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View Full Version : Why does Federer match up well to Djokovic?


tennis_fan_182
08-28-2011, 10:50 AM
Don't talk about mental things - as slam champions these guys obviously have big mental toughness. Leave the issue of peaking at different times out as well - because we've seen that a post-peak Federer beat an absolute peak Djokovic.

What in Federer's GAME allows him to have had a good head-2-head against Djokovic through his career?

ie. the serve? The backhand (lol). The slice?

Please elaborate.

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 11:07 AM
Lots of people had a good head to head vs the old Djoko. I don't feel Fed matches well to the new Djoko at all. He lost to him 3 times on hard court this year including AO and IW.
People read way too much in that 1 RG loss. Djoko played a lousy match (maybe because of the 4 day break, who knows) and that's mainly what there is to it.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
08-28-2011, 11:10 AM
Lots of people had a good head to head vs the old Djoko. I don't feel Fed matches well to the new Djoko at all. He lost to him 3 times on hard court this year including AO and IW.
People read way too much in that 1 RG loss. Djoko played a lousy match (maybe because of the 4 day break, who knows) and that's mainly what there is to it.

If you knew anything about tennis you would see that Federer MADE Djokovic look "less good", something Ralphie is not capable of. Questions?

Telepatic
08-28-2011, 11:16 AM
If you knew anything about tennis you would see that Federer MADE Djokovic look "less good", something Ralphie is not capable of. Questions?

It's not hard to make someone look less good when the whole crowd is behind you..

Anyway, I think it's the slice, Fed bothered him with those and forced Nole to attack.
That along with strong serve which Nole lacks unlike Fed.

Netspirit
08-28-2011, 11:21 AM
What in Federer's GAME allows him to have had a good head-2-head against Djokovic through his career?

It's very simple. Djokovic is a righty, so he does not have that loopy spinny forehand-to-1HBH advantage. His backhand is relatively flat, non-wristy, and simply does not break down (prime) Federer's backhand.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
08-28-2011, 11:23 AM
It's not hard to make someone look less good when the whole crowd is behind you..

Anyway, I think it's the slice, Fed bothered him with those and forced Nole to attack.
That along with strong serve which Nole lacks unlike Fed.

These guys can deal with that sort of things. Dont you agree?

Yes. And Yes.

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 11:24 AM
If you knew anything about tennis you would see that Federer MADE Djokovic look "less good", something Ralphie is not capable of. Questions?




No, you're deluded. Djoko WAS less good in that match. It's a fact, not an impression. You cannot draw a trend or generalities from just 1 match, doesn't work. We'll talk about Fed matching up well to the new Djoko if he beats Djoko again. So far, this year, they've played 4 times and in 3 out of those 4 times Fed actually made Djoko seem extremely good.
If you're talking about 2009 and 2010, well, a lot of players could beat Djoko then including Nadal, Tsonga, Roddick, etc

TheMagicianOfPrecision
08-28-2011, 11:32 AM
No, you're deluded. Djoko WAS less good in that match. It's a fact, not an impression. You cannot draw a trend or generalities from just 1 match, doesn't work. We'll talk about Fed matching up well to the new Djoko if he beats Djoko again. So far, this year, they've played 4 times and in 3 out of those 4 times Fed actually made Djoko seem extremely good.
If you're talking about 2009 and 2010, well, a lot of players could beat Djoko then including Nadal, Tsonga, Roddick, etc

I am not deluded. You obviously didnt get my point, sure , Djokovic had way more UE:s in that match than in previous matches, matches against Ralphie, etc etc. You know why? Because Federer FORCED them. Thats what he does, throws your rhytm away, flat, spin, angles,slice, incredible serving.

djokovic2008
08-28-2011, 11:34 AM
No, you're deluded. Djoko WAS less good in that match. It's a fact, not an impression. You cannot draw a trend or generalities from just 1 match, doesn't work. We'll talk about Fed matching up well to the new Djoko if he beats Djoko again. So far, this year, they've played 4 times and in 3 out of those 4 times Fed actually made Djoko seem extremely good.
If you're talking about 2009 and 2010, well, a lot of players could beat Djoko then including Nadal, Tsonga, Roddick, etc

EXACTLY, especially in 09/10 was experimental djoker with all the todd martin stuff. The h2h this year is 3-1 to djoker. Everybody was beating djoker then he is atleast 20% better now!!!

