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View Full Version : Why doesn't ALTA seed for playoffs?


CSquared
10-29-2010, 06:52 AM
We won our division and had the second most wins across our flight, yet are in the same half as the team with the most wins. Anybody know?

spot
10-29-2010, 07:09 AM
What alta says is that because divisions vary so much that you can't judge which team is stronger just by looking at how many points they took this season. So ALTA just has a set bracket where they don't have to worry about.

I'd also say part of it is that the coordinators don't want to ahve to go through the hassle of figuring out the that many tiebreakers.

jpr
10-29-2010, 07:57 AM
same thing happened to us. seeding should be easy...seed by points. they shouldnt have too many tie-breakers to settle, but if the case arises choose by proximity (to avoid long commutes).

current method doesnt guarantee best 2 teams make the final (not sure my suggestion does either), but it is easier for them to administer.

spt
10-29-2010, 10:33 AM
I say what does it matter.....

Matches won are really irrelevant when you are comparing divisions around the city.

Congratulations on winning your division. You are going to have to beat the best teams to win city. Does it really matter if you get knocked off in the first round or in the finals. The small plate only gets you so far. You gotta go for the big plate. They don't give a finalist bag tag.

Now go win city. Good luck.

rich s
10-30-2010, 02:10 PM
seeding is worthless in Alta....

a bunch of years ago we took second in our division. Our division was made up of teams from the Kennesaw/Acworth/West Cobb area.

We had to play a first place team that was in a division down in Peachtree City.

The PC team took 34 of 35 points on the season...... we beat their 1s, 2s and 3s easily in straight sets.....

As another example in 2007 we won the City's as a second place team.... all of our dual meets and the City dual match were won by the 1's, 2's and 3's except the second round which was 1s, 2s and 4s because the 3s were in the 3rd set...... Our 5's never stepped on a court the entire playoffs.... The team we beat in City's won 32 of 35 on the season....

bcart1991
11-01-2010, 05:48 AM
Rich got it right. A good team in a weak division has no business being seeded high.

During summer mixed playoffs, a team with 30 or 31 points went down in the first round to another 2nd place team.

This past weekend, my men's team had a tougher time with the 3rd place team that squeaked in (first round, won in 4) than we did against the winning team from that same division and beat them easily in 3.

Plus, you'd get a bunch of northsiders whining that they deserve higher seeds for whatever reason... ;) ;) ;)

Dishiki
11-09-2010, 12:31 PM
I also believe they initially predetermined it so that travel would be a consideration. They try to group the brackets geographically.

tideronthehooch
02-04-2011, 02:03 PM
Does anything ALTA does make sense?

greg_in_atl
02-08-2011, 09:13 AM
Does anything ALTA does make sense?

$25 dues for an entire year of league play -- that is a lot of bang for the buck, relatively speaking.

tideronthehooch
02-08-2011, 03:52 PM
$25 dues for an entire year of league play -- that is a lot of bang for the buck, relatively speaking.

I do play ALTA but I am not really a fan. Although it is far from perfect, I like USTA leagues much better. IMHO ALTA needs to get a better rating system that is more individual based than team based. The rating system that they use is ridiculous in that entire teams can rise with a few players up the rankings and the are are stuck at or near that same level for years when those players leave or move on, even while coming in last place in their division season after season. At least ALTA finally got a functioning website here in 2010/2011.

jester911
02-08-2011, 05:13 PM
ALTA is far from perfect but I have played in it and USTA for many years. Personally I think there is much more sandbagging in USTA than ALTA. Seeing some of the guys "rated" at 4.5 in the playoffs was a farce. If your team didn't have ringers in there you never had a prayer.

Between that and the times the men leagues play I quit USTA about 5 years ago.
4:00 on Sunday afternoon in the summer? 9 am in winter? No thanks I will pass.

As for seeding I don't really see it necessary. As has been mentioned it many times is the division your in. This season our mixed team is perfect example. Last season we got practically killed and only took 10 points for the season. We are at the same level and we are leading the division after 5 weeks. We had very little change in our roster.

bcart1991
02-09-2011, 04:58 AM
Between that and the times the men leagues play I quit USTA about 5 years ago.
4:00 on Sunday afternoon in the summer? 9 am in winter? No thanks I will pass.


