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vizsla
10-31-2010, 06:13 AM
Any word if the year end ratings will be published around the same time as years prior (usually the Monday after Thanksgiving)???

Jim A
10-31-2010, 05:48 PM
we've heard that it will be status quo here in CO
won't matter much to me as I only played 2 tournaments and 1 League match...won some matches against some who will likely be bumped..but likely not enough body of work to join them..and I'm ok with that

tennis_tater
11-01-2010, 09:42 AM
We've been told the new ratings will come out the week after the last mixed national championships, which ends on Nov. 21st. The results from the mixed championships is needed to factor in to the year-end ratings for mixed exclusive players. So, with the tournament ending on Sunday, Nov. 21st, I would expect the new ratings to come out within the following week (Monday or Tuesday after Thanksgiving).

njsigman
11-03-2010, 11:29 AM
Anyone have any insight on the "adjustments"? Are we to expect similar % of bump ups as last year?

tennis_tater
11-04-2010, 01:26 PM
Any word if the year end ratings will be published around the same time as years prior (usually the Monday after Thanksgiving)???

This was posted on our state's website today:

The rating calculation process for 2010 ratings is underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010

86golf
11-05-2010, 03:00 AM
I've heard ALTA players can get their new USTA ratings now by signing up for ALTA team.

dlk
11-05-2010, 03:59 AM
I'm confused, according to USTA, my year-end is not until like end of FEB 2011. Am I reading wrong or is it state dependent? Or maybe related to last rating period?

dizzlmcwizzl
11-05-2010, 11:04 AM
Anyone have any insight on the "adjustments"? Are we to expect similar % of bump ups as last year?

A guy who is a coordinator for a local district told us to expect another bump up of approximately the same magnitude. He claimed that this was always supposed to be a 2-year process.

heninfan99
11-05-2010, 11:13 AM
I was informed by a USTA rep that year end ranking would be published to tennislink Dec. 1st.

njsigman
11-05-2010, 02:26 PM
Thanks for the info. I hope to be moved up to 3.5, but I might be borderline.. :neutral:

JavierLW
11-05-2010, 02:41 PM
I was informed by a USTA rep that year end ranking would be published to tennislink Dec. 1st.

That would be stupid. Hopefully he doesnt know what he's talking about.

The logistics of it are just not ideal if they want to really be about growing tennis.

Angle Queen
11-05-2010, 03:34 PM
A guy who is a coordinator for a local district told us to expect another bump up of approximately the same magnitude. He claimed that this was always supposed to be a 2-year process.:rolleyes:

Greeaaat. Now I'm screwed.

Oh well. Next level up, here we come. Gonna getcha!

michael_1265
11-05-2010, 06:58 PM
:rolleyes:

Greeaaat. Now I'm screwed.

Oh well. Next level up, here we come. Gonna getcha!

Maybe this bump will finally cure my terminal case of 3.0.

I feel like a kid who has repeated 8th grade three times. Some of the people I started with in 2007 are 4.0s now.

dizzlmcwizzl
11-06-2010, 05:30 AM
That would be stupid. Hopefully he doesnt know what he's talking about.

The logistics of it are just not ideal if they want to really be about growing tennis.

Well, I will say that he did have inside knowledge. He rattled off a list of 8-10 folks I know and play with that would be bumped up for early start ratings and gave their ratings to the hundreths place. Sure enough every one was bumped up. That does not mean he was right about the mass bump ups but it certainly confirmed his credibility for me.

tennislefty
11-06-2010, 12:58 PM
ratings will be released around 11/28. In my local league we were told not to expect any huge number of players changing like last year. Everyone's ratings are adjusted at the end of each year, regarless of when and how many matches you play each season.

JLyon
11-06-2010, 02:09 PM
umm people tennislink says the Ratings are underway and should be published by Nov. 29th!!
national.usta.com (http://national.usta.com)
Stop making up the dates and go by what the USTA Site says.

michael_1265
11-06-2010, 08:53 PM
umm people tennislink says the Ratings are underway and should be published by Nov. 29th!!
national.usta.com (http://national.usta.com)
Stop making up the dates and go by what the USTA Site says.

Now what fun would that be????

Baseless conjecture and unsupported facts are the American Way.

robby c
11-07-2010, 04:33 AM
Now what fun would that be????

Baseless conjecture and unsupported facts are the American Way.

Especially for the News Media.

Robby C

tennis_tater
11-07-2010, 12:16 PM
This was posted on our state's website today:

The rating calculation process for 2010 ratings is underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010

I thought the new ratings always came out the week after Thanksgiving so that the new ratings would take into account the results from the mixed national championships held in November. From the above wording found on Tennis Link, that appears to not be the case.

azentropy
11-07-2010, 02:33 PM
I'm surprised the cutoff is Oct 31st... Also read in the past it was after the mixed national championships (and the others) were completed.

If someone gets bumped, who wasn't bumped in the early start list, and is currently an early start league are they then ineligible to complete the season?

marcl65
11-08-2010, 08:45 AM
A guy who is a coordinator for a local district told us to expect another bump up of approximately the same magnitude. He claimed that this was always supposed to be a 2-year process.

That’s too funny. I talked to a league rep a few weeks ago who said the USTA basically admitted that this year’s bump up was a mistake, largely due to it severely depleting the 2.5-3.0 levels in some/many areas. Per this individual they were going to “correct” this by freezing the ratings, i.e. few move up, few move down. However, if this is true, I can’t see how it will correct anything.

stever
11-12-2010, 09:45 AM
This was posted on our state's website today:

The rating calculation process for 2010 ratings is underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010

I play in a couple early start leagues now. There was one player in our 3.5 league the was DQ'd and bumped to 4.0 on November 1st. There have been no others that I am aware of. Do you think there could be anymore? It would really suck if we play 2-3 more matches and then find out on 11/29 someone gets DQ'd. Thanks.

heninfan99
11-12-2010, 09:54 AM
Okay, I'll take the bait. :-) How is learning your ranking on this day ruinous to USTA membership?

ps - ruinous is the word of the day.




That would be stupid. Hopefully he doesnt know what he's talking about.

The logistics of it are just not ideal if they want to really be about growing tennis.

heninfan99
11-12-2010, 09:57 AM
damn...time to go recruiting.

A guy who is a coordinator for a local district told us to expect another bump up of approximately the same magnitude. He claimed that this was always supposed to be a 2-year process.

NoSkillzAndy
11-12-2010, 05:47 PM
Okay, I'll take the bait. :-) How is learning your ranking on this day ruinous to USTA membership?

Assuming you're not being sarcastic... He's alluding to the notion that massive NTRP bump-ups might upset the player base to the point where significantly less people will participate in USTA leagues and USTA tournaments.

tennisplayer3275
11-13-2010, 02:16 PM
According to one of the Colorado USTA Directors, this year's move up would not be simlar to last year's. This year is supposed to be a normal movement. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Islandtennis
11-14-2010, 05:39 AM
According to one of the Colorado USTA Directors, this year's move up would not be simlar to last year's. This year is supposed to be a normal movement. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

3275 is right except for the 4.5 and up levels.

tennis_tater
11-14-2010, 06:49 AM
3275 is right except for the 4.5 and up levels.

We've heard the opposite from our state league coordinator, who has told us to expect the same bump up as last season. I'm not sure any of these guys really know. Guess we'll all find out soon enough.

Cindysphinx
11-14-2010, 06:54 AM
My guess is that this year will be "normal." A good number of people who were bumped last year will move back down, especially the seniors who were bumped up based on seniors results but then got hammered at their new level.

Which means that those of us who were on top of our rating level in 2010 will now have more competition.

As for me, I expect to stay 3.5 based on some lame results at the tail end of the spring season. That's OK. And if I get bumped up, that will be OK too although I'd rather stay 3.5 one more season.

rainman007
11-14-2010, 08:32 AM
My guess is that this year will be "normal." A good number of people who were bumped last year will move back down, especially the seniors who were bumped up based on seniors results but then got hammered at their new level.

Which means that those of us who were on top of our rating level in 2010 will now have more competition.

As for me, I expect to stay 3.5 based on some lame results at the tail end of the spring season. That's OK. And if I get bumped up, that will be OK too although I'd rather stay 3.5 one more season.

In my opinion, the formula will be back to normal but more bump ups will occur than normal because of the bump ups from last year.. For example a player that should have stayed 3.5 but got bumped to 4.0 because extra points were added to the formula had to play 4.0.. All the average 4.0's that beat the 4.0 who should have been a 3.5 would get bumped this year. That should happen across the board on every level.. however in my opinion i have no proof i dont think they added any points to the formula this year it would just be a reflection of what happened last year.. I dont have a clue though just an opinon.

rainman007
11-14-2010, 08:34 AM
My guess is that this year will be "normal." A good number of people who were bumped last year will move back down, especially the seniors who were bumped up based on seniors results but then got hammered at their new level.

Which means that those of us who were on top of our rating level in 2010 will now have more competition.

As for me, I expect to stay 3.5 based on some lame results at the tail end of the spring season. That's OK. And if I get bumped up, that will be OK too although I'd rather stay 3.5 one more season.

Oh and i bet only like 3 percent of players get moved down.. Their idea in starting this was to get more 4.5 players i think, but all the process really did was make a new self rated players beginning level a 3.0 instead of 2.5

Ennismt
11-14-2010, 01:35 PM
Yea, I am curious whether the bump ups that got beat regularly will stay or be moved down based on this year's play. This will affect a lot of the ratings. If they move back down, then I wonder what the bump ups did in the first place. If they stay, then there will likely be another shift but based more on play than computer adjustment.

dizzlmcwizzl
11-15-2010, 07:55 AM
We've heard the opposite from our state league coordinator, who has told us to expect the same bump up as last season. I'm not sure any of these guys really know. Guess we'll all find out soon enough.

Yea... same here. I was told to expect the same magnitude of inflation

J_R_B
11-15-2010, 09:43 AM
Did the USTA have the "adjustment" in the Early Start ratings last year? Or were there a lot of differences from the early start to the year-end rankings? It doesn't look like there is a lot of unusual movement (in or out of 4.0 anyway) in the early start ratings for Eastern or Middle States.

dizzlmcwizzl
11-15-2010, 10:07 AM
Did the USTA have the "adjustment" in the Early Start ratings last year? Or were there a lot of differences from the early start to the year-end rankings? It doesn't look like there is a lot of unusual movement (in or out of 4.0 anyway) in the early start ratings for Eastern or Middle States.

In the middle states no indication of movement happened in Early Start last year ... this led to a lot of players that finished the mix season playing below their year end ratings.

You cannot read year end movement from the early start movement. Last year the adding of points to peoples ratings occured at the very end, after early start.

Islandtennis
11-16-2010, 05:03 AM
It will be a normal bump up, but there will not be very many bump downs.

JoelDali
11-16-2010, 05:53 AM
I just got back from White Plains where I saw a glimpse of the bump algorithm.

If your overall win record was 75% and you use lead tape, you will be bumped to 4.5.

If you complain and wear anything but Nike shoes and use a Babloat, you will be bumped down to 3.5.

I hope this works out for all of you, that is all.

http://cdn.bloginity.com/wp-content/uploads/spock.jpg

vizsla
11-16-2010, 06:05 AM
It will be a normal bump up, but there will not be very many bump downs.

Are you in SC? Did you hear the above from your local and/or state coordinator?

NoSkillzAndy
11-16-2010, 06:16 AM
I just got back from White Plains where I saw a glimpse of the bump algorithm.

If your overall win record was 75% and you use lead tape, you will be bumped to 4.5.

If you complain and wear anything but Nike shoes and use a Babloat, you will be bumped down to 3.5.

I hope this works out for all of you, that is all.

http://cdn.bloginity.com/wp-content/uploads/spock.jpg

People on this forum sure have a strange sense of humor... :???:

tennismonkey
11-16-2010, 06:17 AM
anyone know how mixed doubles results are calculated?

wrxinsc
11-16-2010, 08:10 AM
^ not calculated unless you only play mixed. then you receive a mixed exclusive rating.

JavierLW
11-16-2010, 03:30 PM
Assuming you're not being sarcastic... He's alluding to the notion that massive NTRP bump-ups might upset the player base to the point where significantly less people will participate in USTA leagues and USTA tournaments.

Yes that is exactly what I am alluding to.

I am always for players getting bumped up when they exceed to a certain extent.

But to do it to that extent all at once was nuts.

