Who Eats The Default?

[Cindysphinx]

In our league, a team that defaults a court must pay the court fees of the opponent for that court. Defaulting a singles court costs $34; defaulting a doubles court costs $68. Showing up 15 minutes late is a default.

On my team, I tell my players my "policies" up front -- if you cause a default, you must pay the court fees.

Here's what happened.

I asked Susan to captain a match, as I wasn't playing. About 10 minutes before match time, Susan called me and said she was driving to East End Tennis Facility and wanted to confirm that this was the match location. No, the match was at West End Tennis Facility, I said.

Susan said she had headed toward East End because Peggy, another player in the line-up, had told her East End. Worse, Peggy was sitting in the lobby of East End wondering where everyone was.

I looked at my watch and saw we were about 5 minutes before match time and line-ups had to be exchanged immediately. Peggy was supposed to play No. 2 singles. Susan was supposed to play No. 1 doubles.

I realized that Susan might or might not barely make it to West End, but Peggy had no chance. I called the other players and told them to exchange a line-up with Susan and Peggy at No. 3 doubles, and Susan's partner at No. 2 singles. (We lost the team match 2-3 for those keeping score. Ouch.)

I do not know whether Susan arrived in time, but I know Peggy was late. Opponents took their default, so we owe $68.

Question: Who should pay the $68? If Susan got there 14 minutes late, is she still on the hook because she was captaining and was responsible for being in the right place early enough to troubleshoot and give correct information to Peggy? Or should Peggy eat the whole thing because if Susan got there before 15 minutes after, Susan didn't cause the Court Three default?

[sureshs]

Why did Susan call you after she had headed out? Did she have doubts about Peggy's information? Why did she not check earlier with you if she had doubts?

[Spokewench]

Since Susan was your replacement captain, she should have known where she was going and should have made plenty of time before the match. She should have been there early, since was was the de facto captain. Having said that, I would find out if Susan made it in time for the match. If she did, I would put it to her this way. I would say that I was disappointed that she was not at the match early and at the right place and that since she was not there to help out her teammate and her teammate was late, would they split the cost of the default, each playing half. It only seems fair.

If she actually was late, then both Susan and her teammate should split the cost.

[Cindysphinx]

I was kind of coming at it from a different direction.

I figured that if Peggy had botched this all by herself, we would have defaulted Singles Two. Cost is $34.

Because Susan's arrival was in doubt, that put us at risk of defaulting Doubles One also (cost $68 and a full-on disaster because we would have defaulted two courts because of Peggy's troubles).

It seems that Peggy shouldn't have to pay for more than her own mistake, and that's the cost of the singles. Had Susan been on time, the total default cost would have been $34, not $68.

[Cindysphinx]

Why did Susan call you after she had headed out? Did she have doubts about Peggy's information? Why did she not check earlier with you if she had doubts?

You would have to ask Susan. . . .

[spot]

You would say they both are at fault and charge them each $34. If Peggy feels bad for Susan being late by giving her bad information and wants to pay it all then they can work that out themselves. Players in the end are responsible for getting there on time, its their choice on how they want to verify when and where to be in the correct spot.

[polski]

About 10 minutes before match time, Susan called me and said she was driving to East End Tennis Facility and wanted to confirm that this was the match location. No, the match was at West End Tennis Facility, I said.

Susan said she had headed toward East End because Peggy, another player in the line-up, had told her East End. Worse, Peggy was sitting in the lobby of East End wondering where everyone was.


Both at fault, Susan was in charge & had no clue what was happening. Peggy complicated the situation by providing bad information to Susan. If someone gave Peggy that bad information previously, they should offer to assist with the penalties too.

[ChipNCharge]

Cindy, why don't you attend the matches when you're not in the line-up? As a captain, I think that is part of your responsibility.

[spot]

Cindy, why don't you attend the matches when you're not in the line-up? As a captain, I think that is part of your responsibility.

Seriously? Captains are allowed to have a life out of tennis. Once the job of captain starts paying enough to be a full time job then sure, otherwise its ridiculous to think that captain's have to be there for every single match.

[jonnythan]

Why did Peggy think she should be at East End?

[jht32]

I was kind of coming at it from a different direction.

I figured that if Peggy had botched this all by herself, we would have defaulted Singles Two. Cost is $34.

Because Susan's arrival was in doubt, that put us at risk of defaulting Doubles One also (cost $68 and a full-on disaster because we would have defaulted two courts because of Peggy's troubles).

It seems that Peggy shouldn't have to pay for more than her own mistake, and that's the cost of the singles. Had Susan been on time, the total default cost would have been $34, not $68.

I basically agree with your take on this, but I think no lineup change should have been made until you are definite about Susan making her originally scheduled doubles match or not. In the future, would it be possible to wait till the last second before making the lineup change in your league?

If Peggy could not make it and Susan arrived in plenty of time, then no lineup change would have been needed and Peggy would be out $34. The lineup change was prematurely made due to the concern over Susan's possible lateness.

Susan - if on time and the lineup unchanged (aka, Cindy did not get involved) would have owed $0

Susan - if not on time and the lineup unchanged would have owed $68 (and pissed off her partner)

So, my final tally is.....

Peggy - $34 for defaulting her originally scheduled singles match

Susan should split the difference between her 2 possible outcomes ($0 or $68) and pay $34. That is, when the lineup was changed, instead of Susan possibly paying $0 or $68, Cindy is basically saying, Susan, you pay $34 because there is no way the doubles match is occuring.

[jht32]

I was kind of coming at it from a different direction.

I figured that if Peggy had botched this all by herself, we would have defaulted Singles Two. Cost is $34.

Because Susan's arrival was in doubt, that put us at risk of defaulting Doubles One also (cost $68 and a full-on disaster because we would have defaulted two courts because of Peggy's troubles).

It seems that Peggy shouldn't have to pay for more than her own mistake, and that's the cost of the singles. Had Susan been on time, the total default cost would have been $34, not $68.

I basically agree with your take on this, but I think no lineup change should have been made until you are definite about Susan making her originally scheduled doubles match or not. In the future, would it be possible to wait till the last second before making the lineup change in your league?

If Peggy could not make it and Susan arrived in plenty of time, then no lineup change would have been needed and Peggy would be out $34. The lineup change was prematurely made due to the concern over Susan's possible lateness.

Susan - if on time and the lineup unchanged (aka, Cindy did not get involved) would have owed $0

Susan - if not on time and the lineup unchanged would have owed $68 (and pissed off her partner)

So, my final tally is .....

Peggy - $34 for defaulting her originally scheduled singles match

Susan should split the difference between her 2 possible outcomes ($0 or $68) and pay $34. That is, when the lineup was changed, instead of Susan possibly paying $0 or $68 with the original lineup, Cindy is basically saying, Susan, you pay $34 because there is no way the doubles match is occuring with the new lineup.

[ian2]

Why did Peggy think she should be at East End?
"...that is the question", to cite Shakespeare. Why are the players (not just one but two) not sure where the match is played?

[michael_1265]

You folks up in NOVA sure play expensive tennis.....

[Cindysphinx]

I basically agree with your take on this, but I think no lineup change should have been made until you are definite about Susan making her originally scheduled doubles match or not. In the future, would it be possible to wait till the last second before making the lineup change in your league?

Oh, no. In our league, line-ups have to be exchanged 5 minutes ahead of time. Failure to do so is loss of toss and one game on all five courts. Failure to exchange line-ups by match start time is a five-court default.

I had to do something once I knew of this particular disaster. I had no time to mull the situation. By the time I reached a player on the phone and told her to get a blank piece of paper and write a new line-up, we were already 1-2 minutes late with the exchange. We were fortunate the opposing captain was not a stickler.


If Peggy could not make it and Susan arrived in plenty of time, then no lineup change would have been needed and Peggy would be out $34. The lineup change was prematurely made due to the concern over Susan's possible lateness.

No, the line-up change wasn't premature; it was necessary. It saved the day. Had I not intervened, the six players who were at the correct location might have either done nothing (5-court default) or exchanged the original line-up (so we would likely have defaulted two courts).

