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View Full Version : Almugro in the top 10? It can only mean one thing...


aphex
04-22-2011, 05:13 AM
...the itf/atp need to cut down the clay tournaments in half
and replace them with indoor carpet/wood/superfast HC (faster than Paris).

Seriously, what is Almugro doing in the top 10 and the FAR more talented Llodra @ 24???

Tennis has a surface problem!

single_handed_champion
04-22-2011, 05:18 AM
If Llodra is really so talented, how come he lost twice in a row to a rookie Raonic (even being bageled on clay :) )?

aphex
04-22-2011, 05:21 AM
If Llodra is really so talented, how come he lost twice in a row to a rookie Raonic (even being bageled on clay :) )?

If Sampras is so talented, how come he lost to rookie Federer in Wimbledon?

dominikk1985
04-22-2011, 05:23 AM
...the itf/atp need to cut down the clay tournaments in half
and replace them with indoor carpet/wood/superfast HC (faster than Paris).

Seriously, what is Almugro doing in the top 10 and the FAR more talented Llodra @ 24???

Tennis has a surface problem!

llodra is 31 years old. I think it's astonishing that he is ranked that high.

Still I'm a big fan of him and would like some indoor carpet tournaments.

Retra
04-22-2011, 05:29 AM
...the itf/atp need to cut down the clay tournaments in half
and replace them with indoor carpet/wood/superfast HC (faster than Paris).

¿Indoor carpet surfaces? Those surfaces in that Llodra has a record of 10 victories and 17 defeats. Are your sure, dude? :-?

aphex
04-22-2011, 05:29 AM
llodra is 31 years old. I think it's astonishing that he is ranked that high.

Still I'm a big fan of him and would like some indoor carpet tournaments.

That's the beauty with S&Vers, age plays a far smaller part than claymugs.

Brain is more important than legs.

Dilettante
04-22-2011, 05:29 AM
Almugro in the top 10? It can only mean one thing...

That you hate Spaniards?

We didn't need Almagro for that.

aphex
04-22-2011, 05:33 AM
That you hate Spaniards?

We didn't need Almagro for that.

Actually, I've been to Spain 7-8 times.
Your statement could not be further from the truth.

aphex
04-22-2011, 05:33 AM
¿Indoor carpet surfaces? Those surfaces in that Llodra has a record of 10 victories and 17 defeats. Are your sure, dude? :-?

You have a link?

Gemini
04-22-2011, 05:40 AM
I think they should add a grass tournament or two right after the early hardcourt season before transitioning to clay.

Blade0324
04-22-2011, 05:45 AM
I'm actually in somewhat disagreement here. I really don't like Almagro at all but I would not want to see any grass, carpet or fast HC surfaces added. I much prefer a slower surface that encourages longer point to grind it out from the baseline.

Telepatic
04-22-2011, 05:46 AM
I find Monfils even worse, Mugro can at least play on clay.

single_handed_champion
04-22-2011, 05:47 AM
You have a link?

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Michael-Llodra.aspx?t=mr

He does have barely greater than 50% career wins in indoor matches. Frankly, a very unimpressive record he has. He does not deserve to be a top-10er with a sub-0.5 career winning rate and barely above on his best surface.

Buckethead
04-22-2011, 05:48 AM
If Llodra is really so talented, how come he lost twice in a row to a rookie Raonic (even being bageled on clay :) )?
Because Raonic is even more talented.
Llodra is more talented than Almagro, but Almagro is still a good player on clay, because of the pace he has, but unfortunate to him He is too slow for HC.
Llodra and Stepanek are the best serve&volley players in the ATP.

DjokerIsTheBest
04-22-2011, 05:49 AM
If Sampras is so talented, how come he lost to rookie Federer in Wimbledon?

hahahhaa, pwnedddddddddddd ! :)

Dilettante
04-22-2011, 05:49 AM
Actually, I've been to Spain 7-8 times.
Your statement could not be further from the truth.

My statement is based on what you usually write here on the forums. Your travels are not my concern and have nothing to do with it, my idea is still the same.

10ACE
04-22-2011, 05:50 AM
If Sampras is so talented, how come he lost to rookie Federer in Wimbledon?

Oh wow you hold Raonic in high esteem huh? Almagro is a good player watched him play Querrey at the USopen- he sort of lost focus with the fans rallying Querrey- and he lost. More grass would be interesting Its just a tough surface for many to maintain. Carpet would be a good call- seems like Germany and Europe tournaments only though.

