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View Full Version : Toni: Djokovic is Better Than us


OddJack
09-02-2011, 09:06 AM
Well, we already knew that, but one of the reasons he brings up is interesting.
He pulls the age card! Rafa is old at 25, and he will not be playing in few years!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/02/rafael-nadal-novak-djokovic_n_946561.html

kishnabe
09-02-2011, 09:09 AM
LOL Djokovic in 24...the Age card means nothing till 29+!

sureshs
09-02-2011, 09:10 AM
Humbalito is playing his mind games again, positioning himself as the no-pressure underdog

celoft
09-02-2011, 09:10 AM
It's all about mileage, folks.

Nadal has played many more matches than Nole.

Clarky21
09-02-2011, 09:13 AM
He is right. Nadal is done,as I have been saying for a while now,and Toni pretty much just admitted it.

CDestroyer
09-02-2011, 09:20 AM
It's all about mileage, folks.

Nadal has played many more matches than Nole.

Good point.

If we are talking car metaphors Nadals got about a million miles, transmission is very shaky and his engine needs to be rebuilt.

Meanwhile Nole has about 350 thousand miles and is running in peak shape, mentally fresh as a new oil and filter change.

Mr Goodwrench out.

Great Uncle Bulgaria
09-02-2011, 09:40 AM
I am sure Toni is a really good bloke but what is this 'us'? Brilliant coach he may be but it is Rafael who plays the matches.

TMF
09-02-2011, 09:42 AM
At 25, Nadal has played some 600 matches, still far below 1,000. Past players have played 1000+ matches, so Nadal still has a lot left in the gas tank.

Toni is just downplaying his nephew's chances in case if he's not winning, as usual. Too chicken to admit the truth.

Clarky21
09-02-2011, 09:50 AM
(You are just too easy for Toni.... Let's hope Nadal is just a gullible, because that is what Toni is hoping...)

Toni practically runs Nadal's life,so I can bet you he probably believes the same way Toni does. He looks like he would rather be anywhere but on a tennis court,so I am sure that Toni's comments are not too far from the truth.

BeHappy
09-02-2011, 09:57 AM
Nadal always says the other guy is better to take the pressure off himself. He said Michael Russel was he favorite in their Wimbledon first round match didn't he?

Clarky21
09-02-2011, 09:57 AM
(Good. The sooner Nadal treats Djokovic like a God [as he did with Federer] the sooner the 16-12 h2h will increase to 20-12 in 2012)

Sorry,but this post is worthy of a serious :lol:

maxpotapov
09-02-2011, 10:10 AM
Well, we already knew that, but one of the reasons he brings up is interesting.
He pulls the age card! Rafa is old at 25, and he will not be playing in few years!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/02/rafael-nadal-novak-djokovic_n_946561.html

Do not forget, that for Nadal it seems like he's been playing for a 100 years on tour (http://tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=12279&zoneid=25)

MichaelNadal
09-02-2011, 10:25 AM
I think Nadal's career depends on what happens in 2012. I do NOT see him as a guy that would stick around while losing to people he knows he should beat or in the south end of the top 10. If he has a good year I expect him to stay. If he doesn't win a major, I think 2013 will be it for him, if not the end of 2012.

TennisFan3
09-02-2011, 10:25 AM
Toni is saying exactly what a lot of us have been saying. The part about 7 yrs being on top has been said adnauseum by Namelessone, I and several others..

Nadal was already declining, but the rise of Djokovic has further accelerated and exacerbated this. Obviously it's easier to continue if you win, but right now Nadal has nothing to push himself and nothing to feel good about.

Basically, if he doesn't do much in Wimb/F.O 2012, I think he will probably call it a day shortly after.

Of course that will make many people happy here, nonetheless, it will be a loss for tennis in general. Especially if Fed also quits in the next couple of yrs or so.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 10:40 AM
Toni is saying exactly what a lot of us have been saying. The part about 7 yrs being on top has been said adnauseum by Namelessone, I and several others..

Nadal was already declining, but the rise of Djokovic has further accelerated and exacerbated this. Obviously it's easier to continue if you win, but right now Nadal has nothing to push himself and nothing to feel good about.

Basically, if he doesn't do much in Wimb/F.O 2012, I think he will probably call it a day shortly after.

Of course that will make many people happy here, nonetheless, it will be a loss for tennis in general. Especially if Fed also quits in the next couple of yrs or so.

Don't worry, the trolls will not follow logic.

Nice to see Tony telling it like it is. One thing I always liked about him, his brutal honesty.

As I said before, Fed, with the easiest game on the body in modern history(no retirements in his career and very few ailments overall), started declining in his 7th consecutive year winning slams but due to his massive talent and easy game, he can still make major damage.

Nadal is in his 7th year winning slams, has started winning earlier than Fed, but his game is about wear and tear(missed 3 slams due to injury by age 25, missed an entire clay season, has tendinitis in both knees, etc.). These factors, coupled with Djoko's amazing rise(and the fact that he is a bad matchup) does not bode well for Rafa in the future. Everybody says that Djoko is his main problem and that is true in a sense but Nadal doesn't have the same will to improve his game anymore and he seems to not give his all anymore. Look how he lost to Dodig and Fish. Lost to Ivan after winning the first and slipping mentally again around the tiebreaks. Never being in the match with Fish. It's like you are watching someone else, not Rafa Nadal.

The thing is, maybe he can't give anymore, which is something few of us take into account. And maybe Rafa can't admit it to himself and just keeps rolling along, hoping to stumble into some titles.

Lack of fitness, no more mental edge, bored/annoyed on court, these are not things associated with Nadal, but that's where he is right now. Also, in tennis age, Rafa is 27'ish IMO.

I am however surprised that the trolls didn't pick on this statement:

""[The ATP] has to keep in mind the health of the players' future," he said. "They don't care about the health. All they care about is the show and the money."

"When you finish your tour career, you should be a normal person," Nadal said. "The people who play the most [tennis] are the people who win the most," he added, citing former World No. 1 Gustavo Kuerten, who had injuries derail his career, as an example.

It's not coincidental that American players rarely succeed at Roland Garros, or on the clay circuit at all for that matter. While Europeans play on different surfaces when training, most American players grow up playing solely on hard surfaces.

"Americans love fast games, but that's not necessarily what is best," Toni Nadal said. "Slower is better for spectators and easier on the players, like clay or grass courts. It may seem like I'm trying to favor Rafa, but it's obvious that hard courts have the most negative impact."

OddJack
09-02-2011, 10:40 AM
It's interesting, while Rodge at 30 is trying to say he is still young, Nadal at 25 is trying to say he is old. What does that tell you? If you ask me it's the love for the game. Nadal is not enjoying it as much anymore.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 10:41 AM
Djokovic2011 >>>>>>>>> Nadal 2008. Decline or no decline, Djoker is superior in every way except moonballing.

MichaelNadal
09-02-2011, 10:43 AM
Djokovic2011 >>>>>>>>> Nadal 2008. Decline or no decline, Djoker is superior in every way except moonballing.

My pinky finger >>>>>>>>>>>>> your brain.

OddJack
09-02-2011, 10:44 AM
Don't worry, the trolls will not follow logic.

Nice to see Tony telling it like it is. One thing I always liked about him, his brutal honesty.

As I said before, Fed, with the easiest game on the body in modern history(no retirements in his career and very few ailments overall), started declining in his 7th consecutive year winning slams but due to his massive talent and easy game, he can still make major damage.

Nadal is in his 7th year winning slams, has started winning earlier than Fed, but his game is about wear and tear(missed 3 slams due to injury by age 25, missed an entire clay season, has tendinitis in both knees, etc.). These factors, coupled with Djoko's amazing rise(and the fact that he is a bad matchup) does not bode well for Rafa in the future. Everybody says that Djoko is his main problem and that is true in a sense but Nadal doesn't have the same will to improve his game anymore and he seems to not give his all anymore. Look how he lost to Dodig and Fish. Lost to Ivan after winning the first and slipping mentally again around the tiebreaks. Never being in the match with Fish. It's like you are watching someone else, not Rafa Nadal.

The thing is, maybe he can't give anymore, which is something few of us take into account. And maybe Rafa can't admit it to himself and just keeps rolling along, hoping to stumble into some titles.

Lack of fitness, no more mental edge, bored/annoyed on court, these are not things associated with Nadal, but that's where he is right now. Also, in tennis age, Rafa is 27'ish IMO.

And that was his attitude same time last year that made Toni threat to walk away. Its in his book. Toni did not like his looks with his istomin match, and Nadal just said: I am human, whats the big deal?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2011/sep/02/us-open-rafael-nadal-novak-djokovic



In an autobiography that stretches ghosted self-analysis to the limits of tolerance, Rafael Nadal does shed light on one interesting facet of his personality: his game face.

In the heat of battle, he invariably looks like a wired-up bull, brows arched, lip curled, muscles tensed and his gaze burning a hole in his poor opponent. Some times, though, the Nadal facade cracks. And it happened in this tournament last year.

He reveals that he had a major bust-up with his uncle and coach, Toni (a mix of the Good Fairy and Burgess Meredith) in the second round – and it was all about how he looked on court.

All his career, Toni has urged Nadal to maintain "una buena cara", a good face, on court. "To have a good face," says Nadal, "means to wear a serious, concentrated expression when you are playing, one that betrays as few negative emotions as possible, reflecting an attitude of persistence and professional discipline."

He goes on: "The opposite of a good face is one that reflects the rage, the nerves, the tension, the fear or even the elation you might be feeling."

There's much more of this, which boils down to that old chestnut, "focus".

They fell out before Rafa's match against Denis Istomin. The Spaniard, not wearing his "buena cara", did not play well but won. In the locker room afterwards, he had to tell the grumpy Burgess Meredith side of his uncle: "I am not perfect and I cannot always disguise my feelings."

"If my face looks the way you said it does," Nadal told him, "it's because I was feeling nervous, because I was afraid I might lose, which I think is an entirely understandable human reaction … So what's the big deal?"

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 10:44 AM
My pinky finger >>>>>>>>>>>>> your brain.

That's not what I heard. I heard you were pretty stupid. Your posts are a reflection of it.

celoft
09-02-2011, 10:45 AM
It's interesting, while Rodge at 30 is trying to say he is still young, Nadal at 25 is trying to say he is old. What does that tell you? If you ask me it's the love for the game. Nadal is not enjoying it as much anymore.

Roger has much more heart than Nadal.:)

tennis_pro
09-02-2011, 10:46 AM
Well, we already knew that, but one of the reasons he brings up is interesting.
He pulls the age card! Rafa is old at 25, and he will not be playing in few years!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/02/rafael-nadal-novak-djokovic_n_946561.html

"Americans love fast games, but that's not necessarily what is best," Toni Nadal said. "Slower is better for spectators and easier on the players, like clay or grass courts(...)"

