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View Full Version : Keeping the elbow close to the body a myth?


ktncnttl
06-12-2005, 12:22 PM
I have read on various occasions that you should keep your elow close to the body when you are hitting a forehand. However I have notices than most pros actually open up their elbows for their forehands. The most noticeable are Agassi and Gonzales. So whom should I believe, the pros or the articles?

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 12:50 PM
Neither. Experiment for yourself and see what works. I think lots of stuff they teach in tennis is a myth and you must try it for yourself. Big examples are backscrach motion and snapping the wrist.

Lots of times kids are taught a certain way to play and when they grow up they teach it that way too. The ball in the armpit is a good way to help a student learn how to hit a forehand but I think that is a myth also. Maybe its something you do in practice but its too hard to hit a fluid forehand with a ball in your armpit if you're going for the real thing.. maybe 1-3 balls is a good rule.. So experiment and see what works for YOU!

Thing is, many myths in tennis have some truths.. You want to drop your racquet head during a serve (backscratch motion), you want to hit down on the ball (wrist snap), and you want to keep elbow close to body (ball in armpit rul)

ktncnttl
06-12-2005, 01:00 PM
"you want to keep elbow close to body (ball in armpit rul)"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But look at roddick, his elbow is raised above his shoulder...............

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 01:02 PM
It's not a myth at ALL.

It's essential. The pros do it. In the "Forehand Consistency" thread, there's like a 30 post discussion on it, lol.

The pros keep the elbow out for the backswing that's fine, Then when their racquets taken back, they pull it in and swing with the elbow in until after contact.

Hardly a myth.

ktncnttl
06-12-2005, 01:09 PM
"The pros keep the elbow out for the backswing that's fine, Then when their racquets taken back, they pull it in and swing with the elbow in until after contact.

Hardly a myth."

Well, at least it is a half myth.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 01:11 PM
Half myth? What was mentioned in the thread, including the drill of tucking a ball under the armpit, is intended for the forward swing only.

I don't know of any people who do it on the actual backswing much, so I guess it can't really be a half-myth either. :P

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 01:31 PM
Half myth? What was mentioned in the thread, including the drill of tucking a ball under the armpit, is intended for the forward swing only.


Tell me how federer keeps the ONE ball in his armpit during contact here.. you have to admit, its a half myth.. the drill is good for practice but not really practical in a match.

http://www.rogerfedererexpress.homestead.com/files/rogerbeatsgrosjean7.jpeg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/TwistServe/federer_eblow.jpg

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 01:32 PM
It's essential. The pros do it. In the "Forehand Consistency" thread, there's like a 30 post discussion on it, lol.

The pros keep the elbow out for the backswing that's fine, Then when their racquets taken back, they pull it in and swing with the elbow in until after contact.

Hardly a myth.

Not quite..

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/TwistServe/federer_eblow.jpg

http://www.rogerfedererexpress.homestead.com/files/rogerbeatsgrosjean7.jpeg

Marius_Hancu
06-12-2005, 01:41 PM
Tell me how federer keeps the ONE ball in his armpit during contact here.. you have to admit, its a half myth.. the drill is good for practice but not really practical in a match.

http://www.rogerfedererexpress.homestead.com/files/rogerbeatsgrosjean7.jpeg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/TwistServe/federer_eblow.jpg

Some of you might have a subscription at:
http://www.tennisplayer.net

Then you should read this article

Roger Federer and the Evolution of
the Modern Forehand
By John Yandell

where Mr. Yandell confirms that Federer hits many times with a arm relatively straight (at the elbow), with an S-W grip, as in the pics here, but that he is also using a more-pronounced "double-bend" FH (arm bent at elbow and wrist). As a matter of fact, he mentions here that Fed might have 3 or so varieties of FH.

Also you could see there that his elbow is farther from the body than for the other players.

I feel that with the above he puts less strain on his elbow tendons than others.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 03:17 PM
TwistServe, it's generally been gone over. Thanks for the pictures and such though.

Eastern grips have it slightly farther away. Federer is a mild semiwestern, so it's sort of close.

The ball tucked under develops the feel, and the players (even those with an Eastern grip) generally keep it relatively in. Federer is not a typical player, and people should not always try to emulate him. What works for him does not work for all others.

It's practical in a match for almost all players.

Marius, thanks for the information as well.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 03:38 PM
TwistServe, it's generally been gone over. Thanks for the pictures and such though.


Once again the young child in you makes statements without any proof or backing. I've clearly showed evidence that pros are not doing what you said. Its just just federer. Tim Henman, Gasquet, among other pros will not have 1 ball in the armpit. It has not generally been gone over. There has been much dispute over your forehand consistency.. mainly from other people that have been playing years longer than you. The only people that have accepted your findings are the people just learning how to play and other kids.

The ball in the armpit is a nice rule guideline but trying playing with one in your armpit lol. Most pros have a variety of strokes and the 1 ball in the armpit is not essential. Moreover, its essential to keep the elbow bent and close to the body but still have a fluid motion. Sometimes this means 2 balls in the armpit, sometimes this means 3 balls.

I can post many pictures of many pros.. not just federer.. that shows they cannot have 1 ball in their armpitt.. i can also show u pictures of normal 5.5 players and NCAA players too.. And you cannot discredit my pictures by saying oh they are pros so you cant copy them.. you need to play the right way because pros play the elite way... Simply stating, all your talk is talk and you have not showed one ounce of proof that the 1 ball rule is ESSENTIAL as you state.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 03:46 PM
Makes statements without proof? I had a 30 post war going on in the forehand consistency thread. Well, actually, I was constantly repeating things to thereallovebone, who was confused. But if you look in there, all the information, plus a series of posts by BB, describes everything.

I have also gone over that you're NOT supposed to play with a ball in your armpit. Doing it develops the feel for the elbow in closer, or simply allows players to minimize excess movement in the elbow, and control it. That's a large factor of inconsistency, and is important for ALL players to be able to do.

Post the pictures. Most pros start with the elbow out, and pull it in for the swing. There are always exceptions, it's a personal preference. But being able to control it is a necessity. The ball helps stabilize that.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 03:48 PM
Makes statements without proof? I had a 30 post war going on in the forehand consistency thread.

A 30 post war is not proof that the one ball under the armpit is "Essential" and that all pros are doing it.

It's essential. The pros do it.

You also said that one shouldn't emulate the pros.. So why are u hypercritcal about one thing and then say it for another. Don't copy the pros but do copy the pros.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 03:59 PM
Respond to the rest of the post as well.

I posted about the pros because it's the only thing people seem to want to do. You have posted pictures of pros as well.

When I say you shouldn't emulate the pros, it means you should develop what's comfortable for you, and play with it accordingly. Hypocritical? Find what's comfortable for you. However, there are always optimum technical parts of every stroke.

If it helps you to understand, the pros are all able to control their elbow efficiently. This can be developed with the ball drill, and is essential for players. Keeping the elbow in makes this easiest. However, at this point, after the player has been able to efficiently control the elbow and arm, they should be able to develop their stroke accordingly to personal preference.


edit:: As for the 30 post war, I simply meant most of the information was already in there. Please read BB's posts, they should provide some additional insights.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 05:09 PM
Another thing to prove the benefits of keeping the elbow in:

Added control, especially with the returns and hitting on the rise (where timing and control is most important). You'll see Agassi, Guga, and many people with a good return keeping the elbow in more than usual on the swings.

I believe, off the top of my mind, that Federer keeps is elbow at the usual location for him a little further away. But he manages to do this because he has erased the elbow's free and excess movement, and can control it.


edit:: Upon searching for additional information about the subject, I found out about another point. Keeping the elbows in allows more of the power to be generated from the body (legs, torso, large muscles). When it's further away, these muscles have less of an impact on the ball and you arm it more (obviously) which sacrifices more control. Using the large muscles allows you to retain power without eliminating consistency.

It might be a reason Federer has so many forehand mishits.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 05:42 PM
It might be a reason Federer has so many forehand mishits.

I think you should tell federer your analysis and see if he agrees LoL

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 05:45 PM
It's essential. The pros do it. In the "Forehand Consistency" thread

When I say you shouldn't emulate the pros, it means you should develop what's comfortable for you, and play with it accordingly..

These two statements conflict with each other. The first statement you say its essential for the elbow to be in. The second statement you say do what is comfortble to you implying it is not essential Lol.. Nice one but you've been known to change your advise quite frequently after realizing you made a goofup/mistake.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 05:46 PM
His forehand is devastating with lots of variety added in, but almost all of his errors come from his forehand.

Any idea where I can tell him? :P LOL.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 05:49 PM
His forehand is devastating with lots of variety added in, but almost all of his errors come from his forehand.

Any idea where I can tell him? :P LOL.