Almagro does follow the surface heading right to Mexico or doughs Erica after USA hard- but if he can do it other can do it too and he does have to win in order to have his ranking.

cypher
04-22-2011, 05:51 AM
It will hopefully be a short stay, don't worry Mugbistard.

aphex
04-22-2011, 05:54 AM
Oh wow you hold Raonic in high esteem huh? Almagro is a good player watched him play Querrey at the USopen- he sort of lost focus with the fans rallying Querrey- and he lost. More grass would be interesting Its just a tough surface for many to maintain. Carpet would be a good call- seems like Germany and Europe tournaments only though.

Almagro does follow the surface heading right to Mexico or doughs Erica after USA hard- but if he can do it other can do it too and he does have to win in order to have his ranking.

Not really...but just because Becker won W @18yo in 85, it doesnt mean everyone else was useless.
I was just explaining how his logic was wrong...

ananda
04-22-2011, 05:54 AM
Dunno 'bout you fellers, but I like Magro's backhand. Stands up quite well, and he can hit some lasers with that stroke.
What's more, nice to see another one-hander in the top ten !

So what's the beef with the lad ? Is it that he's considered to be a "choker", or that he can't beat that kid with the 499 streak.

YodaKnowsBest
04-22-2011, 05:54 AM
I agree, they should cut the clay season in half and replace it with hardcourts.

aphex
04-22-2011, 05:55 AM
My statement is based on what you usually write here on the forums. Your travels are not my concern and have nothing to do with it, my idea is still the same.

Your opinion is not of my concern.

aphex
04-22-2011, 05:56 AM
I agree, they should cut the clay season in half and replace it with hardcourts.

lol...........

DjokerIsTheBest
04-22-2011, 05:57 AM
I agree, they should cut the clay season in half and replace it with hardcourts.

Oh wise one, will Nole win the FO?

Bartelby
04-22-2011, 05:58 AM
So two months on clay in europe is too much, well without european clay tennis would be a rump sport.

YodaKnowsBest
04-22-2011, 06:00 AM
Oh wise one, will Nole win the FO?

That I do not know... but I'm sure Nadal won't be the one.

aphex
04-22-2011, 06:02 AM
That I do not know... but I'm sure Nadal won't be the one.

Soderking?

Gemini
04-22-2011, 06:03 AM
I'm actually in somewhat disagreement here. I really don't like Almagro at all but I would not want to see any grass, carpet or fast HC surfaces added. I much prefer a slower surface that encourages longer point to grind it out from the baseline.

I enjoy longer grinding points as well, but I'm thinking in terms of balance. The hardcourt season is TOO long. Even when they go indoors, it's still primarily hardcourts that they're playing on.

By adding another grasscourt tournament or two, this would hopefully give those players that thrive on that surface a little more leverage going into the claycourt season. It would also break up the monotony and predictability of first half of the season.

Bartelby
04-22-2011, 06:07 AM
3 months hard
2 months clay
1 month grass

6 months basically hard

The first part of the season is well-balanced, the second is not.

aphex
04-22-2011, 06:08 AM
I enjoy longer grinding points as well, but I'm thinking in terms of balance. The hardcourt season is TOO long. Even when they go indoors, it's still primarily hardcourts that they're playing on.

By adding another grasscourt tournament or two, this would hopefully give those players that thrive on that surface a little more leverage going into the claycourt season. It would also break up the monotony and predictability of first half of the season.

Yes! Something that rewards flat hitting, slicing and a good net game!

(Btw, I'm the biggest clay mug myself...)

aphex
04-22-2011, 06:09 AM
3 months hard
2 months clay
1 month grass

6 months basically hard

The first part of the season is well-balanced, the second is not.

Should be:

4 months hard
3 months clay
2 months grass
2 months indoor (carpet/wood etc...)
1 month rest

cucio
04-22-2011, 06:14 AM
I don't have anything specific against Almagro. Kudos to the guy, and I hope he can build up confidence and start to perform better. But when a player as mediocre and inconsistent as him makes the top 10, there is something wrong with the rest of the Tour.

See his results in MS and GS. Sorry, but this doesn't speak "solid top 10" to me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicol%C3%A1s_Almagro#Performance_timeline

Bartelby
04-22-2011, 06:16 AM
3 months hard
2 months clay
1 month grass

2 months hard

seems immovable and australia's not going back to grass, but ...

Sept/Oct: grass in southern hemisphere, indoor in euorpe, clay in south america, hard in the orient

November: hardcourt in Paris and London

DjokerIsTheBest
04-22-2011, 06:23 AM
That I do not know... but I'm sure Nadal won't be the one.

So let it be written. So let it be done.

Cassius Clay
04-22-2011, 06:39 AM
It means he is the player that has earned the most points except for 9 players.

