PDA

View Full Version : Why does Djokovic choke against Nadal when the stakes are high?


Shady_Sawyer
04-13-2011, 08:00 PM
It seems like he has beaten nadal on hard courts many times in mickey mouse tournaments but he just cannot beat him when the stakes are really high or when it really matters.
Olympics 2008 and UO 2010? Your thoughts.

RCizzle65
04-13-2011, 08:03 PM
It's mental, I don't know how the Olympics went for him, but the US Open, he said that the semifinal against Federer took out a lot emotionally in his interview afterwards, and that's one key thing needed to win. Look at his last couple wins against Nadal, Djokovic's mentality has changed, and he won both Indian Wells and Miami after losing the first set to Nadal.

Sid_Vicious
04-13-2011, 08:05 PM
Because he was not the "king" prior to Jan. 2011.

Tyrus
04-13-2011, 08:15 PM
IW and Miami are far from "Mickey Mouse" neither tournament is in LA or Orlando, so i have no idea what you really mean by "Mickey Mouse."

Also every loss you mentioned was pre 2011.

#Winning

PS. On that USO final last year, although Novak lost in pretty deciding fashion, his game was elevated greatly and he really showed some glimpses of his 2011 form. So you missed the foreshadowing.

PPS. Watch the Miami 2011 final, and tell me where you see any form of Choke. That was one of the better masters finals i've watched personally.

NadalAgassi
04-13-2011, 08:18 PM
The Olympic and U.S Open matches were no chokes. They were high quality and very competitive.

At the U.S Open Djokovic was not playing at his very best. He played very well after suriviving Trociki, and reached probably his highest level so far of an overall quiet year for his standards, but it still wasnt exactly his on fire tennis. He got lucky ******** showed up for the semis and he still could have lost (saved 2 match points). By contrast Nadal was on fire and at his best, so no surprise Nadal won fairly convincingly in the end. Nobody smart who had watched both play that tournament and all year would have picked Djokovic to win.

The Olympic match Nadal was overall outplayed a bit but his mental toughness kept him in the 3rd set and eventually payed off.

NADAL_GOT_THIS
04-13-2011, 08:18 PM
Djokovic was the "king" in 2008 Australian Open, that's the only court he plays great on. Even at Indian Wells and Miami he looked no different to the 2010 US Open except Nadal served a lot different!1

kishnabe
04-13-2011, 08:21 PM
Nadal was saying he never beat me where it mattered before IW final....now look what. The stakes were high at IW and Miami.

abmk
04-13-2011, 09:24 PM
The Olympic and U.S Open matches were no chokes. They were high quality and very competitive.



The olympics match was not a choke ? :lol:

What would you call the missed overhead from djoker at matchpoint then ?

starting at 6:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPoKUbTojxU

NadalAgassi
04-13-2011, 09:27 PM
The olympics match was not a choke ? :lol:

What would you call the missed overhead from djoker at matchpoint then ?

starting at 6:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPoKUbTojxU

I call it a bad shot at the wrong time. It takes more than one bad point to make a choke. Anyway you notice that was an extended deuce game where Nadal had already gotten his first winning overhead back. Once you get into a war of attrition with Nadal and he keeps getting your best shots back, well you are going to eventually crack.

abmk
04-13-2011, 09:35 PM
I call it a bad shot at the wrong time. It takes more than one bad point to make a choke. Anyway you notice that was an extended deuce game where Nadal had already gotten his first winning overhead back. Once you get into a war of attrition with Nadal and he keeps getting your best shots back, well you are going to eventually crack.

he missed an absolutely easy overhead on MP , matchpoint !!!!! choke may be going a bit too far, but surely a case of nerves ?

funny how in the so called war of "attrition", djoker breadsticked nadal in the 2nd set ! Djoker was by some distance the better fast HC player then and wouldn't have lost had it not been for the "stage"

MichaelNadal
04-13-2011, 09:36 PM
The olympics match was not a choke ? :lol:

What would you call the missed overhead from djoker at matchpoint then ?

starting at 6:20

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPoKUbTojxU

Daaaaamn Rafa was on fire. Im now convinced his 2008 level is better than his 2010 level.

MARTINBALDRIDGE
04-13-2011, 10:41 PM
I really did not expect Djokovic to beat Rafa in either of the US Masters 1000finals - but he did!

He says that he has improved, that his confidence and movement are great and that as he grew up on clay he feels he can challenge anyone, Rafa included on that surface.

Personally I don't think he can - but it will be interesting to find out whether I'm right or wrong - they're all brilliant, but some of their stars shine brighter than others.