His error does not come from his form. His error comes from going for the lines, going for too much, and being offensive when he shouldn't be. You're getting ridicously funny when you claim that federer's form is causing errors and he's been playing Tennis for his lifetime, you've been playing since 2003.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 05:58 PM
When it's further away, you arm it more. That's a fact. When you arm it more, it's generally more inconsistent. That's a fact. That part was pretty much not in a serious tone, that's a fact, too. :P

On another note, going for the lines and going for too much is different from a mishit. Doing those would cause the balls to be slightly out and whatever. Federer has raw mishits.

As for the other part, I said that, too I believe. There are key parts of professional strokes that would benefit everyone's game. However, once they've worked out those key parts, a large part is their personal style and preference. Most pros share large stroke commonalities and are effective. But somehow, their strokes look much different than each other. That's their style, their preference.

Mahboob Khan
06-12-2005, 06:06 PM
Obviously if the arm is straight leading to contact (Federer), the elbow will be away from the body.

Let's briefly examine the forehand swing:

-- The upper part of the backswing loop

-- The racket dropping from the upper loop

-- Lower part of the loop (prep to forward swing)

-- The forward swing leading to contact

-- The contact point

-- The follow-through.

OK, you guessed it. With the bend arm, it's in the forward swing just before-during contact that the elbow bone is closer to the right side of your rib-cage. After contact and in the follow-through the elbow will be finishing away from the body and high. Thus, the elbow is high in the backswing (upper part of loop), and high in the follow-through!

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 06:26 PM
It's essential. The pros do it. In the "Forehand Consistency" thread



When I say you shouldn't emulate the pros, it means you should develop what's comfortable for you, and play with it accordingly..



These two statements conflict with each other. The first statement you say its essential for the elbow to be in. The second statement you say do what is comfortble to you implying it is not essential Lol.. Nice one but you've been known to change your advise quite frequently after realizing you made a goofup/mistake.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 06:27 PM
Obviously if the arm is straight leading to contact (Federer), the elbow will be away from the body.

Let's briefly examine the forehand swing:

-- The upper part of the backswing loop

-- The racket dropping from the upper loop

-- Lower part of the loop (prep to forward swing)

-- The forward swing leading to contact

-- The contact point

-- The follow-through.

OK, you guessed it. With the bend arm, it's in the forward swing just before-during contact that the elbow bone is closer to the right side of your rib-cage. After contact and in the follow-through the elbow will be finishing away from the body and high. Thus, the elbow is high in the backswing (upper part of loop), and high in the follow-through!

Good analysis.. So as I suspected the armpit can only hold a ball at contact if that's even possible. Probably 1-2 balls more like it.. Before and after contact your body is fluid and will probably not hold any balls in the armpit. Thus the myth is a half myth.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 06:48 PM
These two statements conflict with each other. The first statement you say its essential for the elbow to be in. The second statement you say do what is comfortble to you implying it is not essential Lol.. Nice one but you've been known to change your advise quite frequently after realizing you made a goofup/mistake.

How many times have I answered this question?

The ball drill is to help people get a feel for controlling the elbow and eliminating free movement. The reasons for improving consistency are obvious and you already know them.

I've answered that question in multiple posts already.

They build the feel for it, they learn the benefits of keeping it in. That's what you're aiming for.

If they're able to use this and can control the elbow easily when it's further out, that's fine.

You've been consistently yelling about that seeming contradiction. They need to learn to get the feel for eliminating the excess movement. Then, if they can do it, and it's comfortable, they try moving it out.

I'VE SAID IT OVER. AND OVER. AND OVER.

Mahboob's dissection is great. You're agreeing with it. However, that's exactly what I've been saying in post the whole time. During the swing and around contact the elbow moves in. Many pros start with it out, and move it in for the contact. It moves in closer to the right side of your body, as I've said, and moves out again during the followthrough.

He said that exact same thing, and you agreed with it. I said the same thing before.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 07:06 PM
Here we go. I took a friend who has an account on tennisplayer.net, which you seem to agree with.

The exact quote he found:

Your hitting arm stays in close to the body so the power of the stroke is generated from the rotation of the shoulders and from the legs. Despite their very different swing styles, Agassi, Roddick, Federer and Sampras all use the body for power, not the arm.

There is no doubt the hitting arm stays in by use of bending and keeping the elbow in, right?

On another note, Federer is not a good example period, because the form and variations on his forehand are so much different from everyone elses. Not just "flattening it out" or if "he wants to add topspin" as you thought when someone said it inside the "FH Consistency" thread, he has all kinds of different finishes, setups, and general strokes for the same type of ball.

There are plenty of pros. Agassi, Ferrero, almost all of them. Many have large backswings, and the elbow might be further away at the start. But in almost every single one of them, when they begin the swing, the elbow comes in and around before extending again.

A quote from myself. Did I not already say here, a while ago, that the elbow moves in and around for contact? You agree with that, you've said it yourself.



Need I not mention BB, who you completely agree with in other threads? Do I need to quote him, too?



edit:: Wait, I have discovered yet another point in proving you wrong.

You don't want the elbow near the body right? You believe it should be at LEAST two balls away, right? Would you mind telling people how to try keeping their elbow put and actually swing at the ball with two balls in their armpit?

It's a TEACHING mechanism. The drill, as I've stated countless times and am repeating myself again, let's the player get the feel for stabilizing the bent elbow. Correct? That's not disputable.

What it is is pretty much a quick, easy drill anybody can do while trying to make their forehand more consistent. When the elbow is still out on the pros you are mentioning, their elbow is stabilized and bent, right? No excess movement during the swing? That's what the tucked-in ball helps you do.

The people who are trying to fix their swing HAVE all that excess movement. They have their elbow and arm out and flopping around during the swing.

That's what I'm trying to fix. That's what I've been saying everywhere this whole entire time. They do the drill, they get the feel for it. They go into matches with a stabilized, bent elbow that's fixed within two balls of the body, and is closest at contact.

This entire time, you've simply been screaming and giving pictures. You have no idea what actually happens during the swing.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 07:33 PM
Here we go. I took a friend who has an account on tennisplayer.net, which you seem to agree with.

The exact quote he found:



There is no doubt the hitting arm stays in by use of bending and keeping the elbow in, right?

On another note, Federer is not a good example period, because the form and variations on his forehand are so much different from everyone elses. Not just "flattening it out" or if "he wants to add topspin" as you thought when someone said it inside the "FH Consistency" thread, he has all kinds of different finishes, setups, and general strokes for the same type of ball.



A quote from myself. Did I not already say here, a while ago, that the elbow moves in and around for contact? You agree with that, you've said it yourself.



Need I not mention BB, who you completely agree with in other threads? Do I need to quote him, too?



edit:: Wait, I have discovered yet another point in proving you wrong.

You don't want the elbow near the body right? You believe it should be at LEAST two balls away, right? Would you mind telling people how to try keeping their elbow put and actually swing at the ball with two balls in their armpit?

It's a TEACHING mechanism. The drill, as I've stated countless times and am repeating myself again, let's the player get the feel for stabilizing the bent elbow. Correct? That's not disputable.

What it is is pretty much a quick, easy drill anybody can do while trying to make their forehand more consistent. When the elbow is still out on the pros you are mentioning, their elbow is stabilized and bent, right? No excess movement during the swing? That's what the tucked-in ball helps you do.

The people who are trying to fix their swing HAVE all that excess movement. They have their elbow and arm out and flopping around during the swing.

That's what I'm trying to fix. That's what I've been saying everywhere this whole entire time. They do the drill, they get the feel for it. They go into matches with a stabilized, bent elbow that's fixed within two balls of the body, and is closest at contact.

This entire time, you've simply been screaming and giving pictures. You have no idea what actually happens during the swing.

Blah blah too much reading. It's like I'm grading a 10th grade essay and I'd have to give it a C+ but the girl refuses that shes wrong lol

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 07:37 PM
I also have to notice that you never actually read the posts, you never respond to the actual content, and you refuse to give any actual knowledge of the swing itself.

Too long? Would you prefer Dr. Seuss style? I can make it rhyme, and we can ride ponies across the ocean to Wimbledon and ask some other people there if you want.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 07:49 PM
His forehand is devastating with lots of variety added in, but almost all of his errors come from his forehand.



Any idea where I can tell him? :P LOL.



His error does not come from his form. His error comes from going for the lines, going for too much, and being offensive when he shouldn't be. You're getting ridicously funny when you claim that federer's form is causing errors and he's been playing Tennis for his lifetime, you've been playing since 2003.

Federer is doing calculus and you're doing addition. Sorry.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 07:55 PM
I also notice how you immediately change the subject, and you're STILL wrong. Plus, you're using pretty much the exact some post as you did before.

His errors come from raw mishits. If he was simply not playing the percentages and going for too much, his errors would look a lot different.

Would you like me to define a mishit?

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 07:56 PM
His forehand is devastating with lots of variety added in, but almost all of his errors come from his forehand.







Any idea where I can tell him? :P LOL.







His error does not come from his form. His error comes from going for the lines, going for too much, and being offensive when he shouldn't be. You're getting ridicously funny when you claim that federer's form is causing errors and he's been playing Tennis for his lifetime, you've been playing since 2003.