I'm starting to think Hafa and Toni share 1 brain.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 10:47 AM
It's interesting, while Rodge at 30 is trying to say he is still young, Nadal at 25 is trying to say he is old. What does that tell you? If you ask me it's the love for the game. Nadal is not enjoying it as much anymore.

Nadal enjoys pain and competition. He has been doing that since he was a kid.

It's a different approach to the game. Nadal has said many times that he likes the tight moments in the match and that he enjoys fighting hard for the victory more than the victory itself. He likes these roadblocks in front of him. The problem is, with his game and mileage, certain roadblock are nearly impossible to overcome. For the guy that is used to overcoming these roadblocks, that is hard to take.

Federer is different. He is more of the artist type. He likes to fly free. That's when Fed is at his best, when he is slaughtering someone on court who has no answer. He does it quick and precise, like with a surgeon's scalpel. His problem comes when he has to get dirty, when he has a player that likes to chomp down and who prefers to stay with him so to speak. It's no wonder that his problems came against defensive minded players. Safin and DelPo(partially Nalby as well) that beat Fed while playing mainly offensive games.

MichaelNadal
09-02-2011, 10:48 AM
That's not what I heard. I heard you were pretty stupid. Your posts are a reflection of it.

Say what you will but at least I actually do something besides troll on here. All of your posts have been a waste of space.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 10:49 AM
My pinky finger >>>>>>>>>>>>> your brain.

The troll has a brain?

TennisFan3
09-02-2011, 10:53 AM
It's interesting, while Rodge at 30 is trying to say he is still young, Nadal at 25 is trying to say he is old. What does that tell you? If you ask me it's the love for the game. Nadal is not enjoying it as much anymore.

I've also been saying that for a LONG LONG time.

Fed genuinely enjoys the game. He loves the travel involved and has a gf/wife who is extremely supportive. Fed is fiercely independent and confidence about himself. Even if he is no longer the player he used to be, he plays because he loves tennis and cannot imagine himself doing anything else.

Nadal's case is different. He is a homeboy, a "major" introvert, who HATES travelling and would rather stay home and fish. Toni has used some extreme methods of discipline which extend beyond the tennis court, and it has led to severe insecurity, anxiety and host of other strange psychological traits that Nadal struggles with in private. In Nadal's book there are direct quotes from Nadal vindicating the darkness inhabiting his psychological landscape.

Tennis has always been a ordeal for Nadal, and his high intensity and extreme work-ethic always meant that he would wear down earlier in his career. And as I predicted here before, it is the mental part that does him in, not his body or an injury..

namelessone
09-02-2011, 10:53 AM
And that was his attitude same time last year that made Toni threat to walk away. Its in his book. Toni did not like his looks with his istomin match, and Nadal just said: I am human, whats the big deal?


The big deal is that disciplin is paramount. That "game face" is just a way of trying to stay focused. One thing I am starting to dislike about Rafa(and he has been doing this since the end of 2010) is his increased talks to himself on the court and the prolonged complaining when he misses.

He RARELY did this in the past. Miss the pass,lose the point, move on. Nowadays he lingers on it and it shows in his body language. That's what bothers Tony I think, you shouldn't let your opponents see weakness in body language.

Nadal should go back to his old manneurisms on court. He should focus on his game, not his misses.

Murrayfan31
09-02-2011, 10:57 AM
It's true but I think Nadal needs a new coach. Someone more positive.

MichaelNadal
09-02-2011, 10:58 AM
The big deal is that disciplin is paramount. That "game face" is just a way of trying to stay focused. One thing I am starting to dislike about Rafa(and he has been doing this since the end of 2010) is his increased talks to himself on the court and the prolonged complaining when he misses.

He RARELY did this in the past. Miss the pass,lose the point, move on. Nowadays he lingers on it and it shows in his body language. That's what bothers Tony I think, you shouldn't let your opponents see weakness in body language.

Nadal should go back to his old manneurisms on court. He should focus on his game, not his misses.

I agree with this it's VERY noticeable now. He used to shrug it off really quickly or not do anything at all. Now he's always very visibly upset when things go wrong.

zagor
09-02-2011, 10:59 AM
It's interesting, while Rodge at 30 is trying to say he is still young, Nadal at 25 is trying to say he is old. What does that tell you? If you ask me it's the love for the game. Nadal is not enjoying it as much anymore.

It tells they have a different approach and mentality, Fed embraces the role of the favourite and the burden of expectations that come with it while Nadal shies away from such position (always has). Fed is not in better form or more fresh than Nadal right now(physically or mentally) which is evident in their results last 2 years.

Those who buy this nonsense Toni is saying/implying ie. Nadal is "old" and won't be active in a few years etc. are being naive. Take out Novak and Nadal would already have 2 slams and atleast 4 masters titles this year, he reached 7 finals in a row at one point etc. Nadal is still playing great and is still the first or 2nd favourite in every tournament he enters, once Novak form takes a dip Nadal will pounce instantly, mark my words.

TennisFan3
09-02-2011, 11:01 AM
It's true but I think Nadal needs a new coach. Someone more positive.
That is true, for a million other reasons besides the negativity of Toni. Still Nadal most likely won't change. If he could have, he would have done this a long time ago..

zagor
09-02-2011, 11:01 AM
The troll has a brain?

So saying 2011 Novak is playing at a higher level than Nadal did in 2008 is trolling?

Were those who claimed 2008 Nadal>>>>>2006 Fed trolls as well?

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 11:04 AM
The troll has a brain?

Hi Hotstuff, te iubesc.

TennisFan3
09-02-2011, 11:04 AM
So saying 2011 Novak is playing at a higher level than Nadal did in 2008 is trolling?


Look at the posting history of the said poster and read the kind of stuff he/she wrote in the past 6 months or so..

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 11:05 AM
Say what you will but at least I actually do something besides troll on here. All of your posts have been a waste of space.

Every time someone claims that Djoker 2011 is beating a declining Nadal, THAT is a troll. Sorry, but the data don't lie.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 11:06 AM
Look at the posting history of the said poster and read the kind of stuff he/she wrote in the past 6 months or so..

Likewise I'm sure. You blather on incessantly about total absurdities. You are no different.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 11:07 AM
So saying 2011 Novak is playing at a higher level than Nadal did in 2008 is trolling?

Were those who claimed 2008 Nadal>>>>>2006 Fed trolls as well?

Actually saying Djoker2011 > Nadal 2008 just really gets under their skin, because deep down inside they realize it could be true, and well, the truth hurts sometimes.

zagor
09-02-2011, 11:08 AM
Look at the posting history of the said poster and read the kind of stuff he/she wrote in the past 6 months or so..

What kind of stuff? He didn't say anything the majority of Nadal fans didn't at one point or another, does that make them trolls?

I certainly don't view Namelessone as a troll for example but he ha numerous times in the past(before 2011) tried to convince me(and other Fed fans) that Fed was at his peak in 2008 and that the only reason he wasn't dominating anymore was because Nadal improved tenfold as a player even though Fed's overall results in 2008 were far worse than Nadal's are this year.

DjokovicForTheWin claims Nadal is playing his best/peak tennis at the age of 24-25? There are still a number of Nadal fans who claim that Fed is playing as good as ever at the age of 30.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 11:09 AM
It tells they have a different approach and mentality, Fed embraces the role of the favourite and the burden of expectations that come with it while Nadal shies away from such position (always has). Fed is not in better form or more fresh than Nadal right now(physically or mentally) which is evident in their results last 2 years.

Those who buy this nonsense Toni is saying/implying ie. Nadal is "old" and won't be active in a few years etc. are being naive. Take out Novak and Nadal would already have 2 slams and atleast 4 masters titles this year, he reached 7 finals in a row at one point etc. Nadal is still playing great and is still the first or 2nd favourite in every tournament he enters, once Novak form takes a dip Nadal will pounce instantly, mark my words.

This is the actual truth. Not some idiotic subjective feeling that Nadal is declining. LOL, the data certainly don't support that conclusion. In fact he was never slaughtered as badly this year as he was in 2008, his supposed peak according to the *****. Oh wait that peak simply started after the slaughter :) LOLLLLLL

TennisFan3
09-02-2011, 11:11 AM
Likewise I'm sure. You blather on incessantly about total absurdities. You are no different.

Sure. I've never even said that Djokovic is not better than Nadal. He clearly is.

But you seem to have an obsession of hanging around in Nadal related threads, and always bringing the same thing ad-nauseum. Which is that Djokovic is better than prime Nadal, and Nadal wouldn't have won anything if Djokovic would have been in his prime then.

Of course that's an opinion, and it's fine, but you even personally attack other posters (Calling them idiot etc), which is something that few good posters here do.

Anyway, it's a free world. Do whatever floats your boat..

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 11:13 AM
Sure. I've never even said that Djokovic is not better than Nadal. He clearly is.

But you seem to have an obsession of hanging around in Nadal related threads, and always bringing the same thing ad-nauseum. Which is that Djokovic is better than prime Nadal, and Nadal wouldn't have won anything if Djokovic would have been in his prime then.

Of course that's an opinion, and it's fine, but you even personally attack other posters (Calling them idiot etc), which is something that few good posters here do.

Anyway, it's a free world. Do whatever floats your boat..

You only say this in the context of a 'declining' Nadal. It's a troll. It's no different. If you can't recognize that, then I can't help you fella. I am ad nauseam? LOL, fella you are the poster boy for ad nauseam going on and on about how NAdal is declining, etc, etc. Ask even the *********s, they are sick of it!

zagor
09-02-2011, 11:16 AM
This is the actual truth. Not some idiotic subjective feeling that Nadal is declining. LOL, the data certainly don't support that conclusion. In fact he was never slaughtered as badly this year as he was in 2008, his supposed peak according to the *****. Oh wait that peak simply started after the slaughter :) LOLLLLLL

That's actually a valid argument. Kolja beat Nadal much more easily in Miami final that year than Novak did this year and also Tsonga destroyed a healthy rested Nadal at AO. Also in 2008 Novak(who wasn't playing as good as he is this year that's for sure, he was still a baby) routined Nadal in Cinncinati while this year he had to go 3 sets in both of their encounters on HC

Clarky21
09-02-2011, 11:18 AM
That's actually a valid argument. Kolja beat Nadal much more easily in Miami final that year than Novak did this year and also Tsonga destroyed a healthy rested Nadal at AO. Also in 2008 Novak(who wasn't playing as good as he is this year that's for sure, he was still a baby) routined Nadal in Cinncinati while this year he had to go 3 sets in both of their encounters on HC

**** was still a baby in 2008? He is only 11 months younger than Nadal so I guess Nadal was still a baby then too,right?

TennisFan3
09-02-2011, 11:20 AM
You only say this in the context of a 'declining' Nadal.

