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View Full Version : Why hasn't this player been DQ-ed?


iankogan
09-19-2010, 09:54 PM
http://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/reports/TennisLinkReports.aspx?Level=I&MemberID=DB00D453EFD0968695841B6A79C8BF7E9D&CYear=2010

http://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/reports/NTRP/SearchResults.aspx?Search=Name&SearchType=X&LastName=swanson&FirstName=jeffrey

This self-rated gentlemen had just won Colorado State Open in 3.5 singles. I didn't play this tourney, never met the guy, and don't have a dog in the fight... just looked up his record out of curiosity. What I see doesn't square with my understanding of how DNTRP works (which is, admittedly, limited). Can someone shed light?

goober
09-20-2010, 07:14 AM
DQ'ed from what?

He is a self rated 3.5 playing in a 4.0 league. His record there obviously didn't get 3 strikes for the 4.0 level. He looks like he is playing the right level actually.

You can't be DQ'ed from regular tournaments as a self rate.

The only thing I could see him being DQ'ed from is his 7.5 mixed. He is 3-2 there and from what I understand mixed doesn't count toward your rating unless your are playing mixed exclusive.

He will likely get bumped at the end of the year, but there is nothing that jumps out and says obvious DQ for the leagues he is in.

jhick
09-20-2010, 07:26 AM
There is a computer model that the USTA uses to determine NTRP ratings. If this guy is 3.5 or under on the scale then it will generate a 3.5 rating. Once his computer generated rating is higher he will be bumped up to 4.0.

For all we know this guy may have originally self rated as a 3.0 which set the bar low (which is an inherent problem with self rating in general). If he did this, his computer rating will keep increasing, but could still be under the 3.5 threshold. Also, you would need to look at the 4.0 guys he has been playing in leagues. Some of them might be 3.5 rated players playing up as well, which wouldn't necessarily increase his computer rating per se.

Also, in order to get DQ'd you need to have 3 strikes, in his case meaning that his NTRP computer rating must exceed 3.5 for 3 matches. For all we know he may currently have 2 strikes against him.

I guess my main point is that the ratings will generally work themselves out, but sometimes it takes a while for that to happen. The exception to this rule would be if the player is purposely tanking games/sets.

jhick
09-20-2010, 07:31 AM
You can't be DQ'ed from regular tournaments as a self rate.


This is a good point also.

goober
09-20-2010, 07:33 AM
For all we know this guy may have originally self rated as a 3.0 which set the bar low (which is an inherent problem with self rating in general). If he did this, his computer rating will keep increasing, but could still be under the 3.5 threshold. Also, you would need to look at the 4.0 guys he has been playing in leagues. Some of them might be 3.5 rated players playing up as well, which wouldn't necessarily increase his computer rating per se.

.

Actually no- it clearly states he self rated 3.5 on 3/28/10.

jhick
09-20-2010, 07:41 AM
Actually no- it clearly states he self rated 3.5 on 3/28/10.

Ok, didn't catch that. Well, being that it is a recent self rate, I don't see any problems with it. He may have self rated low, but none of us know his situation. Maybe he was coming back from injury or hadn't played in years and didn't know what he should rate himself as. He won't get DQ'd from 4.0's and if he keeps winning matches at that level, most likely he will be bumped up at the end of this season.

iankogan
09-20-2010, 09:49 AM
DQ'ed from what?

Point taken, I did not word my question correctly. Let me restate it: how is it possible that this player did not receive his 3 strikes yet (and consequently got bumped to 4.0 rating), after having played 15 singles matches against bona-fide 4.0 players (and they are 'legit' 4.0 players, I checked), winning 7 of these matches, and having very close scores in all the matches he lost?

Yes, he had indeed played the right level in the 4.0 league. Basically, I'm wondering why it is taking so long for the DNTRP model to recognize that?

