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View Full Version : Pacific Classic Gut 1.30 x MSV Co-Focus 1.23


Smasher08
07-10-2011, 02:00 PM
Before:
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Smasher08/1310217792-picsay.jpg

After:
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Smasher08/IMG_20110709_195825.jpg

I've beet trying various poly mains since last October, including Lux, Sonic Pro, Focus Hex, and Turbotwist, and to various degrees have had quite a few arm issues cropping up, mostly minor. And about 5/6 weeks ago I put some string savers into a Turbotwist - Irradiated hybrid which stiffened it up dramatically and my shoulder started killing while serving. Unfortunately since more than a month of using Turbotwist - Spiral Flex (and frequent resting) hasn't gotten me to a point where I feel comfortable serving again, I decided that for whatever reason poly mains weren't for me and I wanted to try the most arm-friendly, spinny combination I could find.

Gut.

I'd tried gut twice before in the past: once in the mid 90s when I was a 3.5 and I really didn't notice anything different or special about it, and once about 2 years ago . . . when a stringer put in some that had way too much give and not nearly enough spin that I had them cut out after 2 hours(!). So thanks to some of the posts here at talk tennis, as well write ups about Fed and Djoker's setups, I was drawn to hybriding gut with poly crosses for spin.

While I was initially leaning towards trying Silverstring crosses, two big shout-outs go to Tennis Warehouse University's string friction rankings (http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/COFreporter.php) and the posts of talk tennis member TimothyO for turning me towards MSV crosses in general and Co-Focus in particular.

I'd wanted to start by trying a budget gut, figuring that if it was arm-friendly enough and at least comparable to Intellitour 17 (my personal reference string that I used for 7/8 years) then I'd be getting something that was good enough for my purposes and it didn't matter that the budget gut didn't perform nearly as well as VS.

I couldn't get a set of budget gut quickly so I found Pacific Classic Gut 16g and pulled the trigger. Had it strung at 51 x 48.


Initial Impressions

My stringer notched it ever so slightly in a few places but nothing that appeared to go through the coating or seemed problematic. Just tapping the stringbed against the palm of my hand was a revelation: no vibrations going through to my racket arm, just proper contact feel.

Felt great.

I hit the court for an hour today doing moderate paced hitting with a friend who's a 3.5. The first 3-4 minutes were weird as it felt slippery and gloopy and biological, like hitting with a jellyfish. The ball pocketing and trampolining were like nothing I'd encountered before since I've used predominantly stiff(ish) feeling strings, and although I didn't notice any special spin being put on like with MSV Focus Hex, I sure noticed that more balls were dropping in and bouncing higher than expected. After 10-15 minutes I'd adjusted enough to it that I began to feel comfortable plowing through my groundies, especially my backhands. A few forays up to the net revealed very comfortable feel and placement, combined with almost effortless power.

On my forehands especially, I noticed that I wasn't feeling any vibrations coming through to my arm anymore so I bit the bullet and tried a couple of serves --- slowly. Even without doing my full second serve motion, I immediately noticed the balls kicking up a good six feet high, about a foot higher than expected. My shoulder still wasn't ready to go full tilt, but this was clearly very promising.

And the strings may still be a few hours away from settling in and hitting their stride.


Specific Impressions

String movement: none
Spin potential: very good to excellent
Power: good to very good
Feel: very good to excellent
Arm-friendliness: outstanding

(Reference string: Intellitour 17g)

I'll be playing at least a couple more times before next weekend with stronger partners who'll really put me through my paces, and I'll update then.

And if anyone has any questions or items they'd like me to include in this review, please by all means ask.

OldButGame
07-10-2011, 05:41 PM
This may not have much relevance,..but i just used MSV Co-Focus in a full bed the other night,....and REALLY liked it!!....(in an AG200,....16L,....48lbs).

WilsonPlayer101
07-10-2011, 08:28 PM
Smasher, thanks for the review and info. How do you think MSV Hepa-Twist would have been in this hybrid instead of Co-Focus. Thanks.

Smasher08
07-16-2011, 07:45 AM
I've never used heptatwist but according to the posts of TimothyO who has, they're made from the same material and the only difference is the texture.

I'd imagine that the hepta might play slightly spinnier at the beginning, but at the expense of sawing through the mains, which won't happen with co-focus.

Smasher08
07-16-2011, 09:24 AM
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Smasher08/IMG_20110716_170920.jpg

Update - 6 hours

Loving how good it is on my arm, but a little mixed feelings about it too.

String movement: none
Fraying: virtually none
Power: excellent
Feel: very good
Arm-friendliness: outstanding
Spin: so-so

I was hitting with a 4.0 friend and he felt that there was a lot less spin than the Turbotwist and Focus Hex hybrids that I've been using over the past 9 months. On regular topspin shots he thought the ball was bouncing up about a foot to a foot and a half less high.

Similar situation when playing a 5.0 friend. He was jumping on more of my shots because they seemed to be bouncing lower, but what compensated for this is that I was better able to take his replies and blow groundies by him.

I can't figure out the spin, or lack thereof. It's definitely not the kind of hard, jump-up, in-your-face spin that you get from textured polys. but at the same time, I can't help but notice all the groundies I'm ripping that look like they're sailing long and suddenly drop in. It must be due to some kind of spin, but I can't seem to put gobs of spin onto the ball. Even when I'm slicing it's not nearly what it was with poly mains.

I am, however, pretty impressed with how the strings seem to reward just ripping your shots. And the longevity seems good too, but I'll be in a better position to start reviewing that after the 10 hour mark

In the meantime I've decided to borrow a page from Fed and put in some string savers to see if they'll help generate the spin I'm missing.

Smasher08
07-19-2011, 01:40 PM
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Smasher08/IMG_20110716_170826.jpg

Update - 11 hours

Putting in the string savers has definitely changed the feel of the stringbed and made it stiffer -- it's like the poly crosses have asserted themselves more. It also feels like someone tightened the strings by a couple of pounds.

After hitting against a 5.5 guy and a 5.0 girl I've noticed more spin because of them, still not as much as with poly mains, but definitely more. And even though the stringbed plays stiffer, any vibrations were fine with my shoulder.

As for durability, so far, after 11 hours, I'm pretty happy. No notching, no significant fraying, and it looks like there's plenty of life left in it.

String movement: still none
Fraying: slight, like little fuzz
Power: very good
Feel: very good
Arm friendliness: excellent
Durability: so far so good
Spin: decent

I suspect that since the strings I'm comparing these to were all 1.20 and 1.18, the 1.30 gauge thickness is probably a factor in the spin production. I suspect that in order to get both the spin and durability I'm looking for, I may need to go down to 1.28g and drop the tension 1-2 lbs in the future.

In the meantime, my shoulder is pretty happy with these strings.

NLBwell
07-19-2011, 03:29 PM
Was this a constant pull stringer 10% tighter?

Smasher08
07-20-2011, 03:23 AM
Sorry NLBwell, I'm not sure what you're asking about.

If it helps, I don't string myself.

NLBwell
07-20-2011, 05:02 AM
OK, thanks anyway. Constant pull stringing machines tend to string 10% tighter than other machines.

a0f6459
07-20-2011, 11:02 AM
Before:
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Smasher08/1310217792-picsay.jpg

After:
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Smasher08/IMG_20110709_195825.jpg

I've beet trying various poly mains since last October, including Lux, Sonic Pro, Focus Hex, and Turbotwist, and to various degrees have had quite a few arm issues cropping up, mostly minor. And about 5/6 weeks ago I put some string savers into a Turbotwist - Irradiated hybrid which stiffened it up dramatically and my shoulder started killing while serving. Unfortunately since more than a month of using Turbotwist - Spiral Flex (and frequent resting) hasn't gotten me to a point where I feel comfortable serving again, I decided that for whatever reason poly mains weren't for me and I wanted to try the most arm-friendly, spinny combination I could find.

Gut.

I'd tried gut twice before in the past: once in the mid 90s when I was a 3.5 and I really didn't notice anything different or special about it, and once about 2 years ago . . . when a stringer put in some that had way too much give and not nearly enough spin that I had them cut out after 2 hours(!). So thanks to some of the posts here at talk tennis, as well write ups about Fed and Djoker's setups, I was drawn to hybriding gut with poly crosses for spin.

