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Kana Himezaki
06-10-2005, 06:32 PM
Read it. I took the time to write this, you can take the time to read it. If your forehand is inconsistent or you're just looking for tips in general, that is.

It's sort of long, but you can skip to the parts you like that are bolded. And it's an easy read, anyway.

Above all, I tried to keep it as simple as possible. It's not that you're stupid, it's that most people (including myself) have no idea what the hell is going on when you find a huge post filled with frequent referencing of the "kinetic chain" and extremely detailed accounts of the most minute details.

Let's face it, that's not going to help most people. I didn't use any words that a middle schooler can't understand. If you think I did, ask me or scream at me.

Everything in this post links to each other. So expect frequent referencing. These are THE most common mistakes when dealing with inconsistency in forehands.

So...


BACKSWING:

The first thing many people will say is that the backswing is too large when you're asking why your FH is screwing up. This is right most of the time. Some people take the racquet back to even 8'o'clock (in relation to their body), and never realize it. A huge windup means INCONSISTENCY, especially on hard-hit balls.

Before you read the following tips, look at the next section. Then if you THINK you're doing that (which if you're inconsistent, let's face it, you're probably not), absolutely sure it's not your problem, or if you just have a problem with this, too: Read on.

To get used to hitting a shorter backswing, which coincidentally is one of the biggest parts of hitting ON THE RISE, try...

-Keep your elbow in DURING THE SWING. There's a bigggg section on
this later in this post, READ it. I'm putting it here too because it's
important even when hitting with the shorter backswing. In order to get
used to this -put a tennis ball in your armpit. And KEEP IT there during
the swing. It shouldn't fall out until after your followthrough. Once again,
your elbow will not be kept in during the backswing, but after takeback,
should be close to your body.

-Stand INSIDE the baseline. This will force you to take it earlier. This
makes you...turn quicker! (Covered in preparation next more thoroughly)
And...shorter backswing! Wait, I'm taking away time from the opponent,
shortening my backswing, and STILL keeping just as much or more pace
without dealing with a tricky bounce? No way! All the cool kids do it!

-Having a partner serve from the service line at you. This will develop
returns which...coincidentally...are pretty much like hitting on the rise!
THAT'S why Agassi was good at taking the ball early and returning at the
same time! It usually helps people if they see the effects of a shorter
backswing more clearly in returns, then applying it at the baseline.

-Try dropping a ball from your hand close to you and hitting it right at the
bounce. You can't really do that if your racquet is all the way behind you,
right? Shorten the backswing, keep the followthrough, and force a quicker
turn until you can do it right.



PREPARATION: (Read! Read it, dammit!)

HOWEVER, wait to adjust that. It might not be true for you anyway. Are you seeing the ball soon enough? Try to react to the ball as soon as it comes off your opponent's racquet, NOT after it crosses the net like 90% of players do.

As soon as it comes off your opponent's racquet...say "BALL". It helps, and you won't sound stupid if you don't scream it.

Move into position as soon as possible. You have no idea how many juniors get angry and think they're running for every ball when their coach tells them to get to the ball and hustle. Even on shots generally close to you, get into an IDEAL position for yourself.

Then as soon as you can, take your racquet back. You shouldn't arm takeback, most of the backswing should be a direct result from turning the hips and shoulders sideways and coiling the upper body.

Preparation is the single most undervalued part of tennis in the junior world.



KEEPING THE ELBOW IN: (If you're a beginner...you probably don't.)

Another way to increase consistency is KEEPING THE DAMN ELBOW IN DURING THE SWING. I say "damn" because I find almost every other person my age understands the phrase or sentence much, much better when you simply add a "damn" in it.

You LOSE CONTROL when the arm is away, and you're swinging with a straight arm. If you're scientific, it's harder to direct your body, muscles, and swing when the contact point is further away from your body. Also, when using a straighter arm (as forced by not keeping the elbow in), you're often forcing yourself to use the wrist.

MORE inconsistency there.

Also, keeping the elbow in helps in power slightly, too. When making contact, you're mostly rotating into the ball, your elbow position hasn't changed much. Then, as you make contact, you're extending THROUGH the ball. This creates power and depth. You can't really push through the ball if your arm is straighter.

Consistency, power, AND depth? Wow, I think that's cool.

Tuck a ball in your armpit. Take your swing, and don't let it fall out until AFTER the followthrough. If it falls out earlier than after that, it means your elbow is too far away. Ouch.



I'll go into more later if I feel like it, or people were able to understand it easily.

snowpuppy
06-10-2005, 06:45 PM
umm.. i'll be the first to thank you for your efforts. But i don't really want to read this much, nor do i want to think this much while playing.

eLterrible
06-10-2005, 06:51 PM
Thanks for the post, you should do a monthly post like this :p The elbow tip really helps, i judge my reach terribly so i find myself stretching a lot, taking away my consistancy, power and form...but never realized it until now.

benasp
06-10-2005, 07:19 PM
i'm very interested in your post but i'm french and i don't understand to keep the elbow in. I know what you mean, don't hit with arm straight, but at wich point. pict or video would help a lot

Kana Himezaki
06-10-2005, 07:29 PM
umm.. i'll be the first to thank you for your efforts. But i don't really want to read this much, nor do i want to think this much while playing.

That's why you look at the bold parts, and read accordingly.

And you DON'T want to think much. You want to focus on the ball while playing, and almost nothing else.

This is for using in practice, having your body get used to it, sort of memorize what you're trying to do, and get into good habits that will come back naturally on the court.

Despite what anyone says, thinking is BAD while playing. Plan out your point before, and do minimal thinking in play. Be dumb, you'll be the better for it.



Benasp - At which point? It's not an exact point. Try the drill I mentioned of keeping the ball in your armpit during your swing. It's covered in there, but I'll say it again. If the ball falls out before the followthrough...start with the elbow closer.

Keeping the elbow in should come naturally with a good backswing when turning your trunk. Once your racquets set up back there, and your elbows in (almost touching your body, or even touching your body), it probably won't move out for the rest of the shot.

thejackal
06-10-2005, 07:53 PM
Kana, if thinking is so bad, then why are you overloading us with random thoughts (and putting "damn" all over the place while you're at it)

J/K Nice effort. The drills woulld certainly help.

Kana Himezaki
06-10-2005, 08:02 PM
LOL. As stated, adding "damn" adds to the comprehension levels of juniors greatly. Including myself.

For example:

A: "As a result, my cerebral neurons are establishing large numbers of synaptic connections to adequately process the reading material."

B: "Indubitably."

Hard to understand, right? Change it to:

A: "As a result, the DAMNED CEREBRAL NEURONS are goddamn establishing connections to adequately process the reading material."
B: "Hella tight, dawg."

It's even in studies. The word single handedly could change teaching and boring subjects as we know it, simply by adding it in key points. :D rofl.

thejackal
06-10-2005, 08:04 PM
...school would never be the same ;)

TwistServe
06-10-2005, 08:53 PM
You missed the biggest part of forehand consistency: net clearance. If you watch the clay court players, how come they can go for so many rallys? Because they hit way over the net.. 5+ foot over the net.

As for the elbow tidbit.. Depending on the grip the distance at which you want to tuck in the elbow varies. With eastern grip the elbow is less tucked in. With western grip the elbow is more tucked in. The reason you want your elbow "tucked in" (i like that word better).. is because when its tucked in, its closer to your body, and your brain can make proper calcations and knows where the racquet is at all times. Also the distance from your elbow when tucked in to your body doesn't ever change.

And a picture does wonders.. See how Federer does not have his elbow tucked in much because here he is using more of an eastern grip:

http://www.importexpert.com/tennis/Federer_FH.mov

See how ferrero's elbow is tucked in and close to his body because of his western grip: http://www.aquo02.dsl.pipex.com/Ferrero.mov

http://www.aquo02.dsl.pipex.com/Ferrero/3.jpg

There's a big old thread about the elbow / ben arm at contact: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=21306&highlight=elbow+forehand

Kana Himezaki
06-10-2005, 08:59 PM
Net clearance IS a huge part. However, I'm focusing on preparation and the swing. I've said it in other threads. Hoewver, the things mentioned above all link together. Aiming for at LEAST two feet over the net (one if it's relatively flat) is essential.

But once again, more players have problems with what I mentioned above. Most people already know not to hit it as low as possible.

Benefits to keeping the elbow "tucked in" are already stated in my post.

Plus, in the Federer movie, he's barely even warming up. However, STILL note his elbow is fully bent and kept relatively close to the body. Eastern grips do keep slightly further away, but for SW and Western grips it's completely essential.

Thanks for the movies.

TwistServe
06-10-2005, 09:06 PM
When all else fails: Grip it and Rip it!

Kana Himezaki
06-10-2005, 09:13 PM
...rip it consistently.

You sound like a high school guy on the freshman/sop****re team. :D

When all else fails, play the percentages. Sure, "rip it". But rip it preferably crosscourt, and don't try anything stupid.

TwistServe
06-10-2005, 09:19 PM
...rip it consistently.

You sound like a high school guy on the freshman/sop****re team. :D

When all else fails, play the percentages. Sure, "rip it". But rip it preferably crosscourt, and don't try anything stupid.

Nah.. Rip it on the lines.. Paint the "damn" lines over and over and over. Go for the crazy angles like Puerta! You can do it you can do it. never be scared of your strokes! Have confidenc3!

Kana Himezaki
06-10-2005, 09:26 PM
In case you forgot, Puerta made lots of errors. :P He WAS controlling the point...then he'd just screw it up. XD

And don't aim for the "damn" lines, it's better to aim for the middle between the center hash mark and sideline. More error margin, still good results.

It's more fun to "rip it" when you're playing for fun. But when it's a tournament, or you're playing a match...it's way more fun to win.

...I can't stand losing.

TwistServe
06-10-2005, 09:57 PM
...I can't stand losing.

Losing is a fact that helps you improve your game. When people cant stand losing they end up pushing the ball back and doing whatever it takes to win. Playing dink balls and just being afraid to do anything... One of the biggest hurdle most players have is getting a real second serve in a match. Most players break down completely on their second serve and it takes probably months of losing matches before you have the confidence to really nail a hard kicker on a second serve.

As for me, sometimes I purposely drop a game when I'm ahead so that I can serve for one more time.. extra practice ya baby!

Kana Himezaki
06-10-2005, 10:32 PM
Not being able to stand losing is COMPLETELY different from what you said.

Percentage tennis is NOT dinking the ball, it is playing the ball with the highest chance of going in. You STAY just as aggressive, you just play it crosscourt more, and don't take risks you would have otherwise. It doesn't mean holding back at all.

I HAVE lost. Losing DOES help you. However, when playing, I'm extremely competitive. I don't want to lose, PERIOD. That doesn't mean dinking, nor does it mean breaking down and getting anxious.

I simply get more tenacious, and sometimes even begin diving for balls. Maybe even more aggressive.

I'll give you most of the names in pro sports...they're the same way. Competitive. They wouldn't be on the pro level if they didn't have the drive to win and stay up there.


edit:: And I'm pretty sure for almost anyone who's willing to do anything not to lose, they're aggressive. They're NOT going to push. Anyone beyond the 3.0 level knows he's not going to win by pushing.

TwistServe
06-10-2005, 10:45 PM
Anyone beyond the 3.0 level knows he's not going to win by pushing.

There are lots of great 3.5 and 4.0 pushers.. Sometimes you even see a few in the 4.5 range. I know your next arugment is that you live in southern california so the competition is different.. guess what I live in socal too.. Pushers come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, and at all levels. There tons of them at the levels I mentioned. And older men like 40+ are notorious for pushing. Even BB made a post about losing to a really good pusher some time last year. You think BB loses to 3.0s?

Kana Himezaki
06-10-2005, 10:48 PM
My main point was not wanting to lose usually never means pushing. Anyone with that mindset is probably aggressive in the first place.

Also, if they're beating you above 3.0, they're NOT PUSHING. Not at all. "Pushing" has simply come to mean anyone who can keep the ball in, somehow. You shouldn't give a derogatory name to someone who doesn't really "push" the ball, and someone who can beat you.

There are counter punchers and there are grinders. I won't talk about it here, there are MILLIONS of threads you can find with the search function.

Pushing also does not mean playing percentage tennis. That's something all players, even the aggressive ones at higher levels do.

TwistServe
06-10-2005, 10:52 PM
I think the thing is, most juniors, like yourself, only play other juniors.. You have't had to deal with a true pusher.. try playing some old guy that's like 50 years old that's been playing tennis for 30 years.. 30 years of pushing he can beat lots of 4.0s and 4.5s just by getting his racquet on every ball, even tho theres absolutely no spin on any strokes.

Kana Himezaki
06-10-2005, 10:58 PM
I've played against all kinds of "pushers".

If there's no spin or depth, it's going to be killed by anyone who's actually a 4.5. If he's keeping it deep, and forcing you to generate all the pace and keep it unattackable -he's not pushing. A "true" pusher sticks to the name, and gives an extremely short "push" through the ball. It'll go in, it won't have any pace, depth, or spin.

If they do otherwise, maybe they're not pushing. And a 50 year old guy isn't going to get those shots that are put away.

A short, floating, spinless ball is something Nadal couldn't chase down when given to anyone who's actually a 4.0 or 4.5.

TwistServe
06-10-2005, 11:11 PM
Your arugment flaws in that a 3.0 could hardly keep the ball in play because they'd be so inconsistent even if they tried to push lOl. So how could a 3.0 player ever be a pusher and win?.. Hell they can't even serve.. Look up 3.0 definition.. how do pushers win when they cant serve yet theres so many threads about the topic alone lol.. obvioulsy pushing continues to go up the ranks.. when I say players push, I dont mean the whole game.. when they serve out a set, down breakpoint, etc.. they'll do what it needs to be done.

hmm i think i hijacked this thread sorry :)

Also i never said anything about %tennis. I said people that tend to want to win and afraid to lose end up pushing. Dont put words in the mouth of the twister.

