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View Full Version : Venus looking good to win the AO this year


jdubbs
01-18-2011, 10:21 AM
With Serena out, Clijsters is the only one I see giving her any problems on her 2nd favorite surface.

Who says American tennis is dead?

NadalAgassi
01-18-2011, 10:25 AM
LOL what do you base this on. Easily beating some Saru Errano or whatever her name was. This thread would make sense if it was 2002 or 2003 maybe, have you been in a coma for 8 years now. Venus has only made 2 quarterfinals in Australia in the last 8 years and she was beaten by Ivanovic and Li Na those two times. Her last non Wimbledon slam final was 2003, that includes the U.S Open where she is far stronger than the Australian Open.

Trust me there are alot of players in the draw to give her trouble on this court besides Clijsters. Henin, a variety of Russians, Na, and based on recent history many others.

Your logic might make sense if this was Wimbledon and Serena was out, and even that might be generous at this point.

Dont get me wrong, I like Venus and would love to see it but it is a long shot at best.

kishnabe
01-18-2011, 12:07 PM
Stosur+Williams final....Stousur winnign!

Manus Domini
01-18-2011, 12:14 PM
sorry, but Henin and Stosur are also there, and there may be Vera and Caroline in there to hurt her chances as well

Tanya
01-18-2011, 12:59 PM
Henin nearly lost to Sania Mirza in the first round. I am not impressed at all with her form. Venus looked 10x better.

Gizo
01-18-2011, 01:04 PM
Obviously they couldn't meet until the final, so that match is extremely unliked to go ahead here, but Stosur is no threat to Venus on any surface.

Venus is an absolutely terrible match-up for Stosur, even on clay. Stosur's topspin sits up nicely for tall, big hitters to swat away all day long. That is why she has never beaten Venus (with two straight sets defeats on clay), Sharapova (who was one point away from double bagelling her at Tokyo in 2009) and Vaidisova, and receiving a heavy beating by a slumping Ivanovic at Wimbledon in 2009.

Joe Pike
01-18-2011, 01:15 PM
With Serena out, Clijsters is the only one I see giving her any problems on her 2nd favorite surface.

Who says American tennis is dead?


Venus in the last 10 years at AO:

Was destroyed by Hingis in the 01 semis (16 16).
Lost to #10 Seles in the 02 quarters.
Made her only final in 03 losing to Serena.
Lost in 04 to Raymond and in 05 to Molik in earlier rounds, both in 2-setters.
Lost to Pironkova in the 2st round in 06.
Lost to Ivanovic in the 08 quarters (2 sets).
Lost to Suarez Navarro in 09.
Lost to Li in the 10 quarters.

Is 2-6 in matches against top-10 players at the AO.
Is 30 years old.

Forget it.

NadalAgassi
01-18-2011, 01:15 PM
Henin nearly lost to Sania Mirza in the first round. I am not impressed at all with her form. Venus looked 10x better.

Big deal. Last year Henin nearly lost to everyone and still made the final and almost beat Serena despite still not playing that well (for her). I like Venus more than Henin, but I would always favor Henin over Venus in Australia. OK in 2000-2003 I would favor Venus over Henin here but never since. Henin's career record in Australia is far superior, and her record the last 7-8 years here is on another planet from Venus's. Venus hasnt even made the U.S Open final since 2002 despite consistency excellent performances there, and is far better on those courts than the slower Australian courts which actually have been her 2nd worst surface after clay. And she lost her only meeting with Henin on hard courts in the last almost 8 years, and it was at the U.S Open on a much preferred surface for Venus and when both women were playing alot better than today so that evens out. Of course they could only play in the semis and I doubt Venus making it that far when her last semifinal here was 2003, and even Henin isnt a lock to make it that far anymore, so it is probably moot.

Mirza too is a more dangerous player than the person Venus played too who is just a steady pusher type. We will see when Venus starts playing some women who can run down her shots and hits back with some pace how she fares. I wish her well but recent history indicates it probably will be big trouble once she meets someone like this.

adidasman
01-18-2011, 01:16 PM
Henin nearly lost to Sania Mirza in the first round. I am not impressed at all with her form. Venus looked 10x better. And Henin has been out for how long? Give her a few more matches, and she'll be just fine. Sania Mirza isn't a cake walk, you know. Who did Venus play? Anyone you've heard of?

Underhand
01-18-2011, 01:17 PM
Obviously they couldn't meet until the final, so that match is extremely unliked to go ahead here, but Stosur is no threat to Venus on any surface.

Venus is an absolutely terrible match-up for Stosur, even on clay. Stosur's topspin sits up nicely for tall, big hitters to swat away all day long. That is why she has never beaten Venus (with two straight sets defeats on clay), Sharapova (who was one point away from double bagelling her at Tokyo in 2009) and Vaidisova, and receiving a heavy beating by a slumping Ivanovic at Wimbledon in 2009.

