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View Full Version : It doesn't take much to get bumped in USTA


AR15
08-17-2010, 04:49 AM
Had a new player on my team this year. He self-rated as a 3.5. He played three singles matches and won two of them. The Early Start ratings have him bumped to 4.0.

The three matches he played:

His two wins came against weak 3.5 players with weak records. His loss came to a strong 3.5 player, where he lost in a 3rd set tie break.

I'm amazed that a 2-1 record record gets people bumped. Especially with 2 wins against players with mediocre records themselves.

Is also seems odd to me that USTA would allow their computer model to bump a player after only 3 matches. 3 matches is not a large enough sampling to provide statistically significant data for a bump. In this case, if this player played a few more 3.5 matches, he would most likely lose a couple of them, and would not be getting bumped. Consequently, he will most likely lose most of his 4.0 matches, and will get bumped down next year. Why would USTA want to bump players up and down so frequently?

athiker
08-17-2010, 09:02 AM
Did the guy he lost to in a tiebreak get bumped to 4.0 as well? If so then I could see some logic.

njsigman
08-17-2010, 10:36 AM
When do the Early Start Ratings come out? I live in NJ. I think they did not come out until Oct./Nov. last year with the year end rankings around the first week of December.

What the heck takes so long?!? :)

AR15
08-17-2010, 12:17 PM
Did the guy he lost to in a tiebreak get bumped to 4.0 as well? If so then I could see some logic.

Yes, this guy got bumped up. The two he beat stayed the same rating.

johndagolfer
08-17-2010, 12:41 PM
How do you get your early start ranking?

bad_call
08-18-2010, 10:17 AM
seems odd to me. what are the match scores? could the scores be part of the bump rationale?

amarone
08-18-2010, 12:18 PM
When do the Early Start Ratings come out?
It varies by district according to their league schedules. Georgia issues them in March and August, in time for rosters to be submitted for the summer and winter seasons respectively.

amarone
08-18-2010, 12:22 PM
How do you get your early start ranking?
First you have to play in a district that uses them. In Georgia, the ESRs are published on the USTA Georgia web site and I expect other districts do similarly.

Z-Man
08-18-2010, 08:21 PM
The USTA decided to redefine all of the levels this year. They bumped thousands of people up to levels where they formerly did not belong. In theory, if they had bumped enough 4.5s to make 5.0 viable, it would have had a ripple effect and opened up space at each level. I don't think it's working out that way (yet).

Maybe this is just crazytalk, but I think the USTA also redefined the levels in an attempt to boost the popularity of the sport by flattering the vanity of the average club player. Hard core league players who know where they stand are already committed to the sport, but there are a lot of hackers out there who have no clue what their rating is. These people always over-rate themselves. How can the USTA turn these hackers into regular league participants? Make their inflated self-ratings the new actual ratings. The big bump also gives hope to people eternally stuck at the bottom of a level who are too prideful to go down a level where they really belong. People like to have thier egos stroked. It makes them feel good about a sport. With a few clicks of a computer, every recreational tennis player in America got a little better. That's good for the sport, right?

Bedrock
08-19-2010, 01:36 PM
The same thing happened to me ( and not only to me ).
I played only 4 matches with records 3-1 in two tournaments (for my whole life) and got bumped from 3.5 to 4.0.
I think that the effort provided by USTA does not make anything good to the sport.
Reason I believe so that the people should realize themselves which level they belong to.
The most of player are in levels 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5. The rest of divisions are empty or list just about 10-20 people.
What are those divisions for? ( I'm talking only about singles)
I think every one deserves right to have fun to win a trophy at certain level. Initially I tried to sign in for tournament at level 2.0. But I could not find any which would be able to get enough people(I'm talking about So. Cal.). There are very few tournaments which offer that division. The lowest available level I could find was 3.0. So, I have signed up to play in it. Before publishing the draw the tournament director asked me whether it would be OK to move me in division 3.5 since they have to combine players to get enough people to create a draw.
I lost in the first round to guy who became later number one in So. Cal (in 3.5). So I singed up for another tournament and won it. Losing to top player popped my seeding up (one month even up to 3-rd place in division) since I did not lost any other game.
The guys who lost me (even badly without completing the match like 6-0 4-0 …) still got bumped to level 4.0. Now they are frustrated by losing in first rounds of 4.0 tournaments. (Note: according to USTA once you got bumped up the level you received stays with you for 3 years. So you cannot want a year and then start it over)
I do not understand the goal of such movements. (Let's say USTA had a good reason to bumped me up, but other guys who still did not get any luck in 3.5 got stack now in 4.0 )