Federer is doing calculus and you're doing addition. Sorry.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 08:02 PM
I also notice how you immediately change the subject, and you're STILL wrong. Plus, you're using pretty much the exact some post as you did before.

His errors come from raw mishits. If he was simply not playing the percentages and going for too much, his errors would look a lot different.

Would you like me to define a mishit?

LoL i dont even know what you're trying to say. My forehand is my biggest weapon and easily a male 5.0 forehand. I just post in these threads because I like seeing how a person of great tennis experience and wisdom twist words, make inconsistent statements, change things they say, and make comments about how to correct federer's strokes lol.. Although its entertainment I think this thread is getting to the point of "no you can, yes i can, no you can, yes i can" which isn't fun anymore. Until the next thread :)

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 08:06 PM
Wow. You're posting the exact same thing repeatedly, which isn't even really on topic.

Would you like me to grade your writing as well? F for sentence variety and frequent mechanical errors in the majority of your posts.

I'm not going to post in this thread anymore, it's completely unnecessary. On the same thought, I'll probably just skip out on the Tips/Instruction subforum altogether. I can't have people like you disproving me everywhere with your wide realm of knowledge, right?

Absolutely not. Because TwistServe knows EXACTLY how to explain things and help people.

I'll post the articles or whatever when I get to them. That's about it. Of course, TwistServe, with his deep knowledge of the game, will repeat himself and disprove me once again when I'm stating the well-known facts repeatedly.

Thank you for your time in responding to this thread.


Final edit:: Twist words? I have been simply quoting you and repeating myself at least ten times. Inconsistent statements? I repeat myself and explain it to you at least five after you post about the inconsistency

It'd be fun in another thread, but that's probably not going to happen.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 08:14 PM
Final edit:: Twist words? I have been simply quoting you and repeating myself at least ten times. Inconsistent statements? I repeat myself and explain it to you at least five after you post about the inconsistency


Just three off the top of my head :)

1.) First you said the one ball rule was essential. A few posts later you said do whatever feels comfortble for the player implying the rule is not essential.

2.) You said the pros are doing the one ball rule implying everyone should do it.. A few posts later, you said just because the pros are doing it doesn't mean you should be doing it...

3.) You said the shoulder is the ideal strike zone for a western grip. A few posts later you said the chest to shoulder was the ideal strike zone. A few posts after that you said it was personal preference..

First thing about writing a paper or article: Don't get caught changing your introduction or thesis! Make a statement and than back it up. Don't change that statement a few posts later.. or just do the admirable thing and admit you're wrong, state why you were wrong and so be it.

tennisplayer
06-12-2005, 08:18 PM
TwistServe - shut up. Kana's posts make very interesting reading, unlike yours. Please don't chase her away from these boards. Thank you.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 08:21 PM
TwistServe - shut up. Kana's posts make very interesting reading, unlike yours. Please don't chase her away from these boards. Thank you.

Sorry but I'm going to have to critique what I see is misleading. If she didn't make inconsistent statements I wouldn't have anything to write about. Or if she didn't say federer's form was incorrect and that she knows why he is "inconsistent".. there would be nothing to say..

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 09:18 PM
Sorry but I'm going to have to critique what I see is misleading. If she didn't make inconsistent statements I wouldn't have anything to write about. Or if she didn't say federer's form was incorrect and that she knows why he is "inconsistent".. there would be nothing to say..

Federers form is not incorrect. It is definetely within the parameters of good technique and what is comfortable to him. If you break down the stroke, the fundamentals are there.

Rickson
06-12-2005, 09:20 PM
Tell me how federer keeps the ONE ball in his armpit during contact here.. you have to admit, its a half myth.. the drill is good for practice but not really practical in a match.

http://www.rogerfedererexpress.homestead.com/files/rogerbeatsgrosjean7.jpeg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b323/TwistServe/federer_eblow.jpg
I definitely noticed that Federer's elbow doesn't touch his body on his forehands, but TS, you're using Federer to prove your point? What's the world coming to when TwistServe uses Roger Federer as an example?

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 09:21 PM
I definitely noticed that Federer's elbow doesn't touch his body on his forehands, but TS, you're using Federer to prove your point? What's the world coming to when TwistServe uses Roger Federer as an example?

I know.. I'm a federer troll on one board, and apparently a federer fan on the tips board :)

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 09:27 PM
Federers form is not incorrect. It is definetely within the parameters of good technique and what is comfortable to him. If you break down the stroke, the fundamentals are there.

Bumping this up for those that thought Federer's form causes inconsistentcy and mishits.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 09:28 PM
It's a TEACHING mechanism. The drill, as I've stated countless times and am repeating myself again, let's the player get the feel for stabilizing the bent elbow. Correct? That's not disputable.

What it is is pretty much a quick, easy drill anybody can do while trying to make their forehand more consistent. When the elbow is still out on the pros you are mentioning, their elbow is stabilized and bent, right? No excess movement during the swing? That's what the tucked-in ball helps you do.

The people who are trying to fix their swing HAVE all that excess movement. They have their elbow and arm out and flopping around during the swing.

That's what I'm trying to fix. That's what I've been saying everywhere this whole entire time. They do the drill, they get the feel for it. They go into matches with a stabilized, bent elbow that's fixed within two balls of the body, and is closest at contact.



When looking back, this "Kana" person seems to cleared everything up here. I'd follow that advice.

TwistServe, perhaps you could spread your expertise to her and help clear it up?

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 09:32 PM
When looking back, this "Kana" person seems to cleared everything up here. I'd follow that advice.

TwistServe, perhaps you could spread your expertise to her and help clear it up?

Apparently this person made the statement after she had claimed the one ball in armpit was "essential" and that "pros" do it.. But later she changed the statement and said use whats comfortble.. Now theres a quote about the armpitt trick is a teaching mechanim? Sounds a little inconsistent and I would suggest this "Kana" person sharpen up her writting skills so as not to be inconsistent or quite changing what shes saying.. or just admit when she made a mistake.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 09:36 PM
Federers form is not incorrect. It is definetely within the parameters of good technique and what is comfortable to him. If you break down the stroke, the fundamentals are there.



Bumping this yet again because I think it got missed from more garbage posts...Federer's form causes inconsistentcy and mishits.

Rickson
06-12-2005, 09:36 PM
My elbow is definitely bent at contact, but I don't think a tennis ball would be fitting in my armpits on some of my forehands. On some they would and on some they wouldn't, but one thing I'll agree with is that a bent arm is much better than a straight arm for forehands and I know that Federer keeps a slight bend in his elbow, even on some of his eastern forehands.

Kana Himezaki
06-12-2005, 09:38 PM
The pros don't seem to keep it in the armpit. They develop the feel for keeping the elbow fixed and bent, just as the "Kana" person said. After they develop this feel, they can experiment upon what is comfortable with the addition of a fixed elbow.

But you obviously comprehend it MUCH better than I do. She EVEN seems to be stating it's a teaching tool and drill several times, even in that "FH Consistency" thread. But gosh, my 20/20 vision must have failed me.

She better start working on the writing skills. Forget that 760 SAT score...in the 7th grade. Forget those ERB tests, too. She's really bad if she repeats herself over and over and still manages to change the facts constantly.

Thank god you were there.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 09:40 PM
My elbow is definitely bent at contact, but I don't think a tennis ball would be fitting in my armpits on some of my forehands. On some they would and on some they wouldn't, but one thing I'll agree with is that a bent arm is much better than a straight arm for forehands and I know that Federer keeps a slight bend in his elbow, even on some of his eastern forehands.

Rickson, my elbow is bent too.. Very bent.. I dont think we're aruging about that.. To recap whats been said:

Kana:
1.) It's essential for one ball to be in the armbit
2.) Pros do it
3.) Actualyl one ball rule doesnt count.. do whats comfortable
4.) Federer has bad form therefore he is inconsistent
5.) One ball rule is only a teaching mechanism

TS:
1.) blah blah blah

BB:
1.) Federer has nice form and fundamentals

Bungalo Bill
06-12-2005, 09:42 PM
Apparently this person made the statement after she had claimed the one ball in armpit was "essential" and that "pros" do it.. But later she changed the statement and said use whats comfortble.. Now theres a quote about the armpitt trick is a teaching mechanim? Sounds a little inconsistent and I would suggest this "Kana" person sharpen up her writting skills so as not to be inconsistent or quite changing what shes saying.. or just admit when she made a mistake.

Maybe you are right and with time I believe that Kana's efforts to learn the game, teach the game, and help others will pay off for her. The biggest thing she needs to gaurd against is not to lose heart. I am for her, and I think it is great to see such enthusiasm from a youngster for the sport of tennis.

One final explanation about the ball under the arm pit.

It doesnt happen in real play. It is not suppose to happen in real play. The arm moves freely as the other parts of your body should move.

No one clamps your wrist down and says now hit only this way.

When a player lifts his arm up and has somewhat of an extension and swings in a gate like fashion - the ball under the arm pit helps bring the elbow down and the player is able to leverage off his body, learn to swing from the shoulder and chest and put his weight into the ball instead of just his arm. You have heard of "arming the ball" before? This is what it helps reduce.