Nextman916
04-22-2011, 06:42 AM
I feel that currently we have a rather weak field outside the top 4, its just the stellar performance of the top 4 that makes everyone overlook that.

I guess this reaffirms that up a bit.

Gemini
04-22-2011, 06:46 AM
3 months hard
2 months clay
1 month grass

6 months basically hard

The first part of the season is well-balanced, the second is not.

Actually...the 6 month period you mention as hard has a number of clay tournaments in it. There's a precedent of many of the Europeans/So. Americans going back to the dirt right after Wimbledon.

Since Wimbledon isn't willing to move its dates far enough back in the calendar to accommodate more grass play before the big show, the easiest alternative I can see is to throw in a couple of grass events somewhere in the stretch right after Miami.

shadows
04-22-2011, 06:53 AM
Almagro is a better player to have in the top 10 than Fish of Monfils.

He's always had the talent to be up and around there, if he keeps his head on straight he could even stay near the top 8 for a while.

But yeah, the tour has kind of fallen apart a bit in the last year or two.

single_handed_champion
04-22-2011, 06:58 AM
Not really...but just because Becker won W @18yo in 85, it doesnt mean everyone else was useless.
I was just explaining how his logic was wrong...

... except I never admitted I thought Sampras was talented. Sorry bro, cannot let you claim a tiny (and fraudulent) victory in order to gloss over the collapse of your original point.

Bartelby
04-22-2011, 06:59 AM
There are a few clay courts sprinkled throughout the first half year, but the European clay season is not just clay and European grass in April? Just won't work. And Monte Carlo is the perfect beginning to European clay.



Actually...the 6 month period you mention as hard has a number of clay tournaments in it. There's a precedent of many of the Europeans/So. Americans going back to the dirt right after Wimbledon.

Since Wimbledon isn't willing to move its dates far enough back in the calendar to accommodate more grass play before the big show, the easiest alternative I can see is to throw in a couple of grass events somewhere in the stretch right after Miami.

All-rounder
04-22-2011, 07:00 AM
Soderking?
He still exists?? After that abysmal showing at last years final he'd be lucky to make the QF's.

mellowyellow
04-22-2011, 07:00 AM
Dunno 'bout you fellers, but I like Magro's backhand. Stands up quite well, and he can hit some lasers with that stroke.
What's more, nice to see another one-hander in the top ten !

So what's the beef with the lad ? Is it that he's considered to be a "choker", or that he can't beat that kid with the 499 streak.

I agree about that backhand, and we would see more 1 handers if their were a few more fast tourneys. I would say that Llodra's record on indoor/carpet surface is not really a reliable statistic because of the time they have been played in. Their is no lead in to fast tourneys and the guys that play them are all good on that surface. You don't really see grinders in those tourneys at all anymore so you are playing the best of the best on that surface. I think if their was a real indoor carpet series that he would have flourished a bit more than his current record would indicate. He is kind of cought in "no mans land" for play style because of this fact.

aphex
04-22-2011, 07:14 AM
... except I never admitted I thought Sampras was talented. Sorry bro, cannot let you claim a tiny (and fraudulent) victory in order to gloss over the collapse of your original point.

Clearly you're clueless.

Your opinion as to the merit of my position is utterly useless.

rainingaces
04-22-2011, 07:23 AM
5 stars great thread.

Almagro wins nothing but dirt ball tourniments where the 2nd best player is Dolgopodov lol. More grass, less dirt.

Gemini
04-22-2011, 07:26 AM
There are a few clay courts sprinkled throughout the first half year, but the European clay season is not just clay and European grass in April? Just won't work. And Monte Carlo is the perfect beginning to European clay.

Never said anything about the European clay season, but talking about clay in general. At one point, there was probably more clay tournaments worldwide than hard. I'm pretty sure there's a shift towards hard but I'd bet there are still more clay tournaments at present.

But you can bring in grass (indoors) for a tournament. It doesn't always have to be grown on-site just to have a tournament. It's about the change of surface. Monte Carlo may be the perfect beginning to the European clay..but there's a lot of hard and clay tourneys in general. I want the random grass tournament to break up the monotony.

Heracles
04-22-2011, 08:07 AM
The number of clays tournament has already been diminished too much.

Seriously there are way too much hardcourts. Every clay tournament has to be protected and some others have to be created.

By the way, Almagro is much better than LLodra.

Devilito
04-22-2011, 08:13 AM
Replace the entire Clay season with indoor carpet. Tear down Roland Garros and put up some low cost housing.

DRII
04-22-2011, 09:17 AM
I don't have much of a problem with Almagro (except for his obvious Napoleon complex, who he uncanningly resembles)!