Another weak spot. Forcing of people to play higher division does not really change anything. Anyone can register new membership(to get new USTA number) and starting after that from any level they want.
USTA should realize that nobody likes to loose, therefore they should try harder to create friendly environment for players of all levels.

Douggo
08-19-2010, 02:01 PM
Clearly, the USTA should provide an atmosphere in which everyone wins.

OrangePower
08-19-2010, 02:20 PM
Clearly, the USTA should provide an atmosphere in which everyone wins.

Absolutely agree.

It's a disgrace: In a single-elimination USTA tournament with a full draw, half of all the entrants are going to end up with a losing record! And a quarter will have only a .500 record. Just one quarter will end up with a winning record.

Having only a quarter of the people end up with winning records is just not democratic.

Bedrock
08-19-2010, 03:00 PM
Absolutely agree.

It's a disgrace: In a single-elimination USTA tournament with a full draw, half of all the entrants are going to end up with a losing record! And a quarter will have only a .500 record. Just one quarter will end up with a winning record.

Having only a quarter of the people end up with winning records is just not democratic.

Divisions 1.0 to 3.0 are empty or almost empty. Same thing is true about divisions 5.0 and above.
Following current strategy everyone will end up in the highest division (within next five-six years).
I would say only top 10 ranked players or those who won more than two tournaments a year can be forced to transfer to higher division.
I order get ranking you should complete at least three tournaments and win at least one match (this is current USTA rules).
So once you won two tournaments and do not want to loose right to play in this division you just have to play the rest of year a division up.
About lower divisions - player should not be allowed to go below the level where he won at least one tournament ( during present and previously years)
Does it sound fair?

USTA does not have any description of how their “computer” system makes decisions about the subject.

NLBwell
08-19-2010, 08:50 PM
Having only a quarter of the people end up with winning records is just not democratic.

Obviously, those with winning records are greedy so we need to distribute the wealth and enforce the new USTA administrative ruling that no one can win more than one match in a row.

Jim A
08-22-2010, 11:51 AM
Amarone, I believe it was him, detailed how it also is a factor as to when you play these opponents as well as the overall score.

If he beat the weaker players first convincingly, his dynamic rating would be a bit higher then potentially if he lost a close one first to the stronger 3.5

amarone
08-22-2010, 12:36 PM
Amarone, I believe it was him, detailed how it also is a factor as to when you play these opponents as well as the overall score.

If he beat the weaker players first convincingly, his dynamic rating would be a bit higher then potentially if he lost a close one first to the stronger 3.5
It was me. After three matches the rating may well be identical no matter which order you play them. However, if you have your "big performance" in the first match, you can generate a strike immediately and that rating will be averaged into subsequent ones, resulting in a possible three strikes.

Let us say that the strike level is 3.8 and you play 3 matches in which you perform to 4.1, 3.7 and 3.6. (This is simplistic, but the principle is sound).

Scenario 1: big result first

After 1st match, rating = 4.1. Strike 1.
After 2nd match, rating = 3.9. Strike 2.
After 3rd match, rating = 3.8. Strike 3

Scenario 2: big result in match 3

After 1st match, rating = 3.6.
After 2nd match, rating = 3.65.
After 3rd match, rating = 3.8. Strike 1

dizzlmcwizzl
08-23-2010, 02:58 PM
When do the Early Start Ratings come out? I live in NJ. I think they did not come out until Oct./Nov. last year with the year end rankings around the first week of December.

