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View Full Version : Federer or Graf- which is the stronger GOAT candidate


NadalAgassi
06-16-2011, 12:27 AM
Which of these 2 players do you think has a stronger argument to be the GOAT of their respective genders.

Sentinel
06-16-2011, 01:18 AM
(Nadal in 5.)

Sid_Vicious
06-16-2011, 01:20 AM
Yeah yeah, you think they are the most farcical GOAT candidates ever to play the game. :lol:

TennisFan3
06-16-2011, 01:22 AM
LOL..Is this a trick question?

Graf by a COUNTRY mile. It's not even close..

ViscaB
06-16-2011, 01:47 AM
Graf, It's all in the head ... 2h;).

NadalAgassi
06-16-2011, 03:42 AM
I guess by default I choose Graf. I dont think either is a worthy GOAT though. Atleast 3 others per gender superior to both IMHO.

Gorecki
06-16-2011, 03:47 AM
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm24/lambfreack/sunnydeol-2b-1_1186980358.jpg

Augustus
06-16-2011, 03:57 AM
I guess by default I choose Graf. I dont think either is a worthy GOAT though. Atleast 3 others per gender superior to both IMHO.

This is beyond ridiculous, davey25. Steffi Graf, with 22 slams (7 Wimbledons and 6 FOs), The Golden Slam and numerous other records is the female GOAT. If not for injuries, she might have won even more. Only Navratilova and maybe Evert can arguably challenge her claim, but are by no means 'superior' (except Martina being the GOAT on grass). So it's outrageous to claim that at least 3 women are superior to Graf...

As for Federer, it's a more difficult question. He's far from 'undisputed' GOATness, for reasons that have been discussed endlessly on this forum, but I can't think of any player that is clearly superior to him either. Rod Laver and some of the ancient greats like Gonzales might have a case as well though, just like Nadal maybe if he wins at least some more slams.

mandy01
06-16-2011, 04:25 AM
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm24/lambfreack/sunnydeol-2b-1_1186980358.jpg
Haha! So much WIN!
It's not fair :( :evil:

Bud
06-16-2011, 04:26 AM
Graf by a huge margin :)

Based on the poll results, we'll all know exactly who the forum *******s are ;)

THUNDERVOLLEY
06-16-2011, 04:47 AM
Graf. Far and above all else, she won the Grand Slam, and managed to remain a powerful force in the game beyond that historic achievement.

mandy01
06-16-2011, 04:49 AM
Graf by a huge margin :)

Based on the poll results, we'll all know exactly who the forum *******s are ;)
Interestingly,we also get to know who the forum *******s are :)

Smasher08
06-16-2011, 04:52 AM
This photo says it all: Federer clearly in awe of Kobe, who's ignoring him to shake hands with Sampras.

http://crackbillionair.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/fedkobe.jpg?w=473&h=325

Without a doubt, Kobe would have ditched them both in a heartbeat just to shake hands with Steffi. ;)

Sentinel
06-16-2011, 04:57 AM
Shame on you, gorecki, for posting pictures of ksbh from his facebook :D

I notice his wrinkles have been photoshopped off.


Graf or Nadal ???

NadalAgassi
06-16-2011, 05:09 AM
Here are some highlights of both of their careers:

Graf:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyidS1Mwf6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGupLOYTZxU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPTLjdkukk&playnext=1&list=PLA1FF02C12CF74895


Federer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eqjWcz_28M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFA7Ob6HR-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJn1iljsOqo

The GOATs just overpowering everyone as you can see, LOL!

mandy01
06-16-2011, 05:19 AM
Here are some highlights of both of their careers:


Those are cherry-picked highlights.Essentially useless(highlights don't prove much anyway but still).But then,coming from you,that is rather predictable.

Gorecki
06-16-2011, 07:01 AM
this thread is gud!!! so gud!!!

DjokovicForTheWin
06-16-2011, 07:15 AM
This is easy to decide, just have Fed and Graf play one another 10 times and let the H2H decide it :)

Gorecki
06-16-2011, 07:21 AM
Beastly Nadal for the win!

Sentinel
06-16-2011, 07:21 AM
Would the dudes who voted for Graf vote for her against Dull too ?

Gorecki
06-16-2011, 07:24 AM
Would the dudes who voted for Graf vote for her against Dull too ?

I know i Would... to me Graf is GOAT on the womens side, whereas neither Fed nor Rafa are on the mens side! and no... it's not about slam count!

THUNDERVOLLEY
06-16-2011, 07:33 AM
Would the dudes who voted for Graf vote for her against Dull too ?

If you mean "Dull" as in the pejorative nickname "******," then Nadal--like Federer loses as the stronger GOAT-level candidate to Graf's feat.

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 07:42 AM
Well winning 16 majors by a man looks more difficult for me than the same number of majors won by a woman. Just look at this stat: tennis players (both men and women) who have won at least 10 majors since 1970:

Men:
1. Federer 16
2. Sampras 14
3. Borg 11
4. Nadal 10

Women:
1. Graf 22
2. Navratilova 18
3. Evert 18
4. Williams 13

The competition in the men's circuit has always been winder than in the women's.

Plus Federer didn't have the priviledge of Nadal being stabbed in the back once he started beating Federer more often in 2008 :D

TMF
06-16-2011, 07:57 AM
I vote for Federer, not only the slam count, but other incredible records that he broke and now own.

Graf and Martina is like 1 and 1a. While Graf holds for the most slam count, Martina's mind-boggling records cannot be ignore.

Emet74
06-16-2011, 08:03 AM
Plus Federer didn't have the priviledge of Nadal being stabbed in the back once he started beating Federer more often in 2008 :D

This.

I'm not generally a fan of asterisks and hypotheticals, but Steffi (and Monica's) career resumes need them IMO.

Steffi was a great, great player, no doubt. But for one of her fan base to physically attack (and mentally destroy) her main rival in that rival's prime just puts a cloud over everything achieved after that.

It was for me the saddest incident and low point of this sport. It wasn't Steffi' s fault but it does affect her legacy.

Gorecki
06-16-2011, 08:13 AM
1, 5 cm? two years?....

ksbh
06-16-2011, 08:21 AM
Here we go again, the Feddie fans obsession with GOAT! Some of them should be thrown at the receiving end of this device-



http://www.outlookindia.com/images/sunny_deol_border_20070521.jpg

lonux
06-16-2011, 08:23 AM
I guess by default I choose Graf. I dont think either is a worthy GOAT though. Atleast 3 others per gender superior to both IMHO.

And those are? Nadal, Nadal, Nadal, Serena, Serena and Serena? :lol:

Here are some highlights of both of their careers:

Graf:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyidS1Mwf6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGupLOYTZxU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUPTLjdkukk&playnext=1&list=PLA1FF02C12CF74895


Federer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eqjWcz_28M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFA7Ob6HR-k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJn1iljsOqo

The GOATs just overpowering everyone as you can see, LOL!

Thank for giving me a laugh at least! :lol:

Unbelievable...you actually selected Federer as the prime candidate for the GOAT in place of Rafa, the widely accepted GOAT? Do you live in a rock?

Federer pales in comparison to the great Rafa, even though he has more GS titles. The difference between the two is that Federer garnered his GS' in a horribly weak era, while Rafa is playing against Federer, Nole, and Murray, who are all worthy contenders for multiple GS titles. Rafa is the GOAT, and in the near future, I'm confident that he'll solidify his spot as the UGOAT (Unsurpassable Greatest of All Time).