While I was initially leaning towards trying Silverstring crosses, two big shout-outs go to Tennis Warehouse University's string friction rankings (http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/COFreporter.php) and the posts of talk tennis member TimothyO for turning me towards MSV crosses in general and Co-Focus in particular.

I'd wanted to start by trying a budget gut, figuring that if it was arm-friendly enough and at least comparable to Intellitour 17 (my personal reference string that I used for 7/8 years) then I'd be getting something that was good enough for my purposes and it didn't matter that the budget gut didn't perform nearly as well as VS.

I couldn't get a set of budget gut quickly so I found Pacific Classic Gut 16g and pulled the trigger. Had it strung at 51 x 48.


Initial Impressions

My stringer notched it ever so slightly in a few places but nothing that appeared to go through the coating or seemed problematic. Just tapping the stringbed against the palm of my hand was a revelation: no vibrations going through to my racket arm, just proper contact feel.

Felt great.

I hit the court for an hour today doing moderate paced hitting with a friend who's a 3.5. The first 3-4 minutes were weird as it felt slippery and gloopy and biological, like hitting with a jellyfish. The ball pocketing and trampolining were like nothing I'd encountered before since I've used predominantly stiff(ish) feeling strings, and although I didn't notice any special spin being put on like with MSV Focus Hex, I sure noticed that more balls were dropping in and bouncing higher than expected. After 10-15 minutes I'd adjusted enough to it that I began to feel comfortable plowing through my groundies, especially my backhands. A few forays up to the net revealed very comfortable feel and placement, combined with almost effortless power.

On my forehands especially, I noticed that I wasn't feeling any vibrations coming through to my arm anymore so I bit the bullet and tried a couple of serves --- slowly. Even without doing my full second serve motion, I immediately noticed the balls kicking up a good six feet high, about a foot higher than expected. My shoulder still wasn't ready to go full tilt, but this was clearly very promising.

And the strings may still be a few hours away from settling in and hitting their stride.


Specific Impressions

String movement: none
Spin potential: very good to excellent
Power: good to very good
Feel: very good to excellent
Arm-friendliness: outstanding

(Reference string: Intellitour 17g)

I'll be playing at least a couple more times before next weekend with stronger partners who'll really put me through my paces, and I'll update then.

And if anyone has any questions or items they'd like me to include in this review, please by all means ask.



What kind of strokes do you have? Extreme topspin or more flat? I just want to know what kind of game this setup is conducive to.

Thanks

Smasher08
07-22-2011, 04:05 AM
Moderate spin, but my strokes are probably flatter than I think, hence my fondness of spinny strings. I use a semi western grip on my forehand and an eastern on my 1hbh, playing an aggressive all-court style.

Focus hex was fun because I could really pile on the topspin and play like a clay court specialist.

a0f6459
07-22-2011, 07:27 AM
Moderate spin, but my strokes are probably flatter than I think, hence my fondness of spinny strings. I use a semi western grip on my forehand and an eastern on my 1hbh, playing an aggressive all-court style.

Focus hex was fun because I could really pile on the topspin and play like a clay court specialist.

Thanks for the reply.

Have you ever played with a fullbed of the Pacific you use in this hybrid? What tension?

If so, what is the dropoff in power when combined with the poly?

Smasher08
07-22-2011, 09:55 AM
Nope. Tried a full bed of gut (brand unknown) a stringer surprised me with a couple of years ago and I hated how un-spinny it was. Arm-friendly and powerful, but not spinny.

Don't think there was much of a dropoff (if any) with the co-focus, until I put in the string savers. Felt a pound or two tighter then.

TennisCJC
07-22-2011, 10:17 AM
Pac Classic is good and you may want to try Bab Tonic+ Ballfeel (16g) as it is good too. I get about 20 hours of good play with Bab Tonic+ BF gut mains/poly cross. I am currently playing poly mains with either multi cross but am thinking of switching back for more power and comfort. Arm and wrist a bit sore.

Smasher08
07-24-2011, 03:32 PM
Update - 16 hours

Still only very slight fraying, like little fuzz. And I do think that there's a tiny, tiny bit more spin than before. This hybrid sure looks like it's gonna last.

At this rate, I'm wondering if I should go down to 1.25 mains x 1.20 crosses next time.....

a0f6459
07-25-2011, 08:39 AM
Update - 16 hours

Still only very slight fraying, like little fuzz. And I do think that there's a tiny, tiny bit more spin than before. This hybrid sure looks like it's gonna last.

At this rate, I'm wondering if I should go down to 1.25 mains x 1.20 crosses next time.....

Keep us updated!

I'm following along to see how it plays the life of the strings.

Smasher08
07-26-2011, 11:00 AM
Lol aw thanks buddy.

What's really surprised me is the longevity of this setup: I would've expected way more fraying by now, and also there's no discernable drop in tension or playability in the crosses.

If it had more bite and spin, it would be perfect. So depending on how long it lasts -- and I'm just guessing here but 30+ hours sure looks like a real possibility right now -- I'll go for either 16L or 17g next time.

Smasher08
08-04-2011, 03:19 PM
Update - 22 hours

It really is getting spinnier and spinnier, and the slight fraying doesn't seem to have changed since my last update.

If the setup was this spinny from the get-go, it really would be perfect.

TimothyO
08-04-2011, 04:18 PM
Update - 22 hours

It really is getting spinnier and spinnier, and the slight fraying doesn't seem to have changed since my last update.

If the setup was this spinny from the get-go, it really would be perfect.

Smasher,

My wife and I are having the same experience with our Pure Storms. As the string bed "ages" with time and play the spin potential increases as does the comfort. Control is as solid as ever.

For my Speed MP 18x20 I switched from Team to Touch to tame the power a bit and after about a 10 days the string bed is showing the same result. I have a sore ankle and can't play but on Sunday I hit some serves and the spin potential increased dramatically. I had despaired that the MP would never match the PSLGT in spin but not now.

IIRC the TW Prof mentioned that gut mains and poly crosses may increase in spin potential due to the structure or chemical make up of the gut. It may be "self lubricating".

I don't know why but rather than being eager to "try another string setup" for the first time I'm dreading the need to restring at some future date.

:)

EDIT: do try the 18g Co-Focus for the crosses...I switched to that from 17g and spin potential definitely increased. I have some Focus Hex 18L inbound which I'm going to try with VS Black in my new MG Radical OS. I had bad luck with profiled/textured crosses previously but I'm wondering if the super thin cross section will mitigate those issues.

Smasher08
08-06-2011, 10:07 AM
I don't know why but rather than being eager to "try another string setup" for the first time I'm dreading the need to restring at some future date.

:)

EDIT: do try the 18g Co-Focus for the crosses...I switched to that from 17g and spin potential definitely increased. I have some Focus Hex 18L inbound which I'm going to try with VS Black in my new MG Radical OS. I had bad luck with profiled/textured crosses previously but I'm wondering if the super thin cross section will mitigate those issues.

Thanks Timothy, and I probably owe you a huge thank you for all your posts about Co-Focus, since they turned me towards trying it in the first place!

I'm curious about a couple of things: how many hours do you think you and your wife have logged on your current string jobs, and are you encountering any difficulties with the 1.18mm crosses (ie, the alleged "sawing" that supposedly can occur when you have a difference in thickness of more than 0.05mm between your mains and crosses)?

Smasher08
08-06-2011, 10:29 AM
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Smasher08/IMG_20110806_194953.jpg

Update - 24 hours

Further to my last update, it's definitely spinnier: probably about 85% of 1.18g Turbotwist, just about on par with 1.20g Rip Control. For a 1.30g string, that's probably really good, but I just wish it didn't take 20 hours to get there!

The other interesting thing is that my Co-Focus crosses are probably in their death throes since there are now undertones to my mis-hits that are kinda blah. If I had my own stringing machine, I'd probably consider putting in fresh crosses. But since I don't, I'm strongly tempted to take out the string savers as putting them in really seemed to bring out the poly feel of the crosses.

