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View Full Version : Who here believes shoulder is ideal strike zone for Western grip? BB come here


TwistServe
06-07-2005, 04:23 PM
BB please give your opinion. I'm tired aruging with these highschool kids that think they're coaches now or something.

The western grip grips are prefered because they are easier to handle high balls.. But some kids here must insist the shoulder is the ideal strike zone when using a western grip. So you as a player must take balls at the shoulder for maximum power and spin! Wow what a statement.

Please view the below and tell me whree the are hitting the ball.. Is that called a shoulder?

1.) http://advancedtennis.com/atrp/guga.htm

2.) http://www.uspta.com/html/e-lesson-...%20forehand.swf

3.) http://www.aquo02.dsl.pipex.com/Ferrero.mov

4.) http://www.aquo02.dsl.pipex.com/Ferrero/3.jpg

TwistServe
06-07-2005, 04:27 PM
However, note that with a Western grip the ideal contact point is about shoulder height.

Hitting at shoulder height is ideal for topspin. Your arm can go well over the shoulder, it's not that hard. Shoulder height is the easiest to brush up consistently without initial awkwardness.

Quoted from an "expert" that frequents these boards, too bad she doesnt even use the Western grip.

Kana Himezaki
06-07-2005, 04:28 PM
Talk about defensive. Also note about the chest and upper shoulder being the ideal contact zone in my opinion.

Who here believes the ideal strike zone for a Western grip is at the WAIST?

Yes, I do believe upper chest is for maximum swing and spin. That's exactly what I said in the other thread. Next time, please keep the "debate" in one thread. Also realize that simply being out of college does not mean you are any better than most of the people on here. I am not, either. You are simply an elitist, chauvinist guy out of college that takes anyone with opposing opinions directly to the "personal attack" level.

Everyone else, please just tell this guy the waist is not ideal with a Western grip. Anyone with experience using it.


edit:: Too bad I HAVE used the Western grip. Also note that you were screaming about the waist, and that I believe upper chest is ideal. All information is posted in the late second and third pages of "General People on the Boards".

TwistServe
06-07-2005, 04:31 PM
Talk about defensive. Also note about the chest and upper shoulder being the ideal contact zone in my opinion.

Who here believes the ideal strike zone for a Western grip is at the WAIST?

Yes, I do believe upper chest is for maximum swing and spin. That's exactly what I said in the other thread. Next time, please keep the "debate" in one thread. Also realize that simply being out of college does not mean you are any better than most of the people on here. I am not, either. You are simply an elitist, chauvinist guy out of college that takes anyone with opposing opinions directly to the "personal attack" level.

Everyone else, please just tell this guy the waist is not ideal with a Western grip. Anyone with experience using it.


edit:: Too bad I HAVE used the Western grip. Also note that you were screaming about the waist, and that I believe upper chest is ideal. All information is posted in the late second and third pages of "General People on the Boards".

Please don't change what you said. I already have it quoted that you claim the shoulder is the ideal contact. PLEASE DO NOT LIE!

Kana Himezaki
06-07-2005, 04:33 PM
I ALSO SEEM TO REMEMBER YOU YELLING ABOUT THE WAIST.

Not to mention the second page, and most of everything else standing by the chest.

Have you ever deviated from your position on the waist? Does anyone else in this forum agree on the waist?

TwistServe
06-07-2005, 04:34 PM
I ALSO SEEM TO REMEMBER YOU YELLING ABOUT THE WAIST.

Not to mention the second page, and most of everything else standing by the chest.

Have you ever deviated from your position on the waist? Does anyone else in this forum agree on the waist?

My definition of the waist is right above the shorts where it meets the skin and I never deviated from that opinion. I'm not interested in other people's opinions. I'm interested in Bungalo Bill's opinion. These boards are frequented by people learning the game. Let us hear from a real expert and end this ridicously debate.

TwistServe
06-07-2005, 05:33 PM
Another thing to note: Power and consistency in the modern forehand comes from the elbow tucked in close to the body. You try that on a shoulder high ball. I'm sure BB will agree as well as he has mentioned it many times.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=21306&highlight=modern+forehand+elbow

Kana Himezaki
06-07-2005, 05:38 PM
I know, I've told many people to keep the elbow tucked into the body. It's not that hard.

A normal loop backswing already sets you up to hit balls at all heights. You simply let the racquet head dip down at that height, and whip through the ball.

