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View Full Version : Federer speaks up against time wasting (cheating) !


sbengte
09-02-2011, 08:19 PM
Link to the French article titled "Roger Federer stands against Cheaters" where Federer expresses strong views against time wasting between points :

http://www.24heures.ch/federer-eleve-contre-tricheurs-2011-09-02

Google translate with small corrections. (better translation welcome)

------------
Cheaters unpunished

As we know, lax arbitral body reacted the venerable members of Wimbledon this summer. They promised loudly to enforce the chapter 'timeout' Code of Conduct to the letter. Was it a deliberate or an announcement effect? Go figure. Apparently, this initiative was not followed, unintended effects. Or, otherwise, they have escaped. For Novak Djokovic continues to bounce the ball eight to ten times before serving and Rafael Nadal still uses the same tricks to irritate his opponents, forced to the heels on the other side of the net.

Without mentioning this particular case, Roger Federer regrets the impunity of cheaters and emptiness of the catalog of sanctions. "A warning is not sufficient punishment, he said. That is even a joke. When I sit in front of my TV set and the players use and abuse of over-time, I, like any viewer switch channels . And it hurts me for tennis. Without going overboard and without prejudice sometimes extenuating circumstances, the offense should be punished by a penalty point and a fine no less. Only when touching the wallet of the players will it prove to be a deterrent. "

OddJack
09-02-2011, 08:32 PM
As a viewer I do not mind time violations,

I think at heat of the moment it adds to the drama and thats good

As a player, I dont know. I have seen Tsonga, and some others playing Nadal complained. But I dont know if I would or not.

Sentinel
09-02-2011, 08:34 PM
The wallets of some abusers are deeply lined, only penalty points will make a difference.
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRFi32uMo8iSGEsrl_sEdPJO6qDcBrai H4x5RW83EqQGhGrMnyOSg

Great thread !

LuvTheGame
09-02-2011, 09:19 PM
There is a lot of merit to what Federer is saying. And I feel the same way about the high pitch shrieking on the women's side!

Agree that neither will stop until the tennis associations decide to impose penalty points. Since they have not to date then I am guessing somehow it helps the ratings.:confused:

Crisstti
09-02-2011, 09:20 PM
People have different rhythms to play. And they should try to respect other players rhythm.

As a viewer it doesn't bother me at all if a player takes time between points... TBH I hadn't even ever noticed it before I read tennis forums (I had sometimes noticed some players playing very fast, for example I remember Ríos would often not even wait for the crowd to be quiet).
If anything it adds drama.

BTW, that article appears to be ridiculously biased. See how it just assumes that Rafa is trying to irritate opponents with that (and it doesn't assume the same about Novak).

Crisstti
09-02-2011, 09:21 PM
There is a lot of merit to what Federer is saying. And I feel the same way about the high pitch shrieking on the women's side!

Agree that neither will stop until the tennis associations decide to impose penalty points. Since they have not to date then I am guessing somehow it helps the ratings.:confused:

I'm guessing they decide to let players play their game. And let the results be decided by the players and not absurd penalties.

TMF
09-02-2011, 09:21 PM
Federer is right. Every players should follow the rules to make the game fair for everyone and no one have any distinct advantage, restore the integrity of the game. Cheating is wrong, and must be corrected.

I'm glad Federer speaks up, show some leadership. Nadal can learn from Federer to become a better person, he's like a bigger brother.

mandy01
09-02-2011, 09:25 PM
Whether or not you're a rhythm player, you should NOT abuse time limits over and over, period.
I think Roger got asked this question because so far his service games have been so quick that it had comms discussing all over how nice it is when someone doesn't need all those exaggerated routines and just plays the way tennis has been played over the years. They were taking digs at Nadal all the time talking about how he takes more time to prepare for his serve than Roger will normally do for an entire service game.

Crisstti
09-02-2011, 09:26 PM
Federer is right. Every players should follow the rules to make the game fair for everyone and no one have any distinct advantage, restore the integrity of the game. Cheating is wrong, and must be corrected.

I'm glad Federer speaks up, show some leadership. Nadal can learn from Federer to become a better person, he's like a bigger brother.

Spending some more time to serve is not cheating :rolleyes:

And anyway, a rule is hardly a rule if it's never enforced.

BeHappy
09-02-2011, 09:28 PM
Nadal doesn't really do it anymore, nothing compared to 4-5 years ago.

Down_the_line
09-02-2011, 09:29 PM
Federer is a pompous ***. And now he's a weary grumpy discombobulated pompous ***. All because he doesn't win titles anymore. And of course a narcissist to boot: because he likes playing fast, he wants to force a kind of time limit gestapo policy down our throats and no, I never change channels during a match unless the match is BORING and boy, has Fed become the ultimate specialist of that...
I suggest a game penalty for players starting to serve too soon before the opponent is ready. Obnoxious destabilizing tactic. Probably worthy of jail time. :???:
God, Fed is such a bitter tightass.

Don't get worked up or anything.

How do you know he's speaking out about it "all because he doesn't win titles anymore"? What a ridiculously dumb generalization. But of course, veroniquem has it all figured out!

Crisstti
09-02-2011, 09:34 PM
I'm a Rafa fan, but agree with Fed here. He doesn't want to force a time limit on our throats, the time limit of 25 limit is the official rule form the ATP, which both Nadal and Djokovic violate time and time again (add to that DelP). I like Roddick and Federer in the sense that they do not keep the viewers waiting.

It is okay if we are deep in a set and there was a 30 shot rally. That is a different thing, if the players towel themselves and take say 30-35sec. But Nadal and Djokovic take 25+ sec. on a LOT of points .... heck, Rafa has to wipe his biceps after each and every point (so does DelP). I'm a Rafa fan, and Fed is not even in my favorites list till we reach Djokovic, Murray, DelP and Tsonga, but honestly, Rafa & Djoker annoy me with their extra-time tactic.

M glad that Federer speaks up his mind on this, and it would be great if:

1) Time between points rule is strictly enforced with penalties
2) Shrieking is prohibited. It was finally today that I appreciated Sharapova's game (serve excluded), 'coz I was in the office with no headphones, and was watching her game on mute. Man, the girl's got some talent and firepower on her groundstrokes (which I never seem to notice 'coz of too much irritation with her shrieks).