That's the coordinator's fault, and it may be one or two captains pushing for those times. You should call the office and make a suggestion.

Out here on the west side, we usually start matches weeknights at 6:30 or Saturdays at 1pm, no matter the season.

jester911
02-09-2011, 05:14 AM
That's the coordinator's fault, and it may be one or two captains pushing for those times. You should call the office and make a suggestion.

Out here on the west side, we usually start matches weeknights at 6:30 or Saturdays at 1pm, no matter the season.

No it is because USTA plays second fiddle to ALTA in the metro area.
The courts are not available in most cases for those times. It has been that way for as long as I have been playing (25 years).

I have no interest any longer in USTA anyway. After playing 4.5 matches against kids just graduated from playing D1 in college I decided it was time to move on.

polski
02-09-2011, 05:32 AM
No it is because USTA plays second fiddle to ALTA in the metro area.
The courts are not available in most cases for those times. It has been that way for as long as I have been playing (25 years).

I have no interest any longer in USTA anyway. After playing 4.5 matches against kids just graduated from playing D1 in college I decided it was time to move on.

Kind of the problem with having 2 semi-successful tennis leagues functioning with the same players. It would be nice if the USTA coordinators & ALTA officials could marry their seasons a little better. However, USTA is limited in how they can do that with the advancement to sectionals & nationals being set for the masses.

bcart1991
02-09-2011, 05:36 AM
No it is because USTA plays second fiddle to ALTA in the metro area.
The courts are not available in most cases for those times. It has been that way for as long as I have been playing (25 years).

I have no interest any longer in USTA anyway. After playing 4.5 matches against kids just graduated from playing D1 in college I decided it was time to move on.

Eh, we don't really have that problem out here. I do agree about 4.5. It's highly sandbagged in the Atlanta region, way too many sandbaggers afraid to play proper 5.0.

jester911
02-09-2011, 07:12 AM
Kind of the problem with having 2 semi-successful tennis leagues functioning with the same players. It would be nice if the USTA coordinators & ALTA officials could marry their seasons a little better. However, USTA is limited in how they can do that with the advancement to sectionals & nationals being set for the masses.

I don't consider ALTA as semi successful. They have over 80,000 members and are the largest "local" amatuer tennis organization in the world. That is in an area with about 6 million people.
In comparison USTA has about 700k nationally so percentage wise it really doesn't compare.
Like I said. USTA is second fiddle in the ATL.

spot
02-09-2011, 07:29 AM
Its shocking how many people in your day to day life play ALTA and you don't even realize it. I was at a match and I saw a guy I worked with- he plays AA1 and I had no idea.

I do wish that ALTA had an individual rating but I like how they let you put any group of people on a team together and then place the team accordingly. We could never have our men's team together in USTA- we have a guy who played at Michigan State down to guys who didn't start playing until they were 30.

gatorskb12
02-09-2011, 08:46 AM
the worst is when USTA State and Alta Playoffs are going on at the same time imo. driving from macon , rome , augusta is no fun when you have to wake up and drive back to atl

tideronthehooch
02-11-2011, 12:23 PM
I do wish that ALTA had an individual rating but I like how they let you put any group of people on a team together and then place the team accordingly. We could never have our men's team together in USTA- we have a guy who played at Michigan State down to guys who didn't start playing until they were 30.[/QUOTE]

That's the problem with the competition in ALTA. The team you just described could come in as C-6 their first year and move up 2 notches at a time until they get to A level winning 6-7 plates along the way. Then the MSU guy jumps off with a few of the other top players and it takes several years for the stragglers to move back down to their proper level.

In my years playing tennis in Atlanta I too have seen a few sandbaggers here and there in USTA. However in ALTA, I have seen many TEAMS filled top to bottom with sandbaggers, especially playing out of public parks. Anyway, at the end of the day, I'll keep playing USTA to play tennis and THEN drink beer and I'll keep playing ALTA as a good excuse to drink beer WHILE I play tennis.:)

spot
02-13-2011, 06:39 AM
tidronthehooch- The first season of my team we were at B6 (long before our college players) and lost city finals they still moved the team up to B2 the next season. So ALTA is aggressive about moving up first season teams to avoid that problem that you describe. BUt I do agree that they need to do a better job of having people self rate. It is ridiculous that they treat everyone who hasn't played ALTA before as if they are an ultra beginner.

netman
02-13-2011, 01:40 PM
I do wish that ALTA had an individual rating but I like how they let you put any group of people on a team together and then place the team accordingly. We could never have our men's team together in USTA- we have a guy who played at Michigan State down to guys who didn't start playing until they were 30.