Without them I suspect I'd just get the feeling of the mains, but at the expense of some spin. Decisions, decisions! :D

String movement: virtually none
Power: very good to excellent
Spin potential: good to very good
Feel: good to very good
Arm friendliness: very good
Fraying: slight, widespread
Durability: excellent

jjs891
08-08-2011, 10:59 AM
Smasher,

I'm really impressed that the gut is doing well even after 24hrs...amazing! I also wondered that the msv cross must be dead for a while. How many times do you think you will be re-stringing the crosses with gut main? I feel little uncomfortable with re-stringing crosses only, especially multiple times. How do you and others feel about that?

Mig1NC
08-08-2011, 12:02 PM
Go ahead and take out the crosses. I bet you get even more spin as the mains regain their ability to snap back.

JT_2eighty
08-08-2011, 12:13 PM
Thing is, I doubt any stringer will take you up on "restringing crosses only". This is when having your own stringer pays off, as you do risk possible damage to a frame that others may not want to risk on someone else's frame.

However, having restrung crosses before, it is also a time consuming laborious pain (pulling out the crosses while trying to not further damage your gut mains). Un-weaving poly crosses is about the least-fun stringing endeavor one can partake in on a stringing machine.

Best bet, since you really like this setup, is next time string it a few pounds lower, and try a really soft poly like WC Mosquito bite. The mosq bite is very slick and powerful, but also has much much better tension retention than MSV. It stays lively and soft for a while. Perhaps too lively if you're not careful, but the spin with gut/MB was akin to your review when I tried that out.

seb23
08-08-2011, 01:08 PM
Lol aw thanks buddy.

What's really surprised me is the longevity of this setup: I would've expected way more fraying by now, and also there's no discernable drop in tension or playability in the crosses.

If it had more bite and spin, it would be perfect. So depending on how long it lasts -- and I'm just guessing here but 30+ hours sure looks like a real possibility right now -- I'll go for either 16L or 17g next time.

this may sound like a stupid question but do you tend to play with brand new balls each time or keep a tube for a few hits because in my experience balls that have been used cause significantly less wear than brand new ones

Smasher08
08-08-2011, 03:12 PM
Smasher,

I'm really impressed that the gut is doing well even after 24hrs...amazing! I also wondered that the msv cross must be dead for a while. How many times do you think you will be re-stringing the crosses with gut main? I feel little uncomfortable with re-stringing crosses only, especially multiple times. How do you and others feel about that?

JJS,

Honestly, no idea. But I doubt I can find a pro stringer who'd do it!

Go ahead and take out the crosses. I bet you get even more spin as the mains regain their ability to snap back.

Mig,

Even though I doubt the poly crossses are lively anymore, there's honestly no problems with mains snapping back. There's virtually no movment there, notwithstanding what I feel are the undertones to some of the hits.

Thing is, I doubt any stringer will take you up on "restringing crosses only". This is when having your own stringer pays off, as you do risk possible damage to a frame that others may not want to risk on someone else's frame.

However, having restrung crosses before, it is also a time consuming laborious pain (pulling out the crosses while trying to not further damage your gut mains). Un-weaving poly crosses is about the least-fun stringing endeavor one can partake in on a stringing machine.

Best bet, since you really like this setup, is next time string it a few pounds lower, and try a really soft poly like WC Mosquito bite. The mosq bite is very slick and powerful, but also has much much better tension retention than MSV. It stays lively and soft for a while. Perhaps too lively if you're not careful, but the spin with gut/MB was akin to your review when I tried that out.

Cheers, JT. I think you're probably right and that I'll need to get the whole stringjob restrung in one go, hence my preference to taking out the string savers instead. Personally, I think the best thing for me is to go with a higher string gauge next time so that I'll get the spinniness I'm looking for from the get-go.

this may sound like a stupid question but do you tend to play with brand new balls each time or keep a tube for a few hits because in my experience balls that have been used cause significantly less wear than brand new ones

Hi Seb,

I tend to use a tube 2-3x, but last time I hit with fresh balls.

seb23
08-08-2011, 04:01 PM
JJS,


Hi Seb,

I tend to use a tube 2-3x, but last time I hit with fresh balls.

I normally use ball for the same amount of time. I'm really tempted to try gut but not sure how they would hold up. Some people like yourself say they last longer and others say break in no time.

Do you ever use poly mains and syn crosses? if so how would you compare the durability of that to you current set up

Mig1NC
08-08-2011, 05:35 PM
Crap. That was a typo. I meant to say "take out the string savers".

My bad.

Smasher08
08-09-2011, 12:02 PM
I normally use ball for the same amount of time. I'm really tempted to try gut but not sure how they would hold up. Some people like yourself say they last longer and others say break in no time.

Do you ever use poly mains and syn crosses? if so how would you compare the durability of that to you current set up

Yep, I used them for about 8 months and my arm & shoulder didn't like it at all: I found out the hard way that I've got some form of hitch in my serve!

I think the longevity is related to a lot of factors including your racket string pattern, the string gauge, the thickness and quality of the gut's coating, the material of your cross and whether or not it's smooth or textured, your stroke mechanics and how much spin you put on the ball, etc.

So honestly, I think the only way to find out is to try it.

spdskr
08-09-2011, 01:24 PM
Your experience using Pacific Classic mains with smooth poly crosses is very similar to mine. Compared to some other natural guts, Pacific doesn't fray as readily, plays consistently throughout its lifespan and feels somewhat less powerful. I'm not a huge fan of the 1.30 gauge. I like the feel of the 1.25 the best, but have had issues with durability. For me the best compromise of feel and durability is the 16L version.

I also find that using a soft, smooth poly works best for the longevity of the gut. As mentioned, Pacific Classic does not fray as much as other brands. I find it snaps when the mains are notched about 50%, even though there is little fraying. This gut does not last until there are only a few stands remaining like other brands.

Lastly, even though the soft polys do not feel as powerful and crisp to me, I find they do not feel as "dead" and harsh after 10+ hours as crosses with gut mains. Therefore, the string job feels great until it breaks.

I've got over 15 hrs on my current hybrid with 16L mains, although the notching is aproaching 50% on several strings. I would say both spin potential and feel are at their maximum presently. Racquet is a Volkl PB 10 Mid, strung at 54/50 lbs.

Smasher08
08-09-2011, 03:05 PM
I also find that using a soft, smooth poly works best for the longevity of the gut. As mentioned, Pacific Classic does not fray as much as other brands. I find it snaps when the mains are notched about 50%, even though there is little fraying. This gut does not last until there are only a few stands remaining like other brands.

I've got over 15 hrs on my current hybrid with 16L mains, although the notching is aproaching 50% on several strings. I would say both spin potential and feel are at their maximum presently. Racquet is a Volkl PB 10 Mid, strung at 54/50 lbs.

Thanks Spdskr

The interesting thing about Co-Focus is that it's much more elastic than other co-polys, and I'm finding that it really doesn't notch the mains.

seb23
08-09-2011, 03:40 PM
Yep, I used them for about 8 months and my arm & shoulder didn't like it at all: I found out the hard way that I've got some form of hitch in my serve!

I think the longevity is related to a lot of factors including your racket string pattern, the string gauge, the thickness and quality of the gut's coating, the material of your cross and whether or not it's smooth or textured, your stroke mechanics and how much spin you put on the ball, etc.

So honestly, I think the only way to find out is to try it.

Thats interesting because i've actually had wrist pains recently is both my right and left wrist but more so in my right. Im not sure if i put it down to the strings or bad technique.

I had a long break over the winter (about 8 months) from when i last played last year to starting again this year and as a result my technique and timing was off which resulted in more mis hits, this was made worse as i changed from the head pallets which i hate to the tk82s ones, even though i knew it was the right choice for my grip (sw) it sill took a while to get used to

also when i started playing again this year i strung my racket with blue gear in the mains and i gotta say its the worst string I've ever played with. It felt absolutely dead from when i started playing with it, had no power and tbh i didn't find it very spinny, on top of this it seemed to have a horrible vibration

Im not sure if it was one or the other or maybe both factors that caused the pains

I'm very tempted to try gut but a little reluctant to spend the money when i still feel I'm not playing at my best as it would be a bit of a waste if I'm not hitting the ball cleanly

jk175d
08-11-2011, 05:48 AM
Thing is, I doubt any stringer will take you up on "restringing crosses only". This is when having your own stringer pays off, as you do risk possible damage to a frame that others may not want to risk on someone else's frame.