Now this is how you troll well, davey25. Better learn from him a bit! :lol:

lonux
06-16-2011, 08:24 AM
Here we go again, the Feddie fans obsession with GOAT! Some of them should be thrown at the receiving end of this device-



Just to tell you, it was NadalAgassi who started this thread, therefore your conclusions are false!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist it :lol:

ksbh
06-16-2011, 08:26 AM
ROFL, Lonux ... NadalAgassi should be thrown in there as well! :)

Just to tell you, it was NadalAgassi who started this thread, therefore your conclusions are false!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist it :lol:

Gorecki
06-16-2011, 08:26 AM
Just to tell you, it was NadalAgassi who started this thread, therefore your conclusions are false!

Sorry, I just couldn't resist it :lol:

Mr Punjabi GOAT sees what he wants. he is entitled for that since he did all the media PR he had to back when he was raking slams...

pc1
06-16-2011, 08:31 AM
Let's check the stats

Majors
Graf-22 majors in 56 attempts=39.3%
Federer-16 majors in 48 attempts=33.3%

Tournaments won
Graf-107 tournaments out of 223 played=48.0%
Federer-67 tournaments won out of 240 played=27.9%

Lifetime winning percentage
Graf-88.7%
Federer-81.0%

Sneezy
06-16-2011, 08:51 AM
My vote would be for Federer. He broke how many records and made how many achievements with Nadal there. Graf's main rival Seles on the other hand was not there for an extended period, and how many of the other women during that era could beat Graf on a regular basis? I think its more impressive to be a big fish in a pond with an equally big fish around (Federer/Nadal), than a big fish (Graf) in a pond with small fish around.

lonux
06-16-2011, 08:54 AM
What a fail way to make me look like the idiot, fool. It's a shame that ********/I] fans refuse to look at the facts that support Nadal as being the UGOAT. Sorry, go masturbate to Fed[I]error's shanks somewhere else.

Nadal's the ugliest geek of all time? :confused:

Now you're confusing me.

TheNatural
06-16-2011, 08:57 AM
Let's check the stats

Majors
Graf-22 majors in 56 attempts=39.3%
Federer-16 majors in 48 attempts=33.3%

Tournaments won
Graf-107 tournaments out of 223 played=48.0%
Federer-67 tournaments out of 67 tournaments won out of 240 played=27.9%

Lifetime winning percentage
Graf-88.7%
Federer-81.0%

what about the h2h in slams vs the greatest rival

Fred is 2-7(22%) how does that compare to Graf?

Sneezy
06-16-2011, 09:25 AM
Its not like he said he WISHED, or HOPED that Nadal would be stabbed. Now, that would be low.

Netzroller
06-16-2011, 09:37 AM
I'm not sure if it makes that much sense to compare men and women achievments. It's already problematic to compare players from different generations, but adding different genders simply makes it a whole different situation.

edit: misunderstood the question.. still I think it's a somewhat weird question

I vote for Federer, not only the slam count, but other incredible records that he broke and now own.

Graf and Martina is like 1 and 1a. While Graf holds for the most slam count, Martina's mind-boggling records cannot be ignore.
Most singles GS titles would be Court, not Graf

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 09:41 AM
That's a dirty comment to make you low life scumbag. Then to top it off you throw a smilie in there. What a pathetic excuse for a human being, you would just love someone to stab Rafa wouldn't you. Just confirms how scared you are that Rafa will one day break Fed's record.

I wouldn't reply to me if I were you, you pretty much insult me whathever I say thus giving me a reason to report your naughty posts, you're gonna be banned sooner or later unless you learn how to behave, kiddo

Sharpshooter
06-16-2011, 09:56 AM
Its not like he said he WISHED, or HOPED that Nadal would be stabbed. Now, that would be low.

No but he said it was a priveldge for Steffi when Monica got stabbed and implied that it would be a priviledge if Rafa got stabbed then threw a smilie in there because he thinks it funny. That is low.

Sharpshooter
06-16-2011, 09:57 AM
I wouldn't reply to me if I were you, you pretty much insult me whathever I say thus giving me a reason to report your naughty posts, you're gonna be banned sooner or later unless you learn how to behave, kiddo

Really? IIRC it was you who got banned last time pal. Report me as much as you want, I'm not the one acting like it would be funny to see another great player get stabbed you low life.

mandy01
06-16-2011, 09:58 AM
Here we go again, the Feddie fans obsession with GOAT! Some of them should be thrown at the receiving end of this device-



http://www.outlookindia.com/images/sunny_deol_border_20070521.jpgOP is clearly a Nadie fan :wink:

ksbh
06-16-2011, 10:01 AM
Well let's just say all the Federer and Nadal fanatics need to be in the line of that device! Just the fanatics, mind! :)

OP is clearly a Nadie fan :wink:

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 10:32 AM
Really? IIRC it was you who got banned last time pal. Report me as much as you want, I'm not the one acting like it would be funny to see another great player get stabbed you low life.

First of all I got banned for 1 day because of a stupid thread, not because I insult everyone around. Moreover, only a maniac would want someone to get stabbed in the back for whatever reason.

Sharpshooter
06-16-2011, 11:07 AM
First of all I got banned for 1 day because of a stupid thread, not because I insult everyone around. Moreover, only a maniac would want someone to get stabbed in the back for whatever reason.

Why did you put a smilie on that post then? They are usually indicators of something you think is funny. Don't back pedal. If it happened to Nadal you'd love it. I don't like Fed but I would never want anyone to stab him. When I saw that guy run out in the 09 RG final I was worried he was a mad Rafa fan and was gonna attack Fed.

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 11:18 AM
Why did you put a smilie on that post then? They are usually indicators of something you think is funny. Don't back pedal. If it happened to Nadal you'd love it. I don't like Fed but I would never want anyone to stab him. When I saw that guy run out in the 09 RG final I was worried he was a mad Rafa fan and was gonna attack Fed.

Obviously I'd like Federer to win more but not at the cost of someone's stabbing. Get a life already.

I put a smiley because I think Graf was superlucky in her career to avoid Seles while the youngster was about to enter her best years 1993-1995. If it wasn't for the back stabbing nobody would talk about Graf being the women's GOAT as she was beaten repeatedly over and over again on every surface (with the exception of grass) by a teenager. That's why I never appreciate Graf's post-1993 achievements as they never should've happened. The fact that Graf is mentioned in the same boat as Federer is a joke. Not only for the stabbing and the fluke post-1993 wins but for many other reasons.

TMF
06-16-2011, 11:22 AM
First of all I got banned for 1 day because of a stupid thread, not because I insult everyone around. Moreover, only a maniac would want someone to get stabbed in the back for whatever reason.

Were you the only one who got suspended for 1 day? Or was the other poster(s) that was involved with during that time you got suspended too?

Sharpshooter
06-16-2011, 11:25 AM
Obviously I'd like Federer to win more but not at the cost of someone's stabbing. Get a life already.

I put a smiley because I think Graf was superlucky in her career to avoid Seles while the youngster was about to enter her best years 1993-1995. If it wasn't for the back stabbing nobody would talk about Graf being the women's GOAT as she was beaten repeatedly over and over again on every surface (with the exception of grass) by a teenager. That's why I never appreciate Graf's post-1993 achievements as they never should've happened. The fact that Graf is mentioned in the same boat as Federer is a joke. Not only for the stabbing and the fluke post-1993 wins but for many other reasons.

Look, the stabbing shouldn't be talked about anymore. The fact that you're back pedalling shows that you understand what you said was wrong.

I hope you learn from it.

Joe Pike
06-16-2011, 11:29 AM
This photo says it all: Federer clearly in awe of Kobe, who's ignoring him to shake hands with Sampras.

http://crackbillionair.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/fedkobe.jpg?w=473&h=325

Without a doubt, Kobe would have ditched them both in a heartbeat just to shake hands with Steffi. ;)


But who is this "Kobe" guy?
I don't think Steffi would know either.