What the heck takes so long?!? :)

Here in Middle states (which inlcudes lower NJ) my understanding is they wait until the monday after the Senior sectionals are played (Either Sept 13 or 27). In this way the dynamic ratings can take into account the intermingling of sections and presumably give a more accurate basis for comparison.

6789
08-24-2010, 06:44 PM
Clearly, the USTA should provide an atmosphere in which everyone wins.

Amen!!

Tennis leagues are SUPPOSED to be about equitable competition, not compensating certain players' underfed egos with a bludgeoning of an accurately rated opponent playing by the NTRP rules.

All the NTRP ratings whiners should CORK it.

They ALL have ONLY the sandbaggers of previous decades to blame, not the USTA. If you feel you are "overrated" (btw, have you ever met someone who felt she or he was UNDERrated?), either get better, get another sport, whatever, but puhleaze quit whining.

Why do I say this? Example A: I _barely_ (4 and 4) beat a (self rated of course) NTRP 3.5 twice in the last seven calendar days, and I've been an NTRP 4.0 since 2007 (when first began NTRP as a self rated player). The opponent I defeated after playing some good tennis was after the match simultaneously complaining about how badly he played AND ALSO whining about "this is only my first season, I've played only five matches, and I don't want to be bumped to 4.0 next year."

Jeez. Grow a pair.

tlm
02-03-2011, 02:52 PM
The usta had to do this because there are so many sandbaggers.

rh310
02-04-2011, 03:21 AM
Obviously, those with winning records are greedy so we need to distribute the wealth and enforce the new USTA administrative ruling that no one can win more than one match in a row.

They're not just greedy, they're clever. If you read the fine print of the USTA rulings, you'll see they've been written to allow those that win a match to start all future matches with the score preset to 6-0, 5-0 40-0. On their serve.

After all, they won once so they must be "winners" whose nature is for them to win everything.

Those clamoring for score distribution are simply saying let's start the score at love-all, and spin for serve.

rainman007
02-05-2011, 05:10 AM
IT DOESN'T TAKE LONG TO GET BUMPED.......

SO MAKE SURE YOU SELF RATE CORRECTLY!!

THIS USTA SYSTEM IS PRETTY GOOD AT PROVIDING COMPETITIVE MATCHES. The higher you go with your team the higher out of rated players you see.. People self rating and sandbagging is the biggest problem with the system not the usta system itself.. I'm sure a National team at 4.0 has 8 high 4.5 to 5.0 players that if where in my local league would be rated anyhow.. A state winner probably has 8 high 4.0 to 4.5 players.. A local team at 4.0 here has high 3.5's to high 4.0's in actual skill level.. How do you get that difference low self rates and major sandbagging... SO, I'd say the reason for only 3 matches is the usta is trying to adjust for dishonest people but thats my guess..
I do think the usta could improve by counting ALL Scores they seem to be headed in the wrong direction.. I know players who couldnt compete at the 4.5 level so they dont play adult, then tank mixed to get back down.. Well, gladly now the usta is dealing with this issue but they are going in the wrong direction that player is not getting an M rating if they played adult in the last 3 years their just not counting the mixed matches either.. The should be counting all matches not fewer thats about the only thing were paying money for is to have ratings where we get even matches and now they are starting a trend to count fewer matches not all of them..

Bedrock
02-07-2011, 12:01 AM
.....................

Alchemy-Z
02-07-2011, 09:19 AM
3.5 is so confusing to me...I play a few 4.0's and they all seem about the same level. as far as serve pace/consistancy

but at 3.5 I play people that are UE Machines! and I hardly have to hit a winner to win a match... the following week I will face some guy that I can't seem to get a single passing shot on.