However, having restrung crosses before, it is also a time consuming laborious pain (pulling out the crosses while trying to not further damage your gut mains). Un-weaving poly crosses is about the least-fun stringing endeavor one can partake in on a stringing machine.



I just cut out the poly crosses in my raqcuet yesterday in order to try a different poly cross. It wasn't problematic at all. The gut mains had only the most minimal notching which allowed the new crosses to easily snap into place. Unweaving the old cross was easy. Just slid them out. Could be an advantage of the Prince port holes though.

jjs891
08-11-2011, 08:04 AM
I just cut out the poly crosses in my raqcuet yesterday in order to try a different poly cross. It wasn't problematic at all. The gut mains had only the most minimal notching which allowed the new crosses to easily snap into place. Unweaving the old cross was easy. Just slid them out. Could be an advantage of the Prince port holes though.

I hope you had the racquet mounted on the stringer before you took out the crosses, otherwise you will warp the frame. If you didn't, you might have problems stringing the crooses as it will tend to compress the frame laterally and end up elongating the frame.

Mig1NC
08-11-2011, 09:00 AM
I hope you had the racquet mounted on the stringer before you took out the crosses, otherwise you will warp the frame. If you didn't, you might have problems stringing the crooses as it will tend to compress the frame laterally and end up elongating the frame.

People always say this. And I don't doubt it is true. But imagine what happens when you break a string in match play...

JackB1
08-11-2011, 10:34 AM
People always say this. And I don't doubt it is true. But imagine what happens when you break a string in match play...

There's a good reason why people always say that! Because it's true.

Breaking a string in match play is different because it's only one string. Removing ALL the crosses without the racquet in the stringer is a lot more stressful on the frame.

jk175d
08-11-2011, 10:42 AM
I hope you had the racquet mounted on the stringer before you took out the crosses, otherwise you will warp the frame. If you didn't, you might have problems stringing the crooses as it will tend to compress the frame laterally and end up elongating the frame.

of course, I should have said so as to not encourage anyone to do that without the frame securely mounted. I have a 6 point clamping system on my maching so the hoop is very stable. I've cut the crosses out of my frames numerous times when I'm not happy with the tension or type of string I have in there. It's never a problem and saves time and money.

Of course I'll only do this when the mains are still relatively new. If there's any nothcing I'll go ahead and cut everything out if I feel like I must change the crosses.

Smasher08
08-11-2011, 11:28 AM
of course, I should have said so as to not encourage anyone to do that without the frame securely mounted. I have a 6 point clamping system on my maching so the hoop is very stable. I've cut the crosses out of my frames numerous times when I'm not happy with the tension or type of string I have in there. It's never a problem and saves time and money.

Of course I'll only do this when the mains are still relatively new. If there's any nothcing I'll go ahead and cut everything out if I feel like I must change the crosses.

Sounds like an art to me. You should video it. (seriously)

JackB1
08-12-2011, 05:00 AM
Sounds like an art to me. You should video it. (seriously)

Why would u need video? You mount the racquet, cut the crosses and pull them out. And then restring the crosses. It's no different than the first time u strung the crosses.

Smasher08
08-12-2011, 11:43 PM
Why would u need video? You mount the racquet, cut the crosses and pull them out. And then restring the crosses. It's no different than the first time u strung the crosses.

Well, probably because as a non-stringer anything like this would be just as interesting as a guide to alchemy! ;)

Smasher08
08-14-2011, 06:41 AM
FYI - almost at the 30 hour mark now and the spinniness keeps increasing bit by bit, so the string savers will come out.

I expect the spin potential to be reduced somewhat but the comfort to increase substantially.

Smasher08
08-20-2011, 10:15 AM
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Smasher08/IMG_20110820_180256.jpg

Update - 32 hours

After playing an intense 2 1/2 hours against a 5.5 last weekend, I was starting to feel poly-like feedback vibrations from the stringbed and resolved to take the string savers out.

Hit with that for an hour on Wednesday night and while all the poly tones were gone, I definitely lost a good chunk of spin and it felt like the strings were pocketing too much. I was pretty unhappy with it and had all but resolved to try talking my stringer into putting in new crosses. So enter the last-ditch compromise: I put 4 string savers back in along the 6th cross and gave it a shot yesterday and today.

I think I've finally found my setup.

Lots of power, lots of spin, almost no poly feedback. In fact, I'd say it has even more spin than before and plays like a controlled cannon. Best of all, there's still no significant notching on the mains, so it looks like a shoo-in to make it to the 40 hour mark at least.

Damn good durability I think.

I'd read with some degree of envy about pvaudio & TimothyO's descriptions of the enormous amounts of spin they were getting, and while I do think my string gauge was a factor, I also think I'm finally starting to get that kind of spin.

String movement: virtually none
Power: excellent
Spin potential: excellent
Feel: excellent
Arm friendliness: excellent
Fraying: slight
Notching: virtually none
Durability: excellent

Just to be safe, I'd already pulled the trigger on some 1.25 Pac Classic and 1.18 Co-Focus. It's now ready so I'll be able to directly compare.

JackB1
08-20-2011, 10:44 AM
I am using Head nat gut mains and co-focus crosses and liking it quite a bit. The crosses dont move a lot (like the Black Venom did) and the comfort and power is nice. Cofocus does indeed seem like a great cross for gut mains.

Smasher08
08-23-2011, 01:05 PM
Update - 33 hours

We might be remaining at 33 hours for quite a while since I decided to give the 17g setup a try and was just blown away by it. New thread to start shortly.

In any event, for anyone who's considering the setup I used in this thread, I think that my overall lessons are: (a) the durability and arm-friendliness are clearly phenomenal, and (b) in an 18x20 string pattern like mine it may be preferable to go down to 16L or 17g mains.

Also, I have nothing but good things to say about Pac Classic and Co-Focus. The Co-Focus, especially, appears to deserve a lot of credit for this setup's longevity since, like TimothyO has pointed out in other threads, its elasticity seems to allow it to compress a bit on impact and therefore not notch mains nearly as much as a non-elasticated co-poly would.

One further note: six weeks ago I hadn't been able to hit a serve in a month and a half because of the pain in my shoulder from shock and vibrations coming off of poly mains. With this setup it took a few weeks for my arm to be able to serve full-tilt, but last week in one of the sets I played, I hit two aces in each service game.

gregor.b
08-23-2011, 01:17 PM
Update - 33 hours

We might be remaining at 33 hours for quite a while since I decided to give the 17g setup a try and was just blown away by it. New thread to start shortly.

In any event, for anyone who's considering the setup I used in this thread, I think that my overall lessons are: (a) the durability and arm-friendliness are clearly phenomenal, and (b) in an 18x20 string pattern like mine it may be preferable to go down to 16L or 17g mains.

Also, I have nothing but good things to say about Pac Classic and Co-Focus. The Co-Focus, especially, appears to deserve a lot of credit for this setup's longevity since, like TimothyO has pointed out in other threads, its elasticity seems to allow it to compress a bit on impact and therefore not notch mains nearly as much as a non-elasticated co-poly would.
Am about to try this setup to try and get rid of TE.Also looking for a bit more pop in an 18 x 20 K6.1 95.Thanks for the info and updates.

Smasher08
08-23-2011, 02:56 PM
Good luck Gregor! If your TE is poly-related, I think you'll really enjoy this setup.

OldButGame
08-24-2011, 04:33 PM
Maybe I missed it along this thread,..But has anyone tried a full bed of Co-Focus??...and How did You like that??:-?

The Big Kahuna
08-24-2011, 05:46 PM
From an article by Joshua Speckman in Tennis Player Magazine this month:

"Federer is one of the few pros today that played with full natural gut for a significant part of his career. He was pretty good with it too, beating Sampras at Wimbledon in 2001 with a full bed of gut. So why did he add copoly strings to the mix?"