Venus got her arse handed to her by SuŠrez Navarro's heavy topspin balls to her backhand on the '09 AO.

Tanya
01-18-2011, 01:22 PM
And Henin has been out for how long? Give her a few more matches, and she'll be just fine. Sania Mirza isn't a cake walk, you know. Who did Venus play? Anyone you've heard of?

Venus has played one more tournament than Henin since Wimbledon. Their conditioning should be similar. Sania Mirza has a big forehand which can do damage....when she actually hits it in the court. Mirza's an error-machine--everyone knows it.

I believe Venus defeated her easily in AO 08 actually, back when Sania Mirza was actually relevant.

single_handed_champion
01-18-2011, 01:24 PM
Venus has played one more tournament than Henin since Wimbledon. Their conditioning should be similar. Sania Mirza has a big forehand which can do damage....when she actually hits it in the court. Mirza's an error-machine--everyone knows it.

I believe Venus defeated her easily in AO 08 actually, back when Sania Mirza was actually relevant.

If you actually watched the match, you'd know Sania was in a position to win the 1st set (served for it) and only lost in a tiebreak, clobbering several forehands throughout. Anyway, Venus ended up losing to Ivanovic that year, enough said.

NadalAgassi
01-18-2011, 01:25 PM
Venus was still alot better than she is today in 2008. Comparing Venus of today to Venus of 2008 is like comparing Henin of today to Henin of 2007.

It is pointless to overread Henin's first round performance. Serena nearly lost to Loit, some fat junkballing French chick in the first round one year, and came back to win the tournament. I dont expect Henin to win the title, I expect Clijsters to, but I definitely favor Henin to go further than Venus at this tournament which she does virtually every year both play it. I also could imagine Henin winning the title here, which I honestly cant of Venus when she hasnt come close in eons.

[Z]engin
01-18-2011, 01:29 PM
She didn't even play that well,

what makes you really think she will win the AO?

Tanya
01-18-2011, 01:36 PM
Anyway, Venus ended up losing to Ivanovic that year, enough said.

Your irrelevance readings are off the charts. Venus lost to Ivanovic, who defeated Safina at RG, who creamed Henin in Rome. What's your point?

Venus was still alot better than she is today in 2008. Comparing Venus of today to Venus of 2008 is like comparing Henin of today to Henin of 2007.

In the second half of 08, yeah. In the first half of the year, especially at the AO, Venus was not playing anywhere near the level of the second half.

single_handed_champion
01-18-2011, 01:47 PM
Your irrelevance readings are off the charts. Venus lost to Ivanovic, who defeated Safina at RG, who creamed Henin in Rome. What's your point?



In the second half of 08, yeah. In the first half of the year, especially at the AO, Venus was not playing anywhere near the level of the second half.

Yeah, what a shock. Thats happened only every year of her career.

Tanya
01-18-2011, 01:48 PM
Yeah, what a shock. Thats happened only every year of her career.

I guess you're ignoring last year.

single_handed_champion
01-18-2011, 01:59 PM
I guess you're ignoring last year.

Well, she did not play at all after Wimbledon, except the USO, but still had her 2 best Slam showings at W and USO as usual (QF, SF, as opposed to QF+4R at AO, RG).

Anyway, point is she obviously performs much better during the fastcourt swing.

cknobman
01-18-2011, 02:01 PM
Shell make it TO Henin but I see her going no further.

NadalAgassi
01-18-2011, 02:19 PM
Your irrelevance readings are off the charts. Venus lost to Ivanovic, who defeated Safina at RG, who creamed Henin in Rome. What's your point?

If you saw the match, which if you are a Venus fan I am sure you did, you will see Venus played erratic and very dissapointing tennis in losing that match to Ana. I would know since I was watching the match as it was one of the few recent years I thought Venus could go to the final there and was dissapointed and even disgusted with her performance. Ana didnt even play great that day and still won in straight sets over Venus shanking easy forehands and even hitting easy overheads into the net. Which is per usual in Australia in Venus's losses there for awhile now. She plays some good matches but that bad performance is always sure to pop up at some point. Stringing together 7 strong performances on any slower surface is a huge ask for Venus at this stage of her career.

And beat whom who beat whom is pointless. Fact is Ana has never beaten Henin head to head and couldnt even beat her when they met in the warmup for Australia when Henin was already struggling. Ana beat Safina in a slam final which is about as difficult as lighting a fire with gasoline and a match, hardly surprising.

