other hand, if you hit a serve that they call out, but they still returned it into the court - they can call let.

This situation has been in Court of Appeals in Tennis Mag several times. Admitting a mistake is in line with the Code.

Angle Queen
08-13-2010, 03:30 AM
I disagree with almost everything here. In general I have had very little difficulty with line calls in USTA matches. Although there will always be mistakes I generally find I benefit from missed calls by my opponents more often than I am harmed by them.Same here. I think I "get" more good calls than bad or even marginal calls. And I really can't think of a match (in my 7+ years of USTA) where the problem was perpetual. Sure, there was a call that maybe didn't go my way, but there's seldom a second one in the same match.

My partner and I agree. 99% out...is still 1% in....and therefore called IN. We'll even overrule each other...just to make sure we give our opponents every benefit of the doubt. It's just not worth it to hook.

Perry the Platypus
08-13-2010, 08:41 AM
I think that most of the time people call the lines fairly. I honestly think I get more good calls (out balls called in) than bad calls (in balls called out). I just don't see a lot of hooking.

One thing we all have to remember is that there is a difference in a missed call and a hook. Even professional linespeople who are sitting on the line miss calls from time to time. The advent of hawkeye has shown us this happens more than once per match. That is part of the game and for the most part I think we all just have to accept it.

Now, if your opponent seems to only miss calls at deuce or game point there may be a problem......

catfish
08-13-2010, 10:28 AM
I think that most of the time people call the lines fairly. I honestly think I get more good calls (out balls called in) than bad calls (in balls called out). I just don't see a lot of hooking.

One thing we all have to remember is that there is a difference in a missed call and a hook. Even professional linespeople who are sitting on the line miss calls from time to time. The advent of hawkeye has shown us this happens more than once per match. That is part of the game and for the most part I think we all just have to accept it.

Now, if your opponent seems to only miss calls at deuce or game point there may be a problem......

I agree with you. I think that sometimes people may miss a call, but they are making a mistake and not trying to cheat the opponent. And I'm not going to get all worked up if someone makes a mistake. I've played tennis for about 10 years, and I honestly think that I have been "cheated" on line calls maybe 5 times. And out of those few times, only once did the call affect the outcome of the match. But so what. I got PO'd at the time, but soon forgot it. I still see the person who I thought cheated me on match point. Turns out, I've never lost to that person again, and it also turns out that person is really a nice person. In all the times we've played over the years, I've never seen any bad line calls. Maybe it was just a fluke. Or maybe that person really saw the ball out. I don't know.

Line calls are a frequent topic among league players, and I think people get too worked up over the issue. Balls that are out by an inch or two may look in from the opposite side of the court. I give people the benefit of the doubt. My eyesite is not perfect, so something that looks in to me, may not really be in.

GuyClinch
08-13-2010, 12:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCRV9sfPxoQ

Go 1:59 seconds into that video - and tell me you don't see hookin. <g>

new_tennis_player
08-13-2010, 12:10 PM
In by a country mile.

http://i35.tinypic.com/23jmp93.jpg

r2473
08-13-2010, 12:15 PM
Go 1:59 seconds into that video - and tell me you don't see hookin. <g>

That is why this guy is 3.5.........ya gotta save those calls for the important points. Sheesh. Oh well, he'll get the hang of it one of these days.

rh310
08-13-2010, 12:35 PM
I've seen a lot more hooking in club ladders than I've ever seen in the USTA leagues.

J_R_B
08-13-2010, 01:18 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCRV9sfPxoQ

Go 1:59 seconds into that video - and tell me you don't see hookin. <g>

There is a difference between blowing a call and intentionally cheating. I know who that guy is. He's not a cheater, he just makes very bad calls every now and again. I saw him make a call like that in a friendly match a couple years ago on a court next to me. I was thinking "wow, that was really bad" at the the time, and then I saw this video. You may think it's impossible not to see that ball in, but people's eyes see strange things sometimes.

BTW, the other guy in that video retired after 1 set and has never played USTA again. I wonder if that had anything to do with it or if there were other calls like that in the set?

beernutz
08-13-2010, 02:31 PM
That's not the rule. If you hit an ace & they call it out, then fess up that it is in - it is your point. On the other hand, if you hit a serve that they call out, but they still returned it into the court - they can call let.

This situation has been in Court of Appeals in Tennis Mag several times. Admitting a mistake is in line with the Code.

I think the rule is that the receiver can call a let in that situation unless they have hit a 'weak sitter'. That part of the rule is one of those ambiguous judgment calls that I hate, because what actually constitutes a weak sitter? Sometimes you can win a point with a weak sitter return if it just clears the net, so why should you be penalized for hitting one?

GuyClinch
08-14-2010, 12:58 AM
There is a difference between blowing a call and intentionally cheating. I know who that guy is. He's not a cheater, he just makes very bad calls every now and again. I saw him make a call like that in a friendly match a couple years ago on a court next to me. I was thinking "wow, that was really bad" at the the time, and then I saw this video. You may think it's impossible not to see that ball in, but people's eyes see strange things sometimes.

Yeah that's what those guys want you to think. :P They are just a "nice guy" that conviently gets calls wrong but in their favour. Every criminal thinks he is the victim. Hell ask some prisoners 90% of them claim innocent and the other 10% have some story as to why they were pressured into it..

new_tennis_player
08-14-2010, 04:30 PM
There is a difference between blowing a call and intentionally cheating. I know who that guy is. He's not a cheater, he just makes very bad calls every now and again. I saw him make a call like that in a friendly match a couple years ago on a court next to me. I was thinking "wow, that was really bad" at the the time, and then I saw this video. You may think it's impossible not to see that ball in, but people's eyes see strange things sometimes.

BTW, the other guy in that video retired after 1 set and has never played USTA again. I wonder if that had anything to do with it or if there were other calls like that in the set?

Take a look again at the still. Dude is looking RIGHT AT THE BALL. It obviously lands in and he knows it. He then points at a spot where the ball supposedly landed. Even if the ball had landed where he said it did, it STILL would have been in.

He's a cheater.

You acknowledge it too, stating that it could have been a factor in his opponent "retiring." This is why the people I spoke to quit playing: instead of becoming confrontational, they decided they had had enough with cheaters.

West Coast Ace
08-15-2010, 09:52 AM
Yeah that's what those guys want you to think. :P They are just a "nice guy" that conviently gets calls wrong but in their favour. Amen. The 'nice guys' are grinning like Cheshire Cats on the drive home knowing they 'blew' 3 or 4 calls like that in a match they stole.

Blade0324
08-16-2010, 07:09 AM
I have to agree with those that say line calls are pretty bad in general. I would say in my experience in mens it's about 50/50 bad to good line callers, but the bad ones are really bad. If a ball is within 6-8 inches of a line it's out. I would also say in my area that women are much worse line callers than the men. I have seen many many many womens matches that the line calling is wrong more than it is right. I even had one mixed partner that I constantly over ruled her calls because they were so bad. Seems like women around here operate under when in doubt, call it out. Or if you really can't see it call it out too. Or if it's in and you can't get to it call it out.

Perry the Platypus
08-16-2010, 08:34 AM
@ above - I have never seen a ball that was half a foot in called out......and I've been playing 20 plus years. Where do you play - in a federal penitentiary? ;)

Cindysphinx
08-16-2010, 10:10 AM
Bad line calls aren't all that big a deal. Maybe I feel that way because I play doubles and there are four sets of eyes to help get things right?

What is really unforgivable and not punished enough is deliberate cheating.

The captain who put two teaching pros on her 7.0 mixed doubles team. Legend has it that she was suspended from captaining but has served out her suspension and is back to captaining. It should have been a lifetime ban from USTA play.

The Div. I female player who self-rated at 3.0, changing the spelling of her name to something unusual (Rebekka instead of Rebecca) to avoid being caught. Made it to the playoffs before someone recognized her. Don't know the penalty for that one.

The teams who try to have a ringer play in place of another player. This, I am told, is the reason everyone must show ID at Districts and beyond.

The teams who know someone is stuck in traffic, so they fill out the line-up with the sub. Then once they know the late player is on site, they have the sub fake an injury during the warm-up so they can substitute. Section coordinator told this story to the captains at the captain's meeting, so I assume it is true.

I think USTA should issue a report annually with such blatant violations listed, with the punishment given. Banning should happen for such instances of blatant cheating, IMHO.

rh310
08-16-2010, 10:53 AM
@ above - I have never seen a ball that was half a foot in called out......and I've been playing 20 plus years. Where do you play - in a federal penitentiary? ;)

I've definitely seen that when watching college tennis. Worst cheating I've ever seen (as a spectator).

rh310
08-16-2010, 10:56 AM
This is why the people I spoke to quit playing: instead of becoming confrontational, they decided they had had enough with cheaters.

I had a guy hook me badly on a midcourt volley in a club ladder match. He looked right at me and smirked when he did it.

I called his next shot out, even though it was an easy three feet inside both lines. I looked at him and said, "Is this the kind of match we're going to have?"

I had no issue with any other calls he made, ever.

Why give a guy like that a W by retiring?

Hooked
08-16-2010, 12:16 PM
Although I haven't played USTA, it has been my experience that most players are generous with their lines. Only calling outs if they see daylight between the line and the ball. Perhaps USTA changes that a bit as people have more riding on each match and call tighter lines. I tend to hit the lines quite a bit so I'm sure I would go ballistic if I ran into someone that was calling them out all of the time. I could understand missing a few calls by reading the rise of a heavy ball instead of the landing point, but anything landing inside a line that is called out is simply unacceptable. Perhaps it is simply too difficult for some egos to admit they made a bad call even when they know inside that they blew it.

athiker
08-17-2010, 09:21 AM
I have posted earlier about personally not having problems with USTA line calling (team events, never played a tourney) but after a match last night I wondered something. Do you think players are under more pressure to call tight lines in USTA b/c they don't want to let teammates down by losing their match?...this vs. a non-USTA singles match where its just them. I know some guys get nervous about letting their partner down in USTA doubles play and maybe this sometimes manifests in line calls...IDK.

One other more relevant comment is re: an earlier post about loose line calls on unimportant points, but more questionable calls on important points.

Anyway, I had a singles Compass match yesterday. I think we both called very fair lines and gave some leeway on some close line calls on both the serve and during play. I dropped the first set 4-6. The second set was 6-6 and went to a 7 point tiebreak. At 8-9 match point for my opponent I hit a deep ball, backhand side that was probably out. If he had called it out I wouldn't have questioned it. I could not see definitive space from my side as I was pretty deep in my court as well but it was no question at best on the outside of the line. My opponent played the ball and I won the point quite a few strokes later.

Now he did say after the point that he might've blown it and mentioned that sideline ball but he did not try to then claim the point retroactively. :) He simply said he wasn't sure so had to play it. I told him I couldn't definitively see it out, but wouldn't have argued if he'd called it out. Anyway, he ended up winning the tiebreak anyway 10-12 so it wasn't a match changer. He actually had made a comment before we started about how he called lines...if he wasn't sure he would call it in...so he was true to his word....even on match point.

So do you think it may have been different in a USTA doubles match?

athiker
08-17-2010, 09:30 AM
I've seen a lot more hooking in club ladders than I've ever seen in the USTA leagues.