As for why Susan and Peggy got so confused . . .

People get confused. People screw up. Our matches can have many different start times, can be at many different locations. Players are on multiple teams. It happens.

My method for captaining is I send a match reminder two days before the match. Each player must reply to confirm. The match info is in the reminder. I will often add a sentence or two specifically designed to give players a heads up if there is anything unusual.

In this case, I wrote in the match reminder something like: "Be careful because the traffic on [street where West End is located] is really busy on Saturdays. Whatever you do, don't cut it close!" I had hoped that mentioning the street congestion would help the information stick.

And no, I will not be attending matches in which I do not play. I have a life. I designate teammates who know how to captain to captain for me when I am not playing, and I have no plans to change that.

[Cindysphinx]

so if you know you are right about everything you said and did, why are you asking anyone's opinion? Apparently you have all the answers and you just need us to love you.

I am sure that everything I did was correct and I don't owe any money for this debacle. I explained more about how it all happened so folks can understand who's responsible for what part of the problem.

I am wondering what the fair resolution is vis a vis Peggy and Susan, hence the title of the thread.

[JoelDali]

so if you know you are right about everything you said and did, why are you asking anyone's opinion? Apparently you have all the answers and you just need us to love you.

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/39/2007/08/medium_myster02.jpg

[jonnythan]

It seems that Peggy was the source of the screwup. In reality, Peggy and Susan should each pay their original share... but Peggy should step up and offer to pay Susan's half because she's the one that messed up.

This is of course assuming it was all Peggy's fault. That's why I asked about why Peggy ended up at the wrong area. If someone else gave her poor info, that changes things.

[sureshs]

I think Cindy should pay the entire amount as she was supposed to be a leader and the "buck" stops with her (pun intended).

Leaders need to be held accountable.

[ChipNCharge]

I designate teammates who know how to captain for me when I am not playing

Apparently not.

[Cindysphinx]

I think Cindy should pay the entire amount as she was supposed to be a leader and the "buck" stops with her (pun intended).

Leaders need to be held accountable.

Heh, heh.

That's why I mentioned in the OP about the team "policies." I had you in mind, sureshs! :)

[Cindysphinx]

Apparently not.

Boy, you ain't just whistlin' Dixie!

Like I said, anyone can make a mistake. Susan made a mistake. It happens.

Over the years, however, I've concluded that it is really important to think through who you pick as acting captain. Match administration matters a lot around here. I've heard of acting (or novice) captains screwing up everything from default times to timed match procedures to team match tiebreak procedures. Just weeks ago an acting captain for our opponents turned in a line-up that had the same person designated to play singles and doubles (!).

Those sorts of errors can turn a team win into a team loss.

[sureshs]

Heh, heh.

That's why I mentioned in the OP about the team "policies." I had you in mind, sureshs! :)

You will make a very good CEO. Claim credit when the company does well, and blame the "macro and micro economic climate" when it doesn't, and collect fat bonuses in both cases.

[Mike Hodge]

I say Susan. As acting captain, it's her job to know where the match is, etc.

[Cindysphinx]

You will make a very good CEO. Claim credit when the company does well, and blame the "macro and micro economic climate" when it doesn't, and collect fat bonuses in both cases.

In college, I earned a degree in CYA. :)

Seriously, I state the team policies on such matters up front. And the team policy -- clearly stated in English before players register -- is if you cause a default, you eat it. If a player is not OK with that, they had probably better join a different team.

It's interesting how some folks will try to wriggle off the hook.

Another captain told me a story of a default on her team. She sent an email establishing the line-ups a few weeks before the match. She sent an email reminder a day or two before the match. The player in question did not reply to the reminder, and the captain did not follow up.

It seems that the player had received both emails, but had simply forgotten about the match and gone skiing instead. This explains why she did not answer her phone as the team was trying to reach her.

She refused to pay for the default because she said the captain was at fault for not following up on the match reminder diligently enough.

[Mike Hodge]

In college, I earned a degree in CYA. :)

Seriously, I state the team policies on such matters up front. And the team policy -- clearly stated in English before players register -- is if you cause a default, you eat it. If a player is not OK with that, they had probably better join a different team.

It's interesting how some folks will try to wriggle off the hook.

Another captain told me a story of a default on her team. She sent an email establishing the line-ups a few weeks before the match. She sent an email reminder a day or two before the match. The player in question did not reply to the reminder, and the captain did not follow up.

It seems that the player had received both emails, but had simply forgotten about the match and gone skiing instead. This explains why she did not answer her phone as the team was trying to reach her.

She refused to pay for the default because she said the captain was at fault for not following up on the match reminder diligently enough.

Unbelievable ---- although after being a captain this season, I believe it. Sometimes I feel like a babysitter.

[Cindysphinx]

Unbelievable ---- although after being a captain this season, I believe it. Sometimes I feel like a babysitter.

Yeah, you know . . .

After this debacle, I received some suggestions about things we can do to make sure we don't have such a thing happen again.

One teammate suggested I start texting everyone on match day as a reminder in addition to the original reminder.

Another teammate suggested that we start having an alternate come to each match in case someone doesn't show.

Another teammate suggested that I give players a ride to matches to make sure they don't get confused.

My answer is no.

We are all adults here. Adults should take obvious precautions against becoming confused -- like printing out the match reminder and looking at it before pulling out of their driveway. Or consulting their smartphone that has the match reminder right on it. Or printing out the season schedule and putting it in the glove box. Or asking at the front desk upon arrival whether the Sphinx team is scheduled. If people are going to not make the effort, layers of reminders will not change that.

Also, every layer of work that is layered onto me increases the chance I will screw up and give out bad information. I want to give the information once, being careful to get it right. I also think the more communication you load onto people, the more they start to ignore it.

Bottom line: Adults should plan on arriving at a match 30 minutes ahead of time. If this is done, then players have 45 minutes before they are defaulted. They have enough time to deal with traffic, and if they get to West Side and realize the match is at East Side, they can high tail it across town.

Yes, not having an alternate leaves us vulnerable to freak problems, like someone having a car accident or forgetting the match entirely. But darn it, we have 18 matches over a 12-week season. Gas is expensive. People have families and husbands who get a little resentful that moms/wives are being asked to drive across town just in case someone else has a brain cramp. I have some players who told me that if alternates must travel to the match, they will refuse to be alternates.

Boy. I remember the time I had to be an alternate on a team where alternates had to show up for the match. I drove 45 minutes each way, plus there was the 30 minutes of cooling my heels before the match and the 15 minutes while my teammate warmed up and I had to stay in case someone was injured in warmup. Total time out of my life to be an alternate: 2 hours, 15 minutes, and I didn't hit a single tennis ball.

[Mike Hodge]

Yeah, you know . . .

After this debacle, I received some suggestions about things we can do to make sure we don't have such a thing happen again.

One teammate suggested I start texting everyone on match day as a reminder in addition to the original reminder.

Another teammate suggested that we start having an alternate come to each match in case someone doesn't show.

Another teammate suggested that I give players a ride to matches to make sure they don't get confused.

My answer is no.

We are all adults here. Adults should take obvious precautions against becoming confused -- like printing out the match reminder and looking at it before pulling out of their driveway. Or consulting their smartphone that has the match reminder right on it. Or printing out the season schedule and putting it in the glove box. Or asking at the front desk upon arrival whether the Sphinx team is scheduled. If people are going to not make the effort, layers of reminders will not change that.

Also, every layer of work that is layered onto me increases the chance I will screw up and give out bad information. I want to give the information once, being careful to get it right. I also think the more communication you load onto people, the more they start to ignore it.

Bottom line: Adults should plan on arriving at a match 30 minutes ahead of time. If this is done, then players have 45 minutes before they are defaulted. They have enough time to deal with traffic, and if they get to West Side and realize the match is at East Side, they can high tail it across town.

Yes, not having an alternate leaves us vulnerable to freak problems, like someone having a car accident or forgetting the match entirely. But darn it, we have 18 matches over a 12-week season. Gas is expensive. People have families and husbands who get a little resentful that moms/wives are being asked to drive across town just in case someone else has a brain cramp. I have some players who told me that if alternates must travel to the match, they will refuse to be alternates.