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 11:37 AM
Fed managed to force them because Djoko's level was lower. He did it in 1 match out of 4, that's not enough to draw the kind of conclusions that you're drawing unless you want to make an argument that Djoko matches up well to Fed ON CLAY and even then it would be difficult to demonstrate a trend based on 1 MATCH only and the reason why there was only 1 match is because Fed didn't play well enough in the best of 3 on clay to get to meet Djoko. Wake me up when he does. As far as hard court is concerned, all I saw is complete domination from Djoko.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
08-28-2011, 11:41 AM
Fed managed to force them because Djoko's level was lower. He did it in 1 match out of 4, that's not enough to draw the kind of conclusions that you're drawing unless you want to make an argument that Djoko matches up well to Fed ON CLAY and even then it would be difficult to demonstrate a trend based on 1 MATCH only and the reason why there was only 1 match is because Fed didn't play well enough in the best of 3 on clay to get to meet Djoko. Wake me up when he does. As far as hard court is concerned, all I saw is complete domination from Djoko.

Djokovic managed to miss a lot because Federers level was higher that day. Lights out!

Nah, Federer made lots of errors in those matches, so you cant draw any conclusions from those 3 HC-meetings.

:-?

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 11:43 AM
Yes, you can start drawing stats from 3 matches in 3 different events whereas 1 match is just an isolated case.

tennis_fan_182
08-28-2011, 11:45 AM
Yes, you can start drawing stats from 3 matches in 3 different events whereas 1 match is just an isolated case.

I wonder if Nadal picks his butt so much because your head is jammed so far up it?

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 11:48 AM
This thread has nothing to do with Nadal.

Bryan Swartz
08-28-2011, 11:48 AM
He has a pretty darn good point. 1 match is a far worse sample size than three and makes for a much more reliable trend. That's simply a fact.

TheMagicianOfPrecision
08-28-2011, 11:49 AM
Yes, you can start drawing stats from 3 matches in 3 different events whereas 1 match is just an isolated case.

1 surface all 3 matches

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 11:51 AM
How can it be more reliable if it's a worse sample? I'm confused.

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 11:53 AM
1 surface all 3 matches
yes... er and the RG match was just 1 match on 1 surface.
3 matches on 1 surface give more info than 1 match on 1 surface, no :confused:

TheMagicianOfPrecision
08-28-2011, 12:19 PM
yes... er and the RG match was just 1 match on 1 surface.
3 matches on 1 surface give more info than 1 match on 1 surface, no :confused:

Slightly!!

TMF
08-28-2011, 12:22 PM
Lots of people had a good head to head vs the old Djoko. I don't feel Fed matches well to the new Djoko at all. He lost to him 3 times on hard court this year including AO and IW.
People read way too much in that 1 RG loss. Djoko played a lousy match (maybe because of the 4 day break, who knows) and that's mainly what there is to it.

Fed definitely match up well while Nadal is his worst nightmare against Nole. Clay is fed's worst surface but nadal's best, but Fed is the one who can beat Nole on clay. Nole would have beaten Nadal at the FO this year, only he was relieved when Fed(match up better) took Nole out.

TMF
08-28-2011, 12:23 PM
Fed managed to force them because Djoko's level was lower. He did it in 1 match out of 4, that's not enough to draw the kind of conclusions that you're drawing unless you want to make an argument that Djoko matches up well to Fed ON CLAY and even then it would be difficult to demonstrate a trend based on 1 MATCH only and the reason why there was only 1 match is because Fed didn't play well enough in the best of 3 on clay to get to meet Djoko. Wake me up when he does. As far as hard court is concerned, all I saw is complete domination from Djoko.

You didn't see the match. Nole was consistently playing high level throughout the year hence his winning streak. The FO semi was even higher quality than Rome and Madrid.

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 12:29 PM
Fed definitely match up well while Nadal is his worst nightmare against Nole. Clay is fed's worst surface but nadal's best, but Fed is the one who can beat Nole on clay. Nole would have beaten Nadal at the FO this year, only he was relieved when Fed(match up better) took Nole out.



Not true. If you're talking in general, both Fed and Nadal lead their head to head vs Djoko. About RG, you cannot tell whether Nadal would have beaten Djoko or not. Djoko was playing subpar and Nadal is another animal at RG (same as M-C).
Clay is not Fed's worst surface anymore, it's his best as demonstrated by the fact the only slam final Fed made this year is RG. Let's see what happens at USO. Right now Fed is 1-3 vs Djoko. That doesn't indicate "matching up well" on any other surface than clay.

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 12:33 PM
You didn't see the match. Nole was consistently playing high level throughout the year hence his winning streak. The FO semi was even higher quality than Rome and Madrid.


Yes, I saw and I thought Djoko played a terrible match like he did in 2010 when he got ousted by Melzer and in 2009 by Kohl. RG seems to be Djoko's worst tournament so far. It's weid because he has been doing well in the clay masters.

