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View Full Version : Bizarre Foot Fault Ending to District/State Championship Match


BustedString
08-16-2010, 11:38 AM
I was at our State/District (they are the same) Championship this weekend. Most of the matches were played indoors at a fantastic collegiate facility with tons of bleachers elevated above the courts.

The match in question involved one of my best friends and it was the #3 doubles court for 4.5 women Both teams were undefeated and the winner of the team match then qualifies for Sectionals in Indianapolis. The team match was tied at 2-2 with my friend's team sweeping the singles and the other team taking #1/#2 doubles.

Towards the end, there were at least 50 people watching this match with both teams watching, several spectators for my friend and another team from our area waiting to go on court. It was a great match with my friend and her partner wining the 1st set 7-6 but then the other team took the 2nd set 2-6.

We play a 10-point TB in lieu of a 3rd set at these championships. Two refs came over to officiate during the match TB. It was a see-saw affair with my friend/her partner going up a mini-break several times only to lose it. At 9-8 for my friend, her partner hit what should have been a winner but the other team got it back and benefited from a let cord. It soon became 10-9 for the other team and on their MP, the other team had an overhead that my friend flailed at and unbelievably got a racquet on, the ball ran along the top of the net and dribbled over. The other team got there but had to pop it up because of the low bounce and my friend's partner crushed an overhead.

My friend won the next point so it was back to match point for them, 11-10. The other team was serving. The first serve was a fault into the net. The second serve was in but even before it bounced, one of the officials called a foot fault. The match was over. I've never seen anything like that in USTA league tennis. It was so weird, so anti-climatic. The foot faulter was seen sobbing afterwards. One of the other players on the losing team body checked a player on the winning team in the locker room. It was very contentious.

People have disagreed about calling the first foot fault of the match at 10-9 in the TB. I guess, like Serena, if it happened the ref had to call it. If the ball is out, it is called. If the foot is out of bounds, it must be called too. Weird, weird, ending for such a big match.

r2473
08-16-2010, 11:49 AM
Was that the first foot-fault call of the match (as far as you know)?

Did you notice the foot fault (in other words, was it pretty blatant)?

Did all balls manage to remain "un-throated"?

JRstriker12
08-16-2010, 11:56 AM
It is a bit strange and a little sad considering that most USTA matches are not played under the full attention of an official. I'm sure players would be much more conscious of footfaults of an offical calls it a few times. It's much harder to have that same level of officiating when you have to make your own calls, and the other player many not respect your footfault call.

But rules are rules. I'd have to commend the official for at least having the guts to make a call when he/she saw the rules being broken. I'm sure people have had stories of playing a chronic foot-faulter or cheater and the officials haven't done jack.

I feel kind of sorry for the person who got called on match point, and it may have felt more fair and more even if there was an official watching over the whole match instead of just the tie break.

Just wondering, did you see the footfault? Was it noticeably egregious?

The body check after the mach was uncalled for though. It's not the player's fault. Why not body check the official and see how far that gets them?

BustedString
08-16-2010, 11:58 AM
It was the first foot fault call of the match. One of the two officials later told another official (friend of mine) that she had called one earlier in the match but she hadn't so she must have been thinking of another court. My friend agrees that it was the first foot fault call of the match.

I couldn't see a foot fault on that point because I was behind the server on an angled bleacher behind safety bars. She had served on the other side of the court in the 1st set and I thought she was foot faulting a tiny bit then. Once she got into the 2nd set and TB, she never had an approach volley because she was on the net so fast. My belief is that she did do the FF but man it was an awkward situation.

Except for the body check in the locker room, involving players on the same team but not that court, there was no shoving anything down anybody's throat ;)

BustedString
08-16-2010, 12:02 PM
Just wondering, did you see the footfault? Was it noticeably egregious?

I saw her foot fault, just a tiny bit, earlier in the match when she served against the side on which I sat. I couldn't see it on that side.

The two officials both confirmed that they saw a foot fault so there's super strong chance that it was a foot fault.

Come to think of it, I've never seen two officials work the same court either. There were 18 courts and 4 officials so that was odd.

tennislefty
08-16-2010, 12:03 PM
while it seems tacky from the ref for the timing of the call, i cant imagine the pain! getting to post season is whatt USTA is all about,,id be crying too.
p.s...i am crying!

JRstriker12
08-16-2010, 12:05 PM
I saw her foot fault, just a tiny bit, earlier in the match when she served against the side on which I sat. I couldn't see it on that side.

The two officials both confirmed that they saw a foot fault so there's super strong chance that it was a foot fault.

Come to think of it, I've never seen two officials work the same court either. There were 18 courts and 4 officials so that was odd.

It's a bummer, but sounds like an open and shut case of a footfault.

r2473
08-16-2010, 12:14 PM
I'm sure everyone knows what this video is (no, not Serena):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnQp9YoLl68

J_R_B
08-16-2010, 12:47 PM
There is a difference between this situation and Serena Williams. In Serena's case, there are people watching every serve of every match she plays. She should be cognizant of FFs on every shot, and if she FFs in a crucial spot late in the match, that's too bad.

If these rec players played two entire sets in a playoff match without anyone watching or calling FFs, then have linespeople start watching just in the tb, and then not have a FF call until a second serve at 10-11 in that tb, that's pretty weak, IMO.

JRstriker12
08-16-2010, 01:06 PM
There is a difference between this situation and Serena Williams. In Serena's case, there are people watching every serve of every match she plays. She should be cognizant of FFs on every shot, and if she FFs in a crucial spot late in the match, that's too bad.

If these rec players played two entire sets in a playoff match without anyone watching or calling FFs, then have linespeople start watching just in the tb, and then not have a FF call until a second serve at 10-11 in that tb, that's pretty weak, IMO.

It's tough to make the argument as you could apply that reasoning to any situation where the official might have to step in to call an infraction.

For example: what if there was a shot that landed close to the line on match point. A player may have given a benefit of a doubt, but if an official has a clear view and can CLEARLY call it out, then they are supposed to keep quiet because they didn't officiate the whole match?

I agree that having an offical step in late in the match is not ideal by any means, but the player is responsible for making sure they are playing within the rules and the officals should enforce the rules.

Cindysphinx
08-16-2010, 02:19 PM
I have one question.

I believe roving officials aren't supposed to focus on one court unduly. In other words, they are supposed to rove, not take a position on one team's baseline. That would be unfair because there aren't officials on all of the lines. True, Woodrow?

If that is correct, then I don't think the FF call is fair. Even if there are six officials and this is the last match, I would think they should treat it like every other match -- they should rove. Or more precisely, one should be available to supervise the match and the rest should go drink some water. There should have been one official supervising that court, not two (or more).

Unless the FF was huge and visible from the official's position at the net post, then I don't think it should have been called. Warn, yes. And then call it.

I'm probably wrong, I know. I just can't feel good about this outcome.

Cindy -- who can't imagine such poor sportsmanship that would result in any sort of physical altercation in the locker room, especially among so-called "ladies"

Angle Queen
08-16-2010, 02:53 PM
I was at our State/District (they are the same) Championship this weekend. Most of the matches were played indoors at a fantastic collegiate facility with tons of bleachers elevated above the courts.Congratulations on making it to States/Districts...and having such a wonderful facility to play in.

We had to play outdoors in 100F+ heat. Bah!

We play a 10-point TB in lieu of a 3rd set at these championships. Two refs came over to officiate during the match TB.Same here. 10-pt TB...AND officials come over to watch it. Not unusual and much appreciated, IMHO.

The second serve was in but even before it bounced, one of the officials called a foot fault. The match was over. I've never seen anything like that in USTA league tennis. It was so weird, so anti-climatic.Can't say I've seen it at MP...but at some crucial times in a match. What was even weirder...was that, sometimes, they'd just "call it" and move it. Literally. And not even watch the next serve. Other times they'd hang around until, inevitably, the server would lose it...and their service game.

Anti-climatic indeed.

The foot faulter was seen sobbing afterwards.THAT would be me if it had happened to me. Totally understandable.

One of the other players on the losing team body checked a player on the winning team in the locker room.Totally inappropriate and uncalled for.

Wow. What a crazy match...and a crazy way to make it to Sectionals. But, again, congratulations. That's a huge accomplishment, no matter how it happens.

Good story, BTW. I enjoyed your description a lot. :)

Spokewench
08-16-2010, 03:02 PM
I played at Sectionals this year and one of my matches happened to get started later and we were the last people on the court. The official came over and watched the last part of the second set and the tiebreak. He was nice, but he basically left us to call balls and left us to make any decisions that we had to make. In other words, he did not butt in as we were have an amicable game

woodrow1029
08-16-2010, 03:11 PM
Come to think of it, I've never seen two officials work the same court either. There were 18 courts and 4 officials so that was odd.

That should NEVER happen.

sureshs
08-16-2010, 03:15 PM
Cindy -- who can't imagine such poor sportsmanship that would result in any sort of physical altercation in the locker room, especially among so-called "ladies"

I wish they had gone at each other and torn each other's clothes off

Cindysphinx
08-16-2010, 04:49 PM
while it seems tacky from the ref for the timing of the call, i cant imagine the pain! getting to post season is whatt USTA is all about,,id be crying too.
p.s...i am crying!

Aw, come on. You guys had a great season. You won the county, you won Districts. You're not going to Nationals. All of the teams were strong; it's always a crap shoot. What does it matter, really?

We're the same age. We have a very finite amount of time left on this planet, and if we are lucky we can spend a fair amount of that time playing the sport we love. We'll win some, we'll lose some. If you did your best and tried your hardest, then that's plenty good enough.

: offers tennislefty a Costco sized box of tissue :

Feel better? Good. Let's play some seniors in January, shall we? :)

Fedace
08-16-2010, 04:55 PM
I was at our State/District (they are the same) Championship this weekend. Most of the matches were played indoors at a fantastic collegiate facility with tons of bleachers elevated above the courts.

The match in question involved one of my best friends and it was the #3 doubles court for 4.5 women Both teams were undefeated and the winner of the team match then qualifies for Sectionals in Indianapolis. The team match was tied at 2-2 with my friend's team sweeping the singles and the other team taking #1/#2 doubles.