Boy. I remember the time I had to be an alternate on a team where alternates had to show up for the match. I drove 45 minutes each way, plus there was the 30 minutes of cooling my heels before the match and the 15 minutes while my teammate warmed up and I had to stay in case someone was injured in warmup. Total time out of my life to be an alternate: 2 hours, 15 minutes, and I didn't hit a single tennis ball.

Moral of the story: Some people, no matter what, will do anything to avoid commitment, competition or accountability.

[bcart1991]

Sweet flippin' Moses.

Print out x copies of the schedule and give them out at the first match/practice/meeting. Unreal.

Get on Tennispoint, it's quite good for managing teams too (if you're not already).

[dizzlmcwizzl]

http://www.marcofolio.net/images/stories/fun/imagedump/demotivational_posters/teamwork.jpg

[jht32]

No, the line-up change wasn't premature; it was necessary. It saved the day. Had I not intervened, the six players who were at the correct location might have either done nothing (5-court default) or exchanged the original line-up (so we would likely have defaulted two courts).

Saved the day! Good heavens! None of your six team members would have known how to handle the situation? What kind of dimwits are on your team? Okay, I take that back. These are the same dimwits who can't show up at the right location for a tennis match.

Seriously, it's not rocket science. If I were one of the six players on your team, I would have simply said to the other captain. "We apologize for our dimwittedness, as our savior is not with us today. But if you want our lineup now, we will have 2 singles and 2 doubles. If you want to wait 5 minutes and our seventh dimwit shows up, we can have 1 singles and 3 doubles. That way, more of your players can play. We feel bad about your team showing up and not everyone getting to play. Whatever decision you make, our dimwitted team will graciously accept."

[Cindysphinx]

Saved the day! Good heavens! None of your six team members would have known how to handle the situation? What kind of dimwits are on your team? Okay, I take that back. These are the same dimwits who can't show up at the right location for a tennis match.

Seriously, it's not rocket science. If I were one of the six players on your team, I would have simply said to the other captain. "We apologize for our dimwittedness, as our savior is not with us today. But if you want our lineup now, we will have 2 singles and 2 doubles. If you want to wait 5 minutes and our seventh dimwit shows up, we can have 1 singles and 3 doubles. That way, more of your players can play. We feel bad about your team showing up and not everyone getting to play. Whatever decision you make, our dimwitted team will graciously accept."

Would the six team members have known what to do? I dunno. Not one of them called me to find out where the acting captain was ten minutes before match time. They were warming up, assuming they had done their jobs. But hey, I won't call them dimwits. They showed up at the right time and the right place, ready to play. Mission accomplished.

What would have happened if someone had done what you said? Well, remember that the ladies who were standing there didn't have much information. They didn't know when player number seven was going to show (neither did I, with the traffic). She could have been in the bathroom, for all they knew. Maybe opposing captain would be nice if they had said what you suggest. Or maybe she would insist on penalties/defaults.

Had the tables been turned, I would not have been interested in the solution you suggest (letting the other team decide what to do). I would have said, "Look, it's time to exchange line-ups. We're here. I'm ready. Let's exchange." If you had a specific problem, I'd be happy to be flexible. Like if you had two players sprinting toward the facility, I'd be happy to let the first one to arrive play even if her name wasn't on the scorecard. But that's about it.

I think it would have been captaining malpractice for me not to come up with a decent solution, given that I was the only one who had all of the pertinent facts (how late each player was likely to be, who is good at singles, what the rules are, who partners well with whom).

As for the suggestion that I give everyone a copy of the schedule at the beginning of the season . . .

No.

These women are adults, and every one of them has heard of Tennislink. If they wish to know the schedule, they can look it up. In addition, our entire season schedule is on our team google spreadsheet, which every one of them uses to indicate their availability. I am not about to start spoonfeeding people information that they have at their fingertips.

Dang. Do the rest of you captains do all of this hand-holding?

[spot]

jht32- did you catch the part where the acting captain was one of the people who was running late? Cindy had more information than the people who were at the court- I don't see what else she coudl have done other than solve it as best as she could. Maybe some leagues are more flexible about exchanging lineups but with the strict time limits of Cindy's league I don't really see how she had a choice.

[spot]

As far as the handholding- We use tennispoint so they click a link in their email to confirm they know they are in the lineup and thats it. We play in an adult league and we expect people to act like literate adults. Until the job of captain pays enough to be a full time job thats where the responsibility ends.

[Fuji]

Just a little note on this, I love being a spare player on teams like this. I don't mind driving around town to watch some people play tennis. I find it really fun! :)

It would be nice to find a "not-so-good" player for your team that can play alternate or someone who has a lot of free time on their hands to help out your team. I know it's rare, but someone like that could really help you out!

As for who should eat it, the player who gave bad information should. Shoot the messenger in this case! In other sports where we've had mix ups like this, the person who dropped the ball had to pay half the fee and the team as a whole covered the other half. It really gets people to learn quick when they are responsible for relaying important information. :)

-Fuji

[LawnChairGeneral]

Another teammate suggested that we start having an alternate come to each match in case someone doesn't show.

Yes, not having an alternate leaves us vulnerable to freak problems, like someone having a car accident or forgetting the match entirely. But darn it, we have 18 matches over a 12-week season. Gas is expensive. People have families and husbands who get a little resentful that moms/wives are being asked to drive across town just in case someone else has a brain cramp. I have some players who told me that if alternates must travel to the match, they will refuse to be alternates.

Boy. I remember the time I had to be an alternate on a team where alternates had to show up for the match. I drove 45 minutes each way, plus there was the 30 minutes of cooling my heels before the match and the 15 minutes while my teammate warmed up and I had to stay in case someone was injured in warmup. Total time out of my life to be an alternate: 2 hours, 15 minutes, and I didn't hit a single tennis ball.

45 mins each way is a bit unreasonable - surely this was an isolated incident? If this is the norm, then I question the league coordinator and why teams are spread so far apart. Split up the divisions if necessary.

But it also sounds like some people take the stance that if there is personal benefit (i.e. to play), then actually showing up to a match has merit. But if there is no personal benefit (i.e. not playing), then actually travelling to/from and showing up to a match is an inconvenience and waste of time. ???

I think people join a team to be a part of the "team". If they just want to play tennis on their own, then I recommend that they join a ladder.

I understand that people have lives, but during a league season most people schedule this particular day exclusively for tennis. Their friends, work, and family know about this committment, especially if they have been playing in the league on a regular basis. This day/night of the week is for tennis and if an individual has no prior engagement, then it shouldn't matter if they are playing tennis or watching tennis (as the alternate). Is this really too much to ask?

I use alternates for reasons previously discussed (wrong location, traffic, last second work deadline, etc.). I ask that everyone on the roster be an alternate at least once - fair to all. Maybe this doesn't work for all roster sizes, but I think it typically does. If a player has not previously told me that they are unavailable, then they are available to play. The alternate is encouraged to heckle/support and bring some beers to share. This usually encourages other team members to show up, have fun on the sidelines, and support the team.

[jht32]

jht32- did you catch the part where the acting captain was one of the people who was running late? Cindy had more information than the people who were at the court- I don't see what else she coudl have done other than solve it as best as she could. Maybe some leagues are more flexible about exchanging lineups but with the strict time limits of Cindy's league I don't really see how she had a choice.

Yes, I was aware that the acting captain was running late. I'm just saying that if I was one of the players and the my captain or acting captain or backup to acting captain or the backup to the backup was running late, I would have been able to deal with the situation. I wouldn't even have to be a rocket scientist to figure out some solution.

Cindy did a good job. I think her team members would have been able to do a good job too.

[Cindysphinx]

LawnChair,

Our league does not have a set night for matches. They can be at weeknights or weekends. Our league is a county league, and the county is large. Many facilities do not have viewing areas so it is not possible to cheer.

Some teams do require alternates to attend matches. I have only been on one such team, which was the episode I described.

