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Potito
06-22-2005, 01:40 AM
After practice on wrist laid back during the stroke, with good results by now, I would like to learn hitting the ball with the "educated wrist" at/after the contact point. Do you have any tips about it? I have a SW forehand grip, but
lately I've tried also a full western, with great feeling. Any difference on use of educated wrist between various grips and various stances?
Thx!

panatta
06-22-2005, 01:54 AM
My impression is that the more your grip is going western, the more you have to snap your wrist. Berasategui did that in a very shocking way, while players who have an eastern, continental or semiwestern grip don't seem to snap much.
Vai Potito! :--)

Potito
06-22-2005, 02:19 AM
Thank you panatta! :D

Really it seems to be more easy whipping with the western, I'll try in both manners....

E speriamo di riuscirci!! ;)

Ciao.

enk
06-22-2005, 07:20 PM
DO NOT deliberately snap your wrist!!!

You should just try to maintain your wrist in a neutral position on impact.
If your swing is vigorous enough, your wrist will naturally move.
You do not want to force this wrist movement and you do not want to avoid it either.

If you are use to snapping at the ball, your wrist will have to take up a lot more impact (punishment) than it already is taking.

Marius_Hancu
06-22-2005, 07:28 PM
on "wrist release" and others:

Federer: a wristy forehand?
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=33747

BE CAREFUL!

Potito
06-23-2005, 01:40 AM
Therefore, there isn't nothing more to learning in my forehand?? Indeed, it's better that I don't try to change my movement....? Considering that by now I take back the racquet with left arm, and then before the swing, I focus on
wrist "laid back". I try to keep it fixed during the swing, not only until the contact point, but for all the stroke.
In this way the followtrough is perfect, I finish with my right shoulder under my nose, pointing to the net. The control of the ball is great, and with my SW I can impart much topspin. Now, can I be pleased? Or the wrist must
be educated on their release?

Potito
06-23-2005, 02:26 AM
Thank you Marius, I've read the thread. I've found many interesting thing, among which:

The tendons in the laid back wrist _and_ in the elbow are tensed/extended back before and during contact, and they will have to contract immediately after that, as his wrist starts to pass in front of him.

Maybe the release is right that! When does it finish exactly the tension? At the contact or after?

Marius_Hancu
06-23-2005, 02:41 AM
Maybe the release is right that! When does it finish exactly the tension? At the contact or after?

it depends on the player. the pros seem to release their wrists right before the contact, based on what John Yandell says there.
------------
We have to distinguish between cause and effect here. Now Federer is an interesting case.

On a lot of balls--especially when he's hitting inside out you see him maintain the layback until well after the hit.

Others the wrist does appear to be releasing--or rather the layback decreasing as he moves to and through the hit.

The answer is to look at the whole hitting arm. It's actually almost completley straight at the elbow at contact. His forehand is much more of a "ballistic" movment than anyone else--it just explodes.

Try to replicate his hitting arm position at contact and you'll see that you can't realy keep the wrist back for long when you are hitting crosscourt or down the line. Actually Philippoussis does something similar.
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Potito
06-23-2005, 05:24 AM
Very interesting Marius!
Also I'm trying to hit through the ball, and this thing seems more easy if I think to keep my elbow in front of body during the contact. The wrist firm allow me to do my swing with steady elbow, so that it finish in right position. Now I can hit the ball with consistency and making clean contact. But it seems to me that the elbow remains near the body along the stroke, and that the forearm and elbow create an about 90 degrees.
Maybe wrist release helps to become arm straight after contact in Federer's forehand? And therefore, arm straight after contact means that I've done a good wrist release?

Bungalo Bill
06-23-2005, 07:54 AM
My impression is that the more your grip is going western, the more you have to snap your wrist. Berasategui did that in a very shocking way, while players who have an eastern, continental or semiwestern grip don't seem to snap much.
Vai Potito! :--)


I am sorry but I can't get there with you on this.

First, if you are looking to copy a pro with an exaggerated wrist movement you are asking for trouble as an apprentice in tennis. Most players do not have the conditioning, the timing, the talent, the time spent on/off court, and the skill to have excessive wrist movement and hit the ball consistently. Excessive wrist snap will hurt your stroke more then it will help your stroke and this goes for Western, SW, Eastern, and every other direction you can think of.

Western grippers will rotate their wrist from the forearm to wipe up the back of the ball. This is where the spin comes from because with this movement they can accelerate the racquet face up the back of the ball very fast. Remember the ball is only on the racquet for a very short time. This also puts a lot of strain on the elbow and is the reason why some Western grippers have to have surgery if abused.