He definitely has Beautiful back-hand!

However, there should be more grass tournaments. Using today's grass - with its firmer bounce and more extended rallies...

sureshs
04-22-2011, 09:37 AM
Dunno 'bout you fellers, but I like Magro's backhand. Stands up quite well, and he can hit some lasers with that stroke.
What's more, nice to see another one-hander in the top ten !

So what's the beef with the lad ? Is it that he's considered to be a "choker", or that he can't beat that kid with the 499 streak.

Almagro's BH is beautiful, and he can handle high balls as well.

DjokerIsTheBest
04-22-2011, 09:41 AM
After reading the various characters on this forum, it seems to me that Suresh actually loves Roger a lot. His comments towards Roger come from a genuine desire to see Roger become the true GOAT.

DownTheLine
04-22-2011, 09:45 AM
They need to take out one of the 1000 master series from clay and add it to grass.

ananda
04-22-2011, 09:57 AM
I don't know how this thread has become one of grass events, and I don't care going back ... from those of you who don't think Almag belongs in the top 10, I'd like to know your Top 10.
Not challenging, just asking -- I've got a couple names in my head, but sadly none of them are consistent, either.

Devilito
04-22-2011, 09:58 AM
I don't know how this thread has become one of grass events, and I don't care going back ... from those of you who don't think Almag belongs in the top 10, I'd like to know your Top 10.
Not challenging, just asking -- I've got a couple names in my head, but sadly none of them are consistent, either.

only real conclusion = weak era

ananda
04-22-2011, 10:00 AM
only real conclusion = weak era
wait wait, are you saying no one outside the top 4 or 5 (or whatever) belong in the top 10. They should jump to 11 after Murray (or before ;) ).

Devilito
04-22-2011, 10:06 AM
wait wait, are you saying no one outside the top 4 or 5 (or whatever) belong in the top 10. They should jump to 11 after Murray (or before ;) ).

that's exactly what i'm saying :p

aphex
04-22-2011, 10:08 AM
wait wait, are you saying no one outside the top 4 or 5 (or whatever) belong in the top 10. They should jump to 11 after Murray (or before ;) ).

Ernie Glooby is the real no.1 anyway...

Dgpsx7
04-22-2011, 10:21 AM
I'm happy for almagro. He always had skills he just needed to close better. Maybe now that he is in the top 10 he will get more confidence.

ananda
04-22-2011, 10:22 AM
Look fellers, if Roger Federer is #3 then this has to be the strongest era ever.

Top 3 guys are multiple slam winners. #4 is a future multiple slam winner. #13 and #77 are also slam winners. See, 73 slamless guys are ahead of a slam winner. Phew! This is a super-strong era.

ananda
04-22-2011, 10:29 AM
I'm happy for almagro. He always had skills he just needed to close better. Maybe now that he is in the top 10 he will get more confidence.
I am not sure I will take too much from that match with Niko. Especially after being down 2-5 in the first. Perhaps he's lucky he was facing Denko. Let's see how long he holds onto this position....

Omega_7000
04-22-2011, 10:43 AM
The number of clays tournament has already been diminished too much.

Seriously there are way too much hardcourts. Every clay tournament has to be protected and some others have to be created.

By the way, Almagro is much better than LLodra.

They need to increase the number of grass tournaments & keep a balance between fast & slow courts. Don't tailor every surface to behave exactly the same.

aphex
04-22-2011, 10:47 AM
The number of clays tournament has already been diminished too much.

Seriously there are way too much hardcourts. Every clay tournament has to be protected and some others have to be created.

By the way, Almagro is much better than LLodra.

If both were born 20 years earlier, Llodra would be in the top 20 and Mugro would barely exist in the top 80-100.

So, no, Mugro is not better, he's just lucky.

NamRanger
04-22-2011, 10:50 AM
I'm actually in somewhat disagreement here. I really don't like Almagro at all but I would not want to see any grass, carpet or fast HC surfaces added. I much prefer a slower surface that encourages longer point to grind it out from the baseline.



Yes we know, you love Nadal and therefore only want surfaces that benefit him obviously.



The entire calendar year basically favors Nadal except indoors, which is a short period of the year which most people tank anyways (or skip).

Gemini
04-22-2011, 10:55 AM
If both were born 20 years earlier, Llodra would be in the top 20 and Mugro would barely exist in the top 80-100.

So, no, Mugro is not better, he's just lucky.

I think Llodra's style of play actually takes a much longer time to develop and harness as a weapon than Almagro's.

