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Orson Welles
06-15-2005, 05:46 PM
I can hit a pretty solid inside-out forehand for a 4.5/5.0 player; however, I have come across a handful of players who have a particularly wicked version of this shot that actually has some sidespin on it and bounces away from the opponent. This shot is not only very hard to reach, but even when you reach it, it is virtually impossible to return with any offense. It's also an awesome shot to come to net behind. Some players can hit this shot from almost any location and build their entire game around it.

Can anyone explain to me how they hit this shot? Hopefully Bungalo Bill and others get this message. Thank you in advance for any advice you can give me into how to hit this shot.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 05:53 PM
An inside-out forehand by definition has sidespin because you're going from the inside and then hitting the outside of the ball. For a right handed player it shoudl curve from left to right to left..

Many players think that running around your backhand and hitting your forehand is the "inside-out" forehand.. It could just be an inside-in forehand.

Orson Welles
06-15-2005, 06:14 PM
Thanks for your quick reply TwistServe, but I think you misunderstood me. I realize that an inside-out forehand is running around your backhand and hitting it diagonally to your opponent's backhand (assuming that you are both righthanded). I also understand that hitting that same shot straight forward to the opponents forehand corner is called an "inside-in". I also realize that just about any "inside-out" forehand will probably have some sidespin, but actually most of them have very little sidespin and are simply a shot that is moving diagonally with mostly topspin and very little sidespin.

I'm talking about one that has a pretty vicious sidespin that almost squirts off the racket and really slides or jumps a little bit to the left of the opponent after the bounce. I'm talking about a ball that jumps more to the left of the opponent than the natural diagonal flight trajectory of the ball. The problem I have when I try to execute this shot is that I will sometimes hit too much sidespin and I lose control and it often goes wide, or it just has moderate sidespin and the ball goes in a pretty similar trajectory after the bounce as it's flight path.

Perhaps you've never played an opponent like this because if you had, you would remember it. This shot is a real bitc* and it's often a clean winner or it is usually at least virtually unreturnable because it really spins away from you after the bounce more than its flight path is already moving away from you.

Any advice?

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 06:20 PM
You can hit an inside out forehand DTL or crosscourt. You have to take the outside of the ball which will cause the sidespin. Other than that I don't see any other type of sidespin. Maybe I have to see what you're talking about.

newshound
06-15-2005, 06:24 PM
I know what you're talking about only too well. My coach does it all the time. When he hits a forehand to me... I have to lunge wide to return it, as it jumps to the right. When he hits a backhand to me, it curls into my body, jamming me. He's got a funky follow-thru. His arm wraps across and down in front of his body, rather than over his shoulder. More of a window- washer look. Does this help?

Phil Daddario
06-15-2005, 06:36 PM
This sounds EXTREMELY interesting. That "Meat" guy probably uses it. He also needs a better username. :D Just kidding, Meat, wherever you are.

If they want the sidespin you're talking about, during their stroke they brush around and up on the left side (in this case, inside) of the ball. So, during the stroke, as you're moving (backpedaling, whatever) to be able to hit your forehand, your racquet at around contact has to be brushing up and AROUND the ball.

I think "normal" inside-out forehands involve flat to moderate topspin in which you're just pushing through the ball. The sidespin requires the "window-washer" thing newshound described as you're brushing up and across the left side.

I'm sorry if not making sense, I picked up my racquet and tested the racquet path. It seems logical. Just pick up a racquet and try to swing in a way that brushes up and around the left side of the ball.

Newshound - By any chance, would you be able to ask your coach to sort of demonstrate how he gets the effect? Sorry if it's causing any problems, I'm just curious. :)

Orson Welles
06-15-2005, 06:44 PM
First of all, don't you mean that you must hit the INSIDE of the ball? If you hit the OUTSIDE of the ball, it will hook cross court and angled crosscourt. Second of all, I know how to hit a regular sidespin shot, but this is usually a worthless trick shot that has little pace or spin. Most people who hit a shot with sidespin don't hit a winner with that shot or a shot that really hurts the opponent. You've probably seen the pros hit an inside out forehand that is very aggressive and hard and it not only has a good angle (often landing near the service line), but it tends to have sidespin and flies off the court often a clearn winner. Jim Courier was famous for his wicked inside-out forehand, but not every one that he hit flew off the court with sidespin for a virtual winner. Perhaps if you focussed on some of Courier's best inside-out forehands, the ones that are particularly wicked, then you'll understand what I mean.

If you compare Courier's best inside-out forehands to a lot of other top players who also have powerful forehands like James Blake or Fernando Gonzales, Safin or even Agassi or Federerer, you'll understand the difference. These guys can all hit an inside-out forehand, but not with the same bite, spin and effectiveness as Courrier. Courrier could control the entire match with his inside-out forehand and just take control over almost every point once he hit it in a rally. The other greats that I mentioned above rarely hit the shot like he did. Now I realize that Courrier's backhand was a relative piece or crap compared to these other players and that's a primary reason he didn't have longevity, but if one could develop this shot and had no other weaknesses, then the ski is the limit.

Do you think you understand what I'm trying to describe now?