Clarky21
08-28-2011, 12:34 PM
Lots of people had a good head to head vs the old Djoko. I don't feel Fed matches well to the new Djoko at all. He lost to him 3 times on hard court this year including AO and IW.
People read way too much in that 1 RG loss. Djoko played a lousy match (maybe because of the 4 day break, who knows) and that's mainly what there is to it.

Why can't you give credit to Federer for coming out and playing a great match in that RG semi? He served wonderfully,moved the best I have seen him in a long time,and simply outplayed Djokovic. To me it's just more proof that Djokovic is taking advantage of an old Federer and a burnt out declining Nadal because once Fed showed up and actually played like he can,Novak lost like he used to do more often than not. It's no coincidence.

And you should also be thanking Federer that he was able to beat Novak or else Nadal would be slamless this year. I know you loathe Federer,but give the dude his due for coming out and doing what Nadal has failed to do in 5 tries this year.

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 12:38 PM
Why can't you give credit to Federer for coming out and playing a great match in that RG semi? He served wonderfully,moved the best I have seen him in a long time,and simply outplayed Djokovic. To me it's just more proof that Djokovic is taking advantage of an old Federer and a burnt out declining Nadal because once Fed showed up and actually played like he can,Novak lost like he used to do more often than not. It's no coincidence.

And you should also be thanking Federer that he was able to beat Novak or else Nadal would be slamless this year. I know you loathe Federer,but give the dude his due for coming out and doing what Nadal has failed to do in 5 tries this year.



As I already said, Rafa is incredibly determined at RG. I think if he had played Novak he would have had a better chance of beating him in the RG final than in the W final and if he had won the RG final, he would probably have won W too. So, it was actually a disservice to Rafa for Fed to beat Djoko at RG and yes I give credit to Fed for beating Djoko (although it didn't help him win the event anyway). All I'm saying is that it's only 1 match and one cannot draw general conclusions of "matching well" from just 1 match when one is 1-3 overall for the year vs another player.

kevoT
08-28-2011, 12:43 PM
Because he still has mental confidence over djoko!

Clarky21
08-28-2011, 12:50 PM
As I already said, Rafa is incredibly determined at RG. I think if he had played Novak he would have had a better chance of beating him in the RG final than in the W final and if he had won the RG final, he would probably have won W too. So, it was actually a disservice to Rafa for Fed to beat Djoko at RG and yes I give credit to Fed for beating Djoko (although it didn't help him win the event anyway). All I'm saying is that it's only 1 match and one cannot draw general conclusions of "matching well" from just 1 match when one is 1-3 overall for the year vs another player.

Nadal had absolutely zero chance of beating Novak if he would have made it to the final at RG. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. He could not even take a set off of Novak in 2 chances at Madrid and Rome. He was beaten badly,and it was humiliating. You are simply clouded by your Fed hate to an extreme degree. You know full well Federer did Nadal a tremendous favor,and gifted him a slam he would have lost otherwise. And if not for Federer Novak Djokovic,out of all the other players who have loads more ability and talent than he does,would have won all 4 slams this year. The fact that Roger stopped that nonsense from happening is worthy of a standing ovation.

TennisFan3
08-28-2011, 12:54 PM
As I already said, Rafa is incredibly determined at RG. I think if he had played Novak he would have had a better chance of beating him in the RG final than in the W final

Grass is easily the best surface for Nadal to handle Djokovic simply because Nadal moves FAR better on grass than Djokovic does. Also Novak's backhand cross court is NOT as big a weapon on grass as it is on clay/hardcourts (because of the inconsistent bounce on grass and skidding of the surface).

Djoko's game on clay matches up much better to Nadal. He gave a peak 2008 F.O Nadal good fight too. Did you even see the 2 clay matches they played this year? Novak's level in the Rome 2011 Final was insane. In both Rome and Madrid, Djoko handled Nadal easily. It is more likely that Djokovic would have handled Nadal comfortably at the F.O final, than he did in Wimbledon where Nadal won a set.

Evan77
08-28-2011, 12:56 PM
Who cares? Novak lost a match against one of the best players in the world. Roger can still play very well.

Is there any top player, nowadays, who won everything everywhere? Fed beat young Novak a lot. He was a dominant player at the time. I respect his win at RG.

But please.... Novak won 57 matches this year.

You can NOT compare Djokovic and Federer now. Novak is 24, Fed is 30yo.

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 01:16 PM
Nadal had absolutely zero chance of beating Novak if he would have made it to the final at RG. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. He could not even take a set off of Novak in 2 chances at Madrid and Rome. He was beaten badly,and it was humiliating.