Towards the end, there were at least 50 people watching this match with both teams watching, several spectators for my friend and another team from our area waiting to go on court. It was a great match with my friend and her partner wining the 1st set 7-6 but then the other team took the 2nd set 2-6.

We play a 10-point TB in lieu of a 3rd set at these championships. Two refs came over to officiate during the match TB. It was a see-saw affair with my friend/her partner going up a mini-break several times only to lose it. At 9-8 for my friend, her partner hit what should have been a winner but the other team got it back and benefited from a let cord. It soon became 10-9 for the other team and on their MP, the other team had an overhead that my friend flailed at and unbelievably got a racquet on, the ball ran along the top of the net and dribbled over. The other team got there but had to pop it up because of the low bounce and my friend's partner crushed an overhead.

My friend won the next point so it was back to match point for them, 11-10. The other team was serving. The first serve was a fault into the net. The second serve was in but even before it bounced, one of the officials called a foot fault. The match was over. I've never seen anything like that in USTA league tennis. It was so weird, so anti-climatic. The foot faulter was seen sobbing afterwards. One of the other players on the losing team body checked a player on the winning team in the locker room. It was very contentious.

People have disagreed about calling the first foot fault of the match at 10-9 in the TB. I guess, like Serena, if it happened the ref had to call it. If the ball is out, it is called. If the foot is out of bounds, it must be called too. Weird, weird, ending for such a big match.

I will report that Ref to USTA and he will be fired soon. You don't call footfault in amateur tennis.

Z-Man
08-16-2010, 06:23 PM
That's crazy. The people running those tournaments are just state association employees and local league coordinators. They aren't professional refs and they aren't supposed to actively call matches--they are just there to run the draws and settle disputes.

That said, footfaulting is rampant and it drives me crazy. I'd like to see something done about this in recreational tennis in general, but matchpoint is not the time.

tennislefty
08-16-2010, 06:25 PM
yea..guess after the letdown is finally leaving and you have to put it that we have a finite time left to do what we love that can be kind of depressing. post season is more than just your game, its the team thing.
ive kind of run out of energy trying to get there! so many variables and the odds of advancing are slim. Got the bubble busted finally..thought id be the best 3.5 out there after a good local season, sectionals was a whole nother ball game! was harder than some 4.0 matches. our captains were the best! they always did what was right for the team, no favorites, no one was special. they really cared about the players and never put themselves first.
my only wish is i dont move up so i can go again!
Seniors??? me?

Cindysphinx
08-16-2010, 07:26 PM
Seniors? Heck yeah. We're both eligible in 2011, remember?

Yeah, it's a team thing. There can be a sense of having let down the team. But really, tennis is an individual sport.

Did you play your best? Did you prepare your best? Did you play every point all out? Then you didn't let down the team, even if you didn't win your individual matches.

Yes, it does take a tremendous amount of emotional energy to pursue nationals every year. I haven't done it, so I can only imagine what it would be like. I imagine that it would be fun, in its own way. Then again, while others have been playing Districts and Sectionals etc., I've been playing 7.5 mixed. Just as challenging, but without the emotional wringer.

Anyway, I'll see you on the court. Ladies day league fall play -- I can't wait!

Fugazi
08-16-2010, 08:55 PM
Yeah that's similar to Serena Williams at the US Open... IMO one should be given a chance on his/her first foot fault of the match. So if there's a foot fault on match point, it would be called, and the server would have another shot at it. Thus it would be the equivalent of a let. This rule could apply either to both serves or only to the second serve...

J_R_B
08-17-2010, 02:31 AM
It's tough to make the argument as you could apply that reasoning to any situation where the official might have to step in to call an infraction.

For example: what if there was a shot that landed close to the line on match point. A player may have given a benefit of a doubt, but if an official has a clear view and can CLEARLY call it out, then they are supposed to keep quiet because they didn't officiate the whole match?

I agree that having an offical step in late in the match is not ideal by any means, but the player is responsible for making sure they are playing within the rules and the officals should enforce the rules.

It's not even "late in the match", it's a 2nd serve at 10-11 in a match tiebreaker. The pros are one thing, but in rec, you hate to see a roving official decide a match like that. And, again, it's different than a line call. Lines are called on every point of every match at the rec level, so there is an expectation that line calls will be made on every point. That is definitely not the case on foot fautls.

Fuzzy
08-17-2010, 04:12 AM
I'm a captain in Michigan and we just got back from States.

I did not see one, not one, foot fault called all weekend. The refs actually didn't seem to by paying much attention to anything while on the court. I asked a simple question to one of them during a match and the ref seemed confused.

I'm convinced they don't have a clue what is going on, if they're not making calls consistently they have no right to make them at all.

BustedString
08-17-2010, 04:30 AM
That's crazy. The people running those tournaments are just state association employees and local league coordinators. They aren't professional refs and they aren't supposed to actively call matches--they are just there to run the draws and settle disputes.

That said, footfaulting is rampant and it drives me crazy. I'd like to see something done about this in recreational tennis in general, but matchpoint is not the time.
Both of the on-court officials are certified USTA Referee's and Umpires and have maintained those certification for many years.

10ACE
08-17-2010, 04:41 AM
That should NEVER happen.

Really? At the us open wild card tourneys there were chair ref- service line, and in the back court- 3-4 on the 2 main courts.

Sucks about the FF- I was called once 30-40 and lost that game. Ref was on us bad so odd.

Fedace
08-17-2010, 05:32 AM
I reported this matter to USTA headquarters and they said they will fire this Ref. Footfault in amateur tennis should not affect the course or outcome of the match.

r2473
08-17-2010, 08:49 AM
I reported this matter to USTA headquarters and they said they will fire this Ref. Footfault in amateur tennis should not affect the course or outcome of the match.

I was informed that the ref has already been executed by firing squad.

Panic492
08-17-2010, 01:19 PM
I will report that Ref to USTA and he will be fired soon. You don't call footfault in amateur tennis.

I 100% agree. There is no prize money at stake and where where these officials the rest of the match to call foot faults? This is really outrageous.

TourTenor
08-17-2010, 03:45 PM
I reported this matter to USTA headquarters and they said they will fire this Ref. Footfault in amateur tennis should not affect the course or outcome of the match.
They should look the other way when you footfault, ehhh Fedace? If they aren't calling footfaults maybe you can make it in to the service line before you hit the serve?

Rules are rules and it is a good thing that there are no gray areas for foot faulting. Otherwise, there would be nothing but arguments over what is fair.

aceX
08-17-2010, 03:52 PM
Anti-climatic indeed. But I don't like it that people play down the importance of the foot fault rule. It's not nice that it's match point, but it sounds like a clear fault.

Z-Man
08-17-2010, 04:33 PM
Both of the on-court officials are certified USTA Referee's and Umpires and have maintained those certification for many years.


I've been to state many, many times over the years. I've never seen a referee on the court calling a match. I've seen them called over a few times to resolve tricky lets or disputes about the score, but they haven't called lines or footfaults. I'm sure each state is different, but around here, calling footfaults is well outside the responsibilities of the people running state tournaments and sectionals.

They might be certified Refs, but they still had no business getting involved in a match. Being a USTA certified Ref doesn't qualify them to call footfaults from the stands at the US Open either. If they had been called over by one team complaining about footfaults or line calls it would be a completely different matter.

J_R_B
08-17-2010, 05:20 PM
Anti-climatic indeed. But I don't like it that people play down the importance of the foot fault rule. It's not nice that it's match point, but it sounds like a clear fault.

So call it the whole match. Do you honestly think this person's first foot fault just coincidentally happened on a 2nd serve at match point in a super tiebreaker to decide the whole match? There's a point where logic and decency supercede rules. At the very least, give the person a warning. I don't care if it's not in the code, it's easy enough to say after the point or at a switch "you foot faulted and if you do it again, I will call it" rather than deciding the outcome on the basis of a play that's been allowed for the whole match and that the person assuredly would not have done if there weren't an expectation that it would be let go just like the first 200 times in the match.

drakulie
08-17-2010, 06:05 PM
sucks for her team that the server doesn't know how to keep her foot behind the service line while serving. To add, the fact she is a 4.5 ntrp player.

MAX PLY
08-17-2010, 06:32 PM
Foot fault is a foot fault at any competitive level--sorry, but foot faulter deserves to lose the point (no matter what point in the match it was). If the server was truly a 4.5, then the player should be doubly embarrassed.

Steady Eddy
08-17-2010, 07:28 PM
Foot fault is a foot fault at any competitive level--sorry, but foot faulter deserves to lose the point (no matter what point in the match it was). If the server was truly a 4.5, then the player should be doubly embarrassed.When someone says "foot fault is a foot fault" or "rules are rules" they're offering a slogan in place of making a case for their point of view.

I'll admit that no one can really "prove" their own point of view, but I think common sense dictates that you don't call a foot fault on the second serve at match point, unless the foot fault was really outrageous. People want to play tennis, not for officials to take over in order to satisfy some tennis "god" in the sky.

drakulie
08-17-2010, 07:59 PM
When someone says "foot fault is a foot fault" or "rules are rules" they're offering a slogan in place of making a case for their point of view.

I'll admit that no one can really "prove" their own point of view, but I think common sense dictates that you don't call a foot fault on the second serve at match point, unless the foot fault was really outrageous. People want to play tennis, not for officials to take over in order to satisfy some tennis "god" in the sky.

scenario 1:
OK, so I am the server in this situation, and hit my first serve out. Knowing I am facing a match point and that foot faults really don't count in this situation, I blatantly cross the line and bomb another serve in for an ace.

scenario 2:
Since its match point, even if I hit my second serve out by 6 inches, it should be played as in......... since it is match point of course, and "people want to play tennis".

scenario 3:
I foot fault, and serve is out, but being that it is match point, the ball is still live. Opponents return the serve, and teams go on to play a long rally. I hit the last shot out by 6 inches and no one gets their racquet on it. However, since it is match point, and "people want to play tennis", my team wins the point.

scenario 4:
scenario 5:
scenario 6:
scenario 7:
scenario 8:
scenario 9:
scenario 10:
infinity....................................

Bottom Line is Rules are Rules, and are not there to apply at players convenience or leisure.

Quite frankly, the server he should be embarassed that she:


is a 4.5
is playing in a sectional
has two referees looking at her serveand still foot faulted on match point costing her team a win. Don't blame the rule, blame the player.

