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View Full Version : Schwartzel wins the Masters, why can't Sweeting win Wimbledon?


jdubbs
04-11-2011, 08:29 AM
While watching the Masters yesterday, it struck me that golfers tourney winners are always changing. Other than Tigers run for a few years, it seems like there's always a new name at the top of the leaderboard in the Slams.

But in tennis, the names seem to always stay the same. Fed. Nadal. Djokovic.
Occasionally, a Del Potro or Roddick lays claim, but very rarely.

Why does golf have a revolving door of champions? Why can a Schwartzel win the Masters, but a Ryan Sweeting likely will never win Wimbledon (or any of the slams?)

sureshs
04-11-2011, 08:30 AM
No, but Sweeting will win the French, given his performance yesterday.

Marius_Hancu
04-11-2011, 08:32 AM
Luck is much more a factor in golf.

jdubbs
04-11-2011, 08:37 AM
No, but Sweeting will win the French, given his performance yesterday.

Sweeting was just an example. It just seems like most of the guys outside of the elite 4 have no chance, as in literally zero chance. A Querrey, or a Monfils, or any other the other top 25 guys...no chance. But in golf, Schwartzel, ranked #29, wins a slam event.

#29 in the ATP is Tommy Robredo. What are the chances of him winning a slam event in the next 5 years?

sureshs
04-11-2011, 08:42 AM
As Marius said, luck is important in golf. Small ball, small driver head, small hole, too much dependence on wind and grass growth pattern, etc. Highly probabilistic.

rainingaces
04-11-2011, 08:43 AM
Golf and tennis is like comparing chalk and cheese. Golf is not as forgiving, for example you can be number 1 in the world but if you have one bad and three good ones your usally toast, in tennis if you have one bad set there is always the next one.
As well as Golf conditions being very veriable. Some players prefer fast greens, some prefer long courses, some like lynx golf, some prefer a certain course and on and on. Form plays a bigger part in golf too, if your out of form golfs no fun.

li0scc0
04-11-2011, 08:44 AM
In tennis, you go head to head with the other player, one on one. You do this over the course of 2 weeks.
In golf, everybody is playing against the course. And only for 4 days.
Also, tennis is a more physical sport. It requires physical traits that golf simply does not require. Thus, a more limited section of the population could ever hope to be a great tennis player vs. in golf. There are more great golfers vs. great tennis players.

aldeayeah
04-11-2011, 08:45 AM
Golf is a high variance sport. In tennis, one bad stroke only makes you lose a point; in golf, it can kill your chances of winning.

Also, tennis is a more physical sport. It requires physical traits that golf simply does not require. Thus, a more limited section of the population could ever hope to be a great tennis player vs. in golf. There are more great golfers vs. great tennis players.
I don't think that's a factor... I think the reason is in the nature/format of the game, rather than in the players' field.

jdubbs
04-11-2011, 08:49 AM
So what I'm hearing is that tennis is a truer test of greatness, less reliant on luck than golf.

So I wonder which is more impressive, Feds slams or Tigers? Since Tiger was focused on every single shot for a 4 day tournament against the worlds best? Or Fed focused for 2 weeks (but can miss a few shots during any particular match?)

kishnabe
04-11-2011, 08:51 AM
Rory(:lol: Triple Bogey at the 10th) and Tiger chocked when they had chances(Missed and Eagle chacne, and turned a birdie into a bogey).....

Well golf...it mostly about form on that day....Most champions just had a few good days...they don't reproduce consistently or ever at all except for that Ireland guy in 2007 and 08, Woods and Mickelson!

Tennis: Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic....great consistency!

aldeayeah
04-11-2011, 08:54 AM
So I wonder which is more impressive, Feds slams or Tigers? Since Tiger was focused on every single shot for a 4 day tournament against the worlds best? Or Fed focused for 2 weeks (but can miss a few shots during any particular match?)
I'd say Tiger's streaks are more impressive because in order to beat the natural variability of the game he had to be "better" (comparatively to other players) than Fed needed to be.

What I mean is, I think it's "harder" to reach the degree of domination Tiger had in golf than it is to reach the degree of domination Fed had in tennis.

At least judging by history.

ksbh
04-11-2011, 08:56 AM
Well, so long as the w*anker Eldrick Woods doesn't win it, everything is good!

stringertom
04-11-2011, 08:57 AM
Golf majors are all played as total strokes format while tennis majors are of course match play. If golf were to adopt match play format for their majors, I assure you most of the same guys would show up in the winner's circle.

That being said, a return to the 70s/80s free-for-all battle for tennis majors would be refreshing. ConnorsBorgVilasMcEnroeWilanderLendl was much spicier than Samgassi and Fedal of the past two decades.

sureshs
04-11-2011, 09:00 AM
Rec players I know who play both tennis and golf say golf is tougher.

jdubbs
04-11-2011, 09:01 AM
I'd say Tiger's streaks are more impressive because in order to beat the natural variability of the game he had to be "better" (comparatively to other players) than Fed needed to be.