Interesting...just reading back through posts...pretty much just the opposite of my theory!...oh well.

Fedace
08-17-2010, 09:34 AM
Interesting...just reading back through posts...pretty much just the opposite of my theory!...oh well.

I consider anyone that calls footfault,,,a CHEATER....

r2473
08-17-2010, 09:47 AM
I've definitely seen that when watching college tennis. Worst cheating I've ever seen (as a spectator).

Why do you think they play lets in college?

Calling a let is the easiest way to steal an ace from your opponent. And what can you really do when this happens? You can't really argue a let call, so you just lose your ace.

There are tons of ways to cheat in tennis. There will always be people that take advantage of this fact. It's just the nature of things. The only thing in your control is your own reaction. Are you going to yell and scream? Are you going to call for an official? Are you going to make sarcastic comments? Are you going to tell your friends and family about it (boring them to death)? Are you going to post about it on an internet chat board? Are you just going to let it go and realize that it is just in the nature of the sport and the character of some people?

athiker
08-17-2010, 10:07 AM
Interesting...just reading back through posts...pretty much just the opposite of my theory!...oh well.



I consider anyone that calls footfault,,,a CHEATER....

Confused...footfaults?

Angle Queen
08-17-2010, 10:25 AM
The teams who try to have a ringer play in place of another player. This, I am told, is the reason everyone must show ID at Districts and beyond.Don't I wish. This past weekend, we were all prepared to show both our USTA card and a photo ID...when the desk person announced over the intercom that they would NOT be checking IDs. Isn't that just an invitation to cheat?

We were/are POed. Enough so that when we officially complained about it to a different District official (in the same Section) we were told that they used to check them...but then the ringers just went out and got fake IDs. To me that says they know they have a problem but just refuse to do anything about it.

But c'mon! Fake ID just to play tennis? That's so far out there. If you/your team wants to win that bad...well then you just go right on ahead with your bad self. Leave me and mine to have friendly and competitive matches...then all go out to lunch together afterwards. I want no part of that other kind.

Line calls this weekend were on the tight-side...but none so egregious that it was worth getting steamed up over.

Texting/coaching...on the other hand...was out of hand. Or so I'm told. I'm so oblivious to that stuff. Quite frankly, I'm unopposed to match coaching but since it's against The Rules, they shouldn't have been doing it. Oh well.

On the whole, though, I still believe there are many, many more "good" players...than "cheaters."

Cindysphinx
08-17-2010, 10:40 AM
Don't I wish. This past weekend, we were all prepared to show both our USTA card and a photo ID...when the desk person announced over the intercom that they would NOT be checking IDs. Isn't that just an invitation to cheat?

We were/are POed. Enough so that when we officially complained about it to a different District official (in the same Section) we were told that they used to check them...but then the ringers just went out and got fake IDs. To me that says they know they have a problem but just refuse to do anything about it.

But c'mon! Fake ID just to play tennis? That's so far out there. If you/your team wants to win that bad...well then you just go right on ahead with your bad self. Leave me and mine to have friendly and competitive matches...then all go out to lunch together afterwards. I want no part of that other kind.

I cannot even wrap my mind around that. I mean, think of how much group dishonesty is involved with something like that. You need the captain to be a blatant cheater, willing to risk a ban or suspension. You need the player who is being impersonated to go along with it. You need teammates on board with the fraud so someone doesn't blurt out, "Hey, he's not Ted!" And you need to find someone who is well above level but who gets their jollies by beating up on weaker players, all for the chance to win a national championship they didn't deserve.

Still, I don't know what can be done beyond checking ID. I think they still should check ID, though. At least make the cheaters go to the trouble of procuring the fake ID. Maybe that will cause some people to hesitate; that's still a crime, no?

Angle Queen
08-17-2010, 11:05 AM
I cannot even wrap my mind around that. I mean, think of how much group dishonesty is involved with something like that.Yep. Just beyond anything I could even fathom. I just walked away shaking my head. Still am...that anyone would conceive, much less execute, such a devious plan...to win. I'm just about as competitive as they come but no way...I want it any way...but honest.

Cindysphinx
08-17-2010, 11:14 AM
^Say you were on a team that was trying to go to Nationals.

Say you learned that one of the singles players was going to look the other way so that someone else could play at sectionals using that player's name. Captain is aware of it, of course, but feels like getting the win at No. 1 singles is essential.

What would you do?

r2473
08-17-2010, 11:49 AM
^Say you were on a team that was trying to go to Nationals.

Say you learned that one of the singles players was going to look the other way so that someone else could play at sectionals using that player's name. Captain is aware of it, of course, but feels like getting the win at No. 1 singles is essential.

What would you do?

If this question were abstractly posted on an internet message board, I predict 100% of people would be the ethical equivalent of Christ himself.

In the real world...............

goober
08-17-2010, 11:59 AM
Yep. Just beyond anything I could even fathom. I just walked away shaking my head. Still am...that anyone would conceive, much less execute, such a devious plan...to win. I'm just about as competitive as they come but no way...I want it any way...but honest.

Unbelievable but true. Just a couple years ago at Nationals, a Norcal team did just that. They brought in ringers to pose as members of the regular team. There was outrage and some of the team got 10 year suspensions (which I believe was reduced to 1 to 5 years upon appeal- I can't remember the exact details)

Cindysphinx
08-17-2010, 12:56 PM
If this question were abstractly posted on an internet message board, I predict 100% of people would be the ethical equivalent of Christ himself.

In the real world...............

I don't get that. I really don't.

If someone is impersonating me, then I'll go down too if they are caught. Plus, *I* would want to play the match myself and would have no incentive to help the team win that way.

If someone on my team does it, I could get in trouble if I knew about it, theoretically.

The only question in my mind would be whether to blow the whistle openly or to do it as an anonymous tip. It would be far more fun to do it anonymously. Then I could wait for the whole thing to blow up in their faces when they are caught while I sip a frosted drink, secure in the knowledge that I won't be punished.

LuckyR
08-17-2010, 01:28 PM
^Say you were on a team that was trying to go to Nationals.

Say you learned that one of the singles players was going to look the other way so that someone else could play at sectionals using that player's name. Captain is aware of it, of course, but feels like getting the win at No. 1 singles is essential.

What would you do?

That would depend on the consequences of getting found out. If the consequence was losing that single #1 singles match, I have no problem reporting it if the Captain would not listen to reason.

If the consequence was the entire team would get disqualified, I would try doubly hard to have the Captain stop it, but if I failed I would report it... after Nationals were over.

Of course I am never going to Nationals so it is all academic.

Cindysphinx
08-17-2010, 01:48 PM
Oh. You'd wait until after Nationals?

I wouldn't. I wouldn't want someone on the opposing team to have their entire Nationals ruined because I wouldn't step up.

Remember how Ben Johnson juiced and beat Carl Lewis in the 100 meters at the Olympics? Johnson was stripped of his medal and Lewis got the gold, but Lewis didn't get to stand on the top of that pedestal. That's kinda important.

Angle Queen
08-17-2010, 02:14 PM
^Say you were on a team that was trying to go to Nationals.

Say you learned that one of the singles players was going to look the other way so that someone else could play at sectionals using that player's name. Captain is aware of it, of course, but feels like getting the win at No. 1 singles is essential.

What would you do?Squeal like a little pig. I'm too much of a goody-two-shoes. No way am I going down with that ship. First, I'd try try to talk captain and involved players out of it. If they all were insistent, I'd stand there at the check-in desk to make sure no one pulled it off. Then walk off and never play for that captain...or with any of the players that knew about it and wouldn't stand up with me.

If that sounds heavy-handed and holier-than-thou...well, that's the way I see it. Even if I knew we wouldn't get caught (or even if we did and there weren't going to be any severe recriminations), the "win" would forever be tainted. How would you (incl the team) know if you could have done it straight up?

Cindysphinx
08-17-2010, 02:33 PM
+1.

And I would tell everyone I knew -- everyone -- about it. Gotta shine some light on the roaches if you want them to scurry away.

AR15
08-17-2010, 02:53 PM
If this question were abstractly posted on an internet message board, I predict 100% of people would be the ethical equivalent of Christ himself.

In the real world...............


Sadly true.:(

Because today everyone is sooo afraid of offending others, they meekly tolerate such abhorrent behavior.

J_R_B
08-17-2010, 04:20 PM
I would implore the captain and the players involved to stop the shenanigans. If they didn't, I would quit the team. I don't have the time or energy to get involved in some sort of drama over tennis so I doubt I would go to the effort to report it anywhere, but I would never continue to participate in it, either. I have never known anyone in our area to do anything like that, though, for the record.

6789
08-24-2010, 07:51 PM
If you hit it anywhere NEAR the back line its out - or near any service line - out. So cheating is an issue - to some extent. Most guys play down around .5 level as well.

You better call out the score with each point and aim your shots well inside the lines..

Well said. Again, tennis is just about the only sport I know in which a player constantly during an entire contest judges legality of an opponent's effort, ie, whether a ball landed in or out of the service box. Compare to boxing, swimming, football, baseball, track, weightlifting, etc. All of those other sports have a putatively impartial arbiter of some kind for formal contests.

rainman007
08-25-2010, 08:28 PM
I was talking to a couple of people at the BOTW, and they had both played in usta leagues. Both said they no longer played since they got tired of their opponents cheating.

Now, among the people I play with, 90% either make calls fairly, or are generous to a fault. So I'm hoping the people I spoke to are not a representative sample.

What's your experience with opponent's line calling in league play?

in MY experience, i faced some consistant bad calls in the lower level especially the 3.0 level.. as i have climbed levels its happens less frequently.. Also, in MY experience i have had more bad line calls playing with or against seniors than in the adult leagues..

catfish
08-26-2010, 05:02 AM
in MY experience, i faced some consistant bad calls in the lower level especially the 3.0 level.. as i have climbed levels its happens less frequently.. Also, in MY experience i have had more bad line calls playing with or against seniors than in the adult leagues..

I have noticed that many lower level players (especially women) make calls before the ball hits the court. They watch the trajectory of the ball and make a call based on where they think it will land. It happens all the time. They don't seem to understand that spin will hold a ball in. I really noticed it this summer when I played 7.5 combo with a 3.0. I had to tell my 3.0 partner several times to wait for the ball to bounce before she made a call.

coloskier
08-26-2010, 09:24 AM
I watched a 4.0 ladies league match last night a younger woman was making numerous bad calls. It was a very competitive match, and luckily the one making the bad calls lost in the 3rd set, but I have seen it many times. In a 4.5 league match I played last week (since we don't have any 5.0 leagues here), I had a SP and the opponent hit the outside edge of the line and I called it good (because it was), and later in that game I hit a topspin lob that landed 6 inches inside the baseline on another SP and he called it out. I still won the match, but I find it happening a lot more frequently when winning the match means qualifying for Sectionals.

vagabondma
08-26-2010, 02:14 PM
Bad line calls aren't all that big a deal. Maybe I feel that way because I play doubles and there are four sets of eyes to help get things right?

What is really unforgivable and not punished enough is deliberate cheating.

The captain who put two teaching pros on her 7.0 mixed doubles team. Legend has it that she was suspended from captaining but has served out her suspension and is back to captaining. It should have been a lifetime ban from USTA play.