Another aspect is ethical. I feel that entering a 3.5 tourney after playing as a competitive 4.0 all season constitutes cheating, or at least poor sportsmanship - which was in this case facilitated by the DNTRP model.

jhick
09-20-2010, 10:11 AM
Point taken, I did not word my question correctly. Let me restate it: how is it possible that this player did not receive his 3 strikes yet (and consequently got bumped to 4.0 rating), after having played 15 singles matches against bone-fide 4.0 players (and they are 'legit' 4.0 players, I checked), winning 7 of these matches, and having very close scores in all the matches he lost?

Yes, he had indeed played the right level in the 4.0 league. Basically, I'm wondering why it is taking so long for the DNTRP model to recognize that?

Another aspect is ethical. I feel that entering a 3.5 tourney after playing as a competitive 4.0 all season constitutes cheating, or at least poor sportsmanship - which was in this case facilitated by the DNTRP model.

I still do not follow. How he could receive 3 strikes if he's playing in a 4.0 league? It would mean he'd be DQ'd from the 4.0 league which wouldn't make any sense given that he's had competitive matches at that level.

The ethical argument makes a little more sense. He probably knows he can play 3.5 tournaments and he won't get DQ'd. However, if he's having competitive matches at 4.0, then you could still make the case that he's a strong 3.5. I've played in 5.0 leagues in the past (while rated 4.5) and am usually competitive. At the same time, at 4.5 I would win the majority of my matches, but most of them were close unless I was playing a weak 4.5, or 4.0 playing up a level.

kylebarendrick
09-20-2010, 11:50 AM
I still do not follow. How he could receive 3 strikes if he's playing in a 4.0 league? It would mean he'd be DQ'd from the 4.0 league which wouldn't make any sense given that he's had competitive matches at that level.

I don't think that is the question. The question is "why didn't he get DQ'd from 3.5 based on his 4.0 results?" You don't actually have to play at the 3.5 level to get DQ'd (bumped really) to 4.0 mid-season if you are a self-rate only playing 4.0. It wouldn't affecrt any of his 4.0 results, it would just prevent him from doing things like entering a tournament as a 3.5.

iankogan
09-20-2010, 12:15 PM
I still do not follow. How he could receive 3 strikes if he's playing in a 4.0 league? It would mean he'd be DQ'd from the 4.0 league which wouldn't make any sense given that he's had competitive matches at that level.
That probably means that I'm still not quite finding my way with words :-) One more try, without all the unfortunate terminology ("DQ'd", "strikes", etc.): why, after 15 competitive 4.0 matches, is this guy still a 3.5? Why has he not been 'officially' bumped to 4.0? Such adjustments are made to self-rated players mid-year, correct?

...if he's having competitive matches at 4.0, then you could still make the case that he's a strong 3.5.
Yes and you can also make the case that he's a weak 4.5 :-)

The point I'm trying to make:
This player self-rated as a 3.5 which objectively was too low, though he probably 'under-rated' himself without any intent to cheat. Somehow he realized right away that 4.0 was his proper rating, and played leagues at that level all year with good success, kudos. Then the league season comes to a close and the biggest state tourney of the year rolls around. Now the guy remembers that he's 'officially' a 3.5, and even though he did not play one 3.5 match all year he enters the tourney at that level. Note that after playing all year at 4.0 he did not enter the 4.0 draw. He proceeds to win the title. Is this cheating? Officially, no, it was his right to enter as a 3.5. But he could only do so because the system was (is) slow to realize what any person can tell at a glance of his record: this player does not belong to 3.5, he is a 4.0. I don't blame the guy, I blame the system for enabling bad sportsmanship :-)

iankogan
09-20-2010, 12:16 PM
I don't think that is the question. The question is "why didn't he get DQ'd from 3.5 based on his 4.0 results?" You don't actually have to play at the 3.5 level to get DQ'd (bumped really) to 4.0 mid-season if you are a self-rate only playing 4.0. It wouldn't affecrt any of his 4.0 results, it would just prevent him from doing things like entering a tournament as a 3.5.
Thanks kyle, you presented my point more clearly than I ever could.

