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View Full Version : kick server = slow/high topspin server?


highsierra
06-13-2005, 02:36 PM
The discussion on what servers you hit in another thread confused me a bit. I thought kick server is basically slow/high topspin server. Correct?

Jonnyf
06-13-2005, 02:37 PM
i thought Kick was topspin

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 02:41 PM
A kickserve can be any serve that kicks up.. with some type of topspin or twist spin

I have a variety of kickserves:

-hard kicker that really penetrates the court
-off pace kicker that goes out wide
-twisting kicker
-high bouncing kicker

and any combination of these works too

Jonnyf
06-13-2005, 02:42 PM
ooh yeah there is American Twist (probs just Twist over in the US of A)

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 02:43 PM
Yeh could you actually describe these serves, i mean "off pace kicker", "twisting kicker"??? So uhhh what are they/ what do they look like?

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 02:48 PM
Yeh could you actually describe these serves, i mean "off pace kicker", "twisting kicker"??? So uhhh what are they/ what do they look like?

The twist kicker is a ball that looks like a slice and then kicks to the opponents backhand. From the point of view of the server it curves from left to right to left, and then kicks to the right.

An off pace kicker is something you do as a changeup after hitting lots of hard kickres.. The opponent is expecting a shoulder height ball but you take off all the pace and just add spin, throw it out wide and they'll probably mistime the ball.

The hard kicker is really hit more like a flat serve but you still have the same brushing motion causing the ball to penetrate and still bounce high.

The high bouncing kicker is the one that goes over 6 foot.. if the opponent doesn't catch it early they'll have to back up or hit it on the rise.. tough to go agressive if hittin on the rise.

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 02:52 PM
That Twist Kicker is still doing my head in..............

but I hate playing high bouncing kickers, my friend has one, he's 6'4ish and his kick serve goes up to my shoulder............WHEN I'M JUMPING, but he also hits it at like 100mph so i can't take it on the rise.................not good enough reactions........

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 02:56 PM
I'd agree with everything in your (TwistServe's) post except it being
hard to go aggressive when on the rise.

Hitting it on the rise is BEING aggressive. It transfers more momentum
and pace from the shot, making it have just as much or more pace
than usual.

Hitting it later is not being aggressive. You can hit it hard still in normal
situations, that's what most people are used to. But on those huge,
high bouncing kick serves, the most aggressive thing you can do is hit
it on the rise.

It's harder, and requires better timing. Shorter backswing as well. But
if you're used to it, you'll always be on the offensive, even on moonballs
and the kick serves, as applied here.

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 02:56 PM
That Twist Kicker is still doing my head in..............

but I hate playing high bouncing kickers, my friend has one, he's 6'4ish and his kick serve goes up to my shoulder............WHEN I'M JUMPING, but he also hits it at like 100mph so i can't take it on the rise.................not good enough reactions........

These serves are actually pretty easy to return if you get it right off the bounce. I used to think it was tough till one day I had my coach hit my kickers over and over and over. Step into the court, split step as he about to serve, and then move forward. Short backswing and then push the ball back just as it comes off the ground. When I mean step into the court, i mean almost to the service line. The closer you get the less angles you'll have to cover, and also the ball won't be very high.

When they change the speed of the kickers is when it gets tricky to time the on the rise hit.

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 02:58 PM
Hitting it on the rise is BEING aggressive. It transfers more momentum
and pace from the shot, making it have just as much or more pace
than usual.


Not really. You can be neutral and still take balls on the rise without attacking. When I mean attacking, I'm talking about how Gasquet takes the ball on the rise and smacks it back for a winner. YOU ARENT GOING TO HIT A WINNER BY BLOCKING THE BALL BACK ON THE RISE! PERIOD!

Theres a difference between taking the ball on the rise with a neutral intent, and being agressive on the rise.

Kana Himezaki
06-13-2005, 03:02 PM
Who said you were blocking the ball?

And who said waiting until the ball rose was more aggressive?