P.S. Let's try to avoid a semantic debate because then we won't get anywhere. I don't think most people define an inside-out forehand as having sidespin per se. When most people say "hit it inside-out" they're usually talking about direction such as a forehand from the hitters left corner of the court to the opponent's left side of the court and Right to right diagonal for someone hitting a backhand from his right side to the opponent's right side. Or they simply mean hitting it diagonally in that direction. Not once have I heard or read a tennis instructor discuss sidespin on a inside-out shot although I agree with you that the most effective ones have sidespin and that's my point.

I do appreciate your help and your effots and hope I don't come off as too annoyed.

Orson Welles
06-15-2005, 06:49 PM
Just to avoid any confusion, my last response was to TwistServe's last message and not Newshound nor Phil Dadarrio.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 06:52 PM
You can hit outside of the ball at any direction... DTL or crosscourt. Usually its easier to do this so that the ball moves to the duece court.

Watch when pros go DTL, the ball is sometimes actually outside of the line and should be called out.. It hooks back in at the last minute and is a good play.

When you really go on the outside of the ball but starting in the center, you can put a lot of sidespin to cause the ball to hook by a great amount.

View this thread: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=55446

Meat
06-15-2005, 07:09 PM
TwistServe, you are thinking of a normal reverse forehand, in which you are brushing around the OPPOSITE side of the ball from what Orson is talking about.

You simply have the wrong point. This is on inside-out forehands, I find Phil's post more appropriate. You are thinking of the "reverse" forehand in which the racquet starts and finishes on the same side. You get slight topspin from "hooking" the outside of the ball.

In order to get the ball to "fly away" from people, it's the exact opposite. After the bounce, you want the ball to jump away OFF the court. Which requires brushing up on the "inside" of the ball when you're on the inside and doing an "inside-out" forehand.

What you said is true, but not applicable in this situation.

I've been able to achieve some results and the sidespin achieved by following pretty much what was said in Phil's post. As you're brushing up the ball, just try to brush up the left side (inside) of the ball at the same time. Sorry for this poor explanation as well, I'm not sure exactly how to describe it.

Why mine aren't weapons is because of my physical limitations. My muscles and etc. simply can't or do not take well to whacking the ball and hitting with pace. So I'm forced to use spin. I DO have the inside-out forehand you're talking about, but it's not nearly as devastating as it could be because it's hard for me to load the ball with pace.

enk
06-15-2005, 07:36 PM
Phil is right.

Instead of brushing up directly befind the ball, you'll need to brush up the left side of the ball (for right hander).

And because you want to hit the left side of the ball, you would have to position youself slightly further to the left.

The best way to learn this is to go out and experiment. Try to 'find' the left side of the ball first and gradually add more pace when you get it.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 08:02 PM
TwistServe, you are thinking of a normal reverse forehand, in which you are brushing around the OPPOSITE side of the ball from what Orson is talking about.

You simply have the wrong point. This is on inside-out forehands, I find Phil's post more appropriate. You are thinking of the "reverse" forehand in which the racquet starts and finishes on the same side. You get slight topspin from "hooking" the outside of the ball.

In order to get the ball to "fly away" from people, it's the exact opposite. After the bounce, you want the ball to jump away OFF the court. Which requires brushing up on the "inside" of the ball when you're on the inside and doing an "inside-out" forehand.

What you said is true, but not applicable in this situation.

I've been able to achieve some results and the sidespin achieved by following pretty much what was said in Phil's post. As you're brushing up the ball, just try to brush up the left side (inside) of the ball at the same time. Sorry for this poor explanation as well, I'm not sure exactly how to describe it.

Why mine aren't weapons is because of my physical limitations. My muscles and etc. simply can't or do not take well to whacking the ball and hitting with pace. So I'm forced to use spin. I DO have the inside-out forehand you're talking about, but it's not nearly as devastating as it could be because it's hard for me to load the ball with pace.

I dont know what a reverse forehand and I don't think there is a such terminology.

Refer to Marius Hancu's post #4 from here regarding a question asked if the reverse forehnad is the same as hitting DTL while going outside of the ball:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=55446

Definitely not.

On any FH, provides better control on DTL.

Graf was using this on her DTL topspin backhand.


This is actually called hitting on the outside of the ball.. How do you do it when you're on ad court and aiming to the ad court (assuming right handers)?.. You start from the inside obviously or it'll go crosscourt. Whatever you want to call it, reverse forehand, hitting outside, hittin inside-out.. Yous till have to brush the outside and aim to the ad court.

Who knows maybe I'm wrong. Like I said, I'd have to see it to know what's being talked about.

Rickson
06-15-2005, 08:12 PM
My second favorite shot after the crosscourt forehand is the inside out. Just blade your body, aim for the ad court (if you're a righty of course), and you'll get a natural sidespin as long as you're not trying too hard to topspin the ball.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 08:13 PM
Which requires brushing up on the "inside" of the ball when you're on the inside and doing an "inside-out" forehand.


Also notice my very first post.. I already mentioned all this:

Refer to post #2:
An inside-out forehand by definition has sidespin because you're going from the inside and then hitting the outside of the ball.

--added comment for clarification
When you start from the inside and then go to the outside, you create a sidespin but you're also putting some topspin too.

