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View Full Version : Why doesn't ATP keep winners/UE stats?


fedfan08
01-09-2011, 07:42 AM
I wish the ATP would keep stats on winners & unforced errors. ESPN, Eurosport, Sky, etc. show those stats, but the protennislive scoring app does not and neither do the stats on the ATP website. Why is that? Is it because they're subjective stats? Winners aren't, but unforced errors could be.

joeri888
01-09-2011, 07:50 AM
Because it's arbitrary and doesn't tell the story?

fedfan08
01-09-2011, 08:32 AM
Because it's arbitrary and doesn't tell the story?Please explain. In context with the rest of the match it sure does tell a story. If it doesn't tell the story then how come TV is always showing how many winners/UEs a player has on the FH side, BH side.

Bryan Swartz
01-09-2011, 09:49 AM
I agree they should be kept. Aces don't tell the story either, but the ATP keeps those. I think there are lots of stats that should be kept -- the ones that are kept are useful, but many others would equally be so.

Ocean Drive
01-09-2011, 10:55 AM
Because it's arbitrary and doesn't tell the story?

http://img.kyon.pl/static/img/remiq.net_7194.jpg

fedfan08
01-09-2011, 12:03 PM
I agree they should be kept. Aces don't tell the story either, but the ATP keeps those. I think there are lots of stats that should be kept -- the ones that are kept are useful, but many others would equally be so.Who actually counts the winners/UEs at matches? Is it ATP staff or staff hired by the tournaments? I'm assuming whoever it is they go through some formal training? Of course winners are cut and dry but UEs are not. For instance against guys like Nadal or Murray you could aruge some of the UEs are actually forced errors but they probably don't get called that way.

Bobby Jr
01-09-2011, 12:46 PM
I agree. The missing winners and unforced error stats on the ATP site has hindered heaps of debates here. I've often wondered why they don't have them and forehand/backhand winners/errors also. Would be useful info sometimes.

kOaMaster
01-09-2011, 01:21 PM
there are huge differences from tournament to tournament. an unforced error - what is that exactly. when is a point won by an effort and when is it an unforced error? totally invented and made up statistics.

one could argue that winners are clearly defined by the fact that it is a point where the opponent didnt touch the ball...so the atp could include this one.

Bryan Swartz
01-09-2011, 01:28 PM
Assists in basketball are an example of a similar statistic(to UE), yet they've been kept for decades.

As far as them being 'arbitrary' and 'made-up' ... that's true of any statistic, isn't it? Somebody somewhere had to come up with any stat and define it, why it is thought to be useful, etc.

kOaMaster
01-09-2011, 01:38 PM
ehm, no, this is not the same?
an ace is an ace, a breakpoint is a breakpoint. clean definition for each term & statistic. there is no question about that.
an unforced error on the other hand is subjectiv.

Bryan Swartz
01-09-2011, 01:43 PM
Hence my assists example.

The clean definition does not change the fact that they were still 'invented and made up' at some point, which was one of your arguments.

HunterST
01-09-2011, 01:48 PM
Hence my assists example.

The clean definition does not change the fact that they were still 'invented and made up' at some point, which was one of your arguments.

I agree it is subjective. Each point is so different there could never be one definition or rule that could determine if an error was forced of unforced.

However, that's really no reason not to keep the statistic.

Bobby Jr
01-09-2011, 01:51 PM
However, that's really no reason not to keep the statistic.
Agreed. Considering winners and unforced errors are probably the most indicative statistics for showing overall form you'd think they'd have them.

kOaMaster
01-09-2011, 01:54 PM
I agree it is subjective. Each point is so different there could never be one definition or rule that could determine if an error was forced of unforced.

However, that's really no reason not to keep the statistic.

yeah alright, but my problem with this is: how can you make a statistic of something not measurable? that has even less significance than normal statistics...

HunterST
01-09-2011, 02:03 PM
yeah alright, but my problem with this is: how can you make a statistic of something not measurable? that has even less significance than normal statistics...

I don't think the fact that people have to use their best judgement renders the "stat" useless. It would in a scientific study, but this is just to give fans an idea of how the points were won.

Also, aren't errors in baseball somewhat subjective?

Maybe they could simply have Winners and errors if they wanted a more concrete statistic? That would mean any time the player got their racquet on the ball and it didn't go back in play it would be an error. It wouldn't be perfect, but I'd rather see that than alot of the stats they list.

single_handed_champion
01-09-2011, 04:10 PM
There is nobody to do it for them. I suppose they use volunteers for the job and the stats on the TV channels are compiled by their own crew.