"Spin control," answers Ferguson. "Spin is part of control, and he gains both. Definitely more spin, and with that comes control. And with that control he can string way down low. He strings at 21.5 or 22 kilos (47 or 48.5 pounds)," he adds."


"Federer's setup actually bears some resemblance to spaghetti strings, as that invention also used natural gut in the mains and a synthetic in the crosses. Many players find the combination of extremely elastic gut mains with stiff, hard and slick copoly crosses to be as, or more, spin-friendly than a full bed of copoly, while also being more comfortable, powerful and giving better feel for the ball."

"In string-on-string friction tests, tennis equipment researcher Crawford Lindsey found that gut mains slide with less friction along copoly crosses than any other string or string combination. And he found that - unlike other strings, where notching ramps up friction and disables the snapback mechanism – inter-string friction actually gets lower as the notches get deeper."

"Why? Natural oils seep out of the gut at the notches and lubricate the string intersections. This suggests that a gut/poly hybrid might retain its spin-generating potential for longer than any other string or combination. Well, at least until the gut breaks."

"Surprisingly, the opposite configuration – poly mains/gut crosses – slides much less easily. Lindsey says the two materials are sticky in reverse perhaps because the surface of the gut crosses quickly abrades, pulling up microscopic fibers that get hung up on the copoly mains as they try to slide."

The Big Kahuna
08-24-2011, 05:59 PM
Thanks Timothy, and I probably owe you a huge thank you for all your posts about Co-Focus, since they turned me towards trying it in the first place!

I'm curious about a couple of things: how many hours do you think you and your wife have logged on your current string jobs, and are you encountering any difficulties with the 1.18mm crosses (ie, the alleged "sawing" that supposedly can occur when you have a difference in thickness of more than 0.05mm between your mains and crosses)?

What about any other comparably priced Polys?

From my research, I think I have the field narrowed pretty well for the Poly cross string - which I personally want to be comfortable, hold it's tension well, and be SMOOTH and not textured (so it is nice and slippery for the gut and does not restrict the gut's ability to slide and "snap back") and have good feel - and be well-priced (it is only the cross string, after all).

If you have any input, you know it's always most welcome. My list includes:

SPPP (17)
Kirschbaum Pro Line II (17) - at $6. a set right now, a great value!
Weiss Cannon Silverstring (17)
MSV Co-Focus (17)
SP Hyperion (17)

jk175d
08-25-2011, 08:13 AM
What about any other comparably priced Polys?

From my research, I think I have the field narrowed pretty well for the Poly cross string - which I personally want to be comfortable, hold it's tension well, and be SMOOTH and not textured (so it is nice and slippery for the gut and does not restrict the gut's ability to slide and "snap back") and have good feel - and be well-priced (it is only the cross string, after all).

If you have any input, you know it's always most welcome. My list includes:

SPPP (17)
Kirschbaum Pro Line II (17) - at $6. a set right now, a great value!
Weiss Cannon Silverstring (17)
MSV Co-Focus (17)
SP Hyperion (17)


I've got two frames strung with gut mains, one has SPPP 17 crosses the other has Silverstring 17 crosses. My racquet is an EXO3 Tour 100 16x18, because it is such a flexible frame already I think the Silverstring feels much crisper as a cross. SPPP is fairly muted feeling so maybe not the best match with a muted stick. But in a stiffer frame SPPP might be the ticket.

Both set-ups are holding up really well. I'm pretty sure the tension dropped over the course of the first couple of times out with each but they've settled into a stable place.

I've been stringing gut/poly at about 54-55/47-49 Probably next time I'll go up on the gut a coule of lbs. Either that or prestretch them a little bit more.

Avadia
08-25-2011, 10:11 AM
I just recently strung up my Dunlop AG 4D200 Tour with a similar setup -- I used Pacific Classic Gut 17 gauge mains with Co-focus 1.23 crosses. I strung at 59/56 lbs on a constant pull machine. Played with this setup for the first time last night. What really jumps out at me from the get-go with this setup was the sheer power off the stringbed. I expected the power to be muted because I strung it up a little tighter than I might normally, but wow! Lots of pop from this setup. I was having a hard time at first controlling volleys and overheads, and even groundstrokes were sailing on me at first.

But I quickly dialed things in and really liked this combination. Plenty of power, but also plenty of spin. I was serving non-returnables all night and getting lots of first serves in the box with pace and placement. Topspin forehands and second serves had lots of action, and volleys, when hit firmly, didn't come back. Can't wait to play with this again now that the stringbed has had a chance to settle in some and I have gotten used to playing with it.

The Big Kahuna
08-25-2011, 11:53 AM
I just recently strung up my Dunlop AG 4D200 Tour with a similar setup -- I used Pacific Classic Gut 17 gauge mains with Co-focus 1.23 crosses. I strung at 59/56 lbs on a constant pull machine. Played with this setup for the first time last night. What really jumps out at me from the get-go with this setup was the sheer power off the stringbed. I expected the power to be muted because I strung it up a little tighter than I might normally, but wow! Lots of pop from this setup. I was having a hard time at first controlling volleys and overheads, and even groundstrokes were sailing on me at first.

But I quickly dialed things in and really liked this combination. Plenty of power, but also plenty of spin. I was serving non-returnables all night and getting lots of first serves in the box with pace and placement. Topspin forehands and second serves had lots of action, and volleys, when hit firmly, didn't come back. Can't wait to play with this again now that the stringbed has had a chance to settle in some and I have gotten used to playing with it.

I agree.

I have been playing with SP Tornado in the mains and Mantis Comfort in the crosses (tensions noted below) and even switching those out gave me a little more pop. When I went to poly in the crosses and gut in the mains (KLIP Legend Tour 17 - also very well priced in comparison to VS or other natural gut strings) the power increase was notable while I gave up nothing in spin and achieved better feel and comfort. I also play with a softer racquet - the Youtek Prestige Pro - so I tried a softer poly in the crosses to start with good result (Kirshbaum Pro Line II 17).

The MSV Co-Focus 18 sounds like a great option and I am stringing some up to test against another racquet with Weiss Silverstring 17 as the cross in the other. Both racquets will have KLIP Legend Tour 17 as mains.

For the money, in a smooth poly, these three strings would seem to be my best options. Anyone compare these with a gut hybrid in the past and want to weigh in in the differences?

How about you TimothyO?

Smasher08
08-26-2011, 12:26 PM
For the money, in a smooth poly, these three strings would seem to be my best options. Anyone compare these with a gut hybrid in the past and want to weigh in in the differences?

I've never tried Silverstring but I've only read good things about it. As for Co-Focus 18, it's playing like Co-Focus 17: awesome.

The Big Kahuna
08-26-2011, 01:04 PM
I've never tried Silverstring but I've only read good things about it. As for Co-Focus 18, it's playing like Co-Focus 17: awesome.

Trying both of these right now (starting tomorrow). I will let you know how they compare.

The Kirschbaum Pro Line II was nice. Very comfortable and powerful compared to the SP Tornado I used as crosses in my last comparison playtest for a reference set in initial comparison. Good spin and very good touch and feel. Large sweet spot and better pocketing compared to Tornado (which is textured and offers most friction to the gut).

Smasher08
08-26-2011, 01:54 PM
Nice, I'm definitely looking forward to hearing the comparison.

Just as a guess, I think their biggest difference will be the notching of mains over time. In theory Co-Focus should notch them less and therefore make the mains last longer.

But of course that's a testable hypothesis. :)

Mig1NC
08-26-2011, 10:55 PM
Usually with poly when you get down to 18g the tension maintenance goes down as well.

I'm curious to hear how long it lasts with 18g co-focus crosses

Keifers
08-26-2011, 11:24 PM
From an article by Joshua Speckman in Tennis Player Magazine this month:

"Federer is one of the few pros today that played with full natural gut for a significant part of his career. He was pretty good with it too, beating Sampras at Wimbledon in 2001 with a full bed of gut. So why did he add copoly strings to the mix?"

"Spin control," answers Ferguson. "Spin is part of control, and he gains both. Definitely more spin, and with that comes control. And with that control he can string way down low. He strings at 21.5 or 22 kilos (47 or 48.5 pounds)," he adds."


