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GameTime
06-18-2005, 06:32 AM
I dislike the fact that many players tend to think highly of themselves and rate themselves too highly. I had a coach who played someone that just moved from New York claiming he was a 4.0 and then my coach clobbered him believing that he was probably more close to 2.5-3.0. I also discovered that if you are say, a 4.0 in New York, if you move down here your rating will drop. IMO, it is probably a fact that the best players live in the south since they get to play year-round, unlike the northern states. I was evaluated here in Florida and was rated as a 3.0, on a pretty horrible day, and possibly a 3.5 or better, when I'm playing my best.

krp312
06-18-2005, 06:47 AM
Yeah I definitely agree with you on that. I don't think people really understand the credentials you need for each playing level.

goober
06-18-2005, 07:05 AM
I dislike the fact that many players tend to think highly of themselves and rate themselves too highly. I had a coach who played someone that just moved from New York claiming he was a 4.0 and then my coach clobbered him believing that he was probably more close to 2.5-3.0. I also discovered that if you are say, a 4.0 in New York, if you move down here your rating will drop. IMO, it is probably a fact that the best players live in the south since they get to play year-round, unlike the northern states. I was evaluated here in Florida and was rated as a 3.0, on a pretty horrible day, and possibly a 3.5 or better, when I'm playing my best.

Not sure what your upset about. Places with tons of competition are going to have a larger number of better players. If you are in a place where there are not that many tennis players, a half decent one is going to stand out more and get rated higher based on better results against weaker competition. In the end does it really matter what people rate themselves? If they move to a place like Florida or Southern California from podunkville, they will have to adjust their ratings or get wiped out when they enter tournaments.

GameTime
06-18-2005, 07:19 AM
In the end does it really matter what people rate themselves? If they move to a place like Florida or Southern California from podunkville, they will have to adjust their ratings or get wiped out when they enter tournaments.

I don't think players should be allowed to rate themselves; only a certified person who can rate should. IMO, this will spare them from having to adjust their ratings or get wiped out when they enter tournaments; that will do some damage to the ego.

goober
06-18-2005, 07:43 AM
I don't think players should be allowed to rate themselves; only a certified person who can rate should. IMO, this will spare them from having to adjust their ratings or get wiped out when they enter tournaments; that will do some damage to the ego.

Well I play in several leagues which require that you get rated by one of the facilites own instructors before you can play. As far as I cant tell it is not any better than rating yourself. It is very subjective and watching somebody strokes is not always an indicator of how they are in actual matchplay. I started out last year in the 3.5 league. There were clearly some players that were 3.0 at best. there were multiple players I beat 6-0, 6-0 which should rarely if ever happen if you are at the same rating level
When I moved to 4.0 it was the same. There were always some players that you can't believe were rated at that level by an instructor.

JoeDan
06-18-2005, 06:28 PM
After I moved to NYC from LA I paid $20 to get rated by a pro, who put me at 3.5. That turns out to be a low rating for me in the summer when everybody plays and the competition is more variable. In the winter, when only the hard core are paying to play, I barely hold my own at that rating. Oh--and against tougher competition I choke a lot, too! Your rating is just a starting point. You play to find out where you really are, one opponent at a time.

TwistServe
06-18-2005, 06:37 PM
I don't think players should be allowed to rate themselves; only a certified person who can rate should. IMO, this will spare them from having to adjust their ratings or get wiped out when they enter tournaments; that will do some damage to the ego.

Think is some people play better while they're hitting with their coach, and then totally suck during a match. I know lots of players that hit well in practice and just push the ball back in a match. So if a certified person were to rate them, they would have to be an observer to a match.

Kana Himezaki
06-18-2005, 07:10 PM
It's not just that they play different in practice. Sure, the coach is feeding the balls right in their comfort zone, and when they find people that want to take it out of there they resort to pushing and whatever else since it's extremely hard to do it otherwise.

It's also because they read the NTRP site, where it seems extremely easy to be a 4.5 to even a 5.5. They see things like "able to hit a variety of strokes deep" and they believe it's directly referring to their "awesome forehand" and whatever.

They SERIOUSLY need to change that site. And yes, I believe it would help get rid of sandbaggers and people with wrong rankings if a coach or certified person would watch a match of theirs, first.

tennis-n-sc
06-19-2005, 04:18 AM
I think Kana is correct in that the USTA NTRP guidelines can be VERY misleading. However, the self rating gets you into tournaments and league play and if they are USTA events, the computer system takes over and the rating will eventually level out.

diredesire
06-19-2005, 12:02 PM
It's not just that they play different in practice. Sure, the coach is feeding the balls right in their comfort zone, and when they find people that want to take it out of there they resort to pushing and whatever else since it's extremely hard to do it otherwise.