Sakkijarvi
09-20-2010, 12:41 PM
...it seems kind of creepy to have 'no dog' but be cyberstalking some stranger over something that is none of your business...the saying stupid **** like this "Another aspect is ethical. I feel that entering a 3.5 tourney after playing as a competitive 4.0 all season constitutes cheating, or at least poor sportsmanship" about an alleged 'stranger'. Perhaps this is not a "stranger' to you after all?

Very....creepy....

athiker
09-20-2010, 12:56 PM
Must have been quite the surprise for John Lewin and Cleo Lucas when they met up with Mr. Swanson. Take a glance at their previous records...especially Lucas...a lot of bread-sticks and a few bagels in his record.

iankogan
09-20-2010, 02:28 PM
...it seems kind of creepy to have 'no dog' but be cyberstalking some stranger over something that is none of your business...the saying stupid **** like this "Another aspect is ethical. I feel that entering a 3.5 tourney after playing as a competitive 4.0 all season constitutes cheating, or at least poor sportsmanship" about an alleged 'stranger'. Perhaps this is not a "stranger' to you after all?

Very....creepy....
Well perhaps not a stranger but you'll never know, will you? Not unless you take my word that I never met the guy, or heard of him before... which you are likely not inclined to do. Feel free to make a conjecture that I'm in fact Ian Todd, the guy who lost to Mr. Swanson in the final, and thus the aggrieved party... LOL.

One more time, for the record: while I think it is unethical for a proven 4.0 player to play in a 3.5 draw of a tournament under the ruse of self-rating, I have no beef with the guy. I do question the system which allows such a ruse to stand in the first place.

polski
09-20-2010, 05:45 PM
I interpret him as a good 3.5 player that borderline could be a 4.0, but it isn't a slam dunk. I understand where you are coming from as he has a lot of 4.0 wins. However, he has several losses and is slightly over .500 at the 4.0 level.

On another note, I'd be confident if I got this guy into a tiebreaker. Only 1 win and 6 losses in match tiebreaks. Then he plays tournaments and does well when third sets are played out. He's a grinder, not a point player.

Panic492
09-20-2010, 08:32 PM
Point taken, I did not word my question correctly. Let me restate it: how is it possible that this player did not receive his 3 strikes yet (and consequently got bumped to 4.0 rating), after having played 15 singles matches against bona-fide 4.0 players (and they are 'legit' 4.0 players, I checked), winning 7 of these matches, and having very close scores in all the matches he lost?

Yes, he had indeed played the right level in the 4.0 league. Basically, I'm wondering why it is taking so long for the DNTRP model to recognize that?

Another aspect is ethical. I feel that entering a 3.5 tourney after playing as a competitive 4.0 all season constitutes cheating, or at least poor sportsmanship - which was in this case facilitated by the DNTRP model.


In the 3.5 tournament he was taken to 3 sets twice. Many of his 3.5 tournamnet matches were competetive-not all.

jhick
09-21-2010, 07:02 AM
I don't think that is the question. The question is "why didn't he get DQ'd from 3.5 based on his 4.0 results?" You don't actually have to play at the 3.5 level to get DQ'd (bumped really) to 4.0 mid-season if you are a self-rate only playing 4.0. It wouldn't affecrt any of his 4.0 results, it would just prevent him from doing things like entering a tournament as a 3.5.

Can he get DQ'd from 3.5 if he's not playing in a USTA 3.5 league? Or are you asking if he could get DQ'd from USTA 3.5 tournaments based on his 4.0 league play?

DQ'd and bumped are two different things here. Bumping would occur after the season, DQ'd would mean he's no longer eligible to play in 3.5 tournaments he's currently entering. I've never heard of anyone getting DQ'd from a tournament based on their USTA league results.

J_R_B
09-21-2010, 11:01 AM
Can he get DQ'd from 3.5 if he's not playing in a USTA 3.5 league? Or are you asking if he could get DQ'd from USTA 3.5 tournaments based on his 4.0 league play?

DQ'd and bumped are two different things here. Bumping would occur after the season, DQ'd would mean he's no longer eligible to play in 3.5 tournaments he's currently entering. I've never heard of anyone getting DQ'd from a tournament based on their USTA league results.