"Federer's setup actually bears some resemblance to spaghetti strings, as that invention also used natural gut in the mains and a synthetic in the crosses. Many players find the combination of extremely elastic gut mains with stiff, hard and slick copoly crosses to be as, or more, spin-friendly than a full bed of copoly, while also being more comfortable, powerful and giving better feel for the ball."

"In string-on-string friction tests, tennis equipment researcher Crawford Lindsey found that gut mains slide with less friction along copoly crosses than any other string or string combination. And he found that - unlike other strings, where notching ramps up friction and disables the snapback mechanism – inter-string friction actually gets lower as the notches get deeper."

"Why? Natural oils seep out of the gut at the notches and lubricate the string intersections. This suggests that a gut/poly hybrid might retain its spin-generating potential for longer than any other string or combination. Well, at least until the gut breaks."

"Surprisingly, the opposite configuration – poly mains/gut crosses – slides much less easily. Lindsey says the two materials are sticky in reverse perhaps because the surface of the gut crosses quickly abrades, pulling up microscopic fibers that get hung up on the copoly mains as they try to slide."
Very interesting read. :)

Thanks for posting.

The Big Kahuna
08-27-2011, 02:37 PM
Two hours of play. Initial impressions (both very positive):

Strings: KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains / MSV Co.-Focus 17L (1.18) crosses 48/52 - Great ball pocketing and lively response. Very "Liquid" or "Airy" sensation when hitting ("Spaghetti Strings"?). Great bite on the ball - terrific spin potential. Slightly muted power (balls stayed in play). Larger sweet spot. Tons of dwell time.

Power: A-
Control: (+ ranked) A-
Feel: A
Comfort: (+ ranked) A
Spin: A+


•Strings: KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains / Weiss CANNON Silverstring 17 (1.20) crosses 48/52 - Comments: Crisp, yet still very comfortable. Solid, with decent power, yet with good control.

Power: A-
Control: (+ ranked) A
Feel: A-
Comfort: (+ ranked) A-
Spin: B

More to come.

jk175d
08-27-2011, 04:26 PM
Two hours of play. Initial impressions (both very positive):

Strings: KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains / MSV Co.-Focus 17L (1.18) crosses 48/52 - Great ball pocketing and lively response. Very "Liquid" or "Airy" sensation when hitting ("Spaghetti Strings"?). Great bite on the ball - terrific spin potential. Slightly muted power (balls stayed in play). Larger sweet spot. Tons of dwell time.

Power: A-
Control: (+ ranked) A-
Feel: A
Comfort: (+ ranked) A
Spin: A+


•Strings: KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains / Weiss CANNON Silverstring 17 (1.20) crosses 48/52 - Comments: Crisp, yet still very comfortable. Solid, with decent power, yet with good control.

Power: A-
Control: (+ ranked) A
Feel: A-
Comfort: (+ ranked) A-
Spin: B

More to come.

Are you really stringing the gut mains LOWER than the poly crosses? I've never heard of anyone doing that. What's your reason?

Avadia
08-27-2011, 06:46 PM
Are you really stringing the gut mains LOWER than the poly crosses? I've never heard of anyone doing that. What's your reason?

I was wondering the exact same thing.

TimothyO
08-27-2011, 07:20 PM
A friend has borrowed my PSLGT for a few matches so that VS Team/CoFocus bed is roughly 40 hours now.

My wife's is at 50+ easily and still doing great. Last weekend she ended up on top in a doubles round robin which included some A level ALTA players and ome former AA player returning to the sport.

Even after just 6 or 8 hours of play my 300 is showing the same progression: better spin and feel with age. A friend who switched to VS/CoFocus from full multi is wildly pleased with the results.

I strongly recommend stringing crosses 3-5 pounds looser than the mains. it does wonders for spin potential. 3 doesn't provide a huge benefit and 5 can get twangy, especially on kick serves. 4 is probably best.

Edit...one thing I did notice is that if you hit with lots of spin you may want to trim the mains with nail clippers once in a while. They get hairy as they age. sort of like men's ears and noses! :)

Keifers
08-27-2011, 10:07 PM
^^ That last sentence, Timothy.... too much information!! :o:)

parasailing
08-27-2011, 10:33 PM
Have any of you guys hit with WC Scorpion, Silverstring, B5E, Kisrchbaum PL2, Signum Pro Poly Plasma, and can chime in on where Co-focus stands?

I still have a few more strings to try out but here is my list of top crosses to use against VS mains.


1. WC Scorpion
2. WC Silverstring
3. WC B5E
4. Genesis Black Magic
5. WC Mosquito Bite


I still need to try SPPP, PL2, and Co-focus.

Smasher08
08-28-2011, 12:20 PM
Have any of you guys hit with WC Scorpion, Silverstring, B5E, Kisrchbaum PL2, Signum Pro Poly Plasma, and can chime in on where Co-focus stands?

I still have a few more strings to try out but here is my list of top crosses to use against VS mains.


1. WC Scorpion
2. WC Silverstring
3. WC B5E
4. Genesis Black Magic
5. WC Mosquito Bite


I still need to try SPPP, PL2, and Co-focus.

Methinks Big Kahuna is our resident expert on the comparison between Co-Focus and Silverstring! :D

Me, when I find something that works and I'm happy with, I tend to stick with it. All things considered, Co-Focus seems to be a fantastic cross at an excellent price. And I do think it's probably the spinniest cross out there.

The Big Kahuna
08-28-2011, 02:19 PM
Are you really stringing the gut mains LOWER than the poly crosses? I've never heard of anyone doing that. What's your reason?

No.

The Gut mains are at 52 lbs.

The Poly crosses are about 10% lower at 48 lbs.

Sorry if the confused you.

The Big Kahuna
08-28-2011, 02:22 PM
Have any of you guys hit with WC Scorpion, Silverstring, B5E, Kisrchbaum PL2, Signum Pro Poly Plasma, and can chime in on where Co-focus stands?

See my post on both the WC Silverstring and PL2 on page 3.

The Big Kahuna
08-28-2011, 02:25 PM
Strings: KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains @ 52 / Kirschbaum Pro Line II 17g crosses @ 48

Poly Stringforum ranking: 80% satisfaction / PPR 0.00 (NOTE: top rated Pro Line guage 1.15 @ 95% and 1.20 @ 90%)

Power: A

Control: B+

Feel: B+

Comfort: A-

Spin: B+

Tension Stability: B (dropped from 55 to 44 RA in 3 hours)

OVERALL: B+

Comments: Very comfortable and powerful compared to the Tornado reference set in initial comparison (as I was coming from that string in a poly/multi hybrid). Good spin and very good touch and feel. Large sweet spot and better pocketing compared to SP Tornado. The smooth texture is much better for spin production and likely durability of the gut.

Smasher08
08-29-2011, 06:02 AM
New thread for the Pac Classic 1.25 x Co-Focus 1.18 hybrid (http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5939129#post5939129) I'm now testing.

I've also logged a few more hours on this one since its spinniness is becoming truly exceptional. However, I've also noticed that the mains are getting worn down at some crosses. I'm hesitant to call it "notching" since it doesn't resemble a syn gut's notches. But wearing down they are.

So the ultimate lifespan of this setup will probably be somewhere in the neighbourhood of 40-45 hours. Which certainly is exceptional.

If I was prepared to use string savers at the intersections that were wearing down, the longevity could certainly be extended well beyond this. But because of the dead poly feel problems that became more asserted by using 13 string savers before, I'm not going to go this route.

To anyone who has their own stringing machine and wishes to try this setup, I'd recommend restringing your crosses every 20 or so hours, that way you could extend the life of this setup well towards 60-80 hours without any of the problems from dead poly crosses.

jk175d
08-29-2011, 06:53 AM
No.

The Gut mains are at 52 lbs.

The Poly crosses are about 10% lower at 48 lbs.

Sorry if the confused you.

cool, that makes more sense. I think in your original post you wrote it backwards.

Pitmiksovic
08-29-2011, 03:33 PM
So after reading this thread and the other one just like it (vs mains/poly cross) I am convinced to try this setup.