Winky
08-17-2010, 09:38 PM
When someone says "foot fault is a foot fault" or "rules are rules" they're offering a slogan in place of making a case for their point of view.


I agree with this. Any ref who calls a foot fault on a match point, unless the foot fault is completely egregious, should NOT be reffing. ESPECIALLY when it's the first foot-fault called in the match?? That's just insane.

I mean yeah if the person has his whole foot over the line or something, that's one thing, but I assume in high-level matches it's only going to be the toes or maybe the side of one foot if the server uses a pinpoint stance. There is no reason that should be called unless it's been called consistently though the match.

mutantducky
08-17-2010, 11:40 PM
Agreed JRB,Z-Man, etc
maybe not the whole story was told but going from the first post.
As someone who refs sports and gets paid quite well for it there are times when you let infractions go and this was clearly one of them. Those officials needed to stay the F$CK out of that match. Pure power tripping and sticking their nose in where it does not belong. Boredom as well. How about giving a warning or if it is so minor as not to be noticed just ignoring and letting the players DECIDE THE MATCH. If there had been warnings or foot faults called then yes it is fine but if the officials suddenly decide to interfere at such a crucial stage then they are completely out of line. What Serena did after the foot fault was called was bad but it should have never been called in the first place.
Take basketball, score tied, second remaining and there is a little hand check that could be called a foul but there is no advantage gained. Let it go.
Take the recent golf incident when a player was penalized for some asinine reason.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/news/story?id=5470940
"Golf is the best game with the stupidest rules ever invented."

So now people remember that instead of who won.
I also will say that if I were the opponents in this case I'd say F$ off to the refs and let play continue. Maybe they were baffled by what happened but if I'm ever playing and a USTA wannabee clown calls something if they hadn't been asked to come over or give a warning them I'm saying F off and I hope my opponent ignores them as well. For those defending the foot fault call, would you really be willing to take a Trophy on say a 3 set hard-fought with integrity on both sides, but on match point a foot fault is called. If you say yes, then good luck with your sycophantic ways but leave the real sports to the players.
And no one lost that match and NO One won it either.


re
that voice was good, nice link---
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnQp9YoLl68

tennis tom
08-18-2010, 12:34 AM
As someone who refs sports and gets paid quite well for it there are times when you let infractions go and this was clearly one of them.


I don't know what sports you ref but it ain't tennis. A foot-fault, is a foot-fault, is a foot-fault, no matter when it happens (or to who). In tennis, if an official calling the lines sees it and doesn't call it, they are cheating for the other side and not doing the job they are paid to do.

Maybe that's how tennis and golf are different from other sports, in that those who choose to participate in them are held to higher standards than other sports.

Serena was rightfully called for foot-faulting and what she said to that poor lines-person was outrageous and perhaps racist. I've never heard her apologize to the lines-person for verbally assaulting and physically threatening her. Instead her PR people spun it into the phony $92,000 promo campaign so they can probably write the fine off as a business expense.

If you disagree, then I'd like to sell you a used car, that I just discovered it's transmission to be going bad yesterday--but I have no responsibility to inform you of it since it ran great the day before. Or cheat on your spouse and try explaining it was the first time and therefore does't count.

J_R_B
08-18-2010, 01:56 AM
scenario 1:
OK, so I am the server in this situation, and hit my first serve out. Knowing I am facing a match point and that foot faults really don't count in this situation, I blatantly cross the line and bomb another serve in for an ace.

scenario 2:
Since its match point, even if I hit my second serve out by 6 inches, it should be played as in......... since it is match point of course, and "people want to play tennis".

scenario 3:
I foot fault, and serve is out, but being that it is match point, the ball is still live. Opponents return the serve, and teams go on to play a long rally. I hit the last shot out by 6 inches and no one gets their racquet on it. However, since it is match point, and "people want to play tennis", my team wins the point.

scenario 4:
scenario 5:
scenario 6:
scenario 7:
scenario 8:
scenario 9:
scenario 10:
infinity....................................

Bottom Line is Rules are Rules, and are not there to apply at players convenience or leisure.

Quite frankly, the server he should be embarassed that she:


is a 4.5
is playing in a sectional
has two referees looking at her serveand still foot faulted on match point costing her team a win. Don't blame the rule, blame the player.

That's a bunch of BS. In scenario 1, if someone runs up to the service line and smashes an ace on the second serve, of course it should be called. However, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's not what happened. As for the rest of your scenarios, calling lines is simply not comparable to foot faults because the lines have been called the whole match. There is never any expectation in any match that out balls should be played as in. If foot faults weren't called until a second serve at match point in a super tiebreaker, clearly there is an expectation by the server that the serve she had been using the entire match would not suddenly be a season-ending foot fault. If she's foot faulting, start calling it from the start or at least from some point before it's going to cost her team its entire season.

J_R_B
08-18-2010, 01:58 AM
I don't know what sports you ref but it ain't tennis. A foot-fault, is a foot-fault, is a foot-fault, no matter when it happens (or to who).

"A foot fault is a foot fault is a foot fault", except, of course, when it's not a foot fault for the first 3 hours of the match. Was it a foot fault for the rest of the match? If so, then why wasn't it called? Why was it crucial to screw an entire team at match point if it wasn't important enough to call for the rest of the match?

MAX PLY
08-18-2010, 03:47 AM
As I understand it, the foot fault was not called because the roving refs weren't there for earlier parts of the match. If the foot fault is not called, then the receiving team was cheated or maybe because it is match point, they should be given an extra inch of "in" since the server was given an extra inch of no-fault room--any alternative to the right call yields a ridiculously unfair result. Competitive tennis has no place for "situational calls" that depend on what point in the match is taking place. No one was "screwed" by the call unless of course the call was wrong. A server has the obligation, particularly at match point, to make sure that he or she doesn't foot fault. If you don't think so, then please explain why the receiver shouldn't call a ball "in" that was an inch out on the same match point--I am not sure I understand the difference.

MAX PLY
08-18-2010, 03:54 AM
When someone says "foot fault is a foot fault" or "rules are rules" they're offering a slogan in place of making a case for their point of view.

I'll admit that no one can really "prove" their own point of view, but I think common sense dictates that you don't call a foot fault on the second serve at match point, unless the foot fault was really outrageous. People want to play tennis, not for officials to take over in order to satisfy some tennis "god" in the sky.

My point of view is in fact that the rules are meant to be followed--thought your more evolved "common sense" would lead you there. A further explanation is above. If people want to play tennis for "hits and giggles" that's fine but if, on the other hand, you want to play competitively in an organized tournament, you have an obligation to play by the rules---the "god" is actually not in the sky and the rules in this case are rather unambiguous. I guess in your example, the "god" would have to determine what is "really outrageous," rather than the simple black line test under the rules of tennis. In this case, the decision was made by an official, a presumably objective observer--seems very fair to me.

Fuzzy
08-18-2010, 04:23 AM
You guys keep saying "a foot-fault is a foot-fault" but how is anyone supposed to know they are foot-faulting if the average player never has anyone around to call them.

it's not like we get refs for more the half a dozen matches a year...i would say most players practice by playing with teammates and that's not even a good condition to call foot faults.

with that said I don't think a ref can start calling foot faults on the last point of a match. Start calling them from the beginning so players can learn when they are doing it and adjust....then it's on the player and not on the ref.

drakulie
08-18-2010, 05:25 AM
That's a bunch of BS. In scenario 1, if someone runs up to the service line and smashes an ace on the second serve, of course it should be called.

Oh, I see. It should only count when **YOU** decides what is wrong or right. We should just dismiss the ITF/USTA rules, and go by the J_R_B rule book. :roll:

As for the rest of your bogus argument, the fact is, the refs showed up, when they showed up. Their job is to ensure the game is being played within the rules, and in this instance, they did thier job. Unfortunately for the serving team, the server was irresponsible and violated a rule. To add, she was probably doing it the entire match, so who knows how much of an advantage she was getting every time she served.

drakulie
08-18-2010, 05:29 AM
with that said I don't think a ref can start calling foot faults on the last point of a match. Start calling them from the beginning so players can learn when they are doing it and adjust....then it's on the player and not on the ref.

Interesting. So, somone who has reached the 4.5 level needs someone else to tell them they are foot-faulting and "learn"??? At the 4.5 level, they have already done all the "learning" they need to learn about rules.

bad_call
08-18-2010, 06:38 AM
Oh, I see. It should only count when **YOU** decides what is wrong or right. We should just dismiss the ITF/USTA rules, and go by the J_R_B rule book. :roll:

As for the rest of your bogus argument, the fact is, the refs showed up, when they showed up. Their job is to ensure the game is being played within the rules, and in this instance, they did thier job. Unfortunately for the serving team, the server was irresponsible and violated a rule. To add, she was probably doing it the entire match, so who knows how much of an advantage she was getting every time she served.

so the ref waited til the last possible point ? ...sweeeeeettt!!! :twisted:

tennis tom
08-18-2010, 06:40 AM
... but how is anyone supposed to know they are foot-faulting if the average player never has anyone around to call them.


If they have a pro they take lessons from regularly, that pro should be responsible for his student learning how not to foot fault.

If the player is on a team, his captain should be responsible for observing his team members and pointing out that they are foot faulting. Unfortunatly, in league tennis, it's usually the blind leading the blind. The captain is not a pro or someone who has a deep knowledge of the sport of tennis. He's more of an administrator, who's main job is to e-mail his team where to play and when.

I've sat on the sidelines, with league team captains, who were playoff bound and observed egregious foot faulting. I pointed it out to the captain. I told him he needs to fix that because it will come back to bite him. I told him his players will fall apart when they are called for it for the first time, under the pressure of a playoff match. I've been there and seen it happen. I'm sure my warning fell on deaf ears.

Teams will often take lessons from the club pro and that is an excellent opportunity to deal with it. Club pros often travel to playoffs with teams and do prematch warmups and that would also be a good opportunity to deal with foot faulting.

The USTA should hold clinics at tournaments to educate it's membership in the basic rules of tennis. It's amazing how many who have "played" for years are clueless to the sport's fundamental rules. No one reads those cards about the code they hand-out. Maybe USTA should produce videos about the rules that could be viewed at clubs or a copy mailed to each new member.