Sharpshooter
06-16-2011, 11:30 AM
Were you the only one who got suspended for 1 day? Or was the other poster(s) that was involved with during that time you got suspended too?

Nope. I didn't get suspended because I retaliated the name calling after he started calling me names in the first place.

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 11:30 AM
Look, the stabbing shouldn't be talked about anymore. The fact that you're back pedalling shows that you understand what you said was wrong.

I hope you learn from it.

Wot? If there is a similar thread I'm going to post the same stuff if I feel like it. You thought that I'd have pleasure watching Nadal go down being stabbed my someone else and I disagreed.

I don't have to LEARN that, I did my homework when I was 3 years old.

Joe Pike
06-16-2011, 11:32 AM
This.

I'm not generally a fan of asterisks and hypotheticals, but Steffi (and Monica's) career resumes need them IMO.

Steffi was a great, great player, no doubt. But for one of her fan base to physically attack (and mentally destroy) her main rival in that rival's prime just puts a cloud over everything achieved after that.

It was for me the saddest incident and low point of this sport. It wasn't Steffi' s fault but it does affect her legacy.


Seles won her slams only because Steffi's family was blackmailed.
Plus Steffi would have won many, many more slams if it weren't for her career-ending knee injury in 1997.

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 11:32 AM
Were you the only one who got suspended for 1 day? Or was the other poster(s) that was involved with during that time you got suspended too?

I don't follow every other account but to be fair with you, I don't think there was anyone else. I got suspended for a dumb thread, not for insulting others (and being insulted in reply in the process).

Sharpshooter
06-16-2011, 11:32 AM
Wot? If there is a similar thread I'm going to post the same stuff if I feel like it. You thought that I'd have pleasure watching Nadal go down being stabbed my someone else and I disagreed.

I don't have to LEARN that, I did my homework when I was 3 years old.

I'd say it's time you revised your studies.

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 11:34 AM
I'd say it's time you revised your studies.

I think it's time to get off my a** already.

Joe Pike
06-16-2011, 11:36 AM
Obviously I'd like Federer to win more but not at the cost of someone's stabbing. Get a life already.

I put a smiley because I think Graf was superlucky in her career to avoid Seles while the youngster was about to enter her best years 1993-1995. If it wasn't for the back stabbing nobody would talk about Graf being the women's GOAT as she was beaten repeatedly over and over again on every surface (with the exception of grass) by a teenager. ...


On which surfaces did Seles beat Steffi "repeatedly over and over again"?

I mean in real life, not in your wet dreams?

Sharpshooter
06-16-2011, 11:37 AM
I think it's time to get off my a** already.

Oh dw I'm far from it. I don't single you out.

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 11:39 AM
On which surfaces did Seles beat Steffi "repeatedly over and over again"?

I mean in real life, not in your wet dreams?

hard courts and clay 1990-1993, you can well check the h2h

that includes a 3-1 in Slams (twice at the FO and once at the AO)

TMF
06-16-2011, 11:39 AM
I don't follow every other account but to be fair with you, I don't think there was anyone else. I got suspended for a dumb thread, not for insulting others (and being insulted in reply in the process).

If it's true that you were the only one got suspended then that isn't fair.

But it isn't that bad since it's only one day, some other posters was sentenced between 7-10 days.

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 12:29 PM
If it's true that you were the only one got suspended then that isn't fair.

But it isn't that bad since it's only one day, some other posters was sentenced between 7-10 days.

Actually the thread that made me suspended was pretty funny. The title was "are 90 % of Nadal fans female?", I'd consider reposting it if there wasn't risk of being rebanned :D

Joe Pike
06-16-2011, 12:43 PM
hard courts and clay 1990-1993, you can well check the h2h

that includes a 3-1 in Slams (twice at the FO and once at the AO)


What, Seles beat Steffi on hardcourts "repeatedly again and again"?
Are you nuts??

TheNatural
06-16-2011, 12:52 PM
Obviously I'd like Federer to win more but not at the cost of someone's stabbing. Get a life already.

I put a smiley because I think Graf was superlucky in her career to avoid Seles while the youngster was about to enter her best years 1993-1995. If it wasn't for the back stabbing nobody would talk about Graf being the women's GOAT as she was beaten repeatedly over and over again on every surface (with the exception of grass) by a teenager. That's why I never appreciate Graf's post-1993 achievements as they never should've happened. The fact that Graf is mentioned in the same boat as Federer is a joke. Not only for the stabbing and the fluke post-1993 wins but for many other reasons.

Thats speculation, we dont know if she would have entered her best years.After early success, people thought Hingis was going to dominate for 10 years, and that her 'best years' were about to come. As I said speculation.

We could say Seles and others were lucky that Graf slumped when her father had personal issues and then was jailed or when Graf's injuries abruptly stopped her later in her career while she was winning 3 slams per year.

ibbi
06-16-2011, 01:29 PM
Steffi Graf is the greatest tennis player of all time. If there is an argument that can be made against her, it's not really one that can be made in the favour of Roger Federer.

She is the only person in history that has won all 4 of the slams on 4 different occasions.

She did that, unlike everyone who accomplished it before her, on 4 different surfaces.

She won all 4 in the same year - nobody has done that on all the different surfaces. She won 3 out of 4 on 4 OTHER occasions.

She did the mighty Roland Garros/Wimbledon back-to-back 4 times. No man has ever done that, only Helen Wills-Moody has equaled it, only Lenglen has beaten it, and that was in a whole other age.

Her first and last slam stretched across 13 years, that's 3 different generations of tennis players that she competed with at the highest level.

There's this myth that Seles had her number or something, but the truth is, in the two years that Seles established herself as a force on something other than clay, Graf had all manner of problems, and Monica was only one minor one. It wasn't Seles that knocked her out of all those slams in 91 and 92, she dealt with injuries, with illness, with all kinds of crap.

Yes, she wasn't playing well, she had a couple of down years, and yet during those two down years she still was 3-2 up in her head to head with Seles, and she beat her on all 3 different surfaces.

People will say their overall head to head is unreliable because Monica was still a rookie early on in their rivalry, and she was never the same after she came back in 95, so let's take the period between Roland Garros 1990, and the Australian Open in 93...they're tied 3-3, and again, Steffi won on hard, grass, and clay. She had the ability to push Seles all the way (and beat her) on Monica's favourite surface, the same could not be said the other way around.

It is a record you could say is skewered because...like with Federer and Nadal, Graf always had the ability to meet Seles on her favourite surface, while it barely happened the other way around, but unlike Federer and Nadal, and contrary to the myth...Seles didn't dominate her opponent on her favourite surface.

People will also say Seles wasn't the same after she came back, but she still played 4 slam finals, and guess who beat her in two of them?

The idea that Seles was beginning to eclipse Graf is a myth built on a number of things, but not on the very simplest, purest thing - that Seles was burying her rival on the court. People compare the rivalry to Federer-Nadal, it's really nothing like it on any real level.

Joe Pike
06-16-2011, 01:35 PM
Steffi Graf is the greatest tennis player of all time. If there is an argument that can be made against her, it's not really one that can be made in the favour of Roger Federer.

She is the only person in history that has won all 4 of the slams on 4 different occasions.

She did that, unlike everyone who accomplished it before her, on 4 different surfaces.

She won all 4 in the same year - nobody has done that on all the different surfaces. ...

Even better - she won FO, Wimbledon AND USO in the same year 4 times.
In 1988, 1993, 1995 and 1996.
That is a record which is unassailable.