You take 50% of all the 3.0's and throw them in 3.5. And then 35% of all the 3.5's and move them to 4.0.

Sure on paper you figure you might have enough players to have a 3.0 league. And same with 3.5, and 4.0.

But in some cases, guess again. A captain that loses half of their players may only run one team. Which means that either half of his players simply wont play, or they had better hope some other captain picks them up. Logistically you cant expect that they necessarily will. (or that there will be enough captains/teams left to pick up all of the numbers you estimate are out there)

I decided to go out of my way and run two teams, but most people wont, it's hard enough to run one.

It was a bad idea, but if they only did it once it could have some benefit. But if they do it every single year, then that just proves that they are morons and they are too unaware to care about getting more participants.

And again that's speaking from someone that thinks that more players should of been bumped up all along. But to go to that extent every year is going way too far.

kylebarendrick
11-16-2010, 04:39 PM
I would think there would be some extra bumps from 4.0 and 4.5 this year as a result of the people who had been 3.5s playing at 4.0. I would hope 3.0 and 3.5 would be pretty static this year.

Angle Queen
11-16-2010, 04:54 PM
It will be a normal bump up, but there will not be very many bump downs.I'm inclined to lean this way too.

I think I'll put some of the biggest whiners on my Watch List and see what happens to them. After all their complaining about being moved up, most of them held their own, thank you very much. I look forward to being crushed by them, again, next season. LOL

All-in-all, though, I think The Bump worked well for the 3.5 women in our area. There's still some sandbagging mess but that's another story. The most important aspect of last year's "adjustments" IMHO was the No-Appeal portion for the vast majority of players. I know several people who were repeatedly bumped...then appealed back down.

michael_1265
11-16-2010, 05:58 PM
I'm inclined to lean this way too.

I think I'll put some of the biggest whiners on my Watch List and see what happens to them. After all their complaining about being moved up, most of them held their own, thank you very much. I look forward to being crushed by them, again, next season. LOL

All-in-all, though, I think The Bump worked well for the 3.5 women in our area. There's still some sandbagging mess but that's another story. The most important aspect of last year's "adjustments" IMHO was the No-Appeal portion for the vast majority of players. I know several people who were repeatedly bumped...then appealed back down.

At least you're not whining about it. I looked at your record, and you have very little chance of staying a 3.5. You racked up a bushel of wins this year :-)

Cindysphinx
11-16-2010, 05:59 PM
But in some cases, guess again. A captain that loses half of their players may only run one team. Which means that either half of his players simply wont play, or they had better hope some other captain picks them up. Logistically you cant expect that they necessarily will. (or that there will be enough captains/teams left to pick up all of the numbers you estimate are out there)



I think we have enough data to see if the dire predictions that the mass bump would kill USTA came true.

In my league, we have the following pre- and post-bump numbers for numbers of teams at certain levels:

2009 Ladies 3.5 adult: 20 teams, 356 players
2010 Ladies 3.5 adult: 23 teams, 394 players

2009 Fall 7.5 Ladies Combo: 12 team, 189 players
2010 Fall 7.5 Ladies Combo: 15 teams, 238 players

2009 Men's 4.0 adult: 12 team, 209 players
2010 Men's 4.0 adult: 13 teams, 235 players

Is the story different in other leagues? 'Cause around here, the mass bump seems to have increased player participation if it had any effect at all.

michael_1265
11-16-2010, 06:00 PM
I think we have enough data to see if the dire predictions that the mass bump would kill USTA came true.

In my league, we have the following pre- and post-bump numbers for numbers of teams at certain levels:

2009 Ladies 3.5 adult: 20 teams, 356 players
2010 Ladies 3.5 adult: 23 teams, 394 players

2009 Fall 7.5 Ladies Combo: 12 team, 189 players
2010 Fall 7.5 Ladies Combo: 15 teams, 238 players

2009 Men's 4.0 adult: 12 team, 209 players
2010 Men's 4.0 adult: 13 teams, 235 players

Is the story different in other leagues? 'Cause around here, the mass bump seems to have increased player participation if it had any effect at all.

What about 3.0? We lost an entire flight in men's in the Richmond area.

dizzlmcwizzl
11-16-2010, 06:21 PM
Is the story different in other leagues? 'Cause around here, the mass bump seems to have increased player participation if it had any effect at all.

In the delaware district the total number swelled as well. We killed the 3.0 men's division but 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 men / women all increased in number by more than the 3.0 ranks were depleted.

Where the problem shone through was in the competitiveness of the new teams. I think from 3.5-4.5 there were 3 new teams with above 500 records.

In the 4.0 men's adult division half the league were established teams and the other half were new teams. For the entire season with each team playing 15 matches there were only 5-6 matches where a new team knocked off an established team.

Some of the lineups we put out there against the weaker teams were comical. Against some teams we were using an entire lineup of players who last season were emergency players ..... and winning easily.

Islandtennis
11-17-2010, 05:47 AM
Did you hear the above from your local and/or state coordinator?


No, its more reliable than that.

Jim A
11-17-2010, 06:31 AM
When it comes to # of teams at a level we need to also consider the # of players and teams that were playing "up" on a 2nd team.

From reading the boards it appears that quite a few 3.0 were playing 3.0/3.5, the 3.5's double dipping in 3.5/4.0.

We don't have that here in Intermountain-CO. You can only play 1 division per season. I didn't see a drop in 3.0 teams when looking back and there was no shortage of 3.5 around Denver. In fact our group went from not having a 3.5 last year to (2) this season (Wash Park).

The lower rated levels of 2.5/3.0 should be lower so people don't walk in and get rolled.

What it comes down to for most people that I've met around here at least is that there are other options. There are enough public ladders and courts, that satisfy a lot of people without joining and organization. My ladder opponent the other day had no idea of an USTA league. If you didn't play either out of a tennis club at one point or a large public facility like Gates, you have no exposure to the USTA.

In addition, a player can sign up on the USTA site for information and be a free-agent, however becoming part of a team is purely a one-way process if a captain calls. Then you have to decide if in most cases you want to join the team. What originally looked like a $21 registration fee now has club dues, court fees, drills etc...

Another thing to consider for a lot of players is that they may have taken the year off due to the economy. A 3.5 who didn't renew his club membership ($600) took 2 drills/mo @ 24ea for another 600 and 1 lesson/mo @$50...then throw in court time, equipment etc and its closing in on $3k without blinking an eye.

Adult leagues are, in my opinion, well down on the USTA to-do list. As long as there are enough players to help pay salaries and other programs its ok. There is a lot they can do, however it may not be beneficial for the cost.

tennismonkey
11-17-2010, 06:45 AM
Jim A -- you bring up an interesting point about tons of people that know nothing about usta leagues. i've love for the usta to grow game. maybe tell current league players that they'll give a discount for every new player they introduce to the usta and leagues. but the mere fact that they haven't done anything like this seems they are more than content with the number of people who play leagues and have no interest in making the sport more popular. kinda sad.

J_R_B
11-17-2010, 08:26 AM
In the delaware district the total number swelled as well. We killed the 3.0 men's division but 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 men / women all increased in number by more than the 3.0 ranks were depleted.

Where the problem shone through was in the competitiveness of the new teams. I think from 3.5-4.5 there were 3 new teams with above 500 records.

In the 4.0 men's adult division half the league were established teams and the other half were new teams. For the entire season with each team playing 15 matches there were only 5-6 matches where a new team knocked off an established team.

Some of the lineups we put out there against the weaker teams were comical. Against some teams we were using an entire lineup of players who last season were emergency players ..... and winning easily.

PA was like this, too. There were more players in total, but A LOT more teams. Some clubs had 3 or 4 teams where they only had one the year before. Combined with the stronger established teams losing more significant players to 4.5, the league was bigger but the teams were smaller and weaker. Our team that you joined at the end of the year was sub-0.500 the two previous years, but in the weakened league, we found ourselves competing for the the league title down to the very last match.

Cindysphinx
11-17-2010, 09:20 AM
What about 3.0? We lost an entire flight in men's in the Richmond area.

I don't know about men's 3.0 or ladies 2.5 or any of that. I only had so much time to pull some numbers together.

Here are some more numbers from our league:

2009 3.0 adult women: 21 teams, 346 players
2010 3.0 adult women: 13 teams, 230 players

2009 3.5 adult men: 9 teams, 170 players
2010 3.5 adult men: 7 teams, 25 players

Why would a league prevent people from playing more than one level?

robert
11-17-2010, 11:51 AM
Why would a league prevent people from playing more than one level?

usta only let you play up to 1 level above, i.e. 3.0 can play 3.5 but not 4.0.

Otherwise, what would you think if you see a player play 3.0, 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 league in the same season? Isn't it too obviously a sandbagger? :twisted:

Jim A
11-17-2010, 11:54 AM
Cindy, I can only speak for things how they are at Intermountain/CO.

I'm fine with playing at one level. Really if you are complaining about being bumped to 4.0 but are playing there anyway, what does it matter?

I also like that when I take the court, my opponent is at that level. There is enough difference between a good/avg/lower 3.5 that a 3.0 playing up to 3.5 or a 3.5 playing up to 4.0 typically does nothing but waste the other persons time. If I'm on a 4.0 team and another team are 3.5's playing up, its just a waste of a match for most players.

asked_answered
11-17-2010, 12:06 PM
I played in a men's 3.5 USTA league this fall, as a 2.5, so level limitations must vary by section.

SJS
11-17-2010, 12:22 PM
I played in a men's 3.5 USTA league this fall, as a 2.5, so level limitations must vary by section.

I think you are correct but one of the "major changes" for 2011 is that players can only play up one level.

Jim A
11-17-2010, 12:31 PM
what I meant is you could only play on one team
so you couldn't play 2.5 and 3.0, 3.0 and 3.5 etc

in addition a roster must have at least 75% of the roster at level, which means you could only have 2-3 players that were playing up. I like that since if most of the team was bumped then they can bring the remainder if everyone wants to stay together..

Cindysphinx
11-17-2010, 12:37 PM
I also like that when I take the court, my opponent is at that level. There is enough difference between a good/avg/lower 3.5 that a 3.0 playing up to 3.5 or a 3.5 playing up to 4.0 typically does nothing but waste the other persons time. If I'm on a 4.0 team and another team are 3.5's playing up, its just a waste of a match for most players.

I see your point, but I don't think playing a match against a lower-rated player is necessarily a waste of a match. Heck, my 4.0 partner and I lost a 7.5 combo match against two 3.5s just recently. And my 3.5 partner and I beat two 4.0s this spring.

As a captain, I like having some teams that are mostly players playing up. It gives me the chance to let my weaker players play more matches. It also allows me to experiment a bit with new pairings with minimal risk of losing the team match if the pairing is not a good one.

JoelDali
11-17-2010, 12:51 PM
Billie Jean King would do multiple face palms if she read these posts.

asked_answered
11-17-2010, 04:55 PM
I didn't know that, SJS. I'm glad I didn't wait until this coming spring to play.

HookEmJeff
11-17-2010, 05:50 PM
I don't know about men's 3.0 or ladies 2.5 or any of that. I only had so much time to pull some numbers together.

Here are some more numbers from our league:

2009 3.0 adult women: 21 teams, 346 players
2010 3.0 adult women: 13 teams, 230 players

2009 3.5 adult men: 9 teams, 170 players
2010 3.5 adult men: 7 teams, 25 players

Why would a league prevent people from playing more than one level?

How can there be 25 total players on seven teams? That's less than four people per team. Not possible???

Angle Queen
11-18-2010, 03:51 AM
^^

Maybe Cindy meant "125" players on the 7 teams. That would make more sense.

Still those are quite some drop offs, esp for the 3.0 women (over 100 lost). Their 3.5 womens numbers only went up by 50. Hmmmm.....

Cindysphinx
11-18-2010, 09:25 AM
Whoops! Yes, I meant 125 players.

The other variable is that our league changed a few things between 2009 and 2010. They moved seniors from the summer to January. I don't know if that led some of the seniors to play in January and skip the adult season?

obtn
11-19-2010, 06:28 AM
I don't know if this has been stated already, but there is a note at the top of USTA's website now:

"The 2010 year end rating calculation process is currently underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010."

Sucks for me since the only tournament I played was Nov 5-7.. was hoping to get a computer rating...

J_R_B
11-19-2010, 08:49 AM
I don't know if this has been stated already, but there is a note at the top of USTA's website now:

"The 2010 year end rating calculation process is currently underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010."