When you feed slow balls to a player with a tennis ball in their arm pits, they learn to rotate into the ball and make contact with their elbow DOWN.

Once they get the hang of this and feel comfortable, the ball is taken out and the arm swings freely. Depending on body position to the ball, the arm will extend some or very little and the person will rely on other parts of their body to contribute to power while keeping the elbow in a good technical position to hit through the ball.

That's it guys! I am done explaining this. It is so simple and so obvious this is happening in pros strokes. Quit measuring the ball under any players swing. That is not the purpose of the exercise. It is to solve an extended arm at the elbow and bring it in more.

Rickson
06-12-2005, 09:43 PM
Kana, I'm not siding against you or with TS. TS is my boy and all, but I believe you're both right to a degree but not completely. Elbow in can be a good thing, but not absolutely essential, and completely straight armed forehands are damn ugly and I wouldn't use them.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 09:43 PM
She better start working on the writing skills. Forget that 760 SAT score...in the 7th grade.

Guess you want to get into personal growth and status?

Wow 760 SAT score in 7th grade.. This Kana girl is going to go to harvard..

As for TwistServe, apparently he graduated from a top 20 university (which he wont name) and is making a six figure salary. That's probably why he has the most expensive ball machines, 9 racquets, a stringer, among other things.

takeuchi
06-12-2005, 09:45 PM
lol are you both on here 24/7? i've never seen so many back and forth posts in multiple threads.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 09:46 PM
Maybe you are right and with time I believe that Kana's efforts to learn the game, teach the game, and help others will pay off for her. The biggest thing she needs to gaurd against is not to lose heart. I am for her, and I think it is great to see such enthusiasm from a youngster for the sport of tennis.



HOLY JESUS.. KANA ARE YOU LISTENING? Okay I'm not going to rub it in.. You're young and your efforts are good, you have heart I'll give you that.. and when you refuse to say your wrong it becomes annoying and you show your immaturity. I've been wrong and I've admitted to it .. you grow from it and show you're not just some 15 yr old teaching a game she just learned a few years ago. but when you're wrong admit to it..

Rickson
06-12-2005, 09:46 PM
You 2 characters crack me up! You 2 will never agree on anything.

TheGreatBernie
06-12-2005, 10:00 PM
Hi all,

The pros are exactly that -- professionals. They've mastered the fundamentals so they can do whatever they like and still rip DTL winners. I'm sure if Federer played me he could play with his left hand and still hit clean winners... well probably not, but you get the point.

TwistServe
06-12-2005, 10:07 PM
Its quiet all of a sudden...

Please refer to post #50... I guess sometimes it's fun to be a child and sometimes it's fun to be right; I cant resist.

tennisplayer
06-12-2005, 10:12 PM
Yeah, I agree too... if you keep losing all those matches, you got to at least win one on this board.

mucat
06-12-2005, 10:23 PM
I use a eastern forehand and I never think about keeping my elbow close to the body. With the balls bounces as high as average NBA players nowaday, it is impossible to keep the elbow close to the body. It is not just pro having different stokes for different situation, I do too, and I am a lowly 3.5-4.0 player, I bet some others in here too. I can have a varities of swing, side-to-side, low-to-high, back-to-front, and some others in combination of those. Sometimes I think my strokes are not as mechanical as I would like, but they are pretty consistent, so I don't worry about it much now.

TheGreatBernie
06-12-2005, 10:47 PM
Hi mucat,

I hit my two-handed backhand with my elbows in just because I saw Marat Safin do it. I hit my semi-western forehand with a bent elbow but the elbow isn't that close to my body. I agree when you say:

I can have a varities of swing, side-to-side, low-to-high, back-to-front, and some others in combination of those. Sometimes I think my strokes are not as mechanical as I would like, but they are pretty consistent, so I don't worry about it much now.

I play the best when I don't think about things too much.

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 07:06 AM
Maybe you are right and with time I believe that Kana's efforts to learn the game, teach the game, and help others will pay off for her. The biggest thing she needs to gaurd against is not to lose heart. I am for her, and I think it is great to see such enthusiasm from a youngster for the sport of tennis.

One final explanation about the ball under the arm pit.

It doesnt happen in real play. It is not suppose to happen in real play. The arm moves freely as the other parts of your body should move.

No one clamps your wrist down and says now hit only this way.

When a player lifts his arm up and has somewhat of an extension and swings in a gate like fashion - the ball under the arm pit helps bring the elbow down and the player is able to leverage off his body, learn to swing from the shoulder and chest and put his weight into the ball instead of just his arm. You have heard of "arming the ball" before? This is what it helps reduce.

When you feed slow balls to a player with a tennis ball in their arm pits, they learn to rotate into the ball and make contact with their elbow DOWN.

Once they get the hang of this and feel comfortable, the ball is taken out and the arm swings freely. Depending on body position to the ball, the arm will extend some or very little and the person will rely on other parts of their body to contribute to power while keeping the elbow in a good technical position to hit through the ball.

That's it guys! I am done explaining this. It is so simple and so obvious this is happening in pros strokes. Quit measuring the ball under any players swing. That is not the purpose of the exercise. It is to solve an extended arm at the elbow and bring it in more.


I am posting because I was not wrong. I said and repeated the content of this post multiple times, but you simply never responded to the actual content.

The ball drill allows them to control the elbow and keep it from moving. It lets them bring it in more.

Did I not repeat this extensively? Yet, you seem to have no problems with anyone else's posts.

I refuse to admit I'm wrong when I'm not.

Shall I provide quotes again? About allowing the player to get used to controlling the elbow and keep it from moving out? And how after they do this, they can move the elbow out if it's more comfortable?

Yet you seem to believe the entire thing is a contradiction. About how pros control their elbow, yet you should do what's comfortable.

Looks like your knowledge and top 20 university paid off, huh?

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 07:14 AM
I use a eastern forehand and I never think about keeping my elbow close to the body. With the balls bounces as high as average NBA players nowaday, it is impossible to keep the elbow close to the body. It is not just pro having different stokes for different situation, I do too, and I am a lowly 3.5-4.0 player, I bet some others in here too. I can have a varities of swing, side-to-side, low-to-high, back-to-front, and some others in combination of those. Sometimes I think my strokes are not as mechanical as I would like, but they are pretty consistent, so I don't worry about it much now.


That's fine. But you do at least control your elbow, right?

The whole point of moving your elbow in during contact is simply to control it. If you can do this already, that's great. You also have your arm further out with an Eastern grip naturally.

What I've been saying the whole time is that the drill lets the player develop that control. Yet TwistServe seems to disagree entirely, saying that the persons elbow might be out further during an actual match so they should disregard ever having a ball under there in the first place.

Noelle
06-13-2005, 07:20 AM
Umm... Kana, are you replying to Bungalo Bill's post, or TwistServe's quote of B.B.'s post?

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 07:24 AM
I quoted BB, because I have been stating the exact same thing all along.

I'm just telling TwistServe that I have been saying it repeatedly. I'm not really talking about TwistServe's quote though.

Sorry, does that clear it up?

edit::

I'll respond to the quote TwistServe used as well.

Maybe you are right and with time I believe that Kana's efforts to learn the game, teach the game, and help others will pay off for her. The biggest thing she needs to gaurd against is not to lose heart. I am for her, and I think it is great to see such enthusiasm from a youngster for the sport of tennis.

Thank you. ^^ I'm trying as best I can to help people fix problems with their game, and plan on continuing.

I'm just angry and frustrating that I've been stating the right answer all along, and TwistServe only responds to certain parts of the post, although I've been repeating myself over. And over.

If I was wrong, that's fine. I can admit that. But I just don't think I am in this matter, when I've been stating the content of BB's post to TwistServe all along.

Noelle
06-13-2005, 07:27 AM
Yes it does, thanks. :)

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 07:37 AM
I quoted BB, because I have been stating the exact same thing all along.

I'm just telling TwistServe that I have been saying it repeatedly. I'm not really talking about TwistServe's quote though.

Sorry, does that clear it up?


Funny.. why make this full thread when I already said everything BB said in my very first post .. please view post #2.. LOL. You show u need a lot of time to mature.

Noelle
06-13-2005, 07:42 AM
Kana, before you keep trying to explain everything to TwistServe ALL OVER AGAIN, I think you should bear this in mind...

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=423077#post423077

Definition of troll (http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TrollDefinition)
If you find yourself patiently explaining, at length and in great detail, some obscure point to someone who isn't even being polite to you, then you are probably being trolled.

As for you, TwistServe, I thought your comments were beginning to have some merit so I removed you from my ignore list. After this thread, you're back on it.

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 07:46 AM
I said everything and repeated myself multiple posts after the first.

Do I have to quote myself?

Not mature? That's fine. But I've been right in this post all along while you've been repeating the same post about Federer.