Moya vs Massu at the 2004 Oympics.. Massu snaps a string on match point and starts pushing the ball back.. Moya doesn't know what to do so he pushes the ball back to massu too! THIS IS HUMAN NATURE

What happen to Coria VS Nadal during the ROME finals match point? Nadal throws up a defensive lob that is well short. Coria should put it away, and he would have any other point.. but its MATCH POINT! Coria pushes the ball back and Nadal scores a winning passingshot.

Bungalo Bill
06-10-2005, 11:57 PM
In case you forgot, Puerta made lots of errors. :P He WAS controlling the point...then he'd just screw it up. XD

And don't aim for the "damn" lines, it's better to aim for the middle between the center hash mark and sideline. More error margin, still good results.

It's more fun to "rip it" when you're playing for fun. But when it's a tournament, or you're playing a match...it's way more fun to win.

...I can't stand losing.

I think that is a great post Kana. It does pay dividends to adhere to good mechanics and understand the role of the elbow. A lot of players simply do not know or are not ready to know. You did a great job for all to see, read, print, and review at their leisure. Sometimes people might be on-the-road or away from the computer for awhile and want to print and read things later.

As far as the "seeing the ball off the players racquet" a couple things need to be said about that. First it is impossible to do that. I think we both know (but wanted to clarify it to others) that what a coach or good player means is to be able to stay alert as to the direction the ball is going to. The sooner the better and the more someone practices trying to see the ball come off the strings the better they will be in position to make a relaxed and clean shot. The goal of a player should be to reduce indecision time. Try and move before the ball comes over the net.

I did a post not to long ago about PREPARING IN THE AIR. Preparation to move does not begin with seeing the ball off your opponents strings. It begins right after you make contact and how well you recover to the proper position so you are ABLE to react to the direction your opponent is hitting to. This means when you are about hit the ball you have to make the right choice about how your going to hit it.

I did a post on System Five that can help a player learn when he is to play more defensively and offensively and incorporate this in their practice sessions. Brad Gilbert did a recent article on shot selection and recovery as well.

Controlling elbow movment but at the same time allowing it freedom of movement will help a player a lot.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 02:33 AM
I disagree that you need to keep the elbow close to the body. You want it close on contact but on the backswing, a raised elbow is a HUGE source of power and spin. Look at the two best forehands in the history of tennis, Lendl and Agassi. They both raise the elbow on the backswing. So do tons of other pros. It might be easier for a beginner to hit with the elbow close, but as you advance a raised elbow on the backswing can be beneficial.

Bungalo Bill
06-11-2005, 07:31 AM
I disagree that you need to keep the elbow close to the body. You want it close on contact but on the backswing, a raised elbow is a HUGE source of power and spin. Look at the two best forehands in the history of tennis, Lendl and Agassi. They both raise the elbow on the backswing. So do tons of other pros. It might be easier for a beginner to hit with the elbow close, but as you advance a raised elbow on the backswing can be beneficial.

A raised elbow on the backswing is not the source of HUGE power and spin. It does not serve that function. The source of power and spin comes from a deliberate use of the kinetic chain. The main intiator for upper body rotation is the stomach.

The purpose of raising the elbow high on the backswing is to help shorten the backswing and to help not letting the racquet go behind the body on the backswing. If you raise the elbow it is more difficult to get the racquet behind your body on the backswing.

Having an elbow that is close to the body is important. The most important part of the swing is six inches before and after contact. As the elbow passes the side and goes in front of the body, a stable elbow helps a player make clean contact.

In the modern forehand, the elbow leads the shoulder rotation. This initial tug sets the racquet path in motion forward with the elbow coming along side (within reason) and passing to get in front of the body plane at contact.

Return_Ace
06-11-2005, 07:54 AM
Heya Kana Great Post btw, and the use of "Damn" just helps you understand it and stresses the important points :).

Also I shoved this thread in the sticky up top so everyone can read your thread :)

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 12:21 PM
A raised elbow on the backswing is not the source of HUGE power and spin. .

Yes it is. It helps create increased height of the racket head on the
backswing which results in an increase in racket head speed. Physicist
Dr. Pat Keating found that on a free falling loop, the racket head gains approximately 5.5. miles per hour on the first foot of the drop; then multiply 5.5 times the square root of the height of the drop. The result is the speed of the racket due to gravity. This increased racket speed has a multiple effect on the speed of the ball, and it helps explain why little kids who use the loop can hit the ball so hard. In contrast to this, the person who goes straight back to the low point of his backswing has gained ZERO miles per hour as he starts to move into the ball. He must use alot more muscular effort to gain sufficient racket speed in a short period of time. The loop is
impossible if you keep your elbow tight the whole swing. Show me one picture of a pro (besides McEnroe ) who keeps his elbow close to his body the ENTIRE SWING, start to finish. ONE.

TwistServe
06-11-2005, 12:40 PM
Heya Kana Great Post btw, and the use of "Damn" just helps you understand it and stresses the important points :).

Also I shoved this thread in the sticky up top so everyone can read your thread :)

How come every post that Kana post you come kiss it up? lol You two should "go" out to the prom in a few years.

TwistServe
06-11-2005, 12:42 PM
Yes it is. It helps create increased height of the racket head on the
backswing which results in an increase in racket head speed. Physicist
Dr. Pat Keating found that on a free falling loop, the racket head gains approximately 5.5. miles per hour on the first foot of the drop; then multiply 5.5 times the square root of the height of the drop. The result is the speed of the racket due to gravity. This increased racket speed has a multiple effect on the speed of the ball, and it helps explain why little kids who use the loop can hit the ball so hard. In contrast to this, the person who goes straight back to the low point of his backswing has gained ZERO miles per hour as he starts to move into the ball. He must use alot more muscular effort to gain sufficient racket speed in a short period of time. The loop is
impossible if you keep your elbow tight the whole swing. Show me one picture of a pro (besides McEnroe ) who keeps his elbow close to his body the ENTIRE SWING, start to finish. ONE.

I'll say one thing.. the raised elbow in a serve does wonders! But than in a serve you want your elbow extended at contact too.. so its a totally different motion.

Also Andy Roddick has a raised elbow on his backswing for his forehand. I'm looking at the Advanced Tennis video clips of his forehands right now.. But his technique is a little different.

Bungalo Bill
06-11-2005, 12:50 PM
Yes it is. It helps create increased height of the racket head on the
backswing which results in an increase in racket head speed. Physicist
Dr. Pat Keating found that on a free falling loop, the racket head gains approximately 5.5. miles per hour on the first foot of the drop; then multiply 5.5 times the square root of the height of the drop. The result is the speed of the racket due to gravity. This increased racket speed has a multiple effect on the speed of the ball, and it helps explain why little kids who use the loop can hit the ball so hard. In contrast to this, the person who goes straight back to the low point of his backswing has gained ZERO miles per hour as he starts to move into the ball. He must use alot more muscular effort to gain sufficient racket speed in a short period of time. The loop is
impossible if you keep your elbow tight the whole swing. Show me one picture of a pro (besides McEnroe ) who keeps his elbow close to his body the ENTIRE SWING, start to finish. ONE.

A dropping racquet has nothing to do with a raised elbow! You are mixing in information that has nothing to do with each other.

Increased racquet head speed can also happen with a minor takeback in the racquet. A large loop in the racquet also has diminishing returns when it comes to timing.

No one has said to keep the elbow locked into your side. You are the only one that interpreted it this way. You are mixing apples and oranges.

No one has said you need to keep your elbow in the body the ENTIRE swing! The elbow is free to move but it is not the source of power. You are flat out wrong on that.

On the racquet takeback the elbow is suppose to move in a natural way as some players raise the elbow up and then take the racquet back which helps to reduce a large and unnecessary backswing.

The elbow as it comes forward runs in a line and crosses the side as it heads out in front of the body remaining CLOSE to the body. It is not dangling away or moving up and down to alter the racquet head during the forward swing.

You might want to study a bit more before you start chiming in and twisting words around.

Most of the people here already know that a racquet in a loop takeback requires less muscle recruitment to generate racquet head speed then a short takeback due to gravity. However, as I stated above, a high loop takeback has diminishing returns in timing.

The elbow has nothing to do with HUGE power. It is part of the kinetic chain and serves its purpose to stay close to the body as it swings forward and through.

Further you can still have a high racquet takeback and a low elbow which is comfortably close to the body.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 12:56 PM
,



KEEPING THE ELBOW IN: (If you're a beginner...you probably don't.)

Another way to increase consistency is KEEPING THE DAMN ELBOW IN. I say "damn" because I find almost every other person my age understands the phrase or sentence much, much better when you simply add a "damn" in it.

You LOSE CONTROL when the arm is away, and you're swinging with a straight arm. If you're scientific, it's harder to direct your body, muscles, and swing when the contact point is further away from your body. Also, when using a straighter arm (as forced by not keeping the elbow in), you're often forcing yourself to use the wrist.

MORE inconsistency there.

Also, keeping the elbow in helps in power slightly, too. When making contact, you're mostly rotating into the ball, your elbow position hasn't changed much. Then, as you make contact, you're extending THROUGH the ball. This creates power and depth. You can't really push through the ball if your arm is straighter.

Consistency, power, AND depth? Wow, I think that's cool.

To refer back to a point I posted in the "backswing section" (somehow, everything seems to FIT TOGETHER), tuck a ball in your armpit. Take your swing, and don't let it fall out until AFTER the followthrough. If it falls out earlier than after that, it means your elbow is too far away. Ouch.



I'll go into more later if I feel like it, or people were able to understand it easily.
What do you mean no one said to keep the elbow close????

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 01:09 PM
A dropping racquet has nothing to do with a raised elbow! You are mixing in information that has nothing to do with each other.

Increased racquet head speed can also happen with a minor takeback in the racquet. A large loop in the racquet also has diminishing returns when it comes to timing.

No one has said to keep the elbow locked into your side. You are the only one that interpreted it this way. You are mixing apples and oranges.

No one has said you need to keep your elbow in the body the ENTIRE swing! The elbow is free to move but it is not the source of power. You are flat out wrong on that.

On the racquet takeback the elbow is suppose to move in a natural way as some players raise the elbow up and then take the racquet back which helps to reduce a large and unnecessary backswing.

The elbow as it comes forward runs in a line and crosses the side as it heads out in front of the body remaining CLOSE to the body. It is not dangling away or moving up and down to alter the racquet head during the forward swing.

You might want to study a bit more before you start chiming in and twisting words around.

Most of the people here already know that a racquet in a loop takeback requires less muscle recruitment to generate racquet head speed then a short takeback due to gravity. However, as I stated above, a high loop takeback has diminishing returns in timing.

The elbow has nothing to do with HUGE power. It is part of the kinetic chain and serves its purpose to stay close to the body as it swings forward and through.

Further you can still have a high racquet takeback and a low elbow which is comfortably close to the body.
You might want to read the original post that I'm responding to before you chime in. I didn't twist anything around.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 01:23 PM
[QUOTE=Bungalo Bill]A
No one has said to keep the elbow locked into your side. You are the only one that interpreted it this way. You are mixing apples and oranges.

No one has said you need to keep your elbow in the body the ENTIRE swing! The elbow is free to move but it is not the source of power. You are flat out wrong on that.


QUOTE]

Yeah, No one has said those things, except for the original poster who wants you to stick a tennis ball under your armpit and not let it fall out until the followthrough.

Return_Ace
06-11-2005, 01:35 PM
How come every post that Kana post you come kiss it up? lol You two should "go" out to the prom in a few years.

I'm sorry, I never thought complimenting somone on a good thread was now "kissing it up". And probably would go to a prom with Kana except there are a few problems:

1) She's 6' and I'm 5'6/7, that would make me look bloody stupid (no offence Kana)

2) I'm in FRIGGING ENGLAND so that means:
a) I don't even know wtf a prom is (I'm guessing it's some kind of dance thing)
b) Unless you're going to pay for the bloody flight I'm not going to see her! GIMP!

And it is true that for teens the use of small "swear words" helps lighten the mood, and conveys the point better, GOT IT???

And, go and find proof that i do "kiss up" every post that kana makes, i'm sure you'll find that i don't actually do this and that the "kissing up" is all in your head..............I think that your just jealous since NOBODY else had a problem with my post..........

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 01:46 PM
$500 DOLLAR CHALLENGE TO BUNGALOW BILL!!!!!!!

Let's play a game Bill. The Crosscourt forehand challenge match!!!

2 out of 3 games to 21. We each have half the court to hit into, the forehand side. We play 2 out of 3 groundstroke games to 21. The only rule is that you have to keep a tennis ball under your armpit the whole time.
If it falls out before the followthrough YOU LOSE!! I get to use my crazy raised elbow forehand.
What do you say?????

Bungalo Bill
06-11-2005, 02:42 PM
$500 DOLLAR CHALLENGE TO BUNGALOW BILL!!!!!!!

Let's play a game Bill. The Crosscourt forehand challenge match!!!

2 out of 3 games to 21. We each have half the court to hit into, the forehand side. We play 2 out of 3 groundstroke games to 21. The only rule is that you have to keep a tennis ball under your armpit the whole time.
If it falls out before the followthrough YOU LOSE!! I get to use my crazy raised elbow forehand.
What do you say?????

Again, you are twisting the meaning of drills and exercises that are designed to reduce excessive elbow roll. The elbow plays a key role in racquet control. It is part of the kinetic chain and comes forward of the body plane during contact which can give way to a wrist release or no wrist release.

Having the elbow pass close to the body is a good thing. It is what your suppose to do. It is harder for a player to control their racquet face angle with the elbow away from the body and is one of the situations if you see this you step in and anticipate a short ball.