Anyway it doesnt matter. We will all find out soon enough how it will all go. My point, and nearly everyone elses in this thread, is simply to suggest Kim is the only obstacle between Venus and an easy romp to the Australian Open title is laughable. It is obviously someone delusional or who hasnt watched the Australian Open for a very long time.

zak425
01-18-2011, 04:30 PM
People actually choose to willingly watch her matches? Huh! I always thought they televised them to torture tennis fans.

Venus has the same chance of winning this that her dress does to become a best seller

cc0509
01-18-2011, 09:04 PM
Venus is not looking so good right now.

I want Clijsters to win the tourney.

Spin Doctor
01-18-2011, 09:11 PM
I definitely think she's been underestimated simply because she hasn't played much since the US Open, which IMO doesn't mean as much for the women as it does for the the men. She's a former champion who knows how to get it done in majors so I would say she's a contender for the title. Both Clijsters and Williams can be erratic but I give them the best shot at winning the title simply because they've proven themselves before at this level.

But what's the deal with that inhaler? Not a good sign.

zak425
01-18-2011, 09:15 PM
You're saying this as Venus is about to lose the 1st set to someone she should be bageling if using your perception of her game. What was the last title she won? Acapulco?

cc0509
01-18-2011, 09:49 PM
All I can say is the level of screaming from both Venus and Zahlavova
is from the theatre of the absurd. I mean are they for real?
Sharapova is silent compared to these two!

longst
01-18-2011, 09:55 PM
Takes a lot of guts? for Venus to come back after that injury timeout. I thought she was going home.

cc0509
01-18-2011, 10:01 PM
Takes a lot of guts? for Venus to come back after that injury timeout. I thought she was going home.

Obviously she must not be hurt at badly as they thought.

longst
01-18-2011, 10:04 PM
Naw she isn't playing possum. She isn't moving well.

SoCal10s
01-18-2011, 10:05 PM
oh please .. she looks like she gain so much weight in the mid-section .. she's having a hard time chasing down balls .. at this rate she's going get hurt and pull out of the tournament ..

longst
01-18-2011, 10:09 PM
yeah teh Williams sisters need to train harder. Take a page out of Martinas book. She was never injured partially because she was super trained.

NadalAgassi
01-18-2011, 10:13 PM
Another thread destined to be an epic fail, something I knew even before tonight.

DMan
01-18-2011, 11:25 PM
With Serena out, Clijsters is the only one I see giving her any problems on her 2nd favorite surface.

Who says American tennis is dead?

I do.

But Venus is looking good to win this year's Australian Open........in a contest for the most hideous outfit........two days in a row! Time to rethink that other career that would have anything to do with fashion design!

jdubbs
01-19-2011, 04:18 AM
Heart of a lion. She looked pretty badly injured but came back for the win.

If only Sam Querrey had the heart and toughness she's shown tonight. Or Tipsarevic, who tanked the last set so badly I was massively embarrassed for the sport and had to explain to my wife what tanking is. "But why would you tank a 5th set in the AO?" I had no answer for this.

Say what you will, but V. Williams showed a ton of determination and guts in that match.

Maybe it was wishful thinking for her to win the tourney but I wanted to see the level of hate for her, and it looks like it remains strong, something that's sad and I don't understand. The Williams sisters have dominated tennis doing things their way, and I guess because they don't look or act like Chris Evert, it makes people uncomfortable.

Yeah, she wears funny outfits, yeah she screams too much, yeah she's not warm and cuddly and cute, yeah her parents are a bit outspoken...but coming from where she did to be where she is...that's an unbelievable story almost unparalleled in sports. A true American success story. Too bad people are blinded by hate and maybe a little racism to see that.

cknobman
01-19-2011, 07:57 AM
Heart of a lion. She looked pretty badly injured but came back for the win.

If only Sam Querrey had the heart and toughness she's shown tonight. Or Tipsarevic, who tanked the last set so badly I was massively embarrassed for the sport and had to explain to my wife what tanking is. "But why would you tank a 5th set in the AO?" I had no answer for this.

Say what you will, but V. Williams showed a ton of determination and guts in that match.

Maybe it was wishful thinking for her to win the tourney but I wanted to see the level of hate for her, and it looks like it remains strong, something that's sad and I don't understand. The Williams sisters have dominated tennis doing things their way, and I guess because they don't look or act like Chris Evert, it makes people uncomfortable.

Yeah, she wears funny outfits, yeah she screams too much, yeah she's not warm and cuddly and cute, yeah her parents are a bit outspoken...but coming from where she did to be where she is...that's an unbelievable story almost unparalleled in sports. A true American success story. Too bad people are blinded by hate and maybe a little racism to see that.

Your post was full of so much win until that and now you loose most of your credibility.