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 07:48 AM
This came from YOU yourself in another thread:

As for consistency.. when your elbow is tucked in your brain can make the proper calculations where racquet is at all times.. when your elbow is not tucked in it could be anywhere..

You seem to understand here.

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 07:55 AM
This came from YOU yourself in another thread:



You seem to understand here.

You don't even know what you're aruging .. I said the one ball arm pitt rule is a half myth because you only use it in practice and that you don't use it in the real match. I never said anything about not having your elbow bent as I've mentioned many times I have a 5.0 forehand that will blow your female forehand off the court. You don't even know what you're arguing against! haha..

You said it was the one ball rule was "essential".. that's why BB said you were wrong.. and u kept aruging stubbornly throughout without realizing why... why.. LoL

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 07:56 AM
Kana, before you keep trying to explain everything to TwistServe ALL OVER AGAIN, I think you should bear this in mind...

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=423077#post423077


As for you, TwistServe, I thought your comments were beginning to have some merit so I removed you from my ignore list. After this thread, you're back on it.

I never said I don't have my elbow bent. I said the one ball rule is a half myth and other members have agreed with me, including BB. Please view post #2. Kana claims its not a half myth and that it's essential. Please view her very first post in this thread! Then later she changed it and said do whats comfortable.. Then after that she said its a teaching mechanism and not essential at all.. well which is it?

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 07:58 AM
Yeah, I agree too... if you keep losing all those matches, you got to at least win one on this board.

Wow even you have conceeded that I'm right LoL.. Looks like the only two that think i'm wrong are the two girls that frequenty these boards.. LoL.

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 07:59 AM
Have I not repeated myself enough?

The drill itself is a teaching tool, I said that even before in the FH Consistency thread. They learn how to control the elbow and keep it in place. Then they move out or develop according to personal style and comfort.

As for BB, I stated the content of his post multiple times. If I recall, you were busy repeating the same posts over and over...the same irrelevant posts.

Please note the quote you yourself provided.


edit:: Essential? Yes, I said it was essential for developing that fixed elbow. Is this wrong?

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 08:03 AM
Have I not repeated myself enough?

The drill itself is a teaching tool, I said that even before in the FH Consistency thread. They learn how to control the elbow and keep it in place. Then they move out or develop according to personal style and comfort.

As for BB, I stated the content of his post multiple times. If I recall, you were busy repeating the same posts over and over...the same irrelevant posts.

Please note the quote you yourself provided.


edit:: Essential? Yes, I said it was essential for developing that fixed elbow. Is this wrong?

Wow you're one stubburn skid.. I know you're wrong.. Rickson does, BB does, thelovebone does.. even the tennisplayer who was tryin to defend you knows it... and so does the rest of the board. Why would BB say you're wrong??? WHY?? Is it because you've repeated yourself so consistently throughout all your wonderful intelectual post? Not to mention you were wrong about federer's form too... and BB didn't want to point that out to you directly.

I'll leave this to rest for now as I need to do work to earn $$$ since its not a weekend anymore.

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 08:07 AM
Stubborn? Stubborn and right. The same things you believe are right I've been saying in multiple posts. Did I miss it in the first post? Sure. But I've been repeating the right answers "stubbornly" while you seem to agree with the same thing when someone else says it.

Go off to your six-figure salary job, where you'll probably learn to spell "you" correctly.

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 08:09 AM
Here we go again about whether the elbow should be tucked in, AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

Alright here we go, my views:

1) My coach got us to do that drill you said kana, and it hurt :) but he did explain why the elbow should be tucked in and if you really want to know what he said ask me, i can't be bothered to type it now.

2) What do i do? when I have time my elbow is tucked in (or at least i try to have it close to the body), when I don't have time anything goes :)..................

Grimjack
06-13-2005, 08:10 AM
Stubborn? Stubborn and right. The same things you believe are right I've been saying in multiple posts. Did I miss it in the first post? Sure. But I've been repeating the right answers "stubbornly" while you seem to agree with the same thing when someone else says it.

Go off to your six-figure salary job, where you'll probably learn to spell "you" correctly.

I'd just like to point out that these exchanges have become even more fun since I put TwistServe on the ignore list. I can only imagine what kind of knuckleheaded madness must have spawned this response.

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 08:18 AM
Here we go again about whether the elbow should be tucked in, AGAIN!!!!!!!!!

Alright here we go, my views:

1) My coach got us to do that drill you said kana, and it hurt :) but he did explain why the elbow should be tucked in and if you really want to know what he said ask me, i can't be bothered to type it now.

2) What do i do? when I have time my elbow is tucked in (or at least i try to have it close to the body), when I don't have time anything goes :)..................

LOL, this is amazing. A little tool or exercise can blow up into something this big. This is getting to the point of being hilarious.

The elbow needs to be comfortably close to the body not tucked in and lacking movement. It needs to move. When you hit the ball try and keep the elbow down as you make contact. If the elbow is down, the upper arm comes closer to the side.

You need to know that if you extend your arm (which you will if yoru out of position or are stretched a little), you can still hit the ball but you lose some control because the whole arm can rotate which can alter your racquet face position on contact. Letting the elbow pass by your side helps you create leverage and stability in the stroke.

:P

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 08:23 AM
BB - Did I explain myself completely wrong when trying to explain the purpose of the drill and controlling elbow movement?

It really took off, LOL.

The drill itself is a teaching tool, I said that even before in the FH Consistency thread. They learn how to control the elbow and keep it in place. Then they move out or develop according to personal style and comfort.

I don't know how to explain it any better than that.

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 08:23 AM
my coach says that with the elbow in you can get more racket head speed since you can "whip" it round more.................. =p to you to :)

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 08:29 AM
I do believe you ARE able to whip it around more.

When it's closer to the body, more of your body movement/trunk rotation gets involved. When it's out, you arm it more. Working the large muscles into the shot provides added racquet head speed.

Plus, as for the whip, try whipping through with your arm almost straight. Then have it bent, and try whipping through. Keeping it bent provides even more "whipping" when you extend and straighten through the ball at contact, before your elbow immediately becomes bent again.

That works better with your elbow in closer, since you can control it more easily and whatever else.

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 08:32 AM
I do believe you ARE able to whip it around more.

Hey, Hey, Hey....CHILL..........I'm not saying you don't, ok?

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 08:32 AM
my coach says that with the elbow in you can get more racket head speed since you can "whip" it round more.................. =p to you to :)

In a way yes. It is because the link between your elbow and wrist is small. This can be sped up quickly. But the wrist release is where power from your rotation and speed really kick in.

The elbow in is really about racquet control during a rather violent swing. If you raise your elbow, the joint controlling racquet head roll is mainly with the shoulder. This is not a good thing and usually causes someone to swing stiffly and like a gate.

When the backswing is complete and you tug the elbow forward and it passes comfortably away from your side, it will slow down as it goes in front of your body, then your coaches analysis is becomes a reality. The forearm is slung forward (where he sees it benefiting) and eventually the speed of the wrist release kicks in.

Dont think to much about it as most of this happens naturally. Just bring the elbow forward and in front of the body and make contact. Chances are you are already doing this.

Read this and you will see what I mean.

http://www.easitennis.com/GettingStarted.htm

In a nut shell, every part of your body has something to do with power and speed. It is all part of the kinetic chain.

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 08:34 AM
Hey, Hey, Hey....CHILL..........I'm not saying you don't, ok?

Ah sorry, I wasn't trying to be aggressive or anything at all.

Caps lock key and whatever. It wasn't intended to be pointing any thing at you, I'm just saying I agree with your coach. :D

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 08:34 AM
what exactly is this "wrist release" you're actually reffering to, I've heard it a few times and don't know what it means..........

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 08:37 AM
Ah sorry, I wasn't trying to be aggressive or anything at all.

Caps lock key and whatever. It wasn't intended to be pointing any thing at you, I'm just saying I agree with your coach.

Doesn't matter, you were probably just annoyed with arguing all the time....................

Yeh I like my coach, he teaches some pretty good stuff...........

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 08:38 AM
Wrist release is...releasing the wrist, pretty much.

Until contact, you want to keep the rest fixed and laid back. You're not really using it in the shot. Right before contact, you just let it loosen up and "release" through the ball.

Bungalo Bill refers to it in numerous threads, it might help if you search through some. He should be able to answer it here, too maybe. ^^

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 08:41 AM
what exactly is this "wrist release" you're actually reffering to, I've heard it a few times and don't know what it means..........


Where is Marcius when you need him. He is the master at research. Mahboob and I did a post about the wrist release.

THe wrist release is a natural body mechanism made popular by Andre Agassi. In the world of loopy backswings, Andre came in with this compact motion and generated incredible power in his shots.

At the Vic Braden College, Vic had a stick form video done on Agassi (I still have the tape and wish you guys could come over my house and we could analyze it). In fact, I wish we could analyze soem pro film I have to disprove myths and find out what is really happening in a pros strokes. Maybe some day I will announce an off-court class. Sort of a "Tennis Unplugged" session.