You CAN take balls on the rise without attacking, but it's pointless. You don't block a high bouncing ball back, you shorten the backswing, move in early, and take a cut at the ball.

If you're planning on taking the ball on the rise, you're not aiming for neutral intent. If you want to simply block the ball back and start the point, why would you bother taking it early anyway?

You simply don't block the ball.

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 03:05 PM
If you're planning on taking the ball on the rise, you're not aiming for neutral intent. If you want to simply block the ball back and start the point, why would you bother taking it early anyway?


The reason you take it on the rise and slice/block it back is to prevent the ball from getting to high and uncontrolable. Trust me I get about 90% returns back and work the point easily. If you let it bounce and get too high you're screwed.. Or you're so far back from the baseline your opponent can just rush the net and end the point. You're aggressive with your footwork but neutral with your stroke.

You simply do not have the experience or diversity to aruge with me and I don't want this thread getting back to "no you cant yes I can, i have an 760 sat score in 7th grade".. that isn't fair to the original poster.

Meat
06-13-2005, 03:09 PM
Um...excuse me if I'm getting into something I don't know about, but werent you the one who was posting about writing skills and everything? Was she supposed to stay silent?

As for the topic, I dunno on blocking it back, lol. If you want to take it early and add on some of the risk, you might as well attack. Anyone can block it back when it gets higher.

Plus, I believe the high bouncing stuff doesn't have that much pace like you said, just helluva lot of spin. Blocking works because you're using the pace from the serve, right? You're not getting the pace. You'll probably create a floater or easy ball to attack unless you take the cut at the ball.

I think, heh. I dunno on the technical stuff, correct me?

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 03:10 PM
OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK OK Now I'M SORRY I'VE GOT THIS BACK INTO A DEBATE.....OH GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE??????????

These serves are actually pretty easy to return if you get it right off the bounce. I used to think it was tough till one day I had my coach hit my kickers over and over and over. Step into the court, split step as he about to serve, and then move forward. Short backswing and then push the ball back just as it comes off the ground. When I mean step into the court, i mean almost to the service line. The closer you get the less angles you'll have to cover, and also the ball won't be very high.

When they change the speed of the kickers is when it gets tricky to time the on the rise hitp

HAHAHA Easy for you to say..............I tried that when I played him..........ball got jammed into my body, I can tell you I wasn't eager to try that again :).........................I guess I'll have to grow more :)

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 03:11 PM
Um...excuse me if I'm getting into something I don't know about, but werent you the one who was posting about writing skills and everything? Was she supposed to stay silent?

As for the topic, I dunno on blocking it back, lol. If you want to take it early and add on some of the risk, you might as well attack. Anyone can block it back when it gets higher.

Plus, I believe the high bouncing stuff doesn't have that much pace like you said, just helluva lot of spin. Blocking works because you're using the pace from the serve, right? You're not getting the pace. You'll probably create a floater or easy ball to attack unless you take the cut at the ball.

I think, heh. I dunno on the technical stuff, correct me?

Very difficult to control a kickserve when it gets too high.. Try blocking them back.. Flat serves are easy to block back.. Block back a kickserve at shoulder level and it'll float.. Bloack back a kickserve just as it comes off the bounce and you can use the pace of the ball to send it back.. or just slice it.

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 03:14 PM
Who said you were blocking the ball?

And who said waiting until the ball rose was more aggressive?

You CAN take balls on the rise without attacking, but it's pointless. You don't block a high bouncing ball back, you shorten the backswing, move in early, and take a cut at the ball.

If you're planning on taking the ball on the rise, you're not aiming for neutral intent. If you want to simply block the ball back and start the point, why would you bother taking it early anyway?

You simply don't block the ball.

Kana,

I agree with you that you can attack a ball by taking it on the rise but it is not the complete story of doing it.

Taking the ball on the rise is about hitting the ball when it is in the strike zone of the grip you are using for clean contact and the use of your "normal" or "abbreviated "stroke. Usually it is a relaxed stroke that has a rather flat path through the ball.