Maybe you should try to not get annoyed by such insignificat things.

The time limit is 25 second, on paper. In reality is not enforced. That is the reality. And that is probably because a. It's too little time (which is for that matter the opinion of the poster here who is an umpire) and b. It could lead to games being decided by the umpires instead of the players.

TMF
09-02-2011, 09:37 PM
Spending some more time to serve is not cheating :rolleyes:

And anyway, a rule is hardly a rule if it's never enforced.

If he knows there's a limited time frame between point but still ignore it by keep taking more time is cheating. Nadal certainly knows what he's doing but still abuse it b/c the umpire are too afraid to call it.

Today, Ferrer got a warning by the umpire for taking too much time. Unlike Nadal, it was unintentional, but still got docked.

LuvTheGame
09-02-2011, 09:41 PM
I just quickly checked the ITF/USTA ruling on serving time. The server has 20 seconds from the end of the previous point to get the ball into play.

Even if the receiver is ready after only 10 seconds, the server can serve any time up to 20 seconds, but he/she must be reasonable about controlling the pace of the match.

Therefore it stands to reason that the server also has to be reasonable in not serving too quickly. It's also just fair and honorable and practical.

Tennis with its grand tradition supposedly stands for and teaches great ethics and morals. Not the players responsibility to enforce the rules, so what’s up ITF/USTA?

TopFH
09-02-2011, 09:41 PM
So, why do Nadal's fans are arguing here? Fed doesn't mention it. I also think that he is correct because he is following rules.

veroniquem
09-02-2011, 09:42 PM
Don't get worked up or anything.

How do you know he's speaking out about it "all because he doesn't win titles anymore"? What a ridiculously dumb generalization. But of course, veroniquem has it all figured out!


Because his tone is bitter. And embarrassingly grandiloquent/melodramatic: "it hurts me for tennis" :roll: Seriously? He talks like a Joan of Arc impersonator: he represents the Nation of Tennis and he's suffering martyrdom for its sake :???:
Pllllllllllllease. (Bring the fire already :twisted: - joke-)

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 09:44 PM
What if my rhythm is to take 2 minutes between each point, is that ok, should it be respected?

TMF
09-02-2011, 09:46 PM
Maybe you should try to not get annoyed by such insignificat things.

The time limit is 25 second, on paper. In reality is not enforced. That is the reality. And that is probably because a. It's too little time (which is for that matter the opinion of the poster here who is an umpire) and b. It could lead to games being decided by the umpires instead of the players.

That's what great about the sport....it has to be tough, it has to be challenging. Players must be tested, have pressure, overcome all obstacles.

Could you imagine the NBA remove the 24 seconds violation? It would be boring. Just like Fed say it's boring if tennis don't have time limitation.

Bryan Swartz
09-02-2011, 09:57 PM
Regardless of the nearly-irrelevant why for the comments, this is really a common-sense issue:

1. There needs to be some sort of control on how long a player has.

2. There is such a control -- the rule just needs to be enforced. Players will adjust if it is.

The problem is that it is not currently being enforced.

ViscaB
09-02-2011, 10:00 PM
Just introduce a bloody clock and there is no more bickering.

lendledbergfan
09-02-2011, 10:04 PM
Maybe you should try to not get annoyed by such insignificat things.

The time limit is 25 second, on paper. In reality is not enforced. That is the reality. And that is probably because a. It's too little time (which is for that matter the opinion of the poster here who is an umpire) and b. It could lead to games being decided by the umpires instead of the players.

Take it this way. If a Rafa fan like me, who follows every bit of news possible on him, has bought (and read his autobio), and who even argues with others on internet forums on why Rafa's MTOs are not fake yada yada yada can get annoyed/irritated by his excessive-toweling, time-taking between points, then imagine (okay, the irritation is not that exaggerated as it looks, but it stills irritates me quite a bit sometimes, especially during non-critical times in a match) what effect it will have on passive followers of the game, or those who are not Nadal fans -- it easily gets magnified. And that IS detrimental towards the game, in general.

Your part on "In reality is not enforced" .... that is what Federer is saying ... that this rule SHOULD be enforced. And I agree with this.

And as a fellow Nadal fan, there is no need to take offense to it. It is NOT cheating ('coz he is arguing against the decision of the umpire, the umpire HAS to enforce it, and when umpire does give him a warning, he does speeds up). Nadal is a human, and he is not perfect. Similarly, federer is imperfect too. But Nadal is still one of my favorite players ever.

TMF
09-02-2011, 10:05 PM
Just introduce a bloody clock and there is no more bickering.

I wish you had done that 10 years ago b/c I don't think Nadal would have 10 slams today if the clock system was enforced.:)

lendledbergfan
09-02-2011, 10:08 PM
Just introduce a bloody clock and there is no more bickering.

This is a harder problem than just introducing a clock. Because even the ITF does not want to STRICTLY enforce this. Like, it is fine for players to take more time (like 35sec.) after a brutal 20+ shot rally. Or it becomes difficult when right before the serve routine, there is a disruption in the crowd, and then the clock will have to be stopped. Ultimately, the decision again goes back to the chair umpire on when to start/stop the clock, when to enforce the clock (not after a 20+ shot rally or something) and when to not.

TennisandMusic
09-02-2011, 10:11 PM
So he wants most of the tour to get point penalties and be fined. Ok.

namelessone
09-02-2011, 10:12 PM
So he wants most of the tour to get point penalties and be fined. Ok.

They can take it. :)

On a more serious note, a clock shot or something like that would be tough to implement in a sport like tennis.

To me, the solution is simple: MAKE THE UMPIRES ENFORCE THE RULES!

The problem is that the governing body doesn't seem to be encouraging the umps to do so.

The question is: WHY?

Everybody's talking about Nadal here and he is the worst offender but there are many who are right up there with him. Djoker was right up there with him not long ago, guys like Wawrinka and Mathieu were going 7-8 seconds over ON AVERAGE in last USO and so on. As you said, the examples of timewasting are numerous. I would throw coaching in there as well.