I am a 4.0 baseliner trying to become an all courter, I have somewhat heavy topspin, but yet I like to try and flatten out sometimes and also have recently been hitting a lot more slice BH, and I hit mostly kick serves.

Current setup - LM radical mp, prince premier lt crosses, prince poly exp mains, 58 lbs for outdoor, 59 lbs for indoor. I have used other hybrids in the past, always a poly main and either solid core nylon or multifil crosses. I always like the 58-60 lb range no matter what particular poly mains or synth crosses I use.

I ordered some Klip legend 16 ga and I decided to try the proline II 1.25.

So my question is what tension would you guys suggest I start out at? I would prefer to be a little more control oriented. I was thinking 57 or 59 for the gut mains and 55 or 57 for the crosses but I really don't know because this setup is totally new to me. I don't want to be too tight, I don't want to be too loose, I don't want to end up cutting out this expensive string job!

So what do y'all think?

Smasher08
08-30-2011, 01:26 PM
To give you a reference point, I always used to string multis a couple of pounds over middle of the recommended tension range for my racket.

With this setup, I'm going one pound below the minimum of the recommended range. I'm a 5.0 all-courter, and I find that it's really added to my game. More power, more spin, and even more consistency.

The thing about going loose with tensions is that generating spin in a hybrid like this depends on your mains sliding on the slick, smooth copoly crosses -- which ideally offer very little resistance to the mains snapping back into place at impact. The lower the tensions, the easier it is for them to snap back.

And the more spin you get, the more control you have. I've found that at lower tensions (well, probably at any tension) gut just doesn't behave how a synthetic string would. I get a lot more touch and a lot more power.

I think you ought to consider exactly what you want out of these strings. If you put insane Rafa-like spin on your shots, I don't know if you'll get the same kind of longevity I did (but I could be wrong). But then again, at 4.0 you probably don't yet have the racket head speed that would really start burning through strings. Are you a frequent stringbreaker?

The other thing to consider is that the higher your tension, the faster a string will break.

Personally, I'd suggest going down to 54 or 55 for the mains, only because you might get cold feet at the prospect of going down even lower. The general consensus around here is that the poly crosses should be strung 2-4 lbs lower than the mains. I go 3 lbs lower.

But honestly, if you want to string up in the high 50s because that's your tension and gut's very new to you, that's fine. But in all honesty I don't think you'll be getting the full effect and full benefit of this particular type of hybrid.

Pitmiksovic
08-30-2011, 02:29 PM
Ok cool, thanks for the advice. Yeah I am worried if I don't go loose enough I won't maximize the benefits of this setup or the life of the gut, but I also worry about going too loose and having no control.

As for string breaking, i get about 10 hrs out of the premier lt crosses, I used to get probably 15 hrs out of duraflex as a cross.

So it sounds like maybe i should try 57/53 to start and after hitting with that for a little bit maybe get down to 55/52 for the 2nd one.

Thanks again, I'll post back on how it goes.

JackB1
09-01-2011, 07:13 AM
Anyone have a good alternative for the CoFocus copoly crosses with gut mains? I want to soften things up a little. Are there any synguts that are round and slippery like CoFocus?

JT_2eighty
09-01-2011, 07:27 AM
Anyone have a good alternative for the CoFocus copoly crosses with gut mains? I want to soften things up a little. Are there any synguts that are round and slippery like CoFocus?

Head RIP Feel as found in Intellistring hybrid pack is your answer. To be sure, this is not the same RIP Feel as found in Intellitour, as the Intellistring cross is white instead of natural, and has a coating to it that is extremely slippery. There is no similar isospeed string either that I've seen to mimic the exact feel and material of Intellistring cross. Sucks that you can only get it in that hybrid pack, but worth it.

I've used that exact string combo with VS mains in the past, and it was too spinny and powerful for me, moreso than the gut/msv combo, which I also tried at that time, or any other gut/poly combo that I've used (and I've tried a whole slew of em).

As far as a syn gut, they all notch over time, increasing friction immensely; while RIP Feel has no core, it is the same material from the outer to inner layers, it frays like gut, and is very slick throughout even as it frays.

GlenK
09-01-2011, 07:35 AM
I'm having good luck with smooth copolys that are 1.25mm or less in my x's. Any textured poly or 16g as x's seems to hamper spin generation a bit as compared to the smaller smooth copoly.

I just like the feel of the VS gut sliding over those small smooth copolys. Really seems to be the ticket for me..

Mig1NC
09-01-2011, 08:37 AM
Head RIP Feel as found in Intellistring hybrid pack is your answer. To be sure, this is not the same RIP Feel as found in Intellitour, as the Intellistring cross is white instead of natural, and has a coating to it that is extremely slippery. There is no similar isospeed string either that I've seen to mimic the exact feel and material of Intellistring cross. Sucks that you can only get it in that hybrid pack, but worth it.

I've used that exact string combo with VS mains in the past, and it was too spinny and powerful for me, moreso than the gut/msv combo, which I also tried at that time, or any other gut/poly combo that I've used (and I've tried a whole slew of em).

As far as a syn gut, they all notch over time, increasing friction immensely; while RIP Feel has no core, it is the same material from the outer to inner layers, it frays like gut, and is very slick throughout even as it frays.

Like this ?
http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Head_Intellistring_String/descpageACHEAD-HIS16.html

JackB1
09-01-2011, 09:02 AM
Like this ?
http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Head_Intellistring_String/descpageACHEAD-HIS16.html

that's it.

But I am not going to buy a package of string and throw away half the set.
Sorry, but there has to be something else like Rip Feel out there.

Boricua
09-01-2011, 09:14 AM
A friend has borrowed my PSLGT for a few matches so that VS Team/CoFocus bed is roughly 40 hours now.

My wife's is at 50+ easily and still doing great. Last weekend she ended up on top in a doubles round robin which included some A level ALTA players and ome former AA player returning to the sport.

Even after just 6 or 8 hours of play my 300 is showing the same progression: better spin and feel with age. A friend who switched to VS/CoFocus from full multi is wildly pleased with the results.

I strongly recommend stringing crosses 3-5 pounds looser than the mains. it does wonders for spin potential. 3 doesn't provide a huge benefit and 5 can get twangy, especially on kick serves. 4 is probably best.

Edit...one thing I did notice is that if you hit with lots of spin you may want to trim the mains with nail clippers once in a while. They get hairy as they age. sort of like men's ears and noses! :)

What do the guys who changed from full multi say?

Pitmiksovic
09-01-2011, 09:28 AM
So I had my first hit today with the new setup of klip legend 16 main/pro line II 1.25 crosses. I ended up going 57/53 and glad I did. Any tighter on the crosses would have been too firm. I'm amazed how much looser you can string and still maintain control with this setup. I might go down to 55/51 like smasher originally suggested, not sure yet because outdoor season is about thru here and I do like to go a little tighter for indoor, so I might just wait til next spring to do that, don't know yet, doesn't really matter now anyway...

So anyway, my thoughts on this setup compared to the poly main/multi cross that I am used to:

Control was much better. Spin was far superior. Comfort was an improvement once it broke in a little. Power was better and easier to control. The ball seemed to go thru the court better. With the old setup I felt like sometimes my forehand would kinda die off a little where now my forehand was exploding off the court. Backhand was wonderful. I was actually able to impart spin on my 2 hander! But the slice was so nice to hit I didn't want to use my 2 hander. Slice stayed nice and low, never floating on me. Angles were easy to generate with it. I'm a little afraid this setup will make me a lazy stay back and slice backhands all day kind of player because there was just so much bite on the ball it felt incredible. I could hit any spot on the court I wanted with the slice, never been able to do that before.

I have been having problems all summer with double faulting and today that was not the case. Better spin made me feel more comfortable going for more on my 1st and 2nd serve and they all seemed to drop in, yet with a bit more zip on them. Volleys were more solid and accurate. Volleys are my biggest weakness, they never have too much on them but today I felt good punching them and they were solid and had good pace.

My partner even commented that I didn't miss ANYTHING today.

It looks like durabilty won't be an issue, there was no signs of wear like with my old setup after just one session of hitting.

