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TimothyO
05-31-2011, 04:21 AM
Sometimes I wish there was a third category in the tennis equipment section called Tennis Systems. It would be focused on the total effect of frame and strings. Frames and strings certainly play differently within thier respective categories but there are a lot of ways to skin a cat. The more I learn about tennis hardware the more interested I become in how the total tennis system of frame, strings, and other components combine to provide a certain playing experience. Spin generation and comfort is an excellent example...

The most important factor in generating top spin or any kind of spin is technique. Brush the ball correctly and it spins. Hit flat and it doesn't.
The faster you brush the ball the more spin you generate. And the greater the angle the more spin too.

Which brings us to the topic of this thread. The faster you brush the ball the more energy you impart, even at steep angles. So even with good rotational speed the ball might fly long if the total tennis system of string and frame imparts too much energy on the forward vector. So many players seek lower power set ups ("systems") which allow one to "brush up" with great speed while limiting the forward momentum imparted to the ball.

There are a number of ways to limit power on the forward vector. One is to use lower power polys, especially in spin friendly (yet higher power) open string bed patterns. Another that I've been using is a low power dense string bed and softer frame with a spin friendly gut-based hybrid (but gut tends to be higher powered).

Assuming sound technique, rapid brushing speed, and good angle, in your opinion which is the best total system approach for spin generation? Is the spin generated by an open pattern poly based system worth the potential arm health issues? Can dense yet soft systems composed of 18x20 string beds in soft frames using gut/poly hybrids compete?

In other words, what's your total system design of frame and strings for arm-friendly maximum spin potential? Factors to consider include string pattern, frame stiffness, frame weight and balance, string type, tension, etc.

Another reason I'm interested in this topic is the emergence of ever more arm friendly co-polys. Again, taking a total system approach, might there come a day when systems using large frames with open patterns and advanced co-polys allow insane spin potential while being as arm friendly as gut? Could they be soft enough for use in dense patterns for the ultimate combination of control and spin?

Or will control, comfort, and spin potential always be at odds and subject to horse trading?

Power Player
05-31-2011, 07:23 AM
The bal spins when you hit it flat as well.

Regardless, full poly and an open pattern gives you a lot of spin. It may not be the right spin though. What if you have good spin technique already and can generate it on your own? Unless you want to hit like Nadal and use a ton of energy, you may end up sending over balls that bounce short and then drop back into the strike zone.

The 18x20 pattern just changes the trajectory. So if you already hit with heavy spin, it can keep it deep and thus kicking harder off the baseline, which works better for me. for a pro example of this, see Djoker who hits with massive spin, but has the ball penetrating deep into the court.

Open pattern, plus full poly plus heavy spin technique can work against you. It all matters on your stroke, which is why people can't create a "system". You just have to figure it out for yourself.

LeeD
05-31-2011, 07:40 AM
Bunch things wrong here....
Are you saying "one racket and string for everyone"?
Did you forget personal preferences?
Do you know some hit hard, some hit soft, some swing fast, other's slow?
Did you forget some don't hit as hard as they can?
Do you know Roddick uses a stiff big hoop and Fed uses a much smaller hoop, while DJ uses a much softer hoop?
Why should ONE pair of shoes fit everyone?
If you can hit hard topspin, you can hit hard topspin with any decent racket.

fgs
05-31-2011, 02:49 PM
material accounts for max. 5% of spin production, the rest is YOUR stroke-mechanics!

Thepowerofchoice
05-31-2011, 05:02 PM
Here is a "Spin Machine" Vortex ES108.
Check out this string pattern 14m x 16c

http://i472.photobucket.com/albums/rr84/thepowerofchoice/Vortex/IMG_5223.jpg

TimothyO
05-31-2011, 08:56 PM
Bunch things wrong here....
Are you saying "one racket and string for everyone"?
Did you forget personal preferences?
Do you know some hit hard, some hit soft, some swing fast, other's slow?
Did you forget some don't hit as hard as they can?
Do you know Roddick uses a stiff big hoop and Fed uses a much smaller hoop, while DJ uses a much softer hoop?
Why should ONE pair of shoes fit everyone?
If you can hit hard topspin, you can hit hard topspin with any decent racket.


Nope. That's why I underlined and bolded YOUR as part of system. Physique, skill, experience, and personal preferences are crucial. I was hitting very good kick serves tonight with an 18x20 pattern. But conventional wisdom as expressed on forums such as this one suggest an open pattern would be the better choice.

Your last line is the driver for this question relative to this forum and its content. So many rec players are members of the Cult of Spin I'm curious about THEIR personal experience in trying to achieve THEIR perfect spin system (frame and string combo).

As for the tone of your post, it's pretty insipid. Thanks for noting what was already covered in the OP! If you're looking for p'ing contest on the importance of technique for spin generation read the first part of my OP and then move along. You have nothing to add as I already covered it.

LeeD
05-31-2011, 09:15 PM
Wow, Mr.Smarty Pants with a stupid question .... "which setup works best" who already answered his own question, now seeking an argument on the net.
What else is new?

tnsanydy
05-31-2011, 09:30 PM
Nope. That's why I underlined and bolded YOUR as part of system. Physique, skill, experience, and personal preferences are crucial. I was hitting very good kick serves tonight with an 18x20 pattern. But conventional wisdom as expressed on forums such as this one suggest an open pattern would be the better choice.