So you do not have to be in an attacking mode to take the ball on the rise. Although this does occur, it is not the only way or reason to take the ball on the rise.

You can block the ball back with excellent pace and placement by letting it rise into the strike zone (taking it on the rise) and placing your strings on the ball. This also puts pressure on your opponent because by doing this you reduce the time a player has a chance to prepare for their reply.

So, taking the ball on the rise and or blocking the ball back in this way is still a way to take control of the point.

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 03:17 PM
Kana,

I agree with you that you can attack a ball by taking it on the rise but it is not the complete story of doing it.

Taking the ball on the rise is about hitting the ball when it is in the strike zone of the grip you are using for clean contact and the use of your "normal" stroke.

So you do not have to be in an attacking mode to take the ball on the rise. Although this does occur, it is not the only way or reason to take the ball on the rise.

You can block the ball back with excellent pace and placement by letting it rise into the strike zone (taking it on the rise) and placing your strings on the ball. This also puts pressure on your opponent because by doing this you reduce the time a player has a chance to prepare for their reply.

So, taking the ball on the rise and or blocking the ball back in this way is still a way to take control of the point.

Thank you BB... Again...

Why do I always look like the bad guy when i'm trying to prove a point that is pretty much correct? I know guys simpatize with a 15 yr old girl thats so sweet but c'mon..!

I know kana will not admit shes wrong too.

Meat
06-13-2005, 03:20 PM
Um, pardon me if I'm interrupting again, but was she still wrong?

She was right for the most part. And blocking loses some of it's effect when you're working on a topspin serve.

You can keep it deep, but you're definitely not going to start the point on the offensive.

Btw, it's "sympathize". :D LOL, sorry haha, I'm in a family of English teachers.

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 03:23 PM
Well Meat its actually SYMPATHISE :) LOL sorry haha I come from the UK where this language was BORN so I'm Right:)

But Twisty admit that kana was right aswell if only a bit.........now kiss and make up ok, I'm not gonna have you two debating stuff ALL OVER AGAIN..............

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 03:24 PM
Um, pardon me if I'm interrupting again, but was she still wrong?

She was right for the most part. And blocking loses some of it's effect when you're working on a topspin serve.

You can keep it deep, but you're definitely not going to start the point on the offensive.

Btw, it's "sympathize". :D LOL, sorry haha, I'm in a family of English teachers.

Kana said it was pointless to block back a ball on the rise. As BB explains, it is not pointless, but moreover its a way to control the point from the return. You can get excellent pace and its so much easier to time you'll almost always return the ball which is key. Taking "a cut" at the ball, as kana suggest, is too agressive and you'll lose more points than not. To hit an outright winner is going to be difficult as well. The return values on that are deminished.

I kinda guessed sympathize was spelled wrong but I didn't care to spellcheck it :)

TwistServe
06-13-2005, 03:26 PM
But Twisty admit that kana was right aswell if only a bit.........now kiss and make up ok, I'm not gonna have you two debating stuff ALL OVER AGAIN..............

I never said you can't be agressive taking the ball on the rise. That will take added timing and skills. I merely said I like to block the ball on the rise and was interupted with Kana's "no thats pointless" debate.

Prince_of_Tennis
06-13-2005, 03:26 PM
but he also hits it at like 100mph so i can't take it on the rise.................not good enough reactions........

wow is he a pro thats fast...

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 03:28 PM
nope.............he's 6'4ish and bombs his first serve down..................bloody hard to return.....................

Meat
06-13-2005, 03:30 PM
Thanks for the response. Haha, don't worry about the spelling, I
might just have had something up my _fill_in_the_blank_.

It's easier to time, but that's what the shorter backswing is for.
You won't get the pace because the high bouncing ball is all
spin, and you have nothing to work with. You WILL get some
pop from hitting the sweetspot, but I don't think you can
control the point as you've been saying.

For me, taking a cut at the ball just means pushing through like
normal. She probably just meant that you'll at least want to
push through the ball.