We all start off as baseliners (Almagros) but very few of us evolve with any success into successful net-rushers/s&v (Llodras). It's just a much more difficult style of play to successful with in today's game.

aphex
04-22-2011, 11:00 AM
I think Llodra's style of play actually takes a much longer time to develop and harness as a weapon than Almagro's.

We all start off as baseliners (Almagros) but very few of us evolve with any success into successful net-rushers/s&v (Llodras). It's just a much more difficult style of play to successful with in today's game.

That's why S&Vers usuallu peak later...

It requires more thinking...

Gemini
04-22-2011, 11:03 AM
That's why S&Vers usuallu peak later...

It requires more thinking...

And to be honest...more athleticism. Rafter is a great example.

Personally, as a player, when I'm trying to get myself into the best possible match condition I practice serve and volley. I have to be more explosive and deliberate in my actions. If my serve and volley is on, the rest of my game falls in line.

Almagro's results speak for themselves so he's deserving of his position in the rankings, but Llodra's game is a spectacle in itself.

bolo
04-22-2011, 11:19 AM
Llodra's problem is that he has an inconsistent serve and has below average groundies. Notice he doesn't even do well at wimbledon, where the serve is still the premier shot. Almugro is just a chubbier guy with a much bigger game. :)

Omega_7000
04-22-2011, 11:24 AM
Llodra's problem is that he has an inconsistent serve and has below average groundies. Notice he doesn't even do well at wimbledon, where the serve is still the premier shot. Almugro is just a chubbier guy with a much bigger game. :)

Not anymore...

bolo
04-22-2011, 11:54 AM
Not anymore...

The stats say that even now Wimbledon is the GS tournament where the largest % of points won are through aces, there are the largest % of tie break sets, most games per set and the fewest number of points per game. All the stats. say this is where the serve is still the most powerful and probably because of that, where the game is still played the fastest. Whether other tournaments have closed the gap/caught up to wimbledon over time is another question, but a lot of the stats are still with wimbledon in terms of the serve and speed of the game.

At wimbledon, llodra also has a double whammy, his serve is too inconsistent and his weak back court game means it's even harder for him to break on grass. He's a fun player but almugro has more goods.

Hitman
04-22-2011, 12:18 PM
The stats say that even now Wimbledon is the GS tournament where the largest % of points won are through aces, there are the largest % of tie break sets, most games per set and the fewest number of points per game. All the stats. say this is where the serve is still the most powerful and probably because of that, where the game is still played the fastest. Whether other tournaments have closed the gap/caught up to wimbledon over time is another question, but a lot of the stats are still with wimbledon in terms of the serve and speed of the game.

At wimbledon, llodra also has a double whammy, his serve is too inconsistent and his weak back court game means it's even harder for him to break on grass. He's a fun player but almugro has more goods.

Hey bolo! :)

While I agree with stats on the serve. Wimby is not the fastest anymore. I go every year to Wimbledon, it is only 40 minutes from my home in London. US Open is faster, I have been there a few times, and noticed how it looked more sped up in comparison to the Wimbledon Championships. Even Queens is faster. When Sampras was winning, trust me, unless you were there, you won't believe how fast and explosive Wimbledon was.

rainingaces
04-22-2011, 12:19 PM
I don't know how this thread has become one of grass events, and I don't care going back ... from those of you who don't think Almag belongs in the top 10, I'd like to know your Top 10.
Not challenging, just asking -- I've got a couple names in my head, but sadly none of them are consistent, either.

Del potro, Raonic and hopefully Wawrinka can restore some more quality to the top 10 by then end of the season.

Hitman
04-22-2011, 12:24 PM
The number of clays tournament has already been diminished too much.

Seriously there are way too much hardcourts. Every clay tournament has to be protected and some others have to be created.

By the way, Almagro is much better than LLodra.

We have the South American Clay Swing, which is four straight events on clay. Then after the IW-Miami double, we have two months straight of clay, including 3 Masters and a Slam. Then we have a month of grass, followed another 3-4 weeks of clay again leading into Canada and the US Open.

Sorry, but there is plenty of clay for those that want to play on it. Anything more is excess.

If anything does need to increase, it is grass, not clay.

Heracles
04-22-2011, 12:26 PM
Hey bolo! :)

While I agree with stats on the serve. Wimby is not the fastest anymore. I go every year to Wimbledon, it is only 40 minutes from my home in London. US Open is faster, I have been there a few times, and noticed how it looked more sped up in comparison to the Wimbledon Championships. Even Queens is faster. When Sampras was winning, trust me, unless you were there, you won't believe how fast and explosive Wimbledon was.

That's wrong.

Wimbledon is still faster than the USO and the number of aces is the proof. There are WAY more aces in Wimbledon than in the USO. It is the definitive proof.