You can try it on a CHEST high ball, you can try it on a shoulder high ball. You're still not ideally meeting the ball at your waist.

Bungalo Bill
06-07-2005, 05:48 PM
My definition of the waist is right above the shorts where it meets the skin and I never deviated from that opinion. I'm not interested in other people's opinions. I'm interested in Bungalo Bill's opinion. These boards are frequented by people learning the game. Let us hear from a real expert and end this ridicously debate.

First we have to remember that at the pro level they are well aware of the strike zones for grips.

Second, for the majority of a point pros will try to keep the ball out of their opponents strike zone for a grip.

So with that said, I would not be surprised to see the majority of photos or examples of pros hitting balls out of the strike zone of a particular grip. This also means pros know how to hit the ball with their preferred grip irregardless if the ball is in or outside of the "ideal" contact area.

WESTERN GRIP

The strike zone for the Western grip in general is higher then the other grips. A strike zone is an area much like a strike zone that a plate umpire uses to call balls and strikes. So nobody can say the "shoulder" is the place to hit balls ideal to the Western grip. The ability for Western grippers to handle high balls is what makes it so popular with clay-court players and juniors who are smaller in height.

Low balls are murder for Western grippers. These players generally don't do well on faster surfaces where the ball skids and stays low after the bounce. However, new balancing techniques like leaning back as contact is made is defying this to some degree.

Also, you have to have tremendous racquet-head speed to get the necessary pace and spin on the ball with a Western grip, which is hard to understand for players switching to a Western grip from let's say an Eastern grip.

The wrist position for the western grip forces a player to windshield wipe up the ball more. If a player lacks racquet head speed using this grip, their shot will lack speed and depth.

For some, it's also difficult for Western grippers to flatten their shots out, so putting balls away becomes a problem and takes a lot of practice to learn. Some players are obviously gifted and can do it without realizing that it is difficult for most players.

The Western Grips vertical strike zone is from slightly above the waist and up. Balls that are played above your waist are easier with a Western grip forehand, but as said above, low balls (below the waist) and wide balls tend to give a Western grip forehand fits. If mobility is a problem for a player, then it is usually better to stick with a more traditional grip or settle for my favorite grip - the SW.

The power in all grips comes from making clean contact with the ball and excellent timing. In order to push these limits, hitting further in front allows you to catch the ball at a slightly faster speed and helps you mature the swing speed into the ball at the same time.

The Western grip can certainly handle balls at shoulder height but to say it is the ideal contact zone most likely depends on the player using the grip. I also wouldnt discount it. The "ideal" contact area for a particular grip can be personal and for the most part should fit withing the overall strike zone for a certain grip.

If you see contact being made below the waist the majority of the time with a Western grip, that is when I would take issue try to understand why the player chooses to do this.

TwistServe
06-07-2005, 05:56 PM
So no one can say the "shoulder" is the place to balls ideal to the Western grip.

The Western Grips lateral strike zone is at least waist high and above.

Thank you for your clarification!



The Western grip can certainly handle balls at shoulder height but to say it is the ideal contact zone most likely depends on the player using the grip. I also wouldnt discount it.

Kind words to not embarass the girl, thanks!

I will leave an end to the discussion here as I feel further debate on this topic is futile. You've made your point clear.

In general, the Western grips vertical strike zone is slightly higher then the waist and above. I would think that actual power zone for a particular player is to hit more in front and about chest high to drive

This discussion entailed a previous discussion about teaching a first time user of the western grip. I aggree that the more advanced you get you want a vertical strike zone and to move into the ball.

Edit since this post is too long to follow:
To sum up: The simple question I asked BB: Is the western grip ideal strike zone SHOULDERS.. (keyword being ideal)

The simple short answer: Not quite

Kana Himezaki
06-07-2005, 05:59 PM
Thanks for taking the time to post, it's greatly appreciated.

A "high school kid that thinks she's a coach now" has proven herself more correct than a chauvinist who's graduated from a top 20 college and "provides accurate, completely correct" information to everyone that asks.

Yes, I am bitter about it.

BB, thanks again, I'm sure many people reference all your posts when looking for information.



edit:: Excuse me? "At least waist high and above", and out in front and in the middle of the chest by no means means WAIST.

If I'm wrong, you're completely wrong. I highly doubt a grip effective for hitting high balls is most effective for hitting balls at the waist as well.