What you are doing is twisting the words we are saying above and making it sound like the elbow doesnt move or is locked into the body and should be isolated. Far from the truth.

Lets make it even on the competition. You are allowed to have your high elbow and I will be able swing the racquet the way I know how to swing which is using an educated elbow and we will see how you do.

Better be ready pal.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 02:50 PM
You keep saying I'm twisting things. I didn't twist anything.. I notice you didn't mention a single word about her "tennis ball under the armpit". You're the one who's completely ignoring the content of her post. GO STUDY HER POST then chime in. I take that as a no on my challenge? I understand. I didn't think someone would actually want to try to play with such a flawed technique. SHOW ME ONE PRO WHO HITS THEIR FOREHAND IN SUCH A WAY THAT A BALL WOULD REMAIN UNDER THEIR ARMPIT UNTIL THE FOLLWTHROUGH. You're great at insulting people, I'll give you that. But you completely ignore questions when you don't have the answers.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 02:55 PM
it Lets make it even on the competition. You are allowed to have your high elbow and I will be able swing the racquet the way I know how to swing which is using an educated elbow and we will see how you do.

Better be ready pal.

So you really don't believe you should swing like you have a tennis ball under your armpit. I didn't think so. Neither do I.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 02:57 PM
Better be ready pal.

Me and my $500.00 are ready for ANYONE who agrees to keep a tennis ball under their armpit. BRING EM ON!!!!!!!!!!!

Bungalo Bill
06-11-2005, 03:04 PM
You keep saying I'm twisting things. I didn't twist anything.. I notice you didn't mention a single word about her "tennis ball under the armpit".

You're the one who's completely ignoring the content of her post. GO STUDY HER POST then chime in. I take that as a no on my challenge? I understand. I didn't think someone would actually want to try to play with such a flawed technique. SHOW ME ONE PRO WHO HITS THEIR FOREHAND IN SUCH A WAY THAT A BALL WOULD REMAIN UNDER THEIR ARMPIT UNTIL THE FOLLWTHROUGH. You're great at insulting people, I'll give you that. But you completely ignore questions when you don't have the answers.

Oh geez not another one.

You're not making sense. I agree with the drill or exercise that places a tennis ball under the arm pit if it helps a player resolve excessive elbow movement in the stroke. I have used it many times to illustrate how the elbow works in a stroke. Is that enough now?

Again, you are taking things to extremes. The ball under the elbow creates a feeling for the POSITION of the elbow during a stroke and helps someone learn the approximate distance from the side of the body the elbow needs to be in as it moves forward to contact. In real play this may move in and out of this location but it will be within balance.

The human body creates its best leverage with the elbow closer to the body. This measurement of a balls distance helps players learn that they need to learn how to have an educated elbow and not have excessive movement which can cause a ton of problems.

Your challenge is unfair. You are not allowing me to swing the racquet while you can. But I tell what I will accept. You swing the way you swing and I will swing the way I swing. I will go anyday with someone forehand to forehand. I think you ought to calm down and try and understand what we are saying.

Here is a pro that is hitting a forehand so you can see what we mean.

http://www.tennisone.com/membership/slo-henman.php

TwistServe
06-11-2005, 03:09 PM
If you guys do play a match or a "game", please record it on DivX or some other medium :).. and allow us to watch.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 03:10 PM
There Is No Way In Hell That A Tennis Ball Will Stay Under Henman's Armpit During That Forehand. And If That's Not What's Happening Then Why Offer It Up As Some Great Tip????

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 03:14 PM
If you guys do play a match or a "game", please record it on DivX or some other medium :).. and allow us to watch.

Bungalow Bill didn't take my challenge. He figured (and rightly so) that it would be nearly impossible to hit decent forehands after placing a tennis ball under his armpit like Kana suggested.

Bungalo Bill
06-11-2005, 03:25 PM
There Is No Way In Hell That A Tennis Ball Will Stay Under Henman's Armpit During That Forehand. And If That's Not What's Happening Then Why Offer It Up As Some Great Tip????

When players play in a dynamic condition there will be times it will be one ball, two balls, three balls, one ball in a half, etc. However, the majority of time the one ball theory is a good teaching tool as it generally lets the arm move naturally and helps reduce injury.

The point to the ball under the arm pit, is again, used to EDUCATE someone on how they are to MOVE their elbow in such a way as to NOT lose control of the racquet face.

Some players swing like a gate with the elbow far away from their body. Some players lift their elbow back and up at contact. This is the point of the ball under the arm pit exercise.

No one is measuring whether a ball can stay under someones armpit the whole match. It wont! It is to get an idea of where the elbow can comfortably pass during the forward motion of the stroke. It is a guideline. The ball under the arm pit helps eliminate elbow roll and players who stick their arm way out from their body and get tennis elbow or swing like a gate.

I am not trying to make fun of you or insult you. If I did I apoligize. I can also get a bit direct about things. Here is a pciture that I believe is showing us what you mean about the elbow.

In this picture the elbow moves away from the body but is not extended out towards the left or right from the side. This is perfectly ok because the circular motion of the elbow will pass relatively close to the side.

http://www.easitennis.com/ExampleAnalysis.html

Also, to support what you are trying to say. Many players have their elbow a little further out from the side then others. This is also acceptable PROVIDING it is not causing excessive damage to the elbow AND they can control the racquet face.

The reason why the elbow can move around more in todays tennis is because of the use of the Western grips. The Western grips have the added benefit of "locking" the wrist with the forearm. The Eastern does not and one who uses the Eastern has to take extra care to fix the wrist as the racquet moves forward.

Bungalo Bill
06-11-2005, 03:33 PM
There Is No Way In Hell That A Tennis Ball Will Stay Under Henman's Armpit During That Forehand. And If That's Not What's Happening Then Why Offer It Up As Some Great Tip????

Because it is and is very useful in teaching.

Bungalo Bill
06-11-2005, 03:37 PM
Bungalow Bill didn't take my challenge. He figured (and rightly so) that it would be nearly impossible to hit decent forehands after placing a tennis ball under his armpit like Kana suggested.

Again the purpose of the ball under the arm pit is to help the body understand how the elbow is to pass.

I think the challenge should be even. I have played a long time. I have an excellent forehand. It is my weapon. But I learned the stupid "ball under the arm pit" way. I learned that one of the best things to do is to keep the elbow close to the body for racquet control and power (leverage).

It is obvious to me that my power will be like an old dog chasing a fox. Your shiney new forehand will be like it is ready for the Daytona 500.

So what do you say? I will play with my old, out-of-date, lousey forehand against your new, high racquet and big elbow movement. I think that is fair dont you?

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 03:38 PM
Because it is and is very useful in teaching.

Yeah, just don't try to actually use it in a $500.00 challenge match.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 03:42 PM
racquet control and power (leverage).

So what do you say? I will play with my old, out-of-date, lousey forehand against your new, high racquet and big elbow movement. I think that is fair dont you?

Old lousey forehand against your new shiney one. What do you say?

Just keep that ball under your armpit and YOU'RE ON!! I'll crush those weak little feeble forehands that you hit right down your throat!!!!!

Bungalo Bill
06-11-2005, 03:45 PM
Just keep that ball under your armpit and YOU'RE ON!! I'll crush those weak little feeble forehands that you hit right down your throat!!!!!

Oh no, I already said the ball under the arm pit is an exercise. People dont play with the ball under the arm pit in a real match but they learn to use it as a guideline.

If you have so much confidence in what you are saying it is clear to me that my forehand is a tired old coon dog. Come on you should easily nail me as I feebly try to keep my elbow close. What do you say, give an old dog a chance to win.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 03:49 PM
Oh no, I already said the ball under the arm pit is an exercise. People dont play with the ball under the arm pit in a real match but they learn to use it as a guideline.

If you have so much confidence in what you are saying it is clear to me that my forehand is a tired old coon dog. Come on you should easily nail me as I feebly try to keep my elbow close. What do you say, give an old dog a chance to win.

Why wouldn't you want to employ such a great tip like keeping the ball under your armpit? When I disagreed with it you put me in my place. Why not put your money where your mouth is and use that great tip to kick my butt??

BECAUSE IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT A DECENT FOREHAND THAT WAY!!

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 03:51 PM
[QUOTE=Bungalo Bill]Oh no, I already said the ball under the arm pit is an exercise. People dont play with the ball under the arm pit in a real match but they learn to use it as a guideline.

Yes. Use it as a guideline of how NOT to hit the ball during a match.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 03:57 PM
Oh geez not another one.



Your challenge is unfair. You are not allowing me to swing the racquet while you can. But I tell what I will accept. You swing the way you swing and I will swing the way I swing. I will go anyday with someone forehand to forehand. I think you ought to calm down and try and understand what we are saying.

]


I'm sure you have a GREAT forehand as long as you don't limit yourself by keeping a ball under your armpit. THAT'S MY WHOLE F***ING POINT!!!

Bungalo Bill
06-11-2005, 04:08 PM
I'm sure you have a GREAT forehand as long as you don't limit yourself by keeping a ball under your armpit. THAT'S MY WHOLE F***ING POINT!!!

You didnt make your point very well and you took things to the extreme and were splitting hairs on everything.

You dont understand what purpose certain exercises are for and why they exist. The ball under the arm pit is an EXCELLENT aid in helping people learn the distance their elbow needs to be from their body.

Again the challenge from me is I will play with my elbow close to my body as if a ball is under my arm pit. It may be a ball, or a ball in a half. But my elbow will not go willy nilly all over the place. It will not go out to the point of being extended like a gate.

You can do whatever the hell you want.

Come on let's get rid of my old out-dated forehand. Let's bury it.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 04:12 PM
You didnt make your point very well and you took things to the extreme and were splitting hairs on everything.

You dont understand what purpose certain exercises are for and why they exist. The ball under the arm pit is an EXCELLENT aid in helping people learn the distance their elbow needs to be from their body.

Again the challenge from me is I will play with my elbow close to my body trying to keep it about a balls distance from my side. It may be a ball, a ball in a half, etc. but my elbow will not be willy nilly all over. It will not go out to the point of being extended like a gate.

You can do whatever the hell you want.

Now we're talking!!!!! So we'll build a little teather, the length of one and a half tennis balls and we'll hook it to your side. For $500.00.!!! You're ON!!!

Bungalo Bill
06-11-2005, 04:14 PM
Now we're talking!!!!! So we'll build a little teather, the length of one and a half tennis balls and we'll hook it to your side. For $500.00.!!! You're ON!!!

Actually you forgot one thing. My elbow may be close to my side but it is allowed to go back and forward further then the distance from my side.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 04:19 PM
Again the challenge from me is I will play with my elbow close to my body as if a ball is under my arm pit. It may be a ball, or a ball in a half.
. How do we make sure of this. These are YOUR words, not mine. And you say I'm not clear?? You backtrack more than Pete Sampras chasing an Agassi topspin lob!!

ATXtennisaddict
06-11-2005, 04:49 PM
U know...I always like to think tennis is picking up a racket, swinging it, and hit the ball over the net.... with all this super-analysis, I am getting a major headache LOL :)

TwistServe
06-11-2005, 04:49 PM
Plus, in the Federer movie, he's barely even warming up. However, STILL note his elbow is fully bent and kept relatively close to the body. Eastern grips do keep slightly further away, but for SW and Western grips it's completely essential.

Thanks for the movies.

You saying federer doesn't use proper form when he is "barely even warming up"... What you're implying is his forehand improves as the match goes on? WRONG!

Also, you can clearly see the elbow is not fully bent.. it is partially bent. At contact the angle the elbow is bent is about 120 degree angle, maybe even more. If it was fully bent he would be able to kiss his palm. Bad choice of words Kana... Either you're blind, extremely exagerating, or just use words incorrectly. Good thing you used the word "relatively close" in the next sentence.

Here is Federer forehand again for your review: http://www.importexpert.com/tennis/Federer_FH.mov

I'm not aruging that the elbow should or shouldnt be bent.. This post is simply trying to show that different grips have variable degrees of bending the elbow.. and that the elbow on federer's forehand is not fully bent as Kana suggest. Go frame by frame you will see at contact the elbow is actually relatively far from the body.

TwistServe
06-11-2005, 05:09 PM
Plus, in the Federer movie, he's barely even warming up. However, STILL note his elbow is fully bent and kept relatively close to the body.

A picture does a thousand words..

Notice the "fully bent" elbow and how it is kept "relatively close" to the body.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/TwistServe/federer_eblow.jpg

http://www.rogerfedererexpress.homestead.com/files/rogerbeatsgrosjean7.jpeg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/TwistServe/fed2.jpg

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 05:18 PM
Uh oh. If Roger had a tennis ball under his armpit, it would be on the ground.
Roger, you need some lessons from Kana, PRONTO!!

ATXtennisaddict
06-11-2005, 05:23 PM
Federer has so many types of forehands though... tennisplayer.net says so.

TwistServe
06-11-2005, 05:30 PM
Federer has so many types of forehands though... tennisplayer.net says so.

I'm not saying federer doesn't have different forehands. Obvioulsy theres a forehand drive, forehand looper, forehand flattened, etc.. I'm not even aruging about the elbow tucked in or bent..

I'm saying Kana claims that federer has a "fully bent" elbow in the video clip I linked.. And thats flat out wrong LoL


Plus, in the Federer movie, he's barely even warming up. However, STILL note his elbow is fully bent and kept relatively close to the body.