Heracles
04-22-2011, 12:27 PM
We have the South American Clay Swing, which is four straight events on clay. Then after the IW-Miami double, we have two months straight of clay, including 3 Masters and a Slam. Then we have a month of grass, followed another 3-4 weeks of clay again leading into Canada and the US Open.

Sorry, but there is plenty of clay for those that want to play on it. Anything more is excess.

If anything does need to increase, it is grass, not clay.

It is not enough. Before there were more clay events.

Now it's around 80% hardcourts, 15% clay and 5% grass.

Grass and hardcourts are close between themselves than with clay. That's why clay needs more protection.

Hitman
04-22-2011, 12:28 PM
That's wrong.

Wimbledon is still faster than the USO and the number of aces is the proof. There are WAY more aces in Wimbledon than in the USO. It is the definitive proof.

No. Sorry, I will go with what I have seen over the past 20 years with my own eyes on centre court to when Sampras played, and to when Federer played. Aces are not the only things that define how fast a surface is.

bolo
04-22-2011, 12:28 PM
Hey bolo! :)

While I agree with stats on the serve. Wimby is not the fastest anymore. I go every year to Wimbledon, it is only 40 minutes from my home in London. US Open is faster, I have been there a few times, and noticed how it looked more sped up in comparison to the Wimbledon Championships. Even Queens is faster. When Sampras was winning, trust me, unless you were there, you won't believe how fast and explosive Wimbledon was.

I am just talking amongst the slams. All those stats compare wimbledon with the other slams from at least 2000 on. The points per game tells you that wimbledon is still the fastest (due to speed, bad bounces etc.), although US open is not far from wimbledon on this stat., at different points in time.

Heracles
04-22-2011, 12:28 PM
If both were born 20 years earlier, Llodra would be in the top 20 and Mugro would barely exist in the top 80-100.

So, no, Mugro is not better, he's just lucky.

You overrate Llodra and underrate Almagro.

With more clay courts events in the past, Almagro would be even higher.

Heracles
04-22-2011, 12:29 PM
No. Sorry, I will go with what I have seen over the past 20 years with my own eyes on centre court to when Sampras played, and to when Federer played. Aces are not the only things that define how fast a surface is.

Then you will explain to me why there are way more aces on a slower surface? Good chance trying that.

Hitman
04-22-2011, 12:30 PM
It is not enough. Before there were more clay events.

Now it's around 80% hardcourts, 15% clay and 5% grass.

Grass and hardcourts are close between themselves than with clay. That's why clay needs more protection.

Again, I disagree. There is plenty of clay. Roughly four months of clay for those that want to play on it. A clay courter after the AO, can play a lot of clay events leading to the US Open series.

More grass, and more indoor carpet though.

Hitman
04-22-2011, 12:33 PM
I am just talking amongst the slams. All those stats compare wimbledon with the other slams from at least 2000 on. The points per game tells you that wimbledon is still the fastest (due to speed, bad bounces etc.), although US open is not far from wimbledon on this stat., at different points in time.

Stats will never tell the full story, I think we both know that. It is never that clear cut. Wimbledon is still faster than AO and FO. I haven't been to AO, but I have been to FO six times. But, I've seen the play to be faster at the US Open in recent years. It wasn't that way when I saw Rafter beat Sampras in 98. Or even when I saw the classic Sampras-Agassi match.

Heracles
04-22-2011, 12:41 PM
Again, I disagree. There is plenty of clay. Roughly four months of clay for those that want to play on it. A clay courter after the AO, can play a lot of clay events leading to the US Open series.

More grass, and more indoor carpet though.

Clay is the only slow surface. Hardcourt and grass are fast. Clay 's protection is necessary for the diversity of tennis.

BrooklynNY
04-22-2011, 12:41 PM
No. Sorry, I will go with what I have seen over the past 20 years with my own eyes on centre court to when Sampras played, and to when Federer played. Aces are not the only things that define how fast a surface is.

Yeah, I agree. It could also have to do with the fact that players are less sure-footed on the grass, hindering their movement and ability to get to more balls. Or in the event there is a bad bounce on the Wimby grass these days, they aren't as adept at maneuvering on a hard court, or even clay, which are way more common.

Heracles
04-22-2011, 12:42 PM
Stats will never tell the full story, I think we both know that. It is never that clear cut. Wimbledon is still faster than AO and FO. I haven't been to AO, but I have been to FO six times. But, I've seen the play to be faster at the US Open in recent years. It wasn't that way when I saw Rafter beat Sampras in 98. Or even when I saw the classic Sampras-Agassi match.

