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luishcorreia
05-10-2011, 03:08 AM
I have 2 "identical" Vantage frames.

The full specs are: VTCUSTOM: Vantage Racquet (code 321104), Frame size 100sq", String pattern 16x19, Stiffness 63 RA, Length 27", Weight & Balance 310g / 11.0oz, 325mm / 6pts HL, Handle shape 2 (D), Handle size 4 - 4 1/2".

One is red and the other is black.

But...they play differently. I cant tell what it is...but the red one just seems less manuverable. I tried to find the balance point in a table's edge, and it's exactly in the same spot.

Any ideias?

0d1n
05-10-2011, 04:13 AM
Inertia (swingweight) is different.

bertrevert
05-10-2011, 04:29 AM
Hoop response different?

It's something not really measured. There must be others.

We know from slo-mo film that the hoop is almost this liquid element in a racq. TW power rating charts don't capture this element, stiffness ratings don't either.

Moreover, unless you can unpick the layup, you can never know the mix of fibres and graphite etc in the two frames.

I guess the nice upshot of what you have found is the idea that no two frames, no matter how identical the specs, are ever completely the same, that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Musicians find this out about instruments often too.

origmarm
05-10-2011, 04:37 AM
Inertia (swingweight) is different.

This for me. This is the issue I have with Vantage racquets in that they are "finalised" based on a series of stock frames by positioning weight in the top of the handle. I would assume that they were essentially slightly different layups/batches to begin with and have been adjusted to the correct balance point. The weight essentially may be distributed slightly different in the frames or the layups could be slightly different.

I would call Paul and ask him about it. He's usually very open about this sort of thing

luishcorreia
05-10-2011, 05:35 AM
This for me. This is the issue I have with Vantage racquets in that they are "finalised" based on a series of stock frames by positioning weight in the top of the handle. I would assume that they were essentially slightly different layups/batches to begin with and have been adjusted to the correct balance point. The weight essentially may be distributed slightly different in the frames or the layups could be slightly different.

I would call Paul and ask him about it. He's usually very open about this sort of thing


Thats probably it. I bought these frames via email (and PayPal), talking to Paul, because he had some frames in the UK that he wanted to sell (they moved the business to the US). Probably they were adjusted to the specs...

I'll email Paul.

Thanks a lot.

martin
05-10-2011, 05:43 AM
They feel different because they are different in specs.
Through manufacturing process differences will occur.
The swingweight will be different, the balance point will be different and even the flex can be different than it should be.
I have three vantage rackets with same specs but one has a sw of 314 and the other 326 and one 321. one has a balance point of 32.9, one 33,7 and one, 33,4.
There's even a difference in flex. Strung is one 60, one 59 and one 56.
I corrected the differences through a professional customizer except for the flex as you cannot change that.
Vantage make great rackets but you cannot expect exact specifications then it should be hand made.

luishcorreia
05-10-2011, 06:03 AM
They feel different because they are different in specs.
Through manufacturing process differences will occur.
The swingweight will be different, the balance point will be different and even the flex can be different than it should be.
I have three vantage rackets with same specs but one has a sw of 314 and the other 326 and one 321. one has a balance point of 32.9, one 33,7 and one, 33,4.
There's even a difference in flex. Strung is one 60, one 59 and one 56.
I corrected the differences through a professional customizer except for the flex as you cannot change that.
Vantage make great rackets but you cannot expect exact specifications then it should be hand made.

I realize that..but i'm talking about a huge difference! I always go to the black racquet..it just feels nicer.

I'll try and measure the swing weight.

martin
05-10-2011, 05:50 PM
I just ordered a bc20 but maybe i should have ordered two as it is produced in the same procss. I guess the specs are closer then or am i wrong???

origmarm
05-10-2011, 11:37 PM
I just ordered a bc20 but maybe i should have ordered two as it is produced in the same procss. I guess the specs are closer then or am i wrong???

In the past when I played with Vantage I always ordered in (at least) pairs and had Paul select them out from the same batch. I think it made a difference. I would call and discuss with them as at the time they had pretty small batches, perhaps now they are producing in more volume.

scotus
05-10-2011, 11:43 PM
I corrected the differences through a professional customizer except for the flex as you cannot change that.



What good is a custom-made racquet if one still has to take it to a professional customizer?

scotus
05-10-2011, 11:44 PM
In the past when I played with Vantage I always ordered in (at least) pairs and had Paul select them out from the same batch. I think it made a difference. I would call and discuss with them as at the time they had pretty small batches, perhaps now they are producing in more volume.

Well, then I did well to order a pair of BC20.

scotus
05-10-2011, 11:48 PM
Speaking of the pair of BC20s I ordered, there is 1.8 g of difference between the two (factory-strung).

Low enough, don't you think?

luishcorreia
05-11-2011, 12:33 AM
Yes. Its small.

Last night I calculated the balance point on the 2 racquets, and they are about the same. 33.1 cm from the but cap.

However, I just remminded that the red frame is strung with Red Code, and the black frame is strung with Pro Line II. The strings also have different weights.

I havent weighted the racquets yet (I have no scale at home), but if the weight is the same and the balance point is also the same, then the swing weight must be the same, no?

fgs
05-11-2011, 01:47 AM
not neccessarily. you can have the mass evenly distributed over the entire length of the frame or you can have it distributed to the ends (a polarized racquet). i think sw will be higher on the second version.

pmxgs0
05-11-2011, 01:50 AM
Yes. Its small.

Last night I calculated the balance point on the 2 racquets, and they are about the same. 33.1 cm from the but cap.

However, I just remminded that the red frame is strung with Red Code, and the black frame is strung with Pro Line II. The strings also have different weights.

I havent weighted the racquets yet (I have no scale at home), but if the weight is the same and the balance point is also the same, then the swing weight must be the same, no?

Not necessarily.
Since the two frames come from the the same model, they should have similar swingweights, and Paul will tell you this.
Although the rackets have the same weight and balance point, if the mass is distributed differently, then the swing weights will be different. But this shouldn't happen, since, as I've said before both frames belong to the same model.
If you can find a RDC machine try to measure it to know if swing weight is the reason for the different feel.

TonyB
06-13-2011, 06:15 PM
Everyone keep in mind that as little as 2 grams added to the head of any frame will add 6 units to the swingweight, which is noticeable.

So, if the balance of the as-molded frame were off by only a few grams one way or the other, the swingweight could definitely be 5-10 units higher or lower than another racquet out of the same mold. That's not very much of a weight difference when you're talking about hand-made layups.