I hate when people use the "racism" tactic because most of the time the people that use that tactic are "racist" themselves.

adidasman
01-19-2011, 07:59 AM
Yeah, she wears funny outfits, yeah she screams too much, yeah she's not warm and cuddly and cute, yeah her parents are a bit outspoken...but coming from where she did to be where she is...that's an unbelievable story almost unparalleled in sports. A true American success story. Too bad people are blinded by hate and maybe a little racism to see that. "Almost unparalleled in sports"? The Venus and Serena story? Maybe it's almost unparalleled in American tennis (although Arthur Ashe and Althea Gibson had it tougher, because racism was so much more open when they were coming up), but that kind of story happens all the time in baseball and basketball and football. Give me a break. Almost as bad as people disliking them because of their race is people fawning over them as if they were some kind of miracle. They're talented, their dad drove them like crazy (and had help from top teaching pros that is rarely mentioned), and they excelled. That story happens in life often. The fact that they've been so self-absorbed and unwilling to give back to the sport in tangible ways is sad to me; they could have been and done so much more.

NadalAgassi
01-19-2011, 08:21 AM
Heart of a lion. She looked pretty badly injured but came back for the win.

If only Sam Querrey had the heart and toughness she's shown tonight. Or Tipsarevic, who tanked the last set so badly I was massively embarrassed for the sport and had to explain to my wife what tanking is. "But why would you tank a 5th set in the AO?" I had no answer for this.

Say what you will, but V. Williams showed a ton of determination and guts in that match.

Maybe it was wishful thinking for her to win the tourney but I wanted to see the level of hate for her, and it looks like it remains strong, something that's sad and I don't understand. The Williams sisters have dominated tennis doing things their way, and I guess because they don't look or act like Chris Evert, it makes people uncomfortable.

Yeah, she wears funny outfits, yeah she screams too much, yeah she's not warm and cuddly and cute, yeah her parents are a bit outspoken...but coming from where she did to be where she is...that's an unbelievable story almost unparalleled in sports. A true American success story. Too bad people are blinded by hate and maybe a little racism to see that.

Serena has somewhat dominated tennis. It is pretty hard to say "the Williams sisters" have dominated tennis when Venus hasnt even won 2 of the 4 slams ever, has not made a non Wimbledon final since 2003, and when another women Justine Henin has the same # of slams as Venus and arguably a better career (note I said arguably).

If I was racist I wouldnt have started a thread saying I think Serena is the best player in history ability wise even ahead of Navratilova and Graf (which I took alot of heat for since the numbers dont back that up but it is my opinion). I simply dont think Venus has that good a chance to win the Australian Open is all, even less now with her unfortunate injury. If she does do it would be an amazing story though so good luck to her and hopefully she doesnt make her injury worse by continuing to play.

Joe Pike
01-19-2011, 08:27 AM
...
If I was racist I wouldnt have started a thread saying I think Serena is the best player in history ability wise even ahead of Navratilova and Graf ...


So hating European-born tennis greats is not "racist"?

NadalAgassi
01-19-2011, 08:32 AM
Downplaying the greatness of players who owe half their slams to a knife is not racist, no. Imagine how many slams Serena would have won if Henin and Venus were both stabbed.

adidasman
01-19-2011, 08:43 AM
Downplaying the greatness of players who owe half their slams to a knife is not racist, no. Imagine how many slams Serena would have won if Henin and Venus were both stabbed. Imagine how many Grand Slam titles Serena would have won if she kept her weight down, got into better shape, and played more tournaments? Those are all things she had control over, but didn't care enough about to change. That's her choice, of course, but it's tarnished her legacy.

BrooklynNY
01-19-2011, 08:59 AM
Imagine how many Grand Slam titles Serena would have won if she kept her weight down, got into better shape, and played more tournaments? Those are all things she had control over, but didn't care enough about to change. That's her choice, of course, but it's tarnished her legacy.

Really, I don't think her legacy is tarnished. Get real. Maybe it is in your own disillusioned world, but in the real world, her legacy is fine. She is the most successful womens tennis player of the last 10 years.

adidasman
01-19-2011, 11:55 AM
Really, I don't think her legacy is tarnished. Get real. Maybe it is in your own disillusioned world, but in the real world, her legacy is fine. She is the most successful womens tennis player of the last 10 years. I'm saying she could have legitimately been the best of all time based on record - but won't be because of how she's handled her career. That has nothing to do with my "disillusioned world." I wasn't insulting her, you know - just stating facts. If you want to debate what I said, you're the disillusioned one. Why do Serena fans take everything that isn't a glowing comment as some kind of attack on her? Gee whiz.