BB's already proven what's correct. You're wrong. It's not the waist. I'm pretty much correct, it's the chest to shoulder.



SECOND EDIT:: "The more advanced you get the better it is to have a higher vertical strike zone and move into the ball"? It's not advanced, it's CORRECT. Extreme grips mean the contact point is a little more out in front. Higher vertical should NOT be twisted to mean "waist is the best, but you can move higher if you want".

I stand by my points, and primarily BB's own.

papa
06-07-2005, 06:37 PM
Well, the ideal height is from about mid chest to top of shoulder - I think Kana has been pretty consistent on this and I don't think you need to personally use a particular grip to either teach it or know all about it. As she, and probably other have said, there are many variables and height is just one of them - swing path, where one takes the ball, etc.

I'm not even sure why this whole thing has even become an "issue".

Kana Himezaki
06-07-2005, 06:40 PM
LOL, I guess it takes me to continue a full on war about simple contact zones. It takes TwistServe to start it and spread it everywhere.

Thank you for your input. I'd sincerely like to end the discussion about this soon.

TwistServe
06-07-2005, 07:03 PM
One last comment before serve practice:

If the "shoulder" is ideal, then whats the upper end of the ideal? Balls head high? Overheads? Or is there no upper end? It just starts from shoulders and goes down, anything above shoulder is not considered ideal? LOL Funny stuff

Obviously shorter people will want to hit the ball higher because the ball naturally comes higher so their ideal strike zone may change. For a normal 6'1 man shoulder ideal height is a complete joke.

MChong
06-07-2005, 07:04 PM
Just to say... I hit at the waist or a little bit above.

TwistServe
06-07-2005, 07:06 PM
Just to say... I hit at the waist or a little bit above.

So you don't beleive in highschool teenage coaching? Trust the girl. shes Womens NTRP 4.5 , has been taught by Bolliteri himself! (As she mentions his name in her posts)..

Kana Himezaki
06-07-2005, 07:10 PM
Just for your attention, I am six feet tall.

Extend your arm past your shoulder. You'll clearly see that there are plenty of possible contact points past the shoulder.

Also, because the Western swing path tends to follow a sharp arc which goes sharply UPWARD at the start, in order to keep a good contact point in front, hitting at the shoulder provides one of the largest maximum swings. You have one of the largest distances to generate racquet head speed in, and still maintain a clean contact point during the arc of acceleration. Shoulder height balls also allow you to still push out through the ball somewhat, and keep just as much topspin.

I'm trying to keep this purely informative. As such, your point has been proven to be wrong. When I was younger and developing, yes, I used a Western grip because many topspin balls came at my chest and shoulder. I am now six feet. The upper chest and shoulder points were not only comfortable as a result of practice (as you stated in the last post), they allowed the most racquet head speed. But I obviously wasn't getting as many balls at shoulder height anymore.

Which is the main reason I switched to a mild semiwestern grip (closer to semiwestern than Eastern, my base knuckle is mostly on the point between the bevels), and am very happy I made the change.

If you still want to debate, keep it informative and back your point up with facts. Others are sick of listening to a mature, educated man and myself scream across the entire forum.

fishuuuuu
06-07-2005, 08:33 PM
I play with a semi-western to western grip... I like to hit it around my belly-button... it doesn't feel good to hit it very much higher....

Sometimes I can wrench the ones near my knees for a really weird mini-lob looking kind of shot...

I think this is right :confused: ...

Don't be mad... you can both... come to my house... and teach me to play tennis!

Kana Himezaki
06-07-2005, 08:42 PM
LOL. I've cooled off, I'm not really angry anymore. Players with semiwestern grips tend to hit at waist level. You have a slightly more extreme (is it closer to SW or Western?) version, and the belly button is a little over.

A Western grip is usually from a little higher than that (mid chest maybe) to shoulder for comfortable hitting. Players prefer heights all over that range.

A large part of it is simply the player using the grip. However, the upper chest and shoulder range allows for full acceleration with a full Western. But other parts, mostly because they're more comfortable player, allow more comfort, which means more consistency and close to if not almost the full swing.

The bottom line is just sticking with what you're comfortable with.