The answer to this is covered on Page 13 of the attached FAQ:

http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/QAInterpretationsREORG.pdf

What can you do when an individual
self-rates low (3.5) and then starts play
at a higher level (4.0) that produces 3
strikes at the lower level? Do you have
to wait until they roster and play a match
to DQ them?

Regulation 3.04A states an individual will be
disqualified if they reach the disqualification level
3 times based on all matches reported in the
national database for Adult and Senior Divisions.
TennisLink will identify on the “At DQ” report an
individual that has acquired 3 strikes at his/her selfrated
level regardless of being rostered at that level
on any team. The Section will notify the individual
that a promotion/disqualification has occurred at
the self-rate level and that the Section has adjusted
the player’s self-rating. The individual must now
participate at that adjusted self-rate level or higher.
This is not an NTRP disqualification as the
individual never participated at that level. It will
be handled as an “appeal to move up” requested by
the section.
See Regulation: 3.04A

So, the self-rate who generated 3 strikes playing up should be bumped mid season, although technically it is not considered a "DQ" since there are no league matches at the lower level. In this case, I don't see how that player could have NOT generated 3 strikes at the 3.5 level warranting a bump ("appeal to move up" or whatever...) to 4.0. Seems like someone goofed here.

jhick
09-21-2010, 01:07 PM
The answer to this is covered on Page 13 of the attached FAQ:

http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/QAInterpretationsREORG.pdf



So, the self-rate who generated 3 strikes playing up should be bumped mid season, although technically it is not considered a "DQ" since there are no league matches at the lower level. In this case, I don't see how that player could have NOT generated 3 strikes at the 3.5 level warranting a bump ("appeal to move up" or whatever...) to 4.0. Seems like someone goofed here.

Thanks for clarifying. I did not realize that was the case.

However, I'm still not sure you can immediately infer that somebody goofed up, unless you work for the USTA and are privy to computer model which determines NTRP ratings.

iankogan
09-21-2010, 02:52 PM
The answer to this is covered on Page 13 of the attached FAQ:

[...]

So, the self-rate who generated 3 strikes playing up should be bumped mid season, although technically it is not considered a "DQ" since there are no league matches at the lower level. In this case, I don't see how that player could have NOT generated 3 strikes at the 3.5 level warranting a bump ("appeal to move up" or whatever...) to 4.0. Seems like someone goofed here.

JRB, thanks for digging up that info! I didn't know for sure that the 'bump' could occur mid-season; from what you posted it appears that it could. And I agree that it should have in this case. The fact that it didn't would seem to indicate that either a) 'someone goofed' as you put it (thought is there someone in a position to goof?!) or b) the DNTRP algorithm itself is seriously flawed or c) the algorithm may be OK but the system 'trigger' to initiate the 'bump-up' did not fire as it should have.

Bedrock
09-21-2010, 04:04 PM
iankogan - exactly. This is very good question. Why ???

jhick
09-22-2010, 06:44 AM
JRB, thanks for digging up that info! I didn't know for sure that the 'bump' could occur mid-season; from what you posted it appears that it could. And I agree that it should have in this case. The fact that it didn't would seem to indicate that either a) 'someone goofed' as you put it (thought is there someone in a position to goof?!) or b) the DNTRP algorithm itself is seriously flawed or c) the algorithm may be OK but the system 'trigger' to initiate the 'bump-up' did not fire as it should have.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one. Seriously, I don't think it's clear cut that the guy should have received 3 strikes from the 3.5 level and DQ'd mid season. More likely, he may have received 1 or 2 strikes during the summer and is on the bubble and will get bumped to 4.0 for this next winter season.

Working a lot with statistics in my job, I also know that with any model you need to have sufficient sample size before coming to a conclusion. After looking some more at the scores, most of the 4.0 guys this guy has beaten are average to below average 4.0 players, and he had close scores against them. It wasn't like he was blowing them out. Also, did you look at his opponents to see how strong their opponents were? I guess what I'm saying is that it is easy to come to subjective conclusions based on a few data points, but the model takes into account much more than that.