Andy Zarzuela
01-19-2011, 08:57 PM
I think Venus plays better on clay than in Australia for some reason. She always tends to have tough luck either in an early round, or falters in big matches. Though the Aussie is a slower court than American hardcourts, it's a shocker that she hasn't won it yet. I think it has to do because she eases into her year choosing exhibition matches over a warmup event. But, she will probably continue this until she retires. I think she has at least this season and one more to follow. She stated she wanted to play in the 2012 Olympics, we'll see how her body will hold up especially after this terrible injury.

Wicked4hand
01-19-2011, 09:32 PM
She wont go anywhere with that uglly dress or whatever u call that

NLBwell
01-19-2011, 09:44 PM
Venus was probably fortunate in that match that she got hurt. It woke her up from her stupor. It made her step up into the court, hit more aggressively, and not get into the baseline rallys she was losing to the other girl. Of course it also freaked the other girl out so much she couldn't get a ball in the court the second set. Venus needs to be aggressive to win, she will get beaten if she rallys with a good opponent (like Roddick).
The problem will be how Venus' groin feels tomorrow. I know the therapists can sometimes work seeming miracles, but it will stiffen up a lot - good thing she doesn't have to play today.
Kudos to Venus for hanging in there in that match.

jdubbs
01-19-2011, 10:11 PM
Serena has somewhat dominated tennis. It is pretty hard to say "the Williams sisters" have dominated tennis when Venus hasnt even won 2 of the 4 slams ever, has not made a non Wimbledon final since 2003, and when another women Justine Henin has the same # of slams as Venus and arguably a better career (note I said arguably).



48 slams (incl doubles) between the 2 sisters is utter and total domination, sorry.

NadalAgassi
01-19-2011, 10:15 PM
48 slams (incl doubles) between the 2 sisters is utter and total domination, sorry.

Nobody cares about doubles, especialy these days. If so Zvereva, Gigi Fernandez, Shriver, Sukova, Daniel Nestor, Todd Woodbridge, Paul Haarhuis, (amongst others) would be legends of tennis. Venus has never won the Australian or French Opens and hasnt make a non Wimbledon final since January 2003. Aside from her sister whose record is on another stratosphere from Venus in all respects, Justine Henin (who I cant stand btw) has the same # of slams (in singles), far time at #1, and a better overall record. Serena dominates tennis, but Venus in no form dominates tennis outside of grass, sorry.

adidasman
01-20-2011, 06:57 AM
48 slams (incl doubles) between the 2 sisters is utter and total domination, sorry. Yeah, they're really dominated Renae Stubbs, Lisa Raymond, and Cara Black. Impressive.

THUNDERVOLLEY
01-20-2011, 07:10 AM
Yeah, they're really dominated Renae Stubbs, Lisa Raymond, and Cara Black. Impressive.

I'm fairly certain Martina would not agree with the less than favorable view of doubles (at the majors) posted by some around here.

adidasman
01-20-2011, 08:15 AM
I'm fairly certain Martina would not agree with the less than favorable view of doubles (at the majors) posted by some around here. Nothing wrong with the game of doubles - though what most women play (including the Williams sisters) bears little resemblance to the doubles game Martina played. Two women bashing groundies from the baseline while the "net" players stand there and watch, hoping for a sitter, isn't exactly textbook. And, to be fair, the best players don't play doubles now - not even close. At least when Martina was in her heyday, some of the top players still played doubles. If I've offended Ms. Navratilova inadvertently, I'm sure, down deep, it's just because she's a lesbian - the same way I only insult the Williams sisters because they're black. ;)

NadalAgassi
01-20-2011, 08:43 AM
I'm fairly certain Martina would not agree with the less than favorable view of doubles (at the majors) posted by some around here.

While that is true, Martina and Court would be considered the far and away GOATs if doubles were given any value (forget anywhere near equal to singles, any at all really) when you combine their doubles and singles achievements. Yet instead they are considered as relatively equal to Graf and Evert by most experts in the GOAT race, Graf and Evert who I think have one slam each in doubles and only dabbled in it occasionaly, reflecting virtually no consideration given to their doubles success, rightly or wrongly.

jdubbs
01-20-2011, 10:30 AM
(sigh) ok Serena has 13 SINGLES Slam titles, Venus 7 SINGLES slam titles. So lets say 20 SINGLES Grand slam titles between them.

Lets look at the numbers:
Serena Williams -13 Singles Grand Slam Titles
Venus Williams -7
Total: 20
Foes:
Justine Henin -7
Kim Clijsters -3
Kuznetsova -2
Myskina -1

Taken together, there is little doubt they have dominated tennis over the last decade. And Serena undoubtedly has, despite missing the last few grand slams. Take doubles out if you want, but facts are facts.

