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Irvin
08-26-2010, 11:39 AM
Do you think there is a difference between the overhand knot, the Wilson knot, the Pro knot, or the Parnell knot? This video will knock your socks off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTiSp6byyAY

Irvin

WildVolley
08-26-2010, 01:00 PM
I use the Parnell knot, because I base my tie-off technique on a video of Parnell showing how he ties off.

I have no idea what a Wilson or Pro knot is. Your video seems to suggest they are only slight variants on the same knot.

I've come to the conclusion that almost any knot will sufficiently tie off most poly string. Some of the poly is so stiff that you could probably pull it through the final grommet, kink it and cut it off, and it wouldn't pull back through.

Irvin
08-26-2010, 01:38 PM
^^ What I was trying to show was all those knots are the same. The overhand knot starts with a half hitch and so does the double half hitch. Most of the double half hitch knots I see are all held by the first half hitch. Therefore, I can see where you are coming from when you say almost any knot will do (for poly or any other string.) Wikipedia.org says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhand_knot), "The overhand knot is one of the most fundamental knots... The overhand knot is very secure, to the point of jamming badly. It should be used if the knot is intended to be permanent."

Irvin

WildVolley
08-26-2010, 06:34 PM
^^ What I was trying to show was all those knots are the same. The overhand knot starts with a half hitch and so does the double half hitch. Most of the double half hitch knots I see are all held by the first half hitch. Therefore, I can see where you are coming from when you say almost any knot will do (for poly or any other string.) Wikipedia.org says (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overhand_knot), "The overhand knot is one of the most fundamental knots... The overhand knot is very secure, to the point of jamming badly. It should be used if the knot is intended to be permanent."

Irvin

I saw your video and it certainly seems all three are the same knot (overhand knot), but there does seem to be a slight difference as to where the tail end goes in relationship to the grommet and frame.

Parnell pulls on the first half half-hitch when taking slack out of string and then cinches the knot down all the way by pulling the tail end tight. Can you still do that easily with the Wilson knot and the Pro knot?

I think pulling out the slack the way Parnell does is risky if you are dealing with gut or other string that isn't very tough, so I don't tend to use the Parnell (overhand) when stringing gut or synthetic gut.

Irvin
08-26-2010, 06:48 PM
^^ I completely agree with you. All are the same knot there is no doubt about it. For the Wilson or Pro knot the tail is above the string you are tying off on while on the Parnell knot the tail is below the string you are typing off on. For all these knots when you cinch them up you pull the loop down the string and then while keeping tension on the half hitch you roll it back up. Then you pull the tail up to keep it tight and up against the frame.

The problem with the overhand knot when you tighten it up is that it is too good of a knot and you don't want to tighten it up 1/2 inch away from the grommet. So you have to tighten it up in two separate pulls. In tennis stringing terms we call that tightening two-step process the loop and the tail.

Irvin

Irvin
08-26-2010, 06:58 PM
Following that process a little further today I was playing aroung with different knots. I found the bowline knot and tied it just to see if it would be useful. Wow did I get a surprise it tied up like a Parnell.

Seems like the biggest difference on a lot of knots is not really how to tie it but how you tighten it. I have seen some videos on how to tie a Parnell knot but none of them is the simple way.

Irvin

drakulie
08-26-2010, 07:01 PM
Interesting video.

However, this is not how I complete what is referred to as the Parnell Knot.

It is however, what is referred to as a Wilson/Pro Knot, which I was taught to call a one and a half hitch.

Irvin
08-26-2010, 07:04 PM
^^ I did not complete the knot I just showed you what the knot really is. Like I said earlier I think the tail on the Wilson Pro knot is above the tie off string while on the Parnell knot it is below it.

Irvin

drakulie
08-26-2010, 07:08 PM
^^Yeah, I saw that, but when I complete a Parnell, the "tail" loops around both the loop string and base string. In the video you provide (overhand knot), you only loop the tail on the loop, not both. Hard to desribe so you get a mental picture of what I'm talking about.

<<<PS: I'm getting an Ice Cream Headache with all these different names>>>> :)

Irvin
08-27-2010, 04:15 AM
^^ Watch that video again, @ 13 seconds I loop the tail under the base string.

Irvin

drakulie
08-27-2010, 06:58 AM
^^^Then that wouldn't be the way I complete what is referred to as a pro/wilson/one and a half hitch knot.

I do not complete the Wilson/Pro/One and a Half, the same as a Parnell.

But anyway, it is a very interesting video on the "different knots" and how they are primarily the same.

drakulie
08-27-2010, 08:11 AM
^^Irvin, if you go to the end of this video, I demonstrate how I complete a Pro/Wilson/One and a Half knot.

For the Parnell, I go back under the anchor string a second time, and then bring it up thru the loop, which I don't do in this knot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDwAnjSYcxQ

the end result is that the knot is not as thick as the parnell, and works much better in tighter spaces (especially for racquets such as Babolats where the cross and main are very close to the frame).