Traffic here can be just awful. My last match was at 7:00 pm on a weeknight. The venue normally is about thirty minutes away. I left home at 5:20 and arrived at about 6:40. No way am I doing that as a protection against dimwittedness.

[LawnChairGeneral]

^^^ Wow. This certainly adds a level of complexity to captain duties. All of our matches are typically within a 10-15 mile radius, same night, weekly.

I think Susan and Peggy equally caused a default by not being where they were supposed to be at the prescribed time. Split.

[JavierLW]

You are the captain, you should pay the $68. You cant give responsibility like that to someone else and put them on the hook for that.

Sure if they are late, then as a player they owe money. But as the captain, YOU ARE THE CAPTAIN! It's your choice not to show up, not to take the needed actions to make sure this doesnt happen.

That's part of being a leader, you're responsible for what goes on. It's not fun, it's not for those who are selfish, and it's not for those who just want to be bossy or are control freaks....

If you find it's unreasonable that they got the site wrong, then whoever was late should pay just like any other player. But dont stick someone who wasnt late with the bill just because you decided to "make them captain". They are really doing you and the team a favor in that situation....

[spot]

Are you people serious about the CAPTAIN being on the hook for the default fees? Seriously? Who would volunteer to be captain knowing that you might have to pay several hundred dollars in default fees over the course of the year if your players didn't leave enough time to allow for traffic? You guys are aware that being captain isn't a full time job right?

I can only assume that anyone who thinks the captain should be the one to pick up the default fees has never been a captain themselves.

[jht32]

Are you people serious about the CAPTAIN being on the hook for the default fees? Seriously? Who would volunteer to be captain knowing that you might have to pay several hundred dollars in default fees over the course of the year if your players didn't leave enough time to allow for traffic? You guys are aware that being captain isn't a full time job right?

I can only assume that anyone who thinks the captain should be the one to pick up the default fees has never been a captain themselves.

I agree, having the captain be responsible for the default fees is expecting too much. I would bet that most people feel this same way too.

[Cindysphinx]

Javier,

If Susan didn't wish to accept the responsibility for being acting captain, then she should have said something along the lines of "I'd rather not be acting captain." Once you take on the responsibility to do something, you have to do it responsibly. If you're an adult.

I must say, this discussion has opened my eyes to something. I kind of wondered if I was a little over the top in sending my players a summary of the nit-picky team policies before they signed on. I mean really, isn't it obvious that if you cause a default then you have to pay the fees and your captain isn't going to eat it? Do I really have to spell that out in advance?

Apparently so.

[goober]

Are you people serious about the CAPTAIN being on the hook for the default fees? Seriously? Who would volunteer to be captain knowing that you might have to pay several hundred dollars in default fees over the course of the year if your players didn't leave enough time to allow for traffic? You guys are aware that being captain isn't a full time job right?

I can only assume that anyone who thinks the captain should be the one to pick up the default fees has never been a captain themselves.

+1
As a captain I am always eating fees of some kind already because players forget to pay or say they will pay me later and never do. Most people end up paying eventually but some don't. I usually don't chase after them because they are public court fees. If the fees were in the range of $68/match for a single court. I would never be captain. IT is NOT too much to expect adult players to be able to read published match schedules which are on the USTA website at the beginning of the season and to read emails and to show up at the right place and right time.

.

[Topaz]

And your only team loss thus far, too. Wow.

They both should pay. If Susan had any doubt as to where the match was she should have consulted you first or looked it up in tennislink.

[Cindysphinx]

Yep, the pressure is on now. We have to go on a 15-match win streak to make Districts now.

One of these days I will tell you about the full-on debacle that occurred in the first match of the season. That one involved a double-default!

[goober]

Yep, the pressure is on now. We have to go on a 15-match win streak to make Districts now.

One of these days I will tell you about the full-on debacle that occurred in the first match of the season. That one involved a double-default!

I had a 2 court default once. The excuses from grown adults can be really embarrassing sometimes- almost on the level as "The dog at my homework":)

[Topaz]

Yep, the pressure is on now. We have to go on a 15-match win streak to make Districts now.

One of these days I will tell you about the full-on debacle that occurred in the first match of the season. That one involved a double-default!

I've wondered about that one for a while!

And I'll have to fill you in on my singles opponent in my last match in your area. It involved whining and foot stomping....no, not from me!!!

I'm starting to think y'all aren't quite right up there! ;)

You haven't played you-know-who though yet, right? My team got her way too early...and still almost pulled it off!

July 3...thunderdome?!? ;)

[Cindysphinx]

No, we have a while before we play you-know-who. Yep, July 3 is going to be the match that decides it, unless we can beat her team.

Fun fact. I am so frantic over the state of our singles (trying to use two singles-only players and one singles/double hybrid to cover 18 team matches!) that I am hitting with a prospective new player this weekend. She is the wife of a tennis pro I decided *not* to hire. (He's good, but I like the guy I picked better, obviously).

Yup, I have no shame at all. I will call a tennis pro who hasn't heard from me in months and see if his wife will save my bacon!!

Maybe when the season is over I will tell you what happened in that first match. I would take me a very long time to type *that* story up!

[OrangePower]

I think Cindy should not have intervened in any way. There was an acting captain (Susan). The acting captain should be left alone to act as captain.

How would this have played out?

Peggy did not make it. Thus #2 singles defaults and Peggy would owe $34.

We don't actually know if Susan did or didn't make it in time.

Had she made it in time, she would play dubs as planned. No additional default or fees.

Had she not made it, a dubs line would be defaulted. Susan would be on the hook for $68.

How is this better or worse than with Cindy's input?

Had Susan made it in time, the lineup would have been better than Cindy's revised lineup. Either way, 1 match is defaulted. But 7 players get to play, rather than 6. And Susan and her partner probably have a better chance at winning their dubs than Susan's partner does at winning a singles match (assuming she is not a regular singles player). And, there is no confusion over who owes what.

Had Susan not made it in time, the lineup would have been worse than Cindy's revised lineup, since 2 matches are defaulted, and Susan's partner doesn't get to play. But still, there would be no confusion over who owes what.

Since we don't know the probability of Susan being on time / being late, we can't evaluate whether Cindy's decision to change the lineup was good or not with respect to the strength of the lineup.

But it was certainly bad with respect to assigning default fees to the responsible parties.

More importantly, it sends out a bad message - that the acting captain does not have to assume full responsibility for captaining duties for the match because Cindy is still there as a security blanket. This is not empowering and does not encourage future acting captains to be more responsible.

The lineup should have been left as is, and Susan should have borne the brunt of her teammates wrath for messing up the match. As acting captain she should have checked the match location for herself. There is no excuse.

[OrangePower]

Javier,

If Susan didn't wish to accept the responsibility for being acting captain, then she should have said something along the lines of "I'd rather not be acting captain." Once you take on the responsibility to do something, you have to do it responsibly. If you're an adult.
I must say, this discussion has opened my eyes to something. I kind of wondered if I was a little over the top in sending my players a summary of the nit-picky team policies before they signed on. I mean really, isn't it obvious that if you cause a default then you have to pay the fees and your captain isn't going to eat it? Do I really have to spell that out in advance?

Apparently so.

Read this after I made my previous post above.

This is exactly why you should *not* have intervened.

[Topaz]

Seriously? It is Cindy's team. Of course she knows the players well enough to make the decisions she did. What the heck kind of captain would NOT intervene in such a situation?!? She called Cindy for help. You think she should have ignored that?

I think some if you are answering in ridiculous ways just to be contentious.

[spot]

Peggy did not make it. Thus #2 singles defaults and Peggy would owe $34.

We don't actually know if Susan did or didn't make it in time.

Had she made it in time, she would play dubs as planned. No additional default or fees.

Had she not made it, a dubs line would be defaulted. Susan would be on the hook for $68.

How is this better or worse than with Cindy's input?

You can't be serious. Are you literally asking how its better that the team only defaulted one line vs potentially defaulting 2 lines? You don't see the difference? Seriously... have you ever been captain before?