TopFH
09-02-2011, 10:12 PM
^He wants the rules to be enforced.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-02-2011, 10:12 PM
Maybe they should allow foot faults when it's late in the match and the players' legs are beginning to give out.

cc0509
09-02-2011, 10:18 PM
So he wants most of the tour to get point penalties and be fined. Ok.

First of all it is not most of the tour and secondly, even if it were, who cares? A rule is a rule and it should be enforced. The problem is the umps don't enforce it and they have let the situation get too far just as they have with the grunting and shrieking done by so many players such as Azarenka, Sharapova, Nadal and Ferrer for example. Something should have been done about that a long time ago.

ViscaB
09-02-2011, 10:21 PM
This is a harder problem than just introducing a clock. Because even the ITF does not want to STRICTLY enforce this. Like, it is fine for players to take more time (like 35sec.) after a brutal 20+ shot rally. Or it becomes difficult when right before the serve routine, there is a disruption in the crowd, and then the clock will have to be stopped. Ultimately, the decision again goes back to the chair umpire on when to start/stop the clock, when to enforce the clock (not after a 20+ shot rally or something) and when to not.

Basically what you are saying is that a clock would give relevance to the umpire;). You can also introduce a law where each player can violate the rule a maximum number of times per set.

Bryan Swartz
09-02-2011, 10:25 PM
For the longer rallies, it wouldn't be difficult to introduce a system where the time between points started going up if a rally lasted beyond a certain length. I.e., if the point was on-going for more than 20s(or whatever), the clock could start going up so there wasn't an inordinately short rest time after long rallies.

Point being, this is an issue the ITF could solve if they really wanted to. We have rules for how long changeovers last, medical time outs, bathroom breaks, etc. We expect player fitness to be an issue at times, that is inherent in the use of such rules. Time between points is not fundamentally different, it's just been decided not to enforce a rule in this case and in my opinion that's a very big mistake.

lendledbergfan
09-02-2011, 10:28 PM
Basically what you are saying is that a clock would give relevance to the umpire;). You can also introduce a law where each player can violate the rule a maximum number of times per set.

haha...that'll be cool. After a time violation, the umpire would say ... "Mr. Nadal has four time-violations remaining". In the tie-breaker, "Both players have one additional time-violation." Pretty awesome!

mandy01
09-02-2011, 10:33 PM
This most idiotic piece of argument is the argument that the 'whole tour' does it. The question as to why they do it is never asked.
Younger players watch those who tend to represent the sport, so do other players on tour. These ' representatives' are often those right at the top of the game. And when they see such players blatantly bending and abusing time limits they think it's okay to do it. Why is it that time-wasting is increasingly becoming a trend on tour? Because players and especially the top guys are never called out, never punished for it. So they think it's okay. It's okay to take ages to come out of the locker-room, okay to to take your own sweet time before going to the net, blatantly disrespecting the opponent who's waiting for you there and then taking your own sweet time between points. It's all okay because the top guys do it and are not called out for it. So if they do it why can't the other guys? It's a chain.

TennisandMusic
09-02-2011, 10:41 PM
First of all it is not most of the tour and secondly, even if it were, who cares? A rule is a rule and it should be enforced. The problem is the umps don't enforce it and they have let the situation get too far just as they have with the grunting and shrieking done by so many players such as Azarenka, Sharapova, Nadal and Ferrer for example. Something should have been done about that a long time ago.

Actually most of the tour does do it. The numbers have been posted during tournaments. I have facts. You have...well I don't know what you have.

The reason it's not "enforced" is because it's not a big deal and no one cared until Nadal started beating Federer. Then they looked for anything they could hang on the guy. So even though Mandy doth protest, what I said was actually right on point. If it were a REAL PROBLEM this would be talked about with EVERYONE, including Federer's buddy Wawrinka. How many Federer fans here are screaming bloody murder about Wawrinka?

It's a lot like the highway. Speed limits are generally 65 but everyone goes 75-80 because that's just the pace of the road. What I really wonder is if some of the goofballs complaining about this actually walk around during the day in a funk because "Nadal" goes over the limit by a few seconds on average.

:)

mandy01
09-02-2011, 10:44 PM
The reason it's not "enforced" is because it's not a big deal and no one cared until Nadal started beating Federer.
This is simply a fabricated piece of garbage. Players used to complain about Nadal's time-wasting in his initial years on tour and that time he wasn't even a big force especially outside clay. So you might as well keep this nonsense to those fools who will buy it.

sbengte
09-02-2011, 10:46 PM
Federer is a pompous ***. And now he's a weary grumpy discombobulated pompous ***. All because he doesn't win titles anymore. And of course a narcissist to boot: because he likes playing fast, he wants to force a kind of time limit gestapo policy down our throats and no, I never change channels during a match unless the match is BORING and boy, has Fed become the ultimate specialist of that...
I suggest a game penalty for players starting to serve too soon before the opponent is ready. Obnoxious destabilizing tactic. Probably worthy of jail time. :???:
God, Fed is such a bitter tightass.

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpauvbRQW41qdynk3o1_400.gif

Caracalla
09-02-2011, 10:48 PM
obviously theres is true to that but he is near retirement and tries to pull whatever he can to make it difficult for others..

let it be the way always was..

he's been doing his job fixing the ranking again to benefit him self when he was at the top. I don't see him talking about it now that Djokovic is at the top practically unreachable at least for this year..

whats next.. penalty if you jump while serving like in the old days hahaha...

just leave it the way it is.. since only few players do it.. and coincidently they are ahead of Federer :D

TennisandMusic
09-02-2011, 10:48 PM
This is simply a fabricated piece of garbage. Players used to complain about Nadal's time-wasting in his initial years on tour and that time he wasn't even a big force especially outside clay. So you might as well keep this nonsense to those fools who will buy it.

You know, repeating a lie often enough doesn't make it true. Age old tactic though. If it's a Nadal problem then why is he the only one who is complained about by Federer fans when the majority of guys do it? Are you outraged at Wawrinka who takes the same amount of time? What about Djokovic, Del Potro, etc. etc. ad infinitum? Just answer that and quit tossing around insults as a defense tactic. You have nothing to stand on on this one, ok? I think you should be wary of tossing around words like "fool".

DeShaun
09-02-2011, 10:49 PM
We do needed if someone keep abusing it to a point that destroyed the other player's rhythm, and has such an effect that can makes the difference between losing and winning.