The Div. I female player who self-rated at 3.0, changing the spelling of her name to something unusual (Rebekka instead of Rebecca) to avoid being caught. Made it to the playoffs before someone recognized her. Don't know the penalty for that one.

The teams who try to have a ringer play in place of another player. This, I am told, is the reason everyone must show ID at Districts and beyond.

The teams who know someone is stuck in traffic, so they fill out the line-up with the sub. Then once they know the late player is on site, they have the sub fake an injury during the warm-up so they can substitute. Section coordinator told this story to the captains at the captain's meeting, so I assume it is true.

I think USTA should issue a report annually with such blatant violations listed, with the punishment given. Banning should happen for such instances of blatant cheating, IMHO.

I want to add some facts to the above. In the first case, where the captain brought on teaching pros as 3.5 players (now all 5.0s)- she was actually banned from captaining by the initial grievance committee decision. The captain then hired a lawyer and threatened to sue the local tennis association. The appeals committee ended up overturning the decision.

The same captain was involved in instance 2 above, where the college player self-rated. The college player works with the co-captain of that team. But the college player took full responsibility for the whole thing, so both captains walked away untouched. The college player was banned from USTA play for 2 years and returned to her 4.5 rating.

new_tennis_player
08-26-2010, 02:39 PM
Okay, I couldn't help but read these postings. I shot some video (links below)of a match with my long-time (10+ years) hitting partner and lo and behold, he really blew these two calls. The thing is, we are friends and really enjoy competing, having had some monster matches that were`very, very competitive. When he saw these videos, he was amazed. In his mind's eye, they were out. I believe that he really saw them out, too, but it just goes to show how hard it can be to call lines when you are running and swinging. I'm sure that we all make bad calls, and very rarely do people cheat on purpose.

Not that we should excuse someone who consistently calls in balls out, but what do you do?

Check these out, they are short but fascinating (to me anyway)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no6z9l_sVtk
and especially this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55QUtJa90qE

Sorry about the "commercialism", not my intent. Enjoy!

Perhaps find a new hitting partner? Those balls were not only in, they didn't even touch the lines.

I'm calling everything "in" from now on. :)

I think part of the problem with lines calls for lower level players is that we/they don't know how to call lines properly: .00001% in = 100% in.

rainman007
08-26-2010, 03:58 PM
Okay, I couldn't help but read these postings. I shot some video (links below)of a match with my long-time (10+ years) hitting partner and lo and behold, he really blew these two calls. The thing is, we are friends and really enjoy competing, having had some monster matches that were`very, very competitive. When he saw these videos, he was amazed. In his mind's eye, they were out. I believe that he really saw them out, too, but it just goes to show how hard it can be to call lines when you are running and swinging. I'm sure that we all make bad calls, and very rarely do people cheat on purpose.

Not that we should excuse someone who consistently calls in balls out, but what do you do?

Check these out, they are short but fascinating (to me anyway)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no6z9l_sVtk
and especially this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55QUtJa90qE

Sorry about the "commercialism", not my intent. Enjoy!

a lot of close calls have to do with point of view too,, i mean the driver of a vehichle sees the gas gauge as half full and the passenger sees it at a quarter of a tank i think depending how far over they are..

session404
08-26-2010, 05:06 PM
Okay, I couldn't help but read these postings. I shot some video (links below)of a match with my long-time (10+ years) hitting partner and lo and behold, he really blew these two calls. The thing is, we are friends and really enjoy competing, having had some monster matches that were`very, very competitive. When he saw these videos, he was amazed. In his mind's eye, they were out. I believe that he really saw them out, too, but it just goes to show how hard it can be to call lines when you are running and swinging. I'm sure that we all make bad calls, and very rarely do people cheat on purpose.

Not that we should excuse someone who consistently calls in balls out, but what do you do?

Check these out, they are short but fascinating (to me anyway)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no6z9l_sVtk
and especially this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55QUtJa90qE

Sorry about the "commercialism", not my intent. Enjoy!

Seriously? Your hitting partner needs glasses. They weren't even close. In the second vid, the ball was inside by around 7 inches. I would keep recording videos when you hit with him and show them to him. Maybe he'll gradually "learn" how to see the ball better or something. Or tell him to get an eye exam.

tennisdad65
08-27-2010, 08:55 AM
....So, I figure that in the long run it will make me a better tennis player in matches that really count...

unless the guys in the matches that really count also cheat :)

But, I have the same attitude as you. In our public courts, everyone knows who the poor line callers and foot faulter's are. I just think of playing against them, as playing with a handicap.

If you can improve and beat the cheaters, even with them cheating, you are now probably a full level better than them.

r2473
08-27-2010, 09:33 AM
and especially this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55QUtJa90qE

I agree with the call on this one. It was game point. Great time for it.

new_tennis_player
08-27-2010, 09:37 AM
Notice how the players who "can't believe" they blew a call when it was in, NEVER blow a call by playing balls that are OUT?

Yes, it is somewhat fascinating. He's seen the videos and just shakes his head in "disbelief". He stll remembers, in his mind's eye, seeing the balls out, but it's hard to argue with the video.

I think it was Rockefeller that said "I cheat my kids whenever I can, it makes them smarter", or something like that. So, I figure that in the long run it will make me a better tennis player in matches that really count. Besides, we are good friends and we still have great matches.

Can you teach someone to make better calls - maybe I'll find out!

leafscat
08-27-2010, 09:58 AM
Oh. You'd wait until after Nationals?

I wouldn't. I wouldn't want someone on the opposing team to have their entire Nationals ruined because I wouldn't step up.

Remember how Ben Johnson juiced and beat Carl Lewis in the 100 meters at the Olympics? Johnson was stripped of his medal and Lewis got the gold, but Lewis didn't get to stand on the top of that pedestal. That's kinda important.

Cindy, I agree with what you are saying. However, you need to look for a better example. Turns out Carl was cheating as well!

r2473
08-27-2010, 10:17 AM
Cindy, I agree with what you are saying. However, you need to look for a better example. Turns out Carl was cheating as well!

If you are going to create a list of all track athletes that are / were cheating, we are going to be here a while.

I'd be interested in seeing a list of those that aren't / haven't cheated. That shouldn't take long to compile.

new_tennis_player
08-27-2010, 11:22 PM
My (assigned) doubles partner blatantly cheated today. I lost all respect for her, and I didn't have much for her to begin with.

She serves, the ball is returned easily, and lands right at her feet a couple of inches inside the baseline. She yells "out!"

How could the ball have been out? She was only standing a couple of inches behind the line and the ball obviously landed in front of her.

I wish I could slap people like that.

tennis4josh
08-28-2010, 12:56 AM
My (assigned) doubles partner blatantly cheated today. I lost all respect for her, and I didn't have much for her to begin with.

She serves, the ball is returned easily, and lands right at her feet a couple of inches inside the baseline. She yells "out!"

How could the ball have been out? She was only standing a couple of inches behind the line and the ball obviously landed in front of her.

I wish I could slap people like that.

Did you call that ball in? That would be better than slapping her. I don't argue with my partner. I simply say that ball was in, call the "correct" score loudly and continue. I do this all the time in my doubles matches, and I also encourage my partners to correct my "bad" calls.

tennis4josh
08-28-2010, 01:25 AM
I am surprised that people are so charged up about bad line calls. My experience (or may be how I think) is quite different from most of the posters here.

1. The number of times I have benefited from "benefit of doubt" on part of my opponent is far more than the number of times I have been burned by a "bad" call. So overall my experience is positive.

2. From 3.5/4.0 level players 90 out of 100 are very honest and call lines fairly. Out of remaining 10 folks, about 8 call a ball out because they "honestly" think it was out. Some of these are seniors who have poor eye sight or don't see properly under certain conditions. The last 2 are basically "jerks" and poor sports. I handle them just the same way I handle other jerks in my life (friends, family and co-workers). I ignore them as far as I can, and if I can not tolerate it any more, I confront them. But I would not generalize that experience to conclude that there is rampant cheating in USTA league play.

3. The opponents appreciate and reciprocate if you are generous with your line calls. If my opponent hits an ace which lands couple of inches out, I just call it in and compliment the server. In all honesty I could very well call it out, but the chances are high that next time I hit an ace my opponents will call it out. This is simply human nature. When I am the server I badly want that ace. It may not have any effect on the outcome of the match, but it does boost my ego.

4. When I see a match turn into a competition of who calls more balls out, generally the both sides are to be blamed. What differentiates them is "who started it first".

5. I am competitive and want to win every single match, but what I really enjoy is "playing". I don't remember matches I played more than 3-4 weeks ago, but I do remember all the people I have met over the years and some of them have become good friends over the years. Ultimately my "reputation" among the "tennis community" matters more than my winning record on the USTA website.

Just my 2 cents...

-Josh

beernutz
08-28-2010, 08:28 AM
Okay, I couldn't help but read these postings. I shot some video (links below)of a match with my long-time (10+ years) hitting partner and lo and behold, he really blew these two calls. The thing is, we are friends and really enjoy competing, having had some monster matches that were`very, very competitive. When he saw these videos, he was amazed. In his mind's eye, they were out. I believe that he really saw them out, too, but it just goes to show how hard it can be to call lines when you are running and swinging. I'm sure that we all make bad calls, and very rarely do people cheat on purpose.

Not that we should excuse someone who consistently calls in balls out, but what do you do?

Check these out, they are short but fascinating (to me anyway)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no6z9l_sVtk
and especially this one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55QUtJa90qE

Sorry about the "commercialism", not my intent. Enjoy!
Here's a screen shot from second video *after* the ball bounced and was on the way back up. Pretty LOL out call.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4474/outcall.jpg

BobFL
08-28-2010, 09:15 AM
Here's a screen shot from second video *after* the ball bounced and was on the way back up. Pretty LOL out call.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4474/outcall.jpg

Wow, this is beyond cheating. This is for instant K.O.

hrstrat57
08-28-2010, 10:01 AM
A non confrontational strategy for singles play that I have used with notorious squeezers and recommend trying is this:

Call a clearly out ball(or balls) in.... has to be a shot in clear view of the squeezer usually a short ball on the sideline is best.

The squeezer will eventually ask if you are sure about that it looked
clearly out.

Advise the opponent, sorry I couldn't see clear space between the line and the ball so I played it good.

This usually stops the squeezing. If not you can choose to play avoiding the lines or just tell the opponent you have a pressing matter and have to retire...while shaking their hand.

I will leave it up to you whether or not you chose to rip a winner off of your generous call or not......

Both of my youngsters who played HS and D III tennis employed this strategy with great success.

Personally I never call a ball out unless I see a lot of clear space.....I would rather keep a good rally going. I am sure this applies to most of us on the forum.

I have also found that a lot of casual or new players do not realize that the lines are in play....this is true more than you might think at the HS level(remember the line is out of bounds in basketball).....the above strategy works in teaching proper etiquette there as well vs. confrontation.

Confrontation and tennis don't mix well IMHO.

goober
08-28-2010, 12:08 PM
a lot of close calls have to do with point of view too,, i mean the driver of a vehichle sees the gas gauge as half full and the passenger sees it at a quarter of a tank i think depending how far over they are..