Meat
06-15-2005, 08:19 PM
It ALSO does not come completely NATURALLY. Just because your hitting it on the inside does NOT mean you're brushing around the side.

Wonder why you didn't exactly know what he was talking about, and mistook it for the other sidespin on a reverse forehand?

Exactly. You don't naturally brush around the side. You are hitting through the inside of the ball (or outside, if you think not relative to yourself). While that DOES produce the crosscourt ball, it does not naturally produce sidespin.

You have to force yourself to brush around the outside more. Another reason why many pros with inside out forehands have little to no sidespin on them.

I think it's just another mistake in your understanding. If it came naturally with hitting the ball crosscourt, the poster also wouldn't bother asking how.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 08:34 PM
It ALSO does not come completely NATURALLY. Just because your hitting it on the inside does NOT mean you're brushing around the side.

Wonder why you didn't exactly know what he was talking about, and mistook it for the other sidespin on a reverse forehand?

Exactly. You don't naturally brush around the side. You are hitting through the inside of the ball (or outside, if you think not relative to yourself). While that DOES produce the crosscourt ball, it does not naturally produce sidespin.

You have to force yourself to brush around the outside more. Another reason why many pros with inside out forehands have little to no sidespin on them.

I think it's just another mistake in your understanding. If it came naturally with hitting the ball crosscourt, the poster also wouldn't bother asking how.

All advanced level forehands will have sidespin.. that's a given. Every time I refer to taking the ball on the outside, I'm asuming the reading understands this means sidespin. That's why in ALL my posts I talk about how the ball when going DTL looks as though it is going to be called out, but then hooks back in. If I didn't know how to hit "around" the ball, why do my balls curve back in? Is it by magic?

Again refer to this post where Marius is talking about the exact same thing I'm talking about. It is not a reverse forehand, I have no idea what a reverse forehand is, and Marius said it's not a reveres forehand either: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=55446

You don't naturally brush around the side.
Yes you do if you're 4.5+.


-----------
Now, what that said.. what the hell is a reverse forehand.. Searching the web comes out with garbage so obviously this is something few people use and probably has another name.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 08:47 PM
It ALSO does not come completely NATURALLY. Just because your hitting it on the inside does NOT mean you're brushing around the side.


That means you're not hitting an inside out forehand. It means you're running around your backhand and hitting a reverse crosscourt forehand.

Terminology here termonology there.. I dont care about termonology as long as I can beat you or my opponent. You can call it a reverse summersault backflip forehand if you want LOL

Meat
06-15-2005, 09:06 PM
Reverse forehand? You don't know about it, and you call yourself a 5.0 genius in other threads?

Like Nadal's forehand for example. It's also called a running forehand, etc. Sampras had a good one. Davenport uses it all the time.

THAT'S what you're thinking about. Where it goes down the line and curves left into the court at the last second.

THIS sidespin is going the OTHER WAY. It's going RIGHT.

Don't post about things you don't know about. Reverse forehand is the common term for the on the run, forehand that curves left and goes in when hit DTL.

Rickson
06-15-2005, 09:10 PM
I don't know, Meat. I have to side with TS on this one. TS doesn't care about terminology and he knows his tennis. Tennis is all about looking cool, the cooler the shot, the better.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 09:20 PM
Don't post about things you don't know about. Reverse forehand is the common term for the on the run, forehand that curves left and goes in when hit DTL.

LoL.. Do a search for your common "reverse forehand".. see how many threads talk about the reverse forehand... LoL.. As for me, I'll just keep playing and leave the academic tennis to the pushers and destroyers like yourself. Mr. Pusher has played for 6 years loses to a player that plays for 3 years (and female). You sure do "destroy" your opponents.

You said your game isn't based on beating someone 6-0, 6-0? In my book the only way you can claim to destroy someone is when you actually do destroy them..

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 09:24 PM
Reverse forehand? You don't know about it, and you call yourself a 5.0 genius in other threads?


Genius's dont care about what things are called. They just do it by instinct or understanding the material. In math, an academic scholar will say this proof is supported by the McLauren Theory... The genius will say I just did this proof and you can call these steps whatever you want.

Also it seems like you were just asking what sidespin is a few days ago.. now you're an expert? LoL nice one
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=55446

RiosTheGenius
06-15-2005, 09:36 PM
I might not be able to give you a decent explanation about this shot, anyway some coments here are pretty good and I would recommend you watch Moya a lot cuz he's the master of that stuff
but what I can tell you is how I handle those; as I happened to be a lefty I just get around the ball with heavy top sidespin back passing the racquet over my head as I swing and it keeps me on the point. there's not a whole a lot you can do against that shot therefore a good plan is to stop giving your oponent the chance to hit them.
firstly, in order to hit that shot he must hit it flat and to do that he needs a certain height on the bounce, so obviously if you can hit slices, or low bouncing balls combined to some heavy topspin to his B/H (just to fcuk with him) only might give this guy some trouble if that's his main weapon.
let me know how you do alright.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 09:58 PM
I might not be able to give you a decent explanation about this shot, anyway some coments here are pretty good and I would recommend you watch Moya a lot cuz he's the master of that stuff
but what I can tell you is how I handle those; as I happened to be a lefty I just get around the ball with heavy top sidespin back passing the racquet over my head as I swing and it keeps me on the point. there's not a whole a lot you can do against that shot therefore a good plan is to stop giving your oponent the chance to hit them.
firstly, in order to hit that shot he must hit it flat and to do that he needs a certain height on the bounce, so obviously if you can hit slices, or low bouncing balls combined to some heavy topspin to his B/H (just to fcuk with him) only might give this guy some trouble if that's his main weapon.
let me know how you do alright.