That's the problem with the competition in ALTA. The team you just described could come in as C-6 their first year and move up 2 notches at a time until they get to A level winning 6-7 plates along the way. Then the MSU guy jumps off with a few of the other top players and it takes several years for the stragglers to move back down to their proper level.

In my years playing tennis in Atlanta I too have seen a few sandbaggers here and there in USTA. However in ALTA, I have seen many TEAMS filled top to bottom with sandbaggers, especially playing out of public parks. Anyway, at the end of the day, I'll keep playing USTA to play tennis and THEN drink beer and I'll keep playing ALTA as a good excuse to drink beer WHILE I play tennis.:)[/QUOTE]





You nailed it. I like that ALTA is structured so friends can play together regardless of skill level. Unfortunately that approach makes it easy for for teams to game the system and win city plates. But what is city plate really worth these days, given the massive amount of unsportsmanlike conduct that goes in to winning one? Better to enjoy the camaraderie of hanging out with a bunch of good friends every week than stressing over a city plate that has no real value. BTW, I've seen a number of city plates in thrift stores. You could buy them for a couple of bucks. :)

-k-

spot
02-14-2011, 03:25 AM
Funny... I think there is far more sandbagging in USTA than there is in ALTA. In USTA people will actively try to sneak people onto a roster who are at the wrong level because there are "nationals" to win. In ALTA they just accept that in a neighborhood there could be someone who played in college living next to someone who is a 3.5 player and they just say that its fine to have them both on the same team and the team will be a balance. As I have said- I do think its ridiculous that ALTA treats someone who wins at line 1 and someone who loses at line 5 with the same rating at the end of the season but I do like ALTA's team far better.

In USTA getting bumped up is a traumatic event. Either the whole team needs to move up (in a league where there is a big jump between levels) or else you need to leave your friends and find a whole new team. In Alta when the team moves up its a pretty gradual step up in competition. In ALTA there is no reason to manipulate your individual rating to avoid getting bumped up. And I really like that in ALTA there is a real incentive to take all 5 lines so the truly dominant teams will get moved up quicker.

And in ALTA you just have to accept that you never have any idea what you are going to face at line 1. Its always been funny to me when someone complains about a player at line 1 or line 2 being too good for the level. They didn't pick the level they are playing at.

amarone
02-14-2011, 02:18 PM
That's the coordinator's fault, and it may be one or two captains pushing for those times. You should call the office and make a suggestion.
Let's hear your suggestions (for USTA match start times in Atlanta) and I will pass them on (or tell you why those times are not currently used).

netman
02-14-2011, 04:37 PM
Funny... I think there is far more sandbagging in USTA than there is in ALTA. In USTA people will actively try to sneak people onto a roster who are at the wrong level because there are "nationals" to win. In ALTA they just accept that in a neighborhood there could be someone who played in college living next to someone who is a 3.5 player and they just say that its fine to have them both on the same team and the team will be a balance. As I have said- I do think its ridiculous that ALTA treats someone who wins at line 1 and someone who loses at line 5 with the same rating at the end of the season but I do like ALTA's team far better.

In USTA getting bumped up is a traumatic event. Either the whole team needs to move up (in a league where there is a big jump between levels) or else you need to leave your friends and find a whole new team. In Alta when the team moves up its a pretty gradual step up in competition. In ALTA there is no reason to manipulate your individual rating to avoid getting bumped up. And I really like that in ALTA there is a real incentive to take all 5 lines so the truly dominant teams will get moved up quicker.

And in ALTA you just have to accept that you never have any idea what you are going to face at line 1. Its always been funny to me when someone complains about a player at line 1 or line 2 being too good for the level. They didn't pick the level they are playing at.

Pick any sports league built on an arbitrary rating system, and you find plenty of bad sportsmen finding ways to game the system. God bless them, their little egos really need the boost of winning regardless of how bad they cheat.

-k-

bcart1991
02-15-2011, 04:51 AM
Let's hear your suggestions (for USTA match start times in Atlanta) and I will pass them on (or tell you why those times are not currently used).