The problem with tennis and the rules today is that the inmates are running the asylum. The club pros and Directors of Tennis are too busy administering to the few who take lessons from them to pay any attention to the rest of the club's membership. They are derelict in their duty to the sport that feeds them by not pointing out and enforcing the rules. They are either indifferent to their job or too afraid of offending their fragile member's sensibilities and lose a future opportunity to get into their wallets.

Cindysphinx
08-18-2010, 06:41 AM
Woodrow suggested there shouldn't have been a gaggle of officials around scrutinizing these four players. I suspect that if the officials had roved as they were supposed to, the FF call wouldn't have happened.

These four players weren't officiated in the manner in which they should have been. That, IMHO, is the issue, not whether there was in fact a FF.

I personally think the rules should be changed for roving official matches. The roving official should have to give one FF warning before they can call the FF on a particular player (with the effect of the warning to allow the server to repeat that serve).

If there is a second violation, the FF call is appropriate, with it being a fault. If one official gives the warning in the first set, a different official can call the FF later in the match. The way this would be done is the second official can say "FF." The players will of course remember whether that player was previously warned, and they will know how to proceed from there.

IMHO the current rules are unnecessarily drastic for matches involving league players and roving officials.

JRstriker12
08-18-2010, 06:42 AM
You guys keep saying "a foot-fault is a foot-fault" but how is anyone supposed to know they are foot-faulting if the average player never has anyone around to call them.

it's not like we get refs for more the half a dozen matches a year...i would say most players practice by playing with teammates and that's not even a good condition to call foot faults.

with that said I don't think a ref can start calling foot faults on the last point of a match. Start calling them from the beginning so players can learn when they are doing it and adjust....then it's on the player and not on the ref.

Well it happend, so it's obvious that a ref CAN call a footfault or any infraction at any point in the match, that's why they are there.

Anyone who goes to districts or sectionals knows that they need to be more careful and brush up on the rules a bit, as they may not get away with anything that may fly in a match without officals. In fact, I've seen this seen warnings in the packets sent to captains that they should make their players aware that an offical may be observing their match.

As for learning - do you mean it's okay to cheat unless you are called on it early in a match? So you can commit an infraction against the rules and continue to do it, unless it's called "early in the match"? There's no "match point exception" in the code or the rules of tennis.

drakulie
08-18-2010, 06:42 AM
so the ref waited til the last possible point ? ...sweeeeeettt!!! :twisted:


read the OP. the refs showed up late in the match, and if at that point is when she foot-faulted, and they called it, then so be it. They did their job.

JRstriker12
08-18-2010, 06:45 AM
It's not even "late in the match", it's a 2nd serve at 10-11 in a match tiebreaker. The pros are one thing, but in rec, you hate to see a roving official decide a match like that. And, again, it's different than a line call. Lines are called on every point of every match at the rec level, so there is an expectation that line calls will be made on every point. That is definitely not the case on foot fautls.

There's no "Match Point" exceptions in the code or rules of tennis. All rules apply, even on match point.

There's also the expectation that matches at Districts and Sectionals will be observed by officals who have the power to call an infraction, so players should know that they need to be more careful than in a standard league match.

drakulie
08-18-2010, 06:51 AM
There's not "Match Point" exceptions in the code or rules of tennis. All rules apply, even on match point.

There's also the expectation that matches at Districts and Sectionals will be observed by officals who have the power to call an infraction, so players should know that they need to be more careful than in a standard league match.

This is the real problem. Players go out, blatantly violate rules in every match, don't get called on it, and get away with it. Then suddenly, BAM!!!, someone calls them on a violation, and they feel they have been cheated, rather than taking responsibility and admission of their blatant violations.

Unfortunately, as you could see from this thread, people are irresponsible and are always looking someeone else, or something to blame for their own failures.

But make no mistake, that if each poster in this thread were the one to get victimized by someone else having an advantage over them, they would be the first ones yelling, "There is no justice in this world".

JRstriker12
08-18-2010, 06:54 AM
Woodrow suggested there shouldn't have been a gaggle of officials around scrutinizing these four players. I suspect that if the officials had roved as they were supposed to, the FF call wouldn't have happened.

These four players weren't officiated in the manner in which they should have been. That, IMHO, is the issue, not whether there was in fact a FF.

I personally think the rules should be changed for roving official matches. The roving official should have to give one FF warning before they can call the FF on a particular player (with the effect of the warning to allow the server to repeat that serve).

If there is a second violation, the FF call is appropriate, with it being a fault. If one official gives the warning in the first set, a different official can call the FF later in the match. The way this would be done is the second official can say "FF." The players will of course remember whether that player was previously warned, and they will know how to proceed from there.

IMHO the current rules are unnecessarily drastic for matches involving league players and roving officials.

I though about doing a warning, but I would result in a sitution that's even more unfair for the opposing team.

For example - it's 11-10 in the tie break, on the player's second serve and they foot fault on match point then they get a warning and a THIRD serve?

That would penalize the opposing team. I'd be more ticked about that. They broke the rules as called by an offical and they get another chance at serve.

Personally, I don't have a problem with the roving officals. If anything, the fact that there are certain rules in tennis that people can break constantly without being called shows that maybe there should be more officials at more league matches.

tennis tom
08-18-2010, 07:01 AM
I'm a captain in Michigan and we just got back from States.

I did not see one, not one, foot fault called all weekend. The refs actually didn't seem to by paying much attention to anything while on the court. I asked a simple question to one of them during a match and the ref seemed confused.

I'm convinced they don't have a clue what is going on, if they're not making calls consistently they have no right to make them at all.


A good example of the general downfall of society and the game of tennis along with it. Complain to the USTA, they are supplying these officials and you are paying good money to have them there.

Maybe the refs are too afraid of being attacked by an angry mob of serenas.

Fedace
08-18-2010, 07:03 AM
read the OP. the refs showed up late in the match, and if at that point is when she foot-faulted, and they called it, then so be it. They did their job.

what Job ? Ref is an Idiot. footfaulting like crazy all match long and nobody calls it til match point. That is a Travesty or even called CHEATING. that's what my opponents would think if i don't call it during the match and all of sudden,.......oh,,,,,pal....uhoh,,that was a footfault,,match point,,,,,,,
SORRRRY,,,,Cheeerios...:)

drakulie
08-18-2010, 07:19 AM
^^We don't know if she was doing it all match long. Additionally, the ref was not there for the entirety of the match.

and who cares what point it was. Rules are in effect every point. Not when it is convenient.

r2473
08-18-2010, 07:39 AM
Rules are in effect every point. Not when it is convenient.

In some sense, it really comes down to what is "normal and customary". Are ALL rules being strictly enforced for the entire match? If so, then the expectation has been established and the participants will be conditioned to act accordingly.

Likewise, if ALL rules are not being strictly enforced for the entire match, this expectation has been set, and participants are conditioned to act accordingly.

I would favor consistency in rules application. Not a blind "rules are rules" type of mindset. If ALL rules are not being strictly enforced for the entire match, then clearly "rules are not rules".

For you "rules are rules" crowd, how many of you would think it fair to receive a ticket for going 35.5 MPH in a 35 MPH zone? How about a ticket for jaywalking? Perhaps you are one of those guys that does not stop behind the white line at a stop sign. Do you always come to a full and complete stop behind the white line before making a right turn on a red light? Do you always use your turn signals? Is your seatbelt fastened everytime before you engage the car? Now lets imagine that there was a police officer present EVERY TIME you created even the most minor infraction. What would you think? How about if this ever present officer let you go for this most of the time, but as you were driving to the hospital (non-life threatening situation), this officer decided that he should issue a ticket for you not stopping behind the white line at a stop sign? Hey, the situation doesn't matter. Rules are rules.

What I am saying is, there is not way the "rules are rules" crowd can remain consistent with this argument at all times. So why do you arbitrarily bring out this argument only in certain situations? Seems hypocritical to me.

And if you think my traffic analogy is not applicable, let me ask the "rules are rules" people if they consistently enforce all of the tennis rules strictly and to the letter. I am going to hazard that NO ONE does this.

Point is, you cannot arbitrarily apply a "rules are rules" argument only when it suits your purpose. Unless you can also accept being a hypocrite.

Conclusion: A "Normal and Customary" argument is more fair than an inconsistent application of a "Rules are Rules" argument.

Fugazi
08-18-2010, 07:44 AM
How about allowing one foot fault per match to each player. Thus every player would be allowed one foot fault without being penalized (the only consequence on this first offense would be to replay that serve). Getting that warning for the first offense would not lead players to take advantage of the rule, since there would be only one warning. Making a big intentional first foot fault on match point to get a better angle on the serve would not be useful, because the foot fault would simply be called. What do you guys think?

bad_call
08-18-2010, 07:48 AM
Oh, I see. It should only count when **YOU** decides what is wrong or right. We should just dismiss the ITF/USTA rules, and go by the J_R_B rule book. :roll:

As for the rest of your bogus argument, the fact is, the refs showed up, when they showed up. Their job is to ensure the game is being played within the rules, and in this instance, they did thier job. Unfortunately for the serving team, the server was irresponsible and violated a rule. To add, she was probably doing it the entire match, so who knows how much of an advantage she was getting every time she served.

^^We don't know if she was doing it all match long. Additionally, the ref was not there for the entirety of the match.

and who cares what point it was. Rules are in effect every point. Not when it is convenient.

contradictory to an outsider...unless one is an insider. ;)

Cindysphinx
08-18-2010, 07:55 AM
How about allowing one foot fault per match to each player. Thus every player would be allowed one foot fault without being penalized (the only consequence on this first offense would be to replay that serve). Getting that warning for the first offense would not lead players to take advantage of the rule, since there would be only one warning. Making a big intentional first foot fault on match point to get a better angle on the serve would not be useful, because the foot fault would simply be called. What do you guys think?

That's basically what I said, so I think you are a genius! :)

JRStriker, the scenario you suggest (player gets a third serve on match point) doesn't bother me at all. That second serve that results in the player's first FF warning of the match might well have been an ace, but the warning erases it.

And of course, under the current rules a player could not call another player for a FF on match point without -- you guessed it! -- having issued a warning first.

drakulie
08-18-2010, 07:58 AM
In some sense, it really comes down to what is "normal and customary". Are ALL rules being strictly enforced for the entire match? If so, then the expectation has been established and the participants will be conditioned to act accordingly.