[OrangePower]

Seriously? It is Cindy's team. Of course she knows the players well enough to make the decisions she did. What the heck kind of captain would NOT intervene in such a situation?!? She called Cindy for help. You think she should have ignored that?

I think some if you are answering in ridiculous ways just to be contentious.

I think that if you delegate responsibility to someone, then you have to leave them to sink or swim. Otherwise, they will never grow into really assuming those responsibilities.

Obviously exceptions are made in critical or life-threatening situations... but I don't think a tennis match qualifies as one of those.

Remember, Cindy was not captain for this match - Susan was. Cindy should have been out having fun or doing whatever it was she was doing, and should have let Susan and the team sort things out for themselves. We are not talking about emergency crisis-management to avoid WWIII here people! What if Cindy had been unreachable? I think the team and the world would have survived.

[OrangePower]

You can't be serious. Are you literally asking how its better that the team only defaulted one line vs potentially defaulting 2 lines? You don't see the difference? Seriously... have you ever been captain before?

Please read my post more carefully before you comment. Had you read carefully, you would have noticed that I did not conclude one was better or worse. Had Susan in fact made it in time, Cindy's intervention made it worse. Had Susan not shown up in time, Cindy's intervention made it better. We do not know if Susan would have made it or not.

The key work in your "rebuttal" is *potentially*.

And to answer your question, yes, I have been captain. For multiple teams and years. Funnily enough, all of my players show up at the right place at the right time. And my acting captains, when needed, know how to deal with situations on their own. Perhaps it's because they all know that certain things are *their* responsibility and I'm not going to mop up after them if they mess up.

[Cindysphinx]

Orangepower,

I really cannot believe my eyes when I read your post.

The goal of having a tennis team is not to arrange things so it will be crystal clear who owes what when courts are defaulted.

The goal of having a tennis team is not to train the Susans of the world to handle their lives responsibly and not screw up.

The goal of a tennis team is for the team to do as well as possible given the circumstances. In this case, that means defaulting as few courts as possible and then figuring out the money later.

Say I done what you suggest and Susan was too late and we defaulted two courts. My players would be entitled to an explanation of how this debacle happened when all of us have a team goal of going to Districts. Can't you just imagine the message I could have written?

"Hey, ladies. We defaulted two courts today. That's because Susan and Peggy were both late. Susan called me before the match to tell me the whole situation. I was in the back yard mulching my plants. I have the phone numbers of the players in the line-up and could have called them and changed the line-up to guarantee we would only default one court. I decided not to do anything, 'cause it was Susan's problem. Anyway, I hope the defaults don't cost us a trip to Districts!"

Good lord. My players would conclude I had a screw loose, and they would be right.

[Cindysphinx]

One more thing.

Susan was driving from East End to West End. Susan should not be on the road while she is looking up numbers and trying to figure out what to do. She should call someone and let them figure it out while she keeps her eyes on the friggin' road.

Also, consider that this is a *team.* If a team member (Susan) is in trouble, she ought to be able to call upon a teammate to help her. Even if her plight is due to her own irresponsibility.

Players should show up to matches with a spare racket, right? Say Susan sent a racket to be restrung and then forgot to pick it up. Pure carelessness, as it is her responsibility to have equipment that will function during a match. Susan then breaks a string and asks a teammate to lend her a racket to finish the match.

If any of my ladies refused to help a teammate out of a jam to teach her a lesson about responsibility, thereby costing the team a match, that lady would not be on the team the next day.

[OrangePower]

I think you and I have different priorities in general, and in particular different goals when captaining a tennis team.

My goal for a tennis team is to have things run smoothly as possible, have eveyone act like adults and know their responsibilities, try to play our best, and have fun. Hopefullly we do well and ultimately win at Nationals. If not, well, the world will not end.

Remarkably, this approach leads to little to no day-to-day drama. And while we have not yet won Nationals, we've done pretty well results-wise over the years.

Your captaining approach seems to require more micro-managing. If that works for you and your team, that's great. Certainly the drama it creates makes for good reading for the rest of us :-)

I think you are convinced you did the right thing, despite the fact that it's entirely possible that you made the situation *worse* - had Susan in fact ended up arriving in time, your revised lineup is weaker than what it would have been. But I don't think I'm going to change your mind. At any rate, I hope you get all the who-owes-what thing sorted out peacefully.

[Topaz]

How is it micro managing to answer her teammate's call? If one of your members calls you...you ignore them?

Had Cindy not called the players who were at the correct site, do you not think they would have wondered what was going on? If one of them called her should she have ignored them too? How would that be...running things smoothly?

Out of a league of 19 teams, Cindy's is one that everyone thinks (including my captain...and me!) could take the league. She must be doing something right!

[OrangePower]

How is it micro managing to answer her teammate's call? If one of your members calls you...you ignore them?

Had Cindy not called the players who were at the correct site, do you not think they would have wondered what was going on? If one of them called her should she have ignored them too? How would that be...running things smoothly?

Out of a league of 19 teams, Cindy's is one that everyone thinks (including my captain...and me!) could take the league. She must be doing something right!

Ok, I'm going to respond to this post, and then give up. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

Micro-managing includes a bunch of things, one of which is taking premature control back from someone to whom you've assigned responsibility.

I don't know the dynamic between all these people. But for example, one way to handle it when Susan called Cindy, would have been for Cindy to say: Hey Susan, it's your decision as acting captain. Why don't you call our other teammates who are already on site, and tell them what you want them to do. Or if you don't want to call again from the car (despite the fact that you're on the phone with me right now), let me know what you want them to do and I will call them.

That would have left the responsibility with Susan, where it belonged (for this match), while not ignoring anyone.

And as for Cindy's team doing well within the league, that's great and my congratulations to Cindy... but as you well know there are many factors that determine whether a team wins or not, and there are many different captaining approaches that can succeed.

[Cindysphinx]

I'll tell you what.

If I were Susan and realized I had screwed up my captain's/team's plans and I called my captain for help in formulating and executing a plan and she blew me off, I would give her a piece of my mind.

I mean, that is well and truly outrageous.

FWIW, "micromanaging" is not what you claim it is. Micromanaging is when a manager immerses herself in details and tasks best left to subordinates. Micromanaging is not when a manager learns the bleep has hit the fan and then steps in to *manage*.

I can see it now. The Exxon Valdez runs aground and starts spewing oil into the Alaskan waters. The incompetent acting captain who ran the ship aground wakes the captain and tells him about the disaster and asks for help. The captain says, "Hey, dude. It's your decision as acting captain. Why don't you gather your shipmates and tell them what you want them to do. I know you don't have complete information about the capabilities of the ship and crew like I do, but that's too bad. Or if you don't want to call them, let me know of your decision and I will pass it along."

There's a difference between delegating and abdicating.

[spot]

Orangepower. Defaulting 2 lines when the team could instead default only 1 would be incompetence on the part of the captain.

I can't believe that I am even bothering to respond to something so ridiculous. But lets put this another way. How would it be fair to the player that Susan was supposed to play with if Susan was late and her court got defaulted as well? Wouldn't it be better to let her play singles? Susan could have solved the problem by being sure to be at the courts on time. Because she wasn't able to guarantee that then the proper thing to do was to MAKE SURE the team didn't default 2 lines and still had the best chance of taking the day.

I'll just put it this way. If your way of captaining would be that "the lineup is set, if we end up defaulting 2 lines instead of 1 then oh well!" then I would NEVER play on your team. I can't even imagine how anyone could deal with that kind of incompetence.

[jht32]

I'm reading through OrangePower's post on this thread and I think it makes a lot of sense. I'm sure some may disagree with OrangePower's post, but I think it is far from being "ridiculous". Wow!

[Cindysphinx]

"Far from being ridiculous?"

It is the textbook definition of ridiculous.

The reason the idea bothers me so much is that I *hate* captains who handle their teams in a "Who cares?" fashion. There is so much of that attitude among captains. The "Hey, I did my job. I put out a line-up. It doesn't matter if I pulled it out of my backside. It doesn't matter if circumstances have changed or there is a full-on emergency that makes my line-up not the best thing for the team. I'm throwing my hands up because I don't care" attitude.