Keep in mind we never had this problem before the arrival of Nadal on tour.

Federer is not doing this for himself, but for all the players. He's trying to save the sport.

Thank you.
Rafa's intent to destroy his opponent's rhythm in between points by dawdling incessantly and miking the moments in between dry repeatedly (unless he is trying to fast serve as opponent, which I have honestly seen him do from time to time) has always been patently obvious to my eye, and it has always made him less watchable in my objective opinion. He's still a great champion and always will be but it must be acknowledged that he has suspiciously been the first and most consistent exploiter of an official lack of enforcement of a rule that was rarely if ever tested/flouted so egregiously by those champions who came before Rafa...and if you cannot admit this then you are probably biased to an unhealthy degree.

TennisandMusic
09-02-2011, 10:52 PM
Thank you.
Rafa's intent to destroy his opponent's rhythm in between points by dawdling incessantly and miking the moments in between dry repeatedly (unless he is trying to fast serve as opponent, which I have honestly seen him do from time to time) has always been patently obvious to my eye, and it has always made him less watchable in my objective opinion. He's still a great champion and always will be but it must be acknowledged that he has suspiciously been the first and most consistent exploiter of an official lack of enforcement of a rule that was rarely if ever tested/flouted so egregiously by those champions who came before Rafa...and if you cannot admit this then you are probably biased to an unhealthy degree.

Dude this is an out and out lie. :lol: This is what I am talking about. You guys have no logic whatsoever about this and it's all purely based on selfish and blind hatred. Having a discussion on this reminds me an AWFUL lot of this video, with Federer fans being the "home owner" of course (in terms of the logic being applied).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=engKtLw0JTM

If it's REALLY a problem, then talk about EVERYONE who does it. And then have the umps enforce it. Ergo, because it is not enforced and the only people who have a problem with it are related to Federer and directed towards Nadal, it's all a bunch of complete bullcrap.

rafan
09-02-2011, 10:54 PM
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lpauvbRQW41qdynk3o1_400.gif

Yes he may have a wonderful record. However now he shouldn't sully it by behaving like a bitter old fool

cc0509
09-02-2011, 10:59 PM
yes yes I really agree. He sounds like the wailing of an old orchestra that has known better days. There is no dignity there only vanity

Then don't read it. If you don't like a person why read what he says in press conferences? If you don't like an author do you read a book of his/hers?
He is not bitter sounding at all. He is stating his opinion about a problem that has been well-known in tennis for years and has been written about time and time again. Federer did not make this stuff up.

abmk
09-02-2011, 11:01 PM
The reason it's not "enforced" is because it's not a big deal and no one cared until Nadal started beating Federer.

:)

typical blindness caused by nadal fanboyism. Agassi for instance complained about nadal's delays in 2005

cc0509
09-02-2011, 11:01 PM
They can take it. :)

On a more serious note, a clock shot or something like that would be tough to implement in a sport like tennis.

To me, the solution is simple: MAKE THE UMPIRES ENFORCE THE RULES!
The problem is that the governing body doesn't seem to be encouraging the umps to do so.The question is: WHY?

Everybody's talking about Nadal here and he is the worst offender but there are many who are right up there with him. Djoker was right up there with him not long ago, guys like Wawrinka and Mathieu were going 7-8 seconds over ON AVERAGE in last USO and so on. As you said, the examples of timewasting are numerous. I would throw coaching in there as well.

I agree 100%. It has been talked about for forever yet the rules are not enforced. Crazy!

abmk
09-02-2011, 11:02 PM
You know, repeating a lie often enough doesn't make it true. Age old tactic though. If it's a Nadal problem then why is he the only one who is complained about by Federer fans when the majority of guys do it? Are you outraged at Wawrinka who takes the same amount of time? What about Djokovic, Del Potro, etc. etc. ad infinitum? Just answer that and quit tossing around insults as a defense tactic. You have nothing to stand on on this one, ok? I think you should be wary of tossing around words like "fool".

its not just nadal , but also the likes of djoker, delpo, wawrinka as well ..

Nadal and djoker are singled out more so because they are top players and more in the spotlight

Notice federer is talking about it as a problem in general here ...

DeShaun
09-02-2011, 11:02 PM
Dude this is an out and out lie. :lol: This is what I am talking about. You guys have no logic whatsoever about this and it's all purely based on selfish and blind hatred. Having a discussion on this reminds me an AWFUL lot of this video, with Federer fans being the "home owner" of course (in terms of the logic being applied).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=engKtLw0JTM

If it's REALLY a problem, then talk about EVERYONE who does it. And then have the umps enforce it. Ergo, because it is not enforced and the only people who have a problem with it are related to Federer and directed towards Nadal, it's all a bunch of complete bullcrap.

Key words: "incessantly," "repeatedly"

case closed
He's an awesome champion, but such is an integral part of his game.

TennisandMusic
09-02-2011, 11:03 PM
typical blindness caused by nadal fanboyism. Agassi for instance complained about nadal's delays in 2005

Agassi also liked to "cheat" by rushing opponents. Perhaps Agassi was playing mind games? Kind of funny considering most of the tour goes over the time limit. Man, you're not listening.

"Typical blindness caused by Federer fanboyism." See how ad hominem attacks work? It's stupid. Deal with facts. If it's a real problem, talk about everyone. Period.

cc0509
09-02-2011, 11:04 PM
Degree of flexibility? Hmmm, doesn't that really mean no enforcement at all? How many seconds will ump A's flexibility allow? 5 seconds? why not 6?

No, it is only degree of flexibility where Nadal is concerned according to veronique. It if were Federer who was flexible and Nadal was quick in between points her degree of flexibility theory would be out the window in a flash! :wink:

abmk
09-02-2011, 11:06 PM
Agassi also liked to "cheat" by rushing opponents. Perhaps Agassi was playing mind games? Kind of funny considering most of the tour goes over the time limit. Man, you're not listening.

"Typical blindness caused by Federer fanboyism." See how ad hominem attacks work? It's stupid. Deal with facts. If it's a real problem, talk about everyone. Period.

no, its because nadal was time-wasting .