I understand what you are saying, and although could definitely appreicate it,,, fact is, she was called on it. It is not the ref's fault that the players were tolerating her foot faulting (if she was doing it) throughout the match, and that they had come up with their own system of rules. Did both teams inform the ref before the match that they were going to ignore the USTA rules, and make up their own? Don't think so.

How about allowing one foot fault per match to each player. Thus every player would be allowed one foot fault without being penalized (the only consequence on this first offense would be to replay that serve).

I like this. Let's see....... I have played a tight final match where I have split sets. I foot faulted once in the first set, thus received my one and only "second chance" immediately afterwards. Later in the third set tie break, I'm serving to stay in it, and it is match point for my opponent. I miss my first serve, and on my second try, my opponent purposely calls a foot fault.

Game, Set, Match.

MAX PLY
08-18-2010, 08:00 AM
In some sense, it really comes down to what is "normal and customary". Are ALL rules being strictly enforced for the entire match? If so, then the expectation has been established and the participants will be conditioned to act accordingly.

Likewise, if ALL rules are not being strictly enforced for the entire match, this expectation has been set, and participants are conditioned to act accordingly.

I would favor consistency in rules application. Not a blind "rules are rules" type of mindset. If ALL rules are not being strictly enforced for the entire match, then clearly "rules are not rules".

For you "rules are rules" crowd, how many of you would think it fair to receive a ticket for going 35.5 MPH in a 35 MPH zone? How about a ticket for jaywalking? Perhaps you are one of those guys that does not stop behind the white line at a stop sign. Do you always come to a full and complete stop behind the white line before making a right turn on a red light? Do you always use your turn signals? Is your seatbelt fastened everytime before you engage the car? Now lets imagine that there was a police officer present EVERY TIME you created even the most minor infraction. What would you think? How about if this ever present officer let you go for this most of the time, but as you were driving to the hospital (non-life threatening situation), this officer decided that he should issue a ticket for you not stopping behind the white line at a stop sign? Hey, the situation doesn't matter. Rules are rules.

What I am saying is, there is not way the "rules are rules" crowd can remain consistent with this argument at all times. So why do you arbitrarily bring out this argument only in certain situations? Seems hypocritical to me.

And if you think my traffic analogy is not applicable, let me ask the "rules are rules" people if they consistently enforce all of the tennis rules strictly and to the letter. I am going to hazard that NO ONE does this.

Point is, you cannot arbitrarily apply a "rules are rules" argument only when it suits your purpose. Unless you can also accept being a hypocrite.

Conclusion: A "Normal and Customary" argument is more fair than an inconsistent application of a "Rules are Rules" argument.

Not much of an applicable anology since the traffic rules are not in play for competition between two parties--and police officers are, as part of their duties, given discretion (your hospital example) that officials with respect to foot faults are not given.

A better anology using traffic is should one drive through a cross walk without stopping if pedestrians are moving across the road even though it is truly undiscernable that one might get hit. In addition, in each of your cited cases, there would be an police officer there at each time--suffice it to say, the if such were the case, most would keep under the speed limit and come to a full stop--I actually think your analogy of having a cop present proves the case. Those who violate with an official there, knowingly assume the risk and should bear the consequences.

If the match is between friends, maybe the rules are not closely enforced. Likewise, in a self-officiated match in a tournament, as to the foot fault, I think the rule is to give a first warning (and frankly in such case it is difficult for the receiver to see that far). In an official tournament match with linespeople, there is no such accomodation. Likewise, if the reciever hit a great and winning return on a serve that was a little out but did not call it out, the official should have corrected that call too. It should work both ways--which is why situational calls are bad.

goober
08-18-2010, 08:06 AM
In some sense, it really comes down to what is "normal and customary". Are ALL rules being strictly enforced for the entire match? If so, then the expectation has been established and the participants will be conditioned to act accordingly.


Conclusion: A "Normal and Customary" argument is more fair than an inconsistent application of a "Rules are Rules" argument.

If you have roving officials then it is normal and customary to have them make spot foot fault calls if they see them regardless at what point it happens to be during the match. Every time I have seen roving officials this is how they operate. So the expectation is if an official is watching your match you should expect him to call it if he sees it even he was not there at the entire match till the very end.

r2473
08-18-2010, 08:09 AM
Not much of an applicable anology since the traffic rules

Which is why I hesitated to use this analogy. I knew someone would argue it very precisely. It was only meant to bring up obvious situations in everyone's daily life where rules are in place, but not strictly enforced.

My traffic analogy is as inapplicable as equating line calls (not your argument Max, but it is present in this thread) with foot fault calls. Lines are always called strictly. I would argue that footfaults are not always called so strictly and consistently.

Likewise, at this level, we all know rules are not strictly enforced at all times in tennis matches. Even in the same type of match (friendly vs. officials on court).

You can argue that this footfault call is OK. But I would not allow a "rules are rules" argument as justification. It is inconsistent.

r2473
08-18-2010, 08:13 AM
If you have roving officials then it is normal and customary to have them make spot foot fault calls if they see them regardless at what point it happens to be during the match. Every time I have seen roving officials this is how they operate. So the expectation is if an official is watching your match you should expect him to call it if he sees it even he was not there at the entire match till the very end.

I can agree with this if true.

However, in my experience, I have found footfault calling to be more discretionary. Something akin to the 25 seconds between serves or 1 minute between changeovers rule. It is not strictly enforced on a consistent basis even by roving officials and that has become the expectation.

In any event, I cannot agree with a "rules are rules" justification, because I don't see all rules being strictly enforced on a consistent basis.

bad_call
08-18-2010, 08:16 AM
I can agree with this if true.

But I cannot agree with a "rules are rules" justification, because I don't see all rules being strictly enforced on a consistent basis.

who's your buddy...who's your pal. ;)

Cindysphinx
08-18-2010, 08:17 AM
I like this. Let's see....... I have played a tight final match where I have split sets. I foot faulted once in the first set, thus received my one and only "second chance" immediately afterwards. Later in the third set tie break, I'm serving to stay in it, and it is match point for my opponent. I miss my first serve, and on my second try, my opponent purposely calls a foot fault.

Game, Set, Match.

I thought we were talking about roving officials. Are players allowed to call FFs in officiated matches?

In any case, if it is a situation without officials then your opponent could still warn you in the first set and then purposely call a FF on match point.

So, uh . . . . there's that.

HeavyDluxe
08-18-2010, 08:20 AM
If I was in the OP's position - having lost a match on a foot fault called by recently arrived official - I would be ****ed and sad.

However, the official was doing what the officials are supposed to do. I violated the rules, they called it, that's it.

Is it a bummer? Yeah. But the ref did *nothing* wrong for calling the violation, even on match point and 10-11 in a tiebreak.

drakulie
08-18-2010, 08:27 AM
I thought we were talking about roving officials. Are players allowed to call FFs in officiated matches?

In any case, if it is a situation without officials then your opponent could still warn you in the first set and then purposely call a FF on match point.

So, uh . . . . there's that.


Good point, and it is the part of the point I have been making all along. You have just described yet another scenario. So now we have rules for matches with officiated matches, vs matches that aren't officiated, which makes it even more complicated.

And yes, one is allowed to call a foot fault on their opponent.

hcelizondo
08-18-2010, 08:30 AM
Woodrow suggested there shouldn't have been a gaggle of officials around scrutinizing these four players. I suspect that if the officials had roved as they were supposed to, the FF call wouldn't have happened.

These four players weren't officiated in the manner in which they should have been. That, IMHO, is the issue, not whether there was in fact a FF.

I personally think the rules should be changed for roving official matches. The roving official should have to give one FF warning before they can call the FF on a particular player (with the effect of the warning to allow the server to repeat that serve).

If there is a second violation, the FF call is appropriate, with it being a fault. If one official gives the warning in the first set, a different official can call the FF later in the match. The way this would be done is the second official can say "FF." The players will of course remember whether that player was previously warned, and they will know how to proceed from there.

IMHO the current rules are unnecessarily drastic for matches involving league players and roving officials.

I'm sorry Cindy but I completely disagree with this. Think about this scenario. first game of the match Player A hits the ball and it is only 1 inch away. The official clearly sees the ball out but the point is conceded to Player A because the ball was too close to the line and at the same time gives a warning to player A and let him know that the next ball (out 1 inch away) will be called out for sure :confused::confused::confused:

As Drakulie stated the officials did their job and the only one to blame is the player who FF. If you spend a lot of time working with a pro in you BH & FH why you don't work in your serve so you don't FF :confused: Specially at 4.5 it is a big advantage to serve 5 inches inside the court

Cindysphinx
08-18-2010, 08:35 AM
Good point, and it is the part of the point I have been making all along. You have just described yet another scenario. So now we have rules for matches with officiated matches, vs matches that aren't officiated, which makes it even more complicated.

And yes, one is allowed to call a foot fault on their opponent.

In an officiated match, a player can call a FF on their opponent?

I ask because I honestly don't know the answer, as I don't play many officiated matches.

The Code says this:

40. Requesting an official. While normally a player may not leave the
playing area, the player may contact the Referee or a Roving Umpire to
request assistance. Some reasons for visiting the Referee include:
• stalling;
• chronic flagrant foot faults;
• a Medical Time-Out
• a scoring dispute; and
• a pattern of bad calls.
A player may refuse to play until an official responds.

And the comments to the Rules say this:

USTA Comment 18.6: When may the receiver or the receiver’s
partner call foot faults? In a non-officiated match, the receiver or the receiver’s
partner may call foot faults after all efforts (warning the server
and attempting to locate an official) have failed and the foot faulting is
so flagrant as to be clearly perceptible from the receiver’s side.

If players can call FF in officiated matches, why is there a need for a rule telling players they can seek an official to deal with FFs? The player can just call them without help from an official if they are flagrant.

I think this implies that players can't call FFs in officiated matches.

And I fully expect Woodrow to stop by and tell me exactly why I am wrong! :)

Cindysphinx
08-18-2010, 08:38 AM
I'm sorry Cindy but I completely disagree with this. Think about this scenario. first game of the match Player A hits the ball and it is only 1 inch away. The official clearly sees the ball out but the point is conceded to Player A because the ball was too close to the line and at the same time gives a warning to player A and let him know that the next ball (out 1 inch away) will be called out for sure :confused::confused::confused:

I have to respectfully take issue with your comparing line calls to FF calls.