The system is not perfect, as you never can create a perfect model. I was bumped up to a 5.0 and I know some guys who are still rated 4.5 who could beat me regularly. But to saw the model is flawed, the trigger is not working, or someone dropped the ball is a bit of a reach, IMO.

jhick
09-22-2010, 06:46 AM
But to say the model is flawed, the trigger is not working, or someone dropped the ball is a bit of a reach, IMO.

iankogan
09-22-2010, 11:38 AM
I guess we'll just agree to disagree on this one. Seriously, I don't think it's clear cut that the guy should have received 3 strikes from the 3.5 level and DQ'd mid season. More likely, he may have received 1 or 2 strikes during the summer and is on the bubble and will get bumped to 4.0 for this next winter season.

Working a lot with statistics in my job, I also know that with any model you need to have sufficient sample size before coming to a conclusion. After looking some more at the scores, most of the 4.0 guys this guy has beaten are average to below average 4.0 players, and he had close scores against them. It wasn't like he was blowing them out. Also, did you look at his opponents to see how strong their opponents were? I guess what I'm saying is that it is easy to come to subjective conclusions based on a few data points, but the model takes into account much more than that.

The system is not perfect, as you never can create a perfect model. I was bumped up to a 5.0 and I know some guys who are still rated 4.5 who could beat me regularly. But to saw the model is flawed, the trigger is not working, or someone dropped the ball is a bit of a reach, IMO.

Good points, I don't disagree with you, why don't we agree to agree :-) I expect that at the end of the year the system will most likely bump this player up to 4.0. I wish he would not play any more matches this year, to keep our experiment pristine :-) If that happens and he ends up being bumped to 4.0, one could argue that the system had all the data points necessary to bump him up earlier, no? If anything, he'd likely lowered his DNTRP with that 3.5 tourney run at the end of the season, compared to what it was prior to him playing that tourney...

jhick
09-22-2010, 12:03 PM
If that happens and he ends up being bumped to 4.0, one could argue that the system had all the data points necessary to bump him up earlier, no?

No that is not how the rating system works. It just means that his rating at the end of the season is above 3.5. In order to get bumped (or DQ'd) mid season, he would need to have played 3 matches where his rating exceeded 3.5. There are lots of players who get bumped up (or down) at the end of a season. Getting DQ'd does not occur nearly as often.

kylebarendrick
09-22-2010, 01:34 PM
It is more than that...

To get bumped to 4.0 at the end of the season he would simply need a rating above 3.50. To earn a strike, he would need a dynamic rating above (something like) 3.70. The threshold for strikes is almost halfway into the next level - so if he is beating weak 4.0s, he may not be generating strikes at all.

amarone
09-22-2010, 03:23 PM
It is more than that...

To get bumped to 4.0 at the end of the season he would simply need a rating above 3.50. To earn a strike, he would need a dynamic rating above (something like) 3.70. The threshold for strikes is almost halfway into the next level - so if he is beating weak 4.0s, he may not be generating strikes at all.
This is correct, except that the threshold level for generating a strike is 3.80. Or, at least, it was 18 months ago when I attended a meeting in which we were told the threshold for each level.

The others were: 2.5 DQ level = 3.0; 3.0 DQ level = 3.3; 4.0 DQ level = 4.2. They did not tell us 4.5+

iankogan
10-01-2010, 09:24 AM
OP here... I appreciate the info, thanks to all who contributed to the discussion!

ronray43
10-04-2010, 11:36 AM
This is actually pretty typical in Colorado. If you check out the CTA Twilight League finals for mens 3.5, you'll find that three of the four singles players who played in the finals had either S or T ratings. The guy who won the Pinery 3.5 tournament was self rated and got DQ'd later on during the adult season. Also, lots of self rated folks in the mixed leagues since DNTRP doesn't come into play and you can't get DQ'd (you can't get dynamically DQ'd in CTA twilight either). This is why the Seniors league is great--everyone's been playing for years, and there are very few self rated players.