Joe Pike
01-20-2011, 11:09 AM
(sigh) ok Serena has 13 SINGLES Slam titles, Venus 7 SINGLES slam titles. So lets say 20 SINGLES Grand slam titles between them.

Lets look at the numbers:
Serena Williams -13 Singles Grand Slam Titles
Venus Williams -7
Total: 20
Foes:
Justine Henin -7
Kim Clijsters -3
Kuznetsova -2
Myskina -1

Taken together, there is little doubt they have dominated tennis over the last decade. And Serena undoubtedly has, despite missing the last few grand slams. Take doubles out if you want, but facts are facts.


In the last 10 years they have won 17 of 40 slams.
They have 26 of 80 slam final appearances among them.

That is great of course, but no "domination".

jdubbs
01-20-2011, 11:23 AM
In the last 10 years they have won 17 of 40 slams.
They have 26 of 80 slam final appearances among them.

That is great of course, but no "domination".

Ok, so 17 out of 40 is 43%.

Lets see how that stacks up:

1997-2008, Tiger Woods won 14 out of 44 (32%) grand slams and was considered the "dominant" golfer of that time.

2000-2010 New England Patriots won 3 out of 10 SB's (30%) and were considered dominant

1988 -2006 Michael Schumacher won 7 out of 18 (39%) World Championships and is considered the best Formula 1 car racer of all time.


So statistically, the Williams sisters have been more dominant than some of the greatest athletes of the new millenium.

Care to rethink your opinion?

NadalAgassi
01-20-2011, 11:23 AM
(sigh) ok Serena has 13 SINGLES Slam titles, Venus 7 SINGLES slam titles. So lets say 20 SINGLES Grand slam titles between them.

Lets look at the numbers:
Serena Williams -13 Singles Grand Slam Titles
Venus Williams -7
Total: 20
Foes:
Justine Henin -7
Kim Clijsters -3
Kuznetsova -2
Myskina -1

Taken together, there is little doubt they have dominated tennis over the last decade. And Serena undoubtedly has, despite missing the last few grand slams. Take doubles out if you want, but facts are facts.

By that logic we could put Serena and Justine jointly together too and say they completely dominated womens tennis atleast as much:

Serena Williams- 13
Justine Henin- 7

Foes:

Venus- 7
Clijsters- 3
Kuznetsova- 2
Myskina- 1

Sorry Venus and Serena arent attached at the hip. Serena is head and shoulders above everyone of her era, thus yes is dominant. Venus is not.

NadalAgassi
01-20-2011, 11:27 AM
Ok, so 17 out of 40 is 43%.

Lets see how that stacks up:

1997-2008, Tiger Woods won 14 out of 44 (32%) grand slams and was considered the "dominant" golfer of that time.

2000-2010 New England Patriots won 3 out of 10 SB's (30%) and were considered dominant

1988 -2006 Michael Schumacher won 7 out of 18 (39%) World Championships and is considered the best Formula 1 car racer of all time.


So statistically, the Williams sisters have been more dominant than some of the greatest athletes of the new millenium.

Care to rethink your opinion?

Venus and Serena are TWO people. Not one person or one team like all your other examples. Take Serena alone and yes you could make a case for her being similarily dominant to other great athletes in other sports. Stop trying to build up Venus to something she isnt by attaching her to Serena's coattails. The top womens players of this generation look like this:


Serena


------huge gap-----------








Henin
Venus


-----big gap------------




Clijsters
Davenport


-------gap------------


Sharapova



Clijsters is going the strongest of anyone at the moment and could close the gap in a big way on Henin and Venus in the near future.


Your attempted logic is a bigger fail than this thread.

adidasman
01-20-2011, 11:28 AM
Ok, so 17 out of 40 is 43%.

Lets see how that stacks up:

1997-2008, Tiger Woods won 14 out of 44 (32%) grand slams and was considered the "dominant" golfer of that time.

2000-2010 New England Patriots won 3 out of 10 SB's (30%) and were considered dominant

1988 -2006 Michael Schumacher won 7 out of 18 (39%) World Championships and is considered the best Formula 1 car racer of all time.


So statistically, the Williams sisters have been more dominant than some of the greatest athletes of the new millenium.

Care to rethink your opinion? Other than the fact that you're comparing two people to one person each in the examples above, your argument is flawless. :)

jdubbs
01-20-2011, 12:05 PM
Actually, my original point was that the Williams SISTERS dominated tennis (including doubles) in the last decade. 48 slam titles in all.

First, a couple of posters asked that we strike "doubles" titles from this domination record. Well, ok, technically it does take TWO to play doubles, but whatever.

A poster then pointed out that , out of singles titles, merely winning 17 out of 40 titles was hardly "domination."