I think I know what shot you're talking about.. WHen you get a high ball and you can power through by taking the inside of the ball. You actually brush it from right to left because its so high (for a righty). It comes down fast at the opponent almost looks like an overhead but not.

Noelle
06-15-2005, 10:20 PM
Okay, search results.

Reverse forehand (AKA the buggywhip):
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=49856
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=27848
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=25187

Based on the descriptions of this certain shot alone, this is not an inside-out forehand.

You know that shot that Roddick and Moya like to do a lot? They run to the ad court and hit a forehand to the opponent's ad court. THAT's an inside-out forehand (also known as the off forehand).

Ferrero's inside-out forehand, as explained by BBC Sports:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/tennis/skills/newsid_3414000/3414349.stm

By its very definition, an inside-out forehand goes crosscourt to the right if hit by a lefty, and a lefty inside-out forehand goes crosscourt to the left. An inside-out forehand CANNOT be hit DTL.

Definition of Inside-Out:
http://www.usanetwork.com/sports/usopen2000/inthestands/glossary.html

A type of shot in which the player hits the ball away from his body in a wide angle to the opponent's corner. Can be either a forehand or a backhand.

Meat
06-15-2005, 10:27 PM
Thank you.

TwistServe- I posted a thread on sidespin to find out how to achieve it in a larger variety of my shots. I asked about the reverse forehand (or buggy whip) because it's been known to achieve right to left sidespin.

In this case, we are thinking of left to right on the inside-out forehand.

And what's with all your personal attacks? Kana's a great player. She succeeds in the 4.5 league and tournaments, she's moving up further. If I could use pace in my game, and get rid of my limits, I'd go further up, too.

Yes, I DO destroy my opponents if I can. I take them completely out of their comfort zone. Obviously, this works on a lot of people. It's less effective on others if they volley, or have certain styles of play. That's true for everything. If you're not used to playing S&Vers, you're not going to do so great the first time around.

Do YOU beat everyone you play first try? No.

I appreciate everyone calling me egocentric. That's fine. But at times, I'm just pointing out that you're WRONG -you're just confused about the situation here. Is that not your argument with Kana? You're not right all the time either.

Thank you. Goodbye, and stop posting things and resurrecting old threads because you want to make a short, stupid comeback.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 10:27 PM
Okay, search results.

Reverse forehand (AKA the buggywhip):
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=49856
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=27848
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=25187

Based on the descriptions of this certain shot alone, this is not the "inside-out" forehand that TwistServe keeps referring to.

You know that shot that Roddick and Moya like to do a lot? They run to the ad court and hit a forehand to the opponent's ad court. THAT's an inside-out forehand (also known as the off forehand).

Yep I didn't think I was refering to a "reverse forehand" but meat keeps insisting that's what I'm describing...

TwistServe, you are thinking of a normal reverse forehand, in which you are brushing around the OPPOSITE side of the ball from what Orson is talking about.

The thread title asking about Inside OUt Forehands with spin.. not reverse forehands... So according to Noelle the inside out forehand with side spin that I've been talking about is the off forehand.. I'm content with that :)

Meat
06-15-2005, 10:33 PM
On your last sentence, EXACTLY. It's talking about the other kind of spin. The "off" forehand we're talking about does not look out down the line and and curve back in. The "off" forehand curves the other way. In essence, it would curve out.

Thank you.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 10:37 PM
TwistServe, you are thinking of a normal reverse forehand, in which you are brushing around the OPPOSITE side of the ball from what Orson is talking about.

You simply have the wrong point. This is on inside-out forehands, I find Phil's post more appropriate. You are thinking of the "reverse" forehand in which the racquet starts and finishes on the same side. You get slight topspin from "hooking" the outside of the ball.


Actually thanks to Noelle now I realize what you're talking about. The reverse forehand that you describe is not the same as what I described. What I'm talking about is the "off forehand" as Noelle calls it.. What you're talking about is a buggy whip .. u hit the ball from right to left. I just love it when people try to make me look stupid and it just backfires.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 10:38 PM
On your last sentence, EXACTLY. It's talking about the other kind of spin. The "off" forehand we're talking about does not look out down the line and and curve back in. The "off" forehand curves the other way. In essence, it would curve out.

Thank you.

hAHHAHAHAH Yes it does if you hit it right.. ANd you've just proven you don't know how to hit it.. HAHHAHA

Meat
06-15-2005, 10:40 PM
Excuse me? You're the one looking stupid.

Must I repeat myself again, as you make people do in every thread?

You can hit outside of the ball at any direction... DTL or crosscourt. Usually its easier to do this so that the ball moves to the duece court.

Watch when pros go DTL, the ball is sometimes actually outside of the line and should be called out.. It hooks back in at the last minute and is a good play.