Irvin
08-27-2010, 08:34 AM
^^ From what I see you tie the Wilson Pro knot the same and I do and from what you are saying you tie the Parnell knot the same as I do. There is no difference. Where the difference come in is you use cam action pliers to tighten and hold your string. I pull the loop down the anchor string then I roll the loop back up to tighten the half hitch. This does the same thing you did pulling on the string with the cam action pliers and putting your awl in the grommet hole. Then we both pull the tail back up and against the frame.

I really like the way you tighten the tie off string with the clamp but I am not too sure about putting the awl in there. I do not like using an awl once I starting stringing. I am not too sure how much good the slippery awl is holding tension anyway.

Playing with these knots I have come up with a new starting knot. I need to do some experimenting and if it works out I will share it.

Irvin

drakulie
08-27-2010, 09:06 AM
^^Yeah, I don't advocate using the "awl method", because it is a very old procedure that was mostly used with wood frames to hold down the tension of the string one just pulled with the cam action.

However, a lot of poster kept asking me about this procedure, and doing the video was easier than explaining it.

They also kept asking how to use the cam action.

uk_skippy
08-31-2010, 08:55 AM
I generally use the Parnell knot, but I do use the Pro knot where the space to tie-off is small.

Regards

Irvin
08-31-2010, 10:22 AM
^^ Yes even though the two knots are effectively the same knot because that tail goes under the anchor string it does make a knot a little bulkier.

Irvin

drakulie
08-31-2010, 11:00 AM
^^The manner in which I complete a Pro knot/Wilson/One and a half, does not have the tail go under the anchor string, rather goes directly thru the loop.

I the Parnell, the tail does go under the anchor string, and then into the loop.

I think this is where we are getting mixed up.

Irvin
08-31-2010, 11:18 AM
I beg you pardon? We are getting mixed up? LOL Sorry I had to say that. We are saying the same thing.

Here is a Wilson Pro knot:
http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp304/Irvin44_2008/HPIM3040.jpg
Notice how the tail (which goes to the right) goes over the anchor string?

Here is a Parnel knot:
http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp304/Irvin44_2008/HPIM3041.jpg
Notice how the tail (which goes to the right) goes under the anchor string?

Irvin

drakulie
08-31-2010, 11:22 AM
^^^I'll do a video tonight showing you how I do both.

Again, the manner in which I do a parnell, and wilson/pro/one and a half ,,,,,,,, are not the same, and result in different knots. One is bulkier than the other. One has the tail go under and wrap around the anchor string, the other does not.

Irvin
08-31-2010, 11:33 AM
^^ You are 100% correct. I still agree with you. We have not disagreed yet. You just think we do. I think the problem is these two knots. It is sort of like the same thing only different. Like I said an overhand knot by any other name is still an overhand knot.

Irvin

topanlego
09-01-2010, 04:50 PM
I think both your knots are similar but not the same as the Parnell knot as I learned it from YuLitle's video. The only difference between the 2 pictures is going over or under the anchor string, in both, the tail finishes pointing across the anchor string.

The "Parnell" know in YuLitle's video shows the tail finishes point back towards the starting side. This knot is the 2 half hitch but with the tail going through the first loop after doing the second O-U-T.

Or you can look at it this way. It's the same as the Pro Knot going over the anchor but you wrap the tail back under the anchor.

http://a.imageshack.us/img706/9171/parnell.jpg

Irvin
09-01-2010, 05:52 PM
I am assuming your anchor string is the top string that goes from left to right and the string you are tying off is the bottom string that comes in from the left. Please correct me if I am wrong.

So you went over under through (for you half hitch) then you went over through and under. How is that like what YULitle said in his video? YULitle said, "you go over under through and then just like the double half hitch you want to pull it tight but not before you go (over) under and through again."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUFjDax7xK4

And this knot is easy?

Irvin

onehandbh
09-02-2010, 09:53 AM
which knot is best for minimizing tension loss from the
last pull?

in other words, which knot is easiest to reduce the slack and
pull tight (especially for a stiff string like poly)

drakulie
09-02-2010, 10:26 AM
^^ You are 100% correct. I still agree with you. We have not disagreed yet. You just think we do. I think the problem is these two knots. It is sort of like the same thing only different. Like I said an overhand knot by any other name is still an overhand knot.

Irvin


Sorry, I hadn't responded yet. Been busy, and wasn't able to do the vid. But I am aware that we don't disagree. I have not disagreed with your conclusion. As you just said, "same thing only different". What makes it different is where the tails goes thru in the knot and looping around the anchor string in the parnell, vs the others. If one takes the anchor string out of the equation, the knot is exactly the same in the 3.

Irvin
09-02-2010, 11:12 AM
^^ Glad to see we agree that you and I are so agreeable. LOL I could not agree with you more. Actually the two knots are the same it is just where and how the anchor string goes through the knot that makes a difference.

'onehandbh' as for which knot is the best for minimixing tension loss. If there is no difference in the knot what makes you think either will give you less tension loss. I will agree that the Parnell knot is bulkier but I don't think it holds any better. The one that works the best in your application and or is easier for you to tie is the best knot. If you have a large grommet hole and or you have a thin string go with the Parnell.