MichaelNadal
06-16-2011, 01:36 PM
Let's check the stats

Majors
Graf-22 majors in 56 attempts=39.3%
Federer-16 majors in 48 attempts=33.3%

Tournaments won
Graf-107 tournaments out of 223 played=48.0%
Federer-67 tournaments won out of 240 played=27.9%

Lifetime winning percentage
Graf-88.7%
Federer-81.0%

There's really no discussion to be had here. Especially since the 16>10 argument has been used as the end all be all. Ok then, 22>>16

pc1
06-16-2011, 01:43 PM
Graf should get extra credit for the Calendar Year Grand Slam in 1988 also.

nikdom
06-16-2011, 01:49 PM
Graf should get credit for winning with a pair of boobs. I would have a hard time running around with weights hanging off my chest.

TennisBatman
06-16-2011, 01:51 PM
Graf shouldn't have married Agassi and should have saved herself for Federer instead.

nikdom
06-16-2011, 01:53 PM
Graf shouldn't have married Agassi and should have saved herself for Federer instead.

Federer shouldn't have married and saved himself for Georges instead.

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 01:59 PM
Federer shouldn't have married and saved himself for Georges instead.

damn, what a pair that would be

powerangle
06-16-2011, 02:00 PM
I guess by default I choose Graf. I dont think either is a worthy GOAT though. Atleast 3 others per gender superior to both IMHO.

But there aren't three others per gender that are undisputably/clearly greater than Graf and Federer, respectively.

zagor
06-16-2011, 02:05 PM
There's really no discussion to be had here. Especially since the 16>10 argument has been used as the end all be all. Ok then, 22>>16

Actually while I'd pick Graf(despite Seles situation)there is a discussion to be had here as Fed and Graf can't be subjected to completely same standards given the difference between WTA and ATP,for starters slams are best of five in ATP which clearly puts them in another league towards masters series tournaments,not so for WTA.

I mean let's see-Graf has 22 slams,Navratilova 18(if we're talking about single slams),Evert 18 etc. while if we look at open era in men's tennis we have Sampras at 14 and Fed at 16,pretty poor compared to the ladies,right? Is it safe to conclude then that it is comparatively easier to dominate WTA than ATP?

zagor
06-16-2011, 02:07 PM
Let's check the stats

Majors
Graf-22 majors in 56 attempts=39.3%
Federer-16 majors in 48 attempts=33.3%

Tournaments won
Graf-107 tournaments out of 223 played=48.0%
Federer-67 tournaments won out of 240 played=27.9%

Lifetime winning percentage
Graf-88.7%
Federer-81.0%

Right because it's just as easy as that,not that comparing WTA and ATP is like comparing apples and oranges or anything.

zagor
06-16-2011, 02:13 PM
People will also say Seles wasn't the same after she came back.

Yes they will and rightly so,most players wouldn't be the same after suffering such a trauma on court.I'll leave it at that as this is one topic I'd get too emotional too quickly,especially with creeps like Joe Pike around.

Joe Pike
06-16-2011, 02:45 PM
Federer shouldn't have married and saved himself for Georges instead.

Georges - this girl from the country of Graff, Keifer, Hass, Kohlshrieber, Stitch?

Joe Pike
06-16-2011, 02:48 PM
Actually while I'd pick Graf(despite Seles situation)there is a discussion to be had here as Fed and Graf can't be subjected to completely same standards given the difference between WTA and ATP,for starters slams are best of five in ATP which clearly puts them in another league towards masters series tournaments,not so for WTA.

I mean let's see-Graf has 22 slams,Navratilova 18(if we're talking about single slams),Evert 18 etc. while if we look at open era in men's tennis we have Sampras at 14 and Fed at 16,pretty poor compared to the ladies,right? Is it safe to conclude then that it is comparatively easier to dominate WTA than ATP?

But it is easier to win a slam on the ATP tour as there are more male slam winners than female ones in the open era.

Joe Pike
06-16-2011, 02:52 PM
Yes they will and rightly so,most players wouldn't be the same after suffering such a trauma on court.I'll leave it at that as this is one topic I'd get too emotional too quickly,especially with creeps like Joe Pike around.

So you are a fan of the theory that having to watch your dad die from cancer is not as bad as the "trauma" of a stab wound which needed one stitch to close?
That's fascinating!

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 02:58 PM
So you are a fan of the theory that having to watch your dad die from cancer is not as bad as the "trauma" of a stab wound which needed one stitch to close?
That's fascinating!

If it was why wasn't she out for 3 full years like Seles, wasting tons of chances to win more Slams?

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 03:13 PM
You guys are all seemingly forgetting a player that easily surpasses Graf on even his worst day - Rafa. The man's already earned himself the GOAT, and soon he'll earn the title of the UGOAT (Unsurpassable Greatest of All Time).

Why do only Nadal fans come up with the most idiotic nicknames on TW? How do you wanna be treated seriously with a name like "beastly Nadal"?

THUNDERVOLLEY
06-16-2011, 04:24 PM
I put a smiley because I think Graf was superlucky in her career to avoid Seles while the youngster was about to enter her best years 1993-1995. If it wasn't for the back stabbing nobody would talk about Graf being the women's GOAT as she was beaten repeatedly over and over again on every surface (with the exception of grass) by a teenager. That's why I never appreciate Graf's post-1993 achievements as they never should've happened. The fact that Graf is mentioned in the same boat as Federer is a joke. Not only for the stabbing and the fluke post-1993 wins but for many other reasons.

Come on. Graf reached the GOAT platform when she won the Grand Slam. Further, Seles at the height of her skills was never a true threat to Graf at Wimbledon, so that critical major was not going to be the route Seles would use to topple Graf. Seles had a "B" level ability for that surface at best.

Sid_Vicious
06-16-2011, 04:27 PM
voted for Roger for the lulz.

FanOfLu
06-16-2011, 05:01 PM
An alleged rapist???

tennis_pro
06-16-2011, 07:06 PM
Is it really that wrong of me to create a username that implies the truth?

You can use whichever dumb name you want, just know that everybody treats you as a troll from the moment you post your first comment. And very rightly so.

Sneezy
06-16-2011, 07:57 PM
Why do only Nadal fans come up with the most idiotic nicknames on TW? How do you wanna be treated seriously with a name like "beastly Nadal"?

At least its not vulgar.

Joe Pike
06-16-2011, 11:04 PM
If it was why wasn't she out for 3 full years like Seles, wasting tons of chances to win more Slams?

Whom do you mean with "she"?

It was Seles's dad who died from cancer in 1993-98.

Joe Pike
06-16-2011, 11:05 PM
Why do only Nadal fans come up with the most idiotic nicknames on TW? How do you wanna be treated seriously with a name like "beastly Nadal"?

Leave these kids alone!

Smasher08
06-17-2011, 02:45 AM
But who is this "Kobe" guy?
I don't think Steffi would know either.

Kobe's a Dutch indoor track star (pronounced "koh-buh") who's really big among the West Coast tax and spend liberal establishment, and has recorded several platinum-selling techno-pop singles in Germany.

'Parently he's bigger than the Hoff over there.

lonux
06-17-2011, 04:43 AM
You guys are all seemingly forgetting a player that easily surpasses Graf on even his worst day - Rafa. The man's already earned himself the GOAT, and soon he'll earn the title of the UGOAT (Unsurpassable Greatest of All Time).

I thought you said he was the Ugliest Geek Of All Times already? :confused:

TheTruth
06-17-2011, 04:48 AM
This.

I'm not generally a fan of asterisks and hypotheticals, but Steffi (and Monica's) career resumes need them IMO.

Steffi was a great, great player, no doubt. But for one of her fan base to physically attack (and mentally destroy) her main rival in that rival's prime just puts a cloud over everything achieved after that.

It was for me the saddest incident and low point of this sport. It wasn't Steffi' s fault but it does affect her legacy.