The wrist release is very different and as Mahboob said, "it is an EDUCATED WRIST". It is in fact an educated movement. This means that anyone who does it properly knows that the movement can be described as:

1. Delicate

2. Precise

3. Effortless

4. Explicit

5. Relaxed

6. Unforced

7. Natural

8. Little

9. Short

10. Small

All of these words describe the wrist release as something that occurs through your bodies ability to relax near contact in the wrist area. You can lay back your wrist on all forehands and release the wrist. Anyone can do this. It adds trmendous power because it is holding stored energy in the laid back position and changing it into kinetic energy.

The only movement you need to think about doing to performdo a wrist release is to relax. Do not move it forward purposely or through tightening the tendons by contracting the forearm muscle. This is not the wrist release.

Other forceful sounding descriptions (especially the word "snapping") for me is not a great term to use to describe the wrist release. The wrist release is very delicate and is so small that it goes largely undetected. To the human eye at normal speed, it gives the appearance of the forehand looking like a loose whip with the wrist bending in the opposite direction (from the laid back position on the takeback) on the followthrough.

panatta
06-23-2005, 09:10 AM
[QUOTE=Bungalo Bill] It adds trmendous power because it is holding stored energy in the laid back position and changing it into kinetic energy.

That's what I was trying to say. I noticed for example Agassi and Sampras play very powerful forehand winners only with the wrist movement, because they were far from the ball, the legs were not pushing and the arm extended at its maximum to try to reach the ball. But they could give enormous speed to the ball only with the wrist.

You'r right.. probably grips make no difference in snapping the wrist..

Bungalo Bill
06-23-2005, 10:59 AM
[QUOTE=Bungalo Bill] It adds trmendous power because it is holding stored energy in the laid back position and changing it into kinetic energy.

That's what I was trying to say. I noticed for example Agassi and Sampras play very powerful forehand winners only with the wrist movement, because they were far from the ball, the legs were not pushing and the arm extended at its maximum to try to reach the ball. But they could give enormous speed to the ball only with the wrist.

You'r right.. probably grips make no difference in snapping the wrist..

Yes, the relaxation of the wrist and the forward motion of the swing as it is slowing down makes the wrist continue to move forward and bend the opposite way. If you want to use the term "snapping" I guess that is up to you. The truth is, it is not snapping. It is relaxing and slowing down. The ramp up speed during the wrist release is super small.

Most pros use the wrist release in their strokes for the majority of the time. On certain situations, like angling a short ball, the wrist take more of a dominant role in making the shot. This is also true for finesse shots or shots that you are unable to get your body weight into the shot and have to use wrist force to put some pace on the ball , like in the backcourt.

For all grounstrokes that you are hitting normally, the wrist release is a very subtle and almost undetectable movement that generates extra racquet speed into the ball. It is only providing more racquet pace because of couple things:

1. The arm is reaching it climax speed and sometimes is slightly slowing down at contact.

2. The wrist for a brief moment accelerates as it is being relaxed and provides a slight burst in speed at contact on top of the movement from the arm. In other words, it is speeding up the kinetic energy.

If you force it, your brain has to send a signal to execute the extra muscle tension to move the wrist more forcefully. The timeframe for this to happen in is so brief that many times your brain cant send the signal fast enough to make this happen on a consistent basis and hit the ball well. Kind of like the amount time the ball stays on the strings and your inability to influence the ball any further at contact because sensory registration is too slow.

Achillesg
06-23-2005, 12:23 PM
1. The arm is reaching it climax speed and sometimes is slightly slowing down at contact.



At tennisone.com, if I understand Heath Waters and others, they stress that the follow-through emphasizes acceleration through contact; furthermore, that one of the principal distinctions between an amateur stroke and a pro stroke is the amateur's almost universal tendency to accelerate at beginning of the forward swing as opposed to saving max acceleration until the latter part like the pros do.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding one of you? Personally, I'd like to get all of this straight in my mind. Maybe it's just two different styles that are being described.

panatta
06-23-2005, 01:45 PM
Thank you Bungalo.. I think I won't be able to avoid trying something new tomorrow, when I'll play in training :--)

What Achillesg said is so true.. There's a guy in my club who has a terribly powerful forehand: you can clearly see his racquet gain speed just a bit before he hits the ball.
He has a relatively slow swing.. and the racquet's head get a raising acceleration just when the arm comes from low to high.

Marius_Hancu
06-23-2005, 04:28 PM
At tennisone.com, if I understand Heath Waters and others, they stress that the follow-through emphasizes acceleration through contact; furthermore, that one of the principal distinctions between an amateur stroke and a pro stroke is the amateur's almost universal tendency to accelerate at beginning of the forward swing as opposed to saving max acceleration until the latter part like the pros do.
.