This is yourself. Listen to yourself. When it's down the line, and looks like its going out but curves in, that means the ball is going from right to left, right? Unless you are referring to a lefty.

The poster is not aiming for it to hook in. He wants it to move out. Understand?

Why is this so hard for you?

Noelle
06-15-2005, 10:41 PM
OK, it appears I've landed in the middle of a flame war between TwistServe and Meat. All I wanted to do was clarify the definitions of the terms being used so that innocent, unsuspecting people just looking for useful tips could find them in one post instead of wading through pages of arguments trying to sift out which is real and which is bogus.

Meat
06-15-2005, 10:42 PM
hAHHAHAHAH Yes it does if you hit it right.. ANd you've just proven you don't know how to hit it.. HAHHAHA

Point proven. Do I have to repeat myself more? Look at your own quote.

Top 20 college my ***. This IS the Internet, but you shouldn't post such blatant lies when you can't even spell and have no clue what you're talking about. I wouldn't mind if you actually SOUNDED like you graduated from the college and had a six figure salary.

Noelle
06-15-2005, 10:47 PM
Inside-Out forehands:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=442634&postcount=24

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 10:48 PM
Point proven. Do I have to repeat myself more? Look at your own quote.

Top 20 college my ***. This IS the Internet, but you shouldn't post such blatant lies when you can't even spell and have no clue what you're talking about. I wouldn't mind if you actually SOUNDED like you graduated from the college and had a six figure salary.

When first you don't succeed try try and change the subject to personal matters. I won't prove to you that I have 6 figure inome nor will I prove to you that I went to a top university in California.

I feel sorry that you have to keep mentioning that you starved in india since 5. It brings some perspective :(

Meat
06-15-2005, 10:49 PM
Exactly. Thank you for the definitions, they should help people clear things up when looking at TwistServe's bull.

You want it to go to the outside corner, and curve out. TwistServe's quote has stated that he wants it to hook IN, or curve IN. It's that simple.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 10:53 PM
Exactly. Thank you for the definitions, they should help people clear things up when looking at TwistServe's bull.

You want it to go to the outside corner, and curve out. TwistServe's quote has stated that he wants it to hook IN, or curve IN. It's that simple.

Yes the stroke I'm talking about is a forehand that curves back in if hit to the ad court, or curves out if hit to the duece court. Either way it's not the "reverse forehand" that you thought.. its called an off forehand and can be done by hitting the outside of the ball. I hit these buggy whips all the time when the ball gets too high. Its sad you don't think its possible to hook the ball using an off forehand.

Meat
06-15-2005, 10:59 PM
Don't pull that CRAP. That's even MORE blatant.

Obviously, it's hard to almost impossible to hook backhands, unless you slice it. Which means you want to use a forehand. For hooking to be any useful, you have to be DRAWN OFF THE COURT. I don't think you're going to run around it and use that "off" forehand here. That's a weapon you can use when you have the time to set up for it. You're sure as hell not going to hook it back in like that.

The next thing you're going to say is "I thought he was a lefty". Same level of intelligence.

On another note, buggy whips aren't completely intended for when the ball is too high, either. And don't you have a Western grip? Buggy whips are ON THE RUN FOREHANDS OR ARE USED BY MANY PEOPLE WHEN THEY'RE DRAWN OFF THE COURT.

It doesn't make your contact zone any higher.

For a right handed player it shoudl curve from left to right to left..

So you're stating it goes out right and hooks back left. Is this not right to left curving? Don't contradict yourself, it's too late to save face.

Share more of your "tennis knowledge".

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 11:03 PM
Don't pull that CRAP. That's even MORE blatant.

So you're stating it goes out right and hooks back left. Is this not right to left curving? Don't contradict yourself, it's too late to save face.

Share more of your "tennis knowledge".

God I need to give you a tennis lesson.. Or even Marius should give you a tennis lesson. How come you didn't argue with Marius with what he said in post #2 and #4? The forehand can be hit to hook back into the court and NO its not a reverse forehand. LoL

Noelle
06-15-2005, 11:05 PM
Yes the stroke I'm talking about is a forehand that curves back in if hit to the ad court, or curves out if hit to the duece court. Either way it's not the "reverse forehand" that you thought.. its called an off forehand and can be done by hitting the outside of the ball. I hit these buggy whips all the time when the ball gets too high. Its sad you don't think its possible to hook the ball using an off forehand.
No. The off forehand (inside-out forehand) curves outwards, but the topspin it's also hit with curves it down into the court. It is not hit down the line!

It makes me wonder if you know what the deuce court and the ad court are.

Meat
06-15-2005, 11:07 PM
That is also not an OFF forehand. And you seem to think a buggy whip is for when the ball gets too high.

Post 2 and 4? You're in the wrong thread, dumb*ss. I'm not responding to those posts because he's RIGHT, and he's talking about something completely different.

He said DTL forehands, right? He's talking about rightys. That means it goes down the line on the DEUCE side, and hooks back in.

You're just speaking uselessly in hopes of sounding intelligent.



Noelle: THANK YOU.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 11:10 PM
Post 2 and 4? You're in the wrong thread, dumb*ss. .