That's an opinion. Feel free to have it and I'll keep mine, that's fine. It has absolutely nothing to do with this thread whatsoever. This thread is about whether current Fed matches up well to Djoko and the answer is: no, he doesn't. Not an opinion, fact. 1-3 means Fed doesn't lead or dominate Djoko in any way + 2 of Fed's losses were in straights.

Gaudio2004
08-28-2011, 01:25 PM
This article explains it all (the reasons why Federer plays well against Djokovic, with images and video) - and it explains how he matched up so well against Djokovic this year.

http://backhanddropshot.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/pushing-the-boundaries/

His backhand is one of the key reasons why he is in the 1% of players Djokovic is hopeless against when Federer is on his game. When his groundstrokes are on and + his serve - Djokovic is helpless.

Evan77
08-28-2011, 01:56 PM
This article explains it all (the reasons why Federer plays well against Djokovic, with images and video) - and it explains how he matched up so well against Djokovic this year.

http://backhanddropshot.wordpress.com/2011/07/30/pushing-the-boundaries/

His backhand is one of the key reasons why he is in the 1% of players Djokovic is hopeless against when Federer is on his game. When his groundstrokes are on and + his serve - Djokovic is helpless.
Um, how is Novak helpless against Roger? I'm sorry but this is so stupid. Who is #1? Who def. Roger 3 times this year?

What did Roger win this year? I think 1 tournament. And where was it? I can't even remember. Please.

Clarky21
08-28-2011, 02:05 PM
Grass is easily the best surface for Nadal to handle Djokovic simply because Nadal moves FAR better on grass than Djokovic does. Also Novak's backhand cross court is NOT as big a weapon on grass as it is on clay/hardcourts (because of the inconsistent bounce on grass and skidding of the surface).

Djoko's game on clay matches up much better to Nadal. He gave a peak 2008 F.O Nadal good fight too. Did you even see the 2 clay matches they played this year? Novak's level in the Rome 2011 Final was insane. In both Rome and Madrid, Djoko handled Nadal easily. It is more likely that Djokovic would have handled Nadal comfortably at the F.O final, than he did in Wimbledon where Nadal won a set.


I don't really think Nadal moves better than Djokovic on any surface these days. That Wimbledon loss was so pathetic it was ridiculous. Nadal will never beat Djokovic again is what I have surmised. He has declined too much mentally and physically to do it. I do think Nadal of 2008 would have beaten Djokovic pretty handily though in that final,but that dude is long,long gone.

MichaelNadal
08-28-2011, 02:08 PM
Fed definitely match up well while Nadal is his worst nightmare against Nole. Clay is fed's worst surface but nadal's best, but Fed is the one who can beat Nole on clay. Nole would have beaten Nadal at the FO this year, only he was relieved when Fed(match up better) took Nole out.

You guys have to quit with that. Nadal was retrieving like a madman in that final, you never know what would have happened.

celoft
08-28-2011, 02:08 PM
Federer and Murray have the game and variety to beat Djokovic.

NadalAgassi
08-28-2011, 02:12 PM
The jist of what veroniquem is saying is true. It does not make sense to say Federer matches up well with Djokovic right now since he won 1 match. Djokovic is 3-1 vs Federer this year and all 3 wins were on their mutual best surface of hard courts, with Federer winning only 1 set. The RG semis was an aberration really. Federer never plays at that level these days, maybe 1% of the time, so is unlikely to happen again.

Also in general I dont even see how Federer is a bad matchup for Djokovic. Djokovic has won 50% of their matches since he first became a top player in March 2007, despite that until this year Federer was always the better and higher ranked player. If anything that suggest the reverse might be true. It is funny how people say Djokovic is a bad matchup for Nadal and Federer is a bad matchup for Djokovic. Why are their head to heads similar then, and why has Djokovic done better vs Federer in slams than Nadal then. Unless one is basically saying Nadal is the much better player (relative to Federer) and thus ignoring matchups so should expected to do much worse against, LOL!

tennis_fan_182
08-28-2011, 02:19 PM
Federer and Murray have the game and variety to beat Djokovic.

Did you watch the Australian Open 2011 final?

Murray was playing as well as he possibly can, Djokovic looked in poor form (for him) and Murray got hammered.

Smasher08
08-28-2011, 02:19 PM
You guys have to quit with that. Nadal was retrieving like a madman in that final, you never know what would have happened.

Nadal has a huge psychological advantage over Fed, especially on clay. It allowed him to weather the storm and gradually find the chink in Fed's armour. On any other surface, Rafa would've been toast. On indoor carpet, it would've been a laugher.