Your last line is the driver for this question relative to this forum and its content. So many rec players are members of the Cult of Spin I'm curious about THEIR personal experience in trying to achieve THEIR perfect spin system (frame and string combo).

As for the tone of your post, it's pretty insipid. Thanks for noting what was already covered in the OP! If you're looking for p'ing contest on the importance of technique for spin generation read the first part of my OP and then move along. You have nothing to add as I already covered it.

I'm sorry but I have to agree with Leed- you've got too much time in your hands spent in the computer instead of the court! Go out there,seek , and you shall find! Best of all, don't make it complicated and you'll have more fun!:)

JackB1
06-01-2011, 08:45 AM
Nope. That's why I underlined and bolded YOUR as part of system. Physique, skill, experience, and personal preferences are crucial. I was hitting very good kick serves tonight with an 18x20 pattern. But conventional wisdom as expressed on forums such as this one suggest an open pattern would be the better choice.

Your last line is the driver for this question relative to this forum and its content. So many rec players are members of the Cult of Spin I'm curious about THEIR personal experience in trying to achieve THEIR perfect spin system (frame and string combo).

As for the tone of your post, it's pretty insipid. Thanks for noting what was already covered in the OP! If you're looking for p'ing contest on the importance of technique for spin generation read the first part of my OP and then move along. You have nothing to add as I already covered it.

Also gotta side with Lee here. Technique and technique alone will account for 90% of your spin...everything else is just slightly incremental and mostly personal preferences. Obviously the larger the drill pattern squares in the racquet...the more spin "potential". Gut mains with slippery copoly crosses are proven spin monsters and so is a full poly setup. Thin strings spin more than thick ones.

The main point Lee was trying to make was that there isn't ONE perfect "spin system" for everybody since there are many other factors that come into play.

Power Player
06-01-2011, 09:06 AM
agree, which is what I said in my first post. I don't know why OP would get so mad about reality. There is no perfect spin system, unless everyone swung the exact same.

What trajectory do you want?
What consistent court depth?
What strokes are your best and weakest?
Do you want to be able to flatten out winners as well?
Do you have an incredible level of fitness, average, or low?

That's just a few questions that are far more important than racquet strings.

Larrysümmers
06-01-2011, 09:57 AM
prestige mid with head synthetic gut WW forehand and i can get a lot of topspin. more than my 14*18 full poly setup

tnsanydy
06-01-2011, 11:23 AM
Nope. That's why I underlined and bolded YOUR as part of system. Physique, skill, experience, and personal preferences are crucial. I was hitting very good kick serves tonight with an 18x20 pattern. But conventional wisdom as expressed on forums such as this one suggest an open pattern would be the better choice.

Your last line is the driver for this question relative to this forum and its content. So many rec players are members of the Cult of Spin I'm curious about THEIR personal experience in trying to achieve THEIR perfect spin system (frame and string combo).

As for the tone of your post, it's pretty insipid. Thanks for noting what was already covered in the OP! If you're looking for p'ing contest on the importance of technique for spin generation read the first part of my OP and then move along. You have nothing to add as I already covered it.

You also addressed your own question when you mentioned " I was hitting very good kick serves tonight with an 18x20 pattern". So common sense that you'll do much better with an open pattern, right? I guess you just want some validation from our fellow posters of what you already know in the first place and that's alright. That's also the reason why theirs a gazillion rackets out there to choose from because of personal preferences.

Keifers
06-01-2011, 10:19 PM
Sometimes I wish there was a third category in the tennis equipment section called Tennis Systems. It would be focused on the total effect of frame and strings. Frames and strings certainly play differently within thier respective categories but there are a lot of ways to skin a cat. The more I learn about tennis hardware the more interested I become in how the total tennis system of frame, strings, and other components combine to provide a certain playing experience. Spin generation and comfort is an excellent example...

...

In other words, what's your total system design of frame and strings for arm-friendly maximum spin potential? Factors to consider include string pattern, frame stiffness, frame weight and balance, string type, tension, etc.

Another reason I'm interested in this topic is the emergence of ever more arm friendly co-polys. Again, taking a total system approach, might there come a day when systems using large frames with open patterns and advanced co-polys allow insane spin potential while being as arm friendly as gut? Could they be soft enough for use in dense patterns for the ultimate combination of control and spin?

Or will control, comfort, and spin potential always be at odds and subject to horse trading?
TO,

I like the system-level approach to thinking about maximizing comfort and spin potential that you've introduced here. You've posed some interesting questions and made it clear that you're not trying to prescribe or arrive at a one-size-fits-all solution.

As you noted in your OP, technique is by far the major factor in producing spin. With that as a given, the racquet system can make a difference. I had this happen just recently when I playtested a Bio 200: With my normal groundstrokes, I noticed an increase in spin -- balls were jumping off the court with no additional effort from me.

I attributed this to the new 200's very solid, stable hoop and flexy throat area. The strings were Dunlop Silk 16 @ mid + 2 (62 lbs) and I expect that total system spin potential would jump with the use of gut or co-poly (full or hybrid). I hope to confirm this soon.

To have this added spin potential in a 95" 18X20 player's racquet (I prefer smaller head sizes) is a nice prospect.