Not true. I even said that the UsOpen 2010 Nadal would have difficulties with current Djokovic.

Plus, unlike you, I don't barge in on Djokovic related threads and say for instance that Djokovic would have no chance against prime Fed or prime Nadal. More importantly, unlike you, in my 2 years of posting, have I NEVER called anyone names (idiot or the like).

Anyway, it's just a game. I don't take stuff here personally. Nonetheless I'll edit my initial post, if you don't like that..

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 11:20 AM
**** was still a baby in 2008? He is only 11 months younger than Nadal so I guess Nadal was still a baby then too,right?

Baby in his tennis game. Players come into their own on different timetables. Compare Fed and NAdal.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 11:21 AM
Not true. I even said that the UsOpen 2010 Nadal would have difficulties with current Djokovic.

Plus, unlike you, I don't barge in on Djokovic related threads and say for instance that Djokovic would have no chance against prime Fed or prime Djokovic. More importantly, unlike you, in my 2 years of posting, have I NEVER called anyone names (idiot or the like).

Anyway, it's just a game. I don't take stuff here personally. Nonetheless I'll edit my initial post, if you don't like that..

No you just post in every damn thread ad nauseum about how Djoker would have to have a heart attack to not win the USO. And that's not a troll huh? Dude, look in the mirror and then cast the first stone ok?

And I have never said Djokovic would have no chance against prime Djokovic :)

MichaelNadal
09-02-2011, 11:21 AM
Not true. I even said that the UsOpen 2010 Nadal would have difficulties with current Djokovic.

Plus, unlike you, I don't barge in on Djokovic related threads and say for instance that Djokovic would have no chance against prime Fed or prime Djokovic. More importantly, unlike you, in my 2 years of posting, have I NEVER called anyone names (idiot or the like).

Anyway, it's just a game. I don't take stuff here personally. Nonetheless I'll edit my initial post, if you don't like that..

EXACTLY. I don't get the obsession at all.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 11:25 AM
So saying 2011 Novak is playing at a higher level than Nadal did in 2008 is trolling?

Were those who claimed 2008 Nadal>>>>>2006 Fed trolls as well?

It was a general assertion about that user.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 11:27 AM
It was a general assertion as far as that user is concerned.

What's wrong with my assertion? They both won the same number of slams in their respective years so far and Djoker is on pace to have the best W/L record in the history of tennis.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 11:30 AM
That's actually a valid argument. Kolja beat Nadal much more easily in Miami final that year than Novak did this year and also Tsonga destroyed a healthy rested Nadal at AO. Also in 2008 Novak(who wasn't playing as good as he is this year that's for sure, he was still a baby) routined Nadal in Cinncinati while this year he had to go 3 sets in both of their encounters on HC

Nadal has different peaks for different surfaces. He only started getting better on HC since 2009. 2008 is considered his best because of how he routined people on clay and grass that year, even winning some matches that he could have lost(see Queens F or Olympics SF), getting the first channel slam since Borg etc. I don't think people were lauding Nadal's 2008 in terms of HC.

What are we talking about here anyway? Nadal made his first HC SF in 2008, even though he was a slam winner since 2005. That should tell you a lot. Since 2009, he won his first HC GS, then went on to win the USO and even made his first WTF final. Doesn't mean that Nadal is a HC force, but 2009-2011 Nadal is a better HC'er that the 2005-2008 version.

zagor
09-02-2011, 11:33 AM
**** was still a baby in 2008? He is only 11 months younger than Nadal so I guess Nadal was still a baby then too,right?

Actually, according to Nadal fans he was a baby untily 2008 then got injuried in 2009, recovered from his injury to win 3 slams in 2010(and do a clean clay sweep)and then got very old in 2011.

So in short no, Nadal was not a baby in 2008, as a matter of fact that was his first non-baby year.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 11:35 AM
Actually, according to Nadal fans he was a baby untily 2008 then got injuried in 2009, recovered from his injury to win 3 slams in 2010(and do a clean clay sweep)and then got very old in 2011.

So in short no, Nadal was not a baby in 2008, as a matter of fact that was his first non-baby year.

No, he was a baby on HC till 2009 IMO. He didn't even make a HC GS SF till 2008.

zagor
09-02-2011, 11:38 AM
Nadal has different peaks for different surfaces.

Oh OK, so we must be very delicate and precise then when we discuss Nadal's peak & prime and compare it to other players.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 11:45 AM
Oh OK, so we must be very delicate and precise then when we discuss Nadal's peak & prime and compare it to other players.

This is how I view it:

Clay: prime 2005-2010, peak 2008 and 2010, post prime: 2011 onwards.
Grass: pre-prime: 2005-2006, prime 2007-onwards(nadal's grass game has declined the least) with 2008 as peak.
HC: pre-prime: before 2009, prime 2009-2011(peak being 2010, USO in particular), post prime 2012 onwards me thinks.

TMF
09-02-2011, 11:45 AM
No, he was a baby on HC till 2009 IMO. He didn't even make a HC GS SF till 2008.

23 years old is not a baby. How can a player be baby at that age and all the sudden is old at 25. Makes no sense.

And Nadal fans are in no position to call anyone a TROLL in here when they are the worst offender.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 11:48 AM
23 years old is not a baby. How can a player be baby at that age and all the sudden is old at 25. Makes no sense.

And Nadal fans are in no position to call anyone a TROLL in here when they are the worst offender.

Nadal fans are not calling that guy a troll, I am.

And stop playing the dumbass, at age 25 Nadal has almost 11 season on tour and is in his 7th year winning slams, with a tough style on the body. To compare, Federer in 2010(his last slam so far) was in his 8th year winning slams and most people considered him over the hill.

Look at the years: Nadal 2005-2011, Fed 2003-2010. The only difference is that Rafa started winning earlier.

Boricua
09-02-2011, 11:49 AM
I think Nadal's career depends on what happens in 2012. I do NOT see him as a guy that would stick around while losing to people he knows he should beat or in the south end of the top 10. If he has a good year I expect him to stay. If he doesn't win a major, I think 2013 will be it for him, if not the end of 2012.

I think hell play until he is 30 at least. Looks like many men are extending their careers. Look at Federer, Nalbandian, Ferrero, Hewitt, Blake, Moya (retired recently). By this I dont know if he will be top ten at that time.

He is too competitive to retire before 30. But, lets see if his body is ok at that time.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 11:53 AM
I think hell play until he is 30 at least. Looks like many men are extending their careers. Look at Federer, Nalbandian, Ferrero, Hewitt, Blake, Moya (retired recently). By this I dont know if he will be top ten at that time.

He is too competitive to retire before 30. But, lets see if his body is ok at that time.

Wrong, Nadal said last year(when he was at a high point in his career) that he will likely retire around 27-28 and that his MAX age on tour will be 30.

People need to realize that at 27, Rafa will already have like 13 season on tour. With his style, it's not easy to keep up once legs start giving in.

Boricua
09-02-2011, 11:57 AM
Wrong, Nadal said last year(when he was at a high point in his career) that he will likely retire around 27-28 and that his MAX age on tour will be 30.

People need to realize that at 27, Rafa will already have like 13 season on tour. With his style, it's not easy to keep up once legs start giving in.

Could be what you say. But many athletes say they will retire at some age and when they reach that age they just cant.

OddJack
09-02-2011, 11:59 AM
It tells they have a different approach and mentality, Fed embraces the role of the favourite and the burden of expectations that come with it while Nadal shies away from such position (always has). Fed is not in better form or more fresh than Nadal right now(physically or mentally) which is evident in their results last 2 years.

Those who buy this nonsense Toni is saying/implying ie. Nadal is "old" and won't be active in a few years etc. are being naive. Take out Novak and Nadal would already have 2 slams and atleast 4 masters titles this year, he reached 7 finals in a row at one point etc. Nadal is still playing great and is still the first or 2nd favourite in every tournament he enters, once Novak form takes a dip Nadal will pounce instantly, mark my words.

i see your point and I mark your words for it, but it's not that simple. Toni's words are not that nonesense. You are assuming Nadal's only problem is Djoker and once he is down Nadal is rejuvenated and back on top. And why dont you ask how long does he need to wait till Djoker is down? Is all that buzz about his mental state and physical state a fuss that will all go away?

He has done it once after 2009, but he is not the same and this is not 2009. He does look spent and irritable and I do beleive when its said he is 2-3 years older than 25 there is some truth to that.

Will he go back up again or will Djoker stay on top long enough to diminish all his chance to dominate again is somehing we have to wait and see, but if I were to bet on one it would be that Djoker will out him.

Clarky21
09-02-2011, 12:01 PM
I think hell play until he is 30 at least. Looks like many men are extending their careers. Look at Federer, Nalbandian, Ferrero, Hewitt, Blake, Moya (retired recently). By this I dont know if he will be top ten at that time.

He is too competitive to retire before 30. But, lets see if his body is ok at that time.

No way Nadal plays till he's 30. He is done by the time he is 27, if not sooner.

Clarky21
09-02-2011, 12:11 PM
(Yep so he's age 25 now. Retire sooner than 27 means he's retiring next year :lol: spaz)

You can laugh now,but I bet you won't be laughing when it actually happens. He is mentally fried,and when a player is done mentally,it sounds the death knell on their career.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 12:14 PM
(Yep so he's age 25 now. Retire sooner than 27 means he's retiring next year :lol: spaz)

I can't believe I agree with you, but yes, some of these people are spazzes. Totally.

Crisstti
09-02-2011, 05:55 PM
I am sure Toni is a really good bloke but what is this 'us'? Brilliant coach he may be but it is Rafael who plays the matches.

I’m quite sure Rafa sometimes does the same (speak in plural like that).

Toni practically runs Nadal's life,so I can bet you he probably believes the same way Toni does. He looks like he would rather be anywhere but on a tennis court,so I am sure that Toni's comments are not too far from the truth.

Well, it appears he runs it a little less now, lol. Nadal looked quite fine today. And he has looked so far very happy after the matches…

Nadal always says the other guy is better to take the pressure off himself. He said Michael Russel was he favorite in their Wimbledon first round match didn't he?

Mmm… link or it didn’t happen.

I think Nadal's career depends on what happens in 2012. I do NOT see him as a guy that would stick around while losing to people he knows he should beat or in the south end of the top 10. If he has a good year I expect him to stay. If he doesn't win a major, I think 2013 will be it for him, if not the end of 2012.