MB

:):)

Agassifan
04-14-2011, 12:09 AM
Because he was not the "king" prior to Jan. 2011.

this........

Pozarevacka
04-14-2011, 06:08 AM
It seems like he has beaten nadal on hard courts many times in mickey mouse tournaments but he just cannot beat him when the stakes are really high or when it really matters.
Olympics 2008 and UO 2010? Your thoughts.

What is up with all the Ralphtards here? Looks like they getting worried.

The true question is, why does Ralph choke against Djoker when the stakes are high. Hasn't Ralph just lost 2 finals to Djokovic in a row?

single_handed_champion
04-14-2011, 06:12 AM
he missed an absolutely easy overhead on MP , matchpoint !!!!! choke may be going a bit too far, but surely a case of nerves ?

funny how in the so called war of "attrition", djoker breadsticked nadal in the 2nd set ! Djoker was by some distance the better fast HC player then and wouldn't have lost had it not been for the "stage"

It would be a legitimate choke, if that had happened on his own matchpoint and he went on to lose. As it was, Nadal was clearly better in the 1st set and could have won it even more easily than 6-4, Djokovic was clearly better in the 2nd, and the 3rd was neck-and-neck until crunch time, which is when the cream rises to the top as usual.

When Federer wins set after routine set by breaking at the death, do we wail 'choke by opponent'? NO, we say Federer is (was, overall, in the past) the better pressure player, who has experience stepping up the pressure on the opponent right when it counts.

CDestroyer
04-14-2011, 06:20 AM
What is up with all the Ralphtards here? Looks like they getting worried.

The true question is, why does Ralph choke against Djoker when the stakes are high. Hasn't Ralph just lost 2 finals to Djokovic in a row?

True. The doodo boy fans love to take up for their cheating saviour. Djokovic outplayed and outlasted Rafa more so than he choked.

NadalAgassi
04-14-2011, 06:21 AM
he missed an absolutely easy overhead on MP , matchpoint !!!!! choke may be going a bit too far, but surely a case of nerves ?

funny how in the so called war of "attrition", djoker breadsticked nadal in the 2nd set ! Djoker was by some distance the better fast HC player then and wouldn't have lost had it not been for the "stage"

Djokovic was much better in the 2nd set but Nadal raised his game and fought hard to get back into it in the 3rd. Djokovic was still arguably slightly better but due to Nadals fight could never quite pull away and in the end Nadals resilence payed off. I dont see what is so complicated about that. Saying someone choked since they had one bad miss is ridiculous. A choke is a string of poor play caused by nerves, not one shot. Nobody sane who watched the match would consider it a choke.

Djokovic was never a much better hard court player than Nadal. At most slightly better at times. Nadal would win a hard court slam only 5 months after that match, Nadal won a Masters going into the Olympics, and Nadal would produce the same result as Djokovic at the U.S Open (semis), so much for better by a wide margin on hard courts at that point.

abmk
04-14-2011, 07:20 AM
Djokovic was much better in the 2nd set but Nadal raised his game and fought hard to get back into it in the 3rd. Djokovic was still arguably slightly better but due to Nadals fight could never quite pull away and in the end Nadals resilence payed off. I dont see what is so complicated about that. Saying someone choked since they had one bad miss is ridiculous. A choke is a string of poor play caused by nerves, not one shot. Nobody sane who watched the match would consider it a choke.

oh yeah, is that why so many refer to roddick's missed volley in wimbledon 2009 as a choke ?????? really ? that too when the result at the end of that TB was just a set all and the match went deep into the 5th set.

This, a bad miss on MP, surely was a case of nerves , right ?

Djokovic was never a much better hard court player than Nadal. At most slightly better at times. Nadal would win a hard court slam only 5 months after that match, Nadal won a Masters going into the Olympics, and Nadal would produce the same result as Djokovic at the U.S Open (semis), so much for better by a wide margin on hard courts at that point.

I said on fast HC, not just HC overall. He had demolished him in cincy a week before the Olympics

abmk
04-14-2011, 07:21 AM
It would be a legitimate choke, if that had happened on his own matchpoint and he went on to lose. As it was, Nadal was clearly better in the 1st set and could have won it even more easily than 6-4, Djokovic was clearly better in the 2nd, and the 3rd was neck-and-neck until crunch time, which is when the cream rises to the top as usual.

When Federer wins set after routine set by breaking at the death, do we wail 'choke by opponent'? NO, we say Federer is (was, overall, in the past) the better pressure player, who has experience stepping up the pressure on the opponent right when it counts.