Sucks for me since the only tournament I played was Nov 5-7.. was hoping to get a computer rating...

Tournaments won't get you a C rating anyway. You need to play league matches to get a C rating.

Fedace
11-19-2010, 09:03 AM
How can there be 25 total players on seven teams? That's less than four people per team. Not possible???

Those people who were bumped up can play 4.0 and 4.5 level. Isnt' that wonderful ??? We need more players and Teams in the 4.5 level. this is a GREAT thing USTA is doing..:)

Fedace
11-19-2010, 09:04 AM
Don't be afraid of playing UP guys. 4.5 isn't as tough as it seems. and it will be fun for you. Play more 4.5 team tennis. I assure you it will be worth it and you will improve.

JoelDali
11-19-2010, 09:53 AM
Don't be afraid of playing UP guys. 4.5 isn't as tough as it seems. and it will be fun for you. Play more 4.5 team tennis. I assure you it will be worth it and you will improve.

No one wants to be on losing teams for $42.00 a match though. We want to dominate, not be blown off the court. We want to wear hot outfits and compare lead tape positions. Then when playoffs come, we let the SR Sandbaggers play since they only played 2 matches all year and thats so unfair. We watch from the sidelines and Twitter that we made it to Nationals and get chicks and stuff, but we don't play cuz its sandbagger payback time.

http://www.leaveittobeaver.org/images/letter1.jpg

njsigman
11-19-2010, 09:58 AM
LOL. Nice one, JoelDali!! :)

Fedace
11-19-2010, 11:12 AM
No one wants to be on losing teams for $42.00 a match though. We want to dominate, not be blown off the court. We want to wear hot outfits and compare lead tape positions. Then when playoffs come, we let the SR Sandbaggers play since they only played 2 matches all year and thats so unfair. We watch from the sidelines and Twitter that we made it to Nationals and get chicks and stuff, but we don't play cuz its sandbagger payback time.

http://www.leaveittobeaver.org/images/letter1.jpg

Those guys that watch from the sidelines,,,,do they get that nice Silver plate for the Winner of the nationals,,,too ??? If so,,,i say it is worth it....LOL. and who pays $42 per Match ????????????? you mean for the entire season,,,right ??:shock:

JoelDali
11-19-2010, 11:19 AM
Those guys that watch from the sidelines,,,,do they get that nice Silver plate for the Winner of the nationals,,,too ??? If so,,,i say it is worth it....LOL. and who pays $42 per Match ????????????? you mean for the entire season,,,right ??:shock:

$42 is what it averages out to when you include USTA fee, court fee, gas, balls and monthly HGH injections.

We had a pharm chick that injected our ringers bi monthly for $85 a pop. Guns were a' blazing indeed. This is serious stuff, check my sig.

http://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/211greg-1.jpg

azentropy
11-19-2010, 01:37 PM
I don't know if this has been stated already, but there is a note at the top of USTA's website now:

"The 2010 year end rating calculation process is currently underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010."

Sucks for me since the only tournament I played was Nov 5-7.. was hoping to get a computer rating...

Yep has been posted for a while now. Curious why if it is only counting matches through October 31st why it takes them 4 weeks to process though...

njsigman
11-19-2010, 02:34 PM
It's funny. I really think they sit on those ratings to make us suffer. Dying to know for sure, but I have a feeling I am staying put at my current ratings. :(

Angle Queen
11-20-2010, 06:05 AM
Curious why if it is only counting matches through October 31st why it takes them 4 weeks to process though...Me too. If it's truly a dynamic rating, like they've been telling us for years, why is there any processing to do at all? And why wouldn't they include the final batches of Nationals? Perhaps they'd want a week or so to run some variance reports....but still, the process is overdrawn.

J_R_B
11-20-2010, 07:02 AM
Me too. If it's truly a dynamic rating, like they've been telling us for years, why is there any processing to do at all? And why wouldn't they include the final batches of Nationals? Perhaps they'd want a week or so to run some variance reports....but still, the process is overdrawn.

They do have the computer results immediately. That's what the early start ratings are. I assume the time between early start and year end ratings is time for them to get together by committee and decide if they like the computer results or if they want to make some adjustments like they did last year.

JavierLW
11-20-2010, 07:30 AM
They do have the computer results immediately. That's what the early start ratings are. I assume the time between early start and year end ratings is time for them to get together by committee and decide if they like the computer results or if they want to make some adjustments like they did last year.

A year end rating is usually 50% your dynamic rating, and 50% your benchmark rating if you have one. (a benchmark rating is your results from the highest level of competition if you made the playoffs)

At least that's what it was when they invented the DNTRP system, obviously they've tweaked it a lot since then to make adjustments.

What they did last year was they just simply remapped the numbers, so if you would of had a 3.83 rating for example, they decided that it would be the new 4.0 or something like that....

I suspect a early start rating is the dynamic rating at the time.

njsigman
11-20-2010, 11:41 AM
Only 9 days to go until the USTA graces us with the information that they already have ready to go... :)

EZRA
11-20-2010, 12:39 PM
Those people who were bumped up can play 4.0 and 4.5 level. Isnt' that wonderful ??? We need more players and Teams in the 4.5 level. this is a GREAT thing USTA is doing..:)

There's a drawback though. Real 4.5's paid $$ to play a good competitive match. When they come across underserving bump-ups, it's no fun at all. I played a match a few weeks ago. My partner was late and the opposing team demanded some free games. They started out with a 3 game lead and the first ones to serve. Final score was 6-3, 6-2. I really want to pay USTA and drive 30 miles to play that kind of a lopsided match.

Honestly, I'd rather have a double-round robin match against 4 other solid 4.5 teams than have single round robiin matches against 15 watered-down 4.5 teams.

Fedace
11-20-2010, 06:00 PM
There's a drawback though. Real 4.5's paid $$ to play a good competitive match. When they come across underserving bump-ups, it's no fun at all. I played a match a few weeks ago. My partner was late and the opposing team demanded some free games. They started out with a 3 game lead and the first ones to serve. Final score was 6-3, 6-2. I really want to pay USTA and drive 30 miles to play that kind of a lopsided match.

Honestly, I'd rather have a double-round robin match against 4 other solid 4.5 teams than have single round robiin matches against 15 watered-down 4.5 teams.

We need to play these recent newbie bump ups if you want to promote tennis in USA. It is for the GOOD of the GAME. :)

EZRA
11-20-2010, 09:07 PM
We need to play these recent newbie bump ups if you want to promote tennis in USA. It is for the GOOD of the GAME. :)

Actually - there's been an opposite reaction after these bump-ups happened A lot of people I know are skipping league play this season because of the fact that they're not getting good quality tennis with the price they're paying for. Here in NYC area, they charge us 35$ per match with an hour and a half of game time. Hardly worth it, right?

JoelDali
11-21-2010, 07:57 PM
Actually - there's been an opposite reaction after these bump-ups happened A lot of people I know are skipping league play this season because of the fact that they're not getting good quality tennis with the price they're paying for. Here in NYC area, they charge us 35$ per match with an hour and a half of game time. Hardly worth it, right?

For singles yes.

For mixed or #3 men's doubles, no.

Its $37 actually from what I hear.

EZRA
11-21-2010, 09:12 PM
Even if the score in singles was 6-1 6-1.. Still worth it?
I hardly think USTA metro matches are hardly worth it at all... Any match.. Mixed, tri-level, etc..

puck1230
11-22-2010, 02:56 AM
I've enjoyed the Metro 4.0 league experience so far:

After not playing since high school, I joined the Men's 3.5 Manhattan league in 2008, then played in the Queen's 4.0 league in 2009, and this year, played in 4.0 Men's in Manhattan, Long Island, and Westchester leagues.

For me, it's been a great way to develop both my professional and tennis network. While not every match is a great "fit," there aren't too many ways to get a sense of team tennis competition, or general tennis competition in the Metro area. Private clubs with internal leagues are even more expensive than the league, not to mention scarce. My team has been great; no politics or quarreling for play time, making the playoffs each year helps, not to mention an experienced and organize captain. I'd say that the personality of captain really defines the attitude of the team, so if you joined a team with a not so great captain, you're not going to enjoy it as much.

Tennis is an expensive sport. It is not accessible for everyone, and in the Metro area, this is even more true. The men's league in MANHATTAN is 38 dollars for 2 hours of indoor court time, 25(?) in Queens, not sure about Brooklyn. Mixed Dubs is 1.5 hours. Given court time costs in Manhattan, and demand of indoor court time for when the leagues run (mixed runs in the winter), I can see where the high costs come from.

If you have a great network of tennis players to hit and play with, and can travel to tournaments for matches every week year round for cheap, then there's less incentive for USTA league play. For many of us who play in Metro, we know it could be better, but there's really nowhere to jump to if you want a tennis "fix."

EZRA
11-22-2010, 04:31 AM
Puck: If you're looking for a competitive atmosphere when playing, yeah, there's really not much available for Metro folks. But for a tennis fix, gathering people you know and have social/friendly matches is a lot cheaper than paying 38/person.

This is why I said that USTA matches is not worth it. If you can have better matches with people you know and pay less for court fees, playing USTA seems unjustifiable somehow.

---

heninfan99
11-22-2010, 11:25 AM
I thought last year's bump up was excellent. Those captains that lost 1/2 their team or more were working the rating system to begin with --or at least their players were. I was amazed by how well it worked. All the players I know that were bumped had no problem finding a team.
But one & done, I hope. To do it again, I agree, would be nuts.
The tricky part where I live/play is defining what a 4.5 is. There doesn't seem to be enough 4.5s in my neck of the woods to make league with multiple teams.
Is the part-time tennis teacher a 4.5 or a 5.0? The 4.5 teams fill in their cracks with 4.0s so the range of talent level is huge though the numbers are small.


Yes that is exactly what I am alluding to.

I am always for players getting bumped up when they exceed to a certain extent.

But to do it to that extent all at once was nuts.

You take 50% of all the 3.0's and throw them in 3.5. And then 35% of all the 3.5's and move them to 4.0.

Sure on paper you figure you might have enough players to have a 3.0 league. And same with 3.5, and 4.0.

But in some cases, guess again. A captain that loses half of their players may only run one team. Which means that either half of his players simply wont play, or they had better hope some other captain picks them up. Logistically you cant expect that they necessarily will. (or that there will be enough captains/teams left to pick up all of the numbers you estimate are out there)

I decided to go out of my way and run two teams, but most people wont, it's hard enough to run one.

It was a bad idea, but if they only did it once it could have some benefit. But if they do it every single year, then that just proves that they are morons and they are too unaware to care about getting more participants.

And again that's speaking from someone that thinks that more players should of been bumped up all along. But to go to that extent every year is going way too far.

JavierLW
11-22-2010, 11:38 AM
I thought last year's bump up was excellent. Those captains that lost 1/2 their team or more were working the rating system to begin with --or at least their players were. I was amazed by how well it worked.
But one & done, I hope. All the players I know that were bumped had no problem find a team.

Id say it's excellent in some respects as it cleaned out all the people that were cheating. And it brought the levels closer to what honest teaching pros would say were where players belonged.

But I dont agree that every team that lost 1/2 of their players were working the rating system, that's not really accurate.

The problem had been that it was so out of whack for so long that even if you're a 2nd or 3rd or 4th place teams, just to stay competitive you'd naturally get players that fit in with the other players you are seeing.

They wouldnt get rated out not because you're "working the system" but because they were either competitive with the other ringers or they got clobbered somewhere along the way themselves even though they might be clobbering everyone else.

Our team was like that a couple years ago, we took 2nd place and had a 35-15 record, but we lost 1-4 twice to the first place team that went 42-8.

I can see in some local leagues where they intervene more to help the creation of teams and players it probably hurt less then an area like mine where they mainly just cater to the same teams that win in the playoffs every year and they dont even do a great job finding new players to fill in all the gaps at 3.0 and 3.5.

BustedString
11-22-2010, 11:42 AM
I suspect a early start rating is the dynamic rating at the time.

That's exactly what it is. The pre-Benchmark calculation number. And you are also correct on the 50%, per the USTA:

"End of year ratings are based 50% on a player’s cumulative dynamic rating during the season, and 50% on comparison to national benchmark players. (A national benchmark player is a player who participated in a national championship event.)"

I'd really love to see the logic in the Benchmark algorithm.