Yah but these balls were so far in that this shouldn't come into play. Plus he should have an excellent view looking straight down on the ball and the line. The only person who would be handicapped from point of view would be his opponent on the other side of court. The only exception may be if the ball came in so fast and he didn't have time to see where the ball landed because it was right by his feet and didn't look down fast enough. But in that case he should give his opponent the benefit of doubt. These were really bad misses IMO.

BobFL
08-28-2010, 12:26 PM
The gas gauge doesn't move as fast as the balls imho :) Seriously, this is just painful to watch....

rainman007
08-28-2010, 02:07 PM
Yah but these balls were so far in that this shouldn't come into play. Plus he should have an excellent view looking straight down on the ball and the line. The only person who would be handicapped from point of view would be his opponent on the other side of court. The only exception may be if the ball came in so fast and he didn't have time to see where the ball landed because it was right by his feet and didn't look down fast enough. But in that case he should give his opponent the benefit of doubt. These were really bad misses IMO.

yeah i said that without watching the video first i watched it later and was thinking wow especially since that ball wasn't crushed and it was in front of him

Commando Tennis Shorts
08-28-2010, 02:38 PM
Here's a screen shot from second video *after* the ball bounced and was on the way back up. Pretty LOL out call.

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4474/outcall.jpg

I'm sorry to say it, but I really believe this guy's partner is cheating him and doing it intentionally. I don't buy the "glasses" argument. You would have to have some horrible vision to not see that those were clearly in. And if his vision is that bad, he wouldn't be able to hit the ball...or see it.

new_tennis_player
08-29-2010, 03:23 AM
Did you call that ball in? That would be better than slapping her. I don't argue with my partner. I simply say that ball was in, call the "correct" score loudly and continue. I do this all the time in my doubles matches, and I also encourage my partners to correct my "bad" calls.

No, I was in disbelief that she called it in. She was looking right at it, too. Obvious cheat.

It turns out a lot of people in my tennis classes are making blatant cheat calls.

One guy told us they were going to call a ball out because he couldn't see it, and also because his doubles partner was a girl. His big nose, grew even bigger like pinochio's.

A couple of extremely heavy guys playing doubles against us decided to call every ball that landed on the baseline out. Easier than running to the ball and trying to hit it, right?

Another doubles team questioned our calls when the shot was out by half a foot.

The list goes on and on.

I want to think well of my classmates, but there are at least a half dozen or more confirmed cheats so far, and this is starting to irritate me.

new_tennis_player
08-29-2010, 04:11 AM
This won't work on cheaters who not only cheat on line calls but cheat on game scores, as well as set scores.

One dude who should never be allowed on a tennis court again tried to call a 2-1 set 3-1. When his opponents asked 'what?' He tried to take yet another game and called it 4-1!!!!! This knucklehead tried to steal 2 games just because his opponents asked for a game count!

He also tries to steal as many points as possible by adding points in games as well. Strangely, this doesn't seem to be bothering his regular hitting partners.

I am surprised that people are so charged up about bad line calls. My experience (or may be how I think) is quite different from most of the posters here.

1. The number of times I have benefited from "benefit of doubt" on part of my opponent is far more than the number of times I have been burned by a "bad" call. So overall my experience is positive.

2. From 3.5/4.0 level players 90 out of 100 are very honest and call lines fairly. Out of remaining 10 folks, about 8 call a ball out because they "honestly" think it was out. Some of these are seniors who have poor eye sight or don't see properly under certain conditions. The last 2 are basically "jerks" and poor sports. I handle them just the same way I handle other jerks in my life (friends, family and co-workers). I ignore them as far as I can, and if I can not tolerate it any more, I confront them. But I would not generalize that experience to conclude that there is rampant cheating in USTA league play.

3. The opponents appreciate and reciprocate if you are generous with your line calls. If my opponent hits an ace which lands couple of inches out, I just call it in and compliment the server. In all honesty I could very well call it out, but the chances are high that next time I hit an ace my opponents will call it out. This is simply human nature. When I am the server I badly want that ace. It may not have any effect on the outcome of the match, but it does boost my ego.

4. When I see a match turn into a competition of who calls more balls out, generally the both sides are to be blamed. What differentiates them is "who started it first".

5. I am competitive and want to win every single match, but what I really enjoy is "playing". I don't remember matches I played more than 3-4 weeks ago, but I do remember all the people I have met over the years and some of them have become good friends over the years. Ultimately my "reputation" among the "tennis community" matters more than my winning record on the USTA website.

Just my 2 cents...

-Josh

MomentumGT
08-29-2010, 08:48 PM
From my experience the higher in level you go, generally, the more generous the line calling is. . .in league play anyways. Today playing a 4.5 league match I got a few "benefit of the doubt" calls and for the most part I did the same if my opponents shots landed close to the lines. All 4 guys in the dubs match were smoking the ball and having a good time at it so it wasn't such a big deal. Beers all around after the match :)

-Jon

beststringer
08-29-2010, 11:24 PM
it all depends on whether you are trying to be competitive. beers after a match?? must be a private club. in public CA courses, one has to pay over 100 usd for insurance for a quick beer after matches.

vandre
08-30-2010, 11:40 AM
only if the people show up!!!

MomentumGT
08-30-2010, 01:13 PM
it all depends on whether you are trying to be competitive. beers after a match?? must be a private club. in public CA courses, one has to pay over 100 usd for insurance for a quick beer after matches.

It was in a public park and beers were provided by the home team. :twisted: Not us. We were definitely being competitive but it just wasn't as if our life depended on it. . .like I've seen on quite a few 3.5 league matches. LOL. Not to say some guys won't take it overly seriously as some teams in our league have a reputation of doing that.

-Jon

beststringer
08-30-2010, 08:25 PM
It was in a public park and beers were provided by the home team. :twisted: Not us. We were definitely being competitive but it just wasn't as if our life depended on it. . .like I've seen on quite a few 3.5 league matches. LOL. Not to say some guys won't take it overly seriously as some teams in our league have a reputation of doing that.

-Jon

you may wanna check with the city before you take out the beers after your home matches. if one of your players get drunk and runs over someone, they may sue you.

new_tennis_player
08-30-2010, 10:41 PM
Here's some more b.s. I'm being subjected to.

We're playing a doubles team. Both guys are at least 60-80 lbs. overweight.

One of them mis hits a ball right into the net. This piece of lard declared the point his because he said the ball was going to go out anyway!

Un friggin believable!

bcart1991
08-31-2010, 05:18 AM
Here's some more b.s. I'm being subjected to.

We're playing a doubles team. Both guys are at least 60-80 lbs. overweight.

One of them mis hits a ball right into the net. This piece of lard declared the point his because he said the ball was going to go out anyway!

Un friggin believable!

I would have laughed him off the court.

Fedace
08-31-2010, 05:25 AM
Did you call that ball in? That would be better than slapping her. I don't argue with my partner. I simply say that ball was in, call the "correct" score loudly and continue. I do this all the time in my doubles matches, and I also encourage my partners to correct my "bad" calls.

NEVER over-rule your partner. It is their call, you don't have the right.

Fedace
08-31-2010, 05:28 AM
My (assigned) doubles partner blatantly cheated today. I lost all respect for her, and I didn't have much for her to begin with.

She serves, the ball is returned easily, and lands right at her feet a couple of inches inside the baseline. She yells "out!"

How could the ball have been out? She was only standing a couple of inches behind the line and the ball obviously landed in front of her.

I wish I could slap people like that.

Remember that ball on or just inside the Baseline with player standing just behind it is the MOST difficult to see. This is the call that most honest mistakes are made. Maybe your partner just honestly saw it OUT.

bcart1991
08-31-2010, 05:38 AM
NEVER over-rule your partner. It is their call, you don't have the right.

I've done it before, and they appreciated it. I've only overruled when I was 100% sure, and I have doggone good vision (20/15).

beernutz
09-01-2010, 08:39 AM
NEVER over-rule your partner. It is their call, you don't have the right.

I disagree. It is the responsibility of both players on a team to make sure the correct call was made. I am pretty sure the USTA agrees with me here.

levy1
09-02-2010, 08:12 AM
Been playing USTA for 25 years. No problems, 95% are right, quite a few players do not know the rule of very close its in. When I run into a cheater I do a couple of things to get his attention. And remember from my side of the court I can always be wrong. I ask these questions.

1. Are you sure of your call?
2. If I think the call was blatantly wrong then I ask the doubles partner," Do you want to overrule your partner".
3. My next move is to announce to everyone that any ball I cannot see is definitively out I will call good.

By this time calls seem to be better.

ttbrowne
09-08-2010, 09:16 AM
Does Rafa pick his butt???
Of course it is. If you play USTA League play, you should expect it.

levy1
09-08-2010, 12:05 PM
I disagree. It is the responsibility of both players on a team to make sure the correct call was made. I am pretty sure the USTA agrees with me here.

I agree, when I am sure the ball is in I overrule my partner.
Only way to be fair not to mention I have played with a few who did not understand the code.

dman72
09-08-2010, 12:51 PM
Remember that ball on or just inside the Baseline with player standing just behind it is the MOST difficult to see. This is the call that most honest mistakes are made. Maybe your partner just honestly saw it OUT.


People shouldn't "guess" on balls in front of them...a lot of guys assume that ball right at their feet or the serve right in front of them is deep.

Somebody needs to tell this to the guy in my league who calls out serves that may be a mm out..that are right in front of him..when he's 4 feet inside the baseline. I have a clearer view of it than he does.

Simple line of sight rule says you cannot actually see space between the line and ball unless it is 3 or more inches out when it is in front of you..so don't call my serve out that is right on the back of the line...besides the fact you can't possibly see it clearly because you are standing 4 feet inside the baseline. I'm not exactly Andy Roddick but give me a break, my first serve hits the fence on one bounce. Maybe that's why you can't return it and you have to cheat?

That's my rant for the day. :)

not_federer
12-01-2010, 04:11 PM
I searched for "cheating" on this forum and found this thread so I have to chime in, mostly because I'm still fresh and angry about a cheater I played last night. Thus begins an angry rant, you've been warned.

This is only my second season playing USTA but I'm already disgusted with it as it seems woefully evident that USTA attracts shameless dirty cheaters. I've played tennis for about 20 years now (I'm in my mid twenties on a 3.5 league though I should get bumped to 4.0 soon) and I've played all sorts of players and been involved in hairy scraps before, but nothing like this - EVER.

I played a guy last night for a makeup match without the rest of my team present. If my team, and captain, were present you can bet I would have halted play to get the captain present for some line calling. During the match he called no fewer than four clean aces out, and several great winners long/wide, all at crucial moments. He interrupted my first and second serve multiple times. He changed the score in a tiebreak from 1-3 to 2-2, giving himself an extra point. I hit a winner behind his back while he was running to the other side of the court and he called it out, without ever seeing the ball because his back was still turned.

I thought about halting play and leaving until I could get a linesman, but out of pride I stuck it out because I wanted to beat him even with his rampant cheating. I won the third set 10 point tiebreaker with brute force, hitting the ball straight in the center of the court nowhere near the lines.

Some other neutral players around the courts were watching and told me afterwards that they couldn't believe his shenanigans, for whatever that's worth.