Watch this and tell me what you think: http://www.importexpert.com/tennis/Federer_FH.mov

Bungalo Bill
06-11-2005, 06:15 PM
U know...I always like to think tennis is picking up a racket, swinging it, and hit the ball over the net.... with all this super-analysis, I am getting a major headache LOL :)

So the idea of having the elbow in is a super analysis? LOL

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 06:20 PM
U know...I always like to think tennis is picking up a racket, swinging it, and hit the ball over the net.... with all this super-analysis, I am getting a major headache LOL :)

Just shove a tennis ball under your armpit and leave it there. You can't go wrong as long as you don't actuallly try to hit your forehand that way during a match.

krnboijunsung
06-11-2005, 06:49 PM
elbow in? Hmm that is something to think about. My forehand is much more inconsistent than my backhand. My backhand gives me more control.

Another thing that screws my consistency is that when I'm rallying. I wait for the ball to come to me which really doesn't help any stroke because during game you don't get the bounces you get in rallies.

Nice post.

SageOfDeath
06-11-2005, 08:36 PM
umm.. i'll be the first to thank you for your efforts. But i don't really want to read this much, nor do i want to think this much while playing.

If you are learning at a camp then you practice it there but when you're playing a match you apply it. Everything has to be automatic because If you struggling to remember the mechanics of your strokes while your playing a match then you'll just fall apart or hard to reach shot, faster paced balls, and unpredictable shots. As for you not wanting to read this well that's your choice this stuff is like free improvement. :D

Kana Himezaki
06-11-2005, 08:44 PM
Holy crap, look at all the replies.

Thereallovebone - What's so wrong about keeping the elbow in? With SW and Western grips, it's essential for consistency and even power. With an Eastern grip, you're still trying to keep your elbow in close.

Should there be any dispute at all over this? Having your arm almost or completely straight destroys the stroke in general. Keeping it bent and closer to the body is essential.

Putting a ball under your armpit simply helps get a feel for it. All kinds of coaches use this to train players.



And TwistServe - Maybe fully bent was the wrong word. But he does keep it bent and sort of close to the body for what's comfortable with his grip.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 09:10 PM
Kana-
Show me one professional player (besides John McEnroe) who keeps their elbow close to the body all the way until their followthrough. ONE.

I'll challenge you to the same thing I challenged Bungalow Bill to. We play a groundstroke game, forehands crosscourt. You HAVE to keep a tennis ball in your armpit until you followthrough. I'll bet you $500 on two out of three games to twenty one. You've played for three years?? I've played tennis for 30 years. Come on. If this is such a great way to hit the ball then put your money where your mouth is.

TwistServe
06-11-2005, 09:13 PM
Kana-
Show me one professional player (besides John McEnroe) who keeps their elbow close to the body all the way until their followthrough. ONE.

I'll challenge you to the same thing I challenged Bungalow Bill to. We play a groundstroke game, forehands crosscourt. You HAVE to keep a tennis ball in your armpit until you followthrough. I'll bet you $500 on two out of three games to twenty one. You've played for three years?? I've played tennis for 30 years. Come on. If this is such a great way to hit the ball then put your money where your mouth is.

Kana is 16 yrs old. I don't think her allowance is enough to pay you $500 when she loses..

Also the bet isn't fair: you're a man and shes a young female.. not that that matters a 16yr old boy would lose just the same LoL

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 09:16 PM
You have the whole internet at your disposal. Show me ONE forehand where a ball would not fall out of the pros armpit if it were place there. JUST ONE.
If it's such a great way to hit the ball then show me ONE.

Kana Himezaki
06-11-2005, 09:16 PM
You don't keep a tennis ball in your armpit when you're actually playing a match.

You do it in practice to get the feel of it and get used to keeping your armpit closer.



There are plenty of pros. Agassi, Ferrero, almost all of them. Many have large backswings, and the elbow might be further away at the start. But in almost every single one of them, when they begin the swing, the elbow comes in and around before extending again.

Have you seen/read about the Killer Forehand, for example? Bollettieri (yes, I'm using a famous name, even though I haven't been taught by him, TwistServe :D) asks people to find someone to hold their hands two inches away on both sides of the racquet (when at full takeback). The player then has to pull the racquet out without touching the hands, which means they're bringing their elbow in, and swing through.

The pros start out further away because it creates racquet head speed. But they ALWAYS pull it in. Unless they have a crappy forehand, of course.

mylet
06-11-2005, 09:20 PM
Read it. I took the time to write this, you can take the time to read it. If your forehand is inconsistent or you're just looking for tips in general, that is.

It's sort of long, but you can skip to the parts you like that are bolded. And it's an easy read, anyway.

Above all, I tried to keep it as simple as possible. It's not that you're stupid, it's that most people (including myself) have no idea what the hell is going on when you find a huge post filled with frequent referencing of the "kinetic chain" and extremely detailed accounts of the most minute details.

Let's face it, that's not going to help most people. I didn't use any words that a middle schooler can't understand. If you think I did, ask me or scream at me.

Everything in this post links to each other. So expect frequent referencing. These are THE most common mistakes when dealing with inconsistency in forehands.

So...


BACKSWING:

The first thing many people will say is that the backswing is too large when you're asking why your FH is screwing up. This is right most of the time. Some people take the racquet back to even 8'o'clock (in relation to their body), and never realize it. A huge windup means INCONSISTENCY, especially on hard-hit balls.

Before you read the following tips, look at the next section. Then if you THINK you're doing that (which if you're inconsistent, let's face it, you're probably not), absolutely sure it's not your problem, or if you just have a problem with this, too: Read on.

To get used to hitting a shorter backswing, which coincidentally is one of the biggest parts of hitting ON THE RISE, try...

-Keep your elbow in. There's a bigggg section on this later in this post,
READ it. I'm putting it here too because it's important. In order to get
used to this -put a tennis ball in your armpit. And KEEP IT there during
the swing. It shouldn't fall out until after your followthrough.

-Stand INSIDE the baseline. This will force you to take it earlier. This
makes you...turn quicker! (Covered in preparation next more thoroughly)
And...shorter backswing! Wait, I'm taking away time from the opponent,
shortening my backswing, and STILL keeping just as much or more pace
without dealing with a tricky bounce? No way! All the cool kids do it!

-Having a partner serve from the service line at you. This will develop
returns which...coincidentally...are pretty much like hitting on the rise!
THAT'S why Agassi was good at taking the ball early and returning at the
same time! It usually helps people if they see the effects of a shorter
backswing more clearly in returns, then applying it at the baseline.

-Try dropping a ball from your hand close to you and hitting it right at the
bounce. You can't really do that if your racquet is all the way behind you,
right? Shorten the backswing, keep the followthrough, and force a quicker
turn until you can do it right.



PREPARATION: (Read! Read it, dammit!)

HOWEVER, wait to adjust that. It might not be true for you anyway. Are you seeing the ball soon enough? Try to react to the ball as soon as it comes off your opponent's racquet, NOT after it crosses the net like 90% of players do.

As soon as it comes off your opponent's racquet...say "BALL". It helps, and you won't sound stupid if you don't scream it.

Move into position as soon as possible. You have no idea how many juniors get angry and think they're running for every ball when their coach tells them to get to the ball and hustle. Even on shots generally close to you, get into an IDEAL position for yourself.

Then as soon as you can, take your racquet back. You shouldn't arm takeback, most of the backswing should be a direct result from turning the hips and shoulders sideways and coiling the upper body.

Preparation is the single most undervalued part of tennis in the junior world.



KEEPING THE ELBOW IN: (If you're a beginner...you probably don't.)

Another way to increase consistency is KEEPING THE DAMN ELBOW IN. I say "damn" because I find almost every other person my age understands the phrase or sentence much, much better when you simply add a "damn" in it.

You LOSE CONTROL when the arm is away, and you're swinging with a straight arm. If you're scientific, it's harder to direct your body, muscles, and swing when the contact point is further away from your body. Also, when using a straighter arm (as forced by not keeping the elbow in), you're often forcing yourself to use the wrist.

MORE inconsistency there.

Also, keeping the elbow in helps in power slightly, too. When making contact, you're mostly rotating into the ball, your elbow position hasn't changed much. Then, as you make contact, you're extending THROUGH the ball. This creates power and depth. You can't really push through the ball if your arm is straighter.

Consistency, power, AND depth? Wow, I think that's cool.

To refer back to a point I posted in the "backswing section" (somehow, everything seems to FIT TOGETHER), tuck a ball in your armpit. Take your swing, and don't let it fall out until AFTER the followthrough. If it falls out earlier than after that, it means your elbow is too far away. Ouch.



I'll go into more later if I feel like it, or people were able to understand it easily.

This helped me a great deal..thanks for taking the time to write it :-)
regards, Mylet

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 09:21 PM
If you can't find one on the internet, then videotape yourself hitting deep powerful forehands keeping a ball under your armpit until followthrough. Show me how great these forehands look.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 09:24 PM
You don't keep a tennis ball in your armpit when you're actually playing a match.

You do it in practice to get the feel of it and get used to keeping your armpit closer.



There are plenty of pros. Agassi, Ferrero, almost all of them. Many have large backswings, and the elbow might be further away at the start. But in almost every single one of them, when they begin the swing, the elbow comes in and around before extending again.

Have you seen/read about the Killer Forehand, for example? Bollettieri (yes, I'm using a famous name, even though I haven't been taught by him, TwistServe :D) asks people to find someone to hold their hands two inches away on both sides of the racquet (when at full takeback). The player then has to pull the racquet out without touching the hands, which means they're bringing their elbow in, and swing through.

The pros start out further away because it creates racquet head speed. But they ALWAYS pull it in. Unless they have a crappy forehand, of course.
That's different from KEEPING the elbow close. In my original post I say the elbow is pulled close near the time of contact, BUT NOT ON THE TAKEBACK.

Kana Himezaki
06-11-2005, 09:25 PM
They're all great, and more consistent. I don't have a video-tape, and neither
do the people at my club, so I can't borrow. I DO have a camera, but none
high quality or set up for taking pictures at different times during the stroke.

Neither do I have access to a lot of stroke videos, everything is personal knowledge.

If you can supply the videos/pictures, I'll gladly point it out. Watch their elbow start out away from the body. Watch them pull it in as they swing, and note how at contact and close before their elbow is far in.

Bringing it out to in provides more acceleration.

And Mylet - Thanks!



EDIT:: Sorry, I missed your second post.

Nobody ever said it should be kept all the way in on the takeback.

The drill for keeping the elbow in is generally on dropped balls by the instructor or player close by, when they already have the racquet back.

Then, after they have the racquet back, they swing through the ball and the ball falls out at the end.

I'm sorry, I should have cleared that up. It looks like you just misunderstood.

raftermania
06-11-2005, 10:22 PM
Some serious analysis going on here wow.

Anyways, my two (brief) cents:

I've found consciously keeping my elbow attached to my waist is vital when feeding students balls. But in match play, you can't keep your elbow tucked in because of the great variety of bounces and angles which force your body to stretch and in effect take your elbow away from your body.

Remember what sport psychology/pepperdine tennis coach Allen Fox said:

Over-analysis leads to Physical Paralysis

Kana Himezaki
06-11-2005, 10:24 PM
Over analysis is bad, yes. But knowing what to do, and gradually making efforts to get your body to use it is essential.

The bounces and angles will force you into awkward positions.

However, if you have the time at all, or are in position, there is no excuse for not keeping the elbow in during the swing.

When the elbow is out, it usually means it's a desperate ball or a last second change in timing. If the ball is in your zone, even if it's especially high or low, you should try to keep your elbow in as best you can.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 10:25 PM
If you can supply the videos/pictures, I'll gladly point it out. Watch their elbow start out away from the body. Watch them pull it in as they swing, and note how at contact and close before their elbow is far in.

Bringing it out to in provides more acceleration.

.

That's exactly what I said. That's how to hit a forehand correctly.

Kana Himezaki
06-11-2005, 10:29 PM
Sorry if I missed it. The main point is that during the swing (not the backswing, as I didn't point out clearly enough) the elbow is kept in.

For the majority of juniors and people who are working out their forehands, it's more detrimental to start out with the elbow away and move it in. The main point of the drill is simply getting the feel for hitting with the elbow in, which is absolutely essential.

Pulling it back at the start for these people will simply lead to more inconsistency.

As said in the "Why your volleys suck." thread, which is similar to this one, these are intended for general trouble-shooting and quick fixes that many people have problems with and are easy to change.

Adding on tips for more acceleration simply gets people more confused and into a power craze, where they forget the tips and just swing as hard as they can.

The stuff in the thread builds consistency and clean contact, the foundation for any power at all. Which is why slow swings can still have pace.

Power and acceleration is the end product.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 10:29 PM
When the elbow is out, it usually means it's a desperate ball or a last second change in timing. If the ball is in your zone, even if it's especially high or low, you should try to keep your elbow in as best you can.


What?!? WHICH IS IT!! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!

Kana Himezaki
06-11-2005, 10:31 PM
I've ALREADY SAID IT.

From your point, the elbow moves in during the swing. I believe raftermania is describing contact and the SWING.

NOT THE BACKSWING, or setup!

Or did you get confused again about the racquet starting away from the body and moving in for the swing?

finchy
06-11-2005, 10:34 PM
Some serious analysis going on here wow.

Anyways, my two (brief) cents:

I've found consciously keeping my elbow attached to my waist is vital when feeding students balls. But in match play, you can't keep your elbow tucked in because of the great variety of bounces and angles which force your body to stretch and in effect take your elbow away from your body.

Remember what sport psychology/pepperdine tennis coach Allen Fox said:

Over-analysis leads to Physical Paralysis

that last statement is so true. my coach told me that i was too technical with my strokes. i finally relaxed and let my body do what i thought it to do and im playing the best tennis i have ever played.

by the way, when feeding students balls, do not do something you would not do in a match. say, feed with a full western grip and push up to dink it. if you do, thats what you are training your body to do and you will do it in a real match. fyi anyways..

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 10:35 PM
For the majority of juniors and people who are working out their forehands, it's more detrimental to start out with the elbow away and move it in. The main point of the drill is simply getting the feel for hitting with the elbow in, which is absolutely essential.