Irvin

topanlego
09-02-2010, 11:21 AM
I am assuming your anchor string is the top string that goes from left to right and the string you are tying off is the bottom string that comes in from the left. Please correct me if I am wrong.

So you went over under through (for you half hitch) then you went over through and under. How is that like what YULitle said in his video? YULitle said, "you go over under through and then just like the double half hitch you want to pull it tight but not before you go (over) under and through again."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUFjDax7xK4

And this knot is easy?

Irvin

No.. you go over under through and over under and through again through the loop of the first half hitch. It looks like you go over through and under but it's the same. As Drakulie said, the knots are the same except for where the tail goes: over or under or around the anchor.

When the knots are loose, they look very similar. When cinched up, they have very different appearances. With the knot I know as the Parnell, the tail is pulled flush against the frame as the tail is pulled through the first half hitch loop and come out back towards the frame with no string in between . In both other versions of the Pro/Wilson knot, the tail is close to the frame but not tight against it there is a string between the frame and the tail. With a regular 2 half hitch knot, the tail is the farthest from the frame as there are 2 strings between the tail and the frame.

Irvin
09-02-2010, 11:37 AM
No.. you go over under through and over under and through again through the loop of the first half hitch...

Yes.. but you went over, under, through, and over, through, under, and through again. Some how that does not seem the same.

Irvin

Power Player
09-02-2010, 11:53 AM
Oh man..I am confused now. The Parnell knot is not Over- Under- Through-Under-Through?

I tied off some poly like that last night and it looked good.

Should I instead go Over-Under-Through-Over-Under-Through?

jim e
09-02-2010, 12:34 PM
Oh man..I am confused now. The Parnell knot is not Over- Under- Through-Under-Through?

I tied off some poly like that last night and it looked good.

Should I instead go Over-Under-Through-Over-Under-Through?

If you want the so called Parnell knot it is over under through, and over under through. Just watch YULitles video, as he shows that one the way it is nice.I have used that knot since the 60's.
For the OP question the best tie off is a knot that holds well, irregardless of the one used.

Irvin
09-02-2010, 01:07 PM
^^ I agree with you 'jim e' but that knot that 'topanlego' posted of picture of is not a Parnell knot. Wow did I open up a can of worms.

Irvin

athiker
09-02-2010, 01:22 PM
Once I saw the Pro Knot (Drak's video I think), and tried it, its all I use now for tie-offs. For me, even though it is similar to the Parnell, I found it easier to pull tight and keep tension loss minimal. Plus being pretty new to stringing, I found it just plain easier to remember!

What I'm getting from Irvin's comments is that really the initial half hitch or overhand is what keeps the string from sliding back through the grommet hole...what you do with the tail after that is just kind of tucking it away somewhere so no string slips in the first half hitch...and it doesn't take much to keep this from happening so any knot "ending" so-to-speak with the tail will usually work fine. Is that the gist?

topanlego
09-02-2010, 01:22 PM
^^ I agree with you 'jim e' but that knot that 'topanlego' posted of picture of is not a Parnell knot. Wow did I open up a can of worms.

Irvin

It is. when the knot is loose that's how it looks depending on how big or small or where the string overlaps. Imagine the tail in the picture pulled towards the right, it will have gone over under and through the first half hitch.

topanlego
09-02-2010, 01:26 PM
Once I saw the Pro Knot (Drak's video I think), and tried it, its all I use now for tie-offs. For me, even though it is similar to the Parnell, I found it easier to pull tight and keep tension loss minimal. Plus being pretty new to stringing, I found it just plain easier to remember!

What I'm getting from Irvin's comments is that really the initial half hitch or overhand is what keeps the string from sliding back through the grommet hole...what you do with the tail after that is just kind of tucking it away somewhere so no string slips in the first half hitch...and it doesn't take much to keep this from happening so any knot "ending" so-to-speak with the tail will usually work fine. Is that the gist?

I think so. All knots hold just as well. However, the "Parnell" knot allows the tail to be right against the frame and the 2 hoops are stacked neatly so it just looks better. It's an appearance thing.

Irvin
09-02-2010, 01:55 PM
It is. when the knot is loose that's how it looks depending on how big or small or where the string overlaps. Imagine the tail in the picture pulled towards the right, it will have gone over under and through the first half hitch.

Watch the 'YULitle' video again. After tying his half hitch he goes under the anchor string (where you go over) and the tail comes up through the loop. Your knot then goes through a loop, under the anchor string, and up through another loop. If this knot works for you great, but it is not the Parnell knot.

Irvin

topanlego
09-02-2010, 05:22 PM
Watch the 'YULitle' video again. After tying his half hitch he goes under the anchor string (where you go over) and the tail comes up through the loop. Your knot then goes through a loop, under the anchor string, and up through another loop. If this knot works for you great, but it is not the Parnell knot.

Irvin

What I have there is exactly how YuLitle does in his video.

