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View Full Version : 5 set matches a deal breaker for Fed


richied
01-19-2011, 03:18 PM
Feds first two sets were unstoppable, very few mistakes, crushing the ball, serving well! But, maintaining that high level against a player who can run down and make you hit so many extra balls is not easy. Obviously Nadal's added consistency makes it tough for Fed to win in a five set match. As much as I like Fed, Simon clearly showed that Fed will need to play an almost flawless match to beat Nadal (if they both get that far).

aceX
01-19-2011, 03:21 PM
yeah i reckon nadal would have had a decent chance to beat fed at wtf if it was best of 5

xanctus
01-20-2011, 12:24 AM
I agree...Nadal durability is amazing!

Sid_Vicious
01-20-2011, 12:28 AM
None of these claims are indubitable. Nadal was up 2 sets against Federer in the 2008 Wimbledon Final and looked unstoppable, but Federer clawed his way back and pushed it to a fifth set. This shows that Nadal isnt some perfect machine that people make him out to be. In the past 2 five setters they played, Federer was the one playing from the behind and making the comebacks. Fedal are dead even in 5 setters, but Nadal suceeds because he plays the most important points way better than Federer.

nadal_slam_king
01-20-2011, 01:05 AM
None of these claims are indubitable. Nadal was up 2 sets against Federer in the 2008 Wimbledon Final and looked unstoppable, but Federer clawed his way back and pushed it to a fifth set. This shows that Nadal isnt some perfect machine that people make him out to be. In the past 2 five setters they played, Federer was the one playing from the behind and making the comebacks. Fedal are dead even in 5 setters, but Nadal suceeds because he plays the most important points way better than Federer.

Well, there were no important points in the 5th set of their AO meeting, it was a complete white-wash. What went wrong for Federer that day? And he had 2 days off between SF and F, compared to Rafa's one day off, and of course the Verdasco 5 hour SF preceded that.

kOaMaster
01-20-2011, 03:06 AM
Well, there were no important points in the 5th set of their AO meeting, it was a complete white-wash. What went wrong for Federer that day? And he had 2 days off between SF and F, compared to Rafa's one day off, and of course the Verdasco 5 hour SF preceded that.

the two days off-thing isn't always good / is a non-factor if you look at the statistics (wasn't there one for the US Open?).

and I don't know what happened. but yeah, I can understand why nadal is better than many/most others in 5-setters. his normal game is already based on stamina, fighting, not giving up a point. this helps him the long a match goes.

federer on the other side is know for his "perfect" game. like what he showed vs simon in the first wo sets. I mean, come on, no one can beat this, not nadal, no one else on the tour. problem there: if he can't fix the match in the time he's on or if there are minor (or sometimes major) lapses, the harder it is for him to get back only through "fighting for the points". this is not what he is known for and not what he does the best/is most comfortable with on court.

I mean compare yesterday: he tried a drop shot in a rally on match point in the fifth set. who else does this kind of stuff? certainly not a "fighter". and yes, the dropshot ended veeeery close in the net, but still, it was the right thing to do for him.

nadal_slam_king
01-20-2011, 03:12 AM
the two days off-thing isn't always good / is a non-factor if you look at the statistics (wasn't there one for the US Open?).

and I don't know what happened. but yeah, I can understand why nadal is better than many/most others in 5-setters. his normal game is already based on stamina, fighting, not giving up a point. this helps him the long a match goes.

federer on the other side is know for his "perfect" game. like what he showed vs simon in the first wo sets. I mean, come on, no one can beat this, not nadal, no one else on the tour. problem there: if he can't fix the match in the time he's on or if there are minor (or sometimes major) lapses, the harder it is for him to get back only through "fighting for the points". this is not what he is known for and not what he does the best/is most comfortable with on court.

I mean compare yesterday: he tried a drop shot in a rally on match point in the fifth set. who else does this kind of stuff? certainly not a "fighter". and yes, the dropshot ended veeeery close in the net, but still, it was the right thing to do for him.

That was Simon's fault for hitting the ball so soft and short and without topspin (he doesn't seem to use topspin). Federer can only do what his opponent allows him to do, if that opponent has the game of course. Simon didn't have it, and Federer got his favorite balls to hit his favorite shots. It was like Del Potro vs Federer 2009 AO when Federer double-bagelled him. Del Potro played like crap and Federer took advantage.