But Nole's game matches up much better against Rafa's because he can counterpunch so effectively, and high loopy shots to a two handed backhand aren't quite as effective.

Different story again with Fed v Djoker. Their games qctually match up well against each other: both play big money tennis, and it's usually a question of who got out of bed feeling better that morning.

That Djoker's undefeated streak ended when Fed was on his "worst" surface should be a very interesting piece of trivia in the back of Nole's mind going into New York.

Also, it's possible that with the ailments Djok and Rafa have, Fed could very well sneak by them to the title.

NadalAgassi
08-28-2011, 02:29 PM
Also it is silly to just presume Djokovic would have beaten Nadal in the French Open final.

First of all beating Nadal in those Masters finals was huge, but it still isnt RG which is the hardest place in the World to beat Nadal (other than maybe Monte Carlo). Nadal in his prime has lost at Rome before (he lost to a washed up Ferrero once) and he definitely can lose to Madrid which is his worst clay court ever pretty much.

Secondly as veroniquem said Djokovic has been dissapointing at Roland Garros to date. He should have made the final in both 2009 and 2011 and lost in major upsets both time. He also had a real bad loss there last year. He has never made a French Open final which is very surprising given that he has overall been the 2nd best clay courter (outside of Roland Garros) since 2008 now.

Thirdly of course the simple fact he couldnt even beat Federer a much worse clay courter than Nadal.

celoft
08-28-2011, 02:33 PM
Did you watch the Australian Open 2011 final?

Murray was playing as well as he possibly can, Djokovic looked in poor form (for him) and Murray got hammered.

Murray has slam finals fear.

veroniquem
08-28-2011, 02:40 PM
If anybody has a theory as to why Djoko does so well in the clay masters but not in RG, I'd be happy to read it because I don't really understand it myself. He's won AO and W and made 2 USO finals. What's up with losing to lesser players like Kohl and Melzer (or Fed ha ha j/k) at RG (despite demonstrating in other events he can play real well on clay)?

zagor
08-28-2011, 03:12 PM
Also it is silly to just presume Djokovic would have beaten Nadal in the French Open final.

Obviously we'll never know for sure but considering everything-the mental advantage Novak build over Nadal this year and the fact that he even beat him at Wimbledon I'd reckon the majority of non-Nadal fans would have favoured Novak in this hypothetical match.

First of all beating Nadal in those Masters finals was huge, but it still isnt RG which is the hardest place in the World to beat Nadal (other than maybe Monte Carlo). Nadal in his prime has lost at Rome before (he lost to a washed up Ferrero once) and he definitely can lose to Madrid which is his worst clay court ever pretty much.

Not RG but all those masters wins had the effect of Novak getting into Nadal's head, that's something which Nadal himself and even tio Toni admitted so I can't see how can anyone dispute that to any serious degree.

Keep in mind that Novak's easiest wins over Nadal this year came on clay and that he even beat him on Wimbledon grass which was arguably the best chance for Nadal to make a stand for several reasons:

-Novak's worst surface and Nadal's by far 2nd best.

-Huge pressure on Novak because Wimbledon was always his dream, you could see him starting to get tight in the 3d set.

-Nadal himself has looked more convincing considering everything at Wimbledon this year than at FO going into the final, heck he played better at Wimbledon this year than last.


Secondly as veroniquem said Djokovic has been dissapointing at Roland Garros to date. He should have made the final in both 2009 and 2011 and lost in major upsets both time. He also had a real bad loss there last year. He has never made a French Open final which is very surprising given that he has overall been the 2nd best clay courter (outside of Roland Garros) since 2008 now.

You aren't seriously comparing Kohlschreiber to Fed are you? Even old Fed.

Thirdly of course the simple fact he couldnt even beat Federer a much worse clay courter than Nadal.

Nope, not the way tennis works, never has been and never will be. If we go by that logic we could get to all sort of crazy conclusions like for example:

-Murray and Bellucci are better CC masters players than Nadal, after all they gave Novak a much better fight than Nadal who went down meekly in straights.

-In 2008 USO Andreev played better than Djokovic and Murray

-Krajicek is a much better grasscourter than Becker/Goran

-Goran is a better grasscourter than Becker

-This year's FO Isner played better CC tennis than Fed

etc. etc.

As I said it doesn't work that way, tennis is about match-ups. Most people who realize that understand why old Fed got the win over Novak while Nadal failed in 5 tries or why Nadal beat Fed so easily at FO this year even though Fed played better CC tennis throughout the whole tourney or why Davydenko is 5-1 againt Nadal on HC. etc.

zagor
08-28-2011, 03:15 PM
You guys have to quit with that. Nadal was retrieving like a madman in that final, you never know what would have happened.