YuLitle's video says start with a single hitch over Under Through. Then before you cinch up, you go [Over] Under and Through the same hole you went through on the first time.

That's what I have done. He doesn't say 'Over' again but you can clearly see he goes back OVER under and through. In essence it is a two half hitch but the tail comes up through the first hitch, not between the two.

Here's an illustration between the 2 photos you posted and my knot:

http://a.imageshack.us/img827/8368/knotright.gif

And flipped:
http://a.imageshack.us/img820/1904/knotleft.gif

Applesauceman
09-02-2010, 05:28 PM
I'm surprised that you didn't add the double half hitch option too. I use that I all of my finishing knots.

Irvin
09-03-2010, 05:01 AM
'topangelo' I am empressed that is a very good illistration of knots. If you take 'YULitle's' Parnell knot and pull the string that came in from the grommet up what do you have? I have done it for you in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wlSLBRnk1Y

Like 'drakulie' and I have been saying it is all in how you tighten it. But there is another small problem with the Parnell knot. If you come up the second time on the wrong side of the first looped string you don't have the right knot.

Which one of the diagrams you drew represents the picture you posted? It looks to me like you just tied a Wilson knot and as an after thought stuck the tail under the anchor string.

Irvin

Irvin
09-03-2010, 06:45 AM
I'm surprised that you didn't add the double half hitch option too. I use that I all of my finishing knots.

There is nothing wrong with that, if the double half hitch is tied properly. The problem with the double half hitch is that most people don't tie it properly and you end up with a half hitch and a loop.

The overhand knot on the other hand is (IMHO) a better tie off knot. Sailors and climbers consider the overhand knot to be a usless knot because it jams. That means when you put the knot under pressure it is almost impossible to get out of your rope. It jams so badly that the sailors and climbers sometimes had to throw their ropes away.

For a tie off knot in the tennis application a knot that jams is just what you want. You don't want a semipermanent knot you want a strong knot that will jam. The problem is the overhand knot is a weak knot but until someone comes along with something better it will do.

99% of the pressure is on the first half hitch of double half hitch, therefore, it is difficult to get the complete knot to jam.

Irvin

jmnk
09-03-2010, 10:26 AM
with all due respect to other more experienced stringers I'm with topanlego on this topic. His picture in post #21 is the Parnell Knot - at least as per YuLitle video. It is also consistent with the description here:
http://www.keohi.com/tennis/misc/knots.htm#Pro Knot / Richard Parnell Knot / Half Hitch Knot with a Tail
This is illustrated in his drawings (post #35) - the two rightmost drawings.
As far as OP's video - it seems that is not a Parnell Knot after all. Which would mean that Parnell knot is not just an overhand knot.

Irvin
09-03-2010, 11:17 AM
OK I have to admit that 'topanlego's' picture is the Parnell knot if you slide that tail up away from the grommet hole towards the knot. I do not use the Parnell knot very much but when I do use it I tie it from above the grommet hole as an overhand knot. Below is what I think we all agree is the Parnell knot the pencil would represent the anchor string with the point pointing towards the grommet hole.

http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp304/Irvin44_2008/HPIM3042.jpg

In that picture the string that is being tied off is coming up from the bottom left between the tail and the pencil. If you were to take that string and move it up here is what you would have:

http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp304/Irvin44_2008/HPIM3043.jpg

If that knot is not an overhand knot what kind of knot would you say it is? When I tighten this knot the loop is the top loop as you are looking at it and the tail is going down to the left.

Irvin

struggle
09-03-2010, 11:27 AM
^^^^Irvin,

yep. but it is an entirely different direction of pull on the knot when you do that (also no grommet as a stopper), changing the characteristics of the holding power of the knot. but still, essentially (exactly) the same "knot".

as a former sailor and climber, yes knots used in those disciplines are rarely meant to be permanent. this is a different animal.

Irvin
09-03-2010, 11:35 AM
^^ When I use the Parnell knot I do not tighten as you see it. I first tighten the half hitch (just as "YULitle" does) then I pull the tail through snug. When I first started trying to use the Parnell I found that I would sometimes go through the wrong loop at the end and ended up with knot that looked funny. Problem was how I was tying it. So I started tying it from above and solved the problem. If there is no overhand knot it is not right. Look at 'topanlego' knot, if you look at it you will see the overhand knot.

I bet if you follow this thread to the end you will understand these knots.

Irvin

struggle
09-03-2010, 11:41 AM
i understand fully. direction of pull is key in making these overhand knots work.
yes, they are overhand knots.

good stuff.

jmnk
09-03-2010, 11:42 AM
OK I have to admit that 'topanlego's' picture is the Parnell knot if you slide that tail up away from the grommet hole towards the knot. I do not use the Parnell knot very much but when I do use it I tie it from above the grommet hole as an overhand knot. Below is what I think we all agree is the Parnell knot the pencil would represent the anchor string with the point pointing towards the grommet hole.

http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp304/Irvin44_2008/HPIM3042.jpg

In that picture the string that is being tied off is coming up from the bottom left between the tail and the pencil. If you were to take that string and move it up here is what you would have:

http://i422.photobucket.com/albums/pp304/Irvin44_2008/HPIM3043.jpg

If that knot is not an overhand knot what kind of knot would you say it is? When I tighten this knot the loop is the top loop as you are looking at it and the tail is going down to the left.