Pulling it back at the start for these people will simply lead to more inconsistency.



Wow , a new position!!! A new one every hour!!!

Kana Himezaki
06-11-2005, 10:38 PM
It's the same position. I've described it in every post I made.

You quoted what I've been trying to say over and over again. The pros start out with the racquet away, but pull the elbow in for the entire swing.

For juniors, and people just trying to learn how to keep the elbow in for the swing, it's best to just start by keeping the elbow in the entire swing, and not pull it in at the start. The drill helps develop the feel for it, and is extremely useful in letting the person adapt.

Have I not been phrasing this well enough? I've been consistent every time. Pros pull it in for the swing. People learning keep it in the whole time. The drill helps.

Those last three sentences are as simple as I can get.

Does this make myself completely clear to you?

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 10:40 PM
If you can supply the videos/pictures, I'll gladly point it out. Watch their elbow start out away from the body. Watch them pull it in as they swing, and note how at contact and close before their elbow is far in.

Bringing it out to in provides more acceleration.

.


I know you've said so many different things that it's probably hard to keep them straight. But take your quote above, print it out, put it on your wall , memorize it, and STICK WITH IT!!!

Kana Himezaki
06-11-2005, 10:42 PM
I have stuck with it. Have you read the last few sentences in the post before yours...?

Pulling the elbow in from an out position builds acceleration, and is advanced. But the people reading this thread just need to learn how to keep the elbow in.

It might also help to lay off the exclamation marks, you sound like you're having a seizure.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 10:45 PM
I have stuck with it. Have you read the last few sentences in the post before yours...?

Pulling the elbow in from an out position builds acceleration, and is advanced. But the people reading this thread just need to learn how to keep the elbow in.

It might also help to lay off the exclamation marks, you sound like you're having a seizure.

Your posts make it seem like you have A.D.D.

Kana Himezaki
06-11-2005, 10:47 PM
Thanks, at least they help people.

Not to mention that if I had A.D.D., it might be more like:

"KeeFHDp youFHDr elboFGHWGADSw in.asfda!!!!" :D

If I do actually seem to type like that, oh well. I sound random, but
people still seem to get the point from the thread.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 10:52 PM
Thanks, at least they help people.

.

I feel sorry for the poor guy who goes out on the court tomorrow and tries to hit forehands with a tennis ball under his armpit. I would rather learn from the pros than some half baked tip that you came up with that I bet you don't even do yourself in your matches.

Kana Himezaki
06-11-2005, 10:56 PM
I said it before. You DON'T have the ball tucked in your armpit in matches.

It's a tool during the swing (not backswing) to help people adjust to keeping the elbow in. It's a practice tool.

Local coaches use it, international coaches use it, Bollettieri uses it. As an example of a famous name that STILL uses the mechanism.

I keep the elbow in during the swing in matches whenever I can. It's a good habit that'll help consistency and driving through the ball.

I fail to see what's so bad about it.

If you feel there is a better way to help people keep your elbow in during the swing, I invite you to try it. Even you have agreed that keeping the elbow in is essential during the swing.

raftermania
06-11-2005, 10:56 PM
that last statement is so true. my coach told me that i was too technical with my strokes. i finally relaxed and let my body do what i thought it to do and im playing the best tennis i have ever played.

by the way, when feeding students balls, do not do something you would not do in a match. say, feed with a full western grip and push up to dink it. if you do, thats what you are training your body to do and you will do it in a real match. fyi anyways..

Feed with a full western grip? Nope, but I play with a full western grip.

Push up to dink it? Because of the nature of feeding, I think dinking is sometimes necessary, primarily when you want to draw your students to the net by hitting an approach shot.

If players are learning new technique, it is best to give them the best learning environment possible. That means you should use an eastern grip and put little to no spin on the ball.

If you're teaching your students to keep their elbows in like Kana is protesting, you shouldn't feed your students heavy topspin feeds that kick up and over their heads!

Am I understanding your suggestion correctly, Finchy?

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 11:07 PM
BACKSWING:



-Keep your elbow in. There's a bigggg section on this later in this post,
READ it. I'm putting it here too because it's important. In order to get
used to this -put a tennis ball in your armpit. And KEEP IT there during
the swing. It shouldn't fall out until after your followthrough.

-
-Try dropping a ball from your hand close to you and hitting it right at the
bounce. You can't really do that if your racquet is all the way behind you,
right? Shorten the backswing, keep the followthrough, and force a quicker
turn until you can do it right.



[ .



[
To refer back to a point I posted in the "backswing section" (somehow, everything seems to FIT TOGETHER), tuck a ball in your armpit. Take your swing, and don't let it fall out until AFTER the followthrough. If it falls out earlier than after that, it means your elbow is too far away. Ouch.



.

What the hell are you talking about?? Here is your original post talking about keeping the elbow tucked in on the backswing.

Thereallovebone
06-11-2005, 11:11 PM
I
It's a tool during the swing (not backswing) to help people adjust to keeping the elbow in. It's a practice tool.


.

Here's your last post.

Kana Himezaki
06-11-2005, 11:13 PM
I'm sorry then, it was improperly classified in the backswing section.

Fortunately, I believe I have been talking about the swing in at least five posts after that, all of which you have read and responded to.

Thanks for pointing it out, next time, it'd help if you could get to the point sooner.

I'll edit it tomorrow, I need sleep. And anyone who's been reading the last few posts knows what to correct, anyway.

Goodnight. Try to be more direct, the ones you've been yelling at me about for the last many posts have all been right.


edit:: Yes, I believe that was my last post. And it was the point of the last five or so posts I've made.

Thank you.

Second edit:: I realized I spelled edit wrong the first time with an extra "t". Of course, I could've just added the extra "t" because it needed the letter to describe how extra "cool" it was.

Also, because it's been bugging me, and I don't really care or know if you got the point of the post or not, I realize that you've been talking about the backswing the entire time, and somehow didn't get that I was talking about the swing in all my later posts even though I said it specifically and simply.

Just say "you put it in the backswing part of your original post". :D Thanks for finding the mistake.

ShooterMcMarco
06-11-2005, 11:17 PM
fixed wrist?

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 08:37 AM
Just shove a tennis ball under your armpit and leave it there. You can't go wrong as long as you don't actuallly try to hit your forehand that way during a match.

Thereallovebone,

Why don't we agree on this. You obviously don't agree with the one ball under the arm pit tennis guideline and take it in such a literal sense that it doesn't make sense to you. That is fine with me. You have a right to your own opinion.

I on the other hand believe in it. I have used it properly with others and other with myself to illustrate an elbow that needs to stay down as it brings the racquet towards contact. No one shoves a tennis ball under the arm pit and leaves it there. It is used as an illustration, a training aid, etc. It is also an exercise that I will stick with and use when needed. Is that fine with you?

Several weeks ago I spoke of a Doctor friend that had a lot of elbow roll in his stroke. I told him to keep his elbow down and allow the arm to move freely. He didnt understand this at first. So I did the ball under the arm pit theory and made him keep it there. I wanted to isloate the elbow and teach him how to rotate and bring the racquet into the ball. I then fed him slow balls so he could get the feel. At first, the ball dropped on the ground as he improperly incorporated his elbow movment as he hit. Also, his elbow for the most part was too far extended from his body and he lost control on a lot of balls. After about 20 minutes of this exercise (yes, he was very restricted) I let him hit normally. For the first 10 minutes, he got the feeling and his excessive elbow movement was reduced.

Did the elbow stop moving? Absolutely not. My goal was to have it move in such a way so he could be more consistent with his stroke path and the way his racquet face met the ball.

Also on the challenge, I will gladly take you on forehand to forehand - I will even let you take the duece court as I am lefthanded and would have to do a bit more running around the ball to execute. Don't confuse elbow movement and elbow distance. The elbow passing close to the body is a staple in how a tennis ball is hit.

The only thing I ask in the challenge is that my elbow is free to move as it is part of the kinetic chain. It will pass close to my side and I will not extend it out like a gate. The point is the elbow will be close to the body. You can do whatever you want. I think that is fair as there are no restrictions in anyone's ability to strike the ball cleanly. What do you say.

Why dont we leave it at "that we agree to disagree". I want to still respect you and it is fine with me if you don't agree.

Thereallovebone
06-12-2005, 09:21 AM
Bungalow Bill-
Alot of beginners and novices come to this site to learn how to play tennis.
I saw something in Kana's original post that I disagreed with. Namely, I felt on your backswing you would be better off raising the elbow than keeping it tucked close to your side. I said in my earlier post that it's OK to bring the elbow close to your side near the time of contact, just don't limit yourself on the backswing. Then you step in and say that I "MIGHT WANT TO STUDY MORE BEFORE I CHIME IN AND START TWISTING WORDS AROUND". Well, I have to admit that ****ed me off. You may bully 99% of the people on this board around, but I'm one of the 1% who's not going to take any of your S**T. If you'll notice, in her last post Kana says that she really didn't mean to say that you need to keep your elbow tight on the backswing. She says
"it was improperly classified in the backswing section, Thanks for finding my mistake". Maybe I had a good point after all?

krnboijunsung
06-12-2005, 10:22 AM
What a war. It was the same posts over and over between you and kana.

By the way, who's the girl in kanas avatar?

Return_Ace
06-12-2005, 10:27 AM
It's her, who the girl in your avatar? It's taken from one of her pictures in the "your picture thread where she's doing a backhand kill.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 10:37 AM
Exactly, I was repeating myself, and he was repeating his self. I'm glad it's over.

krnboi - That's me in the picture. You get a bigger view and whatever if you find it in the "your picture" thread. There are multiple other pictures near the end, I believe.

ShooterMcMarco
06-12-2005, 10:42 AM
can u explain in more detail what elbow roll is?

Return_Ace
06-12-2005, 10:44 AM
Going a little OT but......................Kana how are you 15? I mean ur bday s like before mine yet I'm gonna be 16 this year, how does that work:confused:

Now back on topic what is elbow roll kana?

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 10:47 AM
Bungalow Bill-
Alot of beginners and novices come to this site to learn how to play tennis.
I saw something in Kana's original post that I disagreed with. Namely, I felt on your backswing you would be better off raising the elbow than keeping it tucked close to your side.

Yes, just from this comment which I probably skimmed over you are right. The elbow is free to move for the backswing and it is good for it to rise for several reasons I already mentioned. Where we disagreed was what this rise in the elbow contributed to.

You're right a lot of beginners and novices do come here. I have posted over 3,000 threads and posts to help people and their tennis.

THE LAST THING I WOULD WANT THEM TO THINK IS THE ELBOW PROVIDES A HUGE AMOUNT OF POWER WHICH IS POOR ADVICE. That is a recipe for disaster.

A stoke needs to be developed. Raising the elbow and other things IS NOT something to focus on. The elbow needs ot move naturally when someone learns and if they have a rolling elbow or make contact with their arm to far extended, you better believe the "ball under the arm pit" is appropriate for them to do. Again, you dont know a thing about teaching tennis and only come at it from a playing perspective. You can count on being challenged again from me.

Now, what we agree on is that the elbow can rise to prepare the backswing if a player wants to do that BUT it is certainly NOT necessary to generate racquet speed or control.

...said in my earlier post that it's OK to bring the elbow close to your side near the time of contact, just don't limit yourself on the backswing...

A player can do many different things on the backswing. Some players extend (Roddick backswing) and others dont. Some players do not have a large amount of elbow movement and others do on the backswing. IT IS NOT A REQUIREMENT.

Then you step in and say that I "MIGHT WANT TO STUDY MORE BEFORE I CHIME IN AND START TWISTING WORDS AROUND". Well, I have to admit that ****ed me off. You may bully 99% of the people on this board around, but I'm one of the 1% who's not going to take any of your S**T. If you'll notice, in her last post Kana says that she really didn't mean to say that you need to keep your elbow tight on the backswing. She says
"it was improperly classified in the backswing section, Thanks for finding my mistake". Maybe I had a good point after all?

You did have a good point but went about it completely wrong. I took issue with the information you brought in and still do! You do need to study more. You took things out of context and said the elbow is the reason for a HUGE amount of power. Sorry, no way.

I don't think anyone is trying to bully anyone - I think you could have made your point a long time ago without getting highly emotional about it.

Still want that challenge. You brought it up and if we are in agreement with a fair challenge (my lousey arm pit stroke against your shiney new stroke). Do you live in California? I want the challenge. like I said we can even do this from the duece court which will require at times a bit more footwork to get around a ball.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 10:50 AM
I accidentally put the wrong date for the birthday, my bad.

Thereallovebone and BB - It was my mistake. You're both right. TRLB (LOL.) simply was trying to talk about the backswing. The drill of tucking the ball in and keeping the elbow close is during the SWING, as I stated multiple times in repeating myself.

He was just confused, and there was an error within the original post.

TLRB says keeping the elbow out in the backswing is ideal, which is pretty much true. BB and I say that keepin the elbow in in the forward swing is ideal, which is pretty much true. End of story, everyone's right. Backswing and swing are different things.


As for elbow roll - it's simply the elbow moving around freely and loose, and moving around during the stroke. Keeping the elbow in allows you to control and direct this movement, eliminating the "rolling around".

Return_Ace
06-12-2005, 10:55 AM
Alright everybody END OF ARGUMENT:

RESULT: EVERYBODY WAS RIGHT!!!!!!!!

So then Kana what is your real bday then? 1990, i'm guessing..........

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 10:57 AM
December 19th, 1989.

I put in the wrong month. :P

Return_Ace
06-12-2005, 10:59 AM
HAHAHAHAHA Yet another december lol, Most of my friends have bdays in December. Oh cr*p I just realised, YOU'RE OLDER THAN ME BY 11 DAYS OMG THAT IS SOOOOOOOO UNFAIR!!!!!!!!!!!GRRRRRRRRRRRR :)

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 11:03 AM
LOL. December...30th? That's like...