I posted about 'everyone' in my previous post

TennisandMusic
09-02-2011, 11:06 PM
Key words: "incessantly," "repeatedly"

case closed
He's an awesome champion, but such is an integral part of his game.

And once again, it's most of the players.

Anyway...I am done on this one. You guys are simply attacking Nadal. It's not an uninteresting topic, but it's being handled as a character assassination and that's just boring. It would be like if Nadal fans started going after Djokovic now for "time wasting." I realize there would be a hypocritical factor there since Nadal generally goes over the limit as well, where Federer doesn't, but if you are actually concerned about the RULE, talk about the rule, and all of the players. I don't buy into the "top players are more focused on" argument. Djokovic is the clear number 1 now and you guys are STILL focusing on Nadal. ;) You are therefore betraying your motivations.

Again, it's an interesting topic, but to treat it as such talk about the topic. You are attacking a person. HUGE difference there. Anyway I am out for tonight. Back to real life where actual things happen. :p

cc0509
09-02-2011, 11:09 PM
Actually most of the tour does do it. The numbers have been posted during tournaments. I have facts. You have...well I don't know what you have.

The reason it's not "enforced" is because it's not a big deal and no one cared until Nadal started beating Federer. Then they looked for anything they could hang on the guy. So even though Mandy doth protest, what I said was actually right on point. If it were a REAL PROBLEM this would be talked about with EVERYONE, including Federer's buddy Wawrinka. How many Federer fans here are screaming bloody murder about Wawrinka?

It's a lot like the highway. Speed limits are generally 65 but everyone goes 75-80 because that's just the pace of the road. What I really wonder is if some of the goofballs complaining about this actually walk around during the day in a funk because "Nadal" goes over the limit by a few seconds on average.

:)

It is not Federer fans who are out to get Nadal. That is a paranoid way to think about it. As I said, personally Nadal's delay tactics don't bother me, but if tennis has rules, they should be enforced and the fact of the matter is they are not enforced. End of story. Don't make it into a hate thing against a player, that is stupid, especially a player who is one of the greatest in the history of the sport. Get real. The whole world does not revolve around any one player whether it is Federer or Nadal. A rule is a rule and obviously they are having trouble enforcing these rules for whatever reasons.

mandy01
09-02-2011, 11:11 PM
You know, repeating a lie often enough doesn't make it true. Age old tactic though. If it's a Nadal problem then why is he the only one who is complained about by Federer fans when the majority of guys do it? Are you outraged at Wawrinka who takes the same amount of time? What about Djokovic, Del Potro, etc. etc. ad infinitum? Just answer that and quit tossing around insults as a defense tactic. You have nothing to stand on on this one, ok? I think you should be wary of tossing around words like "fool".Repeating a lie? Tell that to yourself. Are you denying players have complained about Nadal's time-wasting? If not, then you have no argument here.
As regards why Federer fans complain about Nadal- Ask yourself why Nadal fans such as yourself constantly label Federer as arrogant,bitter and what not when there are far, far worse cases on tour. You'll find your answer right there. I don't see you calling out your fellow *****.
Now, with regard to Djokovic, Del Po etc-People HAVE complained about them on numerous occasions. Particularly Djokovic. If Nadal gets more flak overall, it is because his fans also dish out that level of flak. So don't even think of playing the victim.
As to me tossing around words-I'll toss them when they apply to you nd your ilk perfectly.
:)

abmk
09-02-2011, 11:13 PM
And once again, it's most of the players.

Anyway...I am done on this one. You guys are simply attacking Nadal. It's not an uninteresting topic, but it's being handled as a character assassination and that's just boring. It would be like if Nadal fans started going after Djokovic now for "time wasting." I realize there would be a hypocritical factor there since Nadal generally goes over the limit as well, where Federer doesn't, but if you are actually concerned about the RULE, talk about the rule, and all of the players. I don't buy into the "top players are more focused on" argument. Djokovic is the clear number 1 now and you guys are STILL focusing on Nadal. ;) You are therefore betraying your motivations.

Again, it's an interesting topic, but to treat it as such talk about the topic. You are attacking a person. HUGE difference there. Anyway I am out for tonight. Back to real life where actual things happen. :p

yes, attacking a person, for example the first point by a nadal fan on this thread:

Federer is a pompous ***. And now he's a weary grumpy discombobulated pompous ***. All because he doesn't win titles anymore. And of course a narcissist to boot: because he likes playing fast, he wants to force a kind of time limit gestapo policy down our throats and no, I never change channels during a match unless the match is BORING and boy, has Fed become the ultimate specialist of that...
I suggest a game penalty for players starting to serve too soon before the opponent is ready. Obnoxious destabilizing tactic. Probably worthy of jail time. :???:
God, Fed is such a bitter tightass.

notice, no one even mentioned nadal until then ..

@ bold part: you don't ???? Well learn something about the real world then. The top players are in the spotlight. There have been lot of complaints about djokovic as well

rommil
09-02-2011, 11:14 PM
Federer is a pompous ***. And now he's a weary grumpy discombobulated pompous ***. All because he doesn't win titles anymore. And of course a narcissist to boot: because he likes playing fast, he wants to force a kind of time limit gestapo policy down our throats and no, I never change channels during a match unless the match is BORING and boy, has Fed become the ultimate specialist of that...
I suggest a game penalty for players starting to serve too soon before the opponent is ready. Obnoxious destabilizing tactic. Probably worthy of jail time. :???:
God, Fed is such a bitter tightass.

Because his tone is bitter. And embarrassingly grandiloquent/melodramatic: "it hurts me for tennis" :roll: Seriously? He talks like a Joan of Arc impersonator: he represents the Nation of Tennis and he's suffering martyrdom for its sake :???:
Pllllllllllllease. (Bring the fire already :twisted: - joke-)

If it were the other way around and Federer is the one that's going over the time limit, you would be on his case non stop.

LOL his tone is bitter? Nothing could be more bitter than what you wrote.

cc0509
09-02-2011, 11:15 PM
its not just nadal , but also the likes of djoker, delpo, wawrinka as well ..

Nadal and djoker are singled out more so because they are top players and more in the spotlight

Notice federer is talking about it as a problem in general here ...

