PDA

View Full Version : Is Venus Williams at her best unbeatable


Pages : [1] 2

NadalAgassi
04-18-2011, 09:13 AM
Do you believe Venus Williams at her best was unbeatable. By unbeatable I mean unbeatable even by Serena Williams at her best, even by Henin at her best, even by past greats like Navratilova, Evert, or Graf at their best.

tenis1
04-18-2011, 09:22 AM
Henin or Evert or Seles would beat her on clay any time they play, no matter how good she plays.

Hence not unbeatable.

billnepill
04-18-2011, 09:23 AM
lol, I read that many times.

You have to give as a surface though. Obviously Venus's best is enough to beat Serena at Wimbledon and hence only few players can touch her on that surface in her best years.

Bringing past greats into this is tricky, as I am sure you realize.

P.S Now I noticed you put grass in the poll options. Still, UNBEATABLE sounds way too extreme, no? She will victorious most of the times, playing her best on grass, but def not unbeatable.

Ronaldo
04-18-2011, 09:27 AM
Quite a few players at their best are unbeatable. How long can they sustain it? A set, a match, one tournament?

ollinger
04-18-2011, 09:31 AM
Nobody's "best" is ever unbeatable for more than 5 years, simply because raising the bar of excellence gives up and coming players new standards to train for -- and exceed.

jones101
04-18-2011, 09:50 AM
Yes, I've always thought that about her, but if her serve/fh is off, she can be extremely erratic, its the gift and curse of being a fan of Venus - her inconsistency.

Though she is too injury prone to dominate event after event, she can beat anybody on her day.

I also think she has the most clay titles out of any active player, and top 3 best win loss % on the surface too. Very underrated player on the clay IMO.

jones101
04-18-2011, 09:54 AM
I must add I think her and Steffi in thir primes on a grass court is one of my alltime fantasy matchups.

Baby Venus played a past prime Graf and they had an amazing match.

Steffi, at her best, however, was unbeatable!

Gimmick
04-18-2011, 10:04 AM
The saddest part of Venus's legacy is how many matches she allowed her little sis to take early on to build Serena's confidence instead of crushing her. I think she really believed when she gave Serena the room to win that she could take it back after Serena had a few GS's under her belt but age/injury caught up with her faster than she was able to shore up her own legacy.

I'm sure she doesn't regret it because she loves her little sis but from the standpoint of a fan who intensely dislikes Serena but admires Venus I will do the regretting for her.

single_handed_champion
04-18-2011, 10:24 AM
Yes, Venus is far more unbeatable than Serena, for instance. But not as unbeatable as Graf, for sure, or Evert or Navratilova. She is only not unbeatable on clay.

tenniswarrior
04-18-2011, 10:26 AM
Nobody is unbeatable.

MichaelNadal
04-18-2011, 10:40 AM
I think the only person that can beat her at her best is Serena, even then it's really close though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWH_AlmuZAk

Crazy match.

tenniswarrior
04-18-2011, 10:43 AM
Serena vs Venus is a little like Nadal vs Nadal, anyone agree?

NadalAgassi
04-18-2011, 10:44 AM
For the record even though I am the thread starter I dont think Venus at her best is even close to unbeatable. As another poster pointed out Venus playing her best would be destroyed by Evert, Seles, Graf, or Henin playing their best on clay, so that already defeats the idea at her best she is unbeatable point blank. If you restrict it to even just grass I think even there that there are players who at their best could beat her at hers including Serena, Graf, Navratilova, and possibly some of the past streaky lesser known greats like Goolagong or Mandlikova. The 2005 Wimbledon final was an example of Venus playing close to her best and she had to save a match point vs the duck footed Davenport, and was trailing almost the whole match. The 2001 Wimbledon final was Venus playing her absolute best at her career peak and she still lost a set to a baby Henin on her worst surface, which she was never that good on even in her later prime years (she never won Wimbledon remember).

So the easy vote for me was no.

Ronaldo
04-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Nobody's "best" is ever unbeatable for more than 5 years, simply because raising the bar of excellence gives up and coming players new standards to train for -- and exceed.

Venus v Serena?

tenniswarrior
04-18-2011, 10:45 AM
Also, she isn't unbeatable because she can get injured and have to retire, which counts as a loss. :)

DRII
04-18-2011, 12:58 PM
For the record even though I am the thread starter I dont think Venus at her best is even close to unbeatable. As another poster pointed out Venus playing her best would be destroyed by Evert, Seles, Graf, or Henin playing their best on clay, so that already defeats the idea at her best she is unbeatable point blank. If you restrict it to even just grass I think even there that there are players who at their best could beat her at hers including Serena, Graf, Navratilova, and possibly some of the past streaky lesser known greats like Goolagong or Mandlikova. The 2005 Wimbledon final was an example of Venus playing close to her best and she had to save a match point vs the duck footed Davenport, and was trailing almost the whole match. The 2001 Wimbledon final was Venus playing her absolute best at her career peak and she still lost a set to a baby Henin on her worst surface, which she was never that good on even in her later prime years (she never won Wimbledon remember).

So the easy vote for me was no.

Oh My Goodness!!! I know you started this thread to mock me and my opinion the peak Venus beats any other woman in peak form on a nuetral surface (medium to fast hardcourt).

But to claim that 2005 Wimbledon final Venus was her peak is absolutely ridiculous! I beleive she was coming off of injuries recently that year and had played relatively little tennis - she was no where near peak. She was playing better in her 2008 win over Serena at Wimbledon, actually 2008 was the last year both sisters were playing well at the same time...

That 2005 final only demonstrated Venus' mental toughness and improvizational skills, thats it.

Anyway, more than one person agreed with me. So you have been proven wrong again!!!

NadalAgassi
04-18-2011, 01:04 PM
Oh My Goodness!!! I know you started this thread to mock me and my opinion the peak Venus beats any other woman in peak form on a nuetral surface (medium to fast hardcourt).

But to claim that 2005 Wimbledon final Venus was her peak is absolutely ridiculous! I beleive she was coming off of injuries recently that year and had played relatively little tennis - she was no where near peak. She was playing better in her 2008 win over Serena at Wimbledon, actually 2008 was the last year both sisters were playing well at the same time...

That 2005 final only demonstrated Venus' mental toughness and improvizational skills, thats it.

Anyway, more than one person agreed with me. So you have been proven wrong again!!!

Last I checked there were alot more votes for NO then YES idiot. :lol:

I didnt say the 2005 Wimbledon final was Venus at her best, I said near her best. And it obviously was otherwise the match wouldnt have been called a classic at the time. 2001 Wimbledon final was Venus at her absolute best and she went to 3 sets with a pre prime Henin on her worst surface by far which she wouldnt win a big title on even in her much later peak years. Yes Venus at her best sure is unbeatable. :rolleyes:

And Venus's best surface by far is grass, so your point about a medium to fast hard court being where she would own all in history at their mutual best is even more laugahble. A women who won her last non grass big title at 21 cannot be touched on a hard court at her best, is about as logical as arguing Seles at her best on grass is unbeatable or Serena at her best on clay cant be touched by any women ever.

MagneticCurls
04-18-2011, 01:05 PM
Venus was definitely tough at her best. I doubt Graf or Serena could beat her, but probably Seles could.

tenis1
04-18-2011, 01:10 PM
Venus was definitely tough at her best. I doubt Graf or Serena could beat her, but probably Seles could.

I approve this message.

BTW I didn't realize what this thread was about, but not a nice thing to do by NadalAgassi.

LDVTennis
04-18-2011, 01:13 PM
Venus was definitely tough at her best. I doubt Graf or Serena could beat her, but probably Seles could.

Seles couldn't beat Hingis at her peak, but somehow she was going to beat Venus.

Thanks for the laugh.

As to Venus, if she were truly unbeatable, why didn't she ever win RG?

Ronaldo
04-18-2011, 01:13 PM
Venus was definitely tough at her best. I doubt Graf or Serena could beat her, but probably Seles could.

On grass???

LDVTennis
04-18-2011, 01:15 PM
On grass???

Yes, one would have to be "on grass" to think Seles could beat Venus at her "unbeatable" best.

That is what you meant.

tenniswarrior
04-18-2011, 01:16 PM
She isn't unbeatable. I think about beating her all the time. ;)

tenis1
04-18-2011, 01:19 PM
Seles couldn't beat Hingis at her peak, but somehow she was going to beat Venus.

Thanks for the laugh.

As to Venus, if she were truly unbeatable, why didn't she ever win RG?

You are wrong. Seles who played Hingis wis demoralized, mentally injured, overweight Seles and was far from her peak. Hence your comment does not prove anything.

Peak "no stabbing" Seles could beat anyone on clay.

Joe Pike
04-18-2011, 01:24 PM
Oh My Goodness!!! I know you started this thread to mock me and my opinion the peak Venus beats any other woman in peak form on a nuetral surface (medium to fast hardcourt).

But to claim that 2005 Wimbledon final Venus was her peak is absolutely ridiculous! I beleive she was coming off of injuries recently that year and had played relatively little tennis - she was no where near peak. She was playing better in her 2008 win over Serena at Wimbledon, actually 2008 was the last year both sisters were playing well at the same time...

That 2005 final only demonstrated Venus' mental toughness and improvizational skills, thats it.

Anyway, more than one person agreed with me. So you have been proven wrong again!!!


This is funny - you declare every match which Venus lost as a non-peak match.
So we have to look at the scorelines of great players' wins against top opposition.

I give you an example:
Steffi Graf beat
in 86 a #1 player 62 63
in 87 a #1 player 63 62, a #2 player 62 61, a #3 player 62 61
in 88 a #3 player 61 62
in 89 a #3 player 63 61
in 91 a #1 player 64 63
in 92 a #1 player 62 61
in 94 a #2 player 60 62 and 62 61
in 95 a #3 player 62 62
in 96 a #2 player 63 61
in 99 a #3 player 62 60.

Those opponents were named Navratilova (18 slams), Evert (18 slams), Seles (9 slams), Sanchez (4 slams) among others.
Matches were on grass, clay, indoors, fast HC, slow HC.

What about Venus?

Gorecki
04-18-2011, 01:26 PM
Venus was definitely tough at her best. I doubt Graf or Serena could beat her, but probably Seles could.

yet Graf has a Positive H2H vs her...

go figure.

Anyways, Venus at her best is also the most accomplished nuclear scientist and the best singer in Britain's got talent (granted she was given some sort of british citizenship - i say welsh...)

Joe Pike
04-18-2011, 01:29 PM
Venus was definitely tough at her best. I doubt Graf or Serena could beat her, but probably Seles could.

And which would be the surface on which Seles could beat Venus but Steffi not?
:):):)

cucio
04-18-2011, 01:30 PM
If Venus indeed played at her very best, I don't think even Nadal in Monte-Carlo could win a set against her.

tenniswarrior
04-18-2011, 01:30 PM
And which would be the surface on which Seles could beat Venus but Steffi not?
:):):)

Carpet, stained with blood.

Gorecki
04-18-2011, 01:32 PM
Venus at her best makes the sun revolve around the earth!

DRII
04-18-2011, 01:47 PM
Last I checked there were alot more votes for NO then YES idiot. :lol:

I didnt say the 2005 Wimbledon final was Venus at her best, I said near her best. And it obviously was otherwise the match wouldnt have been called a classic at the time. 2001 Wimbledon final was Venus at her absolute best and she went to 3 sets with a pre prime Henin on her worst surface by far which she wouldnt win a big title on even in her much later peak years. Yes Venus at her best sure is unbeatable. :rolleyes:

And Venus's best surface by far is grass, so your point about a medium to fast hard court being where she would own all in history at their mutual best is even more laugahble. A women who won her last non grass big title at 21 cannot be touched on a hard court at her best, is about as logical as arguing Seles at her best on grass is unbeatable or Serena at her best on clay cant be touched by any women ever.

You keep proving to everyone that you are incredibly illogical! You said that I was the only to think peak Venus is the best - proven wrong!

I chose to concentrate on a medium to fast hardcourt because it is a nuetral surface, not because Venus has the best chance to win on it! Venus is best on grass and I don't think anyone could touch her on it (at peak). Graf would come the closest!

Also, Venus won the 2008 WTA Championships, a very big title on a hardcourt, way past the age of 21. Get your facts straight!

Joe Pike
04-18-2011, 02:07 PM
You keep proving to everyone that you are incredibly illogical! You said that I was the only to think peak Venus is the best - proven wrong!

I chose to concentrate on a medium to fast hardcourt because it is a nuetral surface, not because Venus has the best chance to win on it! Venus is best on grass and I don't think anyone could touch her on it (at peak). Graf would come the closest!

Also, Venus won the 2008 WTA Championships, a very big title on a hardcourt, way past the age of 21. Get your facts straight!


Who do you think was closer to her peak in the Wimbledon 99 quarters - Steffi Graf or Venus Williams?

TMF
04-18-2011, 02:17 PM
I can't believe there's posters actually vote Venus is unbeatable. It's good to be a fan of certain player, but come on...no one is unbeatable.

NadalAgassi
04-18-2011, 02:18 PM
Also, Venus won the 2008 WTA Championships, a very big title on a hardcourt, way past the age of 21. Get your facts straight!

Real big titles in tennis are the slams of course which is what I was referring to. OK if you want to really stretch further though and include WTA Championships, Miami, Olympics, Indian Wells, and Canada, all as big hard court titles, then Venus and her hardcourt GOAT game has won a grand total of 1 big hard court title since turning 22 out of the atleast 6 played per year. Happy now. And add to that she never won Australia and won her only WTA Championships at almost 30 as you pointed out, so basically at 2 of the 3 biggest hard court events she went almost her whole career without winning. Yet this is the player who at her best cant be touched on a neutral hard court, so Iguess she just never plays her best according to you, LOL!

I chose to concentrate on a medium to fast hardcourt because it is a nuetral surface, not because Venus has the best chance to win on it! Venus is best on grass and I don't think anyone could touch her on it (at peak). Graf would come the closest!


Right and I suppose next you are going to tell everyone Venus at her best beats Evert, Henin, or Graf at their best on clay, and that Venus at her best beats Navratilova at her best on carpet. Keep the comedy rolling for all of us.


For the record since she was brought up in this thread I do think Venus is a horrible matchup for Seles so would definitely beat Seles if both were playing their best. However she isnt such a bad matchup for alot of other players.

DRII
04-18-2011, 03:25 PM
Who do you think was closer to her peak in the Wimbledon 99 quarters - Steffi Graf or Venus Williams?

I think Graf was far closer as far as competence and tennis acumen to her peak but was physically a step or two lower.

Venus was near her peak physically, she was very lean and quick but in 2001 she was stronger and more robust and balanced. However, as far as tennis competence Venus was far from her peak; she was much less consistent especially on her forehand and her ground strokes in general lacked the consistent penetration of 2001. I think venus' defense was pretty much all there but her explosive offense was not as linear and continuous.

So overall, Graf was closer IMO.

DRII
04-18-2011, 03:28 PM
I can't believe there's posters actually vote Venus is unbeatable. It's good to be a fan of certain player, but come on...no one is unbeatable.

Blame the OP's inability to properly phrase a question!

TMF
04-18-2011, 03:47 PM
Blame the OP's inability to properly phrase a question!

I admit this is a poor thread. But for you to believe this is wrong then why even bother take your part on the poll, and vote Venus at her best would be unbeatable?:confused:

TMF
04-18-2011, 03:51 PM
I must add I think her and Steffi in thir primes on a grass court is one of my alltime fantasy matchups.

Baby Venus played a past prime Graf and they had an amazing match.

Steffi, at her best, however, was unbeatable!

And yet, you voted Venus at her best is unbeatable. Unbelievable !

heftylefty
04-18-2011, 03:56 PM
No one is "unbeatable" at their best. Not Venus. Not Graf. Not both Martinas.

That being said. Venus on her game is very hard to beat. She moves better than any woman close to her height. And the only play on the WTA Tour that can outhit her is her sister.

TMF
04-18-2011, 04:20 PM
No one is "unbeatable" at their best. Not Venus. Not Graf. Not both Martinas.

That being said. Venus on her game is very hard to beat. She moves better than any woman close to her height. And the only play on the WTA Tour that can outhit her is her sister.