I have to do this because I have this finesse/aggressive
"pusher" (if that's possible) game. You can read about it in the
other thread. Since if I don't get the return in a good position
with enough pace or spin to attack or at least neutralize the
point, I have a good chance of losing and not being able
to work the ball.

So I find the shorter backswing and pushing through (or an
abbreviated windshield wiper motion) works for me.

DAMN, this is long. At least when I'm writing. I'm shortening
off each line, so it's really probably a lot shorter.

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 03:35 PM
actually twisty, no offence but when i block on the rise, it goes highish and not very long..............since he S&Vs (forgot to mention that) he gets a nice putaway...*sigh* back to practicing for me............

Prince_of_Tennis
06-13-2005, 03:38 PM
actually twisty, no offence but when i block on the rise, it goes highish and not very long..............since he S&Vs (forgot to mention that) he gets a nice putaway...*sigh* back to practicing for me............
Then you doing something wrong :(

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 03:40 PM
yep thats why i need to go back to practising............but then i'm always so late in getting there it kinda fails me and now i don't even know what i'm on about so i'll stop there :)

Meat
06-13-2005, 03:41 PM
Might be because when you go on the rise, you're already forced into some knee bend. So you get natural lift off the court.

But when you're trying to block, you're generally holding the racquet back. So your body's lifting...and your racquet doesn't go with it. The ball goes high.

I think (haven't checked, theoretical) that moving on the rise forces some followthrough and slight "cut" at the ball. This might be the sort of block
TwistServe's talkin about. I don't like the idea of blocking on the rise, but I
don't think you should go all out aggressive on it. I'm neutral?

I usually push out through the ball, enough to get the depth
and moderate pace. I slice it most of the time.

...correct me?

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 03:47 PM
I usually try to do what you do meat and it sometimes pays off, not very consistently though, however i don't slice it............my slice BH is like the most inconsistent shot i have (actually its the serve but anyways.......... it verys inconsistent)

Meat
06-13-2005, 03:58 PM
Sorry if it's confusing. When I'm aiming for depth or less spin, I'll push through it.

Might work to try a chip though. So slight underspin, and it comes naturally from having your racquet above move in under the ball. Then I try to aim the slight underspin down the line, and move up to the net.

That's easier for me to do than a lot of other returns, and I can use touch and whatever else at net. Of course, if your chip is angled the wrong way or is extremely attackable, you'll want to move back. No sense in being passed at the net when you have a chance of getting it at the baseline (more time).

Keep in mind with the chip thing you're just trying to get under the ball and slightly through. Even people with bad slices can do this when they simply think of getting under the ball and through a little bit.

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 05:08 PM
Kana said it was pointless to block back a ball on the rise. As BB explains, it is not pointless, but moreover its a way to control the point from the return. You can get excellent pace and its so much easier to time you'll almost always return the ball which is key. Taking "a cut" at the ball, as kana suggest, is too agressive and you'll lose more points than not. To hit an outright winner is going to be difficult as well. The return values on that are deminished.

I kinda guessed sympathize was spelled wrong but I didn't care to spellcheck it :)

Actually you did spell it right.

Rogetís II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition. 1995.

Sympathize

VERB: 1. To experience or express compassion: ache, commiserate, compassionate, feel, pity, yearn. Idioms: be sorry, have (or take) pity. See PITY. 2. To associate or affiliate oneself closely with a person or group: empathize, identify, relate. See SAME. 3. To understand or be sensitive to another's feelings or ideas: empathize. See UNDERSTAND

The problem with the Brits is they fail to see their whole system needs an overhaul and we (Americans) have continued to perfect the english language.

Heck, they even drive on the wrong side of the road! ;) lol

Bungalo Bill
06-13-2005, 05:11 PM
Thank you BB... Again...

Why do I always look like the bad guy when i'm trying to prove a point that is pretty much correct? I know guys simpatize with a 15 yr old girl thats so sweet but c'mon..!