It's also because they read the NTRP site, where it seems extremely easy to be a 4.5 to even a 5.5. They see things like "able to hit a variety of strokes deep" and they believe it's directly referring to their "awesome forehand" and whatever.

They SERIOUSLY need to change that site. And yes, I believe it would help get rid of sandbaggers and people with wrong rankings if a coach or certified person would watch a match of theirs, first.

I totally agree, people will read or see what they want to read or see.. Some of the descriptions appeal to strokes you might not even have... it's easy to picture yourself with a variety of spins even if you heavily rely on topspin and your backhand slice is a last resort..

Marius_Hancu
06-19-2005, 01:08 PM
check a more realistic system:
http://www.easitennis.com/NTRPSystem.htm

Kaptain Karl
06-19-2005, 02:33 PM
I agree that the ETPRS is a MUCH better system. (I'm NTRP 5.0 ... ETPRS 4.5 ... and it doesn't bother me in the least that "my rating" would drop on ETPRS. It's just plain better....)

But, as posted earlier, once you start playing competitively (Leagues or Tournaments) even the (poor) NTRP system is "self leveling."

- KK

Bungalo Bill
06-19-2005, 03:34 PM
I agree that the ETPRS is a MUCH better system. (I'm NTRP 5.0 ... ETPRS 4.5 ... and it doesn't bother me in the least that "my rating" would drop on ETPRS. It's just plain better....)

But, as posted earlier, once you start playing competitively (Leagues or Tournaments) even the (poor) NTRP system is "self leveling."

- KK

So true about not caring if your rating drops in one system compared to another system that rates skills in a different manner.

I agree with EASI's system, I just wonder whether it is going to by "listened" to.

When EASI sent the rating system for me (as well as others) to look at, I saw the validiaty in it but it would need critical mass to make it "the" system to go by. I think it would take an awful lot of marketing and determination to
overcome what people are used to.

I think we are in complete agreement on this rating stuff. How is your high school team doing?

Kaptain Karl
06-19-2005, 09:42 PM
Boys season here is in the Fall. We graduated eight Seniors last month. Next year's gonna be ... interesting.

I'm being more successful getting our local ADULTS to get back into the sport. All but three of my boys play tennis because they got cut from football or basketball ... or know they will not make the baseball team in Spring. (If I could get the kids to play as much as their parents do in the Summer ... we could have a more competitive team.) ::sigh::

Now if I can convince my AD to resurface our courts. (Pray for me....)

- KK

Bungalo Bill
06-20-2005, 07:13 AM
Boys season here is in the Fall. We graduated eight Seniors last month. Next year's gonna be ... interesting.

I'm being more successful getting our local ADULTS to get back into the sport. All but three of my boys play tennis because they got cut from football or basketball ... or know they will not make the baseball team in Spring. (If I could get the kids to play as much as their parents do in the Summer ... we could have a more competitive team.) ::sigh::

Now if I can convince my AD to resurface our courts. (Pray for me....)

- KK

I would be happy to pray for you. It also sounds like a good time for a BBQ/Tennis Tournament. Or a Parent/Child Tennis Tournament. :)

Kaptain Karl
06-20-2005, 09:40 AM
Hmmm. Good idea. Thanks!

- KK

ferreira
06-20-2005, 01:49 PM
I think Kana is correct in that the USTA NTRP guidelines can be VERY misleading. However, the self rating gets you into tournaments and league play and if they are USTA events, the computer system takes over and the rating will eventually level out.
I suggest a look at the ITN description page on the ITF website (www.itf.org). It has a much more detailed description (by stroke and game awareness) of playing standards, which can be directly related to NTRP. Levels (12) are grouped into Starter, Recreational, Intermediate (NTRP 3.0 to 4.0), Advanced (NTRP 4.5 to 5.5) and Elite.

tennis-n-sc
06-20-2005, 07:12 PM
ferreira, there are better systems out there, such as the one you suggest and the one Marius discussed. We in the U.S. are pretty well governed by the USTA guidelines, lacking as they are.

dennis10is
06-20-2005, 07:53 PM
USTA doesn't want to tell people from the outset that they aren't as good as they think they are.

After all, reality doesn't sell in the US. After two years to playing in the park, most Americans would believe that they are a 4.0.

While learning tennis back in the day, I gave myself 5 years to dedicated practice to reach the level where I thought I was able to rally. And this was with a lot of lesson and I considered myself an above average athlete.

We Americans, in general, like everything fast.