I disagree. Graf's big fh can outhit her on grass(and fast grass). Stosur huge fh can outhit her on clay.

Objective Danny
04-18-2011, 04:25 PM
Martina 'tennis' Hingis, when she was at the top of her game, defeated Venus on a regular basic.

Ronaldo
04-18-2011, 04:52 PM
I can't believe there's posters actually vote Venus is unbeatable. It's good to be a fan of certain player, but come on...no one is unbeatable.

Not no one but Nole

DRII
04-18-2011, 05:31 PM
This is funny - you declare every match which Venus lost as a non-peak match.
So we have to look at the scorelines of great players' wins against top opposition.

I give you an example:
Steffi Graf beat
in 86 a #1 player 62 63
in 87 a #1 player 63 62, a #2 player 62 61, a #3 player 62 61
in 88 a #3 player 61 62
in 89 a #3 player 63 61
in 91 a #1 player 64 63
in 92 a #1 player 62 61
in 94 a #2 player 60 62 and 62 61
in 95 a #3 player 62 62
in 96 a #2 player 63 61
in 99 a #3 player 62 60.

Those opponents were named Navratilova (18 slams), Evert (18 slams), Seles (9 slams), Sanchez (4 slams) among others.
Matches were on grass, clay, indoors, fast HC, slow HC.

What about Venus?

Uhm fyi,

Venus won the 2005 Wimbledon final!

Tanya
04-18-2011, 07:41 PM
In my opinion Venus at her best is the most explosive and athletic female tennis player of all time. When everything is clicking, Venus has every weapon in the book. Bomb of a serve, great foot speed, powerful groundstrokes, solid net game. Whether or not her best is "unbeatable" I don't know, but her best is certainly extremely difficult to defeat.

NadalAgassi
04-18-2011, 07:51 PM
In my opinion Venus at her best is the most explosive and athletic female tennis player of all time.

Interesting. So you consider her more "explosive" than Serena at her best and more athletic than Navratilova or Graf at their best. I guess I could see a best combination of both maybe, but not quite either seperately.

LDVTennis
04-18-2011, 10:21 PM
In my opinion Venus at her best is the most explosive and athletic female tennis player of all time.

Not flatfooted on a dropshot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_n789J40p8

Caught flatfooted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTHduZci8ak.

Athletic (all-court):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GluvflOe4R0

Not athletic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlIiRkHKQs4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dli3Inq26Y0

jones101
04-18-2011, 11:38 PM
And yet, you voted Venus at her best is unbeatable. Unbelievable !

I disagree. Graf's big fh can outhit her on grass(and fast grass). Stosur huge fh can outhit her on clay.

Yes, I do think Venus at her best is as close to unbeatable as you can get, yet I feel Steffi at her best is also, whats 'unbelievable' about that? Cant I think of more than one player? Sorry, I did't realise!

Also Venus is 4-0 against Stosur, and has not dropped a set against her. And is 3-0 against Stosur ON CLAY. She also beat her last year 6-3 6-3 in Stosur's career best year on the surface.

Venus is an absolute horrible matchup for Sam IMO. She is tall enough to handle her kick serve, moves better than Sam, and can hit harder overall on both wings.

NadalAgassi
04-18-2011, 11:45 PM
Stosur is a joke. I mean she is a good player but the hype around her after her French Open run last year was ridiculous. And it wasnt that great a performance was it was made out to be. She beats a crappy Henin who was at about 40% of her old level in 3 tough sets, then barely beat Serena on clay which isnt that big a deal at this point in Serena's career on that particular surface, then an abysmal Jankovic who as usual folded in her big opportunity. Then in the final she is hyped up to blow old lady Schiavone off the court and Schiavone outclasses her and proves since to be the better player of the two as well. On any surface other than clay she cant even remotely contend.

I doubt she ever makes another slam final.

And yes Venus at her best would easily beat Stosur on any surface, even clay. Maybe she isnt a better clay courter, especialy today, but Stosur's game is an easy matchup for her.

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 02:07 AM
Remarkable this thread exists when Venus is 30 yrs old. Sharapova, at her best was unbeatable on every surface except clay. But how long did that last? The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong—but how come? One good reason: Ours is an imperfect world, full to the brim with imperfect people. Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.

cocolate
04-19-2011, 03:17 AM
Do you believe Venus Williams at her best was unbeatable. By unbeatable I mean unbeatable even by Serena Williams at her best, even by Henin at her best, even by past greats like Navratilova, Evert, or Graf at their best.

One thing is sure....she is unbeatable by me at my best:))

DRII
04-19-2011, 05:13 AM
In my opinion Venus at her best is the most explosive and athletic female tennis player of all time. When everything is clicking, Venus has every weapon in the book. Bomb of a serve, great foot speed, powerful groundstrokes, solid net game. Whether or not her best is "unbeatable" I don't know, but her best is certainly extremely difficult to defeat.

Agreed 100%!, but I think Venus' best is the best of all time, especially on faster surfaces...

Where were you when I needed defending, when I have brought up threads like this??? LOL!

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-19-2011, 05:36 AM
No one is "unbeatable" at their best. Not Venus. Not Graf. Not both Martinas.

True above all else, and this applies to the men's side too. Everyone has peak performance moments in a career, but someone will have your number--even if by a few lucky games--during strong performance periods.

That being said. Venus on her game is very hard to beat. She moves better than any woman close to her height. And the only play on the WTA Tour that can outhit her is her sister.

True, and the "very hard" is important in that it leaves the door open to a player being capable of losing, even at their best.

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 08:13 AM
True above all else, and this applies to the men's side too. Everyone has peak performance moments in a career, but someone will have your number--even if by a few lucky games--during strong performance periods.



True, and the "very hard" is important in that it leaves the door open to a player being capable of losing, even at their best.

Yes, Mac/Lendl 1984 FO.

Povl Carstensen
04-19-2011, 08:50 AM
I am unbeatable at my hereto unseen best.

Federerx16
04-19-2011, 09:05 AM
Y'all a mess.

LDVTennis
04-19-2011, 09:42 AM
I am unbeatable at my hereto unseen best.

Apparently so is Venus.

From the comments above, it seems Venus can be "unbeatable" one minute in a match and then "beatable" the next.

In the history of the sport, Venus probably goes from "unbeatable" to "beatable" faster than anyone. Heck, it could happen even within one point. That fast.

That must explain why she never won RG. Points there take too long. LOL.

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 10:03 AM
Apparently so is Venus.

From the comments above, it seems Venus can be "unbeatable" one minute in a match and then "beatable" the next.

In the history of the sport, Venus probably goes from "unbeatable" to "beatable" faster than anyone. Heck, it could happen even within one point. That fast.

That must explain why she never won RG. Points there take too long. LOL.

1st and 2nd serves take too long too.

NadalAgassi
04-19-2011, 10:07 AM
Sharapova, at her best was unbeatable on every surface except clay.

That was absolutely never true. Both Williams sisters could always beat Maria even at her best on grass and hard courts. Clijsters, Davenport, and Henin were also capable of beating Maria at their best on hard courts (and Davenport on grass too) if they played great enough, although less certain too as she atleast had potential to overpower the 2 Belgians and outrun and outwill Davenport. Heck I have seen Mauresmo beat Sharapova playing her best before. And I know you discounted clay but Maria playing her best on clay would lose something like 6-3, 6-2 most of the time to Henin playing her best on clay.

Joe Pike
04-19-2011, 10:08 AM
In my opinion Venus at her best is the most explosive and athletic female tennis player of all time. When everything is clicking, Venus has every weapon in the book. Bomb of a serve, great foot speed, powerful groundstrokes, solid net game. ...


But what about keeping the ball within the lines ... ?

LDVTennis
04-19-2011, 10:11 AM
1st and 2nd serves take too long too.

Brilliant point!

With Venus, I think if one blinks one could just miss seeing her at her "unbeatable best."

MotherMarjorie
04-19-2011, 10:13 AM
Let Mother Marjorie cook on this:

Arguably, Venus' "best" occured during 2000-2002. The problem occured when a player named Jennifer Marie Capriati awakened from a seven year sleep.

Let's look at what Jennifer accomplished during Venus' "best":

2001 Australian Open Champion
2001 French Open Champion
2001 Wimbledon semifinalist
2001 US Open semifinalist
2002 Australian Open Champion

2001
WTA Player of the Year
ITF Women's Singles World Champion
Associated Press Female Athlete of the Year
Reuters Sportswoman of the Year
SI.com Sportswoman of the Year
Laureus World Comeback of the Year
U.S. Olympic Committee Sports Woman of the Year
WTA Player of the Month

2002
Laureus Female Athlete of the Year
ESPY Award Best Comeback Athlete

Weeks at Number One:
Jennifer Capriati 17
Venus Williams 11

It must have been disheartening for Venus that during her peak, Jennifer was able to amass such a great run, only to watch Serena surpass her in 2002. Mother Marjorie feels that Venus never psychologically recovered from it, and only focused on grass where she excelled.

Venus should have had the career Serena had but wasn't psychologically durable enough to sustain the ups and downs of professional tennis.

Venus' peak didn't display the type of dominance we saw with Graf, Evert, and Navratilova. Partly because Venus just wasn't that great outside of grass tennis.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

Federerx16
04-19-2011, 10:30 AM
Yeah I'm sure Capriati who never beat Venus was the bane of Queen Vee's existence.

Come again boo
http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lf5anpocTt1qfzf2to1_400.gif

NadalAgassi
04-19-2011, 10:53 AM
Capriati never beat Venus but that doesnt mean Venus wasnt neccessarily bothered by her success. Basically any event Venus didnt win it seemed Capriati won which gave her a record very much on par with Venus's even at her peak.

Venus's head to head with alot of players are also aided by her inability to make finals or semis of big slow surface events and often fading out of contention altogether during her non peak years. Take her 7-2 head to head with Henin for instance, does anyone think that head to head would be like this if they played more then one match after January 2003 and more than 2 matches ever on clay. And Venus never played Capriati on clay where Jennifer would have had a 50% chance or better of winning, or even on rebound ace where Jennifer also would have had a real shot to win. They only played on medium to fast courts where Venus was favored over everyone until Serena came along. If Federer crashed out early nearly all the time on clay and then went into a long 3-4 year slump (Venus style, not Federer style) once Nadal began to surge in 2008, he might have a 5-2 or similar head to head with Nadal for instance.

MotherMarjorie
04-19-2011, 10:54 AM
Yeah I'm sure Capriati who never beat Venus was the bane of Queen Vee's existence.

Come again boo
Boo? Mother Marjorie isn't current on all the street langue today. She avoids it similar to street meat vendors.

At Venus' best, not only was she very beatable (as seen by her modest record), but other players were equally dominant during Venus' peak (Capriati and Serena Williams).

Since the US Open 2001, Venus has only won three grand slam tournaments. That's ten years and a whole lot of self-doubt.

Mother Marjorie didn't create this history, history spoke for itself. Oh, yes it did. Venus is the Hana Mandlikova of her generation.

Mother Marjorie guesses King Richard Williams was right when he said in 2000 that Venus Williams would soon retire from tennis, because her results pretty much indicates she did.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 11:01 AM
That was absolutely never true. Both Williams sisters could always beat Maria even at her best on grass and hard courts. Clijsters, Davenport, and Henin were also capable of beating Maria at their best on hard courts (and Davenport on grass too) if they played great enough, although less certain too as she atleast had potential to overpower the 2 Belgians and outrun and outwill Davenport. Heck I have seen Mauresmo beat Sharapova playing her best before. And I know you discounted clay but Maria playing her best on clay would lose something like 6-3, 6-2 most of the time to Henin playing her best on clay.

Maria was the Wimbledon Champ, no one beat her. She was the Aus Open champ, no one beat her. She had her moments.

MotherMarjorie
04-19-2011, 11:08 AM
But what about keeping the ball within the lines ... ?
Well, that has always been a problem for the aloof one.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 11:10 AM
Heard lines were meant to be hit.

MotherMarjorie
04-19-2011, 11:12 AM
Maria was the Wimbledon Champ, no one beat her. She was the Aus Open champ, no one beat her. She had her moments.
Maria played the 2004 Wimbledon finals well enough to beat anyone from the current generation at their peak at Wimbledon.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

MotherMarjorie
04-19-2011, 11:12 AM
Maria was the Wimbledon Champ, no one beat her. She was the Aus Open champ, no one beat her. She had her moments.
Maria played the 2004 Wimbledon finals well enough to beat anyone from the current generation at their peak at Wimbledon.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 11:20 AM
Maria played the 2004 Wimbledon finals well enough to beat anyone from the current generation at their peak at Wimbledon.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

She would definitely beat our current Masha. 2008 Masha, not so sure. Nearly as unbeatable as Venus.

TMF
04-19-2011, 11:32 AM
That was absolutely never true. Both Williams sisters could always beat Maria even at her best on grass and hard courts. Clijsters, Davenport, and Henin were also capable of beating Maria at their best on hard courts (and Davenport on grass too) if they played great enough, although less certain too as she atleast had potential to overpower the 2 Belgians and outrun and outwill Davenport. Heck I have seen Mauresmo beat Sharapova playing her best before. And I know you discounted clay but Maria playing her best on clay would lose something like 6-3, 6-2 most of the time to Henin playing her best on clay.

If a baby Maria who barely reached puberty can destroyed an overgrown Serena on grass, that doesn’t say a lot about the WS could always beat Maria at her best. I know some people don’t like Maria b/c she’s beautiful and makes way more money than anyone on the tour. Not surprise you are not being objective. :mad:

NadalAgassi
04-19-2011, 11:32 AM
Maria was the Wimbledon Champ, no one beat her. She was the Aus Open champ, no one beat her. She had her moments.

Kuznetsova was a U.S Open and French Open Champion. Nobody beat her. I guess at her best she is unbeatable too. :lol:

Just because nobody beats you does not mean you were unbeatable.

tennis_pro
04-19-2011, 11:33 AM
I think Federer would smoke her 0 and 0 at his best.

Oh, that's not what you mean...

NadalAgassi
04-19-2011, 11:33 AM
If a baby Maria who barely reached puberty can destroyed an overgrown Serena on grass, that doesn’t say a lot about the WS could always beat Maria at her best. I know some people don’t like Maria b/c she’s beautiful and makes way more money than anyone on the tour. Not surprise you are not being objective. :mad:

What is the head of Serena and Maria. Would any version of Maria beat the Serena of the 2007 Australian Open final. Would any version of Maria beat the Venus of the 2005 Wimbledon semis where Maria admits she played the best she could have and still got thumped. Dont be an idiot.

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 11:38 AM
Kuznetsova was a U.S Open and French Open Champion. Nobody beat her. I guess at her best she is unbeatable too. :lol:

Just because nobody beats you does not mean you were unbeatable.

Yes, Kuzzy was unbeatable, at least by the players she faced at that time and on that surface.

NadalAgassi
04-19-2011, 11:41 AM
Yes, Kuzzy was unbeatable

Let me guess, Majoli and Myskina were unbeatable when they won their slams too right. Even Majoli who was down 7-5, 4-0 to Davenport (on clay) at that French, went 3 sets with Grossman and Dragomir, and barely won 7-5 in the 3rd set over a badly off form 70 unforced error Coetzer in the semis. :lol:

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 11:42 AM
Let me guess, Majoli and Myskina were unbeatable when they won their slams too right. Even Majoli who was down 7-5, 4-0 to Davenport (on clay) at that French, went 3 sets with Grossman and Dragomir, and barely won 7-5 in the 3rd set over a badly off form 70 unforced error Coetzer in the semis. :lol:

Yes, against the players she faced.

tennis_pro
04-19-2011, 11:42 AM
Yes, Kuzzy was unbeatable, at least by the players she faced at that time and on that surface.

you mean UNBEATEN, that's a difference

adidasman
04-19-2011, 11:42 AM
If a baby Maria who barely reached puberty can destroyed an overgrown Serena on grass, that doesn’t say a lot about the WS could always beat Maria at her best. I know some people don’t like Maria b/c she’s beautiful and makes way more money than anyone on the tour. Not surprise you are not being objective. :mad: And her hideous shrieking, not to mention her hideous tennis game, has absolutely nothing to do with people disliking her. Right. Why does every argument here end up being about outward appearances? We all hate Maria because she's beautiful. We all hate Serena and Venus because they're black. None of them have any other qualities that might remotely make someone dislike them, apparently, which makes them the three people on Earth closest to perfection. Maybe that's it - we hate them because they're almost flawless. That makes as much sense as the aesthetic argument. Honestly, why do so many of you think so many of us are so pitiably shallow? Do you need to think that way so you can feel superior?