Our coordinator is great out here in West GA (Douglas, Haralson, Carroll, Paulding). He schedules our leagues around ALTA's schedule. We've played leagues at 1pm Saturday during summer, Saturday or Sunday mornings during winter, and weeknights usually starting at 6:30. Yes, sometimes you'll play two matches in a day if you want to play in both leagues. Life's tough, wear a helmet.

I live in Douglasville, so I'm usually driving 30-45 minutes to Carrollton for my away matches. We're used to it, as our ALTA schedules have us in divisions with either West Cobb/Marietta teams, or South Fulton/Newnan/Peachtree City teams.

If you want to play, you make time. Pretty much the same for everything in life. My sister works in the USTA office a few days a week. Call and complain to her. :) :) :)

amarone
02-15-2011, 05:24 AM
Our coordinator is great out here in West GA (Douglas, Haralson, Carroll, Paulding). He schedules our leagues around ALTA's schedule. We've played leagues at 1pm Saturday during summer, Saturday or Sunday mornings during winter, and weeknights usually starting at 6:30. Yes, sometimes you'll play two matches in a day if you want to play in both leagues. Life's tough, wear a helmet.
That's the key - Atlanta USTA is scheduled to avoid having to play two matches in a day. Summer Saturdays are ALTA mixed, so USTA is on a Sunday. Sunday morning is avoided because of the churchgoers. That leaves you trying to fit women (12:30 start) and men (4:30) into Sunday afternoon/evening. Personally, I would rather have a 4:30 pm Sunday start than have to play twice on Saturday. I would rather have a Sunday morning match, but I am not a churchgoer.

Winter Sundays are ALTA mixed, so USTA is on Saturday - men at 9:00, women at 1:00. If you start the men much later, then the women will be playing in the dark.

Weeknight scheduling would result in a 75% reduction in men playing USTA in Atlanta, in my opinion. I, for one, would not play. I am not interested in battling Atlanta rush-hour traffic in order to play a match some or all of which is likely to be in the dark.

I think your "life's tough, wear a helmet" will apply to few people. I think you are much more likely to get "life's tough if you want to play USTA, so let's not bother - we'll just play the masses of other tennis (ALTA, T2, Ultimate, and several more) that is scheduled better".

Anyway, there is a USTA meeting later this week at which start times will be discussed. If I learn anything new about why they are as they are - or if there are plans to change - I will post them. btw, I had no involvement in determining the current start times, so I am not defending myself.

bcart1991
02-15-2011, 06:17 AM
I agree it's not easy scheduling around both, but if you want to play both, some compromises have to be made. People in Atlanta are spoiled with all the flex-schedule leagues.

I think your "life's tough, wear a helmet" will apply to few people. I think you are much more likely to get "life's tough if you want to play USTA, so let's not bother - we'll just play the masses of other tennis (ALTA, T2, Ultimate, and several more) that is scheduled better".

I know. People have gotten soft.

I'm not sure which I like better, the flex-league scheduling or the set-time schedule. I like the set-time a bit better because it allows you to better plan around match time, instead of trying to find time for it. Lots of our WGTA folks work in Atlanta as well, and they have to battle rush-hour traffic just as much as anyone else.

netman
02-15-2011, 03:15 PM
I've always been intrigued by the fact the both ALTA and USTA have men play at 9am on Saturdays and women at 1 pm. Most fathers I know are coaching youth sports on Saturday mornings and I think that really reduces their participation in the men's leagues. I know I was out of tennis for several years due to this conflict.

Perhaps women should play on Sat mornings and men in the afternoons.

amarone
02-16-2011, 02:58 AM
I've always been intrigued by the fact the both ALTA and USTA have men play at 9am on Saturdays and women at 1 pm. Most fathers I know are coaching youth sports on Saturday mornings and I think that really reduces their participation in the men's leagues. I know I was out of tennis for several years due to this conflict.

Perhaps women should play on Sat mornings and men in the afternoons.
That would work most of the time, I think, but ALTA men in the fall, and the beginning of USTA winter, would be hit badly by the clash with college football.

netman
02-18-2011, 05:06 AM
That would work most of the time, I think, but ALTA men in the fall, and the beginning of USTA winter, would be hit badly by the clash with college football.

True. College football trumps any event on Saturdays in Georgia.

-k-