I know kana will not admit shes wrong too.

Yeah Kana wasnt wrong but she also didn't explain the rest of the story. When you take it on the rise it is a more or less flat stroke. The punch shot or block goes hand in hand.

Meat
06-13-2005, 05:16 PM
I think she was simply confused about the term "block". I can't speak for her, but what I use, and what I'm sure she probably meant by taking a "cut", was at least simply pushing THROUGH the ball a bit. Some of the followthrough.

So she probably would've agreed with punch shot, and took the term "block" more literally in simply holding the racquet there.

Return_Ace
06-13-2005, 11:29 PM
The problem with the Brits is they fail to see their whole system needs an overhaul and we (Americans) have continued to perfect the english language.

Heck, they even drive on the wrong side of the road! lol

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHA......Americans perfecting OUR language......HAHHAAHAHAHAHAHA, Oh and FYI we are actually driving on the RIGHT (thats right as in correct) side of the road, and you're the ones driving on the wrong side of the road :)
Just Lemme laugh at that quote again ......................HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA........ .............HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

OK Thanks For Your Help

PS: No Offence Intended......................=p

Tennis Ball Hitter
06-14-2005, 12:34 AM
twistserve, what is the net clearence on your kickers? in particluar the "hard kicker that really penetrates the court" and the "high bouncing kicker".

And for your "off pace kicker that goes out wide" are you talking the corner or half way up the box?

AND do you have any tips to generate the "twist" and how not to ... sometimes I serve kickers and they do the "twist" but I don't seem to have any control as to when it happens.

and finally ... down here in Australia we play a doubles then a singles. New balls at the start of the doubles and then we use the used double balls for singles. My kick serve in doubles is GREAT, I rarely lose a service game becasue my kick serve kicks high enough to cause trouble for the returner, usually giving my partner the easy smash/put-away.

But in my singles the older balls don't bounce so high ... in effect meaning my kick serve is less of a weapon. Have any tips for this problem?

Mr wontong 007
06-14-2005, 07:04 AM
the twist kicker sounds like the american twist

krnboijunsung
06-14-2005, 07:31 AM
lol hey ernest

TwistServe
06-14-2005, 08:15 AM
twistserve, what is the net clearence on your kickers? in particluar the "hard kicker that really penetrates the court" and the "high bouncing kicker".

And for your "off pace kicker that goes out wide" are you talking the corner or half way up the box?

AND do you have any tips to generate the "twist" and how not to ... sometimes I serve kickers and they do the "twist" but I don't seem to have any control as to when it happens.

and finally ... down here in Australia we play a doubles then a singles. New balls at the start of the doubles and then we use the used double balls for singles. My kick serve in doubles is GREAT, I rarely lose a service game becasue my kick serve kicks high enough to cause trouble for the returner, usually giving my partner the easy smash/put-away.

But in my singles the older balls don't bounce so high ... in effect meaning my kick serve is less of a weapon. Have any tips for this problem?

My hard kicker will usually clear the net by 1 or 2 feet while my high bouncing kicker will clear the net by 3-5 feet. Even though the net clearance is a lot different, sometimes my hard kicker will kick just as high as the high bouncing one.. the difference is the penetration on the hard kicker will hit the back fence on the first bounce.

The off pace kicker is a short angle kick serve and can goes out wide half way up the box.

As for twist.. you get more twist by brushing from left to right more while still going up.. you get less twist by going going straight up. You also get more twist by using a backhand grip, and less twist by using continental grip.. (generally speaking)

If the balls you play your singles is old, I would pop open a new can and suggest to your opponent you hit with those instead. I think the difference with new balls and old balls is the pace that comes off your racquet. The spin and bounce off a kickserve will be marginal, but the kickserve won't penerate as much.

takeuchi
06-14-2005, 05:22 PM
hey twistserve, just wondering what grip you hit all your kick serves with. i just changed my grip to continental from eastern bh and my kick serves actually kick now. It seems i wasn't able to pronate very much with eastern bh.