What I mean is, I think it's "harder" to reach the degree of domination Tiger had in golf than it is to reach the degree of domination Fed had in tennis.

At least judging by history.

That's interesting...and I tend to agree with you. It's just hard to believe that one player can be so dominating for a period of time in tennis. In the past 20 years you basically had the Sampras era, then Fed, then Nadal, and now possibly Djokovic. All dominating for a good period of time (though we're in for a great Nadal/Djokovic rivalry hopefully).

jdubbs
04-11-2011, 09:13 AM
Rec players I know who play both tennis and golf say golf is tougher.

Compared to what?

Sure, it's hard to shoot in the 70's, but most tennis players can't serve more than 100MPH either.

To play tennis at a high level (i.e let's say 4.5 and above) probably takes about the same amount of time it takes to break 90 in golf. There are only a few amateurs who can break 90, fewer that can break 80, and almost none that can break 70. Just as in tennis, there are only a few who can play 4.5, and fewer than can play 5.0 (in fact, most 5.0 tourneys around here only have about 3-4 guys sign up). And true open players are very few and far between compared to the masses.

Golf just seems harder, but I don't think it's any harder than tennis. It just seems like it, with shots going wildly out of bounds, shanks galore and quad bogeys the norm for most of us.

pc1
04-11-2011, 09:19 AM
Johan Kriek thought Boris Becker at 17 could win Wimbledon in 1985 so you never know.

http://www.todayinhistory.de/index.php?what=thmanu&manu_id=1509&tag=7&monat=7&year=2035&dayisset=1&lang=en

sureshs
04-11-2011, 09:20 AM
I took one golf lesson, and stopped.

Maybe the reason is that there is nothing else like golf. If you have played table tennis (ping pong), badminton, racquetball, or simply throwing balls around, you have a feel of tennis before getting into it. There is nothing similar to golf which prepares you for it from childhood.

pc1
04-11-2011, 09:27 AM
I'd say Tiger's streaks are more impressive because in order to beat the natural variability of the game he had to be "better" (comparatively to other players) than Fed needed to be.

What I mean is, I think it's "harder" to reach the degree of domination Tiger had in golf than it is to reach the degree of domination Fed had in tennis.

At least judging by history.

In golf it's very very rare for a top player to win a high percentage of tournaments. In tennis guys like Federer, Borg, Laver, McEnroe, Connors, Tilden used to do it regularly.

In tennis if you're clearly better than the opponent you can often up your game a level if you're behind and your opponent will lose. In golf, if you are both top players and you start out with a triple bogey, you stand a good chance of losing even if you are better.

Overall in looking at Tiger Woods achievements over the years I think it's comparable to many of the top tennis player's in history's achievements.

Actually the greatest achievement that I've read about in golf is Byron Nelson's eleven consecutive PGA wins in 1945.

pc1
04-11-2011, 09:29 AM
I took one golf lesson, and stopped.

Maybe the reason is that there is nothing else like golf. If you have played table tennis (ping pong), badminton, racquetball, or simply throwing balls around, you have a feel of tennis before getting into it. There is nothing similar to golf which prepares you for it from childhood.

I like golf but I played it a bit as a kid and never had any lessons. I used to play with some family members and friends. Gave it up to play tennis but I do wish I continued to learn how to play golf. But given the choice between golf and tennis I'm glad I picked tennis.:)

Golf is a very frustrating game and I wish I devoted practice time to it.

Gemini
04-11-2011, 09:32 AM
Rec players I know who play both tennis and golf say golf is tougher.


I can see why golfers might think that. If you're able-bodied then your up potential is HUGE in golf. You can develop your game immensely because you're not necessarily limited by overt athletic measures like strength or speed. In that case, golf could be seen as more difficult because the only limitations you have are your abilities to hone certain skills. That in itself can be very difficult. For the golfers that play tennis (I'm a tennis player that plays golf), I think they recognize their physical/athletic limitations in terms of tennis and accept that they're not going to get any better so they're content to hone whatever skill they've gained at that given level.

They're two different experiences. If I have to equate golf to something it would be bowling.

As for Sweeting, he would have to make giant-step sized strides in his game to even be a threat at Wimbledon or the French.

sureshs
04-11-2011, 09:34 AM
I found that missing the sweetspot hurts the arm much more in golf than in tennis.

jdubbs
04-11-2011, 09:44 AM
I can see why golfers might think that. If you're able-bodied than your up potential is HUGE in golf. You can develop your game immensely because you're not necessarily limited by overt athletic measures like strength or speed. In that case, golf could be seen as more difficult because the only limitations you have are your abilities to hone certain skills. That in itself can be very difficult. For the golfers that play tennis (I'm a tennis player that plays golf), I think they recognize their physical/athletic limitations and accept that they're not going to get any better so they're content to hone whatever skill they've gained at that given level.