Well, he has more or less said that if he doesn’t feel he can win the important tournaments he would probably retire. Of course, this year he won one (or two, since he actually mentioned Montecarlo in that interview, and not the AO…), and reached the final of another. Was injured in the AO, and we’re yet to see how he does in this one.

Nadal is in his 7th year winning slams, has started winning earlier than Fed, but his game is about wear and tear(missed 3 slams due to injury by age 25, missed an entire clay season, has tendinitis in both knees, etc.). These factors, coupled with Djoko's amazing rise(and the fact that he is a bad matchup) does not bode well for Rafa in the future. Everybody says that Djoko is his main problem and that is true in a sense but Nadal doesn't have the same will to improve his game anymore and he seems to not give his all anymore. Look how he lost to Dodig and Fish. Lost to Ivan after winning the first and slipping mentally again around the tiebreaks. Never being in the match with Fish. It's like you are watching someone else, not Rafa Nadal.

The thing is, maybe he can't give anymore, which is something few of us take into account. And maybe Rafa can't admit it to himself and just keeps rolling along, hoping to stumble into some titles.

Lack of fitness, no more mental edge, bored/annoyed on court, these are not things associated with Nadal, but that's where he is right now. Also, in tennis age, Rafa is 27'ish IMO.


Both Rafa and Toni have said I believe that they don’t think Rafa’s style of game is a problem for his body.

I think you might be a bit too extreme here… Rafa’s fitness and mental edge has looked fine enough in this tournament to me… though it’s true that in general this season the mental edge doesn’t appear to be quite the same.

gregor.b
09-02-2011, 06:12 PM
Even if Rafa pulls the pin at the end of 2012,which I think would be a loss for the game,no one could begrudge him the right to retire when he feels his mind and body have had enough.It seems as though he has been one of the hardest workers physically for some time and it must be difficult to mentally look forward to such a punishing regime.He has been smashing himself for a long time and when the body says 'no more' the mind will surely follow.

mike84
09-02-2011, 07:10 PM
nadal camp all about making excuses

they just got face the reality

novak is playing in his prime right now

they better hope that novak doesn't play this good next year


(my opinion he won't)

OddJack
09-02-2011, 07:25 PM
nadal camp all about making excuses

they just got face the reality

novak is playing in his prime right now

they better hope that novak doesn't play this good next year


(my opinion he won't)

Why he wont? whos gonna beat him? Maybe not 5x-2 record, maybe not two majors and 9 titles but he can stay on top for sometime

Outbeyond
09-02-2011, 07:55 PM
It's interesting, while Rodge at 30 is trying to say he is still young, Nadal at 25 is trying to say he is old. What does that tell you? If you ask me it's the love for the game. Nadal is not enjoying it as much anymore.

Generally speaking, Rafa does seem to tire more than Fed, who unlike Rafa seems to enjoy the travel. You get the sense Nadal would like to go home more. We've all heard how he considered leaving pro tennis for pro golf years ago. He does love his golf! I wouldn't be super surprised if he decided to hang it up in tennis in a few years, particularly if he isn't winning enough to make all that travel and body-bashing worthwhile. And, let's face it, anything he achieves at this point in his career is gravy....he's an all-time great already. Moving on to something new and fun - why not? He's young enough and golfers can play into old age.

OddJack
09-02-2011, 08:01 PM
Generally speaking, Rafa does seem to tire more than Fed, who unlike Rafa seems to enjoy the travel. You get the sense Nadal would like to go home more. We've all heard how he considered leaving pro tennis for pro golf years ago. He does love his golf! I wouldn't be super surprised if he decided to hang it up in tennis in a few years, particularly if he isn't winning enough to make all that travel and body-bashing worthwhile. And, let's face it, anything he achieves at this point in his career is gravy....he's an all-time great already. Moving on to something new and fun - why not? He's young enough and golfers can play into old age.

Actually he just said he was misquoted in his own book. He never considered going for pro golf.

But you have a point, he is a homeboy, likes mama's dishes and bedside stories, so naturally he wants to say there vs putting up with toni abusive behavior

Outbeyond
09-02-2011, 08:19 PM
Actually he just said he was misquoted in his own book. He never considered going for pro golf.

But you have a point, he is a homeboy, likes mama's dishes and bedside stories, so naturally he wants to say there vs putting up with toni abusive behavior

Oh, now I see where you're going with this. You're back to insipidness.

Outbeyond
09-02-2011, 08:21 PM
By the way, OddJack, for a Fed fan, you sure do seem obsessed with Nadal. You might try starting up a Fed thread now and then.:twisted:

mandy01
09-02-2011, 08:28 PM
Humbalito is playing his mind games again, positioning himself as the no-pressure underdog
This :mrgreen:

mandy01
09-02-2011, 08:32 PM
Toni Nadal is so full of crap in that article. Slow tennis is good to watch? Yeah, tell that to Nadal/Spanish fans. LOL! There is nothing remotely fun, for example, about watching extended rallies on a hard court. Even worse is watching them on what was supposed to be a quicker court. And yet, that is what is happening but somehow Toni finds a way to complain about this when he's getting most of the things his way/ his nephew's way. Maybe they should just play on clay year-round . That would please him :rolleyes:

winstonplum
09-02-2011, 08:37 PM
Actually saying Djoker2011 > Nadal 2008 just really gets under their skin, because deep down inside they realize it could be true, and well, the truth hurts sometimes.

Wake me up when Nole's got 10 slams and 19 MS 1000s. Say whatever you want; Fed and Nadal are walking, living, breathing legends of tennis; Nole is having a fantastic year. There's a big difference.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 08:46 PM
Wake me up when Nole's got 10 slams and 19 MS 1000s. Say whatever you want; Fed and Nadal are walking, living, breathing legends of tennis; Nole is having a fantastic year. There's a big difference.

Nole is having a season Nadal could only dream of in his wildest fantasies.

abmk
09-02-2011, 08:50 PM
Toni Nadal is so full of crap in that article. Slow tennis is good to watch? Yeah, tell that to Nadal/Spanish fans. LOL! There is nothing remotely fun, for example, about watching extended rallies on a hard court. Even worse is watching them on what was supposed to be a quicker court. And yet, that is what is happening but somehow Toni finds a way to complain about this when he's getting most of the things his way/ his nephew's way. Maybe they should just play on clay year-round . That would please him :rolleyes:

agreed. That is some rubbish !

winstonplum
09-02-2011, 08:50 PM
I'm getting a little tired of Toni's schtick. He's just too negative. There's a difference between being strong, fierce, competitive, yet also humble. I've never seen anyone in my twenty years of watching sports who epitomized that as much as Nadal. And I'm not alone; there's a reason why he is beloved form one end of the world to the other. But lately, he's being too humble. So much negativity. Yeah, Nole's gotten the better of him this year. Just admit the better man won and move onto the next match. All this sturm und drang after every loss, and the concessions that his confidence is beaten . . . really? Do you really want to broadcast to the entire world that your fiercest rival owns major real estate in you mind. And your coach is popping off to whoever has a microphone that you're totally playing like ****. I agree with other that have said it in the past: time to part ways with Toni. Nadal's only got 2-3 years left; how about Brad Gilbert?

namelessone
09-02-2011, 08:53 PM
Nole is having a season Nadal could only dream of in his wildest fantasies.

You're missing the point.

It's one thing to have a HISTORICAL season like Novak 11' and another to sustain it afterwards.

McEnroe had probably the best tennis season with his 82-3 record(though that may be beaten by Novak) yet no one in their right mind would consider him above Borg in accomplishments. Some even put Connors/Lendl above him.

Or you could take Vilas's 77' as well. Terrific year yet I don't think Vilas is considered top dog overall for that era.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 08:56 PM
Toni Nadal is so full of crap in that article. Slow tennis is good to watch? Yeah, tell that to Nadal/Spanish fans. LOL! There is nothing remotely fun, for example, about watching extended rallies on a hard court. Even worse is watching them on what was supposed to be a quicker court. And yet, that is what is happening but somehow Toni finds a way to complain about this when he's getting most of the things his way/ his nephew's way. Maybe they should just play on clay year-round . That would please him :rolleyes:

Not really mandy.

Even with slowed down surfaces overall, it's still HC they play on 60% and it's bad for Nadal(and others if we are being honest about the effect HC has on the players joints), with his leg problems.

So the Nadals don't really have it their way so to speak.

OddJack
09-02-2011, 08:58 PM
The other poster has a point,

Why "US" ??

I just dont see Vajda or Stefanki or Anacone come out and say "US".

It doesnt matter that they are family. When he says US you hear Toni's ego. I bet you he sees himself above Nadal.

Clarky21
09-02-2011, 09:00 PM
Nadal will NEVER hire a new coach,and definitely not one who is not Spanish. Nadal is obsessed and biased toward anything and everything Spanish. He will never deviate from that.

I also think Nadal is psychologically dependent on Toni because of the way he was treated by him in his formative years as a child. I also think he's part of the reason why Nadal is a mental basketcase with more tics than a clock store. Nadal will never be able to break away from Toni's control while he is still playing. Better chance of a snowball fight in h*ll than of them ever going their seperate ways.

veroniquem
09-02-2011, 09:00 PM
I sure hope Toni is trolling. I mean the guy is so depressing to read that if he's as depressing to listen to, I'm surprised Rafa can even get up in the morning. Toni must be the LEAST supporting and encouraging coach of all tennis history. It is extraordinary that Rafa has been able to win so much with a coach that would make me want to jump off a bridge out of discouragement. How can Rafa keep a high morale with a guy like that? Is he a full blown masochist?
That is why I'm hoping Toni is trolling and refuse to believe his apocalyptic babble. He also said that Rafa may become the best #2 in the history of tennis one day (oh because Fed was SO much better, he would never become #1 of course :???:). Right, sure.

OddJack
09-02-2011, 09:02 PM
Nadal will NEVER hire a new coach,and definitely not one who is not Spanish. Nadal is obsessed and biased toward anything and everything Spanish. He will never deviate from that.

I also think Nadal is psychologically dependent on Toni because of the way he was treated by him in his formative years as a child. I also think he's part of the reason why Nadal is a mental basketcase with more tics than a clock store. Nadal will never be able to break away from Toni's control while he is still playing. Better chance of a snowball fight in h*ll than of them ever going their seperate ways.

Actually, one of the reasons for his weak(relatively) recent performance could be his rebellion against Toni. I am just guessing they are not geting along well as of late.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 09:06 PM
You're missing the point.

It's one thing to have a HISTORICAL season like Novak 11' and another to sustain it afterwards.