I then pointed out that 43% winning % was extremely high when looked at in historical terms.

You can continue to split hairs if you like.

The Williams sisters have dominated women's tennis in the last decade, and that is a fact. I hereby rest my case.

Thread closed.

NadalAgassi
01-20-2011, 12:10 PM
Serena and Henin combined have dominated tennis over the last decade more than Serena and Venus combined. After all combined they have won 19 of 40 slams over the last decade, more than 17 of 20. If you combine them Henin's dominance of clay and Serena's dominance of the Australian and Wimbledon give them a nicer balance of results- 5 French Opens, 4 Wimbledons, 6 Australian Opens, and 4 U.S Opens over the last decade between them. With Venus and Serena combined you have almost nothing at the French Open. Likewise Henin has been year end #1 three different times and Serena 2 different times in that span, giving them 5 out of 10 of those too, whereas with Venus and Serena it is only 2 of the last 10 years. And in practical terms between them they dominated almost all of the last decade- 2002 (Serena), 2003 (Serena and Henin), 2004 (neither but Australian, Olympic Gold, Miami, and Wimbledon runner up between them still), 2005 (neither but Australian and French titles between them), 2006 (Henin), 2007 (Henin, 3 of 4 slams, Miami, and WTA Championships combining them too), 2008 (Serena), 2009 (Serena), 2010 (Serena). Venus who shared dominance of 2001 with Capriati, and was never close to the best player in the World any other year of the last decade (dominant #2 but far far behind Serena in 2002) contributes almost nothing here either.

So a far more accurate statement would be Serena and Henin (since you insist on this paired formula) have dominated tennis over the last decade. Thread closed. Your desperate attempt to build up Venus by attaching her to Serena's coattails is not going to work.

adidasman
01-20-2011, 12:10 PM
Actually, my original point was that the Williams SISTERS dominated tennis (including doubles) in the last decade. 48 slam titles in all.

First, a couple of posters asked that we strike "doubles" titles from this domination record. Well, ok, technically it does take TWO to play doubles, but whatever.

A poster then pointed out that , out of singles titles, merely winning 17 out of 40 titles was hardly "domination."

I then pointed out that 43% winning % was extremely high when looked at in historical terms.

You can continue to split hairs if you like.

The Williams sisters have dominated women's tennis in the last decade, and that is a fact. I hereby rest my case.

Thread closed. Yes, sir. Sorry to intrude on your forum.

adidasman
01-20-2011, 12:12 PM
Your original point was that you thought Venus looks poised to win the AO, which is patently absurd based on her recent performances. It's been all downhill since then. Case thrown out for lack of evidence.

TMF
01-20-2011, 12:20 PM
Actually, my original point was that the Williams SISTERS dominated tennis (including doubles) in the last decade. 48 slam titles in all.

First, a couple of posters asked that we strike "doubles" titles from this domination record. Well, ok, technically it does take TWO to play doubles, but whatever.

A poster then pointed out that , out of singles titles, merely winning 17 out of 40 titles was hardly "domination."

I then pointed out that 43% winning % was extremely high when looked at in historical terms.

You can continue to split hairs if you like.

The Williams sisters have dominated women's tennis in the last decade, and that is a fact. I hereby rest my case.

Thread closed.


But you had to COMBINED two players in order to add up 42.5%. If itís ONLY one player winning 17 out of 40 slams(42.5%), then yeah, you can say thatís dominating.

The WS are not dominating, especially Venus where sheís not in Heninís league. If you look at the WS career, their numbers are quite inferior...slams, weeks at #1, yr end #1, total titles, etc. Many importants stats they are even behind some of their peers.


Case closed.

NadalAgassi
01-20-2011, 12:22 PM
I think it is harsh to say Venus is not in Henin's league. I think they are at the same sort of level with Henin equal or slightly ahead. That just shows it is stupid to say they dominate though when Venus isnt even clearly the #2 of her own era (and probably isnt). To say they dominate would mean they are by far the 2 best players like Federer and Nadal.

Serena is by far the best player of her generation. That has nothing to do with Venus however.

adidasman
01-20-2011, 12:30 PM
It suddenly hit me. jdubbs, this is about more than tennis, isn't it? Your moniker gave you away. That's OK. You go on liking Venus and Serena all you want, for whatever reasons you want - but maybe try to be more objective. Venus just isn't a factor any more, and hasn't been for several years. An outside chance? Sure. A favorite at a major? Nope. Never again.