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-19-2011, 11:44 AM
That was absolutely never true. Both Williams sisters could always beat Maria even at her best on grass and hard courts.

This is a great point; Sharapova's fluke Wimbledon win occured as the result of her being a surprise opponent in that final (their lone meeting before was not on grass), but her style of play would never work again on that surface--certainly not enough to get her to another final. Sharapova's H2H vs, the Williams sisters at the majors is hoplessly one-sided for obvious reasons.

TMF
04-19-2011, 11:47 AM
What is the head of Serena and Maria. Would any version of Maria beat the Serena of the 2007 Australian Open final. Would any version of Maria beat the Venus of the 2005 Wimbledon semis where Maria admits she played the best she could have and still got thumped. Dont be an idiot.

You said the WS can always beat the very best of Maria, which is BS. She owned Venus on hc, that sure doesn’t support your argument.



You even said this..

Just because nobody beats you does not mean you were unbeatable.

Nice to see you are trolling on your own troll thread ! :twisted:

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 11:47 AM
you mean UNBEATEN, that's a difference

Sounds good

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-19-2011, 11:49 AM
What is the head of Serena and Maria. Would any version of Maria beat the Serena of the 2007 Australian Open final. Would any version of Maria beat the Venus of the 2005 Wimbledon semis where Maria admits she played the best she could have and still got thumped. Dont be an idiot.

More great points. Sharapova's one slam victory over one Williams sister was a complete fluke, and her record against either at the majors after that (where Sharapova's defenders will usually claim she improved as a player/grew in strength) is a joke.

NadalAgassi
04-19-2011, 11:58 AM
You said the WS can always beat the very best of Maria, which is BS.

I said the Williams at THEIR best could always beat Maria at her best. In Serena's case on all surfaces, in Venus's case for sure on grass atleast where she destroyed Maria both times.

She owned Venus on hc, that sure doesn’t support your argument.

Venus's peak on hard courts was from 99-2003. I would take that version of Venus anyday over Maria on a medium to fast hard court especialy. By the time Maria was in her prime, yes she probably was the better and more consistent hard court player compared to Venus who was already past her very best on the surface, but definitely not Serena, and on grass she is destroyed by Venus at her best as proved on more than one occasion.

You even said this..

LOL what is your point. Just because nobody beat you at an event doesnt mean you were playing at a level unbeatable to all, especialy in history. Otherwise that means Anna Smashnova was unbeatable by any player in history at all those mini tournament she won, that Majoli was unbeatable by any women in history at the French she won nearly losing to Davenport and Coetzer, etc...

MotherMarjorie
04-19-2011, 11:59 AM
More great points. Sharapova's one slam victory over one Williams sister was a complete fluke, and her record against either at the majors after that (where Sharapova's defenders will usually claim she improved as a player/grew in strength) is a joke.
Given that Maria Sharapova has won more than one grand slam singles title, and the women she defeated in all three finals she won are grand slam champions (Serena Willliams, Justine Henin and Ana Ivanovic), Maria has never been a fluke.

Maria Sharapova is 1-1 against Serena Williams in Grand Slam finals. Mother Marjorie concedes that Serena's persistent weight problem probably contributed to Sharapova's thrashing of her in the 2004 Wimbledon finals, but Maria has always been the real deal.

And Maria is still young, something the WS don't have in their favor, oh, no they do not.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 12:06 PM
Given that Maria Sharapova has won more than one grand slam singles title, and the women she defeated in all three finals she won are grand slam champions (Serena Willliams, Justine Henin and Ana Ivanovic), Maria has never been a fluke.

Maria Sharapova is 1-1 against Serena Williams in Grand Slam finals. Mother Marjorie concedes that Serena's persistent weight problem probably contributed to Sharapova's thrashing of her in the 2004 Wimbledon finals, but Maria has always been the real deal.

And Maria is still young, something the WS don't have in their favor, oh, no they do not.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

Suspect time is not on Maria's side either. Without their serves all of these players are beatable, usually by themselves.

vandre
04-19-2011, 12:15 PM
^^^^and her shoulder isn't on her side anymore either! :twisted:

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 12:21 PM
^^^^and her shoulder isn't on her side anymore either! :twisted:

That is what I am saying...........old before their time. Plenty of players in the WTA over-the-hill-gang now though. Could be wrong but I doubt it.

NadalAgassi
04-19-2011, 12:27 PM
Who knows what Maria's future holds. The most troubling sign for her though is the 2 best younger players Wozniacki and Azarenka have been thrashing her by increasingly easy scores in meetings over the last 8 months. That does not bode well for her chances of future slams. I could see her recovering enough to win another 1 or 2 slams, but could also easily see her never winning another.

TMF
04-19-2011, 12:28 PM
More great points. Sharapova's one slam victory over one Williams sister was a complete fluke, and her record against either at the majors after that (where Sharapova's defenders will usually claim she improved as a player/grew in strength) is a joke.

LOL...more desperate excuse with no argument. Young Maria also beat an overgrown Serena at the year end championship in the same year that she domolished her at W. :oops:

Federerx16
04-19-2011, 12:31 PM
Capriati never beat Venus but that doesnt mean Venus wasnt neccessarily bothered by her success. Basically any event Venus didnt win it seemed Capriati won which gave her a record very much on par with Venus's even at her peak.

Venus's head to head with alot of players are also aided by her inability to make finals or semis of big slow surface events and often fading out of contention altogether during her non peak years. Take her 7-2 head to head with Henin for instance, does anyone think that head to head would be like this if they played more then one match after January 2003 and more than 2 matches ever on clay. And Venus never played Capriati on clay where Jennifer would have had a 50% chance or better of winning, or even on rebound ace where Jennifer also would have had a real shot to win. They only played on medium to fast courts where Venus was favored over everyone until Serena came along. If Federer crashed out early nearly all the time on clay and then went into a long 3-4 year slump (Venus style, not Federer style) once Nadal began to surge in 2008, he might have a 5-2 or similar head to head with Nadal for instance.

Oh plz bb don't talk about Venus's inability to make finals when we're talking about J Cap with her 14 titles. Vee has 40+ I done forgot exactly how many she got coz she got too many but u can stay pressed.

And furthermore Venus "crashing out early" on clay is a damn myth. Sure she hasn't gone far at Rolang Garros in recent years but outside of RG she's won numberous red clay titles hell i'm pretty sure she's won more clay titles than j cap has won titles
that ok?

Boo? Mother Marjorie isn't current on all the street langue today. She avoids it similar to street meat vendors.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_li63kqyKyn1qankszo1_400.gif??

At Venus' best, not only was she very beatable (as seen by her modest record), but other players were equally dominant during Venus' peak (Capriati and Serena Williams).

Since the US Open 2001, Venus has only won three grand slam tournaments. That's ten years and a whole lot of self-doubt.




since US Open 2001 Venus has had J caps entire career and u know thats right

Povl Carstensen
04-19-2011, 02:01 PM
Going from unbeatable to beattable from point to point is in the nature of sports. Which is why I think this kind of thread is pretty hypothetical, useless and unnecessary.

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 02:23 PM
Going from unbeatable to beattable from point to point is in the nature of sports. Which is why I think this kind of thread is pretty hypothetical, useless and unnecessary.

But so much fun. Next question........Mary Ann or Ginger?

heftylefty
04-19-2011, 03:03 PM
But so much fun. Next question........Mary Ann or Ginger?

Dude, Ginger. Come on!:twisted:

dominikk1985
04-19-2011, 03:22 PM
venus unbeatable? she wasn't even the best in her own family.

DRII
04-19-2011, 03:58 PM
Boo? Mother Marjorie isn't current on all the street langue today. She avoids it similar to street meat vendors.

At Venus' best, not only was she very beatable (as seen by her modest record), but other players were equally dominant during Venus' peak (Capriati and Serena Williams).

Since the US Open 2001, Venus has only won three grand slam tournaments. That's ten years and a whole lot of self-doubt.

Mother Marjorie didn't create this history, history spoke for itself. Oh, yes it did. Venus is the Hana Mandlikova of her generation.

Mother Marjorie guesses King Richard Williams was right when he said in 2000 that Venus Williams would soon retire from tennis, because her results pretty much indicates she did.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse


You obviously failed to understand the meaning of peak or a player playing at their best. Its not a quantitative measure over time, we have records for that! Its a qualitative measure of a player's best attributes compared against another!

Venus, at her best, is simply the fastest, best defensive, most athletic and most explosive woman player in history!

Given these characteristics, Venus' best overwhelms anyone else's best. Even those who may have higher tennis acumen and mental toughness.

See, simple; try and comprehend!

You and LDV must never procreate together!

cc0509
04-19-2011, 04:08 PM
Venus, at her best, is simply the fastest, best defensive, most athletic and most explosive woman player in history!

Given these characteristics, Venus' best overwhelms anyone else's best. Even those who may have higher tennis acumen and mental toughness.

See, simple; try and comprehend!

I think Steffi Graf or Martina Navratilova would dispute this claim! Venus was a talented player but it is tough to argue that she was the better at her peak than Graf or Navratilova for example were at their peaks.

NadalAgassi
04-19-2011, 04:21 PM
Oh plz bb don't talk about Venus's inability to make finals when we're talking about J Cap with her 14 titles. Vee has 40+ I done forgot exactly how many she got coz she got too many but u can stay pressed.

First off I dont even give a damn about Capriati who personally I believe is the worst 3 slam winner, possibly even multi slam winner in history, and who I believe had a HUGE amount of luck to win 3 slams. In terms of ability I dont think Capriati is even close to Davenport or Clijsters, never mind Venus. However that said the fact is it probably did bother Venus quite a bit that even at her ultimate peak both Serena and Capriati had as much success in terms of winning big titles as she did. That was the point others were making, and you would have to be delusional to think this wasnt a factor on her mentality. 2001 was Venus's best year ever probably and yet she sees Capriati sweep Athlete of the Year and Player of the Year Awards, CAPRIATI of all people who we both agree isnt anything that great. And you dont think that bothered and began to affect the pysche of a player of Venus's stature, get real, and then it gets even worse when her sister begans to take one slam title after away from her the next year, then the year after that Henin comes along and surpasses her too.

And furthermore Venus "crashing out early" on clay is a damn myth. Sure she hasn't gone far at Rolang Garros in recent years but outside of RG she's won numberous red clay titles hell i'm pretty sure she's won more clay titles than j cap has won titles

Venus of the last 7 years or so is the Wozniacki of clay. She piles up titles by entering some of the most obscure teeny tiny clay events out there, alot of the times which she is the only one in the top 20 or top 30 even entered. At Roland Garros and most of the tier 1s she has been an embarassment for a player of her status for awhile, she has made 1 quarterfinal at the French since 2002 now, LOL! And when her last remotedly significant title on clay (even something like Charleston, Hamburg, Stuttgart, etc...).

If my theory wasnt true though why has Venus not played the queen of clay of her era Justine Henin on the surface since 2002. That alone is telling enough to her ineffectiveness on clay in events that most of the real players actually enter (not that Venus would want any piece of a prime Henin on a clay court anyway, she would rather eat bagels and breadsticks at a local bakery than on a centre court). I will say that in the late 90s and early 2000s she was a pretty good clay courter though but then just went away on the surface.

since US Open 2001 Venus has had J caps entire career and u know thats right

Of course this is true. Capriati on the whole is an overrated flake whose ability is at best on par with a Sabatini or Novotna who won only 1 slam. It still doesnt change the fact that during Venus's absolute peak in 2001-2002, she saw Capriati and Serena both win more slams then her, and Serena completely own her once she came into her own. And since then she hasnt ever been the same. Coincidence, most likely not.

DRII
04-19-2011, 04:35 PM
Looks like you must have a degree in BULL SH*TOLOGY!

LDVTennis
04-19-2011, 04:43 PM
Its not a quantitative measure over time, we have records for that! Its a qualitative measure of a player's best attributes compared against another!

And, who did that comparison? You? If it was "you," I am sure it was fair and logical. LOL.


Venus, at her best, is simply the fastest, best defensive, most athletic and most explosive woman player in history!

Given these characteristics, Venus' best overwhelms anyone else's best. Even those who may have higher tennis acumen and mental toughness.


Based on your fictitious comparison, is this your conclusion?

Well, according to the poll, 43 posters did their own comparison and they disagree with you. Is there even one tennis expert who has ever done such a comparison and concluded what you have? If there is, I would like to see it.

So, what gives? Are you the only person who sees the truth? Or, are you just deluded?

Dilettante
04-19-2011, 04:47 PM
And Maria is still young, something the WS don't have in their favor, oh, no they do not.

Neither has Sharapova I'm afraid.

Federerx16
04-19-2011, 04:48 PM
First off I dont even give a damn about Capriati who personally I believe is the worst 3 slam winner, possibly even multi slam winner in history, and who I believe had a HUGE amount of luck to win 3 slams. In terms of ability I dont think Capriati is even close to Davenport or Clijsters, never mind Venus. However that said the fact is it probably did bother Venus quite a bit that even at her ultimate peak both Serena and Capriati had as much success in terms of winning big titles as she did. That was the point others were making, and you would have to be delusional to think this wasnt a factor on her mentality. 2001 was Venus's best year ever probably and yet she sees Capriati sweep Athlete of the Year and Player of the Year Awards, CAPRIATI of all people who we both agree isnt anything that great. And you dont think that bothered and began to affect the pysche of a player of Venus's stature, get real, and then it gets even worse when her sister begans to take one slam title after away from her the next year, then the year after that Henin comes along and surpasses her too.



Venus of the last 7 years or so is the Wozniacki of clay. She piles up titles by entering some of the most obscure teeny tiny clay events out there, alot of the times which she is the only one in the top 20 or top 30 even entered. At Roland Garros and most of the tier 1s she has been an embarassment for a player of her status for awhile, she has made 1 quarterfinal at the French since 2002 now, LOL! And when her last remotedly significant title on clay (even something like Charleston, Hamburg, Stuttgart, etc...).

If my theory wasnt true though why has Venus not played the queen of clay of her era Justine Henin on the surface since 2002. That alone is telling enough to her ineffectiveness on clay in events that most of the real players actually enter (not that Venus would want any piece of a prime Henin on a clay court anyway, she would rather eat bagels and breadsticks at a local bakery than on a centre court). I will say that in the late 90s and early 2000s she was a pretty good clay courter though but then just went away on the surface.



Of course this is true. Capriati on the whole is an overrated flake whose ability is at best on par with a Sabatini or Novotna who won only 1 slam. It still doesnt change the fact that during Venus's absolute peak in 2001-2002, she saw Capriati and Serena both win more slams then her, and Serena completely own her once she came into her own. And since then she hasnt ever been the same. Coincidence, most likely not.

Oh girl imma cut right through this mess in a couple hours. Unfortunatey I've got stuff to do but I'm quoting so I can remember.

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-19-2011, 04:50 PM
Given that Maria Sharapova has won more than one grand slam singles title, and the women she defeated in all three finals she won are grand slam champions (Serena Willliams, Justine Henin and Ana Ivanovic), Maria has never been a fluke.

Fluke was a reference to her lone win over a Williams sister in a majors final.

And Maria is still young, something the WS don't have in their favor, oh, no they do not.

She's not so young (in average tennis terms) anymore. Her movement--if you can call that flat-footed clown act movement--is more of a problem now than in the past. Further, her shoulder routinely fails her, and she does not now--nor has she ever had a "B" game, when the "A" game fell apart, not to mention any sense of the net.

At this point, Sharapova would need Serena or Venius to be ill on an ER-worthy level (in a majors final) in order to win.

LDVTennis
04-19-2011, 05:03 PM
"A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture." --- Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

A false belief: "Venus, at her best, is simply the fastest, best defensive, most athletic and most explosive woman player in history! Given these characteristics, Venus' best overwhelms anyone else's best."