McEnroe had probably the best tennis season with his 82-3 record(though that may be beaten by Novak) yet no one in their right mind would consider him above Borg in accomplishments. Some even put Connors/Lendl above him.

Or you could take Vilas's 77' as well. Terrific year yet I don't think Vilas is considered top dog overall for that era.

Ummm, where do you sleep? The majority of *********s on this forum consider Nadal above Federer. I don't care if you don't, but most of the ***** do. So sorry, I think it's YOU that misses the real point.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 09:07 PM
I sure hope Toni is trolling. I mean the guy is so depressing to read that if he's as depressing to listen to, I'm surprised Rafa can even get up in the morning. Toni must be the LEAST supporting and encouraging coach of all tennis history. It is extraordinary that Rafa has been able to win so much with a coach that would make me want to jump off a bridge out of discouragement. How can Rafa keep a high morale with a guy like that? Is he a full blown masochist?
That is why I'm hoping Toni is trolling and refuse to believe his apocalyptic babble. He also said that Rafa may become the best #2 in the history of tennis one day (oh because Fed was SO much better, he would never become #1 of course :???:). Right, sure.

He probably is. I've never heard any other player mention that likes to "suffer on court" like Rafa does on a regular basis. Probably instilled in him by Toni by giving him crap balls and s***ty balls to practice with as a kid.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 09:08 PM
Ummm, where do you sleep? The majority of *********s on this forum consider Nadal above Federer. I don't care if you don't, but most of the ***** do. So sorry, I think it's YOU that misses the real point.

From both the records and skill point of view, they are wrong.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 09:09 PM
From both the records and skill point of view, they are wrong.

Yes I know, but that doesn't stop that tripe from being posted. Hence someone needs to maintain the balance. I hope you are realizing the real point now.

veroniquem
09-02-2011, 09:26 PM
The other poster has a point,

Why "US" ??

I just dont see Vajda or Stefanki or Anacone come out and say "US".

It doesnt matter that they are family. When he says US you hear Toni's ego. I bet you he sees himself above Nadal.



I'm afraid Toni views Rafa as his own private guinea pig so to speak. I'm almost tempted to view Rafa's victories as being "despite" Toni's influence instead of "thanks to". That's a bit extreme of course and Rafa himself would deny it but I've never liked the controlling/intrusive type of personality of some WTA dads and there is something about Toni that matches that profile.
If Rafa retires early, I will blame Toni 100% (for his excessive harshness, pushing him too hard too young, shaming tactics and gloom and doom mentality).

OddJack
09-02-2011, 09:30 PM
I'm afraid Toni views Rafa as his own private guinea pig so to speak. I'm almost tempted to view Rafa's victories as being "despite" Toni's influence instead of "thanks to". That's a bit extreme of course and Rafa himself would deny it but I've never liked the controlling/intrusive type of personality of some WTA dads and there is something about Toni that matches that profile.
If Rafa retires early, I will blame Toni 100% (for his excessive harshness, pushing him too hard too young, shaming tactics and gloom and doom mentality).


This must be the best post you have ever written.
And that could bring your ranking from 68th to 42nd of my all time favorite posters.

TopFH
09-02-2011, 09:30 PM
I don't even like Nadal, but a change would benefit him.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 09:31 PM
I'm afraid Toni views Rafa as his own private guinea pig so to speak. I'm almost tempted to view Rafa's victories as being "despite" Toni's influence instead of "thanks to". That's a bit extreme of course and Rafa himself would deny it but I've never liked the controlling/intrusive type of personality of some WTA dads and there is something about Toni that matches that profile.
If Rafa retires early, I will blame Toni 100% (for his excessive harshness, pushing him too hard too young, shaming tactics and gloom and doom mentality).

Most coaches view their pupils this way, to a certain degree of course. You try and test to see what works for them, especially early on.

TopFH
09-02-2011, 09:33 PM
I'm afraid Toni views Rafa as his own private guinea pig so to speak. I'm almost tempted to view Rafa's victories as being "despite" Toni's influence instead of "thanks to". That's a bit extreme of course and Rafa himself would deny it but I've never liked the controlling/intrusive type of personality of some WTA dads and there is something about Toni that matches that profile.
If Rafa retires early, I will blame Toni 100% (for his excessive harshness, pushing him too hard too young, shaming tactics and gloom and doom mentality).

I second this. I stated some times I'm a Fed fan, but I actually think this is true, not nonsense. Toni must be incredibly harsh on him. Maybe because Rafa is what he could never be.

cc0509
09-02-2011, 09:34 PM
It's true but I think Nadal needs a new coach. Someone more positive.

I doubt very much that will happen. I think Nadal is reaching the point in his life where he is starting to rebel against the control that has been inflicted upon him by Toni and tennis all of his life. I think he is starting to realize there is more to life than being on a tennis court all day. We'll see what happens but I don't think Nadal would ever get rid of Tony and I don't think he will be playing after a couple of years. I think he will have had enough. He has lots of money and the freedom to do what he wants now. He is building that tennis center in his hometown so he will have lots to do in the future, it is all up to him.

cc0509
09-02-2011, 09:36 PM
I agree with this it's VERY noticeable now. He used to shrug it off really quickly or not do anything at all. Now he's always very visibly upset when things go wrong.

I think he is rebelling against things in his own way now in an effort to have more control. He may just be starting to get tired of it all.

OddJack
09-02-2011, 09:36 PM
Why would Nadal lay out the naked truth in his book like that? Talking about Toni basically as an abusive coach?

Maybe things got out of control in that book, he said things his uncle wouldnt want him to and then it was too late.

You know, its not like Nadal to get into details too much when its about family affairs.

cc0509
09-02-2011, 09:39 PM
It tells they have a different approach and mentality, Fed embraces the role of the favourite and the burden of expectations that come with it while Nadal shies away from such position (always has). Fed is not in better form or more fresh than Nadal right now(physically or mentally) which is evident in their results last 2 years.

Those who buy this nonsense Toni is saying/implying ie. Nadal is "old" and won't be active in a few years etc. are being naive. Take out Novak and Nadal would already have 2 slams and atleast 4 masters titles this year, he reached 7 finals in a row at one point etc. Nadal is still playing great and is still the first or 2nd favourite in every tournament he enters, once Novak form takes a dip Nadal will pounce instantly, mark my words.

I don't agree. In terms of mileage Nadal is getting old. He started winning when he was a baby. Nadal and Tony have been saying for years they don't think Nadal will still be playing at 30 and probably won't be playing at age 27-28. I think it is the truth and I usually don't believe a thing people say to the press.

Eternity
09-02-2011, 09:42 PM
I don't even like Nadal, but a change would benefit him.

I don't see Rafa changing coaches unless Toni initiated it. I think Toni offered to step down a few years ago but I could be mistaken.

cc0509
09-02-2011, 09:46 PM
Nole is having a season Nadal could only dream of in his wildest fantasies.

But at the end of the day a great season here and there does not matter. All that matters is at the end of the player's career who has more important records. Will Djokovic have more than 10 slams? (and Nadal is still going so he could get more than 10 slams.) Anything is possible but I highly doubt Djokovic will surpass Nadal's overall records.

veroniquem
09-02-2011, 09:48 PM
I don't see Rafa changing coaches unless Toni initiated it. I think Toni offered to step down a few years ago but I could be mistaken.



Supposedly, he told Rafa he could use someone else if he wanted. But how sincere was the offer? There are ways that people make offers like that with an undercurrent of making you feel guily if you ventured to accept. I am a bit cautious about how much Toni actually "meant" that offer.
In any case, the interdependency was formed a long time ago, so even if Toni initiated to leave, it would probably hurt Rafa more than anything else.

cc0509
09-02-2011, 09:48 PM
Toni Nadal is so full of crap in that article. Slow tennis is good to watch? Yeah, tell that to Nadal/Spanish fans. LOL! There is nothing remotely fun, for example, about watching extended rallies on a hard court. Even worse is watching them on what was supposed to be a quicker court. And yet, that is what is happening but somehow Toni finds a way to complain about this when he's getting most of the things his way/ his nephew's way. Maybe they should just play on clay year-round . That would please him :rolleyes:

I agree with you. That part of Tony's statement is pure garbage. The tour is what it is, like it or not.

rafan
09-02-2011, 09:56 PM
Djokovic2011 >>>>>>>>> Nadal 2008. Decline or no decline, Djoker is superior in every way except moonballing.

...until he has a bad day and then something strange happens and he starts to feel 'odd'

veroniquem
09-02-2011, 09:57 PM
Long rallies are plenty of fun if they are creative and involve crowd pleasers like lobs and drop shots and counter volleys. It would be nice if the partisans of "1-2" tennis let the others have their fun with a mix of offense and defense and point construction. A bit of tolerance for other people's opinions would not hurt on that point.
Personally, I want slow AND fast AND medium. I want a bit of everything.



ETA: if we're talking about "boring", then big serve-serve-serve followed by ace-ace-ace on the other side of the net is what tends to test my patience the most. Unlike some other people I'm not in a hurry to get rid of the match I'm watching, and I like to have time for "ooh" and "ahh" during a point instead of missing it if I blink.
Then again, Isner-Mahut was interesting...

rafan
09-02-2011, 09:59 PM
Supposedly, he told Rafa he could use someone else if he wanted. But how sincere was the offer? There are ways that people make offers like that with an undercurrent of making you feel guily if you ventured to accept. I am a bit cautious about how much Toni actually "meant" that offer.
In any case, the interdependency was formed a long time ago, so even if Toni initiated to leave, it would probably hurt Rafa more than anything else.

I remember a few times though when i thought Toni should go and Rafa was really playing badly and then this sudden upsurge in his performance. It would be interesting to see what someone else would do with Rafa

veroniquem
09-02-2011, 10:08 PM
I'm sure Rafa could have outstanding results staying with Toni or working with someone else because he has immense talent but a- when one has been as conditioned as Rafa has been, it's not easy to "decondition" oneself at any age and b- it's not the results I worry about, it's all the psy damage Toni has already inflicted on Rafa and that Rafa could do as well without any of that "dark" or anxious/nervous stuff.
Technically speaking, a new approach could be interesting, notably in the era of more aggressiveness when playing on hard. It would be worth a try anyway. But there again Toni has hammered into Rafa from a very young age that any loss was always his own responsibility and NO ONE ELSE'S. Which imo is a lie: it's a joint responsibility between player and coach whether a tactic/methods produce expected results or not. Which is what normally coaches get paid for. But Rafa believed Toni when Toni said he could command rain, so of course he believed Toni on that point too (sigh) and now he has to endure the burden of blaming ONLY himself for any loss he suffers. Extra pressure anyone? (Despite Toni having no scruples taking ample credit for Rafa's successes. (He even wrote a book about it). I would call that double standards. :-?)

rommil
09-02-2011, 10:21 PM
Rafa would never go with another coach. That would just make him more a nervous nelly and besides, he needs somebody who knows him on how to deal with his mental and psychological issues.

veroniquem
09-02-2011, 10:49 PM
Rafa would never go with another coach. That would just make him more a nervous nelly and besides, he needs somebody who knows him on how to deal with his mental and psychological issues.