AFTER he was asked a question about it. What is Federer supposed to do, sit there and say nothing. But Nadal fanatics can't handle his answer even though it was not directed towards any one player(s). Right away *******s have to opine that Federer is bitter about Nadal's and Djokovic's success. How stupid! Yes, poor untalented Federer who is in the GOAT convo. Are Nadal and Djokovic? :rolleyes:

rommil
09-02-2011, 11:16 PM
Spending some more time to serve is not cheating :rolleyes:

And anyway, a rule is hardly a rule if it's never enforced.

Did you just get off the short bus? Rafa, and other players, have been warned about it numerous times.

rommil
09-02-2011, 11:18 PM
Haha...

he never mentioned Nadal, yet his fans are foaming at the mouth...

If the shoe fits, wear it :D

They are always foaming in the mouth. It's a requirement for them.

cc0509
09-02-2011, 11:19 PM
And once again, it's most of the players.

Anyway...I am done on this one. You guys are simply attacking Nadal. It's not an uninteresting topic, but it's being handled as a character assassination and that's just boring. It would be like if Nadal fans started going after Djokovic now for "time wasting." I realize there would be a hypocritical factor there since Nadal generally goes over the limit as well, where Federer doesn't, but if you are actually concerned about the RULE, talk about the rule, and all of the players. I don't buy into the "top players are more focused on" argument. Djokovic is the clear number 1 now and you guys are STILL focusing on Nadal. ;) You are therefore betraying your motivations.

Again, it's an interesting topic, but to treat it as such talk about the topic. You are attacking a person. HUGE difference there. Anyway I am out for tonight. Back to real life where actual things happen. :p



No, you have it backwards. *******s are attacking Federer about an answer to a question he was asked about. Right away *******s attacked Federer thinking Federer was attacking Nadal about his time delays. That is nonsense. Federer made a general statement.

Ico
09-02-2011, 11:20 PM
(nonsensical rant)
God, Fed is such a bitter tightass.
Pot, meet kettle.

cc0509
09-02-2011, 11:22 PM
If it were the other way around and Federer is the one that's going over the time limit, you would be on his case non stop.

LOL his tone is bitter? Nothing could be more bitter than what you wrote.

That is exactly what I said above. It is so blatantly obvious it is crazy.

DragonBlaze
09-02-2011, 11:25 PM
It's funny how people are attacking Federer here when really it's the authour of the article who is extremely biased and has used very colourful language to make Federer come off as one way.

If you look at the quotes in isolation, he has decent points and it's just his opinion.

veroniquem
09-02-2011, 11:29 PM
If it were the other way around and Federer is the one that's going over the time limit, you would be on his case non stop.

LOL his tone is bitter? Nothing could be more bitter than what you wrote.



I have never nagged any player around time issues. I prefer leaving it to the ump and focusing on having fun, and as far as drama and excitement are concerned, the longer the match, the better. (I also want players to have time to react and express emotions and not rush to the office like some robotic employees of a tennistic version of "metropolis". But of course that's exactly what Fed's personality is like, so I'm not surprised that would be his choice).

rommil
09-02-2011, 11:29 PM
It's funny how people are attacking Federer here when really it's the authour of the article who is extremely biased and has used very colourful language to make Federer come off as one way.

If you look at the quotes in isolation, he has decent points and it's just his opinion.

Goodluck explaining that point to 5 year olds and maniacal post menopausal females (and male), just about makes up the Nadal fanbase.

rommil
09-02-2011, 11:30 PM
I have never nagged any player around time issues. I prefer leaving it to the ump and focusing on having fun, and as far as drama and excitement are concerned, the longer the match, the better.

Why would you? Because Nadal is one of the leading offenders, if not the worst.

Bud
09-02-2011, 11:32 PM
Federer is a pompous ***. And now he's a weary grumpy discombobulated pompous ***. All because he doesn't win titles anymore. And of course a narcissist to boot: because he likes playing fast, he wants to force a kind of time limit gestapo policy down our throats and no, I never change channels during a match unless the match is BORING and boy, has Fed become the ultimate specialist of that...
I suggest a game penalty for players starting to serve too soon before the opponent is ready. Obnoxious destabilizing tactic. Probably worthy of jail time. :???:
God, Fed is such a bitter tightass.

You can get that way when you're not winning :)

rommil
09-02-2011, 11:33 PM
You can get that way when you're not winning :)

Speaking from personal experience, I presume?

Ico
09-02-2011, 11:35 PM
You can get that way when you're not winning :)
Then surely Nadal is on his way.

Bud
09-02-2011, 11:44 PM
Then surely Nadal is on his way.

Brilliant retort :):rolleyes:

rommil
09-02-2011, 11:47 PM
Brilliant retort :):rolleyes:

How would you score it? A 4.0/Polansky level maybe?

Ico
09-02-2011, 11:54 PM
Brilliant retort :):rolleyes:
Brilliant retort :):rolleyes:
10brilliantretorts

veroniquem
09-02-2011, 11:56 PM
Then surely Nadal is on his way.




And yet he's not. That's all the difference between Rafa's and Fed's personality I guess. Rafa doesn't hallucinate he is Superman on a mission to saving tennis. Rafa is too down to earth for that kind of nonsense.

Ico
09-03-2011, 12:04 AM
Rafa is too down to earth for that kind of nonsense.
Short-term memory?
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=394966&highlight=court+speed

Doesn't really get more nonsensical than that. :rolleyes:

veroniquem
09-03-2011, 12:25 AM
Short-term memory?
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=394966&highlight=court+speed

Doesn't really get more nonsensical than that. :rolleyes:



How is that relevant to passing categoric and contemptuous judgements on tennis rules and other players? His English is limited but the idea is neither accusatory nor paranoid: that players have different sensations on different courts and can sometimes evaluate the court differently according to their form and style of play + that not all the courts at 1 venue (like USO) play the same.
You can disagree 100% but you can't say it has anything to do with the megalomaniac delirium of crying about tennis dying and being the hero responsible for saving it while implicitly accusing colleagues of trying to destroy it. Scary stuff, poor Fed :oops:

Murrayfan31
09-03-2011, 12:26 AM
Yeah Nadal needs to stop wasting time. That cheater.

jerriy
09-03-2011, 12:32 AM
People have different rhythms to play. And they should try to respect other players rhythm.:rolleyes:

It's illegal AND morally reprehensible to incorporate and embed bad-sportsmanship into your "rhythm".