Captaining isn't a full-time job, but it is still a job. You have to at least try. You should care that things are handled properly. You have to take some pride in what you are doing. You really should care about your reputation. So if your teammates call you and tell you there is an emergency developing, that there are some unknowns (when exactly will Susan arrive?), then you have to do what you can. At a minimum, that means using your gray matter to figure out the best outcome for the team given the problem and the unknowns.

I don't make captaining my life. I try to keep things in perspective. Still, I consider it personally embarrassing if I screw something up, and I believe I have an obligation to the players who sign on to do a reasonable job. When there is an emergency such as happened in this case, the captain should never bail out of the plane as it is crashing. That is just not right.

Count me as another who wouldn't play on a team with a captain like that.

[jht32]

^ I don't know. If I had delegated acting captainship to Susan, I would let her resolve how the fees are assessed. I would empower her to. Of course, I would remind her to send the default fees to West End club instead of East End club, or was it East End club, it's all so confusing.

[Cindysphinx]

No, I don't mean it is ridiculous to allow Susan to decide how the default fees are allocated.

It's ridiculous for the captain to throw her hands up and let Susan (and therefore the team) sink or swim after Susan screwed up.

[jht32]

I can see it now. The Exxon Valdez runs aground and starts spewing oil into the Alaskan waters. The incompetent acting captain who ran the ship aground wakes the captain and tells him about the disaster and asks for help. ...

[QUOTE=Cindysphinx;5666501When there is an emergency such as happened in this case, the captain should never bail out of the plane as it is crashing...[/QUOTE]

Comparing captaining a 3.5 league tennis team (or whatever level it is) to the Exxon Valdez disaster or a plane crash...maybe you are taking this job a little too seriously?

[Cindysphinx]

Comparing captaining a 3.5 league tennis team (or whatever level it is) to the Exxon Valdez disaster or a plane crash...maybe you are taking this job a little too seriously?

No, I am trying to communicate a concept and explain what leadership is about.

[OrangePower]

I'll tell you what.

If I were Susan and realized I had screwed up my captain's/team's plans and I called my captain for help in formulating and executing a plan and she blew me off, I would give her a piece of my mind.

I mean, that is well and truly outrageous.

FWIW, "micromanaging" is not what you claim it is. Micromanaging is when a manager immerses herself in details and tasks best left to subordinates. Micromanaging is not when a manager learns the bleep has hit the fan and then steps in to *manage*.

I can see it now. The Exxon Valdez runs aground and starts spewing oil into the Alaskan waters. The incompetent acting captain who ran the ship aground wakes the captain and tells him about the disaster and asks for help. The captain says, "Hey, dude. It's your decision as acting captain. Why don't you gather your shipmates and tell them what you want them to do. I know you don't have complete information about the capabilities of the ship and crew like I do, but that's too bad. Or if you don't want to call them, let me know of your decision and I will pass it along."

There's a difference between delegating and abdicating.

I suggested a way where you could have let Susan make the decision while still having her maintain responsibility for it. That does not mean blowing her off. You choose not to regard that suggestion. Or maybe allowing her to make the decision is what seems outrageous to you?

Comparing the outcome of a tennis match to the Exxon Valdez disaster is a bit of a stretch don't you think? Especially since in this case you may actually have made things worse (assuming Susan had a chance of getting there on time). Of course you choose not to regard that possibility either.

I don't get why you (and your posse) are so defensive about it. You post, looking for opinions. I give you mine. I think in this situation you made a mistake by making the decision on behalf of the acting captain. My opinion is based on many years of management experience, both in tennis and in business. You are free to regard or disregard it as you wish.

[sureshs]

I'll tell you what.

If I were Susan and realized I had screwed up my captain's/team's plans and I called my captain for help in formulating and executing a plan and she blew me off, I would give her a piece of my mind.

I mean, that is well and truly outrageous.

FWIW, "micromanaging" is not what you claim it is. Micromanaging is when a manager immerses herself in details and tasks best left to subordinates. Micromanaging is not when a manager learns the bleep has hit the fan and then steps in to *manage*.

I can see it now. The Exxon Valdez runs aground and starts spewing oil into the Alaskan waters. The incompetent acting captain who ran the ship aground wakes the captain and tells him about the disaster and asks for help. The captain says, "Hey, dude. It's your decision as acting captain. Why don't you gather your shipmates and tell them what you want them to do. I know you don't have complete information about the capabilities of the ship and crew like I do, but that's too bad. Or if you don't want to call them, let me know of your decision and I will pass it along."

There's a difference between delegating and abdicating.

I think OP (which is OrangePower not you hehehe bet this did not occur to anybody else) did say that emergency situations are exempt from her analysis

[OrangePower]

"Far from being ridiculous?"

It is the textbook definition of ridiculous.

The reason the idea bothers me so much is that I *hate* captains who handle their teams in a "Who cares?" fashion. There is so much of that attitude among captains. The "Hey, I did my job. I put out a line-up. It doesn't matter if I pulled it out of my backside. It doesn't matter if circumstances have changed or there is a full-on emergency that makes my line-up not the best thing for the team. I'm throwing my hands up because I don't care" attitude.

Captaining isn't a full-time job, but it is still a job. You have to at least try. You should care that things are handled properly. You have to take some pride in what you are doing. You really should care about your reputation. So if your teammates call you and tell you there is an emergency developing, that there are some unknowns (when exactly will Susan arrive?), then you have to do what you can. At a minimum, that means using your gray matter to figure out the best outcome for the team given the problem and the unknowns.

I don't make captaining my life. I try to keep things in perspective. Still, I consider it personally embarrassing if I screw something up, and I believe I have an obligation to the players who sign on to do a reasonable job. When there is an emergency such as happened in this case, the captain should never bail out of the plane as it is crashing. That is just not right.

Count me as another who wouldn't play on a team with a captain like that.

Ok, now you're just off on a ride on your high horse - is the view good from up there?

Seriously, what if you happened to be in the shower at the time Susan made her call to you? Would that suddenly have turned you into a bad captain because you were not able to come galloping to save your team in their time of great need?

C'mon now.

[sureshs]

Seriously, what if you happened to be in the shower at the time Susan made her call to you?

Pics or it never happened

[jht32]

Pics or it never happened

Pics can be doctored. Videos are more conclusive.

[sureshs]

Pics can be doctored. Videos are more conclusive.

Is there a video of Cindy in the shower when Susan called?

[Cindysphinx]

Ok, now you're just off on a ride on your high horse - is the view good from up there?

Seriously, what if you happened to be in the shower at the time Susan made her call to you? Would that suddenly have turned you into a bad captain because you were not able to come galloping to save your team in their time of great need?

C'mon now.

Eeeyup, I am totally on my high horse. I'm not gonna deny it. High horses are the very best perch from which to *blast* bad arguments!

Seriously, had I been in the shower, in church, asleep, having hot sex . . . then whatever happened would have happened. We will never know.

That is completely beside the point. When a manager/leader *does* have the opportunity to act to handle/prevent/mitigate a problem, competent leaders do their best.

I just . . . I don't know what profession you are in, but . . . . If a surgeon performs an operation and then hands the sutures to the resident to close and monitor while the surgeon leaves, the resident might still call on the surgeon if something goes wrong. I cannot imagine a competent surgeon saying, "She's bleeding out? Hey, I handed the patient over to you. Just do whatever you would do if I were in the shower."

[sureshs]

Eeeyup, I am totally on my high horse. I'm not gonna deny it. High horses are the very best perch from which to *blast* bad arguments!

Seriously, had I been in the shower, in church, asleep, having hot sex . . . then whatever happened would have happened. We will never know.

That is completely beside the point. When a manager/leader *does* have the opportunity to act to handle/prevent/mitigate a problem, competent leaders do their best.

I just . . . I don't know what profession you are in, but . . . . If a surgeon performs an operation and then hands the sutures to the resident to close and monitor while the surgeon leaves, the resident might still call on the surgeon if something goes wrong. I cannot imagine a competent surgeon saying, "She's bleeding out? Hey, I handed the patient over to you. Just do whatever you would do if I were in the shower."