If the player misses simple overheads like that yes, that would be a case of nerves. If say federer/nadal raise their level and take it at the business end of the set, that's a different issue

stringertom
04-14-2011, 12:28 PM
The 5th & 6th majors are not Mickey Mouse events and Ralph was spotted a set in each final with a chance to stop an epic winstreak by a fast-closing pursuer. He didn't close. Once is not a choke but twice is developing a pattern, especially when you throw a double in during a decisive breaker.

When I review h2h results, something that happened last month trumps last year or almost 3 years ago, no matter what venue. Ralph's bandana is the one that slipped off the dome and wrapped itself around his neck during the last month.

ninman
04-14-2011, 12:31 PM
Because Nadal needs Tony to tell him what to do, as he has done in ever match Nadal has ever played.

namelessone
04-14-2011, 12:33 PM
Because Nadal needs Tony to tell him what to do, as he has done in ever match Nadal has ever played.

So what happened in the matches that Nadal has lost?

Got the signals mixed up?

namelessone
04-14-2011, 12:44 PM
The 5th & 6th majors are not Mickey Mouse events and Ralph was spotted a set in each final with a chance to stop an epic winstreak by a fast-closing pursuer. He didn't close. Once is not a choke but twice is developing a pattern, especially when you throw a double in during a decisive breaker.

When I review h2h results, something that happened last month trumps last year or almost 3 years ago, no matter what venue. Ralph's bandana is the one that slipped off the dome and wrapped itself around his neck during the last month.

LOL. Nadal is well known for his mental frailty.

This is kinda like the myth of Fed being scared of Nadal or being mentally weak(and winning 16 GS while being weak LOL).

Nadal ran Djoker ragged for about a set in IW and bit but his serve in second and third set was around 25%, even before Djoker broke him in the 2nd set. NO ONE wins against a top guy like Djoker with those service stats. Maybe on clay Nadal could pull off something like that, win with 25% serve in a set and 40 something overall. Nadal missed 11 FIRST SERVES IN A ROW. This has NEVER happened to him, regardless of venue or opponent, and Rafa has played on tougher ocassions than against Djoker in a MS HC final. Nadal's horrendeous serving day was an abberation, I've never seen anything like it.

In Miami, Nadal played bad in the first set and Djoker played worse, that's why he won the first set. Then both were so so with Djoker upping his level a bit. In fact Nadal did well to go a tiebreaker in the 3rd set, often having to rely on his serve to bail him out. And as Nadal himself said, he was within 2 points of winning the final so it's not like he was far.

And in the end, Nadal did not have one MP in those two finals. Sure, he is probably the toughest guy mentally out there but he's no robot, he can lose leads. Didn't Rafa lose a final to Davy after bageling him and having 2 MP's? S**t happens as they say. Rafa also won a lot more matches that looked lost to him so it's not all bad.

Djoker is a bad matchup for Rafa on any HC so I don't see why these results are a surprise. Rafa would have been straight setted against Djoker in the old days, in these two finals he won sets(one of the few to do so against Djoker in 2011) and was within 2 points of winning the second match. It's an improvement if anything.

stringertom
04-14-2011, 04:44 PM
Excuses, excuses & more excuses! So Ralph won sets. The scoreboard read Djokovic in three BOTH times! Yeah, Nadal won a set each, to join the exalted ranks of Ivan Dodig! Oh, if only he had served well! Not serving well is a mental weakness! You, the server, have complete control of how the point is started. Oh, please pay me a dollar for every time I've heard the HC card played. Or the grass card before Ralph won at Wimby.

I remind you: the OP contended Djok always chokes vs. Ralph at big events. I refuted it due to the results during the last month. Your boy choked, take the bitter pill and stop trying to find the patch of blue sky when it was dark and rainy all day. He's moved on. Can you?

ninman
04-14-2011, 04:55 PM
So what happened in the matches that Nadal has lost?

Got the signals mixed up?

Yeah that's right, getting coached illegally is a 100% guarantee of victory. Totally meaningless argument, the fact is he's done it, commentators have mentioned it, he's been fined for it, hell even Federer complained about it, and Nadal himself admitted it AFTER THE USO.

MichaelNadal
04-14-2011, 07:08 PM
LOL. Nadal is well known for his mental frailty.

This is kinda like the myth of Fed being scared of Nadal or being mentally weak(and winning 16 GS while being weak LOL).