Irvin

OMG - yes indeed, the Parnell Knot is the overhand knot --if-- you pull the tail certain way. In other words Parnell Knot is the overhand knot + particular way of weaving of the tail. Perhaps the main practical difference is that with Parnell you can cinch the knot. If you wanted to tie overhand knot only (without looping the tail that certain way) it would be very difficult to cinch the knot against the frame -- even if you wanted to loop the tail later.
But now I think Irvin is right after all - these knots do stem from the overhand knot.

topanlego
09-03-2010, 11:48 AM
I believe your perspective is flawed.

In the 2nd picture the knot would be Over-Under-Over-Under-Through as the string being tied off is coming from the top now. Also, since there is no half hitch, it would be very hard to cinch it up. Rocking motion is impossible on this knot as the tail goes around instead of through.

If you tighten the 2nd knot, the tail is gong down to left. But if you do that in the racquet, it would point into the string bed.

Irvin
09-03-2010, 11:48 AM
^^ Thanks. I think most of the confusion stems from the video I made in the first post. Actually I am tying the Parnell upside down in that video. Sorry about that.

Irvin

Irvin
09-03-2010, 11:51 AM
I believe your perspective is flawed.

In the 2nd picture the knot would be Over-Under-Over-Under-Through as the string being tied off is coming from the top now.

If you tighten the 2nd knot, the tail is gong down to left. But if you do that in the racquet, it would point into the string bed.

Sorry I missed this post at first. The two pictures are of the same knot. If one is right they are both right. The pencil is pointing towards the grommet so the tail is pointing to the frame. We are not going to start talking about starting knots are we? LOL

Also I can move the string up so you see the overhand knot but that string coming in from the top is actually just a big loop and would have came out of the grommet hole.

Irvin

struggle
09-03-2010, 11:54 AM
nope, there is no figure 8 there.

topanlego
09-03-2010, 12:03 PM
OMG - yes indeed, the Parnell Knot is the overhand knot --if-- you pull the tail certain way. In other words Parnell Knot is the overhand knot + particular way of weaving of the tail. Perhaps the main practical difference is that with Parnell you can cinch the knot. If you wanted to tie overhand knot only (without looping the tail that certain way) it would be very difficult to cinch the knot against the frame -- even if you wanted to loop the tail later.
But now I think Irvin is right after all - these knots do stem from the overhand knot.

No. The Parnell knot becomes a overhand knot if the knot was rearranged with tails were at opposite end of the knot which is not the case when tying off on a racquet. If you did that, you would end up with an overhand knot that would be impossible to cinch up.

A Basic half hitch/2 half hitch are non-binding knots where as an overhand knot is a binding knot. Meaning if you removed the anchor string, the knot would fall apart.

I guess you can say there are 2 types of tieoff knots: Binding and Non-Binding.

topanlego
09-03-2010, 12:05 PM
Sorry I missed this post at first. The two pictures are of the same knot. If one is right they are both right. The pencil is pointing towards the grommet so the tail is pointing to the frame. We are not going to start talking about starting knots are we? LOL

Also I can move the string up so you see the overhand knot but that string coming in from the top is actually just a big loop and would have came out of the grommet hole.

Irvin

But in your 2nd picture, where is the tail? the ends point in opposite directions so really, it's a different knot no?

topanlego
09-03-2010, 12:05 PM
nope, there is no figure 8 there.

sorry. I edited my post before you posted.

struggle
09-03-2010, 12:08 PM
seems to me a parnell is a double half hitch EXCEPT that the tail comes through the whole knot (1st half hitch), not just the 2nd half hitch.

topanlego
09-03-2010, 12:15 PM
seems to me a parnell is a double half hitch EXCEPT that the tail comes through the whole knot (1st half hitch), not just the 2nd half hitch.

That's what I said. If rearranged, it become an overhand knot.

Irvin
09-03-2010, 02:03 PM
But in your 2nd picture, where is the tail? the ends point in opposite directions so really, it's a different knot no?

Both knots are the same knot I never moved the tail it point down and to the left towards the frame all the time. This is not two knots tied two ways it is the same knot. I tied only one knot and moved the string that was between the tail and anchor up.

Irvin

struggle
09-03-2010, 04:38 PM
i'll never find a sailing or climbing partner here. but good stuff on tying knots.

topanlego
09-03-2010, 05:37 PM
Both knots are the same knot I never moved the tail it point down and to the left towards the frame all the time. This is not two knots tied two ways it is the same knot. I tied only one knot and moved the string that was between the tail and anchor up.