TheTruth
09-03-2011, 12:32 AM
Federer is a pompous ***. And now he's a weary grumpy discombobulated pompous ***. All because he doesn't win titles anymore. And of course a narcissist to boot: because he likes playing fast, he wants to force a kind of time limit gestapo policy down our throats and no, I never change channels during a match unless the match is BORING and boy, has Fed become the ultimate specialist of that...
I suggest a game penalty for players starting to serve too soon before the opponent is ready. Obnoxious destabilizing tactic. Probably worthy of jail time. :???:God, Fed is such a bitter tightass.

Agree with everything. Such a poor loser attitude. After all these years we're supposed to believe he's offended, after he's repeatedly said such things don't bother him.

That's why I can't get into him. He's such a phony.

Clay lover
09-03-2011, 12:37 AM
A fine is too much, but a point penalty sounds reasonable. The problem now is that the umpires doesn't really dare to enforce it but when they really start doing it, it would be a great deterrent if they put the point penalty in place as well.

But the thing about tennis is you have long points where players need to rest and some situations eg fan interference and the umpire has to take those into consideration as well.

jerriy
09-03-2011, 12:40 AM
Therefore it stands to reason that the server also has to be reasonable in not serving too quickly. It's also just fair and honorable and practical. There is no such a thing as serving too quickly. It's a ********* (Veroniqe) invented "argument for the sake of argument" (in order to justify Nadal's bad sportsmanship and rule breach.

There is of course the provided 20 second time limit to get ready but that does NOT mean that players have a "right" to a mini break of 20 seconds. 20 seconds is a MAXIMUM LIMIT not a minimum time that needs to be taken.

TheTruth
09-03-2011, 12:42 AM
Because his tone is bitter. And embarrassingly grandiloquent/melodramatic: "it hurts me for tennis" :roll: Seriously? He talks like a Joan of Arc impersonator: he represents the Nation of Tennis and he's suffering martyrdom for its sake :???:
Pllllllllllllease. (Bring the fire already :twisted: - joke-)

That's hilarious!
http://imgsrv2.tennisuniverse.com/wtaworld/images/smilies/haha.gif

It does smack of martyrdom. He's sooooo offended, with his quick serving self. Guess it's OK in LaLa land to rob the opponent of his 20 seconds.

That's just dumb. In order to enforce this asinine rule, everyone should serve within the 20 second limit. Those who serve in three seconds or less, have robbed the other player of their given time.

The game is about tennis, not seconds counting. Funny how all of this stuff is coming out when he's being referred to as the "forgotten man." Guess you have to do something when you're no longer feeling relevant.

TheTruth
09-03-2011, 12:44 AM
I wish you had done that 10 years ago b/c I don't think Nadal would have 10 slams today if the clock system was enforced.:)

Or, your girl Sharapova.

Be fair!

Ballbashing Grinder
09-03-2011, 12:45 AM
Here is what Fed said in his presser:

Q. Are you comfortable with the level of latitude that officials give players, or do you think it's maybe gotten too strict?

ROGER FEDERER: You mean in terms what we're allowed or not allowed to do?

Q. Yeah.

ROGER FEDERER: What do I think? I still think we can push the boundaries. If you look at how much time we can take walking onto the match, onto the court until the first ball is hit, I mean, there are many times where it takes way too long between points. I mean, I still think officials should and could be more strict. Sometimes I wonder if they're more strict on the outside courts than on the big courts, even though on the big courts you kind of give some leeway, right, to players, because you know they're not doing it out of not being fair, but just that's how they do it. I've felt like this last six months they've been trying to speed up the warmups. You know, instead of saying, Two minutes they say three minutes and stuff when you're at net and stuff. I think that's good, because I think it's a bit of a waste of time, to be quite honest, this whole prewarmup and stuff. Other than that, you know, crack a racquet right away, warning, right away money you have to pay. I mean, it's whatever it is, you know. I think they try to understand the players, too. Some don't; some do. It's a tough call. I don't know. I think it's important also that we are good role models and so forth. Otherwise it gets out of control again and people use too many things trying to win, which is unfair, as well. I guess it's okay to some degree, even though a bit more leeway could be not bad, you know.

Found the bolded part interesting. So he's not accusing these guys of gamesmanship then, just taking it as that's their rhythm, but obviously still wants to have it sped up a bit.

TheTruth
09-03-2011, 12:49 AM
Actually most of the tour does do it. The numbers have been posted during tournaments. I have facts. You have...well I don't know what you have.

The reason it's not "enforced" is because it's not a big deal and no one cared until Nadal started beating Federer. Then they looked for anything they could hang on the guy. So even though Mandy doth protest, what I said was actually right on point. If it were a REAL PROBLEM this would be talked about with EVERYONE, including Federer's buddy Wawrinka. How many Federer fans here are screaming bloody murder about Wawrinka?It's a lot like the highway. Speed limits are generally 65 but everyone goes 75-80 because that's just the pace of the road. What I really wonder is if some of the goofballs complaining about this actually walk around during the day in a funk because "Nadal" goes over the limit by a few seconds on average.

:)

A lot of truth in this post.

No one says anything about Maria, Ivanovic, Hantuchova, Roddick, and the many others who do it routinely. That's why they took the shot clock off the screen because it showed the real truth. Now, they just spread the lies in their ever spinning propraganda wheel, knowing it's false, but also knowing that many will go along with it.

TheTruth
09-03-2011, 12:52 AM
Dude this is an out and out lie. :lol: This is what I am talking about. You guys have no logic whatsoever about this and it's all purely based on selfish and blind hatred. Having a discussion on this reminds me an AWFUL lot of this video, with Federer fans being the "home owner" of course (in terms of the logic being applied).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?source=patrick.net&v=engKtLw0JTM

If it's REALLY a problem, then talk about EVERYONE who does it. And then have the umps enforce it. Ergo, because it is not enforced and the only people who have a problem with it are related to Federer and directed towards Nadal, it's all a bunch of complete bullcrap.

Ergo, indeed.