If you bring your hand back where the wrinkle is made o the back part of the hand. Like you are laying back the wrist, all you need to do is relax the wrist and watch it naturally spring forward straight again.

That is a wrist release.

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 08:42 AM
Okies..Thanks Again Kana :)

hmm......... I don't think I can actually relax my wrist when playing................i usually have it kind of like firm and then like a knida "flicky thing" at the end, is this actually bad?

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 08:45 AM
Alright Bill, I think what I was trying to describe with my "flicky thingy" is actually the wrist release.

Thanks.....

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 08:45 AM
Okies..Thanks Again Kana :)

hmm......... I don't think I can actually relax my wrist when playing................i usually have it kind of like firm and then like a knida "flicky thing" at the end, is this actually bad?

A wrist release is NOT a requirement to hit a powerful shot. You do not have to perform it. But I can make a safe bet you have a little bit of one and dont even know it. Because it is a natural move made by your body, at times it goes unnoticed and should.

When you force the wrist forward you have to tighten the tendons and usually they are the ones that take in the shock from the shot.

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 08:48 AM
BB - Did I explain myself completely wrong when trying to explain the purpose of the drill and controlling elbow movement?

It really took off, LOL.



I don't know how to explain it any better than that.

Apparently you said that after claiming it was essential. You also claimed that the player should do whats comfortable after that. You keep changing what you're teaching.

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 08:53 AM
Federers form is not incorrect. It is definetely within the parameters of good technique and what is comfortable to him. If you break down the stroke, the fundamentals are there.

Kana if you don't admit that you're wrong about the armpit half myth, you should at least admit that Federer's form is correct and is not causing his "mishits". If you really feel you're right perhaps you can tell Tony Roche. i'm sure with his 40+ years in tennis experience, he can use the help.

tennisplayer
06-13-2005, 10:33 AM
Wow even you have conceeded that I'm right LoL.. Looks like the only two that think i'm wrong are the two girls that frequenty these boards.. LoL.

Hey TwistServe, you missed the sarcasm in my post, but never mind. I am sorry I reacted to your troll the way I did last night, even though I strongly disagree with your methods of argumentation, and your derisive attitude towards "female forehands".

Anyway, today is a new day, the weather is great out here, and there's a lot of great tennis to be played - I'm out of this thread!

Thereallovebone
06-13-2005, 11:55 AM
THe wrist release is a natural body mechanism made popular by Andre Agassi. In the world of loopy backswings, Andre came in with this compact motion and generated incredible power in his shots.

At the Vic Braden College, Vic had a stick form video done on Agassi (I still have the tape and wish you guys could come over my house and we could analyze it). In fact, I wish we could analyze soem pro film I have to disprove myths and find out what is really happening in a pros strokes. Maybe some day I will announce an off-court class. Sort of a "Tennis Unplugged" session.


.
Here is your boss Vic Braden talking about Andre's wrist release.

In 1996, Dr. Gideon Ariel, Dr. Andre Vorobiev, and I completed a research project on Andre Agassi's forehand. We were quite surprised to find that
he had NO WRIST ACTION (displacement) in his forehand swing just before impacting the ball. His wrist was FIXED and his palm was pointing toward the target BEFORE and WHILE impacting the ball. However, when you watch Andre on television, it looks as though he is snapping at the ball with a wristy
motion. True, his racket actuallly lays back on the backswing because his arm is going forward while the racket is forced backward, which stretches the forearm muscles that serve as a rubber band. But on almost all the forward motion of the racket, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE DEGREE OF WRIST ACTION.

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 01:25 PM
...True, his racket actuallly lays back on the backswing because his arm is going forward while the racket is forced backward, which stretches the forearm muscles that serve as a rubber band.

...But on almost all (KEY PHRASE HERE ROOKIE) the forward motion of the racket, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE DEGREE OF WRIST ACTION.

READ IT DUDE! Do you have selective reading? Do you take things out of context ALL THE TIME? I even bolded and underlined the words in your quote to emphasize what you DIDN'T understand. The key phrases are:

1. "BUT ON ALMOST ALL OF THE FORWARD MOTION OF THE RACQUET"

2. "STRETCHES THE FOREARM THAT SERVE AS A RUBBER BAND"

The phrases above are the beginning explanation of the wrist release. Dude you are such a blind little boy.

What Braden is talking about is Agassi does not use a wristy forehand where he whips the racquet around by using mostly his wrist. Which a lot of people believed awhile back and probably still do! Or he snaps at the ball by purposely moving his wrist forward.

A wristy forehand is not the same as the meaning a true nature of the wrist RELEASE. The stretching of the forearm is the preparation for the RELEASE or RELAXING OF THE WRIST POSITION. GEEZ, MAN READ THE WORD - RELEASE. It means the wrist is NOT moving before it is RELEASED!!!!!!

I am trying to hold back with you. But if I here more lame words, and other things, I am going to bury you and embarrass you.

Please dont bring me to this. I am beginning to think you are just a bitter and frustrated player. I believe a lot of people here are thinking the same - quit doing this - you are better then this. There I have spoken my peace, next time the gloves are off.

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 06:41 PM
She better start working on the writing skills. Forget that 760 SAT score...in the 7th grade.

That's truly amazing that this girl can score a 760 on the SAT in the 7th grade.. especially since that means she beat 99% of graduating seniors in the Verbal SAT, or 92% of the graduating seniors in the Writing SAT. That's an amazing accomplishment for an asian girl that got 760 in the 7th grade. THese highschool kids are taking AP English and writing classes and read tons of literature daily loses to a 7th grader that probably read Sweet Valley High more rather than "Pride and Prejudice".

Collega Board SAT scores breakdown by percentile:

http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/counselors/hs/sat/resources/handbook/4_InterpretingScores.pdf

Meat
06-13-2005, 06:46 PM
That's truly amazing that this girl can score a 760 on the SAT in the 7th grade.. especially since that means she beat 99% of graduating seniors in the Verbal SAT, or 92% of the graduating seniors in the Writing SAT. That's an amazing accomplishment for an asian girl that got 760 in the 7th grade. THese highschool kids are taking AP English and writing classes and read tons of literature daily loses to a 7th grader that probably read Sweet Valley High more rather than "Pride and Prejudice".

Collega Board SAT scores breakdown by percentile:

http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/counselors/hs/sat/resources/handbook/4_InterpretingScores.pdf



Personally, I know Kana. Her family has been friends of mine before I was adopted. She's not my best friend, more of a friendly acquaintance.

But I can verify for the SAT score. She had a 1410 overall, I had to take it with her. 760 verbal, 650 on math for her.

I think (not sure?) you live in Southern California, too. Here, we have a lot of asians (I'm saying mostly, it's a fact, although there are certainly all ethnicities in) that manage to take it at the 7th grade. One had managed a 1590 at this level (holy crap) and received lots of recognition for it. There are still more reports of scores around the 1500 range.

Both yours and her posts have valid points. But I wouldn't be so mad about her saying she got a 760 when you're frequently speaking of your age, top 20 college, and six digit salary. A little more extreme, huh? :D

This is pretty much FYI.

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 06:48 PM
Personally, I know Kana. Her family has been friends of mine before I was adopted. She's not my best friend, more of a friendly acquaintance.

But I can verify for the SAT score. She had a 1410 overall, I had to take it with her. 760 verbal, 650 on math for her.

I think (not sure?) you live in Southern California, too. Here, we have a lot of asians (I'm saying mostly, it's a fact, although there are certainly all ethnicities in) that manage to take it at the 7th grade. One had managed a 1590 at this level (holy crap) and received lots of recognition for it. There are still more reports of scores around the 1500 range.

Both yours and her posts have valid points. But I wouldn't be so mad about her saying she got a 760 when you're frequently speaking of your age, top 20 college, and six digit salary. A little more extreme, huh? :D

This is pretty much FYI.

I didn't say she was lying. I said that's amazing!

Meat
06-13-2005, 06:50 PM
Agh! Sorry for my mistake.

Don't take anything offensive out of that post, I'm trying to stay neutral. Thanks for not taking it the wrong way.

Rickson
06-13-2005, 07:05 PM
I actually appreciate Kana's input on many of her threads and posts, but there is no absolute when it comes to this topic. I believe that if the elbow touching the torso works for you, then that's great, but if players like Federer can find success without using that form, then that's proof enough that the elbow on the body is not absolutely essential for a great forehand.

Mahboob Khan
06-13-2005, 07:46 PM
Experts like Bungalo Bill, Marius, Mahboob Khan, and John Yandell have provided great insights to many tennis-related issues. These experts have never demanded any fee from you; however, they deserve your respect!

The "ball in the arm-pit" is meant to solve a problem -- straight and stiff arm in the backswing, forward swing, contact, and follow through --. In corrections, we the coaches, some time, go from one extreme to the other. Obviously, if the arm is straight and stiff, the racket head cannot be properly aligned with the ball at point of contact. The "ball in the armpit" can only happen if you have a low/relax backswing! With high backswing, the ball will fall off. Once the position of the arm just prior-to, and during-contact, is corrected (e.g. relax and bent), you can then add the loop in the backswing, etc. Yes, the elbow is not supposed to touch the body, and it is also not supposed to be flying away from the body during the forward swing - point of contact - phase!