Christmas. Then your birthday. Then New Year's. Holy crap.

Where I live, most people are born in September. I dunno why. Actually, it's the 9th month of the year, which means...

Uh...

Most people where I live's parents were "busy" during Christmas. Or they just got drunk on New Year's Eve.

For the sake of the original topic, should I write about anything next...? I could go further on volleys, since I just did basics in that thread, or just move on to serves or backhands. Or footwork, since so many people have problems with that here.

Thereallovebone
06-12-2005, 11:04 AM
[QUOTE=Bungalo Bill]]



I think you had a good point on the backswing up until you said it provides a HUGE amount of power. That is when I took issue and you are still wrong for saying that as well!!! You also took things way to literal and failed to see what was trying to be said on this limited medium.

QUOTE]

To illustrate my point about the raised elbow providing power:
Back in the mid to late 70's, I trained at the Port Washington Tennis Academy on Long Island. As a teaching tool, they said to picture that you are "spanking" someone who is in front of you and to your right. If you really wanted to give them a wallop what would you do? Try taking your right arm, bringing it straight down to your hip and moving it forward in a spanking motion. How much power can you generate? Now if you REALLY WANT TO GENERATE HAND SPEED, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? You would turn your shoulders, RAISE YOUR ELBOW and come around in a loop, really putting your weight into it. Try it and tell me which one generates more hand speed. THAT'S what I mean by a raised elbow providing more power.

Return_Ace
06-12-2005, 11:08 AM
Yep Dec 30th, best thing is:

24th - christmas eve.....party
25th - christmas day.....party
26th - boxing day.........presents
27th - nothing..............relax
28th - parents anniversary.....party
29th - nothing..............relax
30th - my bday............party
31st - New Yrs Eve........party
1st - New Years Day......party

Great being born in Dec :)

How bout doing correct serve technique since I fried my shoulder last week after trying to kill a serve, didn't play for a whole week, played up again yesterday where I served better than I ever have before, and then played crap 2day in my match.........

Thereallovebone
06-12-2005, 11:16 AM
THE LAST THING I WOULD WANT THEM TO THINK IS THE ELBOW PROVIDES A HUGE AMOUNT OF POWER WHICH IS POOR ADVICE. That is a recipe for disaster which you have no clue of.





?
Talk about twisting words around. Nice Try. I NEVER SAID THE ELBOW PROVIDES A HUGE AMOUNT OF POWER. I SAID RAISING THE ELBOW ON THE BACKSWING CREATES A SHAPE OF SWING THAT IS MORE POWERFUL THAN KEEPING THE ELBOW LOCKED AT YOUR SIDE ON THE BACKSWING. IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT HOW TO GENERATE POWER.

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 11:21 AM
I accidentally put the wrong date for the birthday, my bad.

Thereallovebone and BB - It was my mistake. You're both right. TRLB (LOL.) simply was trying to talk about the backswing. The drill of tucking the ball in and keeping the elbow close is during the SWING, as I stated multiple times in repeating myself.

He was just confused, and there was an error within the original post.

TLRB says keeping the elbow out in the backswing is ideal, which is pretty much true. BB and I say that keepin the elbow in in the forward swing is ideal, which is pretty much true. End of story, everyone's right. Backswing and swing are different things.


As for elbow roll - it's simply the elbow moving around freely and loose, and moving around during the stroke. Keeping the elbow in allows you to control and direct this movement, eliminating the "rolling around".

Dont worry about it Kana. I understood what you were saying in the article. For a majority of the article you were right. It is a good thing for the elbow to pass close to the body. The human body would find it very awkward to be prevented to have a backswing and with that the elbow has to move.

Do not agree that the elbow is out from the body and that is the proper and ONLY way to have your backswing work. For some it is closer to the body, for others it is more back and close, and yet others more out and back.

It is easy to pick apart someones article when they meant well. This guy also posted false information about the elbow providing a HUGE amount of power which is also wrong.

I understood what you were saying the whole time and I am sure others did to. It is too bad someone takes things so literal and fails to see the purpose behind an exercise or someones efforts to help.

I would be careful on the use of swear words or controversial words that provided emphasis on things. I can sometimes be guilty of this as well. But kids do read these articles. It is hard not to get drawn into a fight especially when someone is stubborn and cant get out from the trees.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 11:25 AM
Thanks, I'm glad I at least got the point across.

As for the swear words and kids, I AM a kid. I think most of us are guilty of swear words, I incorporate them into colloquial speech when I'm trying to get a point across.

It's a habit I need to get rid of. I'm also sort of stubborn as well, so it doesn't help when people begin arguments I feel the need to continue them. :P



As for the elbow providing a huge amount of power, it DOES provide extra acceleration. I've worked with it and do it in normal strokes. However, it's not what the people reading the article are aiming for, and the extra acceleration is not huge. It's a topic I'll cover later on in a future post.

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 11:30 AM
Thanks, I'm glad I at least got the point across.

As for the swear words and kids, I AM a kid. I think most of us are guilty of swear words, I incorporate them into colloquial speech when I'm trying to get a point across.

It's a habit I need to get rid of. I'm also sort of stubborn as well, so it doesn't help when people begin arguments I feel the need to continue them. :P



As for the elbow providing a huge amount of power, it DOES provide extra acceleration. I've worked with it and do it in normal strokes. However, it's not what the people reading the article are aiming for, and the extra acceleration is not huge. It's a topic I'll cover later on in a future post.

May I ask how old are you? I am 46 years old. I have played tennis since I was eight. I have played college level tennis and have studied the sport of tennis for a long time. I have coached at Vic Bradens Tennis College and am USPTA Certified.

On this board and with your direct use of the english language you do not need to use swear words to emphasize something. You can use underlines, bolds, and italics to do so. You already come across with an authoritative tone and that is ok. Some people will not like it and yo will always risk someone misinterpreting things here. Keep posting.

You cant please everyone. During college, in a speech and debate class, we learned that one-third of the people will agree with you, one-third will be neutral, and the other third will disagree with you. Just keep that in mind when you continue to post.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 11:32 AM
May I ask how old are you? I am 46 years old. I have played tennis since I was eight. I have played college level tennis and have studied the sport of tennis for a long time. I have coached at Vic Bradens Tennis College and am USPTA Certified.

Kana is like 16, has been playing tennis for like 2 years, and professionally certified by the kiddies on this site in TAITC (teachers aid in tennis coaching)... She has taught other juniors age 5-6 on how to hold a racquet, and believes firmly that men and women are equals in this sport. Her credientials show she was taught by Bollittieri himself, even though it was through watching the "Killing Forehands" video.

lol just playing

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 11:37 AM
I was born on December 19th, 1989 as stated. I'm 15.

The birthday in the profile is wrong, I should change that.

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 11:39 AM
Well shes 16 means she was born on 1989 if she turned 16 in 2005, or 1988 if she is going to turn 17 towards the end of this year.

That is awesome only 15 years old!

Good going Kana, keep those posts coming. I hope my daughter is this bold and willing to take a risk with her insight on things.

I am sure you are learning a lot about communication, coaching and how one perceives what you are saying. I am sure that a lot of the good coaches on this board admire your efforts. Do not lose heart when someone challenges you.

If you are right never give in. If you are wrong, admit it and move on. Many people here will put words in your mouth so be tough and unrelenting.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 11:41 AM
That is awesome only about 17 years old. Good going Kana, keep those posts coming. I hope my daughter is this bold and willing to take a risk with her insight on things.

I am sure you are learning a lot about communication, coaching and how one perceives what you are saying. I am sure that a lot of the good coaches on this board admire your efforts. do not lose heart when someone challenges you. If you are right never give in. If you are wrong, admit it.

Ya that is true. When you post a tip on the boards sometimes you'll get challenged. I've been wrong before and will admit it.. when you're right then its fun proving the other is wrong.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 11:42 AM
May I ask how old are you? I am 46 years old. I have played tennis since I was eight. I have played college level tennis and have studied the sport of tennis for a long time. I have coached at Vic Bradens Tennis College and am USPTA Certified.

On this board and with your direct use of the english language you do not need to use swear words to emphasize something. You can use underlines, bolds, and italics to do so. You already come across with an authoritative tone and that is ok. Some people will not like it and yo will always risk someone misinterpreting things here. Keep posting.

You cant please everyone. During college, in a speech and debate class, we learned that one-third of the people will agree with you, one-third will be neutral, and the other third will disagree with you. Just keep that in mind when you continue to post.


I'm 15, been playing tennis for over three years almost daily. I have...picked up whatever I have from some searching online and mostly personal experience.

As for the swear words, I'm working to fix it. :D Authoritative tone? Supercool. The words, strange phrases, and some colloquial speech helps make the post simpler, while making it distinct from articles everywhere else.

Same thing I need to work on with stubbornness. If I read a post against me, my natural reaction is to reply immediately in response. Same thing on the court, I refuse to lose. If I take the time to think, I can almost always calm myself down and simply leave. But often, I just click reply and say whatever's on the top of my head.

Kana is like 16, has been playing tennis for like 2 years, and professionally certified by the kiddies on this site in TAITC (teachers aid in tennis coaching)... She has taught other juniors age 5-6 on how to hold a racquet, and believes firmly that men and women are equals in this sport. Her credientials show she was taught by Bollittieri himself, even though it was through watching the "Killing Forehands" video.

lol just playing

I'm like 15, been playing for three years, and am not certified at all. LOL, certified by TW teenagers? I could be a qualified member of the "YPWWTWTBH". Young People who want to whack the ball harder, lol.

I was never taught by Bollettieri, have never seen the killer forehand video, but read part of the guy's book on that.

Second edit::

That is awesome only 15 years old!

Good going Kana, keep those posts coming. I hope my daughter is this bold and willing to take a risk with her insight on things.

I am sure you are learning a lot about communication, coaching and how one perceives what you are saying. I am sure that a lot of the good coaches on this board admire your efforts. Do not lose heart when someone challenges you.

If you are right never give in. If you are wrong, admit it and move on. Many people here will put words in your mouth so be tough and unrelenting.

Thanks again. I'm "bold" to the point of being irrational. But I at least think the stuff I say is correct, it works for me.

As for people challenging me...I'm not about to lose, period. Once again, I'm competitive to a fault. I don't look like I lose heart I've been proven outright wrong. Which hasn't happened. I think.

Same thing with people putting words in my mouth. That's fine, they're just confused about it. If I can prove myself right, I'll do it. Sometimes the information I provide is actually wrong, that's fine. I'll give credit to them. I'm willing to accept that. I'm 15, I won't get better at explaining and teaching if I don't get criticism anyway.

LOL, actually, I enjoy the TW flamewars. No better way to express full knowledge of the subject, or actually learn something.

Well, you learn something until everyone moves into personal insults and posts crap around the entire board on all sides.

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 12:06 PM
[QUOTE=Bungalo Bill]]



I think you had a good point on the backswing up until you said it provides a HUGE amount of power. That is when I took issue and you are still wrong for saying that as well!!! You also took things way to literal and failed to see what was trying to be said on this limited medium.

QUOTE]

To illustrate my point about the raised elbow providing power:
Back in the mid to late 70's, I trained at the Port Washington Tennis Academy on Long Island. As a teaching tool, they said to picture that you are "spanking" someone who is in front of you and to your right. If you really wanted to give them a wallop what would you do? Try taking your right arm, bringing it straight down to your hip and moving it forward in a spanking motion. How much power can you generate? Now if you REALLY WANT TO GENERATE HAND SPEED, WHAT WOULD YOU DO? You would turn your shoulders, RAISE YOUR ELBOW and come around in a loop, really putting your weight into it. Try it and tell me which one generates more hand speed. THAT'S what I mean by a raised elbow providing more power.

Your elbow is not the main source nor a huge source of power. However, it is part of the kinetic chain so it does help transfer kinetic energy into the ball.

The elbow intiates the forward swing by coming forward. Very shortly the shoulder rotation speeds up while the elbow is slowing down. Shoulder rotation begins to slow down and gives way to the wrist release which is the final burst of speed INTO THE BALL. Once contact is made the wrist slows down. Wrist release is a preference and not a requirement. Please study this.

I still want the challenge. Do you live in California?

0.2RatedPlayer
06-12-2005, 12:12 PM
so BB, do you hit with a fixed wrist or with a wrist release?

Return_Ace
06-12-2005, 12:14 PM
Kana haven't you seen in the Rants and Raves section? You have a WHOLE THREAD created to say just how awesome you are :) (and no it wasn't me :))

Meat
06-12-2005, 12:21 PM
Holy crap.

She has a post?

edit:: I know Kana from school. I guess she's well known here.

Second edit:: Well, not high school, we go to different ones. But we shared the same middle school and my parents know hers.

Thereallovebone
06-12-2005, 12:26 PM
[QUOTE=Thereallovebone]

Your elbow is not the main source nor a huge source of power. However, it is part of the kinetic chain so it does help transfer kinetic energy into the ball.

The elbow intiates the forward swing by coming forward. Very shortly the shoulder rotation speeds up while the elbow is slowing down. Shoulder rotation begins to slow down and gives way to the wrist release which is the final burst of speed INTO THE BALL. Once contact is made the wrist slows down. Wrist release is a preference and not a requirement. Please study this.

I still want the challenge. Do you live in California?

I noticed you didn't answer my question. Which generates more hand speed?
Going straight down with your elbow to your hip or raising your elbow and coming around in a loop.

I notice that you just ignore questions that you have no answer for and when I make a point that raising the elbow creates a swing shape with more power, you can't argue with that so you you change it to "THAT GUY SAYS THE ELBOW IS A HUGE SOURCE OF POWER." That's really underhanded and dirty. But hey, if you can't win an arguement fair and square, you have no choice.