I'm guessing we will see the '10 ratings on Sunday night in my area, which is exactly when we saw them last year. I need to start building my summer teams now!

Angle Queen
11-22-2010, 01:12 PM
That's exactly what it is. The pre-Benchmark calculation number. And you are also correct on the 50%, per the USTA:

"End of year ratings are based 50% on a player’s cumulative dynamic rating during the season, and 50% on comparison to national benchmark players. (A national benchmark player is a player who participated in a national championship event.)"

I'd really love to see the logic in the Benchmark algorithm.You and me both. If a team from your local flight didn't go to Nationals, it's rare to play against a "Nationals" player. Although I/we got that rare chance to play against some 2010 "Nationals" players (we lost -1 and -4 to them at Sectionals), there can't be many others with that direct of a relationship. And, to my knowledge, I/we didn't play against anyone who'd been to Nationals in '09. I wonder if the algorithm is sophisticated enough to do a who-played-who, then lost/won to who and by how much. Kind of a start at the top...and work your way down. Man, I'd hate to have to program that one. It'd be as bad as trying to figure out how related the President is...to the Queen of England. :p

JavierLW
11-22-2010, 01:33 PM
That's exactly what it is. The pre-Benchmark calculation number. And you are also correct on the 50%, per the USTA:

"End of year ratings are based 50% on a player’s cumulative dynamic rating during the season, and 50% on comparison to national benchmark players. (A national benchmark player is a player who participated in a national championship event.)"

I'd really love to see the logic in the Benchmark algorithm.

I'm guessing we will see the '10 ratings on Sunday night in my area, which is exactly when we saw them last year. I need to start building my summer teams now!

I always think that this is exactly what screws the system up sometimes, especially before the latest move up.

The reason being that in a lot of cases especially, the teams that move onto nationals are the least likely to represent their specific level, not the most likely.

Prior to DNTRP, it was horrible because your benchmark rating WAS your rating, so it always created this phenomenon where the 2nd and 3rd place teams might lose a ton of players if they had ANY success against the first place team, but the first place would never lose anyone because they for the most part get killed at some level of the playoffs (and when they kicked everyone's behinds in the local league those scores were thrown out as being less important...).

(which is why despite all of our complaining, I still feel we are in a lot better shape now then we were 10 years ago)

Bama Bear
11-22-2010, 01:51 PM
Any word if the year end ratings will be published around the same time as years prior (usually the Monday after Thanksgiving)??? Monday November 29th!

Bama Bear
11-22-2010, 01:54 PM
Thanks for the info. I hope to be moved up to 3.5, but I might be borderline.. :neutral:

Do an automatic appeal.

BustedString
11-22-2010, 01:58 PM
Do an automatic appeal.

Unless you've played 6 matches....

JavierLW
11-22-2010, 02:02 PM
Unless you've played 6 matches....

You can probably still "do one", you just wont win. :-)

Seems easier to program if everyone has that button, but maybe they selectively have it out there already anyway.

BustedString
11-22-2010, 02:04 PM
Prior to DNTRP, it was horrible because your benchmark rating WAS your rating, so it always created this phenomenon where the 2nd and 3rd place teams might lose a ton of players if they had ANY success against the first place team, but the first place would never lose anyone because they for the most part get killed at some level of the playoffs (and when they kicked everyone's behinds in the local league those scores were thrown out as being less important...).


I'm still clueless on the benchmark's and I went to a DLC training class on ratings in '08. I mean I theoretically get it but it is still confusing. It is going to have to be a really complex algorithm if they do it on the by player level and at what point do you stop it from being an infinite loop and how many degrees of separation are there?

Or, do they take a factor from how each team from each local did at each level and apply that? Like if your local team lost badly at districts, then your team gets a weaker factor to dilute your rating or vice versa if they do well?

I'm not thrilled with how much they publicize the Benchmark, for personal reasons. Last year the 3.5 team I captained made Nationals and then when every 3.5 and their brother in our local area got rated up, all the league coordinators said it was because my team made Nationals and raised the Benchmarks for our area. I had several people approach me and "thank" me for their new 4.0 rating, that was clearly an unwelcome bump up for them.

JavierLW
11-22-2010, 02:17 PM
I'm still clueless on the benchmark's and I went to a DLC training class on ratings in '08. I mean I theoretically get it but it is still confusing. It is going to have to be a really complex algorithm if they do it on the by player level and at what point do you stop it from being an infinite loop and how many degrees of separation are there?

Or, do they take a factor from how each team from each local did at each level and apply that? Like if your local team lost badly at districts, then your team gets a weaker factor to dilute your rating or vice versa if they do well?

I'm not thrilled with how much they publicize the Benchmark, for personal reasons. Last year the 3.5 team I captained made Nationals and then when every 3.5 and their brother in our local area got rated up, all the league coordinators said it was because my team made Nationals and raised the Benchmarks for our area. I had several people approach me and "thank" me for their new 4.0 rating, that was clearly an unwelcome bump up for them.

Ya, but they are half right. They are wrong about it being about how you guys are "benchmarks" because that doesnt increase their odds either way, but they are obviously right that you going to Nationals does affect them in a strong way.

Although unless you were sandbagging scores like some team I know of in my area that went to Nationals did, and screwing with the rating system that way, they most likely have competitive players themselves that deserved to get bumped up if they did well enough against the players that went to Nationals.

Im not sure when the local league results get applyed, but from what I remember they rate the players from the top 4 teams at a particular level and that's their benchmark rating.

Then they rate the rest of the players from nationals using the first set of players ratings and those are then benchmark ratings.

Then they go down to the sectionals and do the same thing based off of what the players at nationals were given.

Then districts, and all the way down to the local league.

But ya, as far as when they add DNTRP rating in, I have no clue either. Or what you do for players who are in the playoffs for more then one level.

Although I'd imagine that still, the highest level they reach is their benchmark rating, and all other playoffs are just part of their DNTRP. If they dont win sectionals for example in either 3.5 or 4.0, (if you can even do both), Id imagine that there is no reason why all of their matches at 3.5 and 4.0 could be their benchmark rating.

If they lost at districts however in 4.0, but went to sectionals in 3.5, then those 4.0 district matches are not part of their benchmark anyway, since DNTRP is just all of your matches in order, regardless of level.

It's still interesting though when they get back down to the local level and they have benchmark ratings for some people, do they run the DNTRP process again??? So their are re-rating matches with ratings that didnt even occur yet when the match was played?

And if you dont think that happens, then how does going to nationals affect anyone else that just happened to play them in the local league. (it seems it does although in the case I saw it was tainted because the team was sandbagging the scores which could screw things up anyway)

Bama Bear
11-22-2010, 02:17 PM
What about 3.0? We lost an entire flight in men's in the Richmond area. The 2.5 and 3.0 local leagues and at state tournament are almost to the point of non-exsistance. I 'll contribute this to the rule 3 yrs ago that was put in place that states any player who attends the state tournament or beyond has no appeal for a year. You were warned. A drastic decrease in 3.0 tennis. This will eventually do the same harm to 3.5 tennis. In the southern section and maybe nation wide any capt, etc. who signs up 6 new players in 2.5 or 3.0 will receive a 200.00 cash bonus. As you can see their intial ruling 3 yrs ago seems to be biting them back. If these brain surgeons would only listen to the players??????

BustedString
11-22-2010, 02:21 PM
The 2.5 and 3.0 local leagues and at state tournament are almost to the point of non-exsistance. I 'll contribute this to the rule 3 yrs ago that was put in place that states any player who attends the state tournament or beyond has no appeal for a year. You were warned. A drastic decrease in 3.0 tennis. This will eventually do the same harm to 3.5 tennis. In the southern section and maybe nation wide any capt, etc. who signs up 6 new players in 2.5 or 3.0 will receive a 200.00 cash bonus. As you can see their intial ruling 3 yrs ago seems to be biting them back. If these brain surgeons would only listen to the players??????

In my area we never had 2.5 leagues for men. We did see a 1/3 reduction in the # of 3.0 teams but there was a slight increase in the # of 3.5 teams and a huge increase in the # of 4.0 teams which more than offset that loss. As a mid-level 4.0, I will attest to the fact that the league was very diluted this year and I did have many boring matches.

With that said, my section recently published that league #'s for our section were higher this year than any other prior year. So I guess the upwards shift didn't hurt as much as I would have predicted. I'm OK with the new paradigm but I went undefeated in my local area at 4.0 and I'm worried that some year (not this) I will rate up to 4.5 if that continues and there's no way I'm a 4.5.

JavierLW
11-22-2010, 02:22 PM
The 2.5 and 3.0 local leagues and at state tournament are almost to the point of non-exsistance. I 'll contribute this to the rule 3 yrs ago that was put in place that states any player who attends the state tournament or beyond has no appeal for a year. You were warned. A drastic decrease in 3.0 tennis. This will eventually do the same harm to 3.5 tennis. In the southern section and maybe nation wide any capt, etc. who signs up 6 new players in 2.5 or 3.0 will receive a 200.00 cash bonus. As you can see their intial ruling 3 yrs ago seems to be biting them back. If these brain surgeons would only listen to the players??????

Ya but that was a good rule, if you keep going to the playoffs and you get moved up, there is no reason why you should keep appealing. That was keeping just as many players out as you think it was keeping people in.

2.5 and 3.0 should be for players that are really 2.5 and 3.0, which includes a lot of new players who are just getting into the game.

If your league was dying there before this latest bump up, that's likely because your league is not doing anything to go find new players who are interested in tennis. (ones who have just taken quickstart lessons, etc....)

Otherwise they shouldnt be in the business of just picking up certain levels over another. If you have 40 players that are in 3.5 and they used to be at 3.0, that's a good thing. There is no reason why they had to stay at 3.0 just for the purposes of having playoffs, or whatever....

BustedString
11-22-2010, 02:23 PM
It's still interesting though when they get back down to the local level and they have benchmark ratings for some people, do they run the DNTRP process again??? So their are re-rating matches with ratings that didnt even occur yet when the match was played?

I'm curious to see if I'm going to be a Benchmark this year. I made it to flight playoffs which doesn't appear to qualify one as a Benchmark but the way it was set up in TL, I think we are going to be Benchmark.

njsigman
11-22-2010, 04:29 PM
Do an automatic appeal.

I played in a "championship" hence, wherever I end up I will have the "benchmark" rating. And you cannot appeal those.. :(

JavierLW
11-22-2010, 05:27 PM
I'm curious to see if I'm going to be a Benchmark this year. I made it to flight playoffs which doesn't appear to qualify one as a Benchmark but the way it was set up in TL, I think we are going to be Benchmark.

In 2009, I made it to Area playoffs (is that the same as flight playoffs?), and the computer had me as a benchmark.

rainman007
11-22-2010, 06:55 PM
Im not sure when the local league results get applyed, but from what I remember they rate the players from the top 4 teams at a particular level and that's their benchmark rating.



You Only get a Benchmark (B) if you play at all at state or higher.. If you only play local you get a (C) rating for adult or an (M) for mixed exclusive.. Thats been my understanding unless it changed again..

JavierLW
11-22-2010, 07:24 PM
You Only get a Benchmark (B) if you play at all at state or higher.. If you only play local you get a (C) rating for adult or an (M) for mixed exclusive.. Thats been my understanding unless it changed again..

I received a benchmark after 2009 for playing in the local playoffs. You have to gauge the local players somehow after all I would think.

rainman007
11-22-2010, 07:46 PM
I received a benchmark after 2009 for playing in the local playoffs. You have to gauge the local players somehow after all I would think.

I definately cant argue with that if that happened to you.. That was just my understanding of how you got benchmarked. We've never had a local playoff it just awarded our local league winners by what they did in the season.. We havent had enough for two or more divisions. the most teams in a league ive played in since i started playing in 2005 is 5.. If there was a tie it just broke it down to games or sets or however it does it..
i would think to gauge the local players it would take into account the team that won your local division that went to state they would get benchmarked if they played at state.. How the 2nd through 10 place teams or how many ever teams there are in the local did would be measured against the team that won the local league who would be receiving the Benchmark...
Then if your local team that qualified for state got hammered it would probably lower everyone elses ratings in your local league.. If your local team hammered everyone else it would probably raise a lot of the ratings in the 2 through 10 teams.. I'm not sure though it probably is a complicating process.

g4driver
11-23-2010, 05:30 AM
"The 2010 year end rating calculation process is currently underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010"

I hear a lot of players in our local section Southern USTA Section tell me, "The Fall Season doesn't count for your NTRP rating."