The Code already treats the two things differently. FF calls require a warning and have to be "flagrant." "Out" calls do not require a warning and the ball does not have to be flagrantly out to be out. Trying to compare the two in analyzing this situation doesn't work so well.

drakulie
08-18-2010, 08:41 AM
Cindy, an opponent could call foot faults. Period.

If not, then everyone could be serving from the net in unofficiated matches or when the roving official is not around. It really is that simple.

To add, an "effort" could be considered player A, telling player B, that he/she will be calling foot faults.

Not to pick on you, but based on previous threads with this issue, you seem to have a very hard time with this footfault rule. It is probably safe to say that you probably foot fault quite regularly.

Cindysphinx
08-18-2010, 08:48 AM
Cindy, an opponent could call foot faults. Period.

If not, then everyone could be serving from the net in unofficiated matches or when the roving official is not around. It really is that simple.

To add, an "effort" could be considered player A, telling player B, that he/she will be calling foot faults.

Not to pick on you, but based on previous threads with this issue, you seem to have a very hard time with this footfault rule. It is probably safe to say that you probably foot fault quite regularly.

Boy. You learn something every day.

I thought when the code says "all efforts have failed" and then lists those efforts as including locating an official, and there are roving officials working the match, the player is going to have to rely on the roving officials. It seems so plain.

I'm glad we discussed it, 'cause I thought the rules and code said the opposite of what you're saying. Now I know . . .

As for me, I have no problems with the FF rule personally. I received one warning from an official at Districts 2 years ago. I backed up from the line. Other than that, I have never, ever been warned or accused of FF by a teammate, opponent or official. Nah, my fascination with the rule is purely an intellectual one.

drakulie
08-18-2010, 08:51 AM
If players can call FF in officiated matches, why is there a need for a rule telling players they can seek an official to deal with FFs? The player can just call them without help from an official if they are flagrant.

I think this implies that players can't call FFs in officiated matches.



OK, you seem to really be mixing things up here.

For one, in an "officiated match" the player wouldn't need to call a "foot fault" because the official is already there. :roll:

Secondly, in the "usta comments" you provided,:

USTA Comment 18.6: When may the receiver or the receiver’s
partner call foot faults? In a non-officiated match, the receiver or the receiver’s
partner may call foot faults after all efforts (warning the server
and attempting to locate an official) have failed and the foot faulting is
so flagrant as to be clearly perceptible from the receiver’s side.

Notice how you BOLDED the part where it say "In a non-officiated match". This means, it is not officiated, and there are no officials. For example a friendly match between you and me. :)

Anyway, later in the comments it says, "partner may call foot faults after all efforts (warning the server and attempting to locate an official)".

Why would there be the need to "attempt to locate an official", if it is not an "officiated match"???

One more thing, what could be defined as "flagrant" to you, may not be "flagrant" to others. So there could literally be hundreds upon hundreds of different definitions of what a "foot fault actually is" depending on whom you ask. Same could be said of "attempts made". As you have found out, my definition of attempt in this case is to tell the person that I will be calling foot faults from the very first point, where as your "attempt" may be giving them a break up to 10 foot faults.

We conclude, that players may call foot faults.

tennis tom
08-18-2010, 08:56 AM
How about allowing one foot fault per match to each player. Thus every player would be allowed one foot fault without being penalized (the only consequence on this first offense would be to replay that serve). Getting that warning for the first offense would not lead players to take advantage of the rule, since there would be only one warning. Making a big intentional first foot fault on match point to get a better angle on the serve would not be useful, because the foot fault would simply be called. What do you guys think?


Let's add to that ONE FREE ACE per match that can be used at any time.

Cindysphinx
08-18-2010, 09:02 AM
OK, you seem to really be mixing things up here.

For one, in an "officiated match" the player wouldn't need to call a "foot fault" because the official is already there. :roll:

Um . . . Yeah. That's kind of what I'm saying. I'm saying players don't call FF in officiated matches.

See, you wrote this:

Originally Posted by drakulie View Post
I like this. Let's see....... I have played a tight final match where I have split sets. I foot faulted once in the first set, thus received my one and only "second chance" immediately afterwards. Later in the third set tie break, I'm serving to stay in it, and it is match point for my opponent. I miss my first serve, and on my second try, my opponent purposely calls a foot fault.

Game, Set, Match.

I said this was an odd thing to say because we're talking in OP about an officiated match.

Anyway, it's nice to know we are in perfect agreement. Players cannot call FFs in officiated matches.

Happy Tennis, Drak!!

drakulie
08-18-2010, 09:07 AM
^^I see where you got mixed up. I was alluding to an official match (say a sectional), where there were no officials overseeing the match.

Be well, Cindy. :)

drakulie
08-18-2010, 09:08 AM
Let's add to that ONE FREE ACE per match that can be used at any time.


and one "do over", especially if you hit the ball out on match point. :)

Cindysphinx
08-18-2010, 09:09 AM
^^I see where you got mixed up. I was alluding to an official match (say a sectional), where there were no officials overseeing the match.

Be well, Cindy. :)

Yeah, you scared me for a minute there. I thought you were talking about "sectionals," which determine who goes to nationals and have roving officials.

Cheers! :)

pyrokid
08-18-2010, 09:12 AM
This reminds me of a tourny match a while ago.

A dude who whupped up on me 2 and 3 in the semis was playing his finals match, He was up 6-1, 3-1, and started cramping.
From there, he lost the second set 6-4 and was down 9-8 in the breaker when he hit himself on the shin with his racquet. He got a point penalty, and lost the match.
Funny thing is, a week ago I played in another tourny with him and again lost in the semis, but to the person he was playing in the finals, not him.
He was playing his finals. It was 11-12 in a super breaker, and his opponent hit a shot that was about 10 inches out. He called it.
Now, we have this one ref in our area who is known of as a total joke. She does nothing right, is nearly blind, doesn't know the rules, and makes everyone angry.

She overruled the call and gave the match to the other guy. It was ridiculous.

Refs have to ave some consistency.

JRstriker12
08-18-2010, 09:26 AM
That's basically what I said, so I think you are a genius! :)

JRStriker, the scenario you suggest (player gets a third serve on match point) doesn't bother me at all. That second serve that results in the player's first FF warning of the match might well have been an ace, but the warning erases it.

And of course, under the current rules a player could not call another player for a FF on match point without -- you guessed it! -- having issued a warning first.

It would bug me. If my opponent breaks the rules, they shouldn't benefit.

It's not an ace if you foot fault. Just like it's not an ace of the ball does not land in the server's box.

Also, it wasn't a player's call, it was an offical's call. The code asks player to give a warning after it happens, but they should also request for an offical - who can be in the position to call them without a warning.

For those defending the foot faulter, I find the last bolded part from the code to be interesting - so is hooking a player okay on match point? LOL!

24. Foot Faults. The Receiver or Receiverís partner may call foot faults only
after the Server has been warned at least once and the request for an official has failed. This call should be made only when the Receiver or Receiverís partner is absolutely certain and the foot faulting is so flagrant as to be clearly perceptible from the Receiverís side. The plea that a Server should not be penalized because the Server only just touched the line and did not rush the net is not acceptable. Habitual foot faulting, whether intentional or careless, is just as surely cheating as is making a deliberate bad line call.

r2473
08-18-2010, 09:42 AM
I guess that, given two competing values, I favor consistent enforcement of the rules over accurate enforcement of the rules.

Surely someone will take this comment and say something absurd like "so if your opponent consistently hooks calls by 1-foot you are OK with that"?

I think what I am suggesting in my first sentence is plain enough, but it is easy to argue the footfaulting issue to extremes of absurdity.

BustedString
08-18-2010, 11:41 AM
Foot fault is a foot fault at any competitive level--sorry, but foot faulter deserves to lose the point (no matter what point in the match it was). If the server was truly a 4.5, then the player should be doubly embarrassed.

The foot faulter is an incredibly strong 4.5 and her team is one of those 24-player super teams that probably had their sights set on Nationals.

BustedString
08-18-2010, 11:51 AM
So many excellent counter-points. I support the fact that if it was a foot fault, and two officials saw it, then it was a foot fault and had to be called. One official was there for the 1st set TB but most of the match was unofficiated until the match TB. It was my friend who won so of course I supported it but I also supported it against Serena as well, just believe in a black & white interpretation of the rules -- and I got a speeding ticket for 4 mph over 2 years ago!

My only point to those who thought it was wrong to call it -- and I can see merit in your arguments -- is that this woman started getting to the net so early as the match wore on that I think the foot faults could have given them many more points that they might not have otherwise won. So it hurts to be called for it but maybe you wouldn't have made it to the match TB if you hadn't kept holding so easily because you were on top of the net.

As for those who say that 4.5's should know better, I would disagree. I'm a 4.0 who took up tennis ~6 years ago and I don't have any kind of forward momentum on my serve yet (working on it!) so I would never foot fault. These 4.5+ players know how to maximize their power and know that it comes from forward momentum of their body into the ball. I bet players at the higher levels foot fault more than the lower rated players because they put their body into which increases the risk of going over that line.

Interesting thread.

r2473
08-18-2010, 11:59 AM
One official was there for the 1st set TB but most of the match was unofficiated until the match TB.

this woman started getting to the net so early as the match wore on that I think the foot faults could have given them many more points that they might not have otherwise won.

interesting

seems the match had many un-called foot faults.

unclear if all uncalled footfaults were also unobserved footfaults (1st set TB).

BustedString
08-18-2010, 12:03 PM
interesting

seems the match had many un-called foot faults.

unclear if all uncalled footfaults were also unobserved footfaults (1st set TB).

Don't know if they observed others. The official who watched the 1st set TB was not the same official who called the FF in the 3rd set match TB.

MAX PLY
08-18-2010, 12:14 PM
As for those who say that 4.5's should know better, I would disagree. I'm a 4.0 who took up tennis ~6 years ago and I don't have any kind of forward momentum on my serve yet (working on it!) so I would never foot fault. These 4.5+ players know how to maximize their power and know that it comes from forward momentum of their body into the ball. I bet players at the higher levels foot fault more than the lower rated players because they put their body into which increases the risk of going over that line.