Toni also said he would never coach another player. And why not? You see, their link is kind of claustrophobic. At 25, maybe, Rafa would gain from a relationship that would be more professional than personal. (That would involve mutual respect and more appropriate emotional boundaries instead of "don't do this, don't do that or I leave" which Toni apparently used to obtain obedience from Rafa several times). But as another poster said, we'll never know because it will probably never happen.

LuvTheGame
09-03-2011, 01:04 AM
I'm afraid Toni views Rafa as his own private guinea pig so to speak. I'm almost tempted to view Rafa's victories as being "despite" Toni's influence instead of "thanks to". That's a bit extreme of course and Rafa himself would deny it but I've never liked the controlling/intrusive type of personality of some WTA dads and there is something about Toni that matches that profile.
If Rafa retires early, I will blame Toni 100% (for his excessive harshness, pushing him too hard too young, shaming tactics and gloom and doom mentality).

I read the biography and found it most insightful. Reading between the lines of the book your comment "I'm afraid Toni views Rafa as his own private guinea pig so to speak," has a great deal of merit.

The book details some of Toni's controlling - mind game type of coaching. It is disturbing to read. Wonder if Uncle Toni is angry that his own tennis career never materialized? How do Toni's own sons feel about their Dad's focus from early childhood onto their cousin Nadal?

I also wonder why Nadal's parents surrendered (what reads as) total control over to Toni when Nadal was so young in age. It's one thing to teach a child to be humble, yet another to teach him to be humble to the teacher! How does it feel to be coerced into one sport(tennis) when one loves playing another(soccer)?

From the book it seems that his Mom had some reservations about Toni's coaching style. Makes one wonder how the parent's reconciled this with one another. At least she insisted that Nadal finish his education at a boarding school, of course it was one with a sports emphasis as well.

Good to see Nadal coming into his own! Below is a passage from the biography

What I am trying to teach myself now is to tilt the balance the other way, to exercise more autonomy over my life and disagree more openly with him. This may be a consequence, in part, of me seeing that Toni has his doubts and insecurities too; that he contradicts himself often; that he is not the all-knowing magician of my childhood.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/rafaelnadal/8707878/Rafael-Nadal-Uncle-Toni-terrified-me-but-without-him-Id-be-nothing.html

His game may be suffering a bit but I think the fall from number one is giving him pause to contemplate what he wants personally out of life now that he is a grown man! Good for you Rafa! Vamous!

dominikk1985
09-03-2011, 02:17 AM
At 25, Nadal has played some 600 matches, still far below 1,000. Past players have played 1000+ matches, so Nadal still has a lot left in the gas tank.

Toni is just downplaying his nephew's chances in case if he's not winning, as usual. Too chicken to admit the truth.

what? isn't the thruth that novak is better than nadal?

PCXL-Fan
09-03-2011, 02:36 AM
Veroniquem please psychoanalyze Rafa's behaviour.

I always here Rafa repeat, "I GONNA TRY MY BEST". Every interview he says that at least once. Usually +5 times.

Over and over he hammers away that statement.

And over and over every single match rafa pours in so much effort. Every single point he plays like its break point. It used to be even more glaring this "utmost best effort" he put into every point played.

These are symptoms of deep psychological conditioning and molding. Scars inflicted by the strick unrelenting possibly borderline sociopathic disciplinarian Toni.

chrischris
09-03-2011, 03:18 AM
LOL Djokovic in 24...the Age card means nothing till 29+!


Unmeasured age means everything.
Just think a bit about the efforts used to get their results.
Aka The Bjorn Borg syndrome
Period.

TennisFan3
09-03-2011, 04:03 AM
Personally, I've never been a fan of Toni right from the beginning, even in 2008 when Nadal was at his peak. One could argue that Nadal won 10 slams only with this arrangement , but that's just conjecture. How do we know Nadal wouldn't have been equally (or more) successful under conventional coaching?

I've always been puzzled on why Nadal is such a momentum player. When he has a bunch of wins, his concentration, intensity are second to none. This makes him very hard to beat and he goes on one of his great runs. But it is odd on how Nadal can be insecure and unsure when he comes off a layoff, loss or a poor season. That innate confidence, (or the ability to create confidence) which is usually common among great players, is missing. Reading the book all this makes a LOT of sense. Nadal explains the reasons for his insecurity, which he believes has been sometimes detrimental to his career.

Anyway, we'll see how these next few months play out and if things get any better for Nadal. But so far I don't see anything to indicate he is going to turn this thing around. We've heard the same things after every loss, with no change in game or strategy.

Maybe it would be prudent for Nadal to get some distance from the family and all the negative enablers if the results don't improve? Sometimes changes just have to be made regardless of how painful they may be.

I really do think that if Nadal continues to go down this road without making changes, he better be happy with his 10 slams, because there is a good chance that he might not win a whole lot more..

namelessone
09-03-2011, 04:17 AM
Personally, I've never been a fan of Toni right from the beginning, even in 2008 when Nadal was at his peak. One could argue that Nadal won 10 slams only with this arrangement , but that's just conjecture. How do we know Nadal wouldn't have been equally (or more) successful under conventional coaching?

I've always been puzzled on why Nadal is such a momentum player. When he has a bunch of wins, his concentration, intensity are second to none. This makes him very hard to beat and he goes on one of his great runs. But it is odd on how Nadal can be insecure and unsure when he comes off a layoff, loss or a poor season. That innate confidence, (or the ability to create confidence) which is usually common among great players, is missing. Reading the book all this makes a LOT of sense. Nadal explains the reasons for his insecurity, which he believes has been sometimes detrimental to his career.

Anyway, we'll see how these next few months play out and if things get any better for Nadal. But so far I don't see anything to indicate he is going to turn this thing around. We've heard the same things after every loss, with no change in game or strategy.

Maybe it would be prudent for Nadal to get some distance from the family and all the negative enablers if the results don't improve? Sometimes changes just have to be made regardless of how painful they may be.

I really do think that if Nadal continues to go down this road without making changes, he better be happy with his 10 slams, because there is a good chance that he might not win a whole lot more..

LAWL at the overanalyzing in this thread.

Nadal runs on momentum because he is not a player that can sustain that style ALL YEAR LONG. In fact I don't think anyone can. A brighter flame has a shorter lifespan.

Rafa build his game from January, trying to peak for clay and grass and hope that he has enough fuel left over for USO and WTF.

Also, that mental strength Nadal has(or had), that comes from the spartan training of Tony. Sure, it's not pleasant, but the process of building champions rarely is. Rafa said that Tony's practice sessions were more intense that the matches he played so he actually fared better when the official matches came, mentally I mean.

OddJack
09-03-2011, 04:26 AM
Personally, I've never been a fan of Toni right from the beginning, even in 2008 when Nadal was at his peak. One could argue that Nadal won 10 slams only with this arrangement , but that's just conjecture. How do we know Nadal wouldn't have been equally (or more) successful under conventional coaching?

I've always been puzzled on why Nadal is such a momentum player. When he has a bunch of wins, his concentration, intensity are second to none. This makes him very hard to beat and he goes on one of his great runs. But it is odd on how Nadal can be insecure and unsure when he comes off a layoff, loss or a poor season. That innate confidence, (or the ability to create confidence) which is usually common among great players, is missing. Reading the book all this makes a LOT of sense. Nadal explains the reasons for his insecurity, which he believes has been sometimes detrimental to his career.

Anyway, we'll see how these next few months play out and if things get any better for Nadal. But so far I don't see anything to indicate he is going to turn this thing around. We've heard the same things after every loss, with no change in game or strategy.

Maybe it would be prudent for Nadal to get some distance from the family and all the negative enablers if the results don't improve? Sometimes changes just have to be made regardless of how painful they may be.

I really do think that if Nadal continues to go down this road without making changes, he better be happy with his 10 slams, because there is a good chance that he might not win a whole lot more..

Nadal would never have such success without Toni. Nobody knows him better than him, nobody knew how to get the most out of him. Toni made him to fight for his family pride, Nadal is simply not one to fight for money or history or other personal ambitions.

Now that he has reached to most of what he wants suddenly Toni is no good. When he was beating down everybody and was the best player in the world Toni was tolerable but not now anymore?

LuvTheGame
09-03-2011, 04:47 AM
No doubt his current coach and his methods have gotten Nadal this far. But the little boy of seven is now 25. Question is how successful will those coaching methods be continue to be? To answer I'll use one of Rafa's favorite words in English maybe "fantastic", maybe "no!"

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 05:44 AM
But at the end of the day a great season here and there does not matter. All that matters is at the end of the player's career who has more important records. Will Djokovic have more than 10 slams? (and Nadal is still going so he could get more than 10 slams.) Anything is possible but I highly doubt Djokovic will surpass Nadal's overall records.

If anything can happen then there is no reason to doubt Djoker can pass Nadal's slam count. Especially from a guy who can potentially produce a season that even Federer couldn't.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 05:45 AM
...until he has a bad day and then something strange happens and he starts to feel 'odd'

'until', being the key word. ;)

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 05:46 AM
(Well, Nadal won 3 slams on 3 completely different surfaces. First player in 41 years to win RG, Wim, USO in the same year. And the only player to ever do it on 3 different surfaces. Djokovic whereas has only won 2 slams this year. Nadal can win his 2nd slam this year next week)

He also had something like 10 losses that season. Having only 2 or 3 losses and also 3 slams easily surpasses that IMO. Plus it's not like Nadal won these 3 completely different surfaces when the surfaces were actually different, LOL.

ben123
09-03-2011, 06:03 AM
Djokovic2011 >>>>>>>>> Nadal 2008. Decline or no decline, Djoker is superior in every way except moonballing.

statements like this are meaningless when they come from someone with the name djokovic for the win :roll:

cc0509
09-03-2011, 06:27 AM
If anything can happen then there is no reason to doubt Djoker can pass Nadal's slam count. Especially from a guy who can potentially produce a season that even Federer couldn't.