Again, OP said emergency situations were exempt

[OrangePower]

Eeeyup, I am totally on my high horse. I'm not gonna deny it. High horses are the very best perch from which to *blast* bad arguments!

Seriously, had I been in the shower, in church, asleep, having hot sex . . . then whatever happened would have happened. We will never know.

That is completely beside the point. When a manager/leader *does* have the opportunity to act to handle/prevent/mitigate a problem, competent leaders do their best.

I just . . . I don't know what profession you are in, but . . . . If a surgeon performs an operation and then hands the sutures to the resident to close and monitor while the surgeon leaves, the resident might still call on the surgeon if something goes wrong. I cannot imagine a competent surgeon saying, "She's bleeding out? Hey, I handed the patient over to you. Just do whatever you would do if I were in the shower."

Right, well, unfortunately, you're still not able to see *perspective* from up on that horse.

First the Exxon Valdez, now a bleed out? What next, maybe the Challenger explosion? I think you're taking your tennis *way* too seriously.

See, the surgeon would be on call in your scenario. Now, if you tell me you were on call in anticipation of a possible tennis emergency, and were consciously avoiding any activities that would make you unreachable, then I will condede the argument to you.

But otherwise, you have to see how far-fetched your analogies are.

[spot]

Orangepower- maybe you think that most teams take tennis too seriously but on my team people would be PISSED if we defaulted an extra court unnecessarily. People on my team are still a little irritated with one guy who slept through his 9am match and cost their mixed team playoffs even though it happened 4 years ago. Literally I think on our team we would replace a captain who would default an extra line rather than change the lineup around.

None of our teams have ever defaulted a line due to not having enough players available. Maybe your team is just more tolerant of defaults than mine are?

[Carolina Racquet]

I agree with the comments that those who cannot read emails or look at the posted match schedules/locations on TennisLink and then screw up should eat the default fee.

I captain and probably over-communicate as the match date nears. I remind them to show up 30 mins early, bring water if we're at a public court facility and to bring balls if we're playing a home match. I'm still surprised when some players get it wrong or are 'confused'.

From what I've read, everyone but the two 'missing' women got it right. Those who got it wrong should be responsible.

[OrangePower]

Orangepower- maybe you think that others take tennis too seriously but on my team people would be PISSED if we defaulted an extra court unnecessarily. People on my team are still a little irritated with one guy who slept through his 9am match and cost their mixed team playoffs even though it happened 4 years ago. Literally I think on our team we would replace a captain who would default an extra line rather than change the lineup around.

Hey, I would also be pissed if a court was defaulted. I would be pissed at a player who overslept, or ended up at the wrong location somehow. Actually if someone or two somehow ended up at the wrong location, I might even be pissed at the captain also.

But in this case, it's not clear that an additional court would have been defaulted if the lineup had been left as is. Actually the lineup might have been *stronger* left as is, had Susan made it in time. Neither you nor I know whether that happened or not. Or maybe you do?

Regardless, getting back to the being pissed part... and being irritated *4 years later* at the guy who overslept... seriously, do you think that's healthy? Or appropriate? I don't think I would be part of a group of people like that. Do you? Do you really want to be with people who will hold a grudge against you for years because you messed up once?

[spot]

Our team has a great balance of competitive and social. I didn't say that people were pissed at the guy 4 years later or that he was ostracized. But "a little irritated" is probably the right word- I'm pretty sure someone was poking fun at him about it last night in fact. We have a team that wants to win- if the captain defaulted an extra line because they didn't want to change the lineup they would be replaced with someone more competent.

[OrangePower]

Our team has a great balance of competitive and social. I didn't say that people were pissed at the guy 4 years later or that he was ostracized. But "a little irritated" is probably the right word- I'm pretty sure someone was poking fun at him about it last night in fact. We have a team that wants to win- if the captain defaulted an extra line because they didn't want to change the lineup they would be replaced with someone more competent.

No, actually, you *did* indicate people were pissed at the guy 4 years later. You specifically said "irritated". And you just said it again in your latest post.

Here are some helpful definitions:

irritated - aroused to impatience or anger
irritated - annoyed, cross, angry, bothered, put out, hacked (off) (U.S. slang), pissed (Brit., Austral., & N.Z. taboo slang), harassed, impatient, ruffled, exasperated, irritable, nettled, vexed, pissed off (taboo slang), displeased, flustered, peeved (informal)

Ok, so they are just a *little* pissed 4 years later. Nice.

[jht32]

The Exxon Valdez runs aground and starts spewing oil into the Alaskan waters. The incompetent acting captain who ran the ship aground wakes the captain and tells him about the disaster and asks for help.

When there is an emergency such as happened in this case, the captain should never bail out of the plane as it is crashing.

If a surgeon performs an operation and then hands the sutures to the resident to close and monitor while the surgeon leaves, the resident might still call on the surgeon if something goes wrong."

Exxon Valdez - 100000 dead seabirds, 3000 dead sea otters, 300 dead harbor seals, 247 dead bald eagles, 22 dead orcas, as well as unknown long-term effects.

Plane Crash - 300 dead passengers

Surgical mishap - 1 dead patient

"Possibly" one extra default line in a 3.5 tennis league - priceless

[spot]

Well to me there is a huge difference between "a little irritated" and "pissed off at". I'm apologize if the difference is lost on you. Way to go all thesaurus on me as if that helps prove your point. i'm glad to know that "annoyed" and "angry" are also the same thing to you.

[Cindysphinx]

Right, well, unfortunately, you're still not able to see *perspective* from up on that horse.

First the Exxon Valdez, now a bleed out? What next, maybe the Challenger explosion? I think you're taking your tennis *way* too seriously.

See, the surgeon would be on call in your scenario. Now, if you tell me you were on call in anticipation of a possible tennis emergency, and were consciously avoiding any activities that would make you unreachable, then I will condede the argument to you.

But otherwise, you have to see how far-fetched your analogies are.

My analogies are far-fetched because I need to use examples that folks have heard of and understand. It has not escaped my notice that you haven't pointed out what is wrong with the analogies in terms of logic.

Anyway, of course I am "on call" when my players are playing. I was mulching my plants on a warm afternoon, and I wore a jacket so I could have my cell phone on my person and at maximum volume.

There are times when I cannot answer a call from a frantic teammate -- driving, church -- but I do try to be available in that critical hour before a match when I can.

So do you concede? :)

[Cindysphinx]

Exxon Valdez - 100000 dead seabirds, 3000 dead sea otters, 300 dead harbor seals, 247 dead bald eagles, 22 dead orcas, as well as unknown long-term effects.

Plane Crash - 300 dead passengers

Surgical mishap - 1 dead patient

"Possibly" one extra default line in a 3.5 tennis league - priceless

With analogies, it is important to address the logic.

The logic, in case it was not clear, is that ordinary events can become extraordinary in the blink of an eye. We call these things "emergencies." The issue on the table is how a tennis captain should respond to an emergency.

A tennis captain who does not respond to an emergency when the opportunity is presented is incompetent, as are the pilot, ship captain and surgeon in the analogies.

Now. Do you take issue with the logic?

Regarding Spot's remarks . . . yes. Teammates get unhappy when they are putting in the effort to be where they are supposed to be and someone else is not. No one likes to be pulling on the oar as hard as they can only to find a fellow rower asleep in the back of the boat.

If you think they do not become annoyed/irritated/angry, believe me, they are grumbling about it when the guilty party is not there.

[Cindysphinx]

I don't get why you (and your posse) are so defensive about it. You post, looking for opinions. I give you mine. I think in this situation you made a mistake by making the decision on behalf of the acting captain. My opinion is based on many years of management experience, both in tennis and in business. You are free to regard or disregard it as you wish.

This -- which I think came in an edit -- is a fair point. Why is your position so frustrating?

The question in the thread is who eats the default fees. You introduced the idea that I made a mistake. So I guess this is my fault in some way? Which means I should eat the fees.