Yeah, especially this part. It almost seems like default, since we'll never know what could have been.

Joe Pike
06-17-2011, 10:03 AM
Yeah, especially this part. It almost seems like default, since we'll never know what could have been.


And we'll never know what would have been
1) if Graf's family hadn't been blackmailed in the early 90s,
2) if Graf's knee had not fallen apart in 1997,
3) and if Seles had to cope only with her father dying from cancer in 93-98 and not additionally with nightmares about the 93 stabbing incident.

Dedans Penthouse
06-17-2011, 01:01 PM
Yes they will and rightly so,most players wouldn't be the same after suffering such a trauma on court.I'll leave it at that as this is one topic I'd get too emotional too quickly,especially with creeps like Joe Pike around.
^^^^

he said it--not me. ......ROTFL



http://d2.img.v4.skyrock.net/d22/maxime1-3/pics/1234615550.jpg

ksbh
06-17-2011, 01:14 PM
Dedans ... brilliant signature- The hot dog is the noblest of dogs....it feeds the hand that bites it. ROFL cube! :)

CCNM
06-17-2011, 01:21 PM
Definitely Steffi. Winning all 4 grand slam titles in the same year PLUS an Olympic gold medal......

jackson vile
06-17-2011, 01:33 PM
LOL, and boys die hard LOL I find it funny because the same criteria that ****s use to claim Ronald GOAT, Graf destroys Federer up one side and another.

Graf represents everything Federer was not able to do and dwarfs him in accomplishments yet they still vote Federer!

Joe Pike
06-17-2011, 01:39 PM
Definitely Steffi. Winning all 4 grand slam titles in the same year PLUS an Olympic gold medal......

Wimbledon: Graf 7, Federer 5
French Open: Graf 6, Federer 1
US Open: Graf 5, Federer 5
Australian Open: Graf 4, Federer 5
YEC: Graf 5, Federer 5
Olympic Gold: Graf 1, Federer 0
Grand Slams: Graf 1, Federer 0
Fed/Davis Cups: Graf 2, Federer 0
tournament wins: Graf 107, Federer 67
career winning percentage: Graf 89, Federer 81
Year-end #1: Graf 8 times, Federer 5 times


So Feddy has won more AOs than Graf.
But else?

Joe Pike
06-17-2011, 01:40 PM
LOL, and boys die hard LOL I find it funny because the same criteria that ****s use to claim Ronald GOAT, Graf destroys Federer up one side and another.

Graf represents everything Federer was not able to do and dwarfs him in accomplishments yet they still vote Federer!


All these Navratilova, Seles, Serena fanboys vote for Federer - the only explanation, IMO.

tennis_pro
06-17-2011, 01:43 PM
All these Navratilova, Seles, Serena fanboys vote for Federer - the only explanation, IMO.

And look who voted for Graf.

BrooklynNY, Bud, Cesc Fabregas, Clay lover, jackson vile, Joe Pike, MichaelNadal, NadalAgassi, rafabull, Sharpshooter, TheNatural, THUNDERVOLLEY

LOL

Make a poll comparing who's better Nadal in the ATP or Graf in the WTA and I bet all the above mentioned will vote for Nadal. I don't blame them, though. Even tho I personally think Graf achieved way more than Federer I still voted for Fed.

Bud
06-17-2011, 01:52 PM
LOL, and boys die hard LOL I find it funny because the same criteria that ****s use to claim Ronald GOAT, Graf destroys Federer up one side and another.

Graf represents everything Federer was not able to do and dwarfs him in accomplishments yet they still vote Federer!

Wimbledon: Graf 7, Federer 5
French Open: Graf 6, Federer 1
US Open: Graf 5, Federer 5
Australian Open: Graf 4, Federer 5
YEC: Graf 5, Federer 5
Olympic Gold: Graf 1, Federer 0
Grand Slams: Graf 1, Federer 0
Fed/Davis Cups: Graf 2, Federer 0
tournament wins: Graf 107, Federer 67
career winning percentage: Graf 89, Federer 81
Year-end #1: Graf 8 times, Federer 5 times


So Feddy has won more AOs than Graf.
But else?

It's not even close :)

tennis_pro
06-17-2011, 01:57 PM
Wimbledon: Graf 7, Federer 5
French Open: Graf 6, Federer 1
US Open: Graf 5, Federer 5
Australian Open: Graf 4, Federer 5
YEC: Graf 5, Federer 5
Olympic Gold: Graf 1, Federer 0
Grand Slams: Graf 1, Federer 0
Fed/Davis Cups: Graf 2, Federer 0
tournament wins: Graf 107, Federer 67
career winning percentage: Graf 89, Federer 81
Year-end #1: Graf 8 times, Federer 5 times


So Feddy has won more AOs than Graf.
But else?

Federer is still playing, that's the biggest difference.

NadalAgassi
06-17-2011, 02:34 PM
One advantage Graf has over Federer is that she is nobodies lapdog the way Federer is Nadal's.

Graf would never lose a slam final 6-1, 6-3, 6-0 to someone, nor would she have a 8-17 record vs someone, nor lose a slam final on her favorite surface vs a main rival on their worst. Just wouldnt happen and never did. You can talk about Seles if you wish but Seles's easiest slam final over Graf was 7-6, 6-4 and when she confronted Graf on Graf's favorite surface and Seles's worst in a slam final she won only 3 games.

Everytime Graf stepped on court vs Navratilova or Seles, or anyone else, she expected to win and was very upset and self critical when she didnt win. When Federer steps on court with Nadal he expects to lose, and is relived and giddy with relief the rare times he does win.

TMF
06-17-2011, 03:18 PM
The comparison is stupid. Women sport doesn't equate to men sport. Next thing is the OP wants to compare WNBA to the NBA. Crazy !

It makes more sense if it's a Graf vs Martina or Fed vs Laver. I don't know how you guys can get so involve with such an epic fail thread.

lendledbergfan
06-17-2011, 03:50 PM
http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm24/lambfreack/sunnydeol-2b-1_1186980358.jpg

Nah....I think in two-and-a-half sets :D

zagor
06-18-2011, 06:02 AM
^^^^

he said it--not me. ......ROTFL



http://d2.img.v4.skyrock.net/d22/maxime1-3/pics/1234615550.jpg

Yeah,well his posts just have a certain vibe to them,they remind me of a song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBwbJWF8_-Q

Especially the 2:05 onward part.

Joe Pike
06-18-2011, 06:30 AM
Yeah,well his posts just have a certain vibe to them,they remind me of a song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBwbJWF8_-Q

Especially the 2:05 onward part.


And STILL no Serb player has won a slam after his or her 24th birthday.

While the Rhine valley is the home of the GOATs ...
:)

zagor
06-18-2011, 06:45 AM
And STILL no Serb player has won a slam after his or her 24th birthday.

While the Rhine valley is the home of the GOATs ...
:)

So? Sure I'm glad if some of my countrymen do well,especially if I like their game(like in Novak's case)but really my favourite ATP player of all time is Swiss and WTA player is Belgian.

Oh and I don't really give a rat's ***** about GOAT debate either.

The fact that you presume that this has got to do with nationality says a lot more about you than it does about me.

Joe Pike
06-18-2011, 06:49 AM
So? Sure I'm glad if some of my countrymen do well,especially if I like their game(like in Novak's case)but really my favourite ATP player of all time is Swiss and WTA player is Belgian.

Oh and I don't really give a rat's ***** about GOAT debate either.

The fact that you presume that this has got to do with nationality says a lot more about you than it does about me.


I just remember all the death threats against Steffi from Serbia in the wake of the Seles stabbing. And Serbia in the 90s was a bad place.
Maybe it has changed ...