Irvin

I guess you misunderstood me. I agree an overhand knot may result if you adjust where the ends of the strings are, however, when applied to a tieoff, you do not get an overhand knot because of the orientation of the 2 ends of the knots. Once you cinch up the knot with a Parnell as the tail points back towards the feeder string whereas an overhand knot has the tail point away.

On a side note, an overhand knot is known as a stopper knot used at end of ropes to create stoppers. What we use for tie-offs are hitches as we are attaching a string to a fixed object (the anchor string). They are related knots but not the same.

In fact, what we call the half hitch really should be called a single hitch. Also the double half hitch is a clove hitch.

Irvin
09-04-2010, 03:44 AM
I guess you misunderstood me. I agree an overhand knot may result if you adjust where the ends of the strings are, however, when applied to a tieoff, you do not get an overhand knot because of the orientation of the 2 ends of the knots. Once you cinch up the knot with a Parnell as the tail points back towards the feeder string whereas an overhand knot has the tail point away...

That is where we disagee 'topanlego,' I think no matter how you finagle the two ends after the knot is tied it does not change the knot itself.

Irvin

jmnk
09-04-2010, 07:58 PM
I just had to see it for myself so I tried both knots taking pictures. With strings in the actual frame.
first pic shows just regular half hitch.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_N1ZT5k4ZMgM/TIMErr9iq9I/AAAAAAAAAzA/WJeb8gynPMU/s144/P1170293.JPG
in the second and third one I just made overhand knot out of it
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_N1ZT5k4ZMgM/TIMHrq0eC_I/AAAAAAAAAzY/cy2ZlLlFhIY/s400/P1170298.JPG
in the fourth one, before tightening the knot, I've looped the tail certain way. It doesn't look like much of anything...
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_N1ZT5k4ZMgM/TIMEsZqkt8I/AAAAAAAAAzM/ErGz9hdUlBs/s400/P1170300.JPG
until you tighten it a bit - as illustrated in the fifth pic. You get a really perfectly fine Parnell Knot. Not sure if it would end up that nicely with a rope, but with a tennis string when you tighten just a bit all loops naturally fall into place making it a Parnell.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_N1ZT5k4ZMgM/TIMEsq_FXzI/AAAAAAAAAzQ/AGmtL5wnLB8/s400/P1170301.JPG
So to me I think of it as 'Parnell is an overhand knot with specific way of weaving the tail'. Topanlego and perhaps others prefer to think of it as 'When you adjust tail in Parnell you end up with Overhand knot'. But the pictures show that in a regular racket string position you can tie Overhand, loop the tail, and end up with Parnell.
Either way - this is quite interesting.

Irvin
09-05-2010, 03:56 AM
^^ 'jmnk' those third and fourth pictures are never going to be Parnell knots you have your overhand knot upside down. They are Wilson Pro knots and the fourth one has the tail tucked up unde the knot. The tie off string must come in from the top and the tail should go towards the frame. If you take your fifth picture and pull the small loop up (toward the head of the frame) and turn the tail down towards the frame you will have your overhand knot.

Irvin

jmnk
09-05-2010, 10:08 AM
^^ 'jmnk' those third and fourth pictures are never going to be Parnell knots you have your overhand knot upside down. They are Wilson Pro knots and the fourth one has the tail tucked up unde the knot. The tie off string must come in from the top and the tail should go towards the frame. If you take your fifth picture and pull the small loop up (toward the head of the frame) and turn the tail down towards the frame you will have your overhand knot.

Irvin
hmm, not sure if I understand. Just so we are all on the same page - the anchor string is the one going straight up in all the pictures, the other is the tail, although I've left it too long and you can't see the end of it.
The entire sequence is step by step, with no tricks in between so I'm not sure what you mean by 'those third and fourth pictures are never going to be Parnell knots'. The third pic shows an overhand knot, right? In the the fourth I've just looped the tail (it is the tail, just a really long one). And in the fifth I've just pulled the knot a bit (by a tail) and the whole thing turned into Parnell.
When you say 'The tie off string must come in from the top and the tail should go towards the frame.' - it is exactly what the pictures show, the tail ended up going from the top toward the frame. The fifth picture is a Parnell Knot, isn't it?
Could you elaborate?

Irvin
09-05-2010, 11:28 AM
^^ If you say so I believe you, but I can't see how you got from#2 to #4 and from #4 to #5.

Irvin

Ash_Smith
09-05-2010, 11:51 AM
^^^Yep, there seems to be a jump somewhere between frames where the knot changes! Would you be able to do this as a video to show all the steps?

Ash

jmnk
09-05-2010, 12:02 PM
^^ If you say so I believe you, but I can't see how you got from#2 to #4 and from #4 to #5.

Irvin
I couldn't believe it either so I've actually tried myself. I was inspired by your initial video where you've noticed that Parnell is really based on overhand knot. So after couple of tries and figgling with strings it turned out that you indeed can get Parnell from overhand knot.

jmnk
09-05-2010, 08:54 PM
^^^Yep, there seems to be a jump somewhere between frames where the knot changes! Would you be able to do this as a video to show all the steps?