TennsDog
06-07-2005, 09:04 PM
I know I will catch some heat for this, but it is sincere about how I play and feel: I play with a western grip and I hit most of my shots and my best shots between knees and waist. Approaching shoulder level is uncomfortable and I loose pace and depth. I love getting little scooters around 6-8 inches off the ground that I can rip for short angle winners. Again, it may not be right, but that's the way it is for me. My ideal contact is at or below the waist.

Kana Himezaki
06-07-2005, 09:14 PM
That sounds awkward, normally Eastern grips are perfect for those.

But it works for you, right? The low height would certainly limit the amount of initial racquet head speed, but you're working with it fine.

nViATi
06-07-2005, 09:22 PM
i think you are both right. i was just watching this video of gustavo kuerten.
http://advancedtennis.com/atrp/guga.htm
notice when he hits he is sort of off the ground from his leg push or ab rotation.
when he is in the air the ball is contacted near his waist which is the same height as his chest while he is standing. so um.. yeah..
i hope that helped

TwistServe
06-07-2005, 09:30 PM
i think you are both right. i was just watching this video of gustavo kuerten.
http://advancedtennis.com/atrp/guga.htm
notice when he hits he is sort of off the ground from his leg push or ab rotation.
when he is in the air the ball is contacted near his waist which is the same height as his chest while he is standing. so um.. yeah..
i hope that helped

The thread is talking about to shoulder or not to shoulder... There is a strike area that is ideal. If the shoulders are ideal than what is the high end of the ideal? The head? lol...

For the waist the low end would be the trunk and the high end would be the lower chest.. with the waist being the ideal middle. Kana's explaination of the shoulders makes little sense. Take your racquet hold it with a western grip. Now extend out to make contact. It's not possible to reach your shoulder unless you extend your elbow out which is not what you want to do. You want to keep your elbow closer to the body throughout.

Key to my argument: There is a strike area that is ideal. If the shoulders are ideal than what is the high end of the ideal? The head? You want to end up doing an overhead? Well this thread is mute I have enough backers and people resilent to posting because the thread is pointless now. I'm getting private AIM tells from people saying they agree with me but they dont want to hurt kana's feelings.

Prince_of_Tennis
06-07-2005, 10:16 PM
Ideal contact should be in between waist and chest...It could be struck around the shoulder but it is not the ideal area. I guess that is the main argument of Twistserve. He is gettin' you on the statement you made Kana. ::thread over::

MChong
06-07-2005, 10:20 PM
Okay, actually, I hit between the waist and shoulder, but on the shoulder ones, I can flatten them out pretty well so it can pretty much hit both for me, anyways.

TwistServe
06-07-2005, 10:21 PM
::thread over::

THANK YOU!

Currently stringing my racquet.. Hit some big kickserves in practice today.. taking a break after I got the mains strung..

Now for the crosses.

TwistServe
06-07-2005, 10:23 PM
Okay, actually, I hit between the waist and shoulder, but on the shoulder ones, I can flatten them out pretty well so it can pretty much hit both for me, anyways.

Exactly.. shoulder high balls are hard to produce good amount of topspin.. I like to flatten them out too! But when you teach a person asking about how to hit a western forehand you dont teach them to hit big spin at the shoulder level and then argue over it through several threads. Okay im sorry i dont want to rub it in.

troytennisbum
06-08-2005, 12:35 AM
I like using the western for both waist and shoulder height balls....so I guess I kind of agree with both you guys in this particular debate.

Kana Himezaki
06-08-2005, 07:50 AM
The head is not part of the ideal strike zone. I do not believe there is an ideal point, there is an ideal contact zone. The shoulder is in the upper end of that ideal zone, therefore for me, it's ideal.

I was focusing on chest and the shoulder being able to maximize the swing. I use a Western grip for occasional high balls, and return them back at the SHOULDER easily with topspin.

It's right in the swing path, and for me personally, it's easy to whip through. I don't expect everyone else to share my contact zone, that's fine.

As for thread over, I tried to end it a while ago. It's off insults though now, so we're fine.

And for hurting my feelings, it's fine. God, this is a debate about tennis. Message me yourselves. I don't expect to cry over "I WAS WRONG ON MY IDEAL CONTACT POINT, OH GOD", this is supposed to be informative. This is for people to work out their contact zone for themself.

TwistServe, please list the names of the people who messaged you. I'll gladly talk to them.

takeuchi
06-08-2005, 11:41 AM
i think this thread has proved something worth noting. everyone has their own opinion about what the ideal point/zone for a western grip is. It is probably in this zone where most of their balls are hit best, which leads to an individual preference zone.