I've never encountered this sort of behavior anywhere except USTA, and while this is the worst case horror story example the truth is that this behavior is everywhere. I've never seen anyone except this guy actively change the score, or call balls out with his back turned. But gamesmanship, calling phantom lets, interrupting serves, and calling balls that land anywhere near the lines out, etc, are everywhere. It's disgusting.

For me, the vast majority of balls are very clearly either in or out or in the net. Unless I CLEARLY see a ball that lands close to the line is out, I play it. I always feel really bad calling a ball out unless I am 100% sure it is. Loads of times I'll play a ball when my gut instinct says it was out only because I did not have a clear and accurate visual of it landing out.

I've even called my own shots out before for my opponent if I see them struggling with the same dilemma - "do I call it out even though I didn't see it clearly, or play it and possibly lose the point?" If it's out, it's out.

Maybe it gets better at 4.0? Maybe my region (South Florida) is particularly bad? I don't know. I've played a bunch of amateur tournaments at various universities and clubs and have never witnessed shameless cheating of this kind before. I probably won't rejoin USTA after this season.

tl;drI guess I'm shamelessly digging for support and affirmation of my hatred for cheaters here. This is my anecdotal experience, and may not be true for everyone else's usta experience. Regardless, I've never encountered such shamelessly bad cheating anywhere else ever and it profoundly amazes and shocks me that this behavior exists, and is not punished.

Can I file a complaint with USTA or what?

jdubbs
12-02-2010, 06:50 AM
I searched for "cheating" on this forum and found this thread so I have to chime in, mostly because I'm still fresh and angry about a cheater I played last night. Thus begins an angry rant, you've been warned.

This is only my second season playing USTA but I'm already disgusted with it as it seems woefully evident that USTA attracts shameless dirty cheaters. I've played tennis for about 20 years now (I'm in my mid twenties on a 3.5 league though I should get bumped to 4.0 soon) and I've played all sorts of players and been involved in hairy scraps before, but nothing like this - EVER.

I played a guy last night for a makeup match without the rest of my team present. If my team, and captain, were present you can bet I would have halted play to get the captain present for some line calling. During the match he called no fewer than four clean aces out, and several great winners long/wide, all at crucial moments. He interrupted my first and second serve multiple times. He changed the score in a tiebreak from 1-3 to 2-2, giving himself an extra point. I hit a winner behind his back while he was running to the other side of the court and he called it out, without ever seeing the ball because his back was still turned.

I thought about halting play and leaving until I could get a linesman, but out of pride I stuck it out because I wanted to beat him even with his rampant cheating. I won the third set 10 point tiebreaker with brute force, hitting the ball straight in the center of the court nowhere near the lines.

Some other neutral players around the courts were watching and told me afterwards that they couldn't believe his shenanigans, for whatever that's worth.

I've never encountered this sort of behavior anywhere except USTA, and while this is the worst case horror story example the truth is that this behavior is everywhere. I've never seen anyone except this guy actively change the score, or call balls out with his back turned. But gamesmanship, calling phantom lets, interrupting serves, and calling balls that land anywhere near the lines out, etc, are everywhere. It's disgusting.

For me, the vast majority of balls are very clearly either in or out or in the net. Unless I CLEARLY see a ball that lands close to the line is out, I play it. I always feel really bad calling a ball out unless I am 100% sure it is. Loads of times I'll play a ball when my gut instinct says it was out only because I did not have a clear and accurate visual of it landing out.

I've even called my own shots out before for my opponent if I see them struggling with the same dilemma - "do I call it out even though I didn't see it clearly, or play it and possibly lose the point?" If it's out, it's out.

Maybe it gets better at 4.0? Maybe my region (South Florida) is particularly bad? I don't know. I've played a bunch of amateur tournaments at various universities and clubs and have never witnessed shameless cheating of this kind before. I probably won't rejoin USTA after this season.

tl;drI guess I'm shamelessly digging for support and affirmation of my hatred for cheaters here. This is my anecdotal experience, and may not be true for everyone else's usta experience. Regardless, I've never encountered such shamelessly bad cheating anywhere else ever and it profoundly amazes and shocks me that this behavior exists, and is not punished.

Can I file a complaint with USTA or what?

Did you say anything to him? I would have called him out or asked to play 2 if there was a big disagreement. No way I would have put up with that.

I even overrulled my partner yesterday playing doubles, who called a good serve out. I told my opponent to take two, since I saw it in.

Some people suck, but just so you can feel better, those people usually have a life full of frustration in other areas, not just tennis.

Maui19
12-02-2010, 07:03 AM
There is a guy I play against from time to time. He makes an unusual number of bad calls. I watched him in a match the other day and he made several bad calls. His partner made a couple comments that led me to believe he was aware of, and uncomfortable with, his partner's bad calls. Is the guy a cheater? I don't know. I think he just can't see worth a darn.

BTW, you can be 100% sure about a call and still be wrong. It happens all the time.

MethodTennis
12-02-2010, 07:34 AM
it is inthe LTA so ide imagin the usta would be the same

gameboy
12-02-2010, 08:39 AM
In my experience, people in USTA league are very fair with line calls.

People are going to make bad calls. Hell, line judges in major championships make bad calls. Bad calls are part of the game. Just deal with it.

tennis tom
12-02-2010, 10:26 AM
I even overrulled my partner yesterday playing doubles, who called a good serve out. I told my opponent to take two, since I saw it in.

Some people suck...

I believe, since you and your partner disagreed on the call, you're supposed to award the point to your opponents and not call a let.

Agree with you on the sucky people.

tennis tom
12-02-2010, 04:36 PM
Bad calls are part of the game. Just deal with it.



I thought about halting play and leaving until I could get a linesman, but out of pride I stuck it out because I wanted to beat him even with his rampant cheating. I won the third set 10 point tiebreaker with brute force, hitting the ball straight in the center of the court nowhere near the lines.


Can I file a complaint with USTA or what?

The OP dealt with it admirably, he carried on and beat the cheater! Every match has a close call or two, but this was FLAGRANT going to hell CHEATING! I would assume you could file a complaint and they may contact the cheater and create a file on the turd--maybe he would think about it in the future and not want to risk suspension.

I've been on many teams and also played Age Group Tournaments. I've witnessed no flagrant cheating as you've described in Age Group tournaments and only heard of one player suspended for abusive behavior.

On the other hand, I've encountered the gamut of cheating and poor behavior by league players and many threads here are testimony to it. I recall heading to play-offs and receiving a pep-talk from some club hanger-on who attached himself to our team and ended his speech "jokingly" saying : "And remember, if all else fails, CHEAT."

The difference between League and Age Group play is when you're on a team you have your posse to back you up, but when you play Age Group, you are personally accountable for your conduct and represent only yourself.

SteveI
12-02-2010, 04:42 PM
i think it was Vince Lombardi that said winning isn't everything,,,it is the Only thing.............:)

BTW... he never did say that.

dlk
12-02-2010, 04:42 PM
The OP dealt with it admirably, he carried on and beat the cheater! Every match has a close call or two, but this was FLAGRANT going to hell CHEATING! I would assume you could file a complaint and they may contact the cheater and create a file on the turd--maybe he would think about it in the future and not want to risk suspension.

I've been on many teams and also played Age Group Tournaments. I've witnessed no flagrant cheating as you've described in Age Group tournaments and only heard of one player suspended for abusive behavior.

On the other hand, I've encountered the gamut of cheating and poor behavior by league players and many threads here are testimony to it. I recall heading to play-offs and receiving a pep-talk from some club hanger-on who attached himself to our team and ended his speech "jokingly" saying : "And remember, if all else fails, CHEAT."

The difference between League and Age Group play is when you're on a team you have your posse to back you up, but when you play Age Group, you are personally accountable for your conduct and represent only yourself.

Classic post.

gameboy
12-02-2010, 11:47 PM
The OP dealt with it admirably, he carried on and beat the cheater! Every match has a close call or two, but this was FLAGRANT going to hell CHEATING! I would assume you could file a complaint and they may contact the cheater and create a file on the turd--maybe he would think about it in the future and not want to risk suspension.


The fact that he is here moaning about it says he is not dealing with it well.

And remember, there is always two sides to the story. We may get a totally different story if his opponent was here posting. If you read many of the "cheating" posts, you can almost pair many of them together as both sides of the story.

Way too many people expect opponents to call the lines perfectly and think they call it perfectly themselves. Neither is very realistic.

So, either you can get upset at inevitable imperfection inherent with line calling or you can just blow it off and move on. I recommend latter.

bcart1991
12-03-2010, 07:03 AM
The fact that he is here moaning about it says he is not dealing with it well.

And remember, there is always two sides to the story. We may get a totally different story if his opponent was here posting. If you read many of the "cheating" posts, you can almost pair many of them together as both sides of the story.

Way too many people expect opponents to call the lines perfectly and think they call it perfectly themselves. Neither is very realistic.

So, either you can get upset at inevitable imperfection inherent with line calling or you can just blow it off and move on. I recommend latter.

I disagree. He dealt with it well. He kept his cool, and won the match despite a cheating opponent.

There is a huge difference between missing a call or two and blatant cheating. No one expects perfect line calls, but we do expect just line calls.

not_federer
12-03-2010, 10:31 AM
I appreciate the skepticism and desire to hear "the other side" tell his tale, I really do. We're all just anonymous strangers on the internet with zero credibility. All I have to offer though is my candid and sincere interpretation of events, so take it or leave it.

The reason I'm posting is because his behavior was so shocking it caught me completely off guard. I may have unfairly blamed the USTA for his cheating before but I still feel like these league matches significantly increases the chances of bad calls and gamesmanship. That's just a byproduct of competition with stakes though which can be found in any tournament or whatever. I can handle a few bad calls and basic distractions and gamesmanship like phantom lets, calling lets from a random ball that rolls into visual range, etc.

I just reviewed my match record and for the most part my opponents seemed honest, with a few extreme exceptions - the guy I played the other night being the worst example I've ever encountered.

I understand if your first reaction is to tell me to quit belly aching or stop moaning and groaning but the truth is he's just a phenomenally shameless and ballsy cheater. I most definitely called him out on it and we declared our mutual disdain for each other. One way or another, I'll never play him again. Once again, for whatever it's worth, there were neutral witnesses who told me afterward that they couldn't believe the crap he was pulling - changing score in the middle of a tiebreak, calling balls out when his eyes were facing the opposite direction, etc.

Yeah, I guess I am just moaning and groaning. It isn't just about a few bad calls though, i can't emphasize enough that he is simple a dirty cheater through and through and that I've never had any real conflict on the court with anyone like that before. I've played guys I don't like much and left upset before, lost to pushers I should have beaten, and had personality conflicts or petty disputes, but nothing like that.

tl;dr cheaters suck

bcart1991
12-03-2010, 11:32 AM
Sounds like our league finals match a couple weeks ago. It was so bad, the offenders' team mates apologized to our captain after the match for their players' cheating tactics. Of course, they weren't going to concede the victory...

heninfan99
02-25-2011, 11:07 AM
Yes. Yes it is.

billsgwn
02-25-2011, 12:20 PM
Squeal like a little pig. I'm too much of a goody-two-shoes. No way am I going down with that ship. First, I'd try try to talk captain and involved players out of it. If they all were insistent, I'd stand there at the check-in desk to make sure no one pulled it off. Then walk off and never play for that captain...or with any of the players that knew about it and wouldn't stand up with me.