Take care.

paulfreda
06-13-2005, 10:44 PM
I actually read all 7 pages of this thread. Quite entertaining.

One thing not mentioned is the increased tendency toward a tucked in elbow with stronger SW and FW grips. Try tucking your elbow on a waist high ball with a Continental or even Eastern grip. It is very awkward. The hand underneath the handle just puts it there naturally. And the control one gets from being forced to use the big muscles is a highly beneficial teaching tool. Also learning to get power from the body is highly instructive. Beginners are prey to the bad habit of using the small wrist and elbow only to get power.

As for Braden on Agassi, I well recall Vic explaining how Andre's technique generates whip that is ..... " ten times faster than a normal muscle can contract ..." this way. Saying he does not use wrist release misses this point.

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 10:51 PM
I actually read all 7 pages of this thread. Quite entertaining.


Hows bangkok paulfreda!

paulfreda
06-14-2005, 04:35 AM
Hows bangkok paulfreda!

I have lived here for a little more than one year and I love it.
Tennis facilities are not bad and there are several ITF Futures
events (both men and women) in addition to a WTA and ATP event here
each year.
Weather is hot and humid and cost of living is quite low.
Lots of pensioners here from the West.
And the women are gorgeous and very interested in Western
men as the Thais admire and aspire to the success of the Western
countries. English is the 2nd language and is taught in grade
schools and up now.
Cheers

Bungalo Bill
06-14-2005, 12:20 PM
...Try tucking your elbow on a waist high ball with a Continental or even Eastern grip. It is very awkward...

Very good observation, this is one of the reasons why a player with an Eastern grip needs to lock down the hand/wrist with the forearm.

Phil
06-14-2005, 06:33 PM
[/b]I am trying to hold back with you. But if I here more lame words, and other things, I am going to bury you and embarrass you.

Please dont bring me to this. I am beginning to think you are just a bitter and frustrated player. I believe a lot of people here are thinking the same - quit doing this - you are better then this. There I have spoken my peace, next time the gloves are off.

Whoa, there daddy-oo!!! And you were doing so WELL in this "discussion"-even temperered, clear and even somewhat helpful...I was impressed-you seemed like an island of reason in a sea of b.s.

So, what's with the Jekyll and Hyde act, Dude??? Why does this WRIST thing get you all psychotic? This isn't the first time you've come unhinged about this topic. Take a friggin' chill pill, or else you WILL be annointed the biggest a-hole on this board-officially (now you only have unofficial status as such). You are WAYYY out of line. You know that, don't you. Or do you?

"Now lookee here, buddy (spoken in Jack Nicholson/the Shining voice) I am tryyyyyyyyying to hold back...I am going to bury YOU!!!!!!!!"

Scr*w your gloves, a-hole. Try to act like a mensch for a change, or else at least change your meds.

tom-selleck
06-14-2005, 06:54 PM
how did SAT sciores get into this discussion???? :confused: :confused: this is classic!!!

very interested in this subject as my worst forehands are when i crowd the ball... i know people aren't suggesting crowding the ball.

i get the idea that the "elbow tucked in" as being gospel is one of those older racquet type ideas... and an idea that you can use very well today. but you can go away from it alot....

when people say you shouldn't emulate federer, i actually think this is one thing where you could try to get your elbow a little further out.

Bungalo Bill
06-14-2005, 07:31 PM
how did SAT sciores get into this discussion???? :confused: :confused: this is classic!!!

very interested in this subject as my worst forehands are when i crowd the ball... i know people aren't suggesting crowding the ball.

i get the idea that the "elbow tucked in" as being gospel is one of those older racquet type ideas... and an idea that you can use very well today. but you can go away from it alot....

when people say you shouldn't emulate federer, i actually think this is one thing where you could try to get your elbow a little further out.

ONE MORE TIME!

The elbow is NOT tucked in on a shot.

The elbow MUST move.

Its goal is to get in front of the body plane. But it is best if it passes comfortably close to ones side as it gets there. Comfortably close can have a players preference mixed in on different shots.

For example, I may like hitting a certain ball like a short ball with my elbow passing very close to my side and moving back and forth within a tight distance (backswing and forwardswing). I like to punch the ball more. In the backcourt, I like to hit th eball with my elbow a little more away from my side but not to the point where I lose my leverage.

The elbow is free to move and is comfortably by a players side as it passes by to move the racquet to contact point.

The one ball theory is used ot help a player not swing with an extended arm (straight out) like a gate swings.

Please swing naturally. Please swing with your arm comfortably away from yoru side.

In general, you get your best leverage (less muscle) and the ability to contact the ball cleanly and on time when the elbow is closer to your body then extended away from the body.

It is because the racquet face is closer and can leverage off your shoulder rotation for power and solid contact.

If you extend the arm further away from the body, the arm loses its ability to control the rolling of the forearm.

The reason why Western grip players can have the elbow a little more out of the body (does not mean Eastern grippers cant do it as well) is because of the inherent locking mechanism created by the laid back wrist, the position of the handle in the hand, and the racquet face.

All in all, you still can't defy physics (and dont do your measurement because you saw someone do it in a picture), the elbow closer or comfortably away from the body applies to ALL grips.

Is this it guys? Do we understand now? Chances are most people do not need to use the ball under the arm pit training aid. IT IS NOT A MEASUREMENT FOR REAL PLAY. Real play is dynamic. It is a tool to solve a problems and is created based on fundamental stroke techniques.

Help me out here. Is this clear now? No coach in their right mind would train a player to swing at every shot in a match pretending a ball was under their arm pit. The ball undet the arm pit is an extreme, a tool, a job aid, an exercise, a constraint, a correction device, etc..........

Rabbit
06-15-2005, 07:48 AM
I do not now, nor have I ever played with a ball in my armpit, either right or left. I have never heard of anyone playing with a ball in their armpit. I have never heard an armpit mentioned on court while playing tennis save the one time I called someone an armpit for making a bad call. Well, on second thought, maybe it wasn't armpit, but it was a body part that began with an "A". Further, I would probably not take any more lessons from any pro who attempted to place a tennis ball in my armpit.

I do not know now, nor did I know twenty years ago where my elbow was when I made contact with the ball on any groundstroke. I figured it was where God intended it to be on that particular stroke that particular day. This is not to say that my strokes are divine, or devinely inspired. However, I do think that my maker has some input into my game as in every other aspect of my life. This is not to say, however, that I am one of the pre-destination (Presbyterian) types who believe that everything is mapped out for you, including your elbow. I do believe in free choice, that I have free choice to place my elbow in any position while hitting groundstrokes. But, I also firmly believe that God knows where my elbow is on every stroke I hit.

I do believe and have always believed that your elbow must move. It is a law of nature with regard to tennis. If your elbow's not moving, then you're losing. That's how the old adage goes. It was true with wood, it was true with metal, and it's true with graphite. No matter how far back you go in the history of the sport, you'll never find a champion who didn't move his/her elbow during a match. There was one exception, Drobny Cherkov who was born without elbows, a rare and sometimes fatal disease. It is only fatal because the afflicted person cannot bend thier arms to feed themselves and after weaning from their mothers, they starve to death. Drobny was fortunate enough to have also been a Siamese twin, and after separation, his twin fed him daily. In any event, Cherkov reached the final rounds of Wimbledon in the 1800s. He later took up golf because he had no problem keeping his left arm straight during the takeback of the club.

Finally, I think that a raw egg would probably be better placed in the armpit than a tennis ball. The raw egg would teach touch as well as keeping the elbow tucked in. If a player is too firm with a tucked in elbow, it could lead to a herky-jerky type motion. The raw egg would encourage a softer touch with the tuck.

Rickson
06-15-2005, 10:32 AM
So, what's with the Jekyll and Hyde act, Dude??? Why does this WRIST thing get you all psychotic? This isn't the first time you've come unhinged about this topic. Take a friggin' chill pill, or else you WILL be annointed the biggest a-hole on this board-officially (now you only have unofficial status as such). You are WAYYY out of line. You know that, don't you. Or do you?

Phil, you have nothing to worry about. Bungalo Bill will never take your title.

Bungalo Bill
06-15-2005, 01:48 PM
Whoa, there daddy-oo!!! And you were doing so WELL in this "discussion"-even temperered, clear and even somewhat helpful...I was impressed-you seemed like an island of reason in a sea of b.s.

So, what's with the Jekyll and Hyde act, Dude??? Why does this WRIST thing get you all psychotic? This isn't the first time you've come unhinged about this topic. Take a friggin' chill pill, or else you WILL be annointed the biggest a-hole on this board-officially (now you only have unofficial status as such). You are WAYYY out of line. You know that, don't you. Or do you?