Some of you might want to read this posting of mine:

Acceleration at contact (observations on Sampras's running FH)
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=42851

Achillesg
06-23-2005, 05:12 PM
Marius,

Your linked thread goes into much more detail of the points I was bringing up. I understand the material in your thread, and I think I understand a lot of what Bungalo is describing regarding the subtlety of the wrist involvement. On those rare occasions that I've been playing enough that my timing is really good, and I mean it has to be perfect, I can use my wrist right at contact point to almost imperceptible solidify the entire stroke. I almost never am able to do this in match play, and I'd have a heckuva time trying to teach someone to do it. You just know what it feels like when it happens. One more point, I have only ever felt this sensation on relatively flat shots. I've never felt it on a severe topspin shot.

Bungalo, if you're saying something different from Marius about acceleration, please explain further.

Bungalo Bill
06-23-2005, 05:29 PM
At tennisone.com, if I understand Heath Waters and others, they stress that the follow-through emphasizes acceleration through contact; furthermore, that one of the principal distinctions between an amateur stroke and a pro stroke is the amateur's almost universal tendency to accelerate at beginning of the forward swing as opposed to saving max acceleration until the latter part like the pros do.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding one of you? Personally, I'd like to get all of this straight in my mind. Maybe it's just two different styles that are being described.

Overall, acceleration is a good thing through the contact point.

However, the rate of acceleration and acceleration speed at certain links are slowing down (and speeding up) at contact. This is the trade off of the kinetic chain. The links are the shoulders, the elbow, and finally the wrist.

Just before contact, the elbow is slowing down as it reaches its destination on front of the body. Because the elbow was accelerated sooner, the shoulders accelerate and slow down a tad later. The lower arm eventually is slung forward (accelerated). In other words, it is the kinetic chain at work.

As the arm is speeding up but its RATE of speed is diminishing, the final burst is added by simply relaxing the wrist through contact.

Bungalo Bill
06-23-2005, 05:31 PM
Thank you Bungalo.. I think I won't be able to avoid trying something new tomorrow, when I'll play in training :--)

What Achillesg said is so true.. There's a guy in my club who has a terribly powerful forehand: you can clearly see his racquet gain speed just a bit before he hits the ball.
He has a relatively slow swing.. and the racquet's head get a raising acceleration just when the arm comes from low to high.

the best thing is to not think about it. Just do your normal swing and relax the wrist slightly before contact. It is very natural.

Bungalo Bill
06-23-2005, 05:32 PM
Thank you Bungalo.. I think I won't be able to avoid trying something new tomorrow, when I'll play in training :--)

What Achillesg said is so true.. There's a guy in my club who has a terribly powerful forehand: you can clearly see his racquet gain speed just a bit before he hits the ball.
He has a relatively slow swing.. and the racquet's head get a raising acceleration just when the arm comes from low to high.

The best thing is to not think about it. Just do your normal swing and relax the wrist slightly before contact. It is very natural. In fact your are probably doing it already.

enk
06-23-2005, 06:10 PM
Good advice from Bungalo.

Keep things simple and try not to over analyse and you will improve much faster.

Let me paraphrase and quote a comment from JCo872 which I cannot agree more.

Some folks here are falling into the (all too easy) trap of losing the forest for the trees. Federer hits the ball with his entire body and uses the entire kinetic chain. You can see how he coils up and then uncoils into the ball, and the power flows from one segment to the other. If the wrist remained locked and stiff, the power could not flow into the racket. It would be like having a hinge that was rusted. If the wrist was loose and flicky, the power would never get to the ball either, but would immediately dissipate. The point is that the wrist is just one link in an entire chain of power flowing from one segment to the next. If you just zero in on the wrist, you will miss all the buildup of power that has preceded it.

Bungalo Bill
06-23-2005, 06:39 PM
Marius,

Your linked thread goes into much more detail of the points I was bringing up. I understand the material in your thread, and I think I understand a lot of what Bungalo is describing regarding the subtlety of the wrist involvement. On those rare occasions that I've been playing enough that my timing is really good, and I mean it has to be perfect, I can use my wrist right at contact point to almost imperceptible solidify the entire stroke. I almost never am able to do this in match play, and I'd have a heckuva time trying to teach someone to do it. You just know what it feels like when it happens. One more point, I have only ever felt this sensation on relatively flat shots. I've never felt it on a severe topspin shot.

Bungalo, if you're saying something different from Marius about acceleration, please explain further.

Not really. It doesnt take much to relax the wrist.

mistapooh
06-23-2005, 07:10 PM
I love this forum, always something new to tinker with.