Nadal ran Djoker ragged for about a set in IW and bit but his serve in second and third set was around 25%, even before Djoker broke him in the 2nd set. NO ONE wins against a top guy like Djoker with those service stats. Maybe on clay Nadal could pull off something like that, win with 25% serve in a set and 40 something overall. Nadal missed 11 FIRST SERVES IN A ROW. This has NEVER happened to him, regardless of venue or opponent, and Rafa has played on tougher ocassions than against Djoker in a MS HC final. Nadal's horrendeous serving day was an abberation, I've never seen anything like it.

In Miami, Nadal played bad in the first set and Djoker played worse, that's why he won the first set. Then both were so so with Djoker upping his level a bit. In fact Nadal did well to go a tiebreaker in the 3rd set, often having to rely on his serve to bail him out. And as Nadal himself said, he was within 2 points of winning the final so it's not like he was far.

And in the end, Nadal did not have one MP in those two finals. Sure, he is probably the toughest guy mentally out there but he's no robot, he can lose leads. Didn't Rafa lose a final to Davy after bageling him and having 2 MP's? S**t happens as they say. Rafa also won a lot more matches that looked lost to him so it's not all bad.

Djoker is a bad matchup for Rafa on any HC so I don't see why these results are a surprise. Rafa would have been straight setted against Djoker in the old days, in these two finals he won sets(one of the few to do so against Djoker in 2011) and was within 2 points of winning the second match. It's an improvement if anything.

Can I get an amen?

ChanceEncounter
04-14-2011, 07:43 PM
Djoker is a bad matchup for Rafa on any HC so I don't see why these results are a surprise. Rafa would have been straight setted against Djoker in the old days, in these two finals he won sets(one of the few to do so against Djoker in 2011) and was within 2 points of winning the second match. It's an improvement if anything.

What are you talking about? In Nadal's first H2H matchup with Djokovic on hard court (2007 IW), he beat him 6-2 7-5.

Then the next year, he beat him 6-3 6-2 at the same event. Djokovic's first victory over Nadal at Indian Wells came this year. I fail to see how that represents an "improvement."

namelessone
04-14-2011, 07:49 PM
What are you talking about? In Nadal's first H2H matchup with Djokovic on hard court (2007 IW), he beat him 6-2 7-5.

Then the next year, he beat him 6-3 6-2 at the same event. Djokovic's first victory over Nadal at Indian Wells came this year. I fail to see how that represents an "improvement."

2007 might as well be in the stone age, that's 4 seasons ago. Nadal has got older and Djoker got better, much better. 2007-2008 was early Djoker and didn't have the confidence to challenge top players regularly yet not to mention that his game wasn't as well rounded as today.

Look at Nadal's HC record against Djoker then get back to me. Most of Djoker's victories are straight sets.

Sentinel
04-14-2011, 07:55 PM
Nadal was saying he never beat me where it mattered before IW final....now look what. The stakes were high at IW and Miami.
my god, is that arrogant or what ? This beats anything Federer has ever said.

lucasschneider
04-14-2011, 07:59 PM
Has he choked recently? NO

CocaCola
04-15-2011, 07:00 AM
There was no choking in those 2 matches. Rafa was just better player at the moment and that's it.

CocaCola
04-15-2011, 07:01 AM
And yes, I stay behind it when I say that Djokovic is mentally very strong player.

li0scc0
04-15-2011, 09:51 AM
It seems like he has beaten nadal on hard courts many times in mickey mouse tournaments but he just cannot beat him when the stakes are really high or when it really matters.
Olympics 2008 and UO 2010? Your thoughts.

The better player wins.
At the US Open 2010, Nadal was the better player at that time, and Nadal won.
Had they faced each other at the Australian Open 2011, Djokovic would have won because Djokovic was the better player at that time.

namelessone
04-15-2011, 10:50 AM
Excuses, excuses & more excuses! So Ralph won sets. The scoreboard read Djokovic in three BOTH times! Yeah, Nadal won a set each, to join the exalted ranks of Ivan Dodig! Oh, if only he had served well! Not serving well is a mental weakness! You, the server, have complete control of how the point is started. Oh, please pay me a dollar for every time I've heard the HC card played. Or the grass card before Ralph won at Wimby.

I remind you: the OP contended Djok always chokes vs. Ralph at big events. I refuted it due to the results during the last month. Your boy choked, take the bitter pill and stop trying to find the patch of blue sky when it was dark and rainy all day. He's moved on. Can you?

Oh brother don't even know where to begin with this crap. Logical it ain't.