If the fall season DOES NOT Count toward any year-end rating, why would the USTA make a blanket statement like the one above in red? Are there any Spring, Mixed, or Combo Doubles including playoffs that happen all the way to October? :confused:

If true, my 5-3 Spring Record counts towards my year-end rating, but not my 6-1 Fall Record. No worries, I will play 3.5 next year with a "C" rating, but I don't understand why the USTA would disregard any Fall Season matches, just because their is no Fall Playoff. I understand the USTA's desires to "measure" us against Benchmark players, but you can play a spring season and never play against a Benchmark player. All it takes is your being idle on the week(s) your team faces a team that made the playoffs.

Why wouldn't the USTA include all USTA matches for a given gender? It seems to me a Fall Men's and Women's League results are more valid and indicative of an actual rating, than either Mixed or Combo Leagues. The more variables in an equation, the more difficult the equation becomes.

The USTA's statement says " It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010". So matches played Nov 2, 2009 from Dec 31, 2009 factor toward your year-end rating.

Did I miss something or is Nov 2, 2009 - Dec 31, 2009 during the Fall 2009 Season? I played four matches during this period, so it seems they do in fact count toward a year-end rating. It seems many of our locals disagree with the USTA National.

JavierLW
11-23-2010, 05:34 AM
"The 2010 year end rating calculation process is currently underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010"

[COLOR=Black]I hear a lot of players in our local section Southern USTA Section tell me, "The Fall Season doesn't count for your NTRP rating"?



You heard "from a lot of players"? You need need to question how would they know?

Id trust the USTA's quote over that.

g4driver
11-23-2010, 06:19 AM
You heard "from a lot of players"? You need need to question how would they know?

Id trust the USTA's quote over that.

I also trust the USTA's statement over these local yocals. ;) I find many people love to tell you "This is a fact", yet rarely do any of these people ever produce a source document as a reference to validate their "facts".

A few months back while playing a friendly doubles match, I was a guest of a friend. In the very humid month of August, my hands were getting very sweaty, even with sweat bands.

I was at the net on the Ad Court just few feet from the bench where my towel lay. As one opponent was picking up a ball at the baseline, I grabbed my towel and began to dry my hands. While walking toward the net, the other opponent told me I couldn't dry my hands between points.

I asked him why any pro player is allowed to use a towel between points like the very sweaty Andy Roddick. He couldn't answer me so I asked if he had ever read "Rules of Tennis" published by the USTA. He just looked at me. I told him to look up "Continuous Play" as I finished drying my hands, then told him I had 20 seconds to eat, drink and be merry, and/or use a towel.

After the match, I told the guy, you shouldn't quote rules without reading and knowing them. And yes, we won the match. ;)

Kostas
11-23-2010, 07:10 AM
driver,

Not every section plays the same calendar as we do in the southern. Some sections have qualifying matches running late into October. Hell, the mixed national championships in AZ just finished last week I think so that would be included for M rating types. The statement applies to the whole country not just us.

Where abouts in the Southern Section are you?

catfish
11-23-2010, 07:16 AM
"The 2010 year end rating calculation process is currently underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010"

I hear a lot of players in our local section Southern USTA Section tell me, "The Fall Season doesn't count for your NTRP rating."

If the fall season DOES NOT Count toward any year-end rating, why would the USTA make a blanket statement like the one above in red? Are there any Spring, Mixed, or Combo Doubles including playoffs that happen all the way to October? :confused:

If true, my 5-3 Spring Record counts towards my year-end rating, but not my 6-1 Fall Record. No worries, I will play 3.5 next year with a "C" rating, but I don't understand why the USTA would disregard any Fall Season matches, just because their is no Fall Playoff. I understand the USTA's desires to "measure" us against Benchmark players, but you can play a spring season and never play against a Benchmark player. All it takes is your being idle on the week(s) your team faces a team that made the playoffs.

Why wouldn't the USTA include all USTA matches for a given gender? It seems to me a Fall Men's and Women's League results are more valid and indicative of an actual rating, than either Mixed or Combo Leagues. The more variables in an equation, the more difficult the equation becomes.

The USTA's statement says " It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010". So matches played Nov 2, 2009 from Dec 31, 2009 factor toward your year-end rating.

Did I miss something or is Nov 2, 2009 - Dec 31, 2009 during the Fall 2009 Season? I played four matches during this period, so it seems they do in fact count toward a year-end rating. It seems many of our locals disagree with the USTA National.

As an FYI, USTA Leagues are divided into Divisions, not seasons. Spring Season or Fall Season don't mean anything when you are talking about USTA leagues.

In USTA Leagues, rating calculations are figured based on Adult Division & Senior Division league play. Those leagues generate "C" or "B" computer ratings. Combo Division leagues are never used to calculate ratings. Adult Mixed is used only if a player did not play in Adult or Senior Division Leagues. Adult Mixed generates an "M" rating. USTA sanctioned tournaments can also be used in rating calculations, but we are only talking about leagues here. You can find this information about ratings if you click on the stick man with a racket on the TennisLink Leagues home page.

tennis_tater
11-23-2010, 08:31 AM
"The 2010 year end rating calculation process is currently underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010"

I hear a lot of players in our local section Southern USTA Section tell me, "The Fall Season doesn't count for your NTRP rating."

If the fall season DOES NOT Count toward any year-end rating, why would the USTA make a blanket statement like the one above in red? Are there any Spring, Mixed, or Combo Doubles including playoffs that happen all the way to October? :confused:

If true, my 5-3 Spring Record counts towards my year-end rating, but not my 6-1 Fall Record. No worries, I will play 3.5 next year with a "C" rating, but I don't understand why the USTA would disregard any Fall Season matches, just because their is no Fall Playoff. I understand the USTA's desires to "measure" us against Benchmark players, but you can play a spring season and never play against a Benchmark player. All it takes is your being idle on the week(s) your team faces a team that made the playoffs.

Why wouldn't the USTA include all USTA matches for a given gender? It seems to me a Fall Men's and Women's League results are more valid and indicative of an actual rating, than either Mixed or Combo Leagues. The more variables in an equation, the more difficult the equation becomes.

The USTA's statement says " It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010". So matches played Nov 2, 2009 from Dec 31, 2009 factor toward your year-end rating.

Did I miss something or is Nov 2, 2009 - Dec 31, 2009 during the Fall 2009 Season? I played four matches during this period, so it seems they do in fact count toward a year-end rating. It seems many of our locals disagree with the USTA National.

If you play Adult League, which is usually in the spring in the Southern Section, then your results in the spring are the only thing that counts. If your Adult league team advances to Sectionals in July and Nationals in October, then these matches count in your rating as well. If you play mixed in the summer and Southern Combo Doubles league in the fall, none of these matches are factored into your ratings.

If you don't play Adult league in the spring, but you play in Mixed league during the summer, then all of your mixed matches, beginning with the start of the season all the way through the National Championships in Oct./Nov. count towards your mixed exclusive rating. If you play in Southern Combo Doubles league in the fall, none of those matches are factored into your ratings.

If you don't play Adult league and if you don't play Mixed league, but you play Southern Combo Doubles, NONE of those matches are factored into your rating. Southern Combo Doubles results are NEVER factored into your year-end ratings.

g4driver
11-23-2010, 09:52 AM
Thanks for the replies folks. I called the USTA Southern Section and got my answer. There is no standard among various USTA areas as local authorities do have a say in what they want to include in year-end ratings to some extent. In SC, only Adult League play from the spring counts toward a year-end rating. The lady on the phone told me Atlanta uses updates from three times in each year. Her words not mine.

Catfish, I should have used the term "Spring League" and "Fall League", and not the word "Season". On the USTA Tennis Link Website, the USTA used the words "Fall Adult League" and "Spring Adult League".

Catfish, you also you wrote "You can find this information about ratings if you click on the stick man with a racket on the TennisLink Leagues home page." Actually, no, I couldn't. That link did not answer my question, and actually differs from what the Southern Section worker told me on the phone.

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/HelpTutorials/ac050000.html

From the video above, listen about half-way through the video just after the 2.5 to 7.0 with the giant 4.0 slide shows in the video, and you will hear the lady say, "Key Things to Note. All your matches count toward your year-end rating"

In South Carolina, "ALL" omits our "Fall Adult League". I guess, the USTA has a different definition of "ALL" than Mr. Webster. :confused:

In Aug 2007 I self-rate as a 3.5 in Nov of 2007 after a walking away from tennis in March 1999 as a 4.0. Three months later in Nov 2007, I herniate my L4/L5 disc and have two back surgeries (Laminectomy in March 2008, and a fusion in July 2008.) I don't pick up a frame until Aug 2009, so in 10.5 years I have less than four months of playing time, titanium screws and I self-rate at 3.5.

I'm a little rusty in the spring of 2010 still, but manage to go 5-3 all at #1 Singles on my Men's 3.5 Team. This fall my record was 6-1, but those matches don't count. If I stay at 3.5, I fully understand why the USTA has a problem with sandbagging. If the local leagues don't include matches from the Fall Leagues, and Self-Rated players only have a 8-9 week period that affects their rating, the local USTA League is making it easy to manipulate you rating. :shock:

A crafty 5th grader could exploit this loophole, and I am sure many do.

catfish
11-23-2010, 10:38 AM
Catfish, I should have used the term "Spring League" and "Fall League", and not the word "Season". On the USTA Tennis Link Website, the USTA used the words "Fall Adult League" and "Spring Adult League".

Catfish, you also you wrote "You can find this information about ratings if you click on the stick man with a racket on the TennisLink Leagues home page." Actually, no, I couldn't. That link did not answer my question, and actually differs from what the Southern Section worker told me on the phone.

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/HelpTutorials/ac050000.html

From the video above, listen about half-way through the video just after the 2.5 to 7.0 with the giant 4.0 slide shows in the video, and you will hear the lady say, "Key Things to Note. All your matches count toward your year-end rating"

In South Carolina, "ALL" omits our "Fall Adult League". I guess, the USTA has a different definition of "ALL" than Mr. Webster. :confused:

Local coordinators name their leagues. In this case, your area has Adult Division Leagues in the fall and spring. But the key component for determining what counts toward ratings is that these are Adult Division. It is my understanding that year end rating calculations have a cutoff date. Adult and Senior matches played after that cutoff date will be used to calculate your next years year end rating.

Take a look at page 5 of the 2011 National Regulations. This is a little more specific than the Tennislink tutorial. I copied it below.

Players without a NTRP published level are required to declare a self-rating on TennisLink
when entering the program regardless of the NTRP level they enter. They begin to generate a
dynamic rating after their first match with a Computer or Benchmark rated player.
7. In the USTA League Adult and Senior divisions, dynamic ratings will be calculated at regular
intervals for all participants during local league competition, at the end of the local league season,
and either during, or at the end of, Area through Section Championships.
8. At the USTA League Adult and Senior National Championships, players will continue to
generate dynamic ratings through their last match played; but, there will be no dynamic NTRP
disqualification at National Championships.
9. After the USTA League Adult and Senior National Championships, benchmark and year-end
NTRP published level will be calculated using USTA NTRP Computer Rating System Procedures
approved by the USTA League Committee.
10. In the Mixed Doubles Division, a NTRP published level will be calculated for participants who
play in that division exclusively. Year-end ratings will be based on the final dynamic rating
generated from local league and championship level competition.

g4driver
11-23-2010, 10:49 AM
Thanks Catfish.

So have your stuff together. I appreciate you replies and the source reference. We're about to get on the road for a six hour drive, but I want to read more and if you don't mind, I would love to ask you more questions specifically about:

7. In the USTA League Adult and Senior divisions, dynamic ratings will be calculated at regular
intervals for all participants during local league competition, at the end of the local league season,
and either during, or at the end of, Area through Section Championships.

I don't want to keep posting on this thread since my questions are specific can you accept PMs?

heninfan99
11-23-2010, 11:00 AM
If they're competive with "ringers" and clobbering everyone else then, I think, we agree they should be bumped up. I have one team member from this past year, IHMO, worthy of being bumped under pre-mass bump settings. We'll see.
I hear what you're saying, though. Teams had to do what they had to do to be competitive with the ringers.


They wouldnt get rated out not because you're "working the system" but because they were either competitive with the other ringers or they got clobbered somewhere along the way themselves even though they might be clobbering everyone else.

Islandtennis
11-23-2010, 12:07 PM
Thanks Catfish.