True, anything can happen but winning 7 slams which is what Djokovic will have to do to tie Nadal is not such a piece of cake. Winning double digit slams is not an easy thing and that is why there are so few players who have done so. You never know what is going to happen. Nadal could win the next few or not. Maybe Djokovic will win the next few or somebody else? We shall see. No certainties. :wink:

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 06:28 AM
(A player's legacy is measured by slams before everything else, not winning%. If Djokovic doesn't win this US Open, and Nadal does, then they are 2 slams all in 2011. Nadal technically may end up with his 3 best titles of the year being greater than Djokovic's 3 best, if Nadal wins this US Open and the Indoor World Tour Finals [which he made the final of last year]. A lot of work still do to for Djokovic this year)

Therefore Nadal's legacy will never surpass Borg's.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 06:30 AM
True, anything can happen but winning 7 slams which is what Djokovic will have to do to tie Nadal is not such a piece of cake. Winning double digit slams is not an easy thing and that is why there are so few players who have done so. You never know what is going to happen. Nadal could win the next few or not. Maybe Djokovic will win the next few or somebody else? We shall see. No certainties. :wink:

No one said it was a piece of cake, but neither is having only 2 losses in a season, and Djokovic has managed that so far. No one is saying any of it will be easy, but there's no reason to think Djoker couldn't do it after having produced a season like this where he dominates the entire field AND the second best player in the world on his best surface.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 06:31 AM
statements like this are meaningless when they come from someone with the name djokovic for the win :roll:

What are you talking about? Nadal won 2 slams in 2008. Djoker has also won 2 in 2011. AND he has won the most Master's in a season in history and is on pace to have the best W/L record in history. It's quite meaningful to say Djoker2011 >>>>>> Nadal 2008. No question.

OddJack
09-03-2011, 06:36 AM
2008 Nadal brought 2009 Nadal

Lets see what Djoker 2012 brings

Outbeyond
09-03-2011, 07:01 AM
^^Here we go again! The strident Djoker fans have taken over and made this into a Nole versus Nadal thread:roll:.

It's kind of funny, because not too many moons ago, every thread ended with Fed versus Nadal...

To stick to the subject at hand, Toni's always been about leveling expectations regarding his nephew. He levels them for Rafa and he levels them for you and me and anyone else who happens to ask.

Clearly, this message of "let's not get ahead of ourselves here" is a double-edged sword. It seems like it could be a real dampener, a source of discouragement and negativity feeding a lack of confidence. But it can also support the best motivating thought in the world: if you work hard to improve every day, you have chances.

Haven't we heard the latter from Nadal every single interview? It's his mantra. It hasn't hurt the guy too much over the course of his career. Toni's message has had some serious legs.

celoft
09-03-2011, 08:51 AM
No one said it was a piece of cake, but neither is having only 2 losses in a season, and Djokovic has managed that so far. No one is saying any of it will be easy, but there's no reason to think Djoker couldn't do it after having produced a season like this where he dominates the entire field AND the second best player in the world on his best surface.

JMac had a season similar to Nole's in 1984 and JMac won just 7 slams. No double digits for JMac despite having a season like this where he dominated the entire field. Just because Nole is having a season like JMac's 1984 doesn't mean he will win 10 or more slams. As a matter of fact it could be ominous and Nole like JMac might just win 7 slams. The players that won double digits at the slams(Open era) all have in common that they were able to win 6/7 times at a particular slam: Borg won 6 times at the FO, Sampras won 7 times at Wimbledon, Roger won 6 times at Wimbledon and Nadal won 6 times at the FO. If Nole can win 6 or 7 AOs(his best slam) then he might join them. I seriously doubt it though. 6-8 slams tops for Nole.

SLD76
09-03-2011, 09:06 AM
Toni Nadal is so full of crap in that article. Slow tennis is good to watch? Yeah, tell that to Nadal/Spanish fans. LOL! There is nothing remotely fun, for example, about watching extended rallies on a hard court. Even worse is watching them on what was supposed to be a quicker court. And yet, that is what is happening but somehow Toni finds a way to complain about this when he's getting most of the things his way/ his nephew's way. Maybe they should just play on clay year-round . That would please him :rolleyes:

I was waiting for someone to address that nonsense in the article. Thank you.

And it saddened me that Toni lumped in grass with the slow courts. Just sad.

And I notice the courts toni favors just miraculously happen to be the surfaces on which rafa has multiple slams at one tournament.

Obvious troll is obvious.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 09:33 AM
JMac had a season similar to Nole's in 1984 and JMac won just 7 slams. No double digits for JMac despite having a season like this where he dominated the entire field. Just because Nole is having a season like JMac's 1984 doesn't mean he will win 10 or more slams. As a matter of fact it could be ominous and Nole like JMac might just win 7 slams. The players that won double digits at the slams(Open era) all have in common that they were able to win 6/7 times at a particular slam: Borg won 6 times at the FO, Sampras won 7 times at Wimbledon, Roger won 6 times at Wimbledon and Nadal won 6 times at the FO. If Nole can win 6 or 7 AOs(his best slam) then he might join them. I seriously doubt it though. 6-8 slams tops for Nole.

Mac was a head case after he lost the Wimby85 to Kevin. He did drugs had a crazy wife. None of that for Djoker. Much more potential to hit double digits. But hey I never said he would do it for sure, but no reason to think he couldn't do it especially considering he is better than Nadal at his best. Don't compare the 80s to now. In the 80s the surfaces were much more divergent and much harder for one player to dominate.

celoft
09-03-2011, 09:33 AM
Mac was a head case after he lost the Wimby85 to Kevin. He did drugs had a crazy wife. None of that for Djoker. Much more potential to hit double digits. But hey I never said he would do it for sure, but no reason to think he couldn't do it especially considering he is better than Nadal at his best. Don't compare the 80s to now. In the 80s the surfaces were much more divergent and much harder for one player to dominate.

Wake me up when Nole wins 6 or 7 AOs.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 09:36 AM
Wake me up when Nole wins 6 or 7 AOs.

Ok Rip Van Winkle.

zagor
09-03-2011, 09:41 AM
And it saddened me that Toni lumped in grass with the slow courts. Just sad..

Yes, that part was the worst. Hello tio Toni, real grass was the fastest surface on tour for the entire history of the sport until 2000 mud slow era.

Novak123
09-03-2011, 10:11 AM
It's amazing how ****** fanboys constantly deny the obvious. The King is naturally so much more gifted than Rafa! Sorry, your hero sucks, and he's going to be outside the top 100 in two years. GET OVER IT!

LuvTheGame
09-03-2011, 10:15 AM
Wake me up when Nole wins 6 or 7 AOs.

Great come back. That's a funny HA! HA! :)

To get back to this Thread's topic...is Uncle Toni challenging Rafa to prove him wrong? I have to wonder what makes this guy tick?

(Special Question: And why the heck did not Coach Toni do something about the pants-pulling-issue way back when he was molding his nephew mentally and physically into Rafa the Champ physically?)

TennisFan3
09-03-2011, 11:39 AM
Now that he has reached to most of what he wants suddenly Toni is no good. When he was beating down everybody and was the best player in the world Toni was tolerable but not now anymore?

Look, buddy, I'm not a bandwagoner. I criticized Toni right from the beginning as early as 2007, Just look at Nadal's technique. Simply put NO GOOD coach would ever teach you to hit like this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_RqaEsBiM ) for example.

Oh and BTW , great players are ALWAYS great regardless of who coaches them. Did Fed stop being great after Roche? Did Sampras stop winning after
Gulikson died? Agassi fooled around with multiple coaches but still did well etc etc.

Anyway, the writing is on the wall. Nadal should have hired a "world class" professional coach a long time ago, as well as a proven fitness trainer to travel with him. With the rise of Djokovic, this has only become more critical if Nadal wants to have one last run, and not get stuck at 10 slams.

He needs people who had more "accountability", as opposed to family members who he cannot get rid of because of a supposed sense of obligation. Read the book, it almost seems like Toni is an abusive parent who later realizes that despite his best intentions, he did more harm than good.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 12:12 PM
(Nadal will win more French Opens [equal so far at 6, plenty of years left], and more slams overall, and Career Grand Slam. Clearly Nadal better)

Not sure how you get that, I think you have your tenses mixed up. First you say Nadal WILL win, i.e. in the future, but then you follow up with Nadal better, which is presumably present tense. How can he be better in the present if he will only surpass in the future?

jackson vile
09-03-2011, 12:18 PM
Therefore Nadal's legacy will never surpass Borg's.

I know you are stupid and everything but come one LOL

MichaelNadal
09-03-2011, 12:48 PM
2008 Nadal brought 2009 Nadal

Lets see what Djoker 2012 brings

Very good point OJ.

OddJack
09-03-2011, 01:24 PM
Look, buddy, I'm not a bandwagoner. I criticized Toni right from the beginning as early as 2007, Just look at Nadal's technique. Simply put NO GOOD coach would ever teach you to hit like this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_RqaEsBiM ) for example.

Oh and BTW , great players are ALWAYS great regardless of who coaches them. Did Fed stop being great after Roche? Did Sampras stop winning after
Gulikson died? Agassi fooled around with multiple coaches but still did well etc etc.

Anyway, the writing is on the wall. Nadal should have hired a "world class" professional coach a long time ago, as well as a proven fitness trainer to travel with him. With the rise of Djokovic, this has only become more critical if Nadal wants to have one last run, and not get stuck at 10 slams.

He needs people who had more "accountability", as opposed to family members who he cannot get rid of because of a supposed sense of obligation. Read the book, it almost seems like Toni is an abusive parent who later realizes that despite his best intentions, he did more harm than good.

I guess what you need to realize, when you make such statement, is two things. First we are not talking about greatness, Rodge, Rafa, Djoker, ...etc they are all great. Second, greatness does not mean they are successful regardless. Even tho tennis is not a team player on court, each player relies on a team of supporters and coaches that help them succeed. "Great players are great regardless" is a very simplistic way of looking at things.

In case of Nadal I believe if There was no uncle Toni he may not have even started tennis. It's as much about Toni as it is about Nadal,

When he says "US" thats what you should hear him saying.

Medved
09-03-2011, 02:25 PM
Sorry Uncle Toni, but the reason Americans play on hard courts is not that we prefer fast games. It's that we can't afford clay. The biggest problem with tennis is that it is not accessible to the masses. Getting rid of hard courts would exacerbate that problem.

I've always wondered how much the spaniards pay the people who actually do the upkeep on those fine clay courts of theirs.

Outbeyond
09-03-2011, 02:37 PM
Sorry Uncle Toni, but the reason Americans play on hard courts is not that we prefer fast games. It's that we can't afford clay. The biggest problem with tennis is that it is not accessible to the masses. Getting rid of hard courts would exacerbate that problem.