Let me put in simple terms: Djoker's HC best>Rafa's HC best. Nadal needs to stay at a very high level to be with Djoker on even terms on HC, yes, even slow HC. Nadal was bullying Djoker in IW in the first set, there was no display of weakness from him at all and Djoker wasn't killing it, he wasn't putting much pressure on Nadal when all of a sudden Nadal can't put a 1st serve in. An abberation as it has NEVER happened to Nadal against Djoker or anyone else, to have a 25% on first serve in a set in a final. This let Djoker back in and he dominated from then on as Nadal was visibly upset with his serve. Djoker mowed Rafa down in sets 2 and 3.

In Miami both guys sucked in the first set and Nadal sucked less so he won it. Then, in the second set Djoker upped his level, Nadal remained so-so, lost the second and was lucky to take the third to a tiebreak as Djoker was into almost every Nadal service game.

These are not chokes my friend. A choke is when you have a stranglehold on a match, are within closing distance and can't close it out and the match gets turned on its head. For example, if two guys go head to head and in the end one guy doesn't concentrate and loses that's not a choke, it's tennis, someone has to give in, it's in the nature of sport. A choke would be like being one set up, having MP or having shots to break late in the second set and losing.

A Nadal choke would be losing Doha final after bageling Davydenko and having 2 MP's. That was a very strong advantage and he lost it. Or losing to Ljubicic while being one set up and having 0-40 on Ljuba's serve at 3-3 in the second set.

In these two matches you mention with Djoker as chokes Nadal did not have ONE MP. Not ONE. He didn't even break first in sets 2 and 3 of these finals.

Come back once you learn the meaning of choke.

ksbh
04-15-2011, 12:50 PM
In terms of mental strength, I'd rate as follows-

1. Nadal
2. Djokovic
3. Del Potro
4. Hewitt
5. Federer

unrateable- Andy Roddick

stringertom
04-15-2011, 02:09 PM
Rant rant rant! Scoreboard says Nadal was spotted a set each time and LOST! He didn't close, he choked! Threw a double in in a third set breaker! That's a choke! Admit it, I refuted the OPer's claim that Djok always chokes in the big one. One of his examples was '10 USO. Nowhere near a choke according to your definition. You didn't get all huffy with him over his use of the "c" word.

Come back and post when you can stay on message instead of clouding the issue with your semantics! BTW, $1 for every HC excuse usage, OK? Your boy won a HC major last year so your argument is empty. He is now expected to compete on the surface. That's what champions do: compete instead of hiding behind now-empty excuses.

rovex
04-15-2011, 02:35 PM
Rant rant rant! Scoreboard says Nadal was spotted a set each time and LOST! He didn't close, he choked! Threw a double in in a third set breaker! That's a choke! Admit it, I refuted the OPer's claim that Djok always chokes in the big one. One of his examples was '10 USO. Nowhere near a choke according to your definition. You didn't get all huffy with him over his use of the "c" word.

Come back and post when you can stay on message instead of clouding the issue with your semantics! BTW, $1 for every HC excuse usage, OK? Your boy won a HC major last year so your argument is empty. He is now expected to compete on the surface. That's what champions do: compete instead of hiding behind now-empty excuses.

Ralph definitely felt the pressure in the 3rd set in indian wells and the tie break in miami. I guess you could say he was anxious of losing.

YodaKnowsBest
04-15-2011, 02:50 PM
Djokovic didn't choke at any of those matches. Nadal was a better player back then. The tables are turned now that the King has arrived.

Tony48
04-15-2011, 03:05 PM
Olympics - choke
U.S. Open - not really a choke; it was Nadal's tournament to lose anyway. My guess was Djokovic was happy to have finally beaten Federer

dominikk1985
04-15-2011, 03:07 PM
And yes, I stay behind it when I say that Djokovic is mentally very strong player.

I think this is two sided. he can be mentally strong but he is somewhat a sunshine player. he needs to feel good and can get ****ed if he has a bad day. if he is on he can beat anybody of course but he also had some dissapointing losses against guys he shouldn't loose against (which almost never happpened to fedal).

so I would not say he is as stable as fed or nadal but he is definitely not weak mentally.

I think to reach the fedal consistency he needs to improve his ability to suck it up and play if he has a bad day.

but I do also think that he reached a new level. just because he lost some important matches before it doesn't mean that can change.

novak is in his prime now and I think he has enough mental toughness to beat nadal in a best of 5 match.

stringertom
04-15-2011, 03:38 PM
Ralph definitely felt the pressure in the 3rd set in indian wells and the tie break in miami. I guess you could say he was anxious of losing.

Hats off to you for your brief and to-the-point analysis!