Incorrect inference about external reality: Apparently, Venus' best only manifests itself on surfaces other than rebound ace or clay and, above all, only when she wins the match.

Sustained despite what almost everybody else believes: 43 respondents to the poll do not agree that Venus is unbeatable. Only 8 did.

Despite what constitutes obvious proof or evidence to the contrary: That Venus could not overwhelm anyone on clay at her best or otherwise. No conditions can be placed on being unbeatable.

The belief is not ordinarily accepted by the members of the person's subculture: Again, 43 respondents to the poll did not think Venus is unbeatable at her best.

NadalAgassi
04-19-2011, 05:47 PM
Fluke was a reference to her lone win over a Williams sister in a majors final.

Exactly. To give Maria her due she could beat some non Williams greats on a non clay surface in big matches since some of them her game matched up decently with some of the tohers. Henin was one of those she could beat on her best day on a hard court (definitely not on clay), while Davenport was another. The Williams sisters were a nightmare for her game however even at her best. Her Wimbledon triumph over Serena was an excellent performance of course, even with Serena's shockingly subpar performance that day, and she was briefly a tough opponent for Serena, but Serena figured her out in Australia 05 and has had an easy time with her since on all surfaces. And Venus on grass has always had an easy time with her.

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 05:56 PM
Dude, Ginger. Come on!:twisted:

You cannot be serious!

DjokerIsTheBest
04-19-2011, 05:58 PM
No one is unbeatable

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 06:13 PM
No one is unbeatable

Not even Nole this year?

tenis1
04-19-2011, 06:31 PM
Not even Nole this year?

Unfortunately probably no. But there is still hope :)

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-19-2011, 06:37 PM
but Serena figured her out in Australia 05 and has had an easy time with her since on all surfaces. And Venus on grass has always had an easy time with her.

True, so for anyone to even whisper Sharapova's name in this thread illustrates the level some will go with fantasy in order to argue...something, even if that something has no concrete facts supporting it.

Ronaldo
04-19-2011, 06:39 PM
Unfortunately probably no. But there is still hope :)

Hope springs eternal

DRII
04-19-2011, 11:45 PM
"A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture." --- Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

A false belief: "Venus, at her best, is simply the fastest, best defensive, most athletic and most explosive woman player in history! Given these characteristics, Venus' best overwhelms anyone else's best."

Incorrect inference about external reality: Apparently, Venus' best only manifests itself on surfaces other than rebound ace or clay and, above all, only when she wins the match.

Sustained despite what almost everybody else believes: 43 respondents to the poll do not agree that Venus is unbeatable. Only 8 did.

Despite what constitutes obvious proof or evidence to the contrary: That Venus could not overwhelm anyone on clay at her best or otherwise. No conditions can be placed on being unbeatable.

The belief is not ordinarily accepted by the members of the person's subculture: Again, 43 respondents to the poll did not think Venus is unbeatable at her best.

Whoa!

Exactly how much of your, what must be insignificant, time did u waste on that incoherent dribble?

Well at least you've learned how to use, that product of what you called America's substandard educational system, the internet! But of course, as expected your conclusions are sorely lacking!

LDVTennis
04-20-2011, 11:47 AM
Exactly how much of your, what must be insignificant, time did u waste on that incoherent dribble?


Talking about time, you edited your message at 5:00 am on a weekday. Was that your time or my time (PST)? If it was your time, that is really pathetic?

Whatever the case, really, it has been fun. Now, I'm going to put you on my ignore list. What will you do now at 5:00 am? LOL.

aphex
04-20-2011, 11:51 AM
I remember when I was unbeatable once...It lasted .00034 seconds...

Gorecki
04-20-2011, 11:55 AM
I remember when I was unbeatable once...It lasted .00034 seconds...

ha... but wasnt that time when Dr. Fedace beat you 6-0 3-0 (ret) in socratical fashion?

aphex
04-20-2011, 12:02 PM
ha... but wasnt that time when Dr. Fedace beat you 6-0 3-0 (ret) in socratical fashion?

Everybody knows the good doctor's superior brainwaves are unbeatable...

So, stop your mockery! I'd like to see you do any better, poor, deluded Gorecki...

Gorecki
04-20-2011, 12:18 PM
Everybody knows the good doctor's superior brainwaves are unbeatable...

So, stop your mockery! I'd like to see you do any better, poor, deluded Gorecki...

you did not graduate here:

http://www.crashzone.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/ford-stand.jpg

aphex
04-21-2011, 01:45 AM
you did not graduate here:

http://www.crashzone.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/ford-stand.jpg

LMAO...It took me like 20 seconds...but it was worth it:):)

NadalAgassi
04-21-2011, 02:03 AM
Oh girl imma cut right through this mess in a couple hours. Unfortunatey I've got stuff to do but I'm quoting so I can remember.

Ummm what are you waiting for. :)

Gorecki
04-21-2011, 05:56 AM
LMAO...It took me like 20 seconds...but it was worth it:):)

hence you not being a standford graduate!!! i'm not being "hippo crates" here!!!

this is me :

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2007/12/romney-hippo-crate.jpg

notice the hippo & the crates!!!

adidasman
04-21-2011, 06:53 AM
Whoa!

Exactly how much of your, what must be insignificant, time did u waste on that incoherent dribble?

Well at least you've learned how to use, that product of what you called America's substandard educational system, the internet! But of course, as expected your conclusions are sorely lacking! It's "drivel." Not "dribble." If you're wanting to insult someone's intelligence, you might want to use the English language properly in the process. I won't even address your pitiful misuse of punctation.

DRII
04-21-2011, 08:30 AM
It's "drivel." Not "dribble." If you're wanting to insult someone's intelligence, you might want to use the English language properly in the process. I won't even address your pitiful misuse of punctation.

I didn't ask for your grammar lessons beeoch!

You grammar queens on message boards provide what must be the most useless paradoxical exercises in existence!

MotherMarjorie
04-21-2011, 10:40 AM
You obviously failed to understand the meaning of peak or a player playing at their best. Its not a quantitative measure over time, we have records for that! Its a qualitative measure of a player's best attributes compared against another!

Venus, at her best, is simply the fastest, best defensive, most athletic and most explosive woman player in history!

Given these characteristics, Venus' best overwhelms anyone else's best. Even those who may have higher tennis acumen and mental toughness.

See, simple; try and comprehend!

You and LDV must never procreate together!
Mother Marjorie wonders where these vituperators of tennis history come from?

Its almost like a mental disorder of some sort. They know their favorites will never live up to their expectations so they create some fictitious, non-sensical scenario which places their favorites in the best positive light historically, regardless of their actual results and reality. Its especially common with the Williams fans in women's tennis. They know the WS will never be a Tier I GOAT so they lie to themselves. How sad for them. How sad. (Tears)

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

MotherMarjorie
04-21-2011, 10:43 AM
--nor has she ever had a "B" game, when the "A" game fell apart, not to mention any sense of the net.
Yeah, let's talk about Venus' "B" game. Especially that great serve and mental toughness. The aloof sister has issues. Oh, yes, she does.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

MotherMarjorie
04-21-2011, 10:50 AM
Her Wimbledon triumph over Serena was an excellent performance of course, even with Serena's shockingly subpar performance that day, and she was briefly a tough opponent for Serena, but Serena figured her out in Australia 05 and has had an easy time with her since on all surfaces. And Venus on grass has always had an easy time with her.
The 2004 Wimbledon Championships was the first time that Fat Serena appeared. She had gained weight during her prior 8 month absence and never could shed it. Maria trounced Serena in the finals. Serena was wrong-footed so many times in that match.

Serena learned, in time, how to play well with the added weight. But the weight probably attributed to her not being able to attain GOAT status.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

LDVTennis
04-21-2011, 10:58 AM
Mother Marjorie wonders where these vituperators of tennis history come from?

Mother, may I...

I think we figured it out in the other thread.

They come from the janitor closet.

NadalAgassi
04-21-2011, 10:59 AM
The 2004 Wimbledon Championships was the first time that Fat Serena appeared. She had gained weight during her prior 8 month absence and never could shed it. Maria trounced Serena in the finals. Serena was wrong-footed so many times in that match.

Serena learned, in time, how to play well with the added weight. But the weight probably attributed to her not being able to attain GOAT status.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

I do agree Serena has underachieved in large part to less than stellar fitness. She did have potential GOAT talent (well some think so, others are free to disagree of course) but not the dedication to reach that status. In fairness to her though she had 2 major problems when her momentum was going strong though. In 2003 the knee surgery which was a recurring problem for years (and for awhile it was harder to train properly on the sore knee). And of course her recent one with the cut foot which has led to further complications.

jones101
04-21-2011, 11:00 AM
I must add I think her and Steffi in thir primes on a grass court is one of my alltime fantasy matchups.

Baby Venus played a past prime Graf and they had an amazing match.

Steffi, at her best, however, was unbeatable!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuzYbVgqdwY

After watching this, im more sure than ever.

This was taken a couple of weeks ago, and her footwork and ballstriking is still amazing, she doing better than Petkovic.

If Kimiko can do it, im sure Steffi could easily beat some top players

MotherMarjorie
04-21-2011, 11:13 AM
Mother, may I...

I think we figured it out in the other thread.

They come from the janitor closet.
LDV, it just breaks a mothers heart to see all the delusions of grandeur and nonsense being spewed in context with the actual history of tennis. Tennis history used to be respected and revered. Some fans are so desperate to usurp their favorites actual historical results that they will lie, steal and cheat to make their favs careers look better. That is so crazy to Mother Marjorie, oh, yes it is.

Mother Marjorie's Baby Daddy once told her, "Marj, don't make eye contact with one's that twitch. Just keep walking, get into the car as quickly as possible and tell the driver to speed away."

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

LDVTennis
04-21-2011, 11:13 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuzYbVgqdwY

After watching this, im more sure than ever.

This was taken a couple of weeks ago, and her footwork and ballstriking is still amazing, she doing better than Petkovic.

If Kimiko can do it, im sure Steffi could easily beat some top players

Here is another video taken around the same time:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=107330986014019

MichaelNadal
04-21-2011, 11:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuzYbVgqdwY

After watching this, im more sure than ever.

This was taken a couple of weeks ago, and her footwork and ballstriking is still amazing, she doing better than Petkovic.

If Kimiko can do it, im sure Steffi could easily beat some top players

I wish Steffi would come back :( She would STILL school the majority of the WTA.

BrooklynNY
04-21-2011, 11:18 AM
Did you guys see the match of Graf vs Clijsters under the Wimbledon Roof 2 yrs ago.

I actually thought Steffi would win, it was so close, she may have let clijsters take it.

:twisted:

LDVTennis
04-21-2011, 11:25 AM
LDV, it just breaks a mothers heart to see all the delusions of grandeur and nonsense being spewed in context with the actual history of tennis. Tennis history used to be respected and revered. Some fans are so desperate to usurp their favorites actual historical results that they will lie, steal and cheat to make their favs careers look better. That is so crazy to Mother Marjorie, oh, yes it is.

Mother Marjorie's Baby Daddy once told her, "Marj, don't make eye contact with one's that twitch. Just keep walking and get into your car as quickly as possible."

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

Dear Mother Marjorie,

It is depressing.

Let me see if I can cheer you up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnLf7ghM-6E.

It is funny because it is so true.

Some people can no longer tell the difference between the real thing and their delusions about what is real. In the words of the real Cher, some people need to "get a life."

Sincerely,

LDVTennis

adidasman
04-21-2011, 11:31 AM
I didn't ask for your grammar lessons beeoch!

You grammar queens on message boards provide what must be the most useless paradoxical exercises in existence! I wouldn't have wasted my time had you not been attacking someone else's intelligence. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Thanks also for the lovely misuse of the word "paradoxical." There are few things more embarrassing than seeing someone mangle the language in an attempt to sound eloquent.

LDVTennis
04-21-2011, 11:52 AM
I wouldn't have wasted my time had you not been attacking someone else's intelligence. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Thanks also for the lovely misuse of the word "paradoxical." There are few things more embarrassing than seeing someone mangle the language in an attempt to sound eloquent.

Adidasman, thanks for the support.

MotherMarjorie
04-21-2011, 11:57 AM
Dear Mother Marjorie,

It is depressing.

Let me see if I can cheer you up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnLf7ghM-6E.

It is funny because it is so true.

Some people can no longer tell the difference between the real thing and their delusions about what is real. In the words of the real Cher, some people need to "get a life."

Sincerely,

LDVTennis
LMAO!

I almost forgot about that episode. It reminds me of the episode when Jennifer Lopez guest starred.

LDV, you are a very wise person, oh, yes you are!

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-21-2011, 01:03 PM
Yeah, let's talk about Venus' "B" game.

One does not win several Wimbledon titles with a one-dimensional game, and while we are on the subject of one-dimensional games, that is the exact reason the clumsy Sharapova only managed to get lucky with her one and only victory there.

NadalAgassi
04-21-2011, 01:10 PM
One does not win several Wimbledon titles with a one-dimensional game, and while we are on the subject of one-dimensional games, that is the exact reason the clumsy Sharapova only managed to get lucky with her one and only victory there.

Maria's game was most effective when she was first starting since she did have some impressive strengths that made her very formidable IF you did not go in with a proper game plan how to negate her one dimensional game. However it didnt take long for players to figure out how to play her, Serena figured it out during that 05 Australian Open semi and has not had a tough match with Maria since then, and by 2007 nearly everyone had figured it out. Of course the way to solve that problem is to improve or adapt your game yourself, but Maria has never done that, at her best she is still the same player she is at 04-06 (and most times not even that). So unless Maria is playing lights out and getting mostly a good draw (eg- 2008 Australian Open) she cant win anymore. Even a mostly defensive minded player like Wozniacki has cracked the code to her game as their recent matches clearly demonstrate.

jerriy
04-21-2011, 01:20 PM
The saddest part of Venus's legacy is how many matches she allowed her little sis to take early on to build Serena's confidence instead of crushing her. I think she really believed when she gave Serena the room to win that she could take it back after Serena had a few GS's under her belt but age/injury caught up with her faster than she was able to shore up her own legacy.Agreed.

Vee gave momentum to Serena rather too eagerly.

She didn't put up a fight.

It all started ominously with Venus waving the white flag and promptly getting out of Serena's way at Indian Wells in 2001

She might as well have handed her the trophy herself :rolleyes:
.

adidasman
04-21-2011, 01:32 PM
One does not win several Wimbledon titles with a one-dimensional game, and while we are on the subject of one-dimensional games, that is the exact reason the clumsy Sharapova only managed to get lucky with her one and only victory there. If you're very good and very consistent at your one-dimensional game, Wimby is the one place at which you can excel. Venus is proof of that. Sharapova isn't good or consistent; when she's on, which occurs less and less often, she can be tough. The rest of the tme, she beats herself.

jones101
04-21-2011, 01:56 PM
Maria's game was most effective when she was first starting since she did have some impressive strengths that made her very formidable IF you did not go in with a proper game plan how to negate her one dimensional game. However it didnt take long for players to figure out how to play her, Serena figured it out during that 05 Australian Open semi and has not had a tough match with Maria since then, and by 2007 nearly everyone had figured it out. Of course the way to solve that problem is to improve or adapt your game yourself, but Maria has never done that, at her best she is still the same player she is at 04-06 (and most times not even that). So unless Maria is playing lights out and getting mostly a good draw (eg- 2008 Australian Open) she cant win anymore. Even a mostly defensive minded player like Wozniacki has cracked the code to her game as their recent matches clearly demonstrate.

She did beat Henin, Davenport, Ivanovic, Jankovic and Dementiva to win the Aussie Open, they are all quality players

Joe Pike
04-21-2011, 02:09 PM
She did beat Henin, Davenport, Ivanovic, Jankovic and Dementiva to win the Aussie Open, they are all quality players


Ivanovic, Jankovic and Demented are "quality players" ... ?
:):):)

NadalAgassi
04-21-2011, 02:09 PM
She did beat Henin, Davenport, Ivanovic, Jankovic and Dementiva to win the Aussie Open, they are all quality players

Davenport was an old retired has been just playing a bit more part time tennis for fun. Definitely not a threat, a top 30 caliber at most by then. Dementieva is Sharapova's pigeon, her easiest opponent of all the top Russians.