So basically improved feel, better spin, and more controllable power. I think I'll be sticking with this setup.

JT_2eighty
09-01-2011, 10:24 AM
Like this ?
http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Head_Intellistring_String/descpageACHEAD-HIS16.html

Yep, and get the white, not natural.

I agree it sucks to have a half-set of string you don't want, but for instance, a string like Recoil (the only other 'slick' multi I can think of), costs $18, so your $9 Intellistring comes out the same cost to you (if you absolutely find nothing to do with the RIP Power mains). If Intellistring works for you, then buy 8 packs at a time and the rate drops to like 7.50? Still comes out cheaper than most full sets of premium multi, and IMO, RIP Feel is premium stuff.

Also, Isospeed does make Head strings, and while I haven't tried them all, perhaps they do have one that plays similarly, I'd like to give Axon multi a try; maybe when indoor season rolls around and if Polystar becomes less comfy in the winter, I will fall back to my Gut/RIP hybrids and try some other options out like Axon, etc.

The only other option is the Mojo Rig, Gut/Isospeed Pro Classic, it's the same material as RIP Feel, just not as slick as the white Intellistring crosses. FWIW, Intellistring crosses lasted long enough to justify losing the other half set ($4) to be relegated into my box of unused strings.

Mig1NC
09-01-2011, 12:44 PM
Eh, well you could always sell the other half sets of RIP on the Talk Tennis Classifieds.

JT_2eighty
09-01-2011, 03:08 PM
Eh, well you could always sell the other half sets of RIP on the Talk Tennis Classifieds.

Yep, I used to string them in a full bed for a friend who didn't care what was in his racquet. Seemed to work fine for him, very similar to full RIP Control.

The Big Kahuna
09-03-2011, 12:54 PM
PLAYTEST UPDATE:

After 6 hours of play with the MSV Co-Focus 18g hybrid @ 48 (with KLIP Legend Tour 17g mains @ 52) in my Head Youtek Prestige Pro I am ready to declare this playtest to an end. Every time I put down this racquet to try one with another poly (Weiss Silverstring or Kirshbaum Pro Line II) while they both feel very good, I can wait to get back to the MSV. The feel and ball pocketing is SO much better. I have never felt strings with so much comfort, spin, control, and feel. The power is dialed down just a tad from the other two strings, but more balls go IN the court as a result. My groundstrokes and serves are much more consistent than they have been with anything else to date and it feels like the racquet is simply an part of my arm - it is almost as if I am "throwing the ball" back. The sweet spot feels huge and the picketing is insane! I am totally addicted. It is really like a whole new game for me. Fantastic!

gloumar
09-08-2011, 01:24 PM
I'm testing this one in its 1.27 jauge (nearly 16) version in a full setup on my Ozone TOUR MP 16*19.
Just love it. I come from a very soft and control copoly, and I keep the same ball-pocketing with the cofocus, but with significantly more pop and tension holding (the string doesnt move despite the pretty low tension and the open pattern).

Very cheap and effective string, worth a try :)
My new standard.

Smasher08
09-10-2011, 04:13 PM
Rainfall + damp court =

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Smasher08/1315577602-picsay.jpg

Update - 38 hours

Chalk this one up to a lesson learned the hard way. I spent half an hour using the roll-dry with my hitting partner and the court didn't seem too bad. I'd used these strings in drizzle before without any problem, and for the better part of an hour they were fine.

But then I noticed one of the mains swell up at an intersection. I tried putting in a string saver there, but to no avail. Four minutes later it snapped, right at that spot.

Lesson learned, RIP.

I have no doubt that it could have lasted much longer, but for the weather. And it definitely got spinnier and spinnier as it aged.

I'd definitely recommend this setup for rackets with 95 sq" and larger head sizes, especially those with open string patterns. For small headed rackets that have dense patterns, I think it takes too long to develop the spinniness that a thinner gauge can provide from the get-go -- unless, of course, you need strings with fantastic durability.

D-money
02-05-2013, 10:09 AM
Before:
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Smasher08/1310217792-picsay.jpg

After:
http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff488/Smasher08/IMG_20110709_195825.jpg

I've beet trying various poly mains since last October, including Lux, Sonic Pro, Focus Hex, and Turbotwist, and to various degrees have had quite a few arm issues cropping up, mostly minor. And about 5/6 weeks ago I put some string savers into a Turbotwist - Irradiated hybrid which stiffened it up dramatically and my shoulder started killing while serving. Unfortunately since more than a month of using Turbotwist - Spiral Flex (and frequent resting) hasn't gotten me to a point where I feel comfortable serving again, I decided that for whatever reason poly mains weren't for me and I wanted to try the most arm-friendly, spinny combination I could find.

Gut.

I'd tried gut twice before in the past: once in the mid 90s when I was a 3.5 and I really didn't notice anything different or special about it, and once about 2 years ago . . . when a stringer put in some that had way too much give and not nearly enough spin that I had them cut out after 2 hours(!). So thanks to some of the posts here at talk tennis, as well write ups about Fed and Djoker's setups, I was drawn to hybriding gut with poly crosses for spin.

While I was initially leaning towards trying Silverstring crosses, two big shout-outs go to Tennis Warehouse University's string friction rankings (http://twu.tennis-warehouse.com/learning_center/COFreporter.php) and the posts of talk tennis member TimothyO for turning me towards MSV crosses in general and Co-Focus in particular.

I'd wanted to start by trying a budget gut, figuring that if it was arm-friendly enough and at least comparable to Intellitour 17 (my personal reference string that I used for 7/8 years) then I'd be getting something that was good enough for my purposes and it didn't matter that the budget gut didn't perform nearly as well as VS.

I couldn't get a set of budget gut quickly so I found Pacific Classic Gut 16g and pulled the trigger. Had it strung at 51 x 48.


Initial Impressions

My stringer notched it ever so slightly in a few places but nothing that appeared to go through the coating or seemed problematic. Just tapping the stringbed against the palm of my hand was a revelation: no vibrations going through to my racket arm, just proper contact feel.

Felt great.

I hit the court for an hour today doing moderate paced hitting with a friend who's a 3.5. The first 3-4 minutes were weird as it felt slippery and gloopy and biological, like hitting with a jellyfish. The ball pocketing and trampolining were like nothing I'd encountered before since I've used predominantly stiff(ish) feeling strings, and although I didn't notice any special spin being put on like with MSV Focus Hex, I sure noticed that more balls were dropping in and bouncing higher than expected. After 10-15 minutes I'd adjusted enough to it that I began to feel comfortable plowing through my groundies, especially my backhands. A few forays up to the net revealed very comfortable feel and placement, combined with almost effortless power.

On my forehands especially, I noticed that I wasn't feeling any vibrations coming through to my arm anymore so I bit the bullet and tried a couple of serves --- slowly. Even without doing my full second serve motion, I immediately noticed the balls kicking up a good six feet high, about a foot higher than expected. My shoulder still wasn't ready to go full tilt, but this was clearly very promising.

And the strings may still be a few hours away from settling in and hitting their stride.


Specific Impressions

String movement: none
Spin potential: very good to excellent
Power: good to very good
Feel: very good to excellent
Arm-friendliness: outstanding

(Reference string: Intellitour 17g)

I'll be playing at least a couple more times before next weekend with stronger partners who'll really put me through my paces, and I'll update then.

And if anyone has any questions or items they'd like me to include in this review, please by all means ask.

I will be having something similar to this strung up on my racket. It will be a 2012 Pure drive roddick. I normally string polys at 50 to 52 lbs for normal co polys lower for stiffer polys and higher for the really soft ones like BHB7 or cyclone tour. I normally string multis and syn guts at 60lbs in full beds. I'm looking for more feel and comfort but with hopefully equal power, spin and control.
With that information what would you/or anyone here suggest stringing the mains and crosses in a setup of Klip armour pro natural gut 1.30 and MSV co. focus 1.23? I was thinking 60/56 or 57 for the crosses?

D-money
02-05-2013, 10:20 AM
I know this is an old one but I've got this setup on the way and I don't want to waste the gut stringing it too low. A little too low in the Roddick turns almost any string into a rocket launcher.