Ouch that hurt.. the name calling really hurts..

Meat
06-15-2005, 11:14 PM
I'm sorry. I wouldn't want to hurt your feelings.

We'll make it better while we ride on the rainbow and eat ice cream. And fly over the world and sing songs.

You'll forget you were completely and blatantly wrong when we even get our ponies.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 11:21 PM
You'll forget you were completely and blatantly wrong when we even get our ponies.

I'm sorry but ponies are for short people or midgets. I much prefer the horse.

Meat
06-15-2005, 11:23 PM
Admit you were wrong and you can have the horse, too.

Hell, we can chase leprechauns if you want. I'm not going to let this go until you stop shoving lies in people's faces in a series of blatantly wrong comments.

TwistServe
06-15-2005, 11:26 PM
Admit you were wrong and you can have the horse, too.

Hell, we can chase leprechauns if you want. I'm not going to let this go until you stop shoving lies in people's faces in a series of blatantly wrong comments.

I dont know what I'm wrong about. If BB says I'm wrong then I'll say I'm wrong. I've been wrong before and theres no reason I wouldnt be wrong again.

But meat you just posted a thread a few days ago asking questions about sidespin. I think ii'll wait for BB's clarifications. :)

Meat
06-15-2005, 11:29 PM
You don't know what you're wrong about?

How bout the entire thing altogether?

Yes, I posted a thread on sidespin to make sure I could obtain all possible ways of achieving it. I've already succeeded.

Here you are shrugging it off, and waiting for someone else.

If you can admit you're wrong like that, that's fine. That's admirable. What's not admirable is carrying this to four or five threads, yelling and screaming, and repeatedly giving people false advice. That is not admirable.

Next time you scream, make sure you're right.

I see that whole post as simply an attempt to back out of this.

Orson Welles
06-16-2005, 12:15 AM
Well, I wrote my last post a few hours ago after I started this thread and then I left to play tennis, came back, had dinner and came up stairs to go to bed and I see that I missed several hours of debate. Many thanks to Noelle and Meat for helping me clear this up with Twist Serve. Yes, I'm talking about an inside-out forehand and TwistServe was talking about the reverse forehand or buggy whip.

Dear Twist Serve, I'm sure you're a good person deep down and an excellent tennis player, but you really seemed to have lost it on this one. Not only was I using pretty basic terminology in using the term "inside out forehand" but I even described it to you in excruciating detail, but you seemed to have this freaking reverse forehand idea ingrained in your brain and you just couldn't let go! For goodness sakes, I even went on and on about Jim Courier and what his primary shot was! When did he ever hit anything but an inside-out forehand. He never hit anything approaching the reverse forehand/buggy whip. It's Pete Sampras and Nadal who are known to hit this reverse forehand that you are obviously obsessed about. If you say "dtl" one more time, I think I'm going to scream!! Instead of trying to help me, you just kept fighting with me and saying.."you can go down the line too!!" Holy Sh**, couldn't you EVER let it GO!!

Now, after wasting 5 hours of time, energy and tons of aggravation, can anyone help me hit the shot that I'm talking about?!! I'm talking about the one that Courier was known for, the one that goes OFF the court as Noelle and Meat kept clarifying for us. I'm talking about one with some pace, angle and some vicious side-spin that is almost impossible to defend against. The one that I described in my initial posts.

BB where are you? I even sent you an e-mail directly when I started this thread.

And, please TwistServe, try to restrain yourself from responding unless you can help me hit the shot that I am talking about (not the shot that YOU want to talk about).

TwistServe
06-16-2005, 12:19 AM
Well, I wrote my last post a few hours ago after I started this thread and then I left to play tennis, came back, had dinner and came up stairs to go to bed and I see that I missed several hours of debate. Many thanks to Noelle and Meat for helping me clear this up with Twist Serve. Yes, I'm talking about an inside-out forehand and TwistServe was talking about the reverse forehand or buggy whip.


Orson, I never said the forehand I was describing is the one you're trying to hit. I said I could be wrong because I didn't quite know what you were refering to but I described a forehand with sidespin. This thread extended because I was telling Meat that the forehand I described is not the reverse forehand. Meat is obsessed with this reverse forehand not me. I personally don't hit many reverse forehands. I think you got confused in a sea of flames and I'm sorry it ended like that.

Who knows maybe I'm wrong. Like I said, I'd have to see it to know what's being talked about.

Marius_Hancu
06-16-2005, 12:20 AM
you might want to check:

How do u hit an inside out??
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=33176

What's the inside out shot?
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=20278

Noelle
06-16-2005, 12:35 AM
Thanks Marius.

Orson, you can also check out Inside-out forehand footwork (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=38187).

I think (someone say something if I'm wrong) if you want to impart some right-to-left sidespin to the shot to make the ball shoot off sharply rightwards, you pull your racquet's swingpath a little bit to the left. You still want to come up behind the ball for some topspin so that it dips down into the court and doesn't overshoot the sideline, though.

TwistServe
06-16-2005, 12:40 AM
Thanks Marius.

Orson, you can also check out Inside-out forehand footwork (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=38187).