So have your stuff together. I appreciate you replies and the source reference. We're about to get on the road for a six hour drive, but I want to read more and if you don't mind, I would love to ask you more questions specifically about:

7. In the USTA League Adult and Senior divisions, dynamic ratings will be calculated at regular
intervals for all participants during local league competition, at the end of the local league season,
and either during, or at the end of, Area through Section Championships.

I don't want to keep posting on this thread since my questions are specific can you accept PMs?

G4, maybe I can help you out. In the next few weeks you will get a year end rating that you will know as a 3.5 or 3.0. Within the USTA computer though, you will be a 3.31 as an example. After every match that you play in your "Spring League" , you will get a new dynamic rating based on what your dynamic rating was right before you played the match, the rating of your opponent, and the score. This will happen after every match you play. However, you will be a 3.5 throughout the season regardless of how well or how poorly you do.

From your perspective, your Fall League should count; but as others have told you, your Fall League is not a National Program and may go well past the Oct. cutoff. Other areas also have different types of formats in the Fall; so there is no consistency. If you are sure that you are playing at the 4.0 level, play on a 4.0 team. You will in all probability get bumped up at the end of '11.

JavierLW
11-23-2010, 12:40 PM
From your perspective, your Fall League should count; but as others have told you, your Fall League is not a National Program and may go well past the Oct. cutoff. Other areas also have different types of formats in the Fall; so there is no consistency. If you are sure that you are playing at the 4.0 level, play on a 4.0 team. You will in all probability get bumped up at the end of '11.

It's true that lots of leagues cross that date boundary.

But it's not known whether the system really cares if you're playing a match within any given league or not. Think about it, you can play in 2 leagues at the sametime and the way DNTRP works, it takes each match you play one at a time anyway, it doesnt care what level they are at. Even on TennisLink they are all in the same list most of the time.

So it likely wouldnt be a big deal for the computer to just cut it off at the date. Which means part of the matches in that given league go toward the 2010 year end rating, and part of them go onto the 2011 year end rating.

ian2
11-24-2010, 07:26 AM
"The 2010 year end rating calculation process is currently underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010."

<If upon a cage of an elephant you will see a sign reading: "buffalo", do not believe your eyes.> 0.10 DNTRP points to anyone who can attribute this quote. But seriously, how did we get into discussion of seasons and which part of the season counts etc? Why not assume that it's exactly what USTA says: "matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010"?

Aside from the fact that it would seem common sense (admittedly not a strong argument when it comes to NTRP discussions), I can't imagine the DNTRP algorithm to be sophisticated enough to calculate differently for different sections/districts. It's a national system after all...

On the benchmark weight topic: do I understand correctly what someone quoted here - playoff results contribute 50% to one's rating for the year? Does it mean that my dismal performance in one sectional playoff match has as much weight as stellar performance in 40+ league and tournament matches this year?!

wrxinsc
11-24-2010, 08:47 AM
^ the system is pretty straight forward - according to USTA anyway....I have had the pleasure to meet with one of the few "yukity-yuks" that are in charge of the whole deal. they came to speak to our section. this gentleman was involved in designing the system to begin with.

as to ratings - so called usta adult leagues count (here in the south it is only our adult spring league). mixed leagues count if you only play mixed. some sections also count usta sanctioned tourney results other than combo matches.

that's it.

wrxinsc
11-24-2010, 08:50 AM
^ the system is pretty straight forward - according to USTA anyway....I have had the pleasure to meet with one of the few "yukity-yuks" that are in charge of the whole deal. they came to speak to our section. this gentleman was involved in designing the system to begin with.

as to ratings - so called usta adult leagues count (here in the south it is only our adult spring league). mixed leagues count if you only play mixed. some sections also count usta sanctioned tourney results other than combo matches.

that's it.

above i should have said adult/senior above...

g4driver
11-24-2010, 01:53 PM
f you are sure that you are playing at the 4.0 level, play on a 4.0 team. You will in all probability get bumped up at the end of '11.

I'm not looking to get bumped or to sandbag. I'm looking for a logical answer to something that doesn't make much sense to me. My goals in tennis are to: 1) get better, and 2) enjoy the process along the way. When I stop having fun, I will walk away from the game.

Our local rules only allow a max of four 3.5s on a 4.0 team. I understand the reason and respect the local league for this rule. Our club had two 4.0 teams and both were full. I tried to build another one, but couldn't get eight 4.0 players, so we weren't allowed to have a 4.0 team. It's life. No big deal.

I just noticed the Oct 31 cutoff, so I still ask, wouldn't it be better to use three or four matches from the fall to adjust a Year-End Rating? It seems a larger data sample (6 to 9 matches from the spring, and 3-4 matches from the fall) would produce a more accurate number. Who cares if the cutoff date is Oct 31. If a computer is doing the ratings (Dynamic Rating), it seems the cut-off date could be more like Dec 15, and kick out ratings on Dec 16. Maybe I expect too much from a computer program. ;)

rainman007
11-24-2010, 03:35 PM
i kinda thought the ratings woud be out tonight.. seems like they were suppose to be out the monday after thanksgiving last year but they came out the wed before..
guess not :(

njsigman
11-24-2010, 05:06 PM
I thought they would be out tonight as well. Looks like the bureaucrats in White Plains left work early and are leaving us wondering about our fate all weekend!

Islandtennis
11-24-2010, 05:14 PM
I just noticed the Oct 31 cutoff, so I still ask, wouldn't it be better to use three or four matches from the fall to adjust a Year-End Rating? It seems a larger data sample (6 to 9 matches from the spring, and 3-4 matches from the fall) would produce a more accurate number. Who cares if the cutoff date is Oct 31. If a computer is doing the ratings (Dynamic Rating), it seems the cut-off date could be more like Dec 15, and kick out ratings on Dec 16. Maybe I expect too much from a computer program. ;)

Yes, more data has the potential to give better results. If every local league was set up the same way as your local league, it would make sense. However each local league does their own thing after the Spring Season is over. It is impractical for the USTA on a national level to identify which local programs do give "good data" and which ones do not as it relates the algorithm used in the spring. If ratings came out in mid to late Dec., how do you think that would affect your Spring Signups.

g4driver
11-24-2010, 06:40 PM
Yes, more data has the potential to give better results. If every local league was set up the same way as your local league, it would make sense. However each local league does their own thing after the Spring Season is over. It is impractical for the USTA on a national level to identify which local programs do give "good data" and which ones do not as it relates the algorithm used in the spring. If ratings came out in mid to late Dec., how do you think that would affect your Spring Signups.


Our local league doesn't count any matches of the same gender & same level other than the Spring. The only explanation, I've heard from our league, is "We want the Fall League to be fun, without any pressure of ratings." :confused: Yeah, that's rationale. :?

I don't think ratings coming out Dec 24 or Dec 31 would have any affect on Spring sign-ups in any manner in our area. Our team didn't sign-up for the Spring League until Jan 2010. If you get bumped up or down, you still have several weeks to find a new team.

Teams signed up in Jan for league play that starts in Feb. On Jan 2, 3, 4, 5, or whatever day people start rolling back into the clubhouses, emails from our local league get sent, and Captains start adding teams. The number of team seems to follow the NTRP rating demographics fairly uniformly. Lots of 3.0s, 3.5s, fewer 4.0s, and even fewer 4.5 teams.

Imagine having a standard that applies uniformly across the board for the USTA. Basically, if it's a same gender & same level USTA match (not Mixed & not Combo) it would count toward a year-end rating from Date A to Date during a 365 day period. No, we can't do that. It makes sense, and it is way to complicated. :-?

Happy Thanksgiving folks

New Kid On the Block
11-25-2010, 06:08 AM
I think the ratings have worked out for the most part, it straightened out most of the players that were playing down, and the leagues for the most part were more competitive. The only people that it screwed up, are the people who always want to get bumped down so they can have an easy ride to sectionals.
Play the game and show what you are really made of...

Angle Queen
11-25-2010, 07:36 AM
I thought they would be out tonight as well. Looks like the bureaucrats in White Plains left work early and are leaving us wondering about our fate all weekend!Guess you don't subscribe to the pleasure-pain principle.

Eh? It is...what it is.

amarone
11-26-2010, 03:06 AM
i kinda thought the ratings woud be out tonight.. Why? TennisLink says they will be out Nov 29.

dlk
11-26-2010, 02:12 PM
Apology in advance, because I know the link has been provided before; but what is page on TennisLink that shows computer rating?

jonnyjack
11-26-2010, 02:14 PM
Apology in advance, because I know the link has been provided before; but what is page on TennisLink that shows computer rating?

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/NTRP/FindRating.aspx

Angle Queen
11-26-2010, 02:15 PM
^^ (good job Jonny...)

No apologies required.

Here's the general tennislink link: http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/

Here's the one to put in a specific player's name: http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/reports/NTRP/FindRating.aspx

dlk
11-26-2010, 02:24 PM
THanks for speedy responses:).

vizsla
11-27-2010, 03:13 PM
Are they out yet??!! Huh huh? (With a little sarcasm).

I believe they released them earlier last year (on the Saturday after Thanksgiving).

J011yroger
11-27-2010, 03:46 PM
Didn't they start to trickle out a little at a time?

Not all in one shot?

J

Game-Set-MATCH!!!
11-27-2010, 03:54 PM
just to say if you went to nationals for mens and mixed or womens and mixed and went all the way in both tourneys , expect to be a 3.5 or 4.0.... I am a 4.5 and this is what happened to my dad

g4driver
11-28-2010, 08:03 AM
Play the game and show what you are really made of...

I did just that. My 2010 record was 11-4 in our league play. I went 5-3 this spring after two major back surgeries in 2008, and other than a 3 month period of tennis between Aug 07 and Nov 07, I had a ten year layoff from the game as I left tennis in March 1999.

With one full year back on the court, I went 6-1 in the fall league, 11-4 for the year. So my guess, is my 3.5 "S" becomes a 3.5 "C", since only the 5-3 record factors into my rating.

dlk
11-28-2010, 08:18 AM
I did just that. My 2010 record was 11-4 in our league play. I went 5-3 this spring after two major back surgeries in 2008, and other than a 3 month period of tennis between Aug 07 and Nov 07, I had a ten year layoff from the game as I left tennis in March 1999.

With one full year back on the court, I went 6-1 in the fall league, 11-4 for the year. So my guess, is my 3.5 "S" becomes a 3.5 "C", since only the 5-3 record factors into my rating.

Boy, I feel like a loser: Mixed 6.5= 1-5, Mixed 6.0= 2-6, & Mens 3.5= 1-3:( Overall record, not counting Flex League (where record is quite a bit better)= 4-14.

J011yroger
11-28-2010, 08:27 AM
Boy, I feel like a loser: Mixed 6.5= 1-5, Mixed 6.0= 2-6, & Mens 3.5= 1-3:( Overall record, not counting Flex League (where record is quite a bit better)= 4-14.

LOL, I went 0-4, so you aren't alone.

Let's tip a cold one, us losers gotta stick together.

J

SlapShot
11-28-2010, 08:33 AM
I'm wondering what my fate will be - I'm 19-3 in the last 2.5 seasons of 4.0 (with a lot of matches being close, not many 2&2 blowouts), but only something like 3-8 at 4.5.

Hrm....wouldn't mind a bump, but I was just a lowly "3.5" player (played only 4.0 with a winning record) in 2009....

g4driver
11-28-2010, 08:41 AM
Guys you made me laugh and yes, folks like you make the game more fun. Thanks.

J011yroger, sorry to hear about you injuries. I was reading your thread on strings and wanted to thank you again for your advice.

I'm enjoying the stringing gig, and now wish I had bought a Gamma 6900 ELS with constant pull. I love the VS Touch/Babolat Hurricane Feel 17g hybrid, but can't use it during the hot, humid summer on the SC coast. 80%-90 humidity, with Har True courts, and lots of hot sun doesn't work well for durability.

Looking at Genesis Typhoon 16L versus Hurricane Feel 17g in the mains, with either Prince Premier LT 16g, X1BP, or NRG2 in the crosses. I have three frames, so I get two to match then experiment with the 3rd racquet.

Sure wish TW sold Genesis strings, but since they don't I placed an order with a rival company in Texas.

BustedString
11-28-2010, 10:45 AM
Are they out yet??!! Huh huh? (With a little sarcasm).

I believe they released them earlier last year (on the Saturday after Thanksgiving).