MichaelNadal
01-20-2011, 12:38 PM
It suddenly hit me. jdubbs, this is about more than tennis, isn't it? Your moniker gave you away. That's OK. You go on liking Venus and Serena all you want, for whatever reasons you want - but maybe try to be more objective. Venus just isn't a factor any more, and hasn't been for several years. An outside chance? Sure. A favorite at a major? Nope. Never again.

i don't know about all that. She is more than an outsider. Reached the 09 Wimby final, at LEAST the quarters of all 4 slams last year and was a hair from the US Open final.

TMF
01-20-2011, 12:41 PM
Nothing wrong with the game of doubles - though what most women play (including the Williams sisters) bears little resemblance to the doubles game Martina played. Two women bashing groundies from the baseline while the "net" players stand there and watch, hoping for a sitter, isn't exactly textbook. And, to be fair, the best players don't play doubles now - not even close. At least when Martina was in her heyday, some of the top players still played doubles. If I've offended Ms. Navratilova inadvertently, I'm sure, down deep, it's just because she's a lesbian - the same way I only insult the Williams sisters because they're black. ;)

I agree. Double shouldn’t be lump in with single achievements since it’s a team effort. Most players pursue either single or double as a career. Great double players like Bryan’s brother stick to what they do best. had they chose full time playing single, they would never achieved as they have today. Thundervolley is just trying to boost the WS by including double no matter how foolish he sound. We all know his agenda.

NadalAgassi
01-20-2011, 12:42 PM
i don't know about all that. She is more than an outsider. Reached the 09 Wimby final, at LEAST the quarters of all 4 slams last year and was a hair from the US Open final.

Wimbledon is the only place she is still arguably a favorite (if she doesnt make the final this year after last years showing she isnt even there anymore). U.S Open she is a contender but not a favorite (Serena and Henin both being out made her more of a threat last year there than she is at this point). Australian Open she is just an outsider at this point. And French Open she is a nothing as far as contention goes now.

And she was not in the quarters of the French last year. She lost in easy straight sets to Nadia Petrova in the round of 16. A good showing though considering that is her only appearance in the round of 16 there since 2006 now.

jdubbs
01-20-2011, 12:59 PM
Uh guys, I closed my case, the jury has found in my favor and it's time to go home now.

:)

adidasman
01-20-2011, 01:01 PM
i don't know about all that. She is more than an outsider. Reached the 09 Wimby final, at LEAST the quarters of all 4 slams last year and was a hair from the US Open final. And she's at least a year older than she was when she did all those things. And playing worse, and in (from the look of it) worse shape. For a person who's never seemed to be motivated by history, what's the point? What's going to drive her to win? The sand in the hourglass? The need to beat baby sister? The opportunity to design more excreble tennis outfits? ;)

Andy Zarzuela
01-20-2011, 01:04 PM
Venus=Henin in terms of achievements.

Venus > Henin considering their h2h.

Henin>Venus when it comes to weeks at #1.

NadalAgassi
01-20-2011, 01:06 PM
Venus=Henin in terms of achievements.

Venus > Henin considering their h2h.

Henin>Venus when it comes to weeks at #1.

All the matches except 1 between Henin and Venus were before Henin won her first slam and while she was still owned badly by the likes of Davenport, Clijsters, and granny Seles too making their head to head meaningless. Their 2nd last match ever was Janauary 2003 believe it not (Henin won their only meeting since then in straight sets which was in 2007).

Anyway you concede they are at a similar level which makes a statement Venus and Serena have jointly dominated womens tennis over the last decade ridiculous. Especialy when if you remove Venus's 2000 (now over a decade ago) she would be far behind Henin. Two players that dominate the game are like Federer and Nadal or Graf and Seles, much better than all others, not someone who you debate vs someone else as 2nd best player of the era.

I dont even like Henin but she was the best player in the World (including Serena) from 2003-2007. So she in fact had more hand of dominating recent times than Venus who was only dominant back in 2000-2001 and at Wimbledon (when she avoids Serena) since then.

Joe Pike
01-20-2011, 01:15 PM
Ok, so 17 out of 40 is 43%.

Lets see how that stacks up:

1997-2008, Tiger Woods won 14 out of 44 (32%) grand slams and was considered the "dominant" golfer of that time.

2000-2010 New England Patriots won 3 out of 10 SB's (30%) and were considered dominant

1988 -2006 Michael Schumacher won 7 out of 18 (39%) World Championships and is considered the best Formula 1 car racer of all time.


So statistically, the Williams sisters have been more dominant than some of the greatest athletes of the new millenium.

Care to rethink your opinion?


Statistically Henin, Clijsters, Kuznetsova, Sharapova have been more dominant in 2003-2010 than the Williams sisters.

And Schumacher won 7 of 11 Formula 1 championships in 1994-2004.

Fedace
01-20-2011, 01:17 PM
I GOT it......That dress is from the MUGATO fall fashion show,,,,"DERELICT"