Sharpshooter
06-18-2011, 06:57 AM
Wimbledon: Graf 7, Federer 5
French Open: Graf 6, Federer 1
US Open: Graf 5, Federer 5
Australian Open: Graf 4, Federer 5
YEC: Graf 5, Federer 5
Olympic Gold: Graf 1, Federer 0
Grand Slams: Graf 1, Federer 0
Fed/Davis Cups: Graf 2, Federer 0
tournament wins: Graf 107, Federer 67
career winning percentage: Graf 89, Federer 81
Year-end #1: Graf 8 times, Federer 5 times


So Feddy has won more AOs than Graf.
But else?

Actually Feddy has 4 AO's.

6 WIM, 5 USO, 4AO, 1 FO = 16

So he doesn't even have her in that category either.

Joe Pike
06-18-2011, 07:03 AM
Actually Feddy has 4 AO's.

6 WIM, 5 USO, 4AO, 1 FO = 16

So he doesn't even have her in that category either.


Oops, you are right of course!

Manus Domini
06-18-2011, 07:49 AM
there are more GOATs for the men's side than women's, so Graf.

In no particular order:

Mens: Laver, Rosewall, Pancho Gonzales, Federer, Nadal, Budge, Tilden, Sampras, Borg, etc.

Womens: Lenglen, Moody, Graf, Navritalova (sp?), Serena, Wozniacki (oh, wait...), Seles, (any others?)

Manus Domini
06-18-2011, 07:50 AM
Wimbledon: Graf 7, Federer 5
French Open: Graf 6, Federer 1
US Open: Graf 5, Federer 5
Australian Open: Graf 4, Federer 5
YEC: Graf 5, Federer 5
Olympic Gold: Graf 1, Federer 0
Grand Slams: Graf 1, Federer 0
Fed/Davis Cups: Graf 2, Federer 0
tournament wins: Graf 107, Federer 67
career winning percentage: Graf 89, Federer 81
Year-end #1: Graf 8 times, Federer 5 times


So Feddy has won more AOs than Graf.
But else?

Injured main rival: Graf 1, Federer 1 (2009)

they're even even there o.0

zagor
06-18-2011, 12:57 PM
I just remember all the death threats against Steffi from Serbia in the wake of the Seles stabbing.

Indeed,I wonder if she feared those more than love(stalker)letters "Steffi we're soul mates!" type(I'd hazard to guess know something about those?).

And Serbia in the 90s was a bad place.
Maybe it has changed ...

Yes,it's still a dreadful place,I thank and praise the mighty Lord every month I scrape enough to pay my internet bills so I can frequent forums such as these.

Agassifan
06-18-2011, 02:19 PM
Unbelievable...you actually selected Federer as the prime candidate for the GOAT in place of Rafa, the widely accepted GOAT? Do you live in a rock?

Federer pales in comparison to the great Rafa, even though he has more GS titles. The difference between the two is that Federer garnered his GS' in a horribly weak era, while Rafa is playing against Federer, Nole, and Murray, who are all worthy contenders for multiple GS titles. Rafa is the GOAT, and in the near future, I'm confident that he'll solidify his spot as the UGOAT (Unsurpassable Greatest of All Time).

LOL ... get a life.

NadalAgassi
06-18-2011, 03:38 PM
While I believe Graf is a stronger GOAT candidate than Federer, I frankly cant see either as the GOAT.

Graf has a 9-9 head to head vs Navratilova who is 13 years older than her. And most damning is the U.S Open head to head which is 4-1 Navratiova. This is the most neutral place for them to meet and Martina owns her. Graf was in her prime for 3 of those 5 matches while Navratilova was not and Martina still owns, and the one win Graf had she was down 6-3, 4-2. How does one explain this and still say Graf is better.

Chris Evert meanwhile would have about 25 slams if she played the French and Australian each year. And without Martina on top of that probably about 35.

Court has 24 slams in singles plus so many more in doubles.

So Graf isnt as strong as those 3.

kOaMaster
06-18-2011, 03:41 PM
Yes,it's still a dreadful place,I thank and praise the mighty Lord every month I scrape enough to pay my internet bills so I can frequent forums such as these.

what, you've got internet over there?

no seriously, some people are just too biased.

Joe Pike
06-18-2011, 04:00 PM
While I believe Graf is a stronger GOAT candidate than Federer, I frankly cant see either as the GOAT.

Graf has a 9-9 head to head vs Navratilova who is 13 years older than her. And most damning is the U.S Open head to head which is 4-1 Navratiova. This is the most neutral place for them to meet and Martina owns her. Graf was in her prime for 3 of those 5 matches while Navratilova was not and Martina still owns, and the one win Graf had she was down 6-3, 4-2. ...


If Steffi had been born in the same year as Navratilova she would have rag-dolled Navi until their 25th birthday in 1981. In 1984 Steffi would have had reconstructive knee surgery and in 1986 she would have returned to win the FO. Taken all together she would lead Navi with 30-10 or so H2H.

BTW, Navratilova had luck that she played Steffi on fast courts in 16 of 18 matches. Only 2 on clay, not even once on slow ReboundAce.
Had they played in 9 matches on slow and on 9 matches on fast courts Steffi would have won about 14 of those 18 matches.

Joe Pike
06-18-2011, 04:01 PM
what, you've got internet over there?

no seriously, some people are just too biased.



There are polls that about 50 % of Serbs still think Ratko Mladic is a hero ...

NadalAgassi
06-18-2011, 06:05 PM
If Steffi had been born in the same year as Navratilova she would have rag-dolled Navi until their 25th birthday in 1981. In 1984 Steffi would have had reconstructive knee surgery and in 1986 she would have returned to win the FO. Taken all together she would lead Navi with 30-10 or so H2H.

BTW, Navratilova had luck that she played Steffi on fast courts in 16 of 18 matches. Only 2 on clay, not even once on slow ReboundAce.
Had they played in 9 matches on slow and on 9 matches on fast courts Steffi would have won about 14 of those 18 matches.

All that being said how do you explain the U.S Open head to head. The U.S Open is their most neutral meeting place. Grass and carpet favors Navratilova, rebound ace and clay favors Graf, just the oppositie of the Graf-Seles matchup. So the U.S open is an even meeting ground. Yet in 5 meetings with Graf in her prime for 3 of the 5- 1987, 1989, and 1991, and Martina for only 2- 1985 and 1986, Graf trails 4-1, and even was down 6-3, 4-1 in her only win. Naturally you have to admit Navratilova would have the edge at the U.S Open with both in their primes, and if she had the edge there she automatically would at Wimbeldon and the WTA Championships where the surfaces more clearly favor her than the U.S Open. Leaving Graf only having the possible edge at the French and at the Australian while on rebound ace, but even then only in Grafs era since in Navratilovas the Australian was on grass.

LDVTennis
06-18-2011, 07:57 PM
Leaving Graf only having the possible edge at the French and at the Australian while on rebound ace, but even then only in Grafs era since in Navratilovas the Australian was on grass.

More of your stupid inconsistencies.

You begin with an actual, but misleading, head to head on a given surface, 4-1 on hard (US Open only). And, you conclude with a hypothetical one, Navratilova having an edge on Graf on grass.

Only in your imagination. The actual head to head on grass is 2-1, in Graf's favor.

On clay, 2-0 in Graf's favor.
Indoors, 3-3 .

As to their record on hard courts, 3 of the 5 Graf losses happened before 1987. Excluding those, it is 2-2.

They never played on rebound ace.

When it counted, Graf has an edge on 2 out of 4 surfaces, including Martina's favorite surface (grass). When it counted, Martina has an edge on none of the surfaces.