OK I will give you that Henin, Ivanovic, and Jankovic were decent opponents. However Henin was nowhere near her 2003-2007 form ever again, but she was still Maria's biggest win. Maria's win over Henin at the 06 U.S Open was way more impressive though as that is the Henin who was dominating tennis in the mid 2000s, not the one of the 08 Australian. Jankovic and Ivanovic are good players but ones that were never going to win a hard court slam gauranteed, Roland Garros is the only place either could even hope to win a slam . Basically it was a mostly good draw since she avoided Serena and Venus, and did not have to face either Henin or Clijsters in their top form. Most of all since she avoided Serena who owns her thoroughly since 2005 and who obviously owns the Australian Open.

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-21-2011, 02:10 PM
If you're very good and very consistent at your one-dimensional game, Wimby is the one place at which you can excel.

I disagree. If one falls into predictable patterns on grass, an opponent can work his or her way back into a match enough to exploit a truly one-dimensional game. At their best on the surface, Sampras, McEnroe, Graf, Becker and others (including Venus) could not go into "plug-in" mode for every opponent, and still expect to win the title.

Granted, while a grass great's "A" game will be employed often, their opponents are not stupid--they know patterns enough to do whatever it takes to break that "A" game down (if they're good enough), so the great Wimbledon champs had to mix things up from time to time.

Venus is proof of that. Sharapova isn't good or consistent; when she's on, which occurs less and less often, she can be tough. The rest of the tme, she beats herself.

Sharapova was an overachiever with many lucky breaks, since her skill set and mind were too easy for others to overcome.

DRII
04-22-2011, 07:55 AM
LDV, it just breaks a mothers heart to see all the delusions of grandeur and nonsense being spewed in context with the actual history of tennis. Tennis history used to be respected and revered. Some fans are so desperate to usurp their favorites actual historical results that they will lie, steal and cheat to make their favs careers look better. That is so crazy to Mother Marjorie, oh, yes it is.

Mother Marjorie's Baby Daddy once told her, "Marj, don't make eye contact with one's that twitch. Just keep walking, get into the car as quickly as possible and tell the driver to speed away."

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

And what did your baby's daddy (is it LDV?) say about people who refer to themselves in the third person :confused: ???

I suggest you avoid mirrors!

And FYI, I am definitely not trying to change history. Records are records, all rational people know this.

However, there is certainly room for hypothetical discussions! Assuming you have the mental capacity to rationalize such a concept and therefore participate. If you only limit yourself to actual history then you are avoding quite a lot!

DRII
04-22-2011, 08:04 AM
I wouldn't have wasted my time had you not been attacking someone else's intelligence. Judge not, lest ye be judged. Thanks also for the lovely misuse of the word "paradoxical." There are few things more embarrassing than seeing someone mangle the language in an attempt to sound eloquent.

Your posts are most certainly contradictions in terms to the upmost extent!

Lovely-misuse, mangle yet eloquent...

At least try to be coherrent!

You seemed to have got the point, although you obviously lack some comprehension and avoid pertinent context....

jones101
04-22-2011, 08:39 AM
Is Caroline Hingis-Vicario-Martinez at her best unbeatable???

DRII
04-22-2011, 08:59 AM
Is Caroline Hingis-Vicario-Martinez at her best unbeatable???

No, absolutely not!

Those are the quintessential defensive, percentage type players. Although, often times these players do best day in and day out in the real world, they are very vulnerable (even in peak form) when facing more offensive players playing their best.


Peak Venus would have an easy time against any of the for-mentioned players playing at their best!

MotherMarjorie
04-22-2011, 09:20 AM
If you're very good and very consistent at your one-dimensional game, Wimby is the one place at which you can excel. Venus is proof of that. Sharapova isn't good or consistent; when she's on, which occurs less and less often, she can be tough. The rest of the tme, she beats herself.
Venus never had a "B" game. Venus refused to employ different strokes and tactics which would have improved her game, especially her serve. In that regard, Venus was the dumber of the sisters. Serena seemed to understand the concept early on, but stubborn and aloof Venus didn't get the mental memo and refused to change. And her historical results suffered as a result.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

MotherMarjorie
04-22-2011, 09:23 AM
However, there is certainly room for hypothetical discussions!
Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

Mother Marjorie deals only with reality and none of that uber-fan worship non-sense. If the numbers aren't there, what's to discuss?

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

MotherMarjorie
04-22-2011, 09:24 AM
Is Caroline Hingis-Vicario-Martinez at her best unbeatable???
CH-V-M reminds Mother Marjorie of artificial sweetner. Its just not the real thing.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

LDVTennis
04-22-2011, 09:27 AM
LMAO!

I almost forgot about that episode. It reminds me of the episode when Jennifer Lopez guest starred.

LDV, you are a very wise person, oh, yes you are!

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

Since, Will & Grace is more interesting than anything Venus could do, here is a snippet of that episode with JLo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kMnJUUIFdQ. That bit at the end with the do-rag is genius.

Here's what I consider to be the funniest episode ever. It is funny from beginning to end. See link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byK_7JrwRX8, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujduMx20_ds, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F7yAzDoCrk.

Back on topic. Venus and Serena were never mentioned on Will & Grace. Guess they were just not that interesting.

Well, at least not as interesting as Steffi who was mentioned twice on Friends, the biggest sitcom of her era. Here are the clips from Friends: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGHbfwBqSss and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHwci2b9Cb0.

Enjoy.

MotherMarjorie
04-22-2011, 09:29 AM
Sharapova was an overachiever with many lucky breaks,
The "lucky" concept. Wasn't that concept used by Serena Williams to describe opponents who defeated her???

Maria trounced Serena on center court Wimbledon in the 2004 Wimbledon final. Get over it. If Serena had controlled her food portions a little better, she could have been competitive in that match. However, the first glimpse we saw of Fat Serena was pretty embarrassing to her fans and hindered her play.

Yes, Easter is bringing out all the delusional ones. Oh, yes it is!

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

NadalAgassi
04-22-2011, 09:30 AM
I am sure Venus would prefer someone else other than the one who thinks Blake at his best would beat Federer at his best (ROTFL) to be arguing her best is unbeatable. So would one of her logical fans like MichaelNadal or Jones101 who also believes this please start arguing more points for her on this topic, she deserves a better campaigner than DRII atleast. :)

MotherMarjorie
04-22-2011, 09:49 AM
And what did your baby's daddy (is it LDV?) say about people who refer to themselves in the third person :confused: ???
Mother Marjorie's Baby Daddy goes along with whatever Mother Marjorie does and Mother Marjorie goes along with whatever Mother Marjorie's Baby Daddy does. Its called marriage.

For instance, Mother Marjorie has a gay husband on the side (every straight married woman should have one) who helps her with party planning, baby sitting, fashion, shopping, gossip, etc. When Mother Marjorie's Baby Daddy goes out of town on business and she wants company, who does she call? Her gay husband. When Mother Marjorie can't decide which cocktail dress to wear and her Baby Daddy won't help, who does Mother Marjorie call? Her gay husband. The way God intended.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

TMF
04-22-2011, 09:50 AM
The "lucky" concept. Wasn't that concept used by Serena Williams to describe opponents who defeated her???

Maria trounced Serena on center court Wimbledon in the 2004 Wimbledon final. Get over it. If Serena had controlled her food portions a little better, she could have been competitive in that match. However, the first glimpse we saw of Fat Serena was pretty embarrassing to her fans and hindered her play.

Yes, Easter is bringing out all the delusional ones. Oh, yes it is!

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse


"She had a lot of lucky shots; she’s a good framer,"[after getting tortured by Stosur’s forehand]

"I always believe the match is on my racket. I think every time I lose is because of me, not because of the other person."

"Honestly, I lost because of me, and not because of anything she did."

"I just think she made a lot of lucky shots and I made a lot of errors,"[after getting humbled by Henin at the US Open]

MotherMarjorie
04-22-2011, 09:56 AM
"She had a lot of lucky shots; she’s a good framer,"[after getting tortured by Stosur’s forehand]

"I always believe the match is on my racket. I think every time I lose is because of me, not because of the other person."

"Honestly, I lost because of me, and not because of anything she did."

"I just think she made a lot of lucky shots and I made a lot of errors,"[after getting humbled by Henin at the US Open]
Thank you, TMF, for providing the historical reference! You rock, oh, yes, you do.

Don't you find it ironically appealing that Thundervolley would say that Maria Sharapova was "lucky" to defeat Serena Williams at Wimbledon? Its almost as if Thundervolley is emulating the same behaviors as one of his favorite tennis players.

That symbiotic relationship Serena has with her fans is mighty powerful, oh, yes it is!

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

LDVTennis
04-22-2011, 10:00 AM
When Mother Marjorie can't decide which cocktail dress to wear and her Baby Daddy won't help, who does Mother Marjorie call? Her gay husband.


In honor of TennisTalk's own Karen Walker:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou7mp36GMYs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHPcV9CSPho. (See 5:40)

DRII
04-22-2011, 10:04 AM
I am sure Venus would prefer someone else other than the one who thinks Blake at his best would beat Federer at his best (ROTFL) to be arguing her best is unbeatable. So would one of her logical fans like MichaelNadal or Jones101 who also believes this please start arguing more points for her on this topic, she deserves a better campaigner than DRII atleast. :)

If you're going to challenge (and I use challenge loosely) someone, at least do it directly!

First off i said Blake at best 'could' beat Federer at best, not would! You could try to be accurate with your tepid rebuttals!

Second, i didn't even expect up to 15 people, who regurlarly visit this message board, to agree (or come close to agreeing) with me. You said no one would, you were proven wrong!

Also I'm sure if you had worded the question more succinctly and logically, more may have agreed!

jones101
04-22-2011, 10:05 AM
"I always believe the match is on my racket. I think every time I lose is because of me, not because of the other person."[/I]

"Honestly, I lost because of me, and not because of anything she did."


I honestly believe this attitude makes her as good as she is, she would not have been as successful without it.

TMF
04-22-2011, 10:13 AM
Thank you, TMF, for providing the historical reference! You rock, oh, yes, you do.

Don't you find it ironically appealing that Thundervolley would say that Maria Sharapova was "lucky" to defeat Serena Williams at Wimbledon? Its almost as if Thundervolley is emulating the same behaviors as one of his favorite tennis players.

That symbiotic relationship Serena has with her fans is mighty powerful, oh, yes it is!

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse


My pleasure.

As for Thundervolley false belief, it’s call a delusional grandeur.



From New Your Times, under the headline:

"Williams needs a lesson in etiquette", Selena Roberts wrote: "Who's classless now?

"The grumpy, borderline nasty disposition that Williams displayed after her loss was a little jarring considering she had her own lack of preparation to blame for giving in so easily to Henin.

"Serena was bitter, angry and upset. She directed some of that at Henin. Who could use charm school now?"

In an interview with USA Network, which hosts television coverage of the U.S. Open, John Wertheim, the senior writer for Sports Illustrated magazine, described Serena's reaction as "stunning".

"There's a lot to admire about Serena but this happens again and again where we just have these completely graceless post-match (news conferences). Lucky shots? I think she means winners."

Onthebaseline.com, which specialises in women's tennis news, said Williams should probably have skipped the news conference.

"Serena's public relations department would have done better to pay the fine themselves than to allow their charge to disgrace herself as she did last night," it said.


I would add that her sister Venus is not much better as she only smiles when she wins as anybody can do. Notice in last night's match how gracious and smiling even through some tough point losses the Serbian woman, Jelena was and was as extremely gracious in defeat unlike most Americans.

TMF
04-22-2011, 10:21 AM
I honestly believe this attitude makes her as good as she is, she would not have been as successful without it.

I'm sorry but that doesn't take away her classless, sore loser attitude.

Great players of the past doesn't have to be this bitter. Arrogant, yeah, but they would never stoop this low. Even her own die-hard fans are CRUSHED, HURT, DISBELIEF !

DRII
04-22-2011, 10:27 AM
My pleasure.

As for Thundervolley false belief, it’s call a delusional grandeur.



From New Your Times, under the headline:

"Williams needs a lesson in etiquette", Selena Roberts wrote: "Who's classless now?

"The grumpy, borderline nasty disposition that Williams displayed after her loss was a little jarring considering she had her own lack of preparation to blame for giving in so easily to Henin.

"Serena was bitter, angry and upset. She directed some of that at Henin. Who could use charm school now?"

In an interview with USA Network, which hosts television coverage of the U.S. Open, John Wertheim, the senior writer for Sports Illustrated magazine, described Serena's reaction as "stunning".

"There's a lot to admire about Serena but this happens again and again where we just have these completely graceless post-match (news conferences). Lucky shots? I think she means winners."

Onthebaseline.com, which specialises in women's tennis news, said Williams should probably have skipped the news conference.

"Serena's public relations department would have done better to pay the fine themselves than to allow their charge to disgrace herself as she did last night," it said.


I would add that her sister Venus is not much better as she only smiles when she wins as anybody can do. Notice in last night's match how gracious and smiling even through some tough point losses the Serbian woman, Jelena was and was as extremely gracious in defeat unlike most Americans.

So from this post, one can surmise that you have some kind of hatred or mighty large chip on your shoulder (and therefore feel free to make sweeping generalizations) regarding afro-americans (the common outward denominator amongst the Williams sisters, besides gender - because otherwise they are incredibly different individuals) and/or Americans in general.

Naivety is usually indicative of innocence, however innocent you clearly are not!

DRII
04-22-2011, 10:32 AM
I'm sorry but that doesn't take away her classless, sore loser attitude.

Great players of the past doesn't have to be this bitter. Arrogant, yeah, but they would never stoop this low. Even her own die-hard fans are CRUSHED, HURT, DISBELIEF !


Federer has often times made arrogant and classless statements, they were just cloaked in a smattering of under-handed elitism - which is obviously enough to fool you and others like you!

TMF
04-22-2011, 10:35 AM
So from this post, one can surmise that you have some kind of hatred or mighty large chip on your shoulder (and therefore feel free to make sweeping generalizations) regarding afro-americans (the common outward denominator amongst the Williams sisters, besides gender - because otherwise they are incredibly different individuals) and/or Americans in general.

Naivety is usually indicative of innocence, however innocent you clearly are not!

I didn’t write that article, but I’m just a messenger. You attack the wrong person.

For the record, that article was published in the US, not from other country. You would expect the Americans protect their athletes, like they use to do.
However, not Serena, which speaks volume about how fans don't like Serena's character.

TMF
04-22-2011, 10:37 AM
Federer has often times made arrogant and classless statements, they were just cloaked in a smattering of under-handed elitism - which is obviously enough to fool you and others like you!

If Fed or any players were remotely close to classless as Serena, they also would get ripped apart.

BrooklynNY
04-22-2011, 10:42 AM
Federer has often times made arrogant and classless statements, they were just cloaked in a smattering of under-handed elitism - which is obviously enough to fool you and others like you!

Very true.

As recently as Losing to Djokovic in 3. "I guess he escaped"

Federer is the king of the backhanded compliment.

Ronaldo
04-22-2011, 10:46 AM
If Fed or any players were remotely close to classless as Serena, they also would get ripped apart.

Judge Smails said it best, eh?

TMF
04-22-2011, 10:51 AM
Very true.

As recently as Losing to Djokovic in 3. "I guess he escaped"

Federer is the king of the backhanded compliment.

Did you read my post? Champions of the past displayed arrogance, even your boy Sampras, but not to insults their peers like Serena got completely out of control. Have you ever seen an article that attacks a player’s character like it did to Serena? None that I’ve seen.

NamRanger
04-22-2011, 10:52 AM
Graf would easily take Venus everywhere so no.

NadalAgassi
04-22-2011, 11:05 AM
Second, i didn't even expect up to 15 people, who regurlarly visit this message board, to agree (or come close to agreeing) with me.

LOL there are only 9 other people voting who have agreed with you. "Unbeatable on grass only" is a far cry from what you have said.

Also I'm sure if you had worded the question more succinctly and logically, more may have agreed!