If that sounds heavy-handed and holier-than-thou...well, that's the way I see it. Even if I knew we wouldn't get caught (or even if we did and there weren't going to be any severe recriminations), the "win" would forever be tainted. How would you (incl the team) know if you could have done it straight up?


I am with you here. I cant believe all the cheating I am reading about on here. I took over a decade off from tennis to play beach volleyball and the cheating that went on in that sport is very minimal. Some people felt they were perfect so refused to call their hands on sets and others may not call themsleves if they ever so lightly brush the net but most were honest. As far as sandbagging, there were more losers who did that than there should have been but I always made sure I was playing the highest level so I could never be considered a sandbagger, eventhough I was an Open player in my state, if I was traveling to CALI and maybe should have been playing in the A tourney since CALI has the best beach volleyball players, I would still play the Open one so make sure if I did win it, I had to play my *** off to win it and not get by playing just ok but beating lesser competitoin.

billsgwn
02-25-2011, 12:26 PM
I'd be interested in seeing a list of those that aren't / haven't cheated. That shouldn't take long to compile.[/QUOTE]



Would it be as short as the list of guys who dont cheat at the Tour de France?

mambochino
02-25-2011, 03:27 PM
I haven't played USTA for 8 years now, but questionable line calls and gamesmanship were pretty rampant on the 4.5 team I played on, far worse than other tourneys and leagues I've played in before or since. ....

i am surprise to hear that it happens at that level.

line calls - USTA outs; sandbaggers - play at a lower level; lack of ethics and unsportsmanlike conducts including but not limit to slicing and chopping during warm ups are not unheard of in some areas. I guess it all depends on where you live and how competitive the environment is.

On the other hand I have a lot more fun playing in the WTT leagues in So Cal. Players are very friendly and with sportsmanship. :)

eliza
02-25-2011, 03:48 PM
I am not going to add more whining, I am just happy to see others had my experience.......

ttbrowne
03-04-2011, 06:31 AM
One reason I don't take League play seriously anymore..or play as much as I used to. It's a disappointment to play well and lose cause your hooked.

tennis tom
03-04-2011, 07:22 AM
One reason I don't take League play seriously anymore..or play as much as I used to. It's a disappointment to play well and lose cause your hooked.

x2. The cheating is evidence of the decline of the culture's ethics and values. The cheaters are few, but his posse mates turn a blind-eye, condoning the cheating becoming willing accomplices.

I save competition for the Senior Age Group tournaments. All other play for me is just practice and I've learned not to make issue out of the general lack of knowledge of the rules. If I stop play to explain a rule, then I'm the **** for being "rigid" or having "antics".

edit: The four letter word not allowed above was the name of hitler's party. Interesting that it's not allowed and in this context I was't using it to slander anyone. So much for freedom of speech or is it history revisionism?

In playing Age Group tournaments for a many years, cheating or any other "weirdness" occurred in maybe two out of 100 matches and were minimal. In Age Group tournaments, cheaters are weeded out quickly and not tolerated for long.

g4driver
03-04-2011, 07:54 AM
So much for freedom of speech or is it history revisionism?

Tennis Tom, what you are referring to is "censorship".

Freedom of speech only applies to the government, not to private entities. It's sad that so few people claim "Freedom of Speech" restriction and don't understand it's basis or application.

TW TT isn't a government agency, therefore they haven't infringed upon your right to "Freedom of Speech". They have censored your post.

While you are researching your book, take time to read the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. It's a short read. ;)

tennis tom
03-04-2011, 08:05 AM
Tennis Tom, what you are referring to is "censorship".

Freedom of speech only applies to the government, not to private entities. It's sad that so few people claim "Freedom of Speech" restriction and don't understand it's basis or application.

TW TT isn't a government agency, therefore they haven't infringed upon your right to "Freedom of Speech". They have censored your post.

While you are researching your book, take time to read the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. It's a short read. ;)

Thanks for the education G4, I certainly can use an editor, how much do your charge?

You sure have a stick-up-your-*** for me ever since that Zen moment that the dumpster so disturbed your equilibrium and aim. Well thanks for your educating me and I can't argue with free. As far as my background in the Constitution, if you only knew. Sadly, and to my regret, I had a hand in proving it's become irrelevant in the modern era.



I'm glad to know you've got my back, I can sleep better at night. You do a great job of extolling form over substance, are you a lawyer?

Cheers mate

SlapChop
03-04-2011, 08:18 AM
One thing that has bothered me is people on the other side of the net thinking their ball is in when they have no idea whether or not that is true. I never thought about it until at a tournament I was between matches and watching other people play and no less than 5 times in separate matches people are asking the other player if they are sure about the call some asking in a ruder tone than others, on all of these points I saw the ball was clearly out by more than a few inches but clearly out none the less. Ever since then I quit even challenging the opponents calls.

However I have never had some one blatantly cheat and call balls out that I know where in. Everyone that I have played in USTA tournaments has called a fair game and have been nice people that where there for the competition not just to win. I showed up late for a match because of traffic and my opponent was awarded 3 matches however he differed because he didn't like that call. I lost anyway but thought it a nice gesture that he didn't want to win on a technicality.

I am playing through a different organization now though since I do not want to pay memebership fees to the usta in addition to league and tournament fees.

ian2
03-04-2011, 08:42 AM
Or come on guys... there is cheating but it's NOT rampant. In my experience (admittedly limited, about 100 USTA matches) intentional cheating is fairly rare, and is a purview of a few dedicated souls. Bad line calls on the other hand happen quite a bit but most of these are not intentional. Either way, no reason to stop playing USTA tennis.

tennis tom
03-04-2011, 08:46 AM
Either way, no reason to stop playing USTA tennis.

Just one of many.

g4driver
03-04-2011, 08:58 AM
Thanks for the education G4, I certainly can use an editor, how much do your charge?

You sure have a stick-up-your-*** for me ever since that Zen moment that the dumpster so disturbed your equilibrium and aim. Well thanks for your educating me and I can't argue with free. As far as my background in the Constitution, if you only knew. Sadly, and to my regret, I had a hand in proving it's become irrelevant in the modern era.

I'm glad to know you've got my back, I can sleep better at night. You do a great job of extolling form over substance, are you a lawyer?

Cheers mate

Hopefully you didn't charge for that background in the Constitution. It's seems you hated being corrected, and simply will never admit your wrong on any account.

Are you arguing that I'm wrong on the "Freedom of Speech" versus "Censorship" differences? If so, please enlighten me and the world with your knowledge of the US Constitution.

Several posters gave you the direct reference to the dumpster issue and you can let it go that your were wrong on that account, and that I was right in calling a let. Anytime sometime proves you wrong, you are simply to arrogant to admit it. Your are a curmudgeon. Plain and simple.

ian2
03-04-2011, 09:31 AM
Just one of many.

USTA is far from perfect. But in my opinion it's quite good in terms of providing an avenue for organized, structured competition. Now, when it comes to the NTRP ratings algorithm and its application, it's a whole other story...

In playing Age Group tournaments for a many years, cheating or any other "weirdness" occurred in maybe two out of 100 matches and were minimal. In Age Group tournaments, cheaters are weeded out quickly and not tolerated for long.

Quantitatively speaking, I had the same experience: I've run into cheaters twice in 100 matches. And in one of these cases I'd still give the guy the benefit of the doubt: while his line calls were atrocious, they happened at the very end of 3rd set, in the wee hours of the morning, after 3.5 hours of playing in a very close match. I'm sure the guy was tired mentally and physically... I certainly was. The other time, it had nothing to do with line calls, those were pristine; it was the case of extreme gamesmanship, quite a story but I'm not yet ready to tell it, even after 6 months.. it still hurts that I fell for it :cry:

So that's maybe two times out of 100 in USTA league/tournaments (NTRP, not Age). I wouldn't call this rampant.

BTW Tom, your Age Group tournaments - are they not USTA?

tennis tom
03-04-2011, 05:00 PM
G4, Au contrair mon frere, it's seems to me you are the one who must correct me like a shadow, and be right all the time. Why would anyone want to knowingly be wrong? But if I am, I certainly would like to be corrected especially for free and thank you beaucoup. I attempt to stay as far away from you as possible, I would certainly never want to be on the same tennis court with you unless I had to in a tournament. I am flattered that you choose me above all others here to stalk. This is Al Gore's Internet and I give a hoot what you think of me, I'm just practicing my typing, you seem a tad anal. Please correct me at every opportunity, I don't mind stealing the fire. You seem to have a lot of time on your hands to waste on the likes of me, do you work for the gov?

tennis tom
03-04-2011, 05:11 PM
Ian2, it may be a regional thing I'm on the left coast and it may have to do with the abundance of medical marijuana and fine wines.

Yah, the USTA gets everyone's money. I think it would just as soon let the age groups die off since it would save them a lot of money in administration for one thing. And all those silly old tennis customs like playing best 2 out of 3 sets rather than the tie-breaker du jour.

I'm glad your experience has been better than mine, but it may be a regional thing as the last election showed how out of touch the left coast is with the rest of the USA.

g4driver
03-06-2011, 05:55 AM
Tennistom,

Stalking? I read multiple threads on this forum, including ones about USTA Adult play, stringing, strings, and others. I don't work for the government. I'm not a lawyer, but did turn down the chance to go to law school. I have a job that has a flexible schedule. I work hard, and when I'm off, I play a lot of tennis. I play tennis to stay fit, and to improve my game. The best part about tennis where I play, is meeting and hitting against some fine people and great players from all walks of life.

I played five matches yesterday. 92 games plus two 10 pt tie-breaks. We lost in the semi-finals of 8.0 Mixed and 7.0 Men's. Better people won those matches, but we had a great time. I'm heading back to the tournament to watch the finals today.

The other day I just happened to open a thread where you had made a post on that day, in which the subject "Freedom of Speech" was addressed. You just happened to be in the line of fire. I was having a bad day, and you were an easy target. I should have let it go. I didn't and I took the low road. It wasn't a nice thing to do, so here is my apology to you.

Tennistom, I have no malice against you. I am sincerely sorry for my posts, and that I picked at you. My posts towards you were meant to prove a point that facts and rules are more meaningful than an opinion and in the process, I let that get mean-spirited. It was completely my fault, and not yours.

I do appreciate the folks on this board who do offer clarification on rules with references, and you got under my skin with your comments about the dumpster a while back. I'm glad someone gave the USTA rule which clarified the call. I've learned quite a bit from this forum, and appreciate the time people take to share their knowledge.

If I ever met you in person, I would stick out my right hand to you, and say "Tom, I'm sorry for my actions. I hope you will forgive me. "

Since I am not there in person to do that right now, I will ask that you forgive me for my callous posts. I am sorry for my posts towards you.

v/r

g4driver

eliza
03-06-2011, 06:13 AM
g4driver, you just learnt that here things can become heated. Most of the people are fine, some use this forum to de-stress, so it might be that person threw hits at you just b/c.......
I chose not to get in the fire about FoS, many do not even know what does it mean.

anontennis
03-06-2011, 08:16 AM
A certain subset of people are inclined to cheat. That subset of people may in turn be more likely to join competitions.