Your personnal feeling does not convince me more than these stats.

dmt
04-22-2011, 12:43 PM
The wntire calender favours nadal? Comical. So the us open courts are made to favour nadal, arent they? And Nadal is at his best on clay so the whole season doesnt favour him at all.

Hitman
04-22-2011, 12:45 PM
Yeah, I agree. It could also have to do with the fact that players are less sure-footed on the grass, hindering their movement and ability to get to more balls. Or in the event there is a bad bounce on the Wimby grass these days, they aren't as adept at maneuvering on a hard court, or even clay, which are way more common.

You are correct. The movement on grass is very different, it is one of the few places where players get wrong footed a lot. You see players taking advantage of that by going behind their opponent on grass a lot also, purely because of the movement, and less sure-footed players we have on that surface. Even though is slower, the surface is still grass.

Hitman
04-22-2011, 12:47 PM
Your personnal feeling does not convince me more than these stats.

Fine, good for you! :)

Hitman
04-22-2011, 12:49 PM
The wntire calender favours nadal? Comical. So the us open courts are made to favour nadal, arent they? And Nadal is at his best on clay so the whole season doesnt favour him at all.

The whole season does not favor Nadal. The US Open is fast, and goes against his natural game. He has done very well to modify his game to win on fast surfaces.

Hitman
04-22-2011, 12:53 PM
Clay is the only slow surface. Hardcourt and grass are fast. Clay 's protection is necessary for the diversity of tennis.


Just a question for you. Do you define IW as fast?

sureshs
04-22-2011, 12:58 PM
Yes we know, you love Nadal and therefore only want surfaces that benefit him obviously.


Nadal has won all Slams

Li Ching Yuen
04-22-2011, 01:08 PM
Court speeds as of 2009:

http://i51.tinypic.com/155hq55.jpg

Gemini
04-22-2011, 01:22 PM
Clay is the only slow surface. Hardcourt and grass are fast. Clay 's protection is necessary for the diversity of tennis.

Apparently you don't know just how slow a hardcourt can get.

By saying clay is necessary for the diversity of tennis, you make a better argument for more grass tournaments as there simply aren't enough. What better way to diversify than to add to the LEAST represented surface type--grass.

And you made the assertion that hardcourt tournaments are 80%? I'd like to see proof of that. Hardcourts are supposed to be the "equalizing" surface between grass and clay. It's supposed to be a surface that both attacking fast-court players and grinding slow-court players can both perform well on. So maybe that's one of the reasons more hardcourt tournaments are prevalent these days.

But why not sprinkle a grass court tournament somewhere around the prime clay court season (meaning major draw and money tournaments).

Cesc Fabregas
04-22-2011, 01:35 PM
...the itf/atp need to cut down the clay tournaments in half
and replace them with indoor carpet/wood/superfast HC (faster than Paris).

Seriously, what is Almugro doing in the top 10 and the FAR more talented Llodra @ 24???

Tennis has a surface problem!

If Llodra was as good as Almagro then he'd be winning the similar sized hardcourt/indoor events as Almagro has on clay.

Cesc Fabregas
04-22-2011, 01:41 PM
If both were born 20 years earlier, Llodra would be in the top 20 and Mugro would barely exist in the top 80-100.

So, no, Mugro is not better, he's just lucky.

They're were far better S&V's than Llodra 20 years ago so his ranking would be lower. In todays game he offers something different which wins him alot of matches, 20 years ago he'd just be another journeyman S&Ver ranking around the 60's and 70's.

tennis_pro
04-22-2011, 01:47 PM
They're were far better S&V's than Llodra 20 years ago so his ranking would be lower. In todays game he offers something different which wins him alot of matches, 20 years ago he'd just be another journeyman S&Ver ranking around the 60's and 70's.

What a joke. It's a miracle that a serve-and-volleyer is that high in the rankings, if there were more faster surfaces like in the 90's he'd be ranked higher thx to his playing style

CHOcobo
04-22-2011, 01:51 PM
...the itf/atp need to cut down the clay tournaments in half
and replace them with indoor carpet/wood/superfast HC (faster than Paris).

Seriously, what is Almugro doing in the top 10 and the FAR more talented Llodra @ 24???

Tennis has a surface problem!

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g124/ifit/haters_gonna_hate_betty_copy.png

mellowyellow
04-22-2011, 01:57 PM
They're were far better S&V's than Llodra 20 years ago so his ranking would be lower. In todays game he offers something different which wins him alot of matches, 20 years ago he'd just be another journeyman S&Ver ranking around the 60's and 70's.