I worded it exactly as you put it. You said many times Venus playing her best is unbeatable by any women in history, and I could bring up many of your past quotes stating it just like that. You did not say would have a chance of beating anyone playing her best, you did not say on grass only, you did not say except for anything. So that is how I worded the first poll option.

DRII
04-22-2011, 11:08 AM
Graf would easily take Venus everywhere so no.

Psyche!!!!!

DRII
04-22-2011, 11:11 AM
I didn’t write that article, but I’m just a messenger. You attack the wrong person.

For the record, that article was published in the US, not from other country. You would expect the Americans protect their athletes, like they use to do.
However, not Serena, which speaks volume about how fans don't like Serena's character.


I'm not going by the article you quoted, but by your own words from 'I would add...'

Also, Serena's 'character' is far different from Venus'!

jones101
04-22-2011, 11:13 AM
I'm sorry but that doesn't take away her classless, sore loser attitude.

Great players of the past doesn't have to be this bitter. Arrogant, yeah, but they would never stoop this low. Even her own die-hard fans are CRUSHED, HURT, DISBELIEF !

She is definitely a sore loser, but she is not bitter.

I do agree with you somewhat but thats just the way she is, I kinda like her ego though.

BrooklynNY
04-22-2011, 11:13 AM
Did you read my post? Champions of the past displayed arrogance, even your boy Sampras, but not to insults their peers like Serena got completely out of control. Have you ever seen an article that attacks a player’s character like it did to Serena? None that I’ve seen.

I agree with you, not defending Serena's comments. She was out of line and lacked sportsmanship.

I just think it's because Fed is smart/diplomatic enough to never simply only say something negative - he superficially compliments as he insults.

I just think that you can't put lipstick on a pig...

heftylefty
04-22-2011, 11:49 AM
I read the article written by Selena Roberts regarding Serena William being "classless" after a lost to Henin. I recalled the presser and it was not a good moment for Serena. I also recalled that it happened in Sept 7, 2007. I just check my calendar to make sure it's 2011.

People, it was not Serena greatest moment, but hardly something rare in Pro Tennis. I'm always amazed how any post that contains the name Williams devolve into "Why we should hate Serena and her fans suck."

NadalAgassi
04-22-2011, 11:51 AM
Serena and Venus arent the most gracious losers but that is typical of most champions. Atleast they dont cheat like a certain rival of their was notorious for.

single_handed_champion
04-22-2011, 11:56 AM
Serena and Venus arent the most gracious losers but that is typical of most champions. Atleast they dont cheat like a certain rival of their was notorious for.

"Gracelessness in defeat is the worst kind of cheating in sport". - Andre Agassi, applauded by Rafael Nadal.

TMF
04-22-2011, 12:10 PM
I read the article written by Selena Roberts regarding Serena William being "classless" after a lost to Henin. I recalled the presser and it was not a good moment for Serena. I also recalled that it happened in Sept 7, 2007. I just check my calendar to make sure it's 2011.

People, it was not Serena greatest moment, but hardly something rare in Pro Tennis. I'm always amazed how any post that contains the name Williams devolve into "Why we should hate Serena and her fans suck."

Have you been paying attention?

It all started with Thundervolley called Sharapova’s win was a lucky, fluke(which is BS). Serena and her fans all makes the same excuses when she loses. You point out the date was back in 2007, but Sharapova’s victory over Serena was dated back in 2004, where her detractors spewing nonsense.

The same question apply to Maria..."Why we should hate pretty Maria".

DRII
04-22-2011, 12:15 PM
"Gracelessness in defeat is the worst kind of cheating in sport". - Andre Agassi, applauded by Rafael Nadal.


Right...

Its far better to take digs on former opponents (who have defeated you) later on, in the book you would write.

LDVTennis
04-22-2011, 12:26 PM
Have you been paying attention?

It all started with Thundervolley called Sharapova’s win was a lucky, fluke(which is BS). Serena and her fans all makes the same excuses when she loses. You point out the date was back in 2007, but Sharapova’s victory over Serena was dated back in 2004, where her detractors spewing nonsense.

The same question apply to Maria..."Why we should hate pretty Maria".

I recently watched that match on youtube. I had heard for years from Serena fans how lucky Sharapova was to win that match.

That's not what I saw. Sharapova played with great depth (down the middle) and she specifically attacked Serena's forehand.

Sharapova found a weakness in Serena's game that day. And, she exploited it.

heftylefty
04-22-2011, 12:33 PM
Have you been paying attention?

It all started with Thundervolley called Sharapova’s win was a lucky, fluke(which is BS). Serena and her fans all makes the same excuses when she loses. You point out the date was back in 2007, but Sharapova’s victory over Serena was dated back in 2004, where her detractors spewing nonsense.

The same question apply to Maria..."Why we should hate pretty Maria".

You're right. I forgot what a threat Maria Sharapova is in GS. How foolish of me.
http://www.wtatennis.com/headtohead/serena-williams_2255881_9044/0,,12781~9044~9499,00.html

Are head to head comparison, so misleading?

TMF
04-22-2011, 01:50 PM
You're right. I forgot what a threat Maria Sharapova is in GS. How foolish of me.
http://www.wtatennis.com/headtohead/serena-williams_2255881_9044/0,,12781~9044~9499,00.html

Are head to head comparison, so misleading?

So, you join with the **********s to support them for saying Maria's win was lucky, fluke? good to know. From now on, i won't take your opinion seriously.

heftylefty
04-22-2011, 02:00 PM
So, you join with the **********s to support them for saying Maria's win was lucky, fluke? good to know. From now on, i won't take your opinion seriously.

I'm crushed. But try not putting words in my mouth.

TMF
04-22-2011, 02:04 PM
I'm crushed. But try not putting words in my mouth.

Well, basing on your posts you are on their side. Don’t act so naïve.

NadalAgassi
04-22-2011, 02:22 PM
Maria is a 3 slam winner, so obviously she is not a fluke. However she is also is not a legend, if she were she would have 13 slams like Serena or 7 slams like Venus or Henin. And dont come up with the age thing nonsense since it is painfully obvious her best days are long past her now.

And 2 of her 3 slam wins come against Henin, which is big of course, but Henin is an easier matchup for her than Serena or than Venus on grass, which was discussed earlier.

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-22-2011, 05:21 PM
Are head to head comparison, so misleading?

Apparently, they are, since some actually try to elevate the fluke Wimbledon victor Sharapova on the level of players superior to her in majors victories and head-to-head match-ups. The truth often leads some to soak themselves with fantasy and revisionist history.

Do not be surprised if this little group tries to claim Sharapova was one of the top contenders at Wimbledon over her years on tour.

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-22-2011, 05:36 PM
The "lucky" concept. Wasn't that concept used by Serena Williams to describe opponents who defeated her???

Maria trounced Serena on center court Wimbledon in the 2004 Wimbledon final. Get over it.

Fluke win, and Sharapova--with her quickly exposed limitations--would never pull that off again at Wimbledon. Then, there's her horrible head-to-head against Serena after 2004. Oh yes, your Sharapova was a force to be....disregarded.

It is a bitter pill you will swallow as long as you deny real history.

cc0509
04-22-2011, 07:42 PM
Originally Posted by TMF
Have you been paying attention?

It all started with Thundervolley called Sharapova’s win was a lucky, fluke(which is BS). Serena and her fans all makes the same excuses when she loses. You point out the date was back in 2007, but Sharapova’s victory over Serena was dated back in 2004, where her detractors spewing nonsense.




I recently watched that match on youtube. I had heard for years from Serena fans how lucky Sharapova was to win that match.

That's not what I saw. Sharapova played with great depth (down the middle) and she specifically attacked Serena's forehand.

Sharapova found a weakness in Serena's game that day. And, she exploited it.

I agree. I remember watching that Serena/Maria 2004 Wimbledon final like it was yesterday. Sharapova outplayed Serena on that day. Serena's forehand was really off and Sharapova was outhitting Williams from the baseline. Plus Sharapova was serving well if I recall correctly. When Sharapova's serve was on (before she had the shoulder problems and surgery), she was hard to beat. I am not suggesting for a minute that Sharapova is a more talented player than Serena as that would be stupid, but, on that day in the 2004 Wimby final she was. No fluke.

Ronaldo
04-22-2011, 07:54 PM
I agree. I remember watching that Serena/Maria 2004 Wimbledon final like it was yesterday. Sharapova outplayed Serena on that day. Serena's forehand was really off and Sharapova was outhitting Williams from the baseline. Plus Sharapova was serving well if I recall correctly. When Sharapova's serve was on (before she had the shoulder problems and surgery), she was hard to beat. I am not suggesting for a minute that Sharapova is a more talented player than Serena as that would be stupid, but, on that day in the 2004 Wimby final she was. No fluke.

At least we saw the best of these players in the biggest match of their careers. If Francesca Schiavone can win the FO, well, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZOgP9PVhqQ

NadalAgassi
04-22-2011, 08:53 PM
I agree Maria definitely played an incredible match in the 04 Wimbledon final but that is just one match in the grand scheme of things. Whatever she did right that day she either was never able to duplicate again, or Serena made the neccessary adjustments after getting used to Maria's game while Maria could not counteract that by doing the same. They had a nice little rivalry building for awhile in 04-05 but after Serena's come from behind win over Maria at the 05 Australia she has had it easy with her ever since. That is just how it is.

Mick
04-22-2011, 11:03 PM
venus at her best could beat a whole lot of great players but suppose her opponent also plays out of her mind that day, who knows what would happen.

jones101
04-23-2011, 12:32 AM
re: Sharapova and her 3 slams

She beat quality players in each slam to win them, none of that was fluke.

She is a very good champion, but not a 'great' yet.

I think she is still capable of winning more, she can never be wrote off in that regard, until she hangs her rackets up for good.

Gizo
04-23-2011, 12:42 AM
In my opinion Peak Serena would beat peak Venus on grass as well as on hard courts or clay. Serena has had the much better 1st and 2nd serve, the better overall baseline game, a slightly better return (debatable though I agree) and the better focus and mental strength. Serena has a generally had a strong baseline game from both wings, while even in her prime Venus's forehand was a liability. It actually improved as she moved past her peak, while at the same time her backhand deteriorated.

Tony48
04-23-2011, 12:48 AM
Serena is probably the only one that could beat an "at her absolute best" Venus.

Instant classic, win or lose :p

Polaris
04-23-2011, 08:38 AM
To the OP, naaah. Serena at her best is unbeatable.

Venus, not at all.

MotherMarjorie
04-23-2011, 10:04 AM
Serena and Venus arent the most gracious losers but that is typical of most champions. Atleast they dont cheat like a certain rival of their was notorious for.
You mean when Serena tried bullying that poor Asian lineswoman at the US Open? Yeah, notorious it was.

Venus and Serena have always had the attitude that they are the best that ever played the sport of tennis. Their handlers lied to them and they lied to themselves. They simply never developed the social graces and class that real GOATS bestow because they were never destined for GOAT status in the sport of tennis.

Serena was always the grudge-filled bitter one. Venus, the aloof one who acted too busy to hang onto grudges.


Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

MotherMarjorie
04-23-2011, 10:09 AM
Maria is a 3 slam winner, so obviously she is not a fluke. However she is also is not a legend, if she were she would have 13 slams like Serena or 7 slams like Venus or Henin. And dont come up with the age thing nonsense since it is painfully obvious her best days are long past her now.

And 2 of her 3 slam wins come against Henin, which is big of course, but Henin is an easier matchup for her than Serena or than Venus on grass, which was discussed earlier.
Maria defeated Henin (once), Serena and Ivanovic in her grand slam final wins.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

MotherMarjorie
04-23-2011, 10:13 AM
Graf would easily take Venus everywhere so no.
Stefanie Graf would yank the aloof one around like a yo-yo and make her look like Gumby on grass, clay, hardcourt or even ice.

People tend to forget that Stefanie won a grand slam title on every surface at least four times. No man or woman has ever done that.

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

Joe Pike
04-23-2011, 01:19 PM
Stefanie Graf would yank the aloof one around like a yo-yo and make her look like Gumby on grass, clay, hardcourt or even ice.

People tend to forget that Stefanie won a grand slam title on every surface at least four times. ...

Stefanie won 7 slams on grass, 6 on clay and 9 on hardcourts.

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-25-2011, 05:48 AM
I agree Maria definitely played an incredible match in the 04 Wimbledon final but that is just one match in the grand scheme of things.

Exactly; her defenders try (with no luck) to extend that one win to her career vs. SW or VW, when the head-to-head records show Sharapova turned out to be a "quick read" as an opponent.

Whatever she did right that day she either was never able to duplicate again, or Serena made the neccessary adjustments after getting used to Maria's game while Maria could not counteract that by doing the same.

In large part due to Sharapova being a one-dimensional player, who is schooled by the likes of Wozniacki.

TMF
04-25-2011, 07:44 AM
Exactly; her defenders try (with no luck) to extend that one win to her career vs. SW or VW, when the head-to-head records show Sharapova turned out to be a "quick read" as an opponent.



In large part due to Sharapova being a one-dimensional player, who is schooled by the likes of Wozniacki.


Stay on topic clueless. We are talking about teenage Sharapova humbled Serena in 2004 SW19.


Apparently you have never seen that match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Xif8LhMuI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wultTOe657A&feature=related


http://media.onsugar.com/files/2011/01/03/2/1331/13311615/00/MariaSharapova_Wimbledon2004_hkb20.jpg

jones101
04-25-2011, 08:02 AM
Sharapova humbled Serena in 2004 SW19.

A humbling that Serena dearly needed too!

A lesson Serena hasn't forgotten since 2004!


Gritty win over Sharapova playing top level tennis. (Saved 3MP)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9MNjzgwu6k

GS Final Spanking - Sharapova is the top seed (Serena ranked in 80's)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZfwFwuTiEo

Miami Mauling Of 2nd Seed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpp23-5VCzo

3rd Set Charlston Beatdown Over Hottest player on tour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIbCy_9xHwA&feature=related

Wins 4th Round Slugfest At Wimby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ORFXqdBNA

Serena ate her humble pie and learned a lesson.

NadalAgassi
04-25-2011, 09:47 AM
A humbling that Serena dearly needed too!

A lesson Serena hasn't forgotten since 2004!


Gritty win over Sharapova playing top level tennis. (Saved 3MP)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9MNjzgwu6k

GS Final Spanking - Sharapova is the top seed (Serena ranked in 80's)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZfwFwuTiEo

Miami Mauling Of 2nd Seed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpp23-5VCzo

3rd Set Charlston Beatdown Over Hottest player on tour
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIbCy_9xHwA&feature=related

Wins 4th Round Slugfest At Wimby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ORFXqdBNA

Serena ate her humble pie and learned a lesson.

Exactly. Serena did indeed get her *** kicked that day, but she stormed back with a veangance, and after a brief period where a nice rivalry contined has made Maria her personal lapdog since. The 2007 Australian Open was an even worse smackdown by far than Wimbledon 2004, and an embarassment for World #2 Maria as she was facing then World #81 or something Serena who had been mostly inactive for 2 years and was badly out of shape at the time. However of course TMF will never bring up that match or will have 1000 excuses for it if he does, and will keep trumpeting the 04 Wimbledon final as if it was the only match they have ever played against each other, LOL!

TMF
04-25-2011, 10:23 AM
It's just to prove that Serena is NOT unbeatable at her best. If a young Maria can humbled a muti-slam winners(Serena), I'm sure a player like Graf would have slaughtered her.

NadalAgassi
04-25-2011, 10:29 AM
It's just to prove that Serena is NOT unbeatable at her best. If a young Maria can humbled a muti-slam winners(Serena), I'm sure a player like Graf would have slaughtered her.

If Graf in her prime could get destroyed by Mary Pierce in a slam semifinal, lose at Wimbledon in the FIRST round to someone like Lori McNeil, and lose a U.S Open final on fast hard courts to clay courter Sanchez Vicario, all in the same year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyidS1Mwf6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnVp6_NOwis

.....then I am sure Serena would have slaughtered her. See how simple that works (of course I know you still wont).

adidasman
04-25-2011, 12:16 PM
If Graf in her prime could get destroyed by Mary Pierce in a slam semifinal, lose at Wimbledon in the FIRST round to someone like Lori McNeil, and lose a U.S Open final on fast hard courts to clay courter Sanchez Vicario, all in the same year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyidS1Mwf6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnVp6_NOwis

.....then I am sure Serena would have slaughtered her. See how simple that works (of course I know you still wont). Yeah, these arguments are always so specious. Why bother? Graf and Serena, both in their primes, would have been close on hard courts; I'd give Graf the more definite edge on grass and clay. But the word "slaughter" should never enter the conversation when discussing players of this caliber. Yeah, one might humble the other on a given day, but that wouldn't mean much overall.