Interesting thread.

Funny, I would come to the opposite conclusion for just the reason you cite. If you are beginning to use your forward momentum, one of the primary things you would worry about is indeed a footfault. Your example of yourself would seem to prove that--you don't go forward so you don't even think about footfaulting. I would agree that a more advanced player is more likely to risk footfaulting (particularly when they are serving and volleying) and for that very reason, they should be more self-aware--precisesly why they should "know better." I actually think the reason it is so common is because it is rarely enforced outside of competitive play.

r2473
08-18-2010, 12:25 PM
I actually think the reason it is so common is because it is rarely enforced outside of competitive play.

Is it often enforced during competitive play (and I'm not talking about tour level)?

bad_call
08-18-2010, 12:33 PM
Funny, I would come to the opposite conclusion for just the reason you cite. If you are beginning to use your forward momentum, one of the primary things you would worry about is indeed a footfault. Your example of yourself would seem to prove that--you don't go forward so you don't even think about footfaulting. I would agree that a more advanced player is more likely to risk footfaulting (particularly when they are serving and volleying) and for that very reason, they should be more self-aware--precisesly why they should "know better." I actually think the reason it is so common is because it is rarely enforced outside of competitive play.

primarily...get the ball in the service box at the desire location with pace/spin/etc.

unless one has a person on the side viewing the service, suspect that most are focusing on the ball/service and not their feet possibly touching or not touching the baseline.

BustedString
08-18-2010, 12:49 PM
Is it often enforced during competitive play (and I'm not talking about tour level)?

I've seen it enforced in the USTA post-season the most, and occasionally at tournaments but that depends upon the official.

r2473
08-18-2010, 12:58 PM
I've seen it enforced in the USTA post-season the most, and occasionally at tournaments but that depends upon the official.

I think most competitive tennis players understand the rules pretty well.

It is the enforcement of said rules that is sometimes hard to understand.

Rules are applicable only so far as they are enforced.

MAX PLY
08-18-2010, 01:09 PM
Is it often enforced during competitive play (and I'm not talking about tour level)?

Again, since most tournament matches are self-officiated, at least until semis, only the flagrant ffs are usually called. I have only seen a handful called in my lifetime in tournament play and the only times I have actually called them (or given a warning) is in doubles when I could see a clear foot fault or once or twice in singles when the center line was obviously crossed before contact. I have had them called on me too--it's part of the game. Frankly, in the spirit of fair play, servers have an obligation to try to not to foot fault.

MAX PLY
08-18-2010, 01:13 PM
primarily...get the ball in the service box at the desire location with pace/spin/etc.

unless one has a person on the side viewing the service, suspect that most are focusing on the ball/service and not their feet possibly touching or not touching the baseline.

I suppose. It all depends on your level and style of play. I still play a good bit of serve and volley and I am very attentive to what my court position is as I finish the serve--I do the same in doubles. So, I pretty much know where I need to stand prior to starting my motion and where I want to end up depending on the direction I am hitting my serve. As such, I am attentive to my begining position and my ending position, and mindful of that baseline.

r2473
08-18-2010, 01:14 PM
Frankly, in the spirit of fair play, servers have an obligation to try to not to foot fault.

I agree.........

(But I still feel the need to post this):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_v468ptuXw

MAX PLY
08-18-2010, 01:19 PM
I agree.........

(But I still feel the need to post this):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_v468ptuXw

LOL. And I thought I was cynical. :)

hcelizondo
08-18-2010, 02:18 PM
I have to respectfully take issue with your comparing line calls to FF calls.

The Code already treats the two things differently. FF calls require a warning and have to be "flagrant." "Out" calls do not require a warning and the ball does not have to be flagrantly out to be out. Trying to compare the two in analyzing this situation doesn't work so well.

The code refers to it when there is a no officiated match. In this case officials were around so there is no need for warning. If you think line calls have nothing to do with FF then why those are treated pretty similar in the code?

i.e. There is no official around, ball is called out when it was clearly in (flagrant bad line call) the only thing you can do is to ask the other player if he is sure if it was out (kind of a warning) if he says out it remains out and then you can look for an official. If there is an official then he would call the ball in as he would call any FF at any given time. See the point? for me the spirit of the rule is the same.

In the OP case. there were 2 officials, their responsibilities are to enforce the rule regardless if it is a ball out or a foot fault .

USERNAME
08-18-2010, 03:41 PM
Wow, thats what happened to me this weekend in a jr singles tourny! Lost the first 4-6 then was serving at ad-out, 5-6. Missed my first serve long and then kicked my second into the body, my opponent missed his return and was walking to the other side when a roaming official said foot fault! Thing is he wasnt in the court or even on my side of the court, how could he tell??? I argued for awhile but its no use with these guys, opponent apologized but it wasnt his doing... So many people told me it was a BS call but whatever.

bad_call
08-18-2010, 03:54 PM
I suppose. It all depends on your level and style of play. I still play a good bit of serve and volley and I am very attentive to what my court position is as I finish the serve--I do the same in doubles. So, I pretty much know where I need to stand prior to starting my motion and where I want to end up depending on the direction I am hitting my serve. As such, I am attentive to my begining position and my ending position, and mindful of that baseline.

suppose? reads like your level of serve is not the same as mine.

bad_call
08-18-2010, 03:56 PM
Wow, thats what happened to me this weekend in a jr singles tourny! Lost the first 4-6 then was serving at ad-out, 5-6. Missed my first serve long and then kicked my second into the body, my opponent missed his return and was walking to the other side when a roaming official said foot fault! Thing is he wasnt in the court or even on my side of the court, how could he tell??? I argued for awhile but its no use with these guys, opponent apologized but it wasnt his doing... So many people told me it was a BS call but whatever.

that's completely unheard of...;)

woodrow1029
08-18-2010, 03:59 PM
Wow, thats what happened to me this weekend in a jr singles tourny! Lost the first 4-6 then was serving at ad-out, 5-6. Missed my first serve long and then kicked my second into the body, my opponent missed his return and was walking to the other side when a roaming official said foot fault! Thing is he wasnt in the court or even on my side of the court, how could he tell??? I argued for awhile but its no use with these guys, opponent apologized but it wasnt his doing... So many people told me it was a BS call but whatever.
Assuming it happened that way, which I think you are exaggerating it a bit. But if it did happen that way, you can call for the tournament referee to the court. Not just for the foot fault, because it's a judgment call, but because of where the official was when he/she called it. They are not in position to make the call from off the court. That is a question of law, and the call could be overturned.

Fugazi
08-18-2010, 05:46 PM
I'm not sure I understand here... Your opponent cannot call a foot fault on you. Only a ref could.

Fugazi
08-18-2010, 05:46 PM
I understand what you are saying, and although could definitely appreicate it,,, fact is, she was called on it. It is not the ref's fault that the players were tolerating her foot faulting (if she was doing it) throughout the match, and that they had come up with their own system of rules. Did both teams inform the ref before the match that they were going to ignore the USTA rules, and make up their own? Don't think so.



I like this. Let's see....... I have played a tight final match where I have split sets. I foot faulted once in the first set, thus received my one and only "second chance" immediately afterwards. Later in the third set tie break, I'm serving to stay in it, and it is match point for my opponent. I miss my first serve, and on my second try, my opponent purposely calls a foot fault.

Game, Set, Match.
I'm not sure I understand here... Your opponent cannot call a foot fault on you. Only a ref could.

Fugazi
08-18-2010, 05:52 PM
In an officiated match, a player can call a FF on their opponent?

I ask because I honestly don't know the answer, as I don't play many officiated matches.

The Code says this:



And the comments to the Rules say this:



If players can call FF in officiated matches, why is there a need for a rule telling players they can seek an official to deal with FFs? The player can just call them without help from an official if they are flagrant.

I think this implies that players can't call FFs in officiated matches.

And I fully expect Woodrow to stop by and tell me exactly why I am wrong! :)
I'm Canadian (from Montreal), and I played tons of tournaments at a provincial, national and international level. I can guarantee there's no way your opponent can call a foot fault on you.

drakulie
08-18-2010, 05:55 PM
I'm not sure I understand here... Your opponent cannot call a foot fault on you. Only a ref could.


Thanks for the heads up. Being that my opponent can't call a foot fault on me, I'll start serving from the net. :roll:

woodrow1029
08-18-2010, 06:04 PM
Thanks for the heads up. Being that my opponent can't call a foot fault on me, I'll start serving from the net. :roll:
Lol.

Yes fugazi your opponent can call a foot fault in you in an unofficiated match.

drakulie
08-18-2010, 06:05 PM
woodrow, why the hell are you doing posting, rather than officiating macthes at Cincy??? What gives??

woodrow1029
08-18-2010, 06:19 PM
Ahh. Never had the desire to work the Cincy masters. I much preferred the Cincy WTA when it was a 32 draw and I actually had time off during the day to go across the street to Kings Island.


Now I'm a paralegal in San Francisco and actually make money for a living

bad_call
08-18-2010, 06:27 PM
Thanks for the heads up. Being that my opponent can't call a foot fault on me, I'll start serving from the net. :roll:

...usta added this rule for drak since he's not sure where to stand when serving. :lol:

drakulie
08-18-2010, 06:28 PM
Ahh. Never had the desire to work the Cincy masters. I much preferred the Cincy WTA when it was a 32 draw and I actually had time off during the day to go across the street to Kings Island.


Now I'm a paralegal in San Francisco and actually make money for a living

^^^Work??? Blah. Excuses. :) I may actually be stringing at the ATP Delray tournament next year, as well as BMW Sunrise Championships! Obviously, I'll be taking time off from work. But all is good. :)

drakulie
08-18-2010, 06:32 PM
...usta added this rule for drak since he's not sure where to stand when serving. :lol:


LOL. No wonder people keep yelling at me when I'm serving.

Fugazi
08-18-2010, 08:17 PM
Lol.