Dude he was playing Fed, he was solid which is enough to beat the Swiss at FO. Against Novak he would have had to actually play a great match, whether he would have been able to do that we'll never know for sure.

IvanisevicServe
08-28-2011, 03:15 PM
Djokovic hits flat, and Federer generally likes pace...although these days, he gets overpowered by the "swing for the fences" guys like Tsonga and Berdych.

Djokovic hits hard, but he doesn't hit so hard that Federer is getting pushed off the court.

rcglider
08-28-2011, 03:15 PM
I wonder if Nadal picks his butt so much because your head is jammed so far up it?

LOL!! This is Gold. :)

MichaelNadal
08-28-2011, 03:27 PM
Dude he was playing Fed, he was solid which is enough to beat the Swiss at FO. Against Novak he would have had to actually play a great match, whether he would have been able to do that we'll never know for sure.

He did play well outside of the first set. Federer played fantastically. Im not saying by any means he would have won, but you can't say the reverse either. The match would have had to been played. If Novak lost to Federer, he may have been ripe for Rafa to take as well.

DjokovicForTheWin
08-28-2011, 03:39 PM
Nahh, it's wishful thinking by the *********s that Nadal would have stood a chance against Djokovic if he made it to the FO final. Djoker would have destroyed Nadal in straight sets whether he played his best or not. It would all be up to Djoker.

NadalAgassi
08-28-2011, 04:20 PM
Nope, not the way tennis works, never has been and never will be. If we go by that logic we could get to all sort of crazy conclusions like for example:

-Murray and Bellucci are better CC masters players than Nadal, after all they gave Novak a much better fight than Nadal who went down meekly in straights.

-In 2008 USO Andreev played better than Djokovic and Murray

-Krajicek is a much better grasscourter than Becker/Goran

-Goran is a better grasscourter than Becker

-This year's FO Isner played better CC tennis than Fed

etc. etc.

As I said it doesn't work that way, tennis is about match-ups. Most people who realize that understand why old Fed got the win over Novak while Nadal failed in 5 tries or why Nadal beat Fed so easily at FO this year even though Fed played better CC tennis throughout the whole tourney or why Davydenko is 5-1 againt Nadal on HC. etc.

Like I have already said this matchup theory is wrong in this case. Djokovic is NOT some horrible matchup for Nadal and some great one for Federer, unless you are saying Nadal is so much better than Federer that one should be expected to do much worse vs him and if they dont someting is wrong. Federer and Nadal have virtually idential career records vs Djokovic. Djokovic has beaten Federer more times in slams than Nadal, so in fact Federer is the much easier opponent for him in best of 5 thus far.

If Djokovic wasnt playing well enough to even take Federer to 5 sets he was never playing well enough to best Nadal in a best of 5 when Nadal is contrary to TW myth not a significantly easier matchup for him than Federer, and in fact a worse one in best of 5, and when Federer is nowhere near the clay courter Nadal is.

Djokovic has beaten Nadal 5 times this year since overall he is playing the best tennis in the World this year. Djokovic lost to Federer at Roland Garros since as usual he choked and blew it at Roland Garros like he does every year since he last lost to Nadal there. The end.

MichaelNadal
08-28-2011, 04:24 PM
Nahh, it's wishful thinking by the *********s that Nadal would have stood a chance against Djokovic if he made it to the FO final. Djoker would have destroyed Nadal in straight sets whether he played his best or not. It would all be up to Djoker.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/mikeynitro/2900725620_8e08a14d1c.jpg

mistik
08-28-2011, 04:30 PM
well people can say what ever they want fed lost to Djoko more than Rafa on GS stage.One win year this year At RG doesnt mean that fed matches up well with Djoko.Sometimes people forget that Rafa did have 16.7 h2h record against Djoko until this year,which was so much better than feds record towards Djoko.As i said before fed lost djoko more on a major stage than Rafa did.Fed matches up well against Djoko is nothing than city myth promoted by poor fed fans.

Pwned
08-28-2011, 04:36 PM
well people can say what ever they want fed lost to Djoko more than Rafa on GS stage.One win year this year At RG doesnt mean that fed matches up well with Djoko.Sometimes people forget that Rafa did have 16.7 h2h record against Djoko until this year,which was so much better than feds record towards Djoko.As i said before fed lost djoko more on a major stage than Rafa did.Fed matches up well against Djoko is nothing than city myth promoted by poor fed fans.

A Djokovic's 3 wins against Fed don't mean anything. Especially since Federer won 3 in a row at the end of last year.

mistik
08-28-2011, 04:46 PM
A Djokovic's 3 wins against Fed don't mean anything. Especially since Federer won 3 in a row at the end of last year.