"Now lookee here, buddy (spoken in Jack Nicholson/the Shining voice) I am tryyyyyyyyying to hold back...I am going to bury YOU!!!!!!!!"

Scr*w your gloves, a-hole. Try to act like a mensch for a change, or else at least change your meds.

LOL, welcome back Phil, I see you haven't changed a bit. I would nail you to if you ever said something like that. But you wouldnt risk being embarassed would you now.

Still stuck in your forever 3.0 rating. I see you get ticked off when someone brags about themselves a little. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU CARE ABOUT THAT, PUTZY? How long has it been since you have done anything? Three years now?

Just get over it Phil. Just print out my advice, use it, and you will get better.

Let me know when you're in California I will give you lessons for free. LOL

Bungalo Bill
06-15-2005, 02:16 PM
Phil, you have nothing to worry about. Bungalo Bill will never take your title.

LOL, I KNOW! Literally the biggest loser on this board making comments like this! LOL

Exile
06-15-2005, 02:26 PM
LOL, I KNOW! Literally the biggest loser on this board making comments like this! LOL

Let's play some Tetris, mother******

=)

lighten up, everyone.

papa
06-15-2005, 03:37 PM
Exhausting. Some of it was interesting but a lot was repetitive and extremely boring.

I'm sure Harvard will be interested when the time comes but remember you have to be a 5.5 to play for them - same is probably true for many of the "others".

Phil
06-15-2005, 07:26 PM
LOL, welcome back Phil, I see you haven't changed a bit. I would nail you to if you ever said something like that. But you wouldnt risk being embarassed would you now.

Still stuck in your forever 3.0 rating. I see you get ticked off when someone brags about themselves a little. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU CARE ABOUT THAT, PUTZY? How long has it been since you have done anything? Three years now?

Just get over it Phil. Just print out my advice, use it, and you will get better.

Let me know when you're in California I will give you lessons for free. LOL

You "nail" me? Not likely. Anyone who's been here long enough knows what a joke you are-but hey, keep thinking you CAN do that if it puffs up your (very fragile) ego. I thought you were run out of town a few weeks ago when you were ROUNDLY humiliated. But, you know what they say: Can't kill a cockroache-they'll be around long after the bombs go off...

From what I've heard, you don't even teach anymore, so why would I take a lesson from a "Keyboard Coach"? But I COULD use a few lessons...can you recommend someone in N. California-East Bay area?

Your "advice" as you call it, might help me if I get stuck on that KINETIC CHAIN thingamajig. If that happens, I'll give you a call. Why'ntchu wait by the phone-I should be calling you real soon.

As for bragging, you seem to be refering to posts on different threads, here, and in the other thread, where you made reference to things said HERE. Please, take your meds so you can keep things straight in your mind.

Rickson
06-15-2005, 07:40 PM
Phil, if you think Bungalo Bill is more hated than you are, you are extremely delusional.

Exile
06-15-2005, 08:51 PM
Phil, if you think Bungalo Bill is more hated than you are, you are extremely delusional.


He seems to think that emphasizing BB might take out some of the hate by comparison, but it only fuels us.

Let's play some Tetris mother-lover.

Rickson
06-15-2005, 08:56 PM
He seems to think that emphasizing BB might take out some of the hate by comparison, but it only fuels us.

Let's play some Tetris mother-lover.
I'll play you Tetris, but on what board? I'm good at tetris.

Phil
06-15-2005, 09:08 PM
Phil, if you think Bungalo Bill is more hated than you are, you are extremely delusional.

Rickson- you should probably not get into this, keeping in mind your own proclivities. But if you MUST...me being unpopular here (if that's the case, and because YOU say it is leads me to believe that it ISN'T) is not something that I ever think about. But I DO know that you are, as a regular poster, about as dumb and (based on YOUR posts about your social contacts) socially inept as they come. I usually laugh too much (or say to my self, "Damn that's pathetic") to even post in your threads anymore). And so do many others...

Now, if I am "Hated" by some for what I post here, then there's nothing that I can, or want to do to change that opinion (by some). That's THEIR problem, not mine. Hate is not an emotion that I would have toward some puke on a message board, like you. You (and I) really aren't big enough to hate. I would say, "Think about that one.", but with you, really, that would be futile.

Anyway, don't you have a tennis date with a 2.5 female player-one of the desperate ones that is always calling you? Go now run along. Don't waste your time "hating".

Rickson
06-15-2005, 09:18 PM
Phil, I have no problem telling you that I hate you. Let me tell everyone here, I hate Phil! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Phil
06-15-2005, 09:24 PM
You do so well, Rickson, of proving my point. Time after time; what a bozo. Tetris?

Datacipher
06-16-2005, 01:53 AM
At the Vic Braden College, Vic had a stick form video done on Agassi (I still have the tape and wish you guys could come over my house and we could analyze it). In fact, I wish we could analyze soem pro film I have to disprove myths and find out what is really happening in a pros strokes. Maybe some day I will announce an off-court class. Sort of a "Tennis Unplugged" session.
.

AAHHHH Yes. Your old boss Vic Vraden. I remember you said you still talk to Vic frequently. Talk to him recently Bill? lol

C_Urala
06-16-2005, 03:38 AM
BB, Phil, Datacipher, Rickson! Hi guys.

I'm glad there is something immutable in this world! :)


"Nothing changes cause it's all the same
The world you get's the one you give away
It all just happens again
Way down the line"...

just coudn't say better :)

Phil
06-16-2005, 05:36 PM
BB, Phil, Datacipher, Rickson! Hi guys.

I'm glad there is something immutable in this world! :)


"Nothing changes cause it's all the same
The world you get's the one you give away
It all just happens again
Way down the line"...

just coudn't say better :)

Hi, C_Urala. How're you doing?

Datacipher
06-16-2005, 07:43 PM
Hi, C_Urala. How're you doing?

Yep, C_urala has been around!

Well I'll repeat, Bill have you talked to Vic lately? :-)

Bungalo Bill
06-16-2005, 07:58 PM
AAHHHH Yes. Your old boss Vic Vraden. I remember you said you still talk to Vic frequently. Talk to him recently Bill? lol

Yeah I spoke with him the other day. In fact, it was Saturday two weeks ago. he is doing fine. Want me to tell him something? Or maybe we can help you with your junior players?

Did you go back to school yet? LOL

C_Urala
06-16-2005, 08:18 PM
Hi, Phil.
I'm just fine. You?

Rickson
06-16-2005, 08:49 PM
C Urala, what up, dude?

Phil
06-16-2005, 08:51 PM
Hi, Phil.
I'm just fine. You?

No complaints here...happy as a clam、but busy now, so I should be back on sometime next week. Take Care.

POGO
06-16-2005, 09:03 PM
So much drama in this thread
It isn't a Drama yet until this person http://tinypic.com/5zqus7 gets the last word :)

C_Urala
06-16-2005, 09:19 PM
C Urala, what up, dude?

Hi,
I'm back. Somebody has to be a lightning-rod here ;)

Exile
06-16-2005, 10:59 PM
(steps back, gives C Urala rightful spot)
+1

C_Urala
06-16-2005, 11:38 PM
I didn't mean I'm the only one here. ;)

erik-the-red
06-17-2005, 07:08 AM
This is personal, but I like to suck my elbow in.

Rickson
06-17-2005, 07:16 AM
This is personal, but I like to suck my elbow in.
If it works for you, then that's great, but while I keep a bent elbow, I'm sure I won't be able to keep a ball in my armpit during my stroke.

Noelle
06-17-2005, 07:25 AM
I think the point was to train the elbow not to fly out without control, and that's what putting the ball in the armpit was for. How far your elbow actually is from your body when you swing, however, is a matter of grip, contact point, and personal preference.

I do recall reading something online about Bollettieri making Anna Kournikova perform drills while keeping a ball in her armpit (or was it wedged at her side between the elbow and the chest?) until the contact or shortly after. When I first started playing tennis, I was looking for tips for my erratic forehand, and I found that particular tip. I even did a few practice swings with the ball wedged between my side and my arm so I knew how it felt to keep the elbow from flying out.

This is frustrating. I've tried many keyword combinations on Google but I can't find that certain article. I'll keep looking.

POGO
06-17-2005, 07:36 AM
This is personal, but I like to suck my elbow in.
Ok I'll bite. How does one "suck" an elbow in? I mean you must have some strong lungs :)

LBKY4
06-17-2005, 09:51 AM
I believe the 'elbow close to the body' myth has less to do with control and more to do with speed. Keeping the elbow close to the body would decrease the radius of your swing. The conservation of angular momentum shows that by decreasing the radius of your swing you will increase the velocity of your swing.

If your still clueless check out this link on the conservation of angular momentum (http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr161/lect/solarsys/angmom.html). It explains how ice skaters use the law to speed up their spin.

Datacipher
06-21-2005, 04:43 PM
Yeah I spoke with him the other day. In fact, it was Saturday two weeks ago. he is doing fine. Want me to tell him something? Or maybe we can help you with your junior players?

Did you go back to school yet? LOL

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=449332#post449332