They're two different experiences. If I have to equate golf to something it would be bowling.

As for Sweeting, he would have to make giant-step sized strides in his game to even be a threat at Wimbledon or the French.

That makes sense. I'm on a quest to be a 4.5, but the physical limitations of age have made me see it's going to be extremely tough. Whereas in golf, my 72 year old father keeps working on his game trying to score better and better.

BTW Sweeting, I was just using as an example. I don't think he's a threat to win any slam, though could make noise at the French based on his performance at the U.S. Clay Courts this week.

stringertom
04-11-2011, 10:57 AM
That makes sense. I'm on a quest to be a 4.5, but the physical limitations of age have made me see it's going to be extremely tough. Whereas in golf, my 72 year old father keeps working on his game trying to score better and better.

BTW Sweeting, I was just using as an example. I don't think he's a threat to win any slam, though could make noise at the French based on his performance at the U.S. Clay Courts this week.

I commend Sweeting's Houston performance and the resultant climb into the 60's rankings, but there's the rub: he won't earn a seed at the FO so even if he gets a soft landing in the draw, he wins one maybe two matches before facing a top-tier player. A FO 3R result would keep his momentum rankings-wise, earn some cash and guarantee straight-in status in more tourneys. But that's not a lot of noise. If this was golf, he's headed to Hawaii next January for the TofC.

dominikk1985
04-11-2011, 10:57 AM
tennis is more a game of consistency, while golf is a game that 100s of guys can play very good.

golf is just like bowling. stationary target and only need to hit straight. that results in 1000s of players with a 0 handicap just like there are 100s of bowlers who can throw 250.

with so many athletes being able to score high only a few misses make the difference in those sports.

tennis is different. in golf and bowling the no.50 can score the same as the no.1 in a single round. only over many rounds the difference occurs.

tennis is different. tennis is all made to maximize difference.
-the winner takes all system (to get a game you must win the game, coming close in any game is not enough to get on the scoreboard
-the deuce and ad system (if there is a deuce you must win 2 points which makes it even harder to win a game)

in tennis you can be quite close in level and still get double bagled. to only win one game you already must be quite close in level because you at least need to get 4 points and 2 more than your opponent.

Overheadsmash
04-11-2011, 07:09 PM
As someone with an 8 handicap in golf, and who started playing tennis 2 years ago, I can shed some light on this.

In golf, to win, you are not beating 7 other players one at a time like in tennis. You have to play the course better than 120 other players, and you need to do it 4 days in a row, which is hard.

Take 21 year old Rory McIlroy at the masters this past weekend. Guy played lights out for three days, then on the back nine at Augusta, on Sunday, with Tiger and about 8 other guys making a run at him, his stroke breaks down and he blows up and shoots an 80. He's done. Conversely, South African Charl Schwatrzel, who was pretty unheard of unless you really follow golf, birdies 15, 16, 17, and 18 to kick everyone's behind. No one ha\s ever finished a masters with 4 birdies I don't think.

Tennis works nothing like this. In tennis you are figuring out a way to beat another person, who has weaknesses you are trying to exploit.

Devilito
04-11-2011, 07:48 PM
The toughest sports in the world are those that pit man vs man. Where you opponents movements and actions affect your movement and actions. Tennis, Boxing, MMA. Those are sports with variables only limited by body and mind. Golf can be played alone or with 1 trillion other people. The result is the same because your opponents actions have no theoretical affect on your actions. When you don’t have direct interaction with another human. I don’t even consider those “sports” but “games”. Legitimate in terms of entertainment value only. Not to say they don’t require skill. Being a circus acrobat takes immense amount of skill. Almost mind boggling. But being a circus acrobat is not a sport and never will be. Another reason why calling Gymnastics or Figure Skating sports is a joke as well.

Dilettante
04-11-2011, 07:56 PM
All I can say is I don't care about golf and it's a wonderful sport to turn on the TV and have a wonderful nap with a low voice in the background.

Shaolin
04-11-2011, 08:27 PM
Too many variables in golf for there to be the same kind of dominance from the same players over and over. Maybe if golf was played on the same exact course all over the world you would have a select few guys with a stranglehold on the game like tennis is now.

hoosierbr
04-11-2011, 08:32 PM
I think the OP is just having some fun w/you guys. If he seriously tried to connect the two this thread belongs in the Hall of Shame :)

aphex
04-11-2011, 10:00 PM
Golf is not a sport.

You won't see any fifty year old fatsos winning tennis tournaments any time soon.

Sentinel
04-11-2011, 11:28 PM
I think the OP is just having some fun w/you guys. If he seriously tried to connect the two this thread belongs in the Hall of Shame :)
you mean like this thread ?
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=374389