They released them on Sunday, 11/29/2009 starting at around 6:00 PM CST and going through almost midnight (batches) last year. That means if the same schedule holds true, they come out tonight.

Rabbit
11-28-2010, 12:39 PM
the schedule here is 29NOV10.

dlk
11-28-2010, 12:50 PM
LOL, I went 0-4, so you aren't alone.

Let's tip a cold one, us losers gotta stick together.

J

Thanks. Sounds good.

MJHendrickson21
11-28-2010, 04:05 PM
Where are they? Its 8PM EST!

Topaz
11-28-2010, 04:08 PM
Where are they? Its 8PM EST!

Today is the 28th. They are being released on the 29th which is...tomorrow.

vizsla
11-28-2010, 04:09 PM
See "Busted's" post above....

They released them on Sunday, 11/29/2009 starting at around 6:00 PM CST and going through almost midnight (batches) last year. That means if the same schedule holds true, they come out tonight.

Topaz
11-28-2010, 04:10 PM
See "Busted's" post above....

They released them on Sunday, 11/29/2009 starting at around 6:00 PM CST and going through almost midnight (batches) last year. That means if the same schedule holds true, they come out tonight.

Or...you could read all the other posts that point out what it says on Tennislink:

The 2010 year end rating calculation process is currently underway. It will include matches played from Nov 2nd 2009 thru Oct 31st 2010. The expected date of publication is November 29th 2010.

http://tennislink.usta.com/leagues/

Cindysphinx
11-28-2010, 04:11 PM
All righty. Who's gonna stay up all night to see if I get bumped up?

I nominate Topaz.

wrxinsc
11-28-2010, 04:23 PM
^ probably tomorrow evening Cindy...

Topaz
11-28-2010, 06:25 PM
All righty. Who's gonna stay up all night to see if I get bumped up?

I nominate Topaz.

Lol sorry, it is passed my bedtime! Good luck though!

BustedString
11-28-2010, 07:16 PM
No results here, I'm going to bed. It will be like Christmas tomorrow morning....I hope I was a good boy last year.

jonnyjack
11-28-2010, 10:57 PM
I must say, I'm more excited for the ratings than Combo Districts which starts on Friday 12/3, haha. It better come out tomorrow!

robby c
11-29-2010, 02:02 AM
Not yet.
Robby C

azentropy
11-29-2010, 05:00 AM
Nope, not yet. I wrote a simple program/script that will email me when it sees an update to anyone matching my name (there are 28 people with the same first/last name combo but only 6 having rankings)!!

It runs every 5 minutes.

wrxinsc
11-29-2010, 05:02 AM
^ that is a nice combo of programming skill and love of tennis.

JLyon
11-29-2010, 05:11 AM
8:10 CST and no update as usual from USTA

Manhattan Captain
11-29-2010, 05:35 AM
They're calling Iron Mountian for backup tapes.

Something went horribly wrong with the update script and the database got corrupted.

Stay tuned.

Cindysphinx
11-29-2010, 05:42 AM
^I heard USTA has a mega-virus that wiped out all match results for all players nationwide. Everyone will have to self-rate at 2.5 and go from there.

sumari
11-29-2010, 05:56 AM
Last year it took all day to get them changed. They seemed to do the bigger sections first. Here in the Missouri Valley, they did not finish until fairly late in the day.

bleach
11-29-2010, 06:07 AM
You can find them on Wikeleaks.com

wrxinsc
11-29-2010, 06:18 AM
^ SPAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





j/k

Xisbum
11-29-2010, 06:22 AM
8:10 CST and no update as usual from USTA

Where in Ark do you live? And, naturally, HOW 'BOUT THEM HOGS!!! :)

(Note to TWMACers: inside comment for Arkies only)

^I heard USTA has a mega-virus that wiped out all match results for all players nationwide. Everyone will have to self-rate at 2.5 and go from there.

Now that's the best idea I've seen in a long time. :)

But it's too logical for the USTA micromanagers.

njsigman
11-29-2010, 06:49 AM
Latest update on TennisLink is that the ratings will be published at 6pm ET today. Best part is they hedged themselves saying the date and time are subject to change..

JoelDali
11-29-2010, 06:54 AM
The ratings are inside the computer.

HitItHarder
11-29-2010, 06:59 AM
Actually, I just checked and the rates are out, at least for our local level.

Southern Section, South Carolina.

Edit -- this apparently is only for those that played adult league. The mixed exclusive ratings haven't been changed yet.

azentropy
11-29-2010, 07:04 AM
My script, mentioned above, notified me of a change. Looking at it it was someone who was "C" computer rated. Their rating didn't change, but the field for "Year End Rating Date" is no longer 12/31/2009 and is instead blank. They are in Alabama if that matters...

JavierLW
11-29-2010, 07:06 AM
Actually, I just checked and the rates are out, at least for our local level.

Southern Section, South Carolina.

Edit -- this apparently is only for those that played adult league. The mixed exclusive ratings haven't been changed yet.

Does yours have a year end date of 12/31/2010 on it now?

I noticed the date disapeared on mine but it still has the same rating and still says B for benchmark. Maybe it's in the works....

HitItHarder
11-29-2010, 07:07 AM
My script, mentioned above, notified me of a change. Looking at it it was someone who was "C" computer rated. Their rating didn't change, but the field for "Year End Rating Date" is no longer 12/31/2009 and is instead blank. They are in Alabama if that matters...


Several players on my team have new higher ratings. The year end rating date is blank now as well.

I was changed from a "C" to a "B" rated player as well even though I was not bumped up a level. So it looks like the new ratings are being published now.

JoelDali
11-29-2010, 07:13 AM
Damn, bumped!

Argh.

Cindysphinx
11-29-2010, 07:14 AM
Mid-Atlantic: A strong 3.5 just moved up to 4.0.

So it's on!!!

JoelDali
11-29-2010, 07:14 AM
Eastern are out.

Vik
11-29-2010, 07:16 AM
Does yours have a year end date of 12/31/2010 on it now?

I noticed the date disapeared on mine but it still has the same rating and still says B for benchmark. Maybe it's in the works....

Same here in TX. Showing as bumped with the date disappeared.

PinkTennisNinja
11-29-2010, 07:20 AM
Northern MS ratings are out, finally been bumped :)

JLyon
11-29-2010, 07:22 AM
Oh joy I get to spend another year getting waxed by former d1 college players and former touring pros. Guess my 1-5 record was not enough to bring me into proper level.

BustedString
11-29-2010, 07:23 AM
We are seeing them in the ******* as well. It is a slaughter for 4.0 men in my area. Some guys who didn't win a single set and had very few competitive sets at 4.0 stayed 4.5 and guys who were 3.5 computer rated just a year ago bumped up to 4.5. A lot of them. Holy cow. Just the 4.0 guys, everyone else seems fairly balanced.

Cindysphinx
11-29-2010, 07:26 AM
My goodness, Tennislink is slow. Would you people log off so I can see what's happening?

Cindy -- safe so far and feeling confident

struggle
11-29-2010, 07:33 AM
bumped to where i should be.

SlapShot
11-29-2010, 07:33 AM
If the current rating holds, I'm still a 4.0. I'm still trying to have an undefeated season at 4.0 - I came close a couple of seasons ago at 8-1. Maybe the USTA wants a perfect season as well. ;)

I swear that the next time I get called a ringer though....

ian2
11-29-2010, 07:37 AM
Y'all, stop clicking that "Refresh results" link, you are abusing the internets! I'm clicking it every 30 seconds and it refreshes real slow and I blame y'all!

jhp49
11-29-2010, 07:44 AM
They have a new message on Tennis Link that it will be 6pm or later ET before the results are posted. They are doing strange things like erasing the year end date on some people who played this year and not others. I wouldn't trust anything you see on the site at this point. They should have shut down the database to ratings request until the update was completed.

JavierLW
11-29-2010, 07:57 AM
Now Im starting to see year end dates.

My entire 4.0 team is now rated with a year end date of 12/31/2010 except for one player who was self rated, it still has his self rate date.

wrxinsc
11-29-2010, 08:01 AM
^ i agree, but the changes i am seeing while erratic are logical changes relative to who was bumped or not, so you may be able to trust your rating listed.

marcl65
11-29-2010, 08:06 AM
Quick question: How do you know if your rating was updated if it didn't change? When I search for my name I see my rating hasn't changed but I can't tell for sure if that means I'm going to stay at my current level or it just hasn't updated yet.

Cindysphinx
11-29-2010, 08:25 AM
I dunno. I think it goes alphabetically, more or less. Beyond that, you just have to wait.

JavierLW
11-29-2010, 08:28 AM
I think it goes in order of who played the earliest in the year.

I say that because in our area there is only one small league that played last winter that I was in, and I always notice that the players in there show up first.

Not that it matters eventually they all show up anyway and this discussion becomes sort of irrelevant.

CrispyFritters
11-29-2010, 08:46 AM
Are there any tell-tale signs to know if your rating has been updated? A date stamp or something?

Even if it's unchanged....how would I know that it's the new updated number vs. the old rating?

fantom
11-29-2010, 08:46 AM
Some results are in....mine was at least. Bumped up to 4.5.

lethalphorce
11-29-2010, 09:07 AM
I'm still pretty surprised that a couple of guys on my team didn't get bumped. One guy was 10-2 (6-0 at districts/sectionals) and he didn't get bumped. Another guy was 12-3 and no bump.

J_R_B
11-29-2010, 09:14 AM
Didn't get bumped, still 4.0 for another year. Not surprising. I had a good year, but far from dominating. We lost only one guy from our team, a guy who has 4.5 strokes and played and won 4.5 matches last year but is wildly inconsistent. He's a young kid, though, and he'll have fun at 4.5 full time.

njsigman
11-29-2010, 09:25 AM
I got bumped to 3.5 and am very happy!! :)

dlk
11-29-2010, 09:41 AM
I got bumped to 3.5 and am very happy!! :)

Same here, but my record was not that great, so I'm somewhat surprised. Probably be a punching bag, unless alot of top level 3.5s were bumped too.

ian2
11-29-2010, 10:06 AM
no happy here :cry: Not bumped despite 15:4 league record (singles and doubles) with 6:3 6:2 average winning scores. The tournament record was 13:11, a couple of showings in the singles and doubles finals but essentially a wash. I'm in a good company though: the #1 ranked guy in the state also wasn't bumped. Nor were the two guys at #1 doubles ranking in the state who have won all five tournaments they entered and only lost one league match all season.

Yes I know the ratings have nothing to do with rankings or win/loss ratio, and are based solely on whom you played and the game differential. However the DNTRP algorithm appears to produce nonsensical results, at least at the margins...

Well, looks like no league play at level for me next year. Unless I find home at a team at the next NTRP level, it's going to be all tournament play up a level.

robert
11-29-2010, 10:16 AM
Just noticed a buddy who was bumped up to 4.5 in ESR. But just bumped down back to 4.0 in YER.

I thought YER can't be lower than ESR. Looks like I was wrong. How could this happened?

OrangePower
11-29-2010, 10:24 AM
Just noticed a buddy who was bumped up to 4.5 in ESR. But just bumped down back to 4.0 in YER.

I thought YER can't be lower than ESR. Looks like I was wrong. How could this happened?

Not quite sure how this happens, but I've seen it before (a couple of cases last year). So I don't think it's completely unusual.

Todd6060
11-29-2010, 10:29 AM
From Nov. 2, 2009 to Oct. 31, 2010, I was 6-2 at 3.5 (finishing up early start) and 1-12 at 4.0. My year-end rating is 4.0 again.

lethalphorce
11-29-2010, 10:42 AM
Just noticed a buddy who was bumped up to 4.5 in ESR. But just bumped down back to 4.0 in YER.

I thought YER can't be lower than ESR. Looks like I was wrong. How could this happened?

I saw this happen to someone in our area today too. He didn't play a single match between the time the ESR's came out & the YER's came out, but he got bumped to 4.0, then bumped back down to 3.5 without playing a match.

clintontiger
11-29-2010, 10:55 AM
I have a quick question, I have a self rate date of july 25, 2010, and only played combo doubles and a few tournaments, so i guess i wont get another rating until next year.

film1
11-29-2010, 11:00 AM
So when do rankings come out?

njsigman
11-29-2010, 11:01 AM
You will get a year-end rating. If for some reason you don't like it, you will probably have the option of appealing upwards. Downward appeals are only valid for medical reasons....

clintontiger
11-29-2010, 11:05 AM
sigman: i assume that post was directed torwards me, other people with my last name have a 12/31 rating, so does that mean they just haven't gotten to me yet?