I think (someone say something if I'm wrong) if you want to impart some right-to-left sidespin to the shot to make the ball shoot off sharply rightwards, you pull your racquet's swingpath a little bit to the left. You still want to come up behind the ball for some topspin so that it dips down into the court and doesn't overshoot the sideline, though.

I'll go one step further.. Slowly swing your forehand in a motion that is counter clockwise. Pretend you're making a circle. Now you can make contact with the ball from 2 o'clock to 10 o'clock which emulates a left handed server's slice. Now when a ball comes thats high try that motion and it'll shoot from right to left right and curve outside of the ad court.

Noelle
06-16-2005, 12:55 AM
I'd say 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock would be a better clockface analogy. If you're hitting it at 2 o'clock to 10 o'clock, you wouldn't be producing topspin along with the sidespin. Also, a motion like that seems like it uses a LOT of wrist.

I think you shouldn't refer to serving when people are talking about groundstrokes. It might seem useful, but it muddies up the explanation and could send people in the wrong direction.

Besides, I don't think Orson was talking about a high ball. The inside-out forehand is an aggressive stroke and shouldn't be done when you're on the defensive. High balls put you on the defensive, so I don't think he'd be trying an inside-out forehand on a high ball.

TwistServe
06-16-2005, 01:01 AM
I'd say 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock would be a better clockface analogy. If you're hitting it at 2 o'clock to 10 o'clock, you wouldn't be producing topspin along with the sidespin. Also, a motion like that seems like it uses a LOT of wrist.

I think you shouldn't refer to serving when people are talking about groundstrokes. It might seem useful, but it muddies up the explanation and could send people in the wrong direction.

Besides, I don't think Orson was talking about a high ball. The inside-out forehand is an aggressive stroke and shouldn't be done when you're on the defensive. High balls put you on the defensive, so I don't think he'd be trying an inside-out forehand on a high ball.

Yep 4'oclock to 10'oclock works well. So the question is what is this infamous stroke called? Where are the experts?

Noelle
06-16-2005, 01:05 AM
Um, which stroke are you talking about, TwistServe?

We're all still talking about inside-out forehands, AKA off forehands.

TwistServe
06-16-2005, 01:11 AM
Um, which stroke are you talking about, TwistServe?

We're all still talking about inside-out forehands, AKA off forehands.

Lol Are we? The inside out forehand doesn't have that type of spin and the inside out forehand has a normal low to high,left to right stroke. The type of spin the original poster is asking for requires a right hander to hit a forehand brushing from 4 oclock to 10 oclock or so we guessed...

Arent these two different strokes?

Noelle
06-16-2005, 01:21 AM
TwistServe, I thought you didn't care what a shot was called.

Jim Courier was famous for his wicked inside-out forehand, but not every one that he hit flew off the court with sidespin for a virtual winner. Perhaps if you focussed on some of Courier's best inside-out forehands, the ones that are particularly wicked, then you'll understand what I mean.

Personally, I think Orson was asking how to add side-spin onto an inside-out forehand.

TwistServe
06-16-2005, 01:26 AM
TwistServe, I thought you didn't care what a shot was called.



Personally, I think Orson was asking how to add side-spin onto inside-out forehand.

I dont really care what a shot is called. I said that more as a joke since all this aruging was about what shots were called.
As for insideout forehands with sidespin, there are many. You can do so much to a ball to produce side spin as long as theres some type of left to right or right to left path.I think orson was specifically asking about a forehand that curves out wide on the ad court when hit ad court to ad court. Otherwise he wouldnt have snapped at me about the one that hooks into the court.

Meat
06-16-2005, 11:55 AM
TwistServe, you once again are clueless.

He WAS talking about an adcourt to adcourt ball that curves wide. If you failed to understand it, he made it very clear in the first post he made.

And "many" inside out forehand with sidespin? I hate to burst your bubble again, but if you're brushing around the right side of the ball (left to right path) it's sure as hell not going to go crosscourt from the adcourt.

As a joke? Arguing? You're the only one that has it all wrong.

THIS is tennis-based. At least get your "tennis-based" discussions right.

dmvprof
06-16-2005, 12:20 PM
Meat,

I got what TS was saying. I think you're overreacting a bit.

I know plenty of guys that will brush the ball right to left to cause the spin to go out wide on the ad side.

Meat
06-16-2005, 12:24 PM
When they brush the ball right to left, it does not go wide on the ad side.

With that motion, it curves LEFT after the bounce. The OP wants it to go right.

It's possible you just got confused in that, and made a typo. And that's exactly what I'm saying -it's possible in an inside-out forehand to brush up the left side (left to right) and make the forehand curve out wide on the ad side.

TwistServe believed that this forehand was for hitting DOWN THE LINE on the ad side, and hooking in. That's not an inside out forehand, let alone what you're talking about, and what everyone else was talking about.

Essentially, he was not thinking at all about inside-out forehands. He also decided he had to ressurrect and talk about this in four (or more) different threads, while showing off his knowledge. THAT'S why I'm overreacting -he brings everything to the personal level, wants to involve EVERYONE -and somehow still feels the need to bring up and insult Kana again.

ohplease
06-16-2005, 12:34 PM
This shot is lots easier to hit with more conventional grips. Semi-westerns and westerns tend to have that across the body flying elbow thing going on - a natural fit for hooking the ball right to left (assuming right handed). You can get the ball to tail the opposite way (left to right) with these grips if you time it right and position your feet and shoulders correctly - but it's much, much easier with flatter eastern strokes. Sort of like how it's easier to get the ball to tail to the sideline with a slice backhand instead of top.