Ludwig von Mises
04-25-2011, 01:44 PM
No. not unbeatable. Always has had many holes in her game, especially on the forehand side. Her movement is also overrated. I think someone can slice her and carve her up with angles; either in a Johnny Mac- SV style or the heavy topspin angle style of Nadal.

TMF
04-25-2011, 02:30 PM
If Graf in her prime could get destroyed by Mary Pierce in a slam semifinal, lose at Wimbledon in the FIRST round to someone like Lori McNeil, and lose a U.S Open final on fast hard courts to clay courter Sanchez Vicario, all in the same year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyidS1Mwf6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnVp6_NOwis

.....then I am sure Serena would have slaughtered her. See how simple that works (of course I know you still wont).

Graf have played over a 1,000 matches in her life, so of course she’s going to have a few bad losses. Yet, you have to cherry pick the losses and actually think you got a good premise. Nice try. I’m not going to bother listing all of Serena’s bad losses b/c you will cry out "HATER".

When was the time when a teenage Maria was playing on a big stage before she crushed Serena(upset of the decade)? None. Meanwhile, Serena had all the experience. She’s not suppose to lose. It was like David vs. Goliath! The match reminded me of a teenage Austin upsetting a mighty powerful Chris Evert in 1980 US Open.

Polaris
04-25-2011, 03:32 PM
If Graf in her prime could get destroyed by Mary Pierce in a slam semifinal, lose at Wimbledon in the FIRST round to someone like Lori McNeil, and lose a U.S Open final on fast hard courts to clay courter Sanchez Vicario,

.....then I am sure Serena would have slaughtered her. See how simple that works (of course I know you still wont).

Back to your old tricks, daveyboy aka capriatifanatic aka nadalgirl? :)

NadalAgassi
04-25-2011, 03:34 PM
Graf have played over a 1,000 matches in her life, so of course she’s going to have a few bad losses. Yet, you have to cherry pick the losses and actually think you got a good premise. Nice try. I’m not going to bother listing all of Serena’s bad losses b/c you will cry out "HATER".

When was the time when a teenage Maria was playing on a big stage before she crushed Serena(upset of the decade)? None. Meanwhile, Serena had all the experience. She’s not suppose to lose. It was like David vs. Goliath! The match reminded me of a teenage Austin upsetting a mighty powerful Chris Evert in 1980 US Open.

1. Graf did not play a bad match in her losses to Pierce and McNeil in 94. She was just outplayed in both, the Pierce one by a wide margin. If you actually saw both matches you would understand this. hint- Graf isnt god, even if you think she is the GOAT.

2. I am not cherry picking anything. You are the idiot implying you can draw a baseless accustion from ONE match- eg: Serena got destroyed by Sharapova once so Graf would slaughter her for sure. You are the one choosing to focus on Serenas worst showing ever in a major final and milking it until the cows bleed since they have run out of milk, so of course I am going to bring up some of Steffis more bad defeats as an example to exemplify the lack of logic in your reasoning.

3. As for your Austin and Evert example, Evert is still rated today as one of the top 3 players of all time. Heck there are some who would rate her over Graf. So all the more foolish you seem to imply Serenas showing on that one days detracts from her abilities as a player. If anyone should be embarassed it is #1 seeded Sharapova, who was supposed to be emerging as the games dominant player, yet got demolished far worse than the 04 Wimbledon player to an overweight World #81 who had hardly played any competitive tennis in the last year. Or for that matter the great Graf who let herself get bageled and nearly lost to a fatso with tendonitis playing her 2nd tournament in 28 months (Seles in the 95 U.S Open final of course). Serena has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, especialy as she firmly put Maria in her place in the years and many matches to follow. Maria had her day that day, Serena has had many more of them though.

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-25-2011, 06:45 PM
1. Graf did not play a bad match in her losses to Pierce and McNeil in 94. She was just outplayed in both, the Pierce one by a wide margin. If you actually saw both matches you would understand this. hint- Graf isnt god, even if you think she is the GOAT.

Fantastic point; Graf was not invincible--but as you point out, if some actually watched the matches you list, then such discussions would not be necessary.


2. I am not cherry picking anything. You are the idiot implying you can draw a baseless accustion from ONE match- eg: Serena got destroyed by Sharapova once so Graf would slaughter her for sure. You are the one choosing to focus on Serenas worst showing ever in a major final and milking it until the cows bleed since they have run out of milk, so of course I am going to bring up some of Steffis more bad defeats as an example to exemplify the lack of logic in your reasoning.

Yet another collection fine points. Anyone attempting to alter Sharapova's rapid decline vs. Serena is putting on a show of utter desperation. Again, Sharapova's Wimbledon win was a pure fluke--much like her "success" vs. the Williams sisters.

If anyone should be embarassed it is #1 seeded Sharapova, who was supposed to be emerging as the games dominant player, yet got demolished far worse than the 04 Wimbledon player to an overweight World #81 who had hardly played any competitive tennis in the last year. Or for that matter the great Graf who let herself get bageled and nearly lost to a fatso with tendonitis playing her 2nd tournament in 28 months (Seles in the 95 U.S Open final of course).

She was overrated--sold as the "next big thing," but that was a joke, as she never dominated any period at any of the majors she's participated in. Such is the price of unwarranted hype based on a patently false image, and the past few years have served to tear away the hype she never deserved.


Serena has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of, especialy as she firmly put Maria in her place in the years and many matches to follow. Maria had her day that day, Serena has had many more of them though.

Agreed. In the grand scheme of things, Sharapova's true place in history is not impessive or particularly memorable.

TMF
04-25-2011, 06:56 PM
No one said Sharapova > Serena overall. But that doesn’t take away a little girl(Maria) beating a two times defending champion in 2004. Didn’t Serena crushed Capriati in just 40 minutes? She was suppose to win W that year, and Maria was not even dark horse. And like I said, If a 24 yrs old Serena can be crushed by Maria, it just prove that Serena can be beaten at her best more easily than some people put it.

DRII
04-25-2011, 07:24 PM
No. not unbeatable. Always has had many holes in her game, especially on the forehand side. Her movement is also overrated. I think someone can slice her and carve her up with angles; either in a Johnny Mac- SV style or the heavy topspin angle style of Nadal.

And who exactly is this mysterious someone? What woman playing their best has the top spin angles of a Nadal or the serve and volley / slicing genius of john McEnroe. None!

This thread is about two women at their best facing one another or more precisely, Venus at her best vs another at their best. Its certainly a hypothetical, but you've veered into the realm of fantasy!

Ludwig von Mises
04-25-2011, 09:29 PM
And who exactly is this mysterious someone? What woman playing their best has the top spin angles of a Nadal or the serve and volley / slicing genius of john McEnroe. None!

This thread is about two women at their best facing one another or more precisely, Venus at her best vs another at their best. Its certainly a hypothetical, but you've veered into the realm of fantasy!

You are such an idiot in every single post you make. I point was that a women player could use these tactics if they had that type of game and cause Venus problems. I didnt want to get into Graf would this, and Seles could do that type of scenarios because it would start a whole debate about Graf as GOAT and on and on. I should just have left Johnny Mac and Ralph's names out of it because ******s like you cannot think conceptually. You just react "wait, wait, wait, what, what Mcenroe is a male player! Nadal plays on the ATP! Venus is on the WTA!" Use your brain, think of someone playing a disruptive game with angles and spin; even some of the pathetic women's players can do this.

NadalAgassi
04-25-2011, 09:35 PM
No one said Sharapova > Serena overall. But that doesn’t take away a little girl(Maria) beating a two times defending champion in 2004. Didn’t Serena crushed Capriati in just 40 minutes? She was suppose to win W that year, and Maria was not even dark horse. And like I said, If a 24 yrs old Serena can be crushed by Maria, it just prove that Serena can be beaten at her best more easily than some people put it.

Serena wasnt playing anywhere near her best that day. She wasnt even playing well for her standards that day in fact. Her footing and balance that day was shockingly bad, her forehand timing was badly off, her 2nd serve was unusually ordinary, she missed many easy volleys too. That takes nothing away from Marias outstanding performance that day, destroying Serena in a slam final is a mighty effort period (since Serena is such a great player after all which you refuse to acknowledge). On that day I would agree Maria was virtually unbeatable, heck she probably would have beaten Graf too that particular day which makes your attempted point (since you now make it evident it goes far beyond trying to simply credit Marias performance and is simply another thinly veiled attempt to trash Serena) all the more futile. Of course unfortunately from there Maria didnt develop her game as opponents got more used to it she has rarely been allowed to reach such heights again, and is such she did not progress to being one of the legendary champions of her era but simply one of the secondary greats of her generation at most, but that is another matter. Point is that it in no way serves as proof that Serena at her BEST is easily beatable. And Serena in 2004 was certainly not at her best anyway period, as evidenced by her failure to win a major title that year in a year Myskina and Kuznetsova each won one, and a slamless Davenport ended the year #1, along with losing twice in slams to a past her prime Capriati. Of course you will ignore this obvious truth as well though.

That said I agree no player even at their best is completely unbeatable, including Serena. Serena at her best is closer to it than almost anyone else ever has been though. And the idea Graf would slaughter Serena most times with both at their best is comical. Graf couldnt even slaughter Gabriela Sabatini most of the 40 times they played. Graf vs Serena would be a major war. Serena at her best is clearly better than Seles at her best, and Seles at her best was a thorn in the side of Graf for awhile.

DRII
04-26-2011, 06:19 AM
You are such an idiot in every single post you make. I point was that a women player could use these tactics if they had that type of game and cause Venus problems. I didnt want to get into Graf would this, and Seles could do that type of scenarios because it would start a whole debate about Graf as GOAT and on and on. I should just have left Johnny Mac and Ralph's names out of it because ******s like you cannot think conceptually. You just react "wait, wait, wait, what, what Mcenroe is a male player! Nadal plays on the ATP! Venus is on the WTA!" Use your brain, think of someone playing a disruptive game with angles and spin; even some of the pathetic women's players can do this.

You obviously missed the entire point of this thread and can not comprehend the question!

I won't waste anymore of my time...

Although, the question was poorly worded in the first place.

jones101
04-26-2011, 07:15 AM
And like I said, If a 24 yrs old Serena can be crushed by Maria, it just prove that Serena can be beaten at her best more easily than some people put it.

Maria deserved her Wimbledon victory 100%, but that was not the best version of Serena, age does not = best level always

THUNDERVOLLEY
04-26-2011, 07:23 AM
Serena wasnt playing anywhere near her best that day. She wasnt even playing well for her standards that day in fact. Her footing and balance that day was shockingly bad, her forehand timing was badly off, her 2nd serve was unusually ordinary, she missed many easy volleys too.

That is a crucial point: how much credit can we give Sharapova if a clearly superior player is having an off day? Considering the problems you pointed out--and all were true that day--I believe it was more of a case of Serena beating herself, because hypothetically speaking, Serena--free of the cited problems of that day--was not going to lose to anyone, no matter how much the opponent tried to take it from her.


On that day I would agree Maria was virtually unbeatable, heck she probably would have beaten Graf too that particular day which makes your attempted point (since you now make it evident it goes far beyond trying to simply credit Marias performance and is simply another thinly veiled attempt to trash Serena) all the more futile.

True, though on the Graf point, I think a healthy Graf would have left Sharapova in a defeated pile.

Point is that it in no way serves as proof that Serena at her BEST is easily beatable. And Serena in 2004 was certainly not at her best anyway period, as evidenced by her failure to win a major title that year in a year Myskina and Kuznetsova each won one, and a slamless Davenport ended the year #1, along with losing twice in slams to a past her prime Capriati. Of course you will ignore this obvious truth as well though.

Right on point. It is funny how some try to ignore the details and make the claim that the Serena of that Wimbledon final was Williams at her all-time best, when that was clearly far from the truth, so again, it forces a reconsideration of just how much of that win had to do with Sharapova's skills.

And the idea Graf would slaughter Serena most times with both at their best is comical. Graf couldnt even slaughter Gabriela Sabatini most of the 40 times they played. Graf vs Serena would be a major war. Serena at her best is clearly better than Seles at her best, and Seles at her best was a thorn in the side of Graf for awhile.

Interesting comparisons.

MotherMarjorie
04-30-2011, 08:25 AM
Attention Participants:

In the spirit of historical accuracy, please do not ever reference Venus Williams, Serena Williams, or Maria Sharapova in the same sentence as Stefanie Graf. Venus, Serena and Maria do not deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Stefanie Graf historically.

Combining the accomplishments of the singles careers of Serena, Venus and Maria barely surpasses that of a singular Stefanie Graf.

Thank You,

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

TMF
04-30-2011, 08:52 AM
You obviously missed the entire point of this thread and can not comprehend the question!

I won't waste anymore of my time...

Although, the question was poorly worded in the first place.


Well, this thread is a joke by the OP in the first place. But he ask a question "Do you believe Venus Williams at her best was unbeatable". You actually vote YES, so that doesn't make you look good either.

MotherMarjorie
04-30-2011, 09:00 AM
Stay on topic clueless. We are talking about teenage Sharapova humbled Serena in 2004 SW19.


Apparently you have never seen that match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Xif8LhMuI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wultTOe657A&feature=related


http://media.onsugar.com/files/2011/01/03/2/1331/13311615/00/MariaSharapova_Wimbledon2004_hkb20.jpg
Wasn't that the same year that the aloof sister lost in the third round (because someone cheated her, of course).

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

TMF
04-30-2011, 09:08 AM
Attention Participants:

In the spirit of historical accuracy, please do not ever reference Venus Williams, Serena Williams, or Maria Sharapova in the same sentence as Stefanie Graf. Venus, Serena and Maria do not deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as Stefanie Graf historically.

Combining the accomplishments of the singles careers of Serena, Venus and Maria barely surpasses that of a singular Stefanie Graf.

Thank You,

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

It all got started when Ronaldo just made a harmless opinion.
Remarkable this thread exists when Venus is 30 yrs old. Sharapova, at her best was unbeatable on every surface except clay.

But those clown (Thundervolley & NadalAgassi) got so defensive and had to do everything to dismiss Maria embarrassed Serena at SW19. Absolutely no respect all...just like all the excuses Serena had for her losses.

jones101
04-30-2011, 09:32 AM
Wasn't that the same year that the aloof sister lost in the third round (because someone cheated her, of course).

Mother Marjorie Ann
Empress of Talk Tennis Warehouse

No, as a Venus fan I can say she lost becuase she was not good enough that year, and her opponent played well.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-02-2011, 09:20 AM
But those clown (Thundervolley & NadalAgassi) got so defensive and had to do everything to dismiss Maria embarrassed Serena at SW19. Absolutely no respect all...just like all the excuses Serena had for her losses.

....and childish flames (seen above) are all you are about, since this is repeatedly quoted and pointed out in every thread you enter, including the Former Player forum. In this case, it is triggered by your inability to accept Sharapova as a failed, one-trick pony at Wimbledon, and a player with a joke of a H2H against Serena Williams.

Poor baby. The truth hurts.

Aww.

TMF
05-02-2011, 10:08 AM
....and childish flames (seen above) are all you are about, since this is repeatedly quoted and pointed out in every thread you enter, including the Former Player forum. In this case, it is triggered by your inability to accept Sharapova as a failed, one-trick pony at Wimbledon, and a player with a joke of a H2H against Serena Williams.

Poor baby. The truth hurts.

Aww.

I’m just pointing the fact that you(and your friend NadalAgassi) are bitter about Maria’s humbling Serena in 2004. Like Serena, like her fans…always making lame excuses after a loss. If that’s not disrespectful to the other players, then nothing is.



Maria is one of the 10 most famous female athletes...