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 08:27 PM
[QUOTE=Bungalo Bill]

I noticed you didn't answer my question. Which generates more hand speed?
Going straight down with your elbow to your hip or raising your elbow and coming around in a loop.

I notice that you just ignore questions that you have no answer for and when I make a point that raising the elbow creates a swing shape with more power, you can't argue with that so you you change it to "THAT GUY SAYS THE ELBOW IS A HUGE SOURCE OF POWER." That's really underhanded and dirty. But hey, if you can't win an arguement fair and square, you have no choice.

Geez, dude come on! You have not addressed my challenge? I so badly want you to teach me a lesson. I need one. LOL.

Here is my answer to your question. The elbow by your side will easily have the ability to create faster hand speed!!! A smaller link will always move faster then a larger link! LOL, You just answered your own question! Speed is from smaller links, power comes from larger links.

In fact, you can do that test to see for yourself. With a relaxed wrist and your elbow at your side, it doesnt take much to flick the wrist back and forth at a high rate of speed. Now try it by taking your elbow up and back and then forward. Little more awkward, huh?

This is why players that do not use a big loop takeback can crush the ball as well! My friend, hand speed is generated from the wrist being allowed to release. It is not from the elbow being taken back or moving forward.

The reason SOME players like the loop is because if racquet speed is equal, it takes LESS muscle recruitment to get the racquet up to the same speed. There are always diminishing returns in timing and making clean contact. But a loop takeback can happen in several ways including keeping the elbow close to the body. Some loop swings are smaller and some larger!

When the elbow is taken back and the racquet goes up and back, the momentum from the racquet is not coming from the elbow. It is coming from gravity and you allowing the racquet to drop.

The critical and most important components to generate HUGE amounts of power comes from your hips in relation to your shoulder rotation. The elbow has no forceful mechanism to push the power barrier. Sorry.

Here is an article on the role of the elbow. Keep studying.

http://www.easitennis.com/GettingStarted.htm

tennisplayer
06-12-2005, 08:35 PM
Hey Kana, BB - give up on "Thereallovebone" - whatever that means. You see, some time ago, he was too late avoiding an overhead, and so he has a tennis ball wedged in his brain. He's never going to agree to playing with a ball wedged anywhere else, including the armpit! Don't waste good energy on a bad prospect!

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 08:37 PM
Hey Kana, BB - give up on "Thereallovebone" - whatever that means. You see, some time ago, he was too late avoiding an overhead, and so he has a tennis ball wedged in his brain. He's never going to agree to playing with a ball wedged anywhere else, including the armpit! Don't waste good energy on a bad prospect!

Another admirable post from the tennisplayer. How old are you? This isn't the rants and rage board. Please keep your personal attacks outside. Please.

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 08:40 PM
so BB, do you hit with a fixed wrist or with a wrist release?

I use the wrist release. You want to be able to eventually do this. When you take the racquet back try to keep the wrist in a fixed position to control the movement of the racquet head. Fixed does not mean tight or stiff. Your wrist is still elastic but it has enough tension to not let the racquet head droop or move widely about.

As you come forward, right when you think you are going to make contact, let it go. Dont think about it and relax through the followthrough. This is what Mahboob dubbed "the educated wrist".

My wrist release works hand in hand with the heel of my palm against the butt of the racquet handle. This gives stability which helps me relax my fingers a bit on the handle. I hold the racquet just hard enough that you would have to tug on it a couple of times to pull it out of my hand.

Hope that helps.

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 08:46 PM
Hey Kana, BB - give up on "Thereallovebone" - whatever that means. You see, some time ago, he was too late avoiding an overhead, and so he has a tennis ball wedged in his brain. He's never going to agree to playing with a ball wedged anywhere else, including the armpit! Don't waste good energy on a bad prospect!

LOL, well I always believe everyone needs to understand and the lightbulb will come on. But I am beginning to see in this case, it may not happen till sometime in the future. :)

tennisplayer
06-12-2005, 08:51 PM
You see, TwistServe - and Thereallovebone - I feel you are both destructive influences on a well-functioning tips board. I usually let these things pass, but somehow today, I feel enraged at your needless nitpicking. Don't you have the maturity to let go of little things, and look at the big picture?

Well, I should know how useless it is to make a point like this to folks with a destructive bent. I will stop posting useless sh*t and read the stuff that matters.

Thereallovebone
06-12-2005, 08:51 PM
I saw you bragging earlier that you taught at the Vic Braden Tennis Academy.
Here's what Vic has to say on the subject:

What I'm advocating in this book is a loop swing as opposed to straight back.
This is a controversial issue among teaching pros, YET I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT MOST OF THOSE WHO TEACH "STRAIGHT BACK" USE THE LOOP WHEN THEY GO OUT AND PLAY-as does viritually every single player in pro tennis, with the exception of Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe.

To visualize the loop swing,try to think of a little hairpin turn taken in two parts. First, bring the racket back at eye level and wait for the approaching ball. Then, in a continuous motion, drop the racket and your hitting hand 12 inches below the intended point of impact, and come forward and up through the ball, toward your target.

Those straight-back hitters who learn it right-by taking the racket back at waist level and then dropping it to knee level-are actually using a modified loop swing. FAR MORE OFTEN, HOWEVER,THOSE PEOPLE WHO GET THE RACKET LOW DO SO BY TAKING THE RACKET STRAIGHT DOWN ON A DIAGONAL LINE TO THE LOWEST POINT OF THE BACKSWING, WHICH OF COURSE COSTS THEM A POWER-PRODUCING LOOP.



Gee, I wonder why he canned your ***.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 08:55 PM
You see, TwistServe - and Thereallovebone - I feel you are both destructive influences on a well-functioning tips board. I usually let these things pass, but somehow today, I feel enraged at your needless nitpicking. Don't you have the maturity to let go of little things, and look at the big picture?

Well, I should know how useless it is to make a point like this to folks with a destructive bent. I will stop posting useless sh*t and read the stuff that matters.

Good call.. But if you look this thread on whos insight/knowledgable posts are most popular? I'm not doing too bad esspecially since I've been known to troll on Federer threads in the Pro forum which is where this is posted:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=54262

I also get enough AIM messages from members personally asking me for tennis advise because the boards give them too much garbage they have to filter through.

If therse a misleading post I'm going to have my comments on it.

Thereallovebone
06-12-2005, 08:59 PM
You see, TwistServe - and Thereallovebone - I feel you are both destructive influences on a well-functioning tips board. I usually let these things pass, but somehow today, I feel enraged at your needless nitpicking. Don't you have the maturity to let go of little things, and look at the big picture?

Well, I should know how useless it is to make a point like this to folks with a destructive bent. I will stop posting useless sh*t and read the stuff that matters.


Yeah, my nitpicking which made Kana say. "Oops, I didn't mean to say keep the elbow close on the backswing. Thanks for pointing out my mistake."

You're an idiot. If I see something wrong, I'll post whatever I please.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 09:06 PM
Yeah, my nitpicking which made Kana say. "Oops, I didn't mean to say keep the elbow close on the backswing. Thanks for pointing out my mistake."

You're an idiot. If I see something wrong, I'll post whatever I please.

Kana hasbeen known to change her statement, not admit it, and twist words..

1.) Shoulder height is ideal strike zone for western grip
2.) Oh I mean chest to shoulder is ideal
3.) Oh I mean its all personal preference. I was never wrong. The shoulder is my ideal strike zone therefore I'm not wrong.

1.) Oh its essential to have the one ball rule in the armpitt
2.) Oh nevermind you only do that at first but then as you develop you do whats comfortble.

tennisplayer
06-12-2005, 09:07 PM
You unmitigated moron. Far be it from me to argue with you - the types that need to have the last word. Go ahead - keep on posting your excrement. I know what to ignore.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 09:08 PM
You unmitigated moron.

Such powerful words. How old are you, you never answered?

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 09:12 PM
I saw you bragging earlier that you taught at the Vic Braden Tennis Academy.
Here's what Vic has to say on the subject:

What I'm advocating in this book is a loop swing as opposed to straight back.
This is a controversial issue among teaching pros, YET I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT MOST OF THOSE WHO TEACH "STRAIGHT BACK" USE THE LOOP WHEN THEY GO OUT AND PLAY-as does vritually every single player in pro tennis, with the exception of Jimmy Connors and John McEnroe.

To visualize the loop swing,try to think of a little hairpin turn taken in two parts. First, bring the racket back at eye level and wait for the approaching ball. Then, in a continuous motion, drop the racket and your hitting hand 12 inches below the intended point of impact, and come forward and up through the ball, toward your target.

Those straight-back hitters who learn it right-by taking the racket back at waist level and then dropping it to knee level-are actually using a modified loop swing. FAR MORE OFTEN, HOWEVER,THOSE PEOPLE WHO GET THE RACKET LOW DO SO BY TAKING THE RACKET STRAIGHT DOWN ON A DIAGONAL LINE TO THE LOWEST POINT OF THE BACKSWING, WHICH OF COURSE COSTS THEM A POWER-PRODUCING LOOP.



Gee, I wonder why he canned your ***.

When are you going to stop twisting words? No one said to only have a straight takeback. We have said that the elbow passing the side of the body is a good thing.

But I brought up some critical evidence which you failed to address. What moves the hand faster?

The loop takeback is something I do advocate. This is very basic stuff!

However, I also will not hesitate to teach a straight takeback if a player is having a hard time timing the ball. Once they begin getting it, you add a little more loop or you add enough loop that they feel comfortable with. So why dont you knock it off.

No one canned anyone. you again are talking about something you have no clue about. Vic Braden is a good friend of mine and I continue to have opportunities to teach when he is in town. Please refrain from making up stuff to make yourself feel good and please keep studying for all of our sakes.

I live in Irvine California. I would love to challenge you to a forehand test. Why dont you put up or shut up.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 09:13 PM
Thank you for your personal insights and great knowledge of the game.

The strike zone for a Western grip usually encompasses around belly button area to slightly past the shoulder. The racquet path begins sharply upward and whips through the ball.

TwistServe - On your earlier post on popularity, somehow you are not in the lead at all. If it helps to console you, I voted for you. I'm sure you get many emails, mostly because you share and know all about the game and stroke intricacies. I originally had the idea that you simply screamed and repeated things without any useful knowledge to other people besides your personal opinion.

The range of people you can vote for in the poll includes general regulars to the section. You don't need to qualify or be good to be in it. Which must explain why anyone other than you made it on the list.

And thankfully I was wrong about the content of your posts. Your presence on this board alone has enlightened me to numerous things within myself and my game.

Looking forward to future insights,

Kana

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 09:19 PM
The strike zone for a Western grip usually encompasses around belly button area to slightly past the shoulder. The racquet path begins sharply upward and whips through the ball.


Finally I'm getting somewhere.. that's all I wanted to hear.. and you could have saved three threads full of debate with that one statement.

Thereallovebone
06-12-2005, 09:20 PM
Hey Kana, BB - give up on "Thereallovebone" - whatever that means. You see, some time ago, he was too late avoiding an overhead, and so he has a tennis ball wedged in his brain. He's never going to agree to playing with a ball wedged anywhere else, including the armpit! Don't waste good energy on a bad prospect!


Go ahead and make fun of my name if you want, but I can't help what my mother named me.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 09:23 PM
Thanks, I'm glad you were able to agree with me. That's all that matters.

I also thought that the strike zone didn't cover the knees, and that I stated chest was optimal several times. But that doesn't matter, does it?

I EVEN remembered a guy named TwistServe spreading it across the whole forum and MAKING those extra threads. But...it can't be. Not THAT TwistServe. Not THE TwistServe.

He even has SIX votes for the most knowledgeable/insightful posts! Luckily, Andy Hewitt, Aykhan, and several other established, educated veterans have almost just as many votes. All real students of the game.

May you lead this board and all people that want to learn to greatness.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 09:26 PM
May you lead this board and all people that want to learn to greatness.

I'm afraid I don't have the experience in tennis to start writing articles and making radical statements about Federer's game. I'm only here to occasionally provide tips and point out when a tip or statement is obviously wrong or misleading.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 09:31 PM
I salute your admirable position on this matter.

When reading your posts, it seems you ALWAYS, ALWAYS have the right idea. But it's hard for me to find out what's right when you never tell what's going on or give tips on how to improve it.

I guess I'm just looking in the wrong places, huh? I think I'll email you so I don't have to read the drivel of unintelligible posts and get right to the solution, like all these other people seem to be doing.

Thereallovebone
06-12-2005, 11:08 PM
No one canned anyone. you again are talking about something you have no clue about. Vic Braden is a good friend of mine and I continue to have opportunities to teach when he is in town. Please refrain from making up stuff to make yourself feel good and please keep studying for all of our sakes.

.

I'm studying your boss and good friend Vic's book right now. I'm on page 54 where he talks about the importance of keeping the palm down on the backswing and LEADING WITH THE ELBOW. It's great stuff. You should study it too. Maybe you could get your job back at the academy instead of
just working for him once in a blue moon on his occassional trip to Irvine.

raftermania
06-12-2005, 11:16 PM
Where do you get all this hate for Bungalo Bill from? I'm really sick of hearing you berate arguably the most respected person on this board.

Thereallovebone
06-12-2005, 11:20 PM
Where do you get all this hate for Bungalo Bill from? I'm really sick of hearing you berate arguably the most respected person on this board.

Read this post and you'll see how he started in with me. I don't have to take his S**T or anyone elses. I don't care how many posts he has.

Thereallovebone
06-12-2005, 11:22 PM
You can let people bully you if you want. That's your choice. I stand up for myself and if you don't like it SCREW YOU TOO!

Grimjack
06-13-2005, 05:42 AM
Thank you for your personal insights and great knowledge of the game.