Messarger
01-20-2011, 03:22 AM
if Federer plays an almost flawless match, he would beat anyone.

kOaMaster
01-20-2011, 03:24 AM
Federer can only do what his opponent allows him to do

the exact opposite is the case. yesterday was a perfect example for this.

the first two sets, almost everything went in, was on the line, just over the net etc.
simon didn't really do much too much wrong in the beginning. he had the best serving statistics from the whole match in the first set actually.

Messarger
01-20-2011, 03:25 AM
I mean compare yesterday: he tried a drop shot in a rally on match point in the fifth set. who else does this kind of stuff?

are you asking this as a serious question? because after reading that Novak Djokovic immediately sprang to my mind.

nadal_slam_king
01-20-2011, 03:26 AM
if Federer plays an almost flawless match, he would beat anyone.

It is impossible to hit a flawless ball if his opponent isn't giving him enough time or strike zone. It's still up to the opponent. That's why Federer never looks like this against Rafa.

Messarger
01-20-2011, 03:31 AM
It is impossible to hit a flawless ball if his opponent isn't giving him enough time or strike zone. It's still up to the opponent. That's why Federer never looks like this against Rafa.

But the reverse is also true innit. If Fed (or any player for that matter) isnt giving his opponent enough time to set up, it's impossible for them to hit a flawless balll, too. What i dont like is how some people think that the result of a match is decided by one player's performance.

kOaMaster
01-20-2011, 03:32 AM
are you asking this as a serious question? because after reading that Novak Djokovic immediately sprang to my mind.

yeah but in his case, I wouldn't say it is fitting his game nor it's a good idea :-?

or let's say I don't think it's his strength.

What i dont like is how some people think that the result of a match is decided by one player's performance.
Of course it takes two and tennis is a lot about matchups. On the other hand it's often one player trying to "make" the game, go for big shots, being agressive, taking the ball early etc. If all those "high risk" shots are in - well, there is not too much you can do except wait for his game to normalise again.

same is for the other side. you're attacking and going for all the points, thought you'd really hit some nice approaches but every single ball gets back, he reaches everything and you can't get through, no matter what you try.

I think most players, regardless of the level, have made this experience.

nadal_slam_king
01-20-2011, 03:49 AM
But the reverse is also true innit. If Fed (or any player for that matter) isnt giving his opponent enough time to set up, it's impossible for them to hit a flawless balll, too. What i dont like is how some people think that the result of a match is decided by one player's performance.

A player like Rafa has many ways of winning the point, he doesn't need the ball in his strike zone, he hits while stretched out wide, into the body, up high or down low. Federer whereas is prone to mistiming shots unless they are where he likes them. That's why Federer has so many matches where he's shanking the ball like crazy, while Rafa doesn't. And this applies to everyone, not just Federer. Rafa is the best in the world at hitting off-balance/out of position.

Messarger
01-20-2011, 03:57 AM
i am too lazy to reply. you guys continue from where you left off. treat my existence in this thread as a wet dream.

Applecider
01-20-2011, 03:57 AM
A player like Rafa has many ways of winning the point, he doesn't need the ball in his strike zone, he hits while stretched out wide, into the body, up high or down low. Federer whereas is prone to mistiming shots unless they are where he likes them. That's why Federer has so many matches where he's shanking the ball like crazy, while Rafa doesn't. And this applies to everyone, not just Federer. Rafa is the best in the world at hitting off-balance/out of position.

I think a 90inch vs 100 inch might be a small factor as well :)

kOaMaster
01-20-2011, 03:58 AM
i am too lazy to reply. you guys continue from where you left off. treat my existence in this thread as a wet dream.