JavierLW
11-29-2010, 11:32 AM
I have a quick question, I have a self rate date of july 25, 2010, and only played combo doubles and a few tournaments, so i guess i wont get another rating until next year.

I bet you wont get a year end rating.

You may have to self rate again. Or you may just get to play.

I saw one guy that self rated in 2009 halfway thru the season, didnt play any matches, and just was able to play in 2010.

By the end of the year the self rating went away and he technically had no rating at all (it said 0.0) but nothing stopped him from playing.

(not that it should happen that way and it might of been a computer glitch that went uncaught...)

Not all tournaments generate a rating. I dont think Combo League does either. (but it should)

But I have my own self rated player who DID play 2 matches and still is listed as having his self rating. So if Im wrong maybe they didnt get to you yet.

njsigman
11-29-2010, 11:33 AM
clinton, double check. to my knowledge everyone should be receiving a year-end ranking if they played at least 1 match this year.

JavierLW
11-29-2010, 11:34 AM
clinton, double check. to my knowledge everyone should be receiving a year-end ranking if they played at least 1 match this year.

1 match will not necessarily generate a rating.

Also if you have not played in any matches that count toward ratings (which could be his case, not all tournaments count) then you will not generate a rating.

Angle Queen
11-29-2010, 11:37 AM
1 match will not necessarily generate a rating.

Also if you have not played in any matches that count toward ratings (which could be his case, not all tournaments count) then you will not generate a rating.Also...I was under the impression (complete hearsay...no attributable source)...that a "self-rate" who plays another "self-rate" is one of those "matches" that doesn't necessarily generate a rating.

wrxinsc
11-29-2010, 11:41 AM
I have a quick question, I have a self rate date of july 25, 2010, and only played combo doubles and a few tournaments, so i guess i wont get another rating until next year.

if you didn't play in a league that generates a rating such as adult or senior (for us in the south its called our spring league) or a mixed league - you will not receive a year end rating for this year. if you want to play in a league next year you will need to self rate again - say for the adult spring league. if you played only in a mixed league you will receive a mixed exclusive rating but sounds like you just played combo which doesn't generate ratings.

BustedString
11-29-2010, 12:00 PM
But I have my own self rated player who DID play 2 matches and still is listed as having his self rating. So if Im wrong maybe they didnt get to you yet.

Did this player have a match that went 6-0, 6-0 or 0-6, 0-6? If so, that doesn't count towards a year-end rating so if that was 1 of their 2 matches, they wouldn't get an EOY rating.

JavierLW
11-29-2010, 12:08 PM
Did this player have a match that went 6-0, 6-0 or 0-6, 0-6? If so, that doesn't count towards a year-end rating so if that was 1 of their 2 matches, they wouldn't get an EOY rating.

Wow. Im not saying if that's the case, but isnt that kind of funny?

(which goes to show why if that's the rule it's a STUPID rule!)

So let's say some ringer who doesnt belong at 3.5 plays two matches.

Instead of winning:

6-3, 6-1
6-2, 6-1

Which would of probably received them with a 4.0 rating if we assume they played some pretty decent players.

Instead they go:

6-3, 6-1
6-0, 6-0

So now they do not get a Year end Rating and they can self rate again??

(or they get lucky like a guy I saw this year the system wont make them self rate even and they can play half of the year with no rating)

So by totally whooping up on that second guy even more they will get rewarded by getting to possibly play another year at the lower level.

(did I mention that the 6-0, 6-0 thing was stupid?)

I know it wasnt that way in 2006 because I only played 2 matches that year and one was a 0-6, 0-6 beat down and I was still moved from 3.0 to 3.5. (the 2 matches were at 3.5)

BustedString
11-29-2010, 12:10 PM
I just received an email from our Section's Director of League Play. In essence, I was told that there is an error in the program and those Benchmarks who have won appeals are going to have them reversed when the developers fix the program.

Angle Queen
11-29-2010, 12:14 PM
I just received an email from our Section's Director of League Play. In essence, I was told that there is an error in the program and those Benchmarks who have won appeals are going to have them reversed when the developers fix the program.:shock: Wow. That's some serious stuff. What a mess they've made of things. Again.

BustedString
11-29-2010, 12:17 PM
So by totally whooping up on that second guy even more they will get rewarded by getting to possibly play another year at the lower level.


I think any rating, including self-rates, are good for 3 years.

wrxinsc
11-29-2010, 12:19 PM
:shock: Wow. That's some serious stuff. What a mess they've made of things. Again.

an appeal will only be granted based on missing information, permanent disabling injury or if the computer rating is less than .05 over the NTRP level and the request is to move down. those are the rules regardless of whether there is a "glitch" or not.

J_R_B
11-29-2010, 12:19 PM
Also...I was under the impression (complete hearsay...no attributable source)...that a "self-rate" who plays another "self-rate" is one of those "matches" that doesn't necessarily generate a rating.

I think it's a little more complicated than that. The two players would have to be self-rates with no dynamic rating. You get a dynamic rating the first time you play another player with a dynamic rating. So, if, say, 4 self-rates happen to just play each other and no one else for the whole season, none of those matches would count towards year-end ratings, but if one of the guys plays someone else with a dynamic rating (either a non-S rated player or an S-rate wth matches against non-S rates), then s/he would get a dynamic rating and any subsequent matches against the other self-rates would give them a dynamic rating as well.

Basically, NTRP ratings are like herpes. You don't have one at first, and you don't get one if you only play with other clean people, but as soon as one person gets it, everyone else they play with gets it, too.

JavierLW
11-29-2010, 12:22 PM
I just received an email from our Section's Director of League Play. In essence, I was told that there is an error in the program and those Benchmarks who have won appeals are going to have them reversed when the developers fix the program.

Serves them right! :-)

Otherwise I was scared they were back to their old ways where they make one massive change and then they make a bunch of other changes that will undo it...

wrxinsc
11-29-2010, 12:23 PM
Basically, NTRP ratings are like herpes. You don't have one at first, and you don't get one if you only play with other clean people, but as soon as one person gets it, everyone else they play with gets it, too.

The best post of the day! Let's see, how do I get this into my signature somewhere?

BustedString
11-29-2010, 12:23 PM
an appeal will only be granted based on missing information, permanent disabling injury or if the computer rating is less than .05 over the NTRP level and the request is to move down. those are the rules regardless of whether there is a "glitch" or not.

The issue here is that if you have a Benchmark rating you are not eligible to appeal it the first year and the system is currently letting you appeal them (sometimes) when you shouldn't. That is what is being fixed.

JavierLW
11-29-2010, 12:25 PM
I think any rating, including self-rates, are good for 3 years.

Self ratings expire after one year. I saw that with the guy this year. In the middle of the season it changed to a 0.0 when his year was up.

(but he was able to keep playing, and somehow he was able to register for the team without it realizing that the self rating was only good for half of the season)

I would imagine had his rating expired before he registered that it would of made him re-rate again.

Also I read that they changed the rules on mixed ratings where you have to self rate if you want to play adult now and then you have to use the higher of the two ratings.

BustedString
11-29-2010, 12:28 PM
Self ratings expire after one year. I saw that with the guy this year. In the middle of the season it changed to a 0.0 when his year was up.

I looked and you are right. Get your player to register before the 1 year deadline.

The Mixed rule I knew about. I'm not sold on it because, once again, I think they are tweaking the system for the minority with negative consequences for the majority.

wrxinsc
11-29-2010, 12:29 PM
The issue here is that if you have a Benchmark rating you are not eligible to appeal it the first year and the system is currently letting you appeal them (sometimes) when you shouldn't. That is what is being fixed.
You're are correct about the particular issue at hand, and it sucks for the folks that were able to appeal when they shouldn't have been able to (assuming that really happened - and it sure sounds like it did happen...). My point is that the rules are the rules so I guess they shouldn't be surprised when they find out their appeal will be evaluated based on those rules I posted not a computer glitch. Benchmark period or not. The only appeal down that will be approved are based on those three criteria I posted from what I understand.

tennis_tater
11-29-2010, 12:29 PM
Self ratings expire after one year. I saw that with the guy this year. In the middle of the season it changed to a 0.0 when his year was up.

(but he was able to keep playing, and somehow he was able to register for the team without it realizing that the self rating was only good for half of the season)

I would imagine had his rating expired before he registered that it would of made him re-rate again.

Also I read that they changed the rules on mixed ratings where you have to self rate if you want to play adult now and then you have to use the higher of the two ratings.

Beginning this year, "self-rates" will be good for two years.

BustedString
11-29-2010, 12:31 PM
You're are correct about the particular issue at hand, and it sucks for the folks that were able to appeal when they shouldn't have been able to (assuming that really happened - and it sure sounds like it did happen...). My point is that the rules are the rules so I guess they shouldn't be surprised when they find out their appeal will be evaluated based on those rules I posted not a computer glitch. Benchmark period or not. The only appeal down that will be approved are based on those three criteria I posted from what I understand.

Sorry for misunderstanding your prior post. I am actually in COMPLETE agreement with what you post here. I just need the rules to be universally applied and then I can deal with whatever that is.

wrxinsc
11-29-2010, 12:32 PM
Self ratings expire after one year. I saw that with the guy this year. In the middle of the season it changed to a 0.0 when his year was up.

(but he was able to keep playing, and somehow he was able to register for the team without it realizing that the self rating was only good for half of the season)

I would imagine had his rating expired before he registered that it would of made him re-rate again.

Also I read that they changed the rules on mixed ratings where you have to self rate if you want to play adult now and then you have to use the higher of the two ratings.

You are correct. A player must have a rating to register for a team. The system would have asked them to self rate in order to sign up for the team.

JavierLW
11-29-2010, 12:56 PM
I'm not sold on it because, once again, I think they are tweaking the system for the minority with negative consequences for the majority.

Yes well, we all know who that minority is in a lot of cases.... Short of parading them down the street with a placard that reads "I AM A CHEATER!!!!", and throwing rotten vegetables at them, I wonder how else they could of handled that?

I know a lot of people who were legitimately screwed by the last bump up and they ought to thank the people who kept working the system. (and the coordinators who are even worse because they cheat or follow some agenda other then just running the league which means we cant have anyone with a brain out there managing this thing....)

BustedString
11-29-2010, 01:00 PM
I know a lot of people who were legitimately screwed by the last bump up and they ought to thank the people who kept working the system. (and the coordinators who are even worse because they cheat or follow some agenda other then just running the league which means we cant have anyone with a brain out there managing this thing....)

I agree with the coordinator issue in many ways. One way to partially help that, I think, would be to have female coordinators assist the men and vice versa. We have coordinators here who just funnel all the new recruits to their teams.

momwendy
11-29-2010, 01:05 PM
Year End Ratings should be 12/11, right? --for next year....

It looks like they are going from the top down to adjust ratings -- hitting those at national play first, then down to regular league players with no post-season. I think the bump-ups & downs done so far are going to stick, but more movement could come until everything is posted 12/11....at least that's how past years' year-ends have trended.

J011yroger
11-30-2010, 03:23 AM
Looks to me like a bunch of people got moved from 4.0-4.5 and a few from 4.5-5.0.

J

dlk
11-30-2010, 03:38 AM
Looks to me like a bunch of people got moved from 4.0-4.5 and a few from 4.5-5.0.

J

Hey, remember my record? I got moved up:confused:

JavierLW
11-30-2010, 04:59 AM
I agree with the coordinator issue in many ways. One way to partially help that, I think, would be to have female coordinators assist the men and vice versa. We have coordinators here who just funnel all the new recruits to their teams.

Or they could have coordinators that are not from the local area act as LLC.

It's not like they physically have to be there anyway except for maybe once if there is some sort of meeting.

amarone
12-01-2010, 02:23 AM
Just noticed a buddy who was bumped up to 4.5 in ESR. But just bumped down back to 4.0 in YER.

I thought YER can't be lower than ESR. Looks like I was wrong. How could this happened?
They are calculated differently. The ESR calculation cannot use all the benchmarks because the matches have not been played yet. Example: Georgia published ESRs in August before Nationals had been played. Hence the full benchmark process could not possibly be used (it could be used with district and section results, but I don't know if they do that). Then when the YER are calculated, they will use the benchmark process and this can give a different result.