Fed beat Djoko 14 times Rafa also beat him 16 times. fed lost to djoko 3 times in major level.Rafa only lost 1.i dont see huge diffrence between 14 to 10 H2H record fed has against Djoko with the one Rafa has H2H 16 to 12.

DjokovicForTheWin
08-28-2011, 04:52 PM
I wonder why Djokovic would all of a sudden decide to play poorly against Federer at the FO semi (risking losing his undefeated streak), and not decide to play poorly against Nadal at Wimby. Strange.

zagor
08-28-2011, 04:53 PM
Like I have already said this matchup theory is wrong in this case. Djokovic is NOT some horrible matchup for Nadal and some great one for Federer, unless you are saying Nadal is so much better than Federer that one should be expected to do much worse vs him and if they dont someting is wrong. Federer and Nadal have virtually idential career records vs Djokovic. Djokovic has beaten Federer more times in slams than Nadal, so in fact Federer is the much easier opponent for him in best of 5 thus far.

If Djokovic wasnt playing well enough to even take Federer to 5 sets he was never playing well enough to best Nadal in a best of 5 when Nadal is contrary to TW myth not a significantly easier matchup for him than Federer, and in fact a worse one in best of 5, and when Federer is nowhere near the clay courter Nadal is.

It's not black and white, match-up dynamics can change over time due to many factors. Sure overall Novak has similar records against both Fed and Nadal and before this year he has done horrible in big matches against Nadal so I also wouldn't put it as simple as he's a bad match-up for Nadal and good one for Fed, however this year for whatever various reasons people come up with Novak feels very comfortable playing against Nadal, he just figured him out(for now, Nadal might adapt and change something).

Let's look at Rome and Madrid masters, sure not RG but Nadal still plays great tennis in CC masters as well(heck just last year he made a clean sweep), Novak was much more comfortable against Nadal than against Bellucci and Murray, that tells us something, again not denying Nadal is harder to beat at RG but really no way should those guys have Nole on the ropes while Nadal gets routined in the final. I mean if we use your logic how could Novak have a chance against a healthy and rested Nadal(no blisters or tough match beforehand, if anything Novak had a marathon against Murray and still straightsetted Rafa the next day) when Murray/Bellucci pushed him to the brink, it makes no sense.

Even at Wimbledon, Tomic and Tsonga gave Novak a tougher match than Nadal in the final, he struggled a lot against both of them(especially Tomic who could have won if he had more experience)but again was beating Nadal comfortably until the notion that he's about to win Wimbledon sank into him and he started missing routine shots in the 3d set.

My point is not who is a harder match-up for Novak in the grand scheme of things but how things stand right now. It is my opinion that Fed even in the twilight of his career if he's playing well is more dangerous for current Novak than Nadal unless Nadal changes something in his game(he may already had, we'll see at USO). It is my opinion that Novak would have beaten Nadal in the FO final this year if he got past Fed, he's just way too comfortable in that match-up right now (not throghout their whole careers).

Djokovic has beaten Nadal 5 times this year since overall he is playing the best tennis in the World this year. Djokovic lost to Federer at Roland Garros since as usual he choked and blew it at Roland Garros like he does every year since he last lost to Nadal there. The end.

Yes, he has beaten Nadal 5 times but we're talking about RG here, clay and both time he routined him on that surface this year so given that I completely disagree with the notion that Novak wouldn't have stood a chance in the final simply because he couldn't beat Fed(who again is a completely different opponent and one more dangerous for Novak currently), in fact as I said IMO Novak would have beaten Nadal in RG final this year if they played.

As for RG, Novak struggled even more at Wimbledon throghout the years yet he won it this time beating Nadal in the final and as I said it's not like he looked convincing there at all until the final, he struggled against Marcos, Tomic and Tsonga who are all much worse grasscourters than Nadal to a much higher degree than even Nadal is better claycourter than Fed.

zagor
08-28-2011, 04:56 PM
Fed beat Djoko 14 times Rafa also beat him 16 times. fed lost to djoko 3 times in major level.Rafa only lost 1.i dont see huge diffrence between 14 to 10 H2H record fed has against Djoko with the one Rafa has H2H 16 to 12.

The difference being that Novak is about the same age as Nadal while there's a 6 year gap between him and Fed so it is expected Nadal will do better against Novak than Fed.

zagor
08-28-2011, 05:03 PM
He did play well outside of the first set. Federer played fantastically. Im not saying by any means he would have won, but you can't say the reverse either. The match would have had to been played. If Novak lost to Federer, he may have been ripe for Rafa to take as well.