The strike zone for a Western grip usually encompasses around belly button area to slightly past the shoulder. The racquet path begins sharply upward and whips through the ball.


You shouldn't let yourself be swayed on this point, because you've been right from the get go.

Yes, it's true that if you want to define some sort of "strike zone" for the western FH, then it's going to be a lot bigger than the "IDEAL strike zone" you were initially remarking on.

It's also true lots of good players with western FH's will have developed their own preferred places to strike the ball, which may or may not be the most biomechanically efficient.

But biomechanically, the western's ideal strike zone is a small area that will never range beyond the chest on the low side, or above the chin on the high side. The shape of the human body guarantees this. If this is where you hit your western FHs, with proper form, it's where your body will allow you to hit the most efficient, effective, powerful stroke. It's not the only way to hit one, and it's not even where most are hit...since especially for the tall among us, not all that many balls get up that high to begin with...but neither of those things changes the physical facts that decide where the ball can be most powerfully struck. This high ideal strike zone plays a role in why the SW is generally preferred by taller players.

Grimjack
06-13-2005, 05:52 AM
You can let people bully you if you want. That's your choice. I stand up for myself and if you don't like it SCREW YOU TOO!

Nobody's bullying you. You worded your initial post terribly, and instead of clarifying, have decided to take issue with the whole world in hopes of defending a ludicrous position.

Yes, Kana needed a small edit about keeping the elbow in on the forward swing. She made it, and did so without coming off like an ***.

Yes, BB could have been a tad more tactful in his initial response to your ludicrous claim that a raised elbow is a huge source of power, but he has made his point clear throughout without resorting to a smear campaign.

Your point -- if in fact there was one worth defending -- seems to have been that the elbow can't stay tucked in all the time, or you'll lose the gravity-generated power a larger backswing-loop can help generate. Okay. That point was eventually made. (Not by you, alas.) Why not just accept that as a job well done and move beyond this?

krnboijunsung
06-13-2005, 07:57 AM
My head hurts.

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 08:09 AM
I'm studying your boss and good friend Vic's book right now. I'm on page 54 where he talks about the importance of keeping the palm down on the backswing and LEADING WITH THE ELBOW.

LOL, what the hell have I been saying? LOL you sound like a very frustrated tennis player. I feel sorry for you.

Anytime you want to take me on, please let me know.

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 08:11 AM
My head hurts.

I know, mine does too, it was like I am feeding pearls to swine. LOL

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 08:25 AM
Nobody's bullying you. You worded your initial post terribly, and instead of clarifying, have decided to take issue with the whole world in hopes of defending a ludicrous position.

Yes, Kana needed a small edit about keeping the elbow in on the forward swing. She made it, and did so without coming off like an ***.

Yes, BB could have been a tad more tactful in his initial response to your ludicrous claim that a raised elbow is a huge source of power, but he has made his point clear throughout without resorting to a smear campaign.

Your point -- if in fact there was one worth defending -- seems to have been that the elbow can't stay tucked in all the time, or you'll lose the gravity-generated power a larger backswing-loop can help generate. Okay. That point was eventually made. (Not by you, alas.) Why not just accept that as a job well done and move beyond this?

Finally someone with some sense here! Perfect!

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 09:30 AM
Yes, Kana needed a small edit about keeping the elbow in on the forward swing. She made it, and did so without coming off like an ***.


Glad you found this small "edit"... I've been seeng many small edits throughout the posts .. first its "essential'.. .oh wait its not essential, do whats comfortable.. oh wait its actually only a teaching tool.. I was right all along, yes.

Apparently every time something is "repeated", it gets changed slightly.

Thereallovebone
06-13-2005, 12:09 PM
Again the challenge from me is I will play with my elbow close to my body as if a ball is under my arm pit. It may be a ball, or a ball in a half. .


I accept your challenge Bunagolw Bill!!!!!! $500.00 cash!!!

1st thing, I want an absolutely surefire way to make sure that your elbow
stays no more than a ball and a half away from your body. How can we do this?? Let me know how we can do this and YOU'RE ON!!!! I'm getting sick
of your putdowns.

phidias barrios
06-13-2005, 12:22 PM
Finally someone with some sense here! Perfect!

So what's happening with this $500 challenge? I live in SoCal and would love to watch it. But it sounds like "Love Bone" is starting to have doubts.

Phidias.

Thereallovebone
06-13-2005, 12:25 PM
So what's happening with this $500 challenge? I live in SoCal and would love to watch it. But it sounds like "Love Bone" is starting to have doubts.

Phidias.

I have NO DOUBTS. I have accepted his challenge on his terms.

phidias barrios
06-13-2005, 12:25 PM
I accept your challenge Bunagolw Bill!!!!!! $500.00 cash!!!

1st thing, I want an absolutely surefire way to make sure that your elbow
stays no more than a ball and a half away from your body. How can we do this?? Let me know how we can do this and YOU'RE ON!!!! I'm getting sick
of your putdowns.

What's up with all the restrictions? Just play. If you lose you lose.

Phidias.

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 01:14 PM
I accept your challenge Bunagolw Bill!!!!!! $500.00 cash!!!

1st thing, I want an absolutely surefire way to make sure that your elbow
stays no more than a ball and a half away from your body. How can we do this?? Let me know how we can do this and YOU'RE ON!!!! I'm getting sick
of your putdowns.

LOL, so you want to restrict my arm from taking it too you? Do you live in California?

Again you are missing the point. The ball under the arm pit is not something to play a match with, it is to help someone solve elbow roll and an extended arm problem at contact.

Are you that dense? Please tell me that you are not that stupid of a person.

I will hit my forehand. I will use the technical forehand that I know how to hit with, teach, and have played with for years.. It supports an elbow that PASSES close to the body. But it certainly doesnt mean I go out a dn measure every single ball like a nit wit. The movement of my arm cant be hindered as that is also part of a good technical stroke.

Read the links I provided and learn what that means. No restrictions chump, just hit the ball.

DO YOU LIVE IN CALIFORNIA? DO YOU LIVE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA. Also quit acting like a dork.

Thanatos
06-13-2005, 01:18 PM
I'll put my money on BB.

Jonnyf
06-13-2005, 01:21 PM
my money goes on BB

(go on gee's some of that $500 lol)

Thereallovebone
06-13-2005, 01:37 PM
Kana made a post that said it was important to keep your elbow close on the
backswing. I pointed out that more power could be generated by raising the elbow on the backswing rather than keeping it at her side. She then posted that she didn't mean to say to keep it close on the backswing and thanked me
for pointing out her mistake.

That should have been the whole substance of this post. All this other crap is a complete waste of time. I thought this was a forum where you could come and post your opinion without being insulted. I guess I was wrong.

Good luck Kana. My original post was meant only to improve your lesson, that's all. I hope it helped.

Thanks, I'm out of here for good.

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 01:40 PM
YES HE'S GONE................PAAAAARRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTYYYYY YYYYYY :D WHHOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, BB it looks like you've won :) Well done.........

Grimjack
06-13-2005, 01:41 PM
Kana made a post that said it was important to keep your elbow close on the
backswing. I pointed out that more power could be generated by raising the elbow on the backswing rather than keeping it at her side. She then posted that she didn't mean to say to keep it close on the backswing and thanked me
for pointing out her mistake.

That should have been the whole substance of this post. All this other crap is a complete waste of time.

I couldn't agree more, though I can't for the life of me understand why you don't see that you're the one cultivating all of it.

Hope you find happiness out there someplace, though. Peace.

Jonnyf
06-13-2005, 01:42 PM
Kana made a post that said it was important to keep your elbow close on the
backswing. I pointed out that more power could be generated by raising the elbow on the backswing rather than keeping it at her side. She then posted that she didn't mean to say to keep it close on the backswing and thanked me
for pointing out her mistake.

That should have been the whole substance of this post. All this other crap is a complete waste of time. I thought this was a forum where you could come and post your opinion without being insulted. I guess I was wrong.

Good luck Kana. My original post was meant only to improve your lesson, that's all. I hope it helped.


Thanks, I'm out of here for good.

AS long as you don't feel i insulted you then i shall say please don't leave but if you feel that i hate you then until you're not mad at me then c ya l8r

Jonnyf
06-13-2005, 01:43 PM
YES HE'S GONE................PAAAAARRRRRRRRRRTTTTTTTTTYYYYY YYYYYY :D WHHOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway, BB it looks like you've won :) Well done.........
i know you're jokin but that's shady for him

raftermania
06-13-2005, 01:45 PM
HEHE, BB's tennis equivalent to "YO BUDDY, LET'S SETTLE THIS OUTSIDE WITH OUR FISTS" worked!

Some people on the internet can inflate themselves with so much BS that they can't provide in real life.

Jonnyf
06-13-2005, 01:48 PM
ooh well if BB said " Lets settle this outside" to me i'd say "can we go back inside" and absolutely BOLT IT

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 01:50 PM
HEHE, BB's tennis equivalent to "YO BUDDY, LET'S SETTLE THIS OUTSIDE WITH OUT FISTS" worked!

Is that supposed to be "WITHOUT" or "WITH OUR"?.

Hahaha Jonny you (young cat), where you gonna go inside? best bet is Outside :)

Jonnyf
06-13-2005, 01:52 PM
i would BOLT AS FAR AWAY AS POSSIBLE

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 02:36 PM
I feel sorry for the guy. He was the type of player that refused to be taught anything. He probably had a lot of talent and at one time a desire to learn. Too bad.

ShooterMcMarco
06-13-2005, 07:36 PM
so bb, can the tennis ball under armpit method be used for a 1hbh too? or is that an entirely different animal

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 07:44 PM
so bb, can the tennis ball under armpit method be used for a 1hbh too? or is that an entirely different animal

The onehanded backhand usually does not have an issue with "gate" like swinging or elbow rolling. The problem usually with the onehanded backhand is leading the swing with the elbow and making contact with the racquet on an angle like this / The elbow is a bit ahead of the hand/racquet when contact is made and impacts the elbow area tremendously. In other words, it is a recipe for severe tennis elbow.

For the onehander many times people dont hit far enough away from the body and get jammed.

The twohanded is usually not a problem because the other arm helps bring in the elbows. The twohanded backhand is hit a bit closer to the body then the onehander.

Usually it is to correct a problem with the forehand.

pharper
08-18-2006, 06:28 AM
Sorry to bring this back from the dead, but all I can say is: "thereallovebone, what an idiot".

Janne
08-18-2006, 07:46 AM
Good thing you brought it back since Im a fairly new member and havent had the chance to read this amazing post until now! ;)

Nikae
11-18-2009, 02:55 PM
This post helped my forehand so much!

Keeping the elbow close to the rib cage is the best foehand tip I heard thus far. It improved my control a lot.

What are some pros that keep the elbow close to the body? I'm guesing Agassi, Gulbis, Monfils? Who else?

user92626
11-18-2009, 03:24 PM
Nadal keeps elbow close to body in his backswing. Other than that I see no other areas where a tuck-in elbow would help. I do not raise elbow like Roddick nor keep it in like Nadal.

Keeping the palm down and keeping everything comfortable and simple is key for me.

Bungalo Bill
11-18-2009, 03:35 PM
so bb, can the tennis ball under armpit method be used for a 1hbh too? or is that an entirely different animal

Not really. It is for the forehand side mainly for the reason of people swinging like a gate.

However, the elbow in and the tennis ball is just a drill to bring the elbow in not cement it there. That is what Love didn't understand. Of course, the elbow area needs room to move, extend, and basically work.

The tennis ball is to provide the player with a relative position and to get the feel of how the elbow works in the swing. It is not to cement it there or make it immovable or inflexible.

The elbow goes back, down, forward and moves in front of the body plan at contact.

user92626
11-18-2009, 03:45 PM
Not really. It is for the forehand side mainly for the reason of people swinging like a gate.



bb, what does "swinging like a gate" mean?

LeeD
11-18-2009, 04:22 PM
Gate...
Body motionless, swing from the arms as the pivot, no leg drive, no leg lift.

user92626
11-18-2009, 04:26 PM
Thanks, LeeD

wow I just realize I've been here 2x longer than you but you've made 2x more posts than I. Interesting. :)

LeeD
11-19-2009, 08:17 AM
:)
When I started surfing, I went out and bought a board and surfed easily 500 out of the next 600 days. And kept it up for 6 years.
When I started tennis, I played 6 days a week for the following 5 years.
When I started kitesurfing, I went to the beach 250 days the first spring, summer, and fall. Like EVERY day.
When I started windsurfing, I windsurfed over 120 days a year for TWENTY SIX years. Still.
Obsessive compulsive? I don't know. I have all the time in the world, a little money, no ambition, no goals. :shock::shock:
Oh, ONE goal. To bug you guys!

Nikae
11-20-2011, 01:05 AM
I am going to revive (once again) this old thread!

So 2 years later, I still think "keeping the elbow close to the body" is the best tip ever, at least for me!

Just take a look at Florent Serra forehand, its the best example by far!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szlco3TNjm4&hd=1
From 7:10 min mark, you can take a closer look.

Ferrero would be a good example also!

5263
11-20-2011, 01:35 PM
I am going to revive (once again) this old thread!

So 2 years later, I still think "keeping the elbow close to the body" is the best tip ever, at least for me!

Just take a look at Florent Serra forehand, its the best example by far!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szlco3TNjm4&hd=1
From 7:10 min mark, you can take a closer look.

Ferrero would be a good example also!

That may be the case, but

it may mainly be a symptom of another mistake; the most important thing for consistency- "being on balance" for your stroke.

When you are off balance, it is often from poor position on the ball and can lead to reaching and extending. When you reach and extend off balance, the elbow will often fly out. Trying to fix the elbow may or may not work, since it is mostly a symptom. It may work by forcing you to improve your position on the ball.
good post