I did response when I edited?

dandelion_smiley
01-20-2011, 04:03 AM
A player like Rafa has many ways of winning the point, he doesn't need the ball in his strike zone, he hits while stretched out wide, into the body, up high or down low. Federer whereas is prone to mistiming shots unless they are where he likes them. That's why Federer has so many matches where he's shanking the ball like crazy, while Rafa doesn't. And this applies to everyone, not just Federer. Rafa is the best in the world at hitting off-balance/out of position.

yes

he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand
he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand
he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand
he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand

did I forget something?

oh yes

he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand

when he decides to change his brilliant tactic and go for his opponent's forehand, he's running left and right and loses the point WHICH forces him to use his old tactic and that is...
hit a forehand to your opponent's backhand

dandelion_smiley
01-20-2011, 04:06 AM
A player like Rafa has many ways of winning the point, he doesn't need the ball in his strike zone, he hits while stretched out wide, into the body, up high or down low. Federer whereas is prone to mistiming shots unless they are where he likes them. That's why Federer has so many matches where he's shanking the ball like crazy, while Rafa doesn't. And this applies to everyone, not just Federer. Rafa is the best in the world at hitting off-balance/out of position.

Federer is more prone to mishitting a ball cause he's playing high risk tennis, if he played the way Nadal does, he'd have retired 2 years ago

nadal_slam_king
01-20-2011, 04:24 AM
I think a 90inch vs 100 inch might be a small factor as well :)

Maybe somebody needs a new racquet then to help reduce the errors. Or continue taking the big risks at their own peril.

aldeayeah
01-20-2011, 05:11 AM
yes

he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand
he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand
he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand
he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand

did I forget something?

oh yes

he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand

when he decides to change his brilliant tactic and go for his opponent's forehand, he's running left and right and loses the point WHICH forces him to use his old tactic and that is...
hit a forehand to your opponent's backhand
Exactly. That's why when he plays lefties such as Verdasco he doesn't know what to do.

Wait, what?

dandelion_smiley
01-20-2011, 05:20 AM
Exactly. That's why when he plays lefties such as Verdasco he doesn't know what to do.

Wait, what?

who was verdasco again?

Oh yes a player who is a combined 1-23 against Federer, Nadal and Murray.
Isn't he also Nadal's Davis Cup "mate"?

Cup8489
01-20-2011, 05:29 AM
A player like Rafa has many ways of winning the point, he doesn't need the ball in his strike zone, he hits while stretched out wide, into the body, up high or down low. Federer whereas is prone to mistiming shots unless they are where he likes them. That's why Federer has so many matches where he's shanking the ball like crazy, while Rafa doesn't. And this applies to everyone, not just Federer. Rafa is the best in the world at hitting off-balance/out of position.

Wait, what? Federer, the best there is at absorbing pace and improvising shots when out of position, can't hit a ball outside of his comfort zone? What?

And Federer can look flawless against Nadal (see Wimbledon matches between the two, Federer rarely plays like crap.) it's just that Nadal is much better at weathering the storm than most other players. In the Wimbledon 2008 final, Federer briefly went into God mode in the 2nd set, not missing anything and taking Nadal's racquet completely out of his hand. Nadal, unlike most everyone else (except Simon, for instance) didnt panic, and just held on long enough to be able to raise his own level to get the break back, and then close the set out.

You haven't been watching tennis very long, have you? The 'experts' on almost every channel comment on the fact that Federer can hit the ball comfortably from almost any position. Sure, his shot selection isn't always the greatest depending on the shot, but he is very good at hitting the ball accurately when caught late. Nadal never stands as close up on the baseline as Federer, doesn't get ontop of the ball as quickly as Federer when being offensive, and thus isn't hitting the ball as soon after the bounce as Federer. These are the facts, and is the reason Federer shanks more than Nadal.

Not because Federer can't hit outside of a specific little window like you seem to imply.. That's not the case.

8PAQ
01-20-2011, 05:30 AM
yes

he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand
he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand
he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand
he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand

did I forget something?

oh yes

he can hit his forehand to the opponent backhand

when he decides to change his brilliant tactic and go for his opponent's forehand, he's running left and right and loses the point WHICH forces him to use his old tactic and that is...
hit a forehand to your opponent's backhand

He can also time delay and OCD like no other.

Cup8489
01-20-2011, 05:32 AM
Exactly. That's why when he plays lefties such as Verdasco he doesn't know what to do.

Wait, what?

Verdasco is a terrible example. He's scared to death of Nadal, he always has a wild eyed look on his face. Verdasco is to Nadal what Roddick is to Federer: his whipping boy.