It's not just about the level of play, mental aspect is very important in tennis, especially when two top players face off.

Fed's level was high enough to beat Nadal but as usual he choked in the crucial moments. Nadal was playing good but that was aided by the fact that he was facing Fed against whome he is very comfortable and knows that given the mental edge he has in the match-up if his concentration drops Fed will not pounce but will rather gift him the lead back. Against Novak he would have had to keep his guard up all the time and would be much more nervous.

Overall there's was no suspense to that match whatsoever after the 1st set to anyone who understands the game.

mistik
08-28-2011, 05:21 PM
The difference being that Novak is about the same age as Nadal while there's a 6 year gap between him and Fed so it is expected Nadal will do better against Novak than Fed. There is no indication Fed matches so well against djokovic.Nadal has an amazing 16 7 (3 of his defeat came in 09 where he was losing everybody inside of the top 10 after the injury)record against Novak until this year.Fed 1 victory towards Novak this year doesnt mean he matches up so well towards Djoko.

DjokovicForTheWin
08-28-2011, 05:30 PM
I don't think either Fed or Nadal are a good match up against Djoker 2.0. A good match up would have a much more favourable H2H against the new Djoker. That being said Fed is a better match up than Nadal is against Djoker, relatively speaking, given the current year's H2H. of 3-1 and 5-0 AND add to the fact that Nadal is still in his peak while Fed is way past prime. This last part is very important in that it is very telling that Nadal's best is no match for Djoker. Fed really can't play at his 2006 level anymore for consistent periods.

mcr619619
08-28-2011, 11:50 PM
Thats what he does, throws your rhytm away, flat, spin, angles,slice, incredible serving.

this...

just like how rafa always do to fed....topspin to the bh,topspin to the bh,topspin to the bh, and topspin to the bh...such a great tactics, unpredictable..

Murrayfan31
08-29-2011, 12:43 AM
Fed is less predictable than Nadal. Simple as that. Djokovic likes a rhythm to feed off and hates being wrong footed.

TheTruth
08-29-2011, 12:57 AM
I don't think 1-3 is a good matchup.

Even with 5 straight losses Nadal still leads the h2h, which could mean Novak is just hot right now, and no one knows how long this will continue.

Novak is beating everyone this year. No one is matching up well. And if you feel that Fed matches up so well, then similarly that means Murray does too, since he also won one match.

Fed matched up well against Novak when Novak was younger. Now in his prime, not so much.

TennisFan3
08-29-2011, 02:11 AM
It's not black and white, match-up dynamics can change over time due to many factors. Sure overall Novak has similar records against both Fed and Nadal and before this year he has done horrible in big matches against Nadal so I also wouldn't put it as simple as he's a bad match-up for Nadal and good one for Fed, however this year for whatever various reasons people come up with Novak feels very comfortable playing against Nadal, he just figured him out(for now, Nadal might adapt and change something).

Let's look at Rome and Madrid masters, sure not RG but Nadal still plays great tennis in CC masters as well(heck just last year he made a clean sweep), Novak was much more comfortable against Nadal than against Bellucci and Murray, that tells us something, again not denying Nadal is harder to beat at RG but really no way should those guys have Nole on the ropes while Nadal gets routined in the final. I mean if we use your logic how could Novak have a chance against a healthy and rested Nadal(no blisters or tough match beforehand, if anything Novak had a marathon against Murray and still straightsetted Rafa the next day) when Murray/Bellucci pushed him to the brink, it makes no sense.

Even at Wimbledon, Tomic and Tsonga gave Novak a tougher match than Nadal in the final, he struggled a lot against both of them(especially Tomic who could have won if he had more experience)but again was beating Nadal comfortably until the notion that he's about to win Wimbledon sank into him and he started missing routine shots in the 3d set.

My point is not who is a harder match-up for Novak in the grand scheme of things but how things stand right now. It is my opinion that Fed even in the twilight of his career if he's playing well is more dangerous for current Novak than Nadal unless Nadal changes something in his game(he may already had, we'll see at USO). It is my opinion that Novak would have beaten Nadal in the FO final this year if he got past Fed, he's just way too comfortable in that match-up right now (not throghout their whole careers).


Good post. I agree with most of this and I've been trying to say this over here. Djoko just matches up much better against Nadal than he does against Fed or even Murray.

Obviously Nadal is not stupid. I'm sure he knows that too. The only way I can see Nadal overcoming this is if he switches back to the aggressive tactics that he had when he was a teen in 2004/early 2005. That said, it's NOT easy to change your basic game after so many years. Just ask Roddick..