Is anyone arguing that USTA cheating is more rampant than cheating in other sports' competitions, or just more than casual tennis? If you play any competitive sport, you are likely to run into cheaters. Find ways to diffuse their cheating tactics, or beat them regardless.... Negative reinforcement (take away the win) and punishment (tactfully but expressly point out that they lost despite cheating) might help shape their behavior in the future.

jester911
03-06-2011, 08:36 AM
In my experience at 4.0 and 4.5 in my area rampant cheating was not too bad when it comes to line calls but sandbagging is almost required to be competitive. For that reason I quit USTA over 5 years ago.

bruintennis
03-06-2011, 08:57 PM
My team was robbed (cheating) of a 9.0 mixed league match last weekend. Both teams were pretty even and all three matches went to a 10-point match tie-break. Their team won two. This week I heard from a several different people that a lot of our balls were called out on the baseline that were in. It sucks to lose and sucks even worse when your opponents make bad line calls (mostly on the baseline).

eliza
03-07-2011, 05:49 AM
My team was robbed (cheating) of a 9.0 mixed league match last weekend. Both teams were pretty even and all three matches went to a 10-point match tie-break. Their team won two. This week I heard from a several different people that a lot of our balls were called out on the baseline that were in. It sucks to lose and sucks even worse when your opponents make bad line calls (mostly on the baseline).

If it makes it easier....Last year I got the single, and I lost at tie-break (14-12 I think). My captain was by the side, and I already saw her bobbing her head, but was trying to focus. At the end she blurts, "of course she won, she was calling your serves and ground strokes out when they were in "...
I kind of knew, but figure out that "I will beat her anyhow", shut......
I have to say that this lady disappeared, never saw her again in any matches.......

eliza
03-07-2011, 05:51 AM
In my experience at 4.0 and 4.5 in my area rampant cheating was not too bad when it comes to line calls but sandbagging is almost required to be competitive. For that reason I quit USTA over 5 years ago.

the sandbagging, truly rampart here (a Pro, even if old, plays on a 3.5 league) gets me, really gets me.....

goober
03-07-2011, 06:48 AM
In my experience at 4.0 and 4.5 in my area rampant cheating was not too bad when it comes to line calls but sandbagging is almost required to be competitive. For that reason I quit USTA over 5 years ago.

the sandbagging, truly rampart here (a Pro, even if old, plays on a 3.5 league) gets me, really gets me.....

I guess it all depends on why you play in leagues. Personally I don't give a hoot about going to playoffs/sectionals. I started a team to be with a group of guys I enjoy playing with and to get good competition- and that is what I am getting in USTA leagues. Yeah the top teams have ringers/sandbaggers, but I could care less. If they want to find some glory in a recreational tennis league, doesn't bother me.

andfor
03-07-2011, 08:35 AM
I guess it all depends on why you play in leagues. Personally I don't give a hoot about going to playoffs/sectionals. I started a team to be with a group of guys I enjoy playing with and to get good competition- and that is what I am getting in USTA leagues. Yeah the top teams have ringers/sandbaggers, but I could care less. If they want to find some glory in a recreational tennis league, doesn't bother me.

For some they enjoy the trips to the different championships, kind of like some enjoy going on hunting trips or cruises, etc. For others it's about putting together a team of Sandbaggers. If the two are combined they become dangerous!

eliza
03-07-2011, 10:04 AM
I guess it all depends on why you play in leagues. Personally I don't give a hoot about going to playoffs/sectionals. I started a team to be with a group of guys I enjoy playing with and to get good competition- and that is what I am getting in USTA leagues. Yeah the top teams have ringers/sandbaggers, but I could care less. If they want to find some glory in a recreational tennis league, doesn't bother me.

Does not bother you that the competition is compromised by corruption?
Sure, let them win, even by cheating. We will plaud them by remaining 3.0 for life....Who cares? Well, ME.

andfor
03-07-2011, 10:22 AM
Does not bother you that the competition is compromised by corruption?
Sure, let them win, even by cheating. We will plaud them by remaining 3.0 for life....Who cares? Well, ME.

Although this was directed at Gooeber, my stance is, if there is a blantent cheater, file an appeal and get him or her DQ'd. I am proud to say I have directly been involved in having at least 4 cheaters DQ'd or bumped up. Boarderline cases and those protected by the computer or rules, just forget about it. An appeal will waste your time. If you can prove your case and support it by facts you have a shot. Another thing that helps on an appeal is, when you email your appeal and all the proof, be sure you have a number of advocates that support your postion and CC them on the email to the Section Appeal Commitee. I've found that the appeal commitee reacts faster when it appears the whole world knows. If they can sweep it under the rug, they will.

gameboy
03-07-2011, 10:30 AM
Eliza, you are taking this way too seriously.

This is not about life and death. It is just a hobby. You need to look at it from a proper perspective.

Not everything in life is fair (nor does it have to be). Expecting fairness in every aspect of life is just going to leave you disappointed and bitter.

Unless you are playing at the top of the sport, this is all a moot point as USTA levels are just artificial constructs. If they shift the level up just a little bit so that you are at the bottom end of the scale, you are going to lose most of your matches. If they shift it down so that you are at the top of the scale, you are going win most of your matches. That is even with any "rampant" cheating going on.

So, the fact that whether or not you win or lose, is largely outside your control. Sure, you can practice hard and improve so you can move up to the top of the scale, but you can also get bumped up to the next level which means you are right back to losing most of your matches.

Sandbagging has positives to go along with its negatives. It is a big negative if you are dead set on going to sectionals or nationals (personally, I don't think that is all that healthy to obessess about playoffs), but it is a big positive if you are trying to get better as you get to play against people who may be a level better than you. Since people who are better than you don't like practicing with people who are worse, playing better people (in a match environment, no less) is an opportunity you should welcome, not dread or complain about.

goober
03-07-2011, 10:34 AM
Does not bother you that the competition is compromised by corruption?
Sure, let them win, even by cheating. We will plaud them by remaining 3.0 for life....Who cares? Well, ME.

No it doesn't bother me, because good competition is competition to me. I would much rather play some old teaching pro and lose than some hacker 3.5 that I can easily beat. Why does it bother you this old guy is in your league? You are afraid of getting beat down by him? If you lose to him are you going cry about how unfair it is that he is out of level? It is a recreational tennis match for heaven's sake. NTRP is an arbitrary handicapping system that is imperfect. Yah some people try to "work" the system. I don't let it bother my enjoyment of tennis.

I compare your attitude to people on my team. One of my singles players played a guy that was definitely out of level. He was a pretty high ranked junior and was just demolishing everybody. After their match I asked him how it went. He was estatic and told me he played some of his best tennis. He goes on about how fun it was to play such a good player. He was very happy. Oh yeah he lost 6-3, 6-3.

kelawai
03-07-2011, 10:43 AM
-I guess it all depends on why you play in leagues. Personally I don't give a hoot about going to playoffs/sectionals. I started a team to be with a group of guys I enjoy playing with and to get good competition- and that is what I am getting in USTA leagues. Yeah the top teams have ringers/sandbaggers, but I could care less. If they want to find some glory in a recreational tennis league, doesn't bother me.

I respect your expectation. But what and see if you have to pay $29-37 to play a match. Then you will know how unfair it was.

J_R_B
03-07-2011, 10:47 AM
No it doesn't bother me, because good competition is competition to me. I would much rather play some old teaching pro and lose than some hacker 3.5 that I can easily beat. Why does it bother you this old guy is in your league? You are afraid of getting beat down by him? If you lose to him are you going cry about how unfair it is that he is out of level? It is a recreational tennis match for heaven's sake. NTRP is an arbitrary handicapping system that is imperfect. Yah some people try to "work" the system. I don't let it bother my enjoyment of tennis.

I compare your attitude to people on my team. One of my singles players played a guy that was definitely out of level. He was a pretty high ranked junior and was just demolishing everybody. After their match I asked him how it went. He was estatic and told me he played some of his best tennis. He goes on about how fun it was to play such a good player. He was very happy. Oh yeah he lost 6-3, 6-3.

I agree. I welcome the competition, and I don't really care about playoffs that much. I actually beat a teaching pro last year in a long 3 set match. It was probably my best match of the year. This year the perennial sectionals team in our league just added one of the top HS seniors in the county. LOL. Bring it on, I've already penciled myself in for #1 singles that day...

goober
03-07-2011, 10:51 AM
-

I respect your expectation. But what and see if you have to pay $29-37 to play a match. Then you will know how unfair it was.

My average comes out to $4/match. But if it were higher it would not bother me. I have played tournaments at $35-50 and lost in the first round. The worst teams in our league are all the country clubs whose members are paying thousands of dollars a years to play for them and yet they lose all the time. If it bothers you to pay that much money and lose, then you can't afford to play where you are playing.

kelawai
03-07-2011, 11:42 AM
I thought we were discussing about Cheater.
I have played many tournaments and lost a few in 1st round too. I lost to a better player's indeed and average tournaments here is $70. All I am saying cheating is unfair to the sport and recreational level as well.

Listen, is not about how much money I can waste on the court. And I don't have to explain to you how much I spend yearly on League's, Tournaments, indoor court rental and equipments. Says, if you give your loves one everything and behind you he or she sleeping around with another partner how would you feel? I would say that's Cheating. Maybe you have all the money many people did not have and you can live with it. To me that's UCKSS

I am not a good player though. Play the sport for some excitement and competition. Played and lost to a few cheaters before. At the end of the day it's just a sport. I won't become any poorer or richer with this win or lose.

ian2
03-07-2011, 11:55 AM
Does not bother you that the competition is compromised by corruption?
Sure, let them win, even by cheating. We will plaud them by remaining 3.0 for life....Who cares? Well, ME.

Eliza, how many times did you PERSONALLY run into a sandbagger in USTA leagues/tourneys? Just curious because I never had, and I play quite a bit...

SlapChop
03-07-2011, 12:31 PM
Eliza, how many times did you PERSONALLY run into a sandbagger in USTA leagues/tourneys? Just curious because I never had, and I play quite a bit...

Duh don't you know the USTA code? You call someone a sandbagger anytime they beat you. They couldn't possibly have more skill or played a better game than you so they are obviously playing down.

eliza
03-07-2011, 01:04 PM
Duh don't you know the USTA code? You call someone a sandbagger anytime they beat you. They couldn't possibly have more skill or played a better game than you so they are obviously playing down.

Why am I getting these replies? Why do you treat me like I am an idiot in search of excuses when I fail?
No, I do not call a sandbagger somebody who wins over me. I never played against one, but my court one have all the time. Last time? Last Sat. How do you know? B/c they play house leagues one/two levels beyond.......or b/c one of our teammates comes from a club where she knows them doing the same.....OOOOOOPPPPPPSS.

goober
03-07-2011, 01:22 PM
Why am I getting these replies? Why do you treat me like I am an idiot in search of excuses when I fail?
No, I do not call a sandbagger somebody who wins over me. I never played against one, but my court one have all the time. Last time? Last Sat. How do you know? B/c they play house leagues one/two levels beyond.......or b/c one of our teammates comes from a club where she knows them doing the same.....OOOOOOPPPPPPSS.