Keep a real perspective of what he has accomplished in a day where many realize its not feasible to win with pure S&V technique. The lack of tourneys has only helped Llodra's game languish rather than flourish. It is a style that often takes longer to develop, 20 years ago he would have been able to hone his skill and realize his potential from his early/mid 20's, rather than his late 20's heading into his 30's.

Heracles
04-22-2011, 02:06 PM
Just a question for you. Do you define IW as fast?

It is not very fast but it is still fast. It rewards hugely agressivity from the baseline.

Semi-Pro
04-22-2011, 02:30 PM
It is not very fast but it is still fast. It rewards hugely agressivity from the baseline.

This is fail.

bolo
04-22-2011, 03:28 PM
Court speeds as of 2009:

http://i51.tinypic.com/155hq55.jpg

very nice, I see the US open is nowhere to be found here. Where is the US open btw in this ordering?

I also wonder where 2010 wimbledon would rank on a new list.

ananda
04-22-2011, 08:50 PM
Del potro, Raonic and hopefully Wawrinka can restore some more quality to the top 10 by then end of the season.
Stanley is on my list too, but then he fails in consistency which cucio had pointed out.

dmt
04-22-2011, 09:20 PM
if you have to add grass masters, then take out a hardcourt tournament. Seriously people are whining about clay which has 3 masters and yet hardcourts have 6.

Forehand Avenger
04-22-2011, 09:37 PM
Actually, I've been to Spain 7-8 times.
Your statement could not be further from the truth.
You are right. He was just confusing hate with envy. The same way Spaniards must envy all those famous Greek tennis players. Oh, wait... they can't because there is none. :lol:

Hitman
04-23-2011, 03:43 AM
This is fail.


Maybe it is just the way the poster worded it.

Although I do disagree with that post.

cucio
04-23-2011, 06:58 AM
I don't know how this thread has become one of grass events, and I don't care going back ... from those of you who don't think Almag belongs in the top 10, I'd like to know your Top 10.
Not challenging, just asking -- I've got a couple names in my head, but sadly none of them are consistent, either.

Well, my point is that Almagro has never done anything of note. No wins against the top 3, no deep runs in a slam or a MS, other than that solitary SF at Madrid 2010 (where he was playing really well, his match against Söderling was a treat)...

So, the only way for him (or Fish) to have reached that ranking is with the combined help of a good number of way more accomplished players being injured or in a slump in form: Roddick, Del Potro, Tsonga, Davydenko...

PCXL-Fan
04-23-2011, 07:26 AM
Almagro's clay court proficiency may far outshine his performance on other surfaces, but how is that any less legitimate then all the HC wonders built their ranking via HC and who do poorly on other surfaces.

I would like to see more grass as well, but they should take that out of second half hardcourt season.

Nadal has won all Slams

Even Denny's?

PCXL-Fan
04-23-2011, 07:29 AM
Well, my point is that Almagro has never done anything of note. No wins against the top 3, no deep runs in a slam or a MS, other than that solitary SF at Madrid 2010 (where he was playing really well, his match against Söderling was a treat)...

So, the only way for him (or Fish) to have reached that ranking is with the combined help of a good number of way more accomplished players being injured or in a slump in form: Roddick, Del Potro, Tsonga, Davydenko...

Another way of looking at it is if he met half the top 10-20 on clay he'd beat them, but given the season is so heavily sided to hardcourts it kinda skews perception of things. He's a claycourt specialist.

ananda
04-23-2011, 10:01 AM
Well, my point is that Almagro has never done anything of note. No wins against the top 3, no deep runs in a slam or a MS, other than that solitary SF at Madrid 2010 (where he was playing really well, his match against Söderling was a treat)...

So, the only way for him (or Fish) to have reached that ranking is with the combined help of a good number of way more accomplished players being injured or in a slump in form: Roddick, Del Potro, Tsonga, Davydenko...
Darned unlucky guy, not to face Murray or Nadal when in slump / injured :D :D He just needs the right draw! *j teasing*

NadalAgassi
04-23-2011, 10:12 AM
They're were far better S&V's than Llodra 20 years ago so his ranking would be lower. In todays game he offers something different which wins him alot of matches, 20 years ago he'd just be another journeyman S&Ver ranking around the 60's and 70's.

Definitely. In the 90s he would just be a doubles specialist (which is mostly what he is now anyway).

NadalAgassi
04-23-2011, 10:14 AM
Almagro is a better player to have in the top 10 than Fish of Monfils.

He's always had the talent to be up and around there, if he keeps his head on straight he could even stay near the top 8 for a while.

But yeah, the tour has kind of fallen apart a bit in the last year or two.

Monfils has far more potential than Almagro does.