Even though you use a western grip, a swing can vary person to person, along with all the other movements and footwork to go along with it. So to classify one single point that is ideal would be silly. I think this argument has deviated from a generalization, bringing arguments from both ends of the spectrum (or zone) inherent to preference.

I myself use semi-western with probably a more western-like swing. I find my best shots around chest high, but anything from waist to head is easy. Tennsdog's prefence zone is below the waist with a western grip. Seems odd but that is his preference.

So you can see that deep within your arguments you aren't really arguing as much as you think. This so called ideal zone is just a generalization. People will deviate because of what a generalization is. In plain english, Kana likes balls at the shoulder height and i'm guessing twistserve likes them near or above the waist. Not really much of a right or wrong situation. No one will be the same and everyone will have a preference.

Bungalo Bill
06-08-2005, 12:04 PM
The head is not part of the ideal strike zone. I do not believe there is an ideal point, there is an ideal contact zone. The shoulder is in the upper end of that ideal zone, therefore for me, it's ideal.

Not so fast Kana. A strike zone that is ideal for you is what I tried to say in my post above. The "ideal" contact point differs amongst players. Some like to make contact at the chest area and others at the shoulder areas. Some like to make contact between the waist and chest. This is the strike zone for the Western grip. There is really nothing else to it.

Obviously the better you get the more out in front you hit and can probably punish the ball higher in the strike zone. But "ideal" is relative. Stephi Graf had what most observers said "an unorthodox forehand". Where she made contact was from what most knowledgeable coaches said was late (horizontal strike zone).

The strike zone is made for each grip and takes many things into consideration such as the wrist position, the racquet face position, a players balance, and their ability to hit through the ball naturally.

The wrist/forearm is used a lot in the Western grip. Which is why many Western grippers develop arm trouble later. Some to the point of having surgery.

I was focusing on chest and the shoulder being able to maximize the swing. I use a Western grip for occasional high balls, and return them back at the SHOULDER easily with topspin.

I am a lefty and have always had a low contact point relative to my strike zone. I am very comfortable going up the back of the ball. I can imagine you would be able to return shoulder high balls with a western grip. You are still in the strike zone for that grip and are not forced to TWEAK something to make your shot happen. Just load and fire.

It's right in the swing path, and for me personally, it's easy to whip through. I don't expect everyone else to share my contact zone, that's fine.

I think a lot of people share yor strike zone. I also think a lot of players share a lower one as well. I agree with you that a great place to make contact with the ball with a Western grip is shoulder high. Knowing how I hit, I would probably prefer to make contact and around chest level to upper stomach.

I think all you guys are right!!!!!!

TwistServe
06-08-2005, 12:19 PM
Not so fast Kana. A strike zone that is ideal for you is what I tried to say in my post above. The "ideal" contact point differs amongst players. Some like to make contact at the chest area and others at the shoulder areas. Some like to make contact between the waist and chest. This is the strike zone for the Western grip. There is really nothing else to it.

Obviously the better you get the more out in front you hit and can probably punish the ball higher in the strike zone. But "ideal" is relative. Stephi Graf had what most observers said "an unorthodox forehand". Where she made contact was from what most knowledgeable coaches said was late (horizontal strike zone).

The strike zone is made for each grip and takes many things into consideration such as the wrist position, the racquet face position, a players balance, and their ability to hit through the ball naturally.

The wrist/forearm is used a lot in the Western grip. Which is why many Western grippers develop arm trouble later. Some to the point of having surgery.



I am a lefty and have always had a low contact point relative to my strike zone. I am very comfortable going up the back of the ball. I can imagine you would be able to return shoulder high balls with a western grip. You are still in the strike zone for that grip and are not forced to TWEAK something to make your shot happen. Just load and fire.



I think a lot of people share yor strike zone. I also think a lot of players share a lower one as well. I agree with you that a great place to make contact with the ball with a Western grip is shoulder high. Knowing how I hit, I would probably prefer to make contact and around chest level to upper stomach.

I think all you guys are right!!!!!!

Good points and a nice conclusion..

now off to serve practice

Kana Himezaki
06-08-2005, 02:15 PM
I tried to state multiple times that it's generally personalized, but I really couldn't have said it better than that.

Thanks BB, and everyone else for posting. Including TwistServe. :P