Don't get your panties in bunch. Slapchop was engaging in something called sarcasm. He was attempting to be funny.

J_R_B
03-07-2011, 01:36 PM
Why am I getting these replies? Why do you treat me like I am an idiot in search of excuses when I fail?
No, I do not call a sandbagger somebody who wins over me. I never played against one, but my court one have all the time. Last time? Last Sat. How do you know? B/c they play house leagues one/two levels beyond.......or b/c one of our teammates comes from a club where she knows them doing the same.....OOOOOOPPPPPPSS.

The problem with the term "sandbagger" in general that leads to a lot of arguing and sarcasm, which is clear in your response as well, is that the identification of "sandbagger" usually boils down "because someone said so". Without a more objective definition, there will be constant bickering about the term. This is at the heart of why I just don't let it bother me, and in fact, seek out the toughest opponents on the other roster to play to get the work against good competition.

To me, I won't label someone a "sandbagger", especially in the context of cheating, unless they have specifically broken the rules of the self-rating process somehow. If the player is a recent college grad who played NCAA varsity tennis, they are a minimum 4.5. That's what the rules say. If that person fudges the questionnaire and self-rates at 3.5, that is breaking the rules. If a person re-registers under their middle name to self-rate at a lower level, that is breaking the rules. Throwing matches or entering incorrect scores to maintain a computer rating is breaking the rules. These are the type of infractions that should be enforced. Simply being better than everyone else at a level, even by a wide margin, isn't breaking any rules. People who are that much better should voluntarily play up, but if they wish to dominate people at a lower level due to a technicality in the computer rating system in their pursuit of "the holy paperweight", well, so be it, it doesn't bother me.

dlk
03-07-2011, 01:47 PM
The problem with the term "sandbagger" in general that leads to a lot of arguing and sarcasm, which is clear in your response as well, is that the identification of "sandbagger" usually boils down "because someone said so". Without a more objective definition, there will be constant bickering about the term. This is at the heart of why I just don't let it bother me, and in fact, seek out the toughest opponents on the other roster to play to get the work against good competition.

To me, I won't label someone a "sandbagger", especially in the context of cheating, unless they have specifically broken the rules of the self-rating process somehow. If the player is a recent college grad who played NCAA varsity tennis, they are a minimum 4.5. That's what the rules say. If that person fudges the questionnaire and self-rates at 3.5, that is breaking the rules. If a person re-registers under their middle name to self-rate at a lower level, that is breaking the rules. Throwing matches or entering incorrect scores to maintain a computer rating is breaking the rules. These are the type of infractions that should be enforced. Simply being better than everyone else at a level, even by a wide margin, isn't breaking any rules. People who are that much better should voluntarily play up, but if they wish to dominate people at a lower level due to a technicality in the computer rating system in their pursuit of "the holy paperweight", well, so be it, it doesn't bother me.

I've never considered anyone sandbagging in tennis. But have played a few folks who were definantly ready to be bumped:):)

ian2
03-07-2011, 02:06 PM
The problem with the term "sandbagger" in general that leads to a lot of arguing and sarcasm, which is clear in your response as well, is that the identification of "sandbagger" usually boils down "because someone said so". Without a more objective definition, there will be constant bickering about the term. This is at the heart of why I just don't let it bother me, and in fact, seek out the toughest opponents on the other roster to play to get the work against good competition.

To me, I won't label someone a "sandbagger", especially in the context of cheating, unless they have specifically broken the rules of the self-rating process somehow. If the player is a recent college grad who played NCAA varsity tennis, they are a minimum 4.5. That's what the rules say. If that person fudges the questionnaire and self-rates at 3.5, that is breaking the rules. If a person re-registers under their middle name to self-rate at a lower level, that is breaking the rules. Throwing matches or entering incorrect scores to maintain a computer rating is breaking the rules. These are the type of infractions that should be enforced. Simply being better than everyone else at a level, even by a wide margin, isn't breaking any rules. People who are that much better should voluntarily play up, but if they wish to dominate people at a lower level due to a technicality in the computer rating system in their pursuit of "the holy paperweight", well, so be it, it doesn't bother me.

J_R_B, I agree 100% with all you are saying except that last part. I would certainly consider such a player sandbagger even though he/she did not break any rules. Yes it's a matter of definition. For me, it goes like this: I know what an "above-average" player is for a given level, in my geographical area - learned it by playing/observing a lot of matches. With that in mind, a sandbagger is someone who can beat the "above-average" player 6:1 6:1 or better, at will, 9 times out of 10, and intentionally continues to play at that level exploiting the NTRP rating technicality. Again I never seen one live so this is theoretical. I did notice one case of sandbagging in local tourney results once: a 3.5 self-rated guy played only 4.0 leagues all year, with better than .500 results; towards the end of the year he entered into the biggest tourney of they year in 3.5 singles and won without dropping more than a handful of games in the entire tournament. That, to me, is sandbagging. And no, I didn't lose to this guy nor have I ever met him; no sour grapes here.

J_R_B
03-07-2011, 02:16 PM
J_R_B, I agree 100% with all you are saying except that last part. I would certainly consider such a player sandbagger even though he/she did not break any rules. Yes it's a matter of definition. For me, it goes like this: I know what an "above-average" player is for a given level, in my geographical area - learned it by playing/observing a lot of matches. With that in mind, a sandbagger is someone who can beat the "above-average" player 6:1 6:1 or better, at will, 9 times out of 10, and intentionally continues to play at that level exploiting the NTRP rating technicality. Again I never seen one live so this is theoretical. I did notice one case of sandbagging in local tourney results once: a 3.5 self-rated guy played only 4.0 leagues all year, with better than .500 results; towards the end of the year he entered into the biggest tourney of they year in 3.5 singles and won without dropping more than a handful of games in the entire tournament. That, to me, is sandbagging. And no, I didn't lose to this guy nor have I ever met him; no sour grapes here.

The problem is that you are right back to the "well, this player is just too good for this level" definition that lacks anything measurable or objective. The closest to measurable you are coming is "able to beat an above-average player 6-1 6-1 or better in 9 out of 10 fictitional matches" when in reality there is no way to define "above average" nor is there a way to determine actual outcomes of the 10 fictitional matches to see if he could win 9 of them 6-1 6-1 or better. To me, someone has to actually break the rules to be a cheater. That's the only way to avoid conflicts that come from these subjective rules.

ian2
03-07-2011, 03:08 PM
The problem is that you are right back to the "well, this player is just too good for this level" definition that lacks anything measurable or objective. The closest to measurable you are coming is "able to beat an above-average player 6-1 6-1 or better in 9 out of 10 fictitional matches" when in reality there is no way to define "above average" nor is there a way to determine actual outcomes of the 10 fictitional matches to see if he could win 9 of them 6-1 6-1 or better. To me, someone has to actually break the rules to be a cheater. That's the only way to avoid conflicts that come from these subjective rules.

OK agreed. I'm not asking anyone to abide by my definition; it's purely for internal use :-) And all hypothetical anyway: I'm not looking for sandbaggers, and (consequently?) never met one...

Edited: I'm curious - how do you see that example I described? The guy did not break any rules, and I would not call him a cheater; but a sandbagger - yes, by my imperfect definition.

And BTW: there is an easy, 90+ % reliable way to define "above average", isn't there? Note that I didn't say 100% reliable; but you can get a very good idea by simply looking at someone's record on tennislink - provided there is enough of a record to look at.

eliza
03-07-2011, 03:41 PM
That someone knows that their actual rating is 3.5 and 4.0, and that someone knows the captain of the opponent team has proactively invited them on in order to get the necessary wins in order to go to districts........
I wish I could spend time sending sub poenas and doing depositions, then I bet someone would start behaving differently......
I take this too seriously. Maybe. Or maybe this is a reflection of the person's character. And I am tired of being "a better person"and turning my eyes.....

J_R_B
03-07-2011, 04:19 PM
OK agreed. I'm not asking anyone to abide by my definition; it's purely for internal use :-) And all hypothetical anyway: I'm not looking for sandbaggers, and (consequently?) never met one...

Edited: I'm curious - how do you see that example I described? The guy did not break any rules, and I would not call him a cheater; but a sandbagger - yes, by my imperfect definition.

And BTW: there is an easy, 90+ % reliable way to define "above average", isn't there? Note that I didn't say 100% reliable; but you can get a very good idea by simply looking at someone's record on tennislink - provided there is enough of a record to look at.

That wouldn't bother me. The most I would do is laugh at him if he is entering NRTP tournaments that he knows he will win without much competition because he is misrated just to stroke his own ego.

struggle
03-07-2011, 08:34 PM
wtf do you people expect? 7-6, 7-6, (11-9) everytime?

system ain't perfect, nor are the players.

go play.

gameboy
03-08-2011, 12:15 AM
I take this too seriously. Maybe. Or maybe this is a reflection of the person's character. And I am tired of being "a better person"and turning my eyes.....

No. You just take this too seriously.

eliza
03-08-2011, 04:53 AM
No. You just take this too seriously.

Excuse me, do you know me in person? NO. Period. Say that to your buddies.

gameboy
03-08-2011, 07:27 AM
Your sentence above it says it all. Caring too much about a totally artificial construct that says you are slightly better than these people but slightly worse than these other people, is not being "a better person". It just means that you care too much about something that is quite unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

eliza
03-08-2011, 10:17 AM
Gameboy: if you do not mind, I set what is important to me. I SET what are my priorities, my added-value, etc.
You have no idea about my life, career, etc. so it is YOU who are assuming to be better.........

SlapChop
03-08-2011, 02:20 PM
Why am I getting these replies? Why do you treat me like I am an idiot in search of excuses when I fail?
No, I do not call a sandbagger somebody who wins over me. I never played against one, but my court one have all the time. Last time? Last Sat. How do you know? B/c they play house leagues one/two levels beyond.......or b/c one of our teammates comes from a club where she knows them doing the same.....OOOOOOPPPPPPSS.

Don't get your panties in bunch. Slapchop was engaging in something called sarcasm. He was attempting to be funny.

:)

Tennis is really just supposed to be fun. I don't get paid a dime to play in fact I pay a good amount of money to play. It the competition that keeps driving me to get better and play harder. I play to win but if I lose I don't really care. I am not going to lose sleep on it. It is not as if a loss is going to some how change my life or a win for that matter.

ttbrowne
03-14-2011, 04:07 PM
x2. The cheating is evidence of the decline of the culture's ethics and values. The cheaters are few, but his posse mates turn a blind-eye, condoning the cheating becoming willing accomplices.

I save competition for the Senior Age Group tournaments. All other play for me is just practice and I've learned not to make issue out of the general lack of knowledge of the rules. If I stop play to explain a rule, then I'm the **** for being "rigid" or having "antics".

edit: The four letter word not allowed above was the name of hitler's party. Interesting that it's not allowed and in this context I was't using it to slander anyone. So much for freedom of speech or is it history revisionism?

In playing Age Group tournaments for a many years, cheating or any other "weirdness" occurred in maybe two out of 100 matches and were minimal. In Age Group tournaments, cheaters are weeded out quickly and not tolerated for long.

Tom, I hear ya. I used to play for the hope of making the USTA Nationals but now it's not important to me. I'd rather save my money and stay home than have a even worse experience at USTA Nationals.