NadalAgassi
06-18-2011, 08:08 PM
All 3 of their matches at Wimbledon were when Martina was in her 30s and Graf was at her career peak. So hardly reflective of anything in Grafs favor in their hypothetical primes. A 7 time Wimbledon winner at her peak should have a winning record vs a 9 time Wimbledon winner in her 30s at Wimbledon. If she doesnt there is a major problem.

The U.S Open head to head being 4-1 in Grafs favor is quite shocking and telling though. Since:

1. It is the most neutral surface for the two to play on, which grass and carpet favoring Martina, and clay and rebound ace Steffi. And it was Joe Pike who began the fastest courts favoring Martina slant, not me. I just went along with HIS reasoning as to be fair to Steffi, thus choosing the most neutral surface possible.

2. 3 of the 5 match were when Steffi was in her prime and Martina was not (87, 89, and 91). Yet Martina still has won almost every match, and had a big lead even in the one she lost. And even if you want to milk Steffis slump in 91, that is still no way as big a disadvantage as being 34 years old in pro tennis.

I would like to see someone even try to explain how they think a prime Steffi would be superior to a prime Martina when on the most neutral surface for them to play on, with more matches in Steffis prime than Martinas, Martina owns Steffi so absolutely.


And you are excluding Grafs losses before 1987, yet including Martinas into even her mid 30s. LOL, seriously. Of course when it counted Martina had a big edge on hard courts. 4-1 in hard court slams and winning the last one at age 34. Not even close.

LDVTennis
06-18-2011, 08:37 PM
All 3 of their matches at Wimbledon were when Martina was in her 30s and Graf was at her career peak.

And, 3 of the 5 losses to Martina on hard courts happened before 1987, before Graf reached her first peak. So, beat that!


1. It is the most neutral surface for the two to play on, which grass and carpet favoring Martina, and clay and rebound ace Steffi.

So, what you are really saying is that on the surface where Martina had an edge she wasn't good enough to beat Steffi most of the times. And, if Martina wasn't good enough on grass, so much for her 9 Wimbledon titles. Those 9 titles aren't worth a lot in the grand scheme of things when you have a losing record on Wimbledon grass not just to anyone, but to Steffi Graf.

I would like to see someone even try to explain how they think a prime Steffi would be superior to a prime Martina when on the most neutral surface for them to play on, with more matches in Steffis prime than Martinas, Martina owns Steffi so absolutely.

More matches in Steffi's prime? So what? Martina did not win a majority of those matches.

Here is the head to head record on hard courts:

1985 US OPEN M.Navratilova 6-2 6-3
1985 FT. LAUDERDALE M.Navratilova 6-3 6-1 [Before prime]
1986 US OPENHARD M.Navratilova 6-1 6-7(3) 7-6(8) [Before prime]

[B]1987 MIAMI Graf 6-3 6-2 [Steffi's prime]
1987 US OPEN M.Navratilova 7-6(4) 6-1 [prime]
1989 US OPEN Graf 3-6 7-5 6-1 [prime]

1991 US OPEN M.Navratilova7-6(2) 6-7(6) 6-4 [After prime]*


By 1990 or so, Steffi was no longer in her prime, but I will count that match so as not to enter into a protracted debate with you over Steffi's slump.

That's four matches. The head to head is 2-2.

So, while the majority of the matches they played on hard courts did take place during or after Steffi's prime, Martina DID NOT WIN a majority of those matches. So, what have you proven? NOTHING.

NadalAgassi
06-18-2011, 08:50 PM
So you have shown Martina past her prime is 2-2 vs a prime Steffi on hard courts, and 2-1 at the U.S Open. By contrast a pre prime Steffi could never beat a prime Martina on hard courts. So how could one imagine a prime Steffi ever having an edge over prime Martina on hard courts. And if she doesnt on hard courts who would ever assume she would on grass or carpet either (as I already mentioned the actual grass head to head you refer to was also Martina past her prime and Steffi in hers so proves nothing in Steffis favor in their hypothetical primes).

Joe Pike
06-18-2011, 11:18 PM
All 3 of their matches at Wimbledon were when Martina was in her 30s and Graf was at her career peak. So hardly reflective of anything in Grafs favor in their hypothetical primes. A 7 time Wimbledon winner at her peak should have a winning record vs a 9 time Wimbledon winner in her 30s at Wimbledon. If she doesnt there is a major problem.

The U.S Open head to head being 4-1 in Grafs favor is quite shocking ...

When Graf lost her first match to Navratilova she was 16 years and 2 month old. She had won zero Wta titles up to then. A truly shocking loss.

When Graf lost her second match she was 17 years and 2 months old. Until then she had never made a slam final. Yet shockingly she lost with 6-7 in the third set against 29-year-old Navratilova.

When Graf lost her third match in 1987 she was 18 years and 2 months old, had just won one slam - and was visibly ill.

Joe Pike
06-18-2011, 11:26 PM
So you have shown Martina past her prime is 2-2 vs a prime Steffi on hard courts, and 2-1 at the U.S Open. By contrast a pre prime Steffi could never beat a prime Martina on hard courts. So how could one imagine a prime Steffi ever having an edge over prime Martina on hard courts. And if she doesnt on hard courts who would ever assume she would on grass or carpet either (as I already mentioned the actual grass head to head you refer to was also Martina past her prime and Steffi in hers so proves nothing in Steffis favor in their hypothetical primes).

When was Navratilova's grass prime?
When she was 23-27 years old and lost grass-court matches against Evert (3 times), 34-year-old Betty Stoeve, Wendy Turnbull, Pam Shriver (36 46), Betsy Nagelsen, Andrea Jaeger and Helena Sukova?

Wow, Steffi really dodged a bullet there ...

Joe Pike
06-18-2011, 11:44 PM
So you have shown Martina past her prime is 2-2 vs a prime Steffi on hard courts, and 2-1 at the U.S Open. By contrast a pre prime Steffi could never beat a prime Martina on hard courts. So how could one imagine a prime Steffi ever having an edge over prime Martina on hard courts. And if she doesnt on hard courts who would ever assume she would on grass or carpet either (as I already mentioned the actual grass head to head you refer to was also Martina past her prime and Steffi in hers so proves nothing in Steffis favor in their hypothetical primes).

In 1989 Navratilova had the 6th best winning percentage of her career. But lost in 3 major finals to Graf.

In 1991 when she lost to Navratilova with 4-6 in the third set of the USO semis Steffi had only her 11th (!) best winning percentage of her career.

So obviously - even for ******s like you - Navi was in her prime in 1989 and Steffi wasn't in 1991.

NadalAgassi
06-19-2011, 12:32 AM
When Graf lost her first match to Navratilova she was 16 years and 2 month old. She had won zero Wta titles up to then. A truly shocking loss.

When Graf lost her second match she was 17 years and 2 months old. Until then she had never made a slam final. Yet shockingly she lost with 6-7 in the third set against 29-year-old Navratilova.

Correct up to now.

When Graf lost her third match in 1987 she was 18 years and 2 months old, had just won one slam - and was visibly ill.

And here is where the fail begins. Graf lost only 2 matches all of 1987 (both to Martina) so quickly abandon any idea this wasnt already prime Graf. By contrast Martina won only 4 of the 12 tournaments she entered in 1988, after being almost unbeatable the previous 5 years. This has little to do with Steffi whom she only lost to in 2 of those 8, also little to do with Evert who was even older than Martina at this point. Obviously Graf was much more prime than Martina yet still got thumped badly by her in the U.S Open final (and Wimbledon final).

We move on to 1989 and while the now clearly peak Graf wins for the only time vs Martina at the Open she finds herself down 6-3, 4-2 to the 32 year old Navratilova, an even worse predicament then 17 year old Graf had prime Martina in in 1986.