10 Most Famous Female Athletes Ever
Female athletes have a reputation of not being as popular as male athletes, but below is a list of the ten most famous female athletes. They are beloved among many people, even if they don't get as big of a spotlight as the men.

1.Mia Hamm- Mia Hamm has won gold medals, championships, and endorsements as an athlete can dream for. Mia played soccer and is the female version of David Beckham, and is an easy first choice for the ten most famous female athletes.
2.Jennie Finch- Finch earned her reputation as one of the most famous female athletes by pitching for team USA in the summer Olympics. Jennie is possibly the greatest softball pitcher who has ever graced the mound, male or female.
3.Billy Jean King- Billy Jean King rose to celebrity status in the 1960's and became a role model for all females across the United States. Earning a reputation for one of the nastiest serves, Billy Jean dominated the tennis courts.
4.Lisa Leslie- There is nothing inferior about her talent on the basketball court. Lisa Leslie is the female version of Michael Jordan and gets just as much respect as him too. She has appeared as a cameo on many television programs and built her self a reputation as one of the most famous female athletes ever.
5.Maria Sharapova- Maria has gained just as much attention for her amazing abilities on the tennis court as she has for her amazing looks. Sharapova was even invited to pose in an issue of the "Sport's Illustrated, Swimsuit issue".
6.Michelle Wei- Michelle Wei gained much attention as being a golf prodigy and went pro at the young age of 16. Wei might not get the publicity of Tiger Woods but she is a national icon in her home country.
7.Heather Mitts- Heather Mitts is another amazing female soccer player who currently plays for Philadelphia. She is famous for her her teamwork and ability to dribble the ball. Heather Mitts is in the elite in her respective sport.
8.Marion Jones- Marion Jones can not seem to stay out of head lines. Unfortunately for her, it is not for a good thing all the time, but hey fame is fame, and Marion Jones is one of the most famous female athletes.
9.Danica Patrick- You might recognize Danica as the official "Go Daddy" girl but she is known by her fans as that girl who can really race. Danica is the first girl to ever join Nascar and she is proving she belongs.
10.Michelle Kwan- Michelle Kwan has done something no female has ever done. She has brought figure skating into the national spotlight, and because she was able to do it she is one of the most famous female athletes.
So there they are. The ten most famous female athletes. Some are known for good publicity, others are known for bad publicity, but in the end publicity is the one thing they all have in common.

Your 13 slam winners(Serena) can't even make the list.

Poor baby. The truth hurts.

Ronaldo
05-02-2011, 10:11 AM
I’m just pointing the fact that you(and your friend NadalAgassi) are bitter about Maria’s humbling Serena in 2004. Like Serena, like her fans…always making lame excuses after a loss. If that’s not disrespectful to the other players, then nothing is.



Maria is one of the 10 most famous female athletes...

10 Most Famous Female Athletes Ever
Female athletes have a reputation of not being as popular as male athletes, but below is a list of the ten most famous female athletes. They are beloved among many people, even if they don't get as big of a spotlight as the men.

1.Mia Hamm- Mia Hamm has won gold medals, championships, and endorsements as an athlete can dream for. Mia played soccer and is the female version of David Beckham, and is an easy first choice for the ten most famous female athletes.
2.Jennie Finch- Finch earned her reputation as one of the most famous female athletes by pitching for team USA in the summer Olympics. Jennie is possibly the greatest softball pitcher who has ever graced the mound, male or female.
3.Billy Jean King- Billy Jean King rose to celebrity status in the 1960's and became a role model for all females across the United States. Earning a reputation for one of the nastiest serves, Billy Jean dominated the tennis courts.
4.Lisa Leslie- There is nothing inferior about her talent on the basketball court. Lisa Leslie is the female version of Michael Jordan and gets just as much respect as him too. She has appeared as a cameo on many television programs and built her self a reputation as one of the most famous female athletes ever.
5.Maria Sharapova- Maria has gained just as much attention for her amazing abilities on the tennis court as she has for her amazing looks. Sharapova was even invited to pose in an issue of the "Sport's Illustrated, Swimsuit issue".
6.Michelle Wei- Michelle Wei gained much attention as being a golf prodigy and went pro at the young age of 16. Wei might not get the publicity of Tiger Woods but she is a national icon in her home country.
7.Heather Mitts- Heather Mitts is another amazing female soccer player who currently plays for Philadelphia. She is famous for her her teamwork and ability to dribble the ball. Heather Mitts is in the elite in her respective sport.
8.Marion Jones- Marion Jones can not seem to stay out of head lines. Unfortunately for her, it is not for a good thing all the time, but hey fame is fame, and Marion Jones is one of the most famous female athletes.
9.Danica Patrick- You might recognize Danica as the official "Go Daddy" girl but she is known by her fans as that girl who can really race. Danica is the first girl to ever join Nascar and she is proving she belongs.
10.Michelle Kwan- Michelle Kwan has done something no female has ever done. She has brought figure skating into the national spotlight, and because she was able to do it she is one of the most famous female athletes.
So there they are. The ten most famous female athletes. Some are known for good publicity, others are known for bad publicity, but in the end publicity is the one thing they all have in common.

Your 13 slam winners(Serena) can't even make the list.

Poor baby. The truth hurts.

Where's Graf?

heftylefty
05-02-2011, 10:12 AM
Where's Graf?

Wow...That's classic!!! Nice

TMF
05-02-2011, 10:31 AM
Wow...That's classic!!! Nice

What so classic? Graf was in the 90s. Had she was playing in this era, she would have easily made the top ten. The article was published in March 2010... http://www.mademan.com/mm/10-most-famous-female-athletes-ever.html , when Serena was #1 in the world. And for her not to make the top list tells you how unpopular she is.

Joe Pike
05-02-2011, 11:01 AM
I’m just pointing the fact that you(and your friend NadalAgassi) are bitter about Maria’s humbling Serena in 2004. Like Serena, like her fans…always making lame excuses after a loss. If that’s not disrespectful to the other players, then nothing is.



Maria is one of the 10 most famous female athletes...

10 Most Famous Female Athletes Ever
Female athletes have a reputation of not being as popular as male athletes, but below is a list of the ten most famous female athletes. They are beloved among many people, even if they don't get as big of a spotlight as the men.

1.Mia Hamm- Mia Hamm has won gold medals, championships, and endorsements as an athlete can dream for. Mia played soccer and is the female version of David Beckham, and is an easy first choice for the ten most famous female athletes.
2.Jennie Finch- Finch earned her reputation as one of the most famous female athletes by pitching for team USA in the summer Olympics. Jennie is possibly the greatest softball pitcher who has ever graced the mound, male or female.
3.Billy Jean King- Billy Jean King rose to celebrity status in the 1960's and became a role model for all females across the United States. Earning a reputation for one of the nastiest serves, Billy Jean dominated the tennis courts.
4.Lisa Leslie- There is nothing inferior about her talent on the basketball court. Lisa Leslie is the female version of Michael Jordan and gets just as much respect as him too. She has appeared as a cameo on many television programs and built her self a reputation as one of the most famous female athletes ever.
5.Maria Sharapova- Maria has gained just as much attention for her amazing abilities on the tennis court as she has for her amazing looks. Sharapova was even invited to pose in an issue of the "Sport's Illustrated, Swimsuit issue".
6.Michelle Wei- Michelle Wei gained much attention as being a golf prodigy and went pro at the young age of 16. Wei might not get the publicity of Tiger Woods but she is a national icon in her home country.
7.Heather Mitts- Heather Mitts is another amazing female soccer player who currently plays for Philadelphia. She is famous for her her teamwork and ability to dribble the ball. Heather Mitts is in the elite in her respective sport.
8.Marion Jones- Marion Jones can not seem to stay out of head lines. Unfortunately for her, it is not for a good thing all the time, but hey fame is fame, and Marion Jones is one of the most famous female athletes.
9.Danica Patrick- You might recognize Danica as the official "Go Daddy" girl but she is known by her fans as that girl who can really race. Danica is the first girl to ever join Nascar and she is proving she belongs.
10.Michelle Kwan- Michelle Kwan has done something no female has ever done. She has brought figure skating into the national spotlight, and because she was able to do it she is one of the most famous female athletes.
So there they are. The ten most famous female athletes. Some are known for good publicity, others are known for bad publicity, but in the end publicity is the one thing they all have in common.

Your 13 slam winners(Serena) can't even make the list.

Poor baby. The truth hurts.



I have never heard of Finch, Leslie, Wei, Mitts and Patrick in my life.
Hamm and Jones are known only to real sports fans in Europe.
So you mean famous to Americans, do you?

heftylefty
05-02-2011, 11:05 AM
What so classic? Graf was in the 90s. Had she was playing in this era, she would have easily made the top ten. The article was published in March 2010... http://www.mademan.com/mm/10-most-famous-female-athletes-ever.html , when Serena was #1 in the world. And for her not to make the top list tells you how unpopular she is.

If don't know how to use the word "ever", then you should try not to use the word.

TMF
05-02-2011, 11:18 AM
I have never heard of Finch, Leslie, Wei, Mitts and Patrick in my life.
Hamm and Jones are known only to real sports fans in Europe.
So you mean famous to Americans, do you?

Yep, it was target to the american audience.

Ronaldo
05-02-2011, 11:18 AM
I have never heard of Finch, Leslie, Wei, Mitts and Patrick in my life.
Hamm and Jones are known only to real sports fans in Europe.
So you mean famous to Americans, do you?

Surprised Leslie was picked over Cheryl Miller but that was so 80s. Still, to score 105 pts in a HS game.

TMF
05-02-2011, 11:20 AM
If don't know how to use the word "ever", then you should try not to use the word.

What is your problem? All I did was just pointing out to ignorant thundervolley stated that Maria was a failure. So Graf didn’t make the list...and you scream "CLASSIC!!!". WTF.:evil:

TMF
05-02-2011, 11:22 AM
Surprised Leslie was picked over Cheryl Miller but that was so 80s. Still, to score 105 pts in a HS game.

Leslie played for the WNBA. Back then, there wasn't much oppotunity for Cheryl b/c there wasn't any pro league.

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-02-2011, 11:33 AM
What is your problem? All I did was just pointing out to ignorant thundervolley stated that Maria was a failure. So Graf didn’t make the list...and you scream "CLASSIC!!!". WTF.:evil:

My constant point in this thread is that she was a fluke Wimbledon winner, which remains true, no matter how much you lie to yourself about that fact. You--unlike everyone else--failed to realize Sharapova was not suited to be a force at Wimbledon, or against Serena.

Poor, bitter child. Dry your tears.

Ronaldo
05-02-2011, 11:37 AM
Realize that Top Ten list is comprised of athletes that had great commercial success. Go Daddy, eh?

TMF
05-02-2011, 11:48 AM
My constant point in this thread is that she was a fluke Wimbledon winner, which remains true, no matter how much you lie to yourself about that fact. You--unlike everyone else--failed to realize Sharapova was not suited to be a force at Wimbledon, or against Serena.

Poor, bitter child. Dry your tears.

Maria beat your idol fair and square. Actually, it wasn’t even close, so no fluke. Great win for Maria. Cry me a river b/c I don’t care.

Fluke is when certain environmental condition changes that benefitted a certain player. Take 2009 AO for example...Serena was SAVED by heat after the roof was close. Serena was suffering from the heat and was on the brink of losing the match. Luckily for unfit Serena, they decide to close the roof and Serena recovered just in time to win the match.

That's what you call fluke. Capiche ?

THUNDERVOLLEY
05-02-2011, 12:49 PM
Maria beat your idol fair and square. Actually, it wasn’t even close, so no fluke

Hers was fluke win, never to be repeated again. Wait a second...let's look at the year following her fluke win...hmm........nope, no more Sharapova Wimbledon victories.

Not a surprise.

Sharapova was ill equipped to win another Wimbledon title, and lost to SW in any other majors finals where they faced each other (not to mention that one-sided H2H).

Swallow it, and dry your eyes.


...or continue to whine and lie, as you do on around the TW clock.

heftylefty
05-02-2011, 12:55 PM
TMF, you really need to get some air, and a little prospective.

Don't post a weak list for the Most Famous Female Athletes EVER when the list include athletes of little note. The fact that Graf was not on your list should have been reason enough not to post it. In "Classic" form, you didn't think about that.

Yes, Sharapova is the most famous tennis player to win just 3 slams.

Try not to confuse popularity with accomplishment.

jerriy
05-02-2011, 01:04 PM
I have never heard of Finch, Leslie, Wei, Mitts and Patrick in my life.
Hamm and Jones are known only to real sports fans in Europe.
So you mean famous to Americans, do you?Yer right on your first point but wrong on Marion Jones.

She's really famous in Europe (to the extent that athletes can be famous) among even casual people who watch the Olympics only and not just among sport-freaks.

jerriy
05-02-2011, 01:09 PM
I bet marion Jones is more famous in Europe than all those women on that list except Sharapova.

TMF
05-02-2011, 01:15 PM
Hers was fluke win, never to be repeated again. Wait a second...let's look at the year following her fluke win...hmm........nope, no more Sharapova Wimbledon victories.

Not a surprise.

Sharapova was ill equipped to win another Wimbledon title, and lost to SW in any other majors finals where they faced each other (not to mention that one-sided H2H).

Swallow it, and dry your eyes.


...or continue to whine and lie, as you do on around the TW clock.

Clueless...you have never saw that W match.



Lies? You have never watch 2009 AO either....

Fluke is when certain environmental condition changes that benefitted a certain player. Take 2009 AO for example...Serena was SAVED by heat after the roof was close. Serena was suffering from the heat and was on the brink of losing the match. Luckily for unfit Serena, they decide to close the roof and Serena recovered just in time to win the match.

That's what you call fluke. Capiche ?

TMF
05-02-2011, 01:32 PM
TMF, you really need to get some air, and a little prospective.

Don't post a weak list for the Most Famous Female Athletes EVER when the list include athletes of little note. The fact that Graf was not on your list should have been reason enough not to post it. In "Classic" form, you didn't think about that.

Yes, Sharapova is the most famous tennis player to win just 3 slams.

Try not to confuse popularity with accomplishment.

IF you disagree then just explain why you disagree, but don’t make childish comment. In every poll result, there’s always be a few fans out there who doesn’t actually agree with everything, and I’m not trying to convince to you either. Capiche ?

Just b/c Graf isn’t on the list doesn’t mean it’s a "CLASSIC!!!" So if someone believe Kersee or Lou Retton should belong on the list should scream "CLASSIC!!!" if their name is left out?

Now that’s Classic !

Joe Pike
05-02-2011, 01:34 PM
Yer right on your first point but wrong on Marion Jones.

She's really famous in Europe (to the extent that athletes can be famous) among even casual people who watch the Olympics only and not just among sport-freaks.


Her Olympic medals were long ago.
I'm quite sure that in Germany less than 2 percent would recognize her name.
Serena Williams has quite a name recognition here (more than 25 percent for sure), but her face is virtually unknown as tennis isn't broadcast in Germany anymore and she has no TV commercials here. Navratilova, Evert and Seles were well known because they played against Steffi Graf.

In Europe it is football, football and football today. And formula one, a little bit winter sports. Tennis is almost dead, track and field IS dead. Nobody knows Kaymer although he was golf's #1 until recently. He is from my hometown but the majority here has never heard his name ...

jerriy
05-02-2011, 09:12 PM
^ I was comparing her With the 10 women who were in that list.

Marion's more famous than almost all of those.

Ronaldo
05-02-2011, 09:53 PM
^ I was comparing her With the 10 women who were in that list.

Marion's more famous than almost all of those.

Famous or infamous?

TMF
05-03-2011, 10:02 AM
71 people vote "no"
11 people vote "yes"


Of the 11 people - AkilKB, Colin, DRII, Federerx16, Gimmick, hoodjem, jones101, MichaelNadal, philxor, Ronaldo, WinNCash

hoodjem, I'm disappointed in you.

SempreSami
05-03-2011, 11:00 AM
With that ugly backhand, horrendous screech and cheating ball toss cancelling when she's up against it? Perhaps.

TMF
05-03-2011, 11:05 AM
With that ugly backhand, horrendous screech and cheating ball toss cancelling when she's up against it? Perhaps.

Even if Venus cheat or takes any of the advantage you’ve stated, she’s still BEATABLE !