Cup8489
01-20-2011, 05:32 AM
He can also time delay and OCD like no other.

Win.

10buttpicks

Markov
01-20-2011, 05:44 AM
Well, there were no important points in the 5th set of their AO meeting, it was a complete white-wash. What went wrong for Federer that day? And he had 2 days off between SF and F, compared to Rafa's one day off, and of course the Verdasco 5 hour SF preceded that.

Yeah, the fifth set was total domination, but in some of the other sets Nadal's ability to win the most important points gave him the edge. Especially in the third set, where Fed had double and triple break points on multiple occasions, yet he failed to break and made a truckload of unforced errors.

joeri888
01-20-2011, 05:58 AM
if Federer plays an almost flawless match, he would beat anyone.

On a hard or grasscourt, I agree with that. Though some players might not LET him play almost flawless..

nadal_slam_king
01-20-2011, 06:03 AM
Yeah, the fifth set was total domination, but in some of the other sets Nadal's ability to win the most important points gave him the edge. Especially in the third set, where Fed had double and triple break points on multiple occasions, yet he failed to break and made a truckload of unforced errors.

Yeah that AO 09 fifth set was very similar to the USO 09 fifth set between Federer and Del Potro. Federer collapsed 2-6. But it's true he has got a horrible breakpoint conversion rate.

I think Federer is basically not mentally tough compared to guys like Nadal and Sampras. It's not Federer's biggest quality. He doesn't have to play a 5th set in GS Finals often though, except for that Wimbledon 09 vs Roddick and the Finals vs Rafa and that USO vs Del Potro.

nadal_slam_king
01-20-2011, 06:06 AM
Wait, what? Federer, the best there is at absorbing pace and improvising shots when out of position, can't hit a ball outside of his comfort zone? What?

And Federer can look flawless against Nadal (see Wimbledon matches between the two, Federer rarely plays like crap.) it's just that Nadal is much better at weathering the storm than most other players. In the Wimbledon 2008 final, Federer briefly went into God mode in the 2nd set, not missing anything and taking Nadal's racquet completely out of his hand. Nadal, unlike most everyone else (except Simon, for instance) didnt panic, and just held on long enough to be able to raise his own level to get the break back, and then close the set out.

You haven't been watching tennis very long, have you? The 'experts' on almost every channel comment on the fact that Federer can hit the ball comfortably from almost any position. Sure, his shot selection isn't always the greatest depending on the shot, but he is very good at hitting the ball accurately when caught late. Nadal never stands as close up on the baseline as Federer, doesn't get ontop of the ball as quickly as Federer when being offensive, and thus isn't hitting the ball as soon after the bounce as Federer. These are the facts, and is the reason Federer shanks more than Nadal.

Not because Federer can't hit outside of a specific little window like you seem to imply.. That's not the case.

I've been watching Federer live and die by the unforced error for some time now. He even earned the nickname from some fans '********'. I crave for the 1980s and 90s level tennis to return. Back then players were a lot more stingy with their unforced errors. These days, Rafa is the only player with that level of discipline.

Cup8489
01-20-2011, 06:20 AM
I've been watching Federer live and die by the unforced error for some time now. He even earned the nickname from some fans '********'. I crave for the 1980s and 90s level tennis to return. Back then players were a lot more stingy with their unforced errors. These days, Rafa is the only player with that level of discipline.

So basically u haven't seen federer from 2004-2007, where he rarely suffered shank fests... Good to know.

nadal_slam_king
01-20-2011, 06:27 AM
So basically u haven't seen federer from 2004-2007, where he rarely suffered shank fests... Good to know.

I'm just not living in the past.

Cup8489
01-20-2011, 08:45 AM
I'm just not living in the past.

Not living in the present, either, for that matter.
Federer does shank here and there but it doesnt generally decide the match..

and Nadal isn't the greatest ever, either. for that matter.

Nor is he the slam king.

Omega_7000
01-20-2011, 10:07 AM
I'm just not living in the past.

I crave for the 1980s and 90s level tennis to return. Back then players were a lot more stingy with their unforced errors. These days, Rafa is the only player with that level of discipline.


Errr Ok.......:-?