Yes fugazi your opponent can call a foot fault in you in an unofficiated match.
Well like I said, I've never seen it once in almost ten years of pretty high level competition in Canada, US, and Europe. It would be absurd, since most foot faults are by fractions of inches (your opponent is too far to see that...). And I've never seen anyone make foot faults on purpose to get an advantage...

woodrow1029
08-18-2010, 08:23 PM
Well like I said, I've never seen it once in almost ten years of pretty high level competition in Canada, US, and Europe. It would be absurd, since most foot faults are by fractions of inches (your opponent is too far to see that...). And I've never seen anyone make foot faults on purpose to get an advantage...
It needs to be a flagrant foot fault and in an unofficiated match, but it does happen every now and then.

Panic492
08-19-2010, 01:43 PM
Well like I said, I've never seen it once in almost ten years of pretty high level competition in Canada, US, and Europe. It would be absurd, since most foot faults are by fractions of inches (your opponent is too far to see that...). And I've never seen anyone make foot faults on purpose to get an advantage...


I agree- in practical circumstances, in self-called matches FF's are not called.

USERNAME
08-19-2010, 05:43 PM
that's completely unheard of...;)

I KNOW, RIIIIIGHT? :)

Assuming it happened that way, which I think you are exaggerating it a bit. But if it did happen that way, you can call for the tournament referee to the court. Not just for the foot fault, because it's a judgment call, but because of where the official was when he/she called it. They are not in position to make the call from off the court. That is a question of law, and the call could be overturned.

Wow you know I didnt realize that! Ive been playing tournys for so long and I always thought these roaming officials rulings were final since they are the ones who "saw" it (unless they change it) and that I could only bring up a grievance. I feel dumb now...

woodrow1029
08-19-2010, 09:40 PM
I KNOW, RIIIIIGHT? :)



Wow you know I didnt realize that! Ive been playing tournys for so long and I always thought these roaming officials rulings were final since they are the ones who "saw" it (unless they change it) and that I could only bring up a grievance. I feel dumb now...
Only on a question of law (rules or procedures). Not on questions of fact (line calls, touch). In other words, so you're getting what I'm saying, you can't call the tournament referee because they called a foot fault and you don't think you foot faulted. You can call the referee if you don't think that by rule the umpire could call the foot fault from where they were at the time. But you would have to do that immediately.

TourTenor
08-20-2010, 12:52 PM
I'm sorry I missed most of this discussion, but to sum up and IMHO ... if you footfault (officiated match or not) you run the risk of losing the point whenever you do it which can be at any time during a match. When you footfault, no matter what point in the match, you are taking a chance that you will be called on it and you will lose the point. In the original example, the fact that the server was called on it at the most critical time (match point), doesn't matter ... it is their fault, they foot-faulted. End of story.

bad_call
08-20-2010, 04:18 PM
TT - you're a bit late for this one. the ref defaulted you for no-show.

Steady Eddy
08-20-2010, 05:29 PM
scenario 1:
OK, so I am the server in this situation, and hit my first serve out. Knowing I am facing a match point and that foot faults really don't count in this situation, I blatantly cross the line and bomb another serve in for an ace.

See the highlighted part below.
When someone says "foot fault is a foot fault" or "rules are rules" they're offering a slogan in place of making a case for their point of view.

I'll admit that no one can really "prove" their own point of view, but I think common sense dictates that you don't call a foot fault on the second serve at match point, unless the foot fault was really outrageous. People want to play tennis, not for officials to take over in order to satisfy some tennis "god" in the sky.So anything "blatant" is not relevant here. "Rules are rules" is a philosophy for people who are incapable of understanding what the rule is for in the first place. If enforcing the rule ever contradicts the purpose of the rule, then ignore the rule.

I agree with this. Any ref who calls a foot fault on a match point, unless the foot fault is completely egregious, should NOT be reffing. ESPECIALLY when it's the first foot-fault called in the match?? That's just insane.

I mean yeah if the person has his whole foot over the line or something, that's one thing, but I assume in high-level matches it's only going to be the toes or maybe the side of one foot if the server uses a pinpoint stance. There is no reason that should be called unless it's been called consistently though the match.Right. For the first foot fault of a match to be called on match point is ridiculous. No one announces, "Uh, it's match point, so we won't be enforcing the foot fault rule." Don't say anything. If the server's shoe touches 3 millimeters into the line, pretend not to notice.

TourTenor
08-21-2010, 10:44 AM
TT - you're a bit late for this one. the ref defaulted you for no-show.
You're right .... I would like to blame my knee injury but that won't go far with this set of posters.

Kevo
08-21-2010, 12:59 PM
I've given up on calling foot faults. Lots of guys are really sensitive about their feet apparently. Most people deny they do it. How do they know though? They are supposedly watching the ball.

About 1/3 of guys in our league foot fault on 80% or more of their serves. Even guys who hang half their foot inside the line deny it until they get confirmation from several people. Even after they know it, most don't stop doing it.

I've decided it's mostly a waste of time. I tend to mention it in passing after the match in case they might care to correct it, but I've not seen one person fix this yet and I've mentioned it to about 5 opponents.

I played a doubles tournament a couple of years ago where there were signs posted stating that the roving officials will be calling foot faults. None were called in our matches, and every doubles team we played except one had a chronic footfaulter.

tennis tom
08-21-2010, 06:17 PM
I've given up on calling foot faults. Lots of guys are really sensitive about their feet apparently. Most people deny they do it. How do they know though? They are supposedly watching the ball.

About 1/3 of guys in our league foot fault on 80% or more of their serves. Even guys who hang half their foot inside the line deny it until they get confirmation from several people. Even after they know it, most don't stop doing it.

I've decided it's mostly a waste of time. I tend to mention it in passing after the match in case they might care to correct it, but I've not seen one person fix this yet and I've mentioned it to about 5 opponents.

I played a doubles tournament a couple of years ago where there were signs posted stating that the roving officials will be calling foot faults. None were called in our matches, and every doubles team we played except one had a chronic footfaulter.


Quite an abysmal state of affairs. If I were foot faulting, I would be very appreciative of someone pointing it out and I would fix it. But in today's world, of the super-ego, they just don't care.

I've noticed of late, officials at tournaments not doing their job. With the violent attacks on umpires, at even little league and pee-wee football games, who's to blame them for lying low. Especially at league tennis events where the official has to contend with two angry teams and their camps, not just one player. Just more evidence of the increasing lack of respect for authority, the law and fair play in our "culture".

Steady Eddy
08-22-2010, 11:29 AM
I've noticed of late, officials at tournaments not doing their job. With the violent attacks on umpires, at even little league and pee-wee football games, who's to blame them for lying low. Especially at league tennis events where the official has to contend with two angry teams and their camps, not just one player. Just more evidence of the increasing lack of respect for authority, the law and fair play in our "culture".
All this is due to foot-faulting?

mutantducky
08-22-2010, 12:29 PM
it is the root of all evil.

kylebarendrick
08-24-2010, 09:05 AM
Roving officials do call footfaults at District/Sectional/National championships. The tournament information sent to captains and the pre-tournament briefings often include reminders that footfaults will be called. Roving officials often have no idea what the match situation is, since they aren't spending a lot of time watching a particular match. If they see a footfault, they call it - often moving on right aftwerwards. Some examples from my experiences:

1) A situation not too different from the OP. We were playing our final match at sectionals, the lines were tied 2-2, and the final match to decide who went to nationals was in a deciding 10 point tiebreak. An official came by and called a FF on one of our players. I thought he would crumble but he held it together. It was the only FF called in the match.
2) Before one of my matches at nationals one of the officials reminded us that FF would be called if seen.
3) I played in district match last year when an official wandered by our court, called FFs on my partner on consecutive points, and then walked away. I personally thought it would be nice if he had hung around long enough to see our opponents serve, but the fault really was my partner's. In fact, earlier that week we had warned him in practice that he footfaults a lot.

So just or unjust it doesn't really matter. If you FF at a championship level event you may very well get called on it by an official.

r2473
08-24-2010, 10:06 AM
All this is due to foot-faulting?

it is the root of all evil.

If I read Tom correctly, he was citing foot faulting (and the attitudes of many that foot fault) as SYMPTOMS, NOT CAUSES.

Steady Eddy
08-24-2010, 08:08 PM
If I read Tom correctly, he was citing foot faulting (and the attitudes of many that foot fault) as SYMPTOMS, NOT CAUSES.Yes. The fact that so many foot fault nowadays is clear proof that we live very close to the end of time.

Beacon Hill
08-25-2010, 08:53 AM
Roving officials do call footfaults at District/Sectional/National championships. The tournament information sent to captains and the pre-tournament briefings often include reminders that footfaults will be called. Roving officials often have no idea what the match situation is, since they aren't spending a lot of time watching a particular match. If they see a footfault, they call it - often moving on right aftwerwards. Some examples from my experiences:

1) A situation not too different from the OP. We were playing our final match at sectionals, the lines were tied 2-2, and the final match to decide who went to nationals was in a deciding 10 point tiebreak. An official came by and called a FF on one of our players. I thought he would crumble but he held it together. It was the only FF called in the match.
2) Before one of my matches at nationals one of the officials reminded us that FF would be called if seen.
3) I played in district match last year when an official wandered by our court, called FFs on my partner on consecutive points, and then walked away. I personally thought it would be nice if he had hung around long enough to see our opponents serve, but the fault really was my partner's. In fact, earlier that week we had warned him in practice that he footfaults a lot.

So just or unjust it doesn't really matter. If you FF at a championship level event you may very well get called on it by an official.
Roving officials should stay at a court long enough to watch both teams complete a full service game.

r2473
08-25-2010, 09:12 AM
Yes. The fact that so many foot fault nowadays is clear proof that we live very close to the end of time.

I don't mind this type of response as a rhetorical strategy (I sure feel foolish :oops:), but surely you realize that it has nothing to do with "Tom's" or my comments.

rainman007
08-25-2010, 09:54 AM
Was it the same official that took away the perfect game this year?

Fedace
08-25-2010, 09:57 AM
That Refree was fired couple of days ago. He won't be strolling the lines of USTA adult leagues anytime soon.......hehehhehhheee

tennis tom
08-25-2010, 11:24 AM
Yes. The fact that so many foot fault nowadays is clear proof that we live very close to the end of time.


And, I hope, if that should ever materialize, (or de-materialize), I'm on a tennis court playing.

mutantducky
08-26-2010, 10:07 AM
I bet the 4 horsemen of the apocalypse got some mean tennis gear. Thundersticks!!!!