GuyClinch
06-21-2005, 08:58 PM
USTA doesn't want to tell people from the outset that they aren't as good as they think they are.

After all, reality doesn't sell in the US. After two years to playing in the park, most Americans would believe that they are a 4.0.

While learning tennis back in the day, I gave myself 5 years to dedicated practice to reach the level where I thought I was able to rally. And this was with a lot of lesson and I considered myself an above average athlete.

We Americans, in general, like everything fast.
Yesterday 03:12 AM

Come on now - let's not exaggerate. It's not because of "evil" american ways that the NTRP self rating system sucks. It's because the USTA hasn't done a good job explaining what the little descriptions mean in the real world.

I think they probably figured it was impossible to write good self ratings so they essentially gave up. I think they have point. The league play rating system is probably alot better.

It's pretty clear why the problem occurs it does SOUND kinda like you can do everything in the system.


"You have dependable strokes, including directional control and depth on both forehand and backhand sides on moderate-paced shots. You can use lobs, overheads, approach shots and volleys with some success and occasionally force errors when serving. Rallies may be lost due to impatience. Teamwork in doubles is evident. "

What do they mean by "dependable"? How much "directional control" does it to take to qualify as having "directional" control? How much success is "some" success with lobs, overheads and the like? Doesn't everyone lose rallies to "impatience"?

Almost anyone who plays the game could briefly imagine themselves to play 4.0. In reality even here in the much maligned NYC (for it's tennis) I know that 4.0 damn good player. And that is something I am not even thought it "seems" like I qualify on all those "criteria."

Pete

Pete

NoBadMojo
06-21-2005, 09:33 PM
i think the USTA rating guidelines are accurate and fair from a stroke production point of view, and a persons match record should speak for itself after a while from a competition/performence point of view. the system was written in the spirit of honesty and fair play and back when it was written, there were raters and you got rated. since then the game has changed and there are players who really have no volley <for example> who are playing 5.0 and above T. with the self rating, there are people who are less than honest so the system breaks down..you can phrase the levels anyway you like..isnt gonna change a thing. you are goimng to have these sorts of problems with anything that is handicapped like this.

divito
06-21-2005, 10:53 PM
According to the site Marius posted, I'm a 4.0 but I really don't think I'm that far along.

While this is a Canadian ranking, I think it would be a little more accurate.

http://www.tenniscanada.ca/federation/english/playtennis/rating-guide.html

According to the Canadian one, I'm probably more of an average 3.0 player and the Canadian guide covers Serve, Net play etc... which I thought was a lot better.

Bungalo Bill
06-22-2005, 06:30 AM
According to the site Marius posted, I'm a 4.0 but I really don't think I'm that far along.

While this is a Canadian ranking, I think it would be a little more accurate.

http://www.tenniscanada.ca/federation/english/playtennis/rating-guide.html

According to the Canadian one, I'm probably more of an average 3.0 player and the Canadian guide covers Serve, Net play etc... which I thought was a lot better.

Yes, I like the Canadians system a lot. I like the way they breakout the different strokes and provide measurement. I think this is very realistic since a player can have a 4.5 net game but a 3.5 grounstroke game. Or a 4.5 serve with a 3.5 return. I would like to see EASI do the same with theirs.

Kaptain Karl
06-22-2005, 08:34 AM
While this is a Canadian ranking, I think it would be a little more accurate.

http://www.tenniscanada.ca/federation/english/playtennis/rating-guide.html

[T]he Canadian guide covers Serve, Net play etc... which I thought was a lot better.Agreed! I've never seen this before. It's "Bookmarked" now. Thanks.

- KK

International Tennis Numb
07-07-2005, 08:17 PM
The International Tennis Number was developed by the ITF and is rapidly growing around the world as the official global ratings scheme for tennis.

All the major tennis nations have agreed to recognise the ITN. Even nations that have an established system like the USA have agreed to recognise the ITN along side their existing system.

You can dowload the latest ITN conversion chart at www.itftennis.com/itn

The ITN is an international tennis number that represents a player’s general level of play. In time it is hoped that every tennis player worldwide will have an ITN.

Worldwide research shows that one of the main reasons people stop playing tennis is that they can't find a compatible playing partner. The ITN is an ideal tool that will help to address this problem.

One of the biggest problems with ratings is if you are rated in a subjective method.

The ITN On Court Assessment is an objective assessment and was developed to help address this issue. You can also use the ITN On Court Assessment as an objective way to measure your improvement over time.

All coaches can implement the ITN On Court Assessment into their coaching businesses by registering as an Official ITN On Court Assessor at www.oncourtassessment.com