Ash
I'll try. But there really wasn't any jump. Just try for yourself, but with a string not a rope, so the stiffness will make all the loops just fall in place.

topanlego
09-07-2010, 10:55 AM
I'll try. But there really wasn't any jump. Just try for yourself, but with a string not a rope, so the stiffness will make all the loops just fall in place.

Like I mentioned before. The knot looks different depending on how the strings are overlapped. Each knot can look very different at any point before it is cinched up but once cinched up, that's when you can tell the difference. The 2 knots that Irvin first showed pictures and the parnell knot will create 3 different cinched up knots and will all look different.

What jmnk did there in the 5 pictures is exactly a parnell knot. It seems impossible but it's just the way the strings are overlapped. If you take the large loop in the 4th picture and push it back through the small loop, it becomes the 5th picture. It just doesn't look that way. Follow the string path carefully and you'll see.

Also, like I said before, they knots are related and but depending on the use of the knot, they are called different things. An overhand knot is used for creating stoppers at the end of a string/rope. They are not tied to anything except for itself. What we are doing is tying hitch knots as we are fixing one string/rope to a fixed object: the anchor string.

jmnk
09-09-2010, 09:06 PM
Like I mentioned before. The knot looks different depending on how the strings are overlapped. Each knot can look very different at any point before it is cinched up but once cinched up, that's when you can tell the difference. The 2 knots that Irvin first showed pictures and the parnell knot will create 3 different cinched up knots and will all look different.

What jmnk did there in the 5 pictures is exactly a parnell knot. It seems impossible but it's just the way the strings are overlapped. If you take the large loop in the 4th picture and push it back through the small loop, it becomes the 5th picture. It just doesn't look that way. Follow the string path carefully and you'll see.

Also, like I said before, they knots are related and but depending on the use of the knot, they are called different things. An overhand knot is used for creating stoppers at the end of a string/rope. They are not tied to anything except for itself. What we are doing is tying hitch knots as we are fixing one string/rope to a fixed object: the anchor string.
^^yap, thanks for explaining even better. i was just fascinated by OP video. By no means I wanted to say that overhand knot and Parnell are the same - just that you could start with overhand and end up with Parnell. Not that it makes anything any easier or better or faster, it's just kind of unexpected.

pvaudio
09-09-2010, 10:26 PM
I use the Wilson knot for everything now that I start crosses with a starting clamp (used to use a knot, but it looks more professional to have four identical knots). I personally think it looks nicer than the parnell since if you're doing mains in particular, the tails point in exactly the opposite direction at the exact same angle which just looks cool.

Irvin
09-10-2010, 04:44 AM
^^ I do the same most of the time

Irvin

pvaudio
09-10-2010, 10:06 AM
^^ I do the same most of the time because you taught me the Wilson knot via your videos :D

fgzhu88
09-11-2010, 09:07 PM
Here's an illustration between the 2 photos you posted and my knot:

http://a.imageshack.us/img827/8368/knotright.gif


you have no idea how useful this diagram is. I've always had trouble visualizing knots even if I'm watching that tub video from YuLitle right as i'm tying off.

To add to the discussion, what do you all think of the PC knot as demonstrated by YuLitle? It looks like to me (I'm probably wrong) a wilson pro knot with an extra loop in the end.

Irvin
09-12-2010, 03:50 AM
...
To add to the discussion, what do you all think of the PC knot as demonstrated by YuLitle? It looks like to me (I'm probably wrong) a wilson pro knot with an extra loop in the end.

Good observation I have been saying that all along but most people don't see it. The Wilson knot is an overhand knot where the tail goes up the anchor string when you tie it but it goes toward the racket when it is tightened. The Parnell knot is an overhand knot where the tail goes under the anchor string and towards the frame when you tie it.

Irvin

matchpoint7
10-13-2010, 09:54 PM
Some of the poly is so stiff that you could probably pull it through the final grommet, kink it and cut it off, and it wouldn't pull back through.

Well said!

lionel_101
10-18-2010, 05:02 PM
you have no idea how useful this diagram is. I've always had trouble visualizing knots even if I'm watching that tub video from YuLitle right as i'm tying off.

To add to the discussion, what do you all think of the PC knot as demonstrated by YuLitle? It looks like to me (I'm probably wrong) a wilson pro knot with an extra loop in the end.

Just wanted to say thanks to the person who posted the detailed pictures of the tie off knots.

I tried to do the parnell knot, I saw on some site, but it never felt right, so I just stuck using a double half hitch. I tried the first one in your picture (Pro Knot) and it worked great. The tail ends up on the frame. I am going to try the others on some left over string and see if I like them even better.

jim e
10-18-2010, 05:09 PM
Just wanted to say thanks to the person who posted the detailed pictures of the tie off knots.

I tried to do the parnell knot, I saw on some site, but it never felt right, so I just stuck using a double half hitch. I tried the first one in your picture (Pro Knot) and it worked great. The tail ends up on the frame. I am going to try the others on some left over string and see if I like them even better.

lionel. The double half hitch does indeed work.
The parnell knot is a very easy knot to cinch up tight, even if you just use your fingers.
The tail of the Parnell also rests against the frame nice.
You may want to see this video that YULitle shows tying the Parnell, as he shows it very nice and easy to follow.