Jimmy Connors' forehand it a textbook example of this shot. Really useful for attacking all-courters and netrushers. Not used very often by the hyper-topspin generation.

dmvprof
06-16-2005, 12:58 PM
When they brush the ball right to left, it does not go wide on the ad side.

With that motion, it curves LEFT after the bounce. The OP wants it to go right.

It's possible you just got confused in that, and made a typo. And that's exactly what I'm saying -it's possible in an inside-out forehand to brush up the left side (left to right) and make the forehand curve out wide on the ad side.

TwistServe believed that this forehand was for hitting DOWN THE LINE on the ad side, and hooking in. That's not an inside out forehand, let alone what you're talking about, and what everyone else was talking about.

Essentially, he was not thinking at all about inside-out forehands. He also decided he had to ressurrect and talk about this in four (or more) different threads, while showing off his knowledge. THAT'S why I'm overreacting -he brings everything to the personal level, wants to involve EVERYONE -and somehow still feels the need to bring up and insult Kana again.


I don't want to argue, but I know that when I serve the ball, I can get a screwball action by brushing it the opposite way of my normal server.

I'm lefthanded, so it's a bit backwards.

But if I hit a serve to the deuce court, and I want it to curve away from my opponents forehand, I have to brush the ball from left to right. If I hit it right it not only curves in the air, but on the bounce as well. I call it my screwball, but whatever.

So it would stand to reason that the opposite would be true for a righty.

If he were serving to the ad side, and wanted the ball to go wide and away from the returners backhand, he would need to brush it from right to left.

Meat
06-16-2005, 01:07 PM
Keep in mind this is NOT serving, and it's confusing since what we're talking about is all rightys.

On the ad side, hitting to the opponents backhand (for rightys) is hitting wide, right? He'd want the ball to move right after the bounce, correct? That's a left to right spin.

It's opposite for you, because you're left handed. When a righty is serving to the deuce court, he still wants the ball to break right for sidespin. That's still left to right spin.

This is confusing for many people because we're moving into serves now from IO forehands.

You said your screwball brushes the ball from left to right, right? That's exactly what you want. It's definitely not what TwistServe was talking about, and he wasn't sure what an inside-out forehand was anyway, and got himself caught up by making numerous "definitions".

When TwistServe corrected himself (and still failed) by wanting the ball to hook in on the adcourt, that's in a position that will almost never happen and is hard to do. Not to mention it has nothing to do with IO forehands whatsoever.

TwistServe
06-16-2005, 01:46 PM
If he were serving to the ad side, and wanted the ball to go wide and away from the returners backhand, he would need to brush it from right to left.

Indeed.

Right to left spin curves out wide towards ad court and out.

Left to right spin curves out wide toards duece court and out.

kreative
06-17-2005, 03:18 PM
First of all, don't you mean that you must hit the INSIDE of the ball? If you hit the OUTSIDE of the ball, it will hook cross court and angled crosscourt. Second of all, I know how to hit a regular sidespin shot, but this is usually a worthless trick shot that has little pace or spin. Most people who hit a shot with sidespin don't hit a winner with that shot or a shot that really hurts the opponent. You've probably seen the pros hit an inside out forehand that is very aggressive and hard and it not only has a good angle (often landing near the service line), but it tends to have sidespin and flies off the court often a clearn winner. Jim Courier was famous for his wicked inside-out forehand, but not every one that he hit flew off the court with sidespin for a virtual winner. Perhaps if you focussed on some of Courier's best inside-out forehands, the ones that are particularly wicked, then you'll understand what I mean.

If you compare Courier's best inside-out forehands to a lot of other top players who also have powerful forehands like James Blake or Fernando Gonzales, Safin or even Agassi or Federerer, you'll understand the difference. These guys can all hit an inside-out forehand, but not with the same bite, spin and effectiveness as Courrier. Courrier could control the entire match with his inside-out forehand and just take control over almost every point once he hit it in a rally. The other greats that I mentioned above rarely hit the shot like he did. Now I realize that Courrier's backhand was a relative piece or crap compared to these other players and that's a primary reason he didn't have longevity, but if one could develop this shot and had no other weaknesses, then the ski is the limit.

Do you think you understand what I'm trying to describe now?

P.S. Let's try to avoid a semantic debate because then we won't get anywhere. I don't think most people define an inside-out forehand as having sidespin per se. When most people say "hit it inside-out" they're usually talking about direction such as a forehand from the hitters left corner of the court to the opponent's left side of the court and Right to right diagonal for someone hitting a backhand from his right side to the opponent's right side. Or they simply mean hitting it diagonally in that direction. Not once have I heard or read a tennis instructor discuss sidespin on a inside-out shot although I agree with you that the most effective ones have sidespin and that's my point.

I do appreciate your help and your effots and hope I don't come off as too annoyed.

when i read your original post, courier was the first player i thought of.