I've always wondered how much the spaniards pay the people who actually do the upkeep on those fine clay courts of theirs.

take paradise and put up a parking lot...we're all about asphalt and cheap in the USA:)

JustBob
09-03-2011, 02:40 PM
Sorry Uncle Toni, but the reason Americans play on hard courts is not that we prefer fast games. It's that we can't afford clay. The biggest problem with tennis is that it is not accessible to the masses. Getting rid of hard courts would exacerbate that problem.

I've always wondered how much the spaniards pay the people who actually do the upkeep on those fine clay courts of theirs.


You're mixing what elite player development requires with what the "masses" require.Two entirely different issues.

Caracalla
09-03-2011, 02:41 PM
Nadal is genuinely tired of Tennis and Toni is tired too..

Parents divorce usually means.. parents are tired too..

Tennis is tough sport with huge sacrifice to be made effecting all parties involved..

it is a beautiful sport.. but professionally it's not as glamorous as it looks on TV at all..

in some other sports athletes get paid and they may or may not touch the ball for 10 minutes.. like soccer for example.. but they still get paid loads of money..

I think as long as Federer is on tour you will see the fans.. with Federer gone and if Nadal goes.. Tennis is in deep trouble unless some young guy takes over like Federer took over from Sampras.. and I don't mean Dimitrov, Raonic, Sock, Tomic..

the new Sampras/Federer will appear in very obvious form whenever he surface the Tennis World

for now Djokovic is doing a great job.. and he is entertaining..

Clarky21
09-03-2011, 02:42 PM
take paradise and put up a parking lot...we're all about asphalt and cheap in the USA:)

Yep,and that's why the US has failed to produce a slam winner in nearly 10 years. And also why,even with this new crop,that looks unlikely to change.

Medved
09-03-2011, 02:46 PM
You're mixing what elite player development requires with what the "masses" require.Two entirely different issues.

I see your point, but at the same time, does elite player development not need the masses to an extent?

Why don't we play the US Open on clay anymore?

Crisstti
09-03-2011, 03:49 PM
Yes, that part was the worst. Hello tio Toni, real grass was the fastest surface on tour for the entire history of the sport until 2000 mud slow era.

“Real grass”?. Is the grass now somehow not real?. If it remains like this for 50 years more, are people then still going to be going on about back then when grass was “real”?.

To get back to this Thread's topic...is Uncle Toni challenging Rafa to prove him wrong? I have to wonder what makes this guy tick?

(Special Question: And why the heck did not Coach Toni do something about the pants-pulling-issue way back when he was molding his nephew mentally and physically into Rafa the Champ physically?)

Well, Rafa didn’t do that much before 2006 I think. At least not in a compulsive way, all the time. He hardly did it in that first match against Roger in 2005… I think that maybe, if it is some kind of anxiety disorder, it might have been triggered by the injury in 2005. OCD is often triggered by stressful situations.

Look, buddy, I'm not a bandwagoner. I criticized Toni right from the beginning as early as 2007, Just look at Nadal's technique. Simply put NO GOOD coach would ever teach you to hit like this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_RqaEsBiM ) for example.

I’m not sure what is wrong with that shot. The pressure he’s putting on his ankle there?.

He needs people who had more "accountability", as opposed to family members who he cannot get rid of because of a supposed sense of obligation. Read the book, it almost seems like Toni is an abusive parent who later realizes that despite his best intentions, he did more harm than good.

That is true about accountability.

Sorry Uncle Toni, but the reason Americans play on hard courts is not that we prefer fast games. It's that we can't afford clay. The biggest problem with tennis is that it is not accessible to the masses. Getting rid of hard courts would exacerbate that problem.

I've always wondered how much the spaniards pay the people who actually do the upkeep on those fine clay courts of theirs.

I don't think Spain is a richer country than the US…

SLD76
09-03-2011, 04:12 PM
yes but spain is a country roughly 1/3 if the size of texas. not as many courts to put up and maintain.

Medved
09-03-2011, 05:15 PM
I don't think Spain is a richer country than the US…

They're not, but for the few aristocrats who can afford to play tennis there, I'm sure the labor costs to keep up their clay courts is very cheap. Whenever I ask why we don't have red clay courts in America, the answer always has to do with cost, not what people would prefer to play on.

Crisstti
09-03-2011, 05:18 PM
They're not, but for the few aristocrats who can afford to play tennis there, I'm sure the labor costs to keep up their clay courts is very cheap. Whenever I ask why we don't have red clay courts in America, the answer always has to do with cost, not what people would prefer to play on.

Not sure what you're trying to say there. That they pay people less in Spain than in the US?. :confused:

Medved
09-03-2011, 06:15 PM
Did you ever hear the David Ferrer story. David decided he didn't want to play tennis anymore so he got a job working construction. After 1 week he earned a grand total of $30. After that he decided that he'd go back to tennis. So his parents resumed paying for his training, at $4000/week.

I'm saying that we don't have the cheap labor to provide the upkeep on clay courts that they have in Spain.

SLD76
09-03-2011, 06:57 PM
Did you ever hear the David Ferrer story. David decided he didn't want to play tennis anymore so he got a job working construction. After 1 week he earned a grand total of $30. After that he decided that he'd go back to tennis. So his parents resumed paying for his training, at $4000/week.

I'm saying that we don't have the cheap labor to provide the upkeep on clay courts that they have in Spain.

Dunno about that story. but I do know that most communities, townships, small towns and boroughs have some sort of tennis court at the local park. Most, but certainly not all.

I can tell you now, its not a high priority in the township budget to allot for the upkeep and maintenance of a clay court.

In a country like spain, there may be 200 courts in the whole country,

In california alone there are probably 500 courts.

You begin to see the issue, I think.

Much easier and cheaper to throw up some hardcourts and a tennis wall.

Now I will say that at the elite academies, there should be clay courts for the kids to develop their games.

But in general, its just not practical for clay courts for general access by the populace

JustBob
09-03-2011, 07:01 PM
Correct. The "masses" do not need clay courts. The Academies and/or National Tennis Centers do.

Medved
09-04-2011, 06:24 AM
Now I will say that at the elite academies, there should be clay courts for the kids to develop their games.

Why aren't there clay courts at these academies? I have a hard time believing it's just because a few elite American's like faster tennis.

Did Spanish government contribute more money to developing their tennis talent, or was it just a coincidence that a lot of their aristocrats liked to get their kids seriously into tennis. Was the Spanish public interested in tennis during the development phase or was it only after players like Rafa started dominating the sport?

LuvTheGame
09-04-2011, 08:16 AM
Look, buddy, I'm not a bandwagoner. I criticized Toni right from the beginning as early as 2007, Just look at Nadal's technique. Simply put NO GOOD coach would ever teach you to hit like this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VE_RqaEsBiM ) for example.

Oh and BTW , great players are ALWAYS great regardless of who coaches them. Did Fed stop being great after Roche? Did Sampras stop winning after
Gulikson died? Agassi fooled around with multiple coaches but still did well etc etc.

Anyway, the writing is on the wall. Nadal should have hired a "world class" professional coach a long time ago, as well as a proven fitness trainer to travel with him. With the rise of Djokovic, this has only become more critical if Nadal wants to have one last run, and not get stuck at 10 slams.

He needs people who had more "accountability", as opposed to family members who he cannot get rid of because of a supposed sense of obligation. Read the book, it almost seems like Toni is an abusive parent who later realizes that despite his best intentions, he did more harm than good.

Well said on all points. I will add one additional viewpoint Fed and Agassi changed coaches when they as players realized their game needed change to compete and stay at the top! I too read the book and Nadal questions aloud whether one aspect of Ton's trainig may a negative impact on his confidence. At the same time he credits his coach for his development as a tennis champion.

Excerts for those who having read Nadal's biography:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/rafaelnadal/8707878/Rafael-Nadal-Uncle-Toni-terrified-me-but-without-him-Id-be-nothing.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/rafaelnadal/8704892/Rafael-Nadal-family-crisis-destroyed-my-body-and-soul.html

OddJack
11-24-2011, 11:53 PM
It's the age after all, Toni was right

Nadal has almost arrived where Borg did at 26

SLD76
11-25-2011, 12:04 AM
It's the age after all, Toni was right

Nadal has almost arrived where Borg did at 26

Well who knows for sure, but if this is the result of resting for 6 weeks and training for a month and a half.........

nikdom
12-29-2011, 10:21 AM
When our own coach and uncle tells you the other guy is better, it makes sense that Rafael will have lost all confidence. I don't see a good 2012 for him.

OddJack
12-29-2011, 10:33 AM
Nadal does not listen to Toni anymore. He is passed him, he maybe playing only to torture him actually.

DoubleDeuce
12-29-2011, 10:41 AM
Nadal will be tonis slave for good. There is no way out.

Maybe his problems have roots in his relationship with Toni?? I hear its not like it used to be

nikdom
12-29-2011, 11:12 AM
Nadal will be tonis slave for good. There is no way out.

Maybe his problems have roots in his relationship with Toni?? I hear its not like it used to be

His girl may be telling him he needs to man up a little bit more against uncle Toni. I notice now she travels with him more often.

TennisFan3
12-29-2011, 12:58 PM
Nadal does not listen to Toni anymore.

And you know this how? Do you have an inner source in Nadal's camp?

By all accounts, Nadal is as servile as ever to his coach.

As I said before, their relationship goes way beyond the tennis court. Fortunately or unfortunately, they will be together until Nadal calls it a day..

timnz
12-29-2011, 02:25 PM
Well, we already knew that, but one of the reasons he brings up is interesting.
He pulls the age card! Rafa is old at 25, and he will not be playing in few years!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/02/rafael-nadal-novak-djokovic_n_946561.html

You say that Nadal is old but Djokovic is less than a year younger - hence about the same age. So you think Djokovic is old - I disagree with you.

OddJack
12-29-2011, 02:28 PM
And you know this how? Do you have an inner source in Nadal's camp?

By all accounts, Nadal is as servile as ever to his coach.

As I said before, their relationship goes way beyond the tennis court. Fortunately or unfortunately, they will be together until Nadal calls it a day..


I am sorry. I was just guessing.

http://multiply.com/mu/tompremo/image/4/photos/35/1200x120/124/Smiley-Crying.gif?et=%2Cypokc38XgkxBUve5rNMIA&nmid=65449655

OddJack
12-29-2011, 02:29 PM
You say that Nadal is old but Djokovic is less than a year younger - hence about the same age. So you think Djokovic is old - I disagree with you.

I was saying he is old tennis wise. Referring to his taxing game style.
Ask namelessness and he will explain.