Kevo
10-18-2010, 06:39 PM
The Parnell knot is an overhand knot where the tail goes under the anchor string and towards the frame when you tie it.

Irvin

After thinking about this some more, since this thread has been bumped, I think you are technically right. However, the lay of the knot when it's on the anchor string is closer to two half hitches where the tail on the second loop goes through the first loop instead of the second like normal.

There should be more threads on knots. Knots are fun. :-)

lionel_101
10-19-2010, 09:30 AM
lionel. The double half hitch does indeed work.
The parnell knot is a very easy knot to cinch up tight, even if you just use your fingers.
The tail of the Parnell also rests against the frame nice.
You may want to see this video that YULitle shows tying the Parnell, as he shows it very nice and easy to follow.

I setup a old used PK racquetball racquet to practice tying all of the 3 knots. I probably tried each one about 25 tiimes. I remembered that I had troubles when the anchor and string being tied were reversed. I just flipped my racquet over and did each knot 25 times again. I didn't pull the knots tight, but just enough to see how they would look and then undid them to try again.

I really like how they look when done correctly...LOL

Like some one stated eariler, it was hard for me to do when watching a video and even a diagram without the numbers.

It seems I am all set to tie good knots now and will keep my practice knot tying racquet available should I forget.

blkkirk
07-10-2011, 03:27 AM
Great old discussion on knots. As a new stringer I have found that tying the parnel knot is easy for me when the end string is on the right of the string for tie off. When it is on the left and I have to do the knot from the other side it messes with my head.

I will keep playing with this to make sure I am tying the knot I think I am on both sides of the string. I don't think I am all of the time.

GlenK
07-10-2011, 04:34 AM
I am now a pro knot guy. Use starting clamp so all my knots are pro knots. Love that look and consistency.

Irvin
07-10-2011, 04:56 AM
Very few people ever realized that the pro knot and the parnell knots are both overhand knots. The only difference between the two is how the anchor string goes through the knot.

Irvin

Irvin
07-10-2011, 05:25 AM
I am now a pro knot guy. Use starting clamp so all my knots are pro knots. Love that look and consistency.

I used to do that up until recently. I don't like pulling tension against a single clamp though with no tension on the other side. There is always a chance the string could slip and damage the string even though starting clamp work extremely well in this scenario. I recently came up with another starting knot that I like and it looks very similar to the pro knot so I have been using it.

When stringing gut or any other delicate string I never use a starting knot. I still use a starting clamp to start my crosses but I start the crosses on the second and third cross (or farther down the racket) and work up to the top cross like I start my mains using the Yusuki (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=322434) method.

Irvin

GlenK
07-10-2011, 05:50 AM
^^When I click on the link in that thread it states, that page does not exist.

GlenK
07-10-2011, 06:09 AM
This is the pro knot I use and really like it. No slipping, it's consistent, and looks great. Tail lays nicely on the frame for every knot.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Mr10sStringer#p/a/u/0/mGQW_ONBPPo

Arthuro
07-10-2011, 06:19 AM
I only string with parnell knots, but always use bulky knots for starting crosses.

blkkirk
07-10-2011, 06:48 AM
Irvin can you describe the change or modification you are making to the knot you are tying to tie off the crosses?

Irvin
07-10-2011, 08:22 AM
^^When I click on the link in that thread it states, that page does not exist.

Yes links on rackettech don't stay long. I described the method here:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5822413#post5822413

Irvin

GlenK
07-10-2011, 08:33 AM
^^Gottcha.. I see what you're talking about.

blkkirk
07-10-2011, 03:36 PM
Thanks Irvin.

robow7
07-11-2011, 09:45 AM
Kind of along the same lines as your first video but I think it's easier to see, Parnell vs. overhand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wlSLBRnk1Y&NR=1

whomad15
07-11-2011, 10:53 PM
Only knot I really know is the 8-knot from sailing, fantastic knot because it will never come undone under pressure, and it's super simple/quick to tie. Still waiting to get my stringer and learn all these fun things.

Irvin
07-12-2011, 04:08 AM
Only knot I really know is the 8-knot from sailing, fantastic knot because it will never come undone under pressure, and it's super simple/quick to tie. Still waiting to get my stringer and learn all these fun things.

If you are talking about the Figure 8 (http://www.thepirateking.com/knots/knot_figure8.htm) knot I don't believe it is as good and the Pro knot or Parnell knot for a couple of reasons. 1 - The tail of the figure 8 will protrude down the anchor string. 2 - The figure 8 is not as easy to cinch up as the pro knot or Parnell knot. When tying off a tennis string you should be able to remove as much slack as possible between the knot and the clamp and the knot much have the ability to hold tension between the knot and the clamp.

If you are talking about some other knot I would love to hear about it.

Irvin