Well, I guess that means we have three people on the thread who think I should eat the fees.

FWIW, I wrote an ambiguous message addressed to both players asking for $68, but not allocating the amount. Both took responsibility for the debacle and said they would send me a check for the full amount. So far I have received nothing. If I wind up receiving $136, I will cash both checks and credit both players' accounts with $34 against season court fees.

[OrangePower]

My analogies are far-fetched because I need to use examples that folks have heard of and understand. It has not escaped my notice that you haven't pointed out what is wrong with the analogies in terms of logic.

The error with the logic of your analogies: In practice there is correlation between when intervention is appropriate, and the consequences of such intervention not taking place. As a consequence, death and destruction kinda trumps default of a line in a recreational tennis match. Therefore, one cannot determine the appropriateness of intervention in a tennis match based on analogies with death and destruction scenarios.

Anyway, of course I am "on call" when my players are playing. I was mulching my plants on a warm afternoon, and I wore a jacket so I could have my cell phone on my person and at maximum volume.

There are times when I cannot answer a call from a frantic teammate -- driving, church -- but I do try to be available in that critical hour before a match when I can.

So do you concede? :)

I concede. If this is common practice for you, then your team has a reasonable expectation that you will always be there to step in and save the day. In light of this you were right to make the decision you did, since obviously none of the rest of them is comfortable making the call.

On my teams, I set the expectation that if I am not captain for a match, then the acting captain (and the rest of the team) should assume that I am not reachable. Then I go off and enjoy my day, while they handle the match like the big boys that they are.

[OrangePower]

Regarding Spot's remarks . . . yes. Teammates get unhappy when they are putting in the effort to be where they are supposed to be and someone else is not. No one likes to be pulling on the oar as hard as they can only to find a fellow rower asleep in the back of the boat.

If you think they do not become annoyed/irritated/angry, believe me, they are grumbling about it when the guilty party is not there.

Of course. Being annoyed/irritated/angry when and after that kind of situation arises natural and expected. Carrying that annoyed/irritated/angry emotion around four years later is not.

Again it's an issue of scale. If someone murdered somebody close to me, yeah I'd still be pissed off years after the fact. If someone causes my team to default, I'd maybe be pissed for the next week or two , and then I'd put it behind me (assuming it was unintentional).

[OrangePower]

The question in the thread is who eats the default fees. You introduced the idea that I made a mistake. So I guess this is my fault in some way? Which means I should eat the fees.

No, I don't necessarily think you should eat the fees, and certainly not all of them.

There is no doubt Peggy owes $34.

The other $34 is between you and Susan. Most likely Susan feels like an idiot and will assume responsibility for it.

But: She can also make a reasonable argument that she is not responsible for the default since she would have made it on time (assuming she feels that she would have), and thus been able to play doubles as scheduled, had you not intervened. Under this logic, since the unneccessary intervention was yours, the financial consequences are yours too.

Moreover, she can try to argue that it was her call to make and not yours (although I no longer think this is a valid argument based on your description of the dynamic between you and your teammates).

[Xisbum]

This is the Best. Thread. Ever. :-)

[JoelDali]

http://ibankcoin.com/chessnwine/files/2011/04/381290-drama_queen.jpg

[RedWeb]

Having an alternate assigned to each match has saved the teams I'm on many a time. That might of helped here.

... women! Men can't live without them and they can't pee standing up.

[Topaz]

We most certainly can pee standing up.

I'm captaining a team. Just got a call from someone who got lost on her way to a makeup match. I have a designated acting captain on site. But yet...I still answered the phone and gave my player directions. Then I called the acting captain so she would know what to do.

I'm such an enabler. :roll:

I'm sure our trusty men would have handled things so much differently.

[Cindysphinx]

We most certainly can pee standing up.

I'm captaining a team. Just got a call from someone who got lost on her way to a makeup match. I have a designated acting captain on site. But yet...I still answered the phone and gave my player directions. Then I called the acting captain so she would know what to do.

I'm such an enabler. :roll:

I'm sure our trusty men would have handled things so much differently.

Yep, here's the best part. Say this thread were different.

Imagine I came here and said this instead: "We defaulted two courts last night, can you believe it? Acting captain knew she might not make it in time, and we knew we were going to default one court for sure. I knew that Susan's partner played singles last year and went to sectionals, so it made sense to move her to singles instead of gambling that Susan would make it. She kept the line-up the same and, just like I had warned, the traffic around West End was awful and she didn't make it. Susan had called me for help, but I told her I wasn't getting involved and she needed to figure it out herself."

Can you imagine the beating the folks here would give me? Oh, I can hear it now: "You're so incompetent! How could you let the team default two lines? You're an idiot. What kind of captain are you?!?!?"

Yeah, some folks here just like to be contentious.

[Cindysphinx]

Sounds like the OP is defending her position to the ends of the earth, and not taking anyone's helpful advice and opinions to heart.

If you're not going to listen to anyone, and are just trying to defend your position relentlessly - why did you bother posting this? Just do whatever you think is right, and move on.

Sound familiar?

Yes, I took the advice of the folks here. I will be splitting the $68 between the two players. I think the majority here are correct that this is the most fair thing to do.

Sound familiar? Didn't think so.

[RedWeb]

Cindy and top, i love you girls! Reviewing this thread and reading everyone's opinions and reactions is like being in a big litter of puppies and enjoying the rolling around and play fighting. I'm smiling from ear to ear right now. It even made my knees feel better!

We most certainly can pee standing up....

Oh yeah I forgot about the gal in Step-Brothers.

[Cindysphinx]

Cindy and top, i love you girls! Reviewing this thread and reading everyone's opinions and reactions is like being in a big litter of puppies and enjoying the rolling around and play fighting. I'm smiling from ear to ear right now. It even made my knees feel better!


Well then, this thread has served its purpose.

My work here is finished. :)

[Cindysphinx]

No, I don't necessarily think you should eat the fees, and certainly not all of them.

There is no doubt Peggy owes $34.

The other $34 is between you and Susan. Most likely Susan feels like an idiot and will assume responsibility for it.

But: She can also make a reasonable argument that she is not responsible for the default since she would have made it on time (assuming she feels that she would have), and thus been able to play doubles as scheduled, had you not intervened. Under this logic, since the unneccessary intervention was yours, the financial consequences are yours too.

Moreover, she can try to argue that it was her call to make and not yours (although I no longer think this is a valid argument based on your description of the dynamic between you and your teammates).

Anyone who would dare make such an argument is of poor character. Seriously.

I asked Susan point blank: "Are you going to make it?" Her answer was, "I don't know. I will try."

Susan created this problem by getting confused and by not allowing enough time to make the trip. Then she called me to get help. If she later tried to claim *I* caused a default because of a mess *she* created . . . .

I swear, what's wrong with people these days? No one will take responsibility for anything.

The scary thing is that there must be people in the world who think this way. Orangepower is one, so that is proof that they exist.

I think I may start having my players sign written contracts and post bonds before they can play on my teams.

[OrangePower]

Anyone who would dare make such an argument is of poor character. Seriously.

I asked Susan point blank: "Are you going to make it?" Her answer was, "I don't know. I will try."

Susan created this problem by getting confused and by not allowing enough time to make the trip. Then she called me to get help. If she later tried to claim *I* caused a default because of a mess *she* created . . . .

I swear, what's wrong with people these days? No one will take responsibility for anything.

The scary thing is that there must be people in the world who think this way. Orangepower is one, so that is proof that they exist.

I think I may start having my players sign written contracts and post bonds before they can play on my teams.

Au contraire, mon cheri. I've already expained to you how you were the instrument that took responsibility *away* from Susan. How ironic that you would wrest her authority from her and then bemoan her for not taking responsibility!

But at least we can agree on the dearth of personal responsibility these days.

[sureshs]

I think Cindy, Susan and Peggy should have a mud wrestling contest to figure out who should pay.

[sureshs]

Only problem with that idea is, ticket sales wouldn't cover the cost of the default. That's a lock...

We are talking minimal clothing/clothing optional here