Now onto 1991 and Graf loses in 3 sets to a 34 year old Navratilova. What is the excuse for that one. Even the worst slump isnt worse than being 34 years old.

NadalAgassi
06-19-2011, 12:34 AM
When was Navratilova's grass prime?
When she was 23-27 years old and lost grass-court matches against Evert (3 times), 34-year-old Betty Stoeve, Wendy Turnbull, Pam Shriver (36 46), Betsy Nagelsen, Andrea Jaeger and Helena Sukova?

Wow, Steffi really dodged a bullet there ...

Martinas prime was from 1982-1986 of course. And during this period her only losses on grass were to Evert and Sukova, once each.

Graf during her prime lost on grass to 30 year old Navratilova, Zina Garrison, and Lori McNeil. This is with fewer grass court events a year than in Martinas day.

NadalAgassi
06-19-2011, 12:39 AM
In 1989 Navratilova had the 6th best winning percentage of her career. But lost in 3 major finals to Graf.

In 1991 when she lost to Navratilova with 4-6 in the third set of the USO semis Steffi had only her 11th (!) best winning percentage of her career.

So obviously - even for ******s like you - Navi was in her prime in 1989 and Steffi wasn't in 1991.

And in 1991 where exactly was Martina relative to her prime. She was the 6th seed for the 91 U.S Open and had lost to 15 year old Capriati at Wimbledon, a place where even peak Capriati would never make a final. In addition to various losses to Seles or Sabatini she had also lost this year to Leila Meskhi, Natalie Tauziat (1 and 4), Conchita Martinez, and Anke Huber. This while playing a very limited schedule, including only playing 2 of the 4 slams. Yes you are right, 34 year old Martina sure was closer to her prime in 1991 than 22 year old Steffi wasnt she, LOL!

NadalAgassi
06-19-2011, 12:40 AM
When Graf lost her second match she was 17 years and 2 months old. Until then she had never made a slam final. Yet shockingly she lost with 6-7 in the third set against 29-year-old Navratilova.


Also glad you now admit that a 29 year old is much closer to their prime than a 17 year old. Now with that cleared up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJE4vCj155o&playnext=1&list=PL5D2BB86001687440

Joe Pike
06-19-2011, 04:38 AM
Martinas prime was from 1982-1986 of course. And during this period her only losses on grass were to Evert and Sukova, once each.

Graf during her prime lost on grass to 30 year old Navratilova, Zina Garrison, and Lori McNeil. This is with fewer grass court events a year than in Martinas day.


So Navratilova's prime was only five years?
And it ended conveniently when Steffi Graf was 17 and took over women's tennis ... ?
:):):)

Joe Pike
06-19-2011, 04:43 AM
And in 1991 where exactly was Martina relative to her prime. She was the 6th seed for the 91 U.S Open and had lost to 15 year old Capriati at Wimbledon, a place where even peak Capriati would never make a final. In addition to various losses to Seles or Sabatini she had also lost this year to Leila Meskhi, Natalie Tauziat (1 and 4), Conchita Martinez, and Anke Huber. This while playing a very limited schedule, including only playing 2 of the 4 slams. Yes you are right, 34 year old Martina sure was closer to her prime in 1991 than 22 year old Steffi wasnt she, LOL!


1991 was Navratilova's 14th-best year, winning-percentage-wise.
And Steffi's 11th-best.
Navi won a USO semi final match that year with 76 67 64.

And this proves what???

Joe Pike
06-19-2011, 04:46 AM
Also glad you now admit that a 29 year old is much closer to their prime than a 17 year old. Now with that cleared up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJE4vCj155o&playnext=1&list=PL5D2BB86001687440



Yes, Navratilova was closer to her prime at 29 than at 17.
Her prime years were from 25-32.


Serena had one of her best seasons ever in 1999, with 5 titles (only 2002 was better) and a 85.4 winning percentage (only 2002 and 2003 were better) when she narrowly beat Steffi in a tune-up tournament.
A Steffi who had had reconstructive knee surgery, had one of her worst seasons ever, and would retire four months later.

martini1
06-19-2011, 07:27 AM
1988 Graf is the true god mode player. If Fed could do a calendar slam before he retires I would give him the honor.

NadalAgassi
06-19-2011, 11:12 AM
1991 was Navratilova's 14th-best year, winning-percentage-wise.
And Steffi's 11th-best.
Navi won a USO semi final match that year with 76 67 64.

And this proves what???

So you admit Graf was closer to her best than Navratilova at the 91 U.S Open and Navratilova still won on a neutral court. What do you think it proves. Especialy in conjuction with peak Graf being down 6-3, 4-2 to 32 year old Navratilova on the same court 2 years earlier, and #1 ranked Graf being hammered 7-6, 6-1 by 30 year old Navratilova a couple years before that.

NadalAgassi
06-19-2011, 11:14 AM
So Navratilova's prime was only five years?
And it ended conveniently when Steffi Graf was 17 and took over women's tennis ... ?
:):):)

Well according to you Grafs prime was on 88-89 and 93-96 (minus maybe 94). So why are you surprised at only a 5 year prime, that is what you claim Graf had, with the period Graf wasnt dominating, especialy when Seles was #1, conveniently removed.

dominikk1985
06-19-2011, 11:17 AM
both are GOAT:D.

LDVTennis
06-19-2011, 08:56 PM
When was Navratilova's grass prime?
When she was 23-27 years old and lost grass-court matches against Evert (3 times), 34-year-old Betty Stoeve, Wendy Turnbull, Pam Shriver (36 46), Betsy Nagelsen, Andrea Jaeger and Helena Sukova?

Wow, Steffi really dodged a bullet there ...

No wonder Wendy Turnbull voted for Steffi in the AP Poll of the Greatest Player of the 20th Century.

If she could beat Martina on grass, Turnbull must have known Martina wasn't that good, even on grass.

LOL!

LDVTennis
06-19-2011, 09:00 PM
Well according to you Grafs prime was on 88-89 and 93-96 (minus maybe 94). So why are you surprised at only a 5 year prime, that is what you claim Graf had, with the period Graf wasnt dominating, especialy when Seles was #1, conveniently removed.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...

The more you talk the GREATER Graf gets.

NadalAgassi
06-19-2011, 09:09 PM
Funny how losing to Turnbull on grass is supposed to be awful yet losing to McNeil and Garrison on grass is not, LOL!

LDVTennis
06-19-2011, 09:19 PM
Funny how losing to Turnbull on grass is supposed to be awful yet losing to McNeil and Garrison on grass is not, LOL!

Well, it is not your opinion that counts, unless on top of being Davey25 and company you are also Wendy Turnbull.

Turnbull voted for Graf in the AP poll, knowing that she had beaten Martina on grass and that Steffi had lost to McNeil and Garrison on grass.

So, Turnbull must have reckoned, as only she could, that McNeil and Garrison were better grass court players than she was, and, given all that, that there is no way Martina would have won 9 Wimbledon titles if Steffi Graf had been her primary opponent.

DMan
06-19-2011, 10:43 PM
I guess by default I choose Graf. I dont think either is a worthy GOAT though. Atleast 3 others per gender superior to both IMHO.

Oh darlin, you don't say! I mean, really!

DMan
06-19-2011, 10:45 PM
Well according to you Grafs prime was on 88-89 and 93-96 (minus maybe 94). So why are you surprised at only a 5 year prime, that is what you claim Graf had, with the period Graf wasnt dominating, especialy when Seles was #1, conveniently removed.

Darlin, you still talkin Steffi and Mons? Do we need to take this offline, and have a real conversation? I know you can't get enough of me :twisted: :twisted: