a new topspin shot (at least for me)

[tom-selleck]

was watching nadal and wondering how he hits that inside out forehand from way up in the court (often takes it on the fly too).... so i start fooling around and i'm very curious about spin..

so i got to a point where i would have the racquet fairly closed (or maybe beyond closed). but basically racquet face to partially facing to ground and i come over top of ball viciously. the ball either goes over net and dips very sharply or hits the net (but usually fairly high up giving me confidence i can improve it with practice).

i've never seen this stroke mentioned. i'm thinking it's a good shot when you get a short ball (cause it's often hard to keep the ball in when you hammer a short ball).

in review, i was just wondering if other players do this shot (racquet face moderately to major facing the ground and rip over top of the ball).... i do think it might be what roddick does when he hits his forehand on a short ball... never seen any tennis instruction suggestion having the racquet very closed....

note: i might not know my terminology... i always assumed closed racquet face meant perpindicular to court surface. maybe that wrong though. maybe that's square racquet face.

any thoughts???

[Grimjack]

note: i might not know my terminology... i always assumed closed racquet face meant perpindicular to court surface. maybe that wrong though. maybe that's square racquet face.

any thoughts???

A racquet face is completely closed when the top of the racquet face has rotated so far forward that the face is now parallel to the court surface. But any forward rotation "closes" it to some extent.
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It's square when it's perpendicular to the court surface.
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As the top of the racquet face rotates backward (away from the net), the face is said to open up.
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From the context of your post, I think you knew that and just used the word "perpendicular" where you meant "parallel," but thought I'd give you the specs, just so you can figure it out for yourself.


On the subject of "who hits like this?" Most true western FH's are closed before the forward swing begins. They contact the ball at square or only slightly closed (if the height of the ball above the net permits it), however. Because the face is so closed on the takeback, and the forward swing is so quick, it may give the illusion that the face is very closed at the moment of contact, but the laws of physics prevent a ball struck with too-closed a face from ever going over the net. Angles of deflection and all that.

[tom-selleck]

On the subject of "who hits like this?" Most true western FH's are closed before the forward swing begins. They contact the ball at square or only slightly closed (if the height of the ball above the net permits it), however. Because the face is so closed on the takeback, and the forward swing is so quick, it may give the illusion that the face is very closed at the moment of contact, but the laws of physics prevent a ball struck with too-closed a face from ever going over the net. Angles of deflection and all that.

grimjack, thanks for the explanation...

and i agree that the racquet is closer to square than i think when i hit this new shot ("new" for ME, as i said).... but i do think you can hit the ball over with a fairly closed racquet face, as the strings will "grab" the ball and help it over the net.... i am going to practice this shot and see if i can hit it with the racquet face 20-30% closed... one problem is that when i learn a new shot, i seem to try to hit it every single shot instead of incorporating it slowly.

[papa]

Well, I'm not so sure I understand what you've discovered. Is it that you don't have to come directly "over" the ball each time or that you can hit a close ball using a western type grip? On an inside-outside, type shot for example, your imparting more sidespin so you're not going to be going directly over the top. And going to a western grip near net has its own problems as just discussed in the post "hitting low ball near the net" or whatever it was.

[tom-selleck]

papa.... i'm basically saying hitting over the top of the ball as opposed to up the back of the ball, and you're racquet face would be partially facing down to the court. i've never seen a suggestion to take your racquet face past perpindicular to the court before ..... i'm only thinking on short balls where alot of us have a problem with hitting the long. so, i'm thinking of imparting extreme topspin from the front of the court, or i suppose you could use it for an extreme angle for mid-court too.

[papa]

papa.... i'm basically saying hitting over the top of the ball as opposed to up the back of the ball, and you're racquet face would be partially facing down to the court. i've never seen a suggestion to take your racquet face past perpindicular to the court before ..... i'm only thinking on short balls where alot of us have a problem with hitting the long. so, i'm thinking of imparting extreme topspin from the front of the court, or i suppose you could use it for an extreme angle for mid-court too.

OK, but if your coming "directly over the top" your not going to get any inside-outside (sidespin) - its basically topspin. The position of the racquet head in relation to the court generally is a factor of what type of grip is used.
I think if you look up western/semi western grips you'll see countless references to the racquet being as you described. Look for some of BB's stuff, he has written extensively on this an many other issues.

Now, you can't just hit the top of the ball because you know where its going to go. So, we're talking about maybe using the top half of the ball and lifting the ball over the net - you're still brushing up the ball. Brushing is just a general term and not intended to indicate an exact racquet path. Just keep in mind that the lower the ball gets the trickier it gets to do what you described going in the western direction.

[Fatmike]

in review, i was just wondering if other players do this shot (racquet face moderately to major facing the ground and rip over top of the ball).... i do think it might be what roddick does when he hits his forehand on a short ball... never seen any tennis instruction suggestion having the racquet very closed....




was talking with my coach about short/high balls and he told me that he hit them like you mentionned.... brushed with a closed face so the balls drops down....

[tom-selleck]

Now, you can't just hit the top of the ball because you know where its going to go. So, we're talking about maybe using the top half of the ball and lifting the ball over the net - you're still brushing up the ball. Brushing is just a general term and not intended to indicate an exact racquet path. Just keep in mind that the lower the ball gets the trickier it gets to do what you described going in the western direction.

papa (and the later poster),

thanks for the responses!!

one thing i think we all learn is that the strings friction with the ball can be quite powerful. so that you can hit the ball with a very closed racquet and have it go over the net. but must be fairly far forward in court, have tremendous racquet head speed and make sure racquet's movement is exactly parallel to face........ something you could screw up easily in games when you are tight and the ball comes back fast.

just something i was fooling with... and i've never seen any instructional stuff about the racquet face being closed 30 percent (just for example).... thinking roddick does this on short balls when he absolutely hammers the ball but it bounces way inside the service line.

on a somewhat related note, i have noticed that when people serve they seem to come up over the ball. even for "flat" serves for most people... i don't think the tennis instructional world has done that great a job in describing the way to hit certain shots... i would suggest more hitting up over the ball for serves, and even for spin serves i would have vertical spin element to it as well.......... just my two cents!!!

[newshound]

My tennis teacher, who is not classically trained has me come over the top of a sitting short ball really quickly.. like scalping it. I would almost say it's a like flattening out a topspin shot. Ball goes fast and down. Is that what you mean?

[Kana Himezaki]

If you're aiming for the really sharp angles, I'd personally just stick with a volley. More consistent, and can produce the same angles with not that much more practice.

Your closed racquet face will produce a lot of errors, as you already mentioned. It's like the second half of a swinging volley. During those, you want to hammer the ball but stick a lot of topspin on it to keep it in. In the short you're describing, you're pretty much brushing up against the ball AND pushing it downward.

Not that great. Of course, this is only my opinion. I don't believe it'll ever get that much better with practice, unless you open the racquet face more and attempt more of a normal volley.

[troytennisbum]

lol,
Tom-Selleck, your asking about driving home a short ball. You might want to check out a rather heated "debate" regarding a similiar topic on a previous thread entitled
"hitting a low ball NEAR the net".

[Kana Himezaki]

LOL. But on a similar note, the high floaters that he wants to put away (or he wouldn't get away with this pushing down motion at all) are high. Not low. In this case, using an Eastern grip isn't as beneficial as a Semiwestern grip. Different ideal contact zones, as frequently discussed in that thread. XD