They still haven't mentioned the other "time wasters." They're fixated on Nadal, because he has owned their boy from the get. Real truth!

jerriy
09-03-2011, 12:54 AM
Sometimes I wonder if they're more strict on the outside courts than on the big courtsExactly.

Clearly there is apartheid and discrimination going on and that's unacceptable.

Fed being half South African and a friend of Mandela is as usual standing up for the little man rather than for the spoiled, spoon-fed, feather-bedded top-ten or top whatever brats (not all but some of the top rank players are rotten brats) that always get to play their important matches on show courts and diabolically manipulate the sizable crowd in order to intimidate umpires and extract extra timeout seconds and minutes that nevertheless are illegal and bad sports.

DeShaun
09-03-2011, 12:55 AM
How is that relevant to passing categoric and contemptuous judgements on tennis rules and other players? His English is limited but the idea is neither accusatory nor paranoid: that players have different sensations on different courts and can sometimes evaluate the court differently according to their form and style of play + that not all the courts at 1 venue (like USO) play the same.
You can disagree 100% but you can't say it has anything to do with the megalomaniac delirium of crying about tennis dying and being the hero responsible for saving it while implicitly accusing colleagues of trying to destroy it. Scary stuff, poor Fed :oops:

So much hyperbole for such a tiny idea. We get it, you dislike Roger.

veroniquem
09-03-2011, 01:05 AM
Agree with everything. Such a poor loser attitude. After all these years we're supposed to believe he's offended, after he's repeatedly said such things don't bother him.

That's why I can't get into him. He's such a phony.



And by the way, it's clearly a jab at both Djoko and Rafa. Fed is doing his usual pre-potential crucial matches diffamatory mindgames. It never works but it never fails either at making him look like a fool.
I guess if he loses to Cilic, the excuse will be all ready: he took too much time between serves and it's killing me (and tennis of course since he believes he IS tennis :)) His delusions of grandeur are always a source of wonder.

zagor
09-03-2011, 01:06 AM
I agree completely with Fed on this one, he has a right to speak his mind,players who go repeteadly over the time limit are abusing the rule whether Fed said something or not and yes IMO it's bad for viewership.

I think they should put a shot clock with umpire being able to increase it 5-10 seconds after a grueling rally or the distraction from the crowd etc. sort of like stoppage time in soccer.

abmk
09-03-2011, 01:08 AM
A lot of truth in this post.

No one says anything about Maria, Ivanovic, Hantuchova, Roddick, and the many others who do it routinely. That's why they took the shot clock off the screen because it showed the real truth. Now, they just spread the lies in their ever spinning propraganda wheel, knowing it's false, but also knowing that many will go along with it.

another clueless post. Roddick doesn't go over the time-limit routinely.

RF_fan
09-03-2011, 01:09 AM
Imagine you're ready to return serve, server looks like he's ready but then he pauses, bounces the ball, etc. He could bounce the ball 3 times or 15... and you have to stay ready with maximum focus for 10... 15 seconds. It's gamesmanship and could be distracting.

zagor
09-03-2011, 01:12 AM
another clueless post. Roddick doesn't go over the time-limit routinely.

Actually, Roddick usually plays at a very fast pace, he's up from the chair before the umpire says time and usually takes very little pause between serves.

abmk
09-03-2011, 01:13 AM
And by the way, it's clearly a jab at both Djoko and Rafa. Fed is doing his usual pre-potential crucial matches diffamatory mindgames. It never works but it never fails either at making him look like a fool.
I guess if he loses to Cilic, the excuse will be all ready: he took too much time between serves and it's killing me (and tennis of course since he believes he IS tennis :)) His delusions of grandeur are always a source of wonder.

oh believe me , the delusions about fed that you make are far far more entertaining. . Your totally hypocritical and delusional posts about anything remotely anti-Rafa keep a lot of people here entertained.

If you are really a teacher as you claim, I really pity the students !

abmk
09-03-2011, 01:15 AM
Actually, Roddick usually plays at a very fast pace, he's up from the chair before the umpire says time and usually takes very little pause between serves.

true ........Its funny how these *********s make up stuff as per their convenience.

Funnily this time fed didn't even mention Nadal and they are up in arms because fed said time-wasting should not be there in general !

DragonBlaze
09-03-2011, 01:16 AM
And by the way, it's clearly a jab at both Djoko and Rafa. Fed is doing his usual pre-potential crucial matches diffamatory mindgames. It never works but it never fails either at making him look like a fool.
I guess if he loses to Cilic, the excuse will be all ready: he took too much time between serves and it's killing me (and tennis of course since he believes he IS tennis :)) His delusions of grandeur are always a source of wonder.

It is only that in your own little world along with the authour of the article. Federer makes no mention of those two at all, actually READ post no. 96 which is his ACTUAL quote. The original article was also a google translation, so who knows how accurate his supposed quotes in there are.

Some of you people's reading comprehension is so poor it's amazing. It's like when somebody made an a thread about an article in which Nadal was quoted as saying "I find Pete's game boring. It's not real tennis. I think viewers find it more exciting these days".

Ofcourse many trolls had the EXACT same response you did, about Nadal being up himself, how DARE he make such a generalising statement etc etc.
Turned out the statements had been twisted such as here.

The funniest thing will be my post is going to get completely ignored and there will be several pages of pointless arguments.

Cesc Fabregas
09-03-2011, 01:19 AM
Federer can be such a wet lettuce.

zagor
09-03-2011, 01:22 AM
true ........Its funny how these *********s make up stuff as per their convenience.

Not just that, it shows they don't watch much tennis aside from Nadal. Roddick playing at a fast pace is almost common knowledge for any tennis fan.

Funnily this time fed didn't even mention Nadal and they are up in arms because fed said time-wasting should not be there in general !

Well Nadal/Sampras fans never needed much to go after Fed and start insulting him as a person. Then again it's true the other way around as well, Fed fans easily jump on Nadal as well.

TheTruth
09-03-2011, 01:27 AM
And by the way, it's clearly a jab at both Djoko and Rafa. Fed is doing his usual pre-potential crucial matches diffamatory mindgames. It never works but it never fails either at making him look like a fool.
I guess if he loses to Cilic, the excuse will be all ready: he took too much time between serves and it's killing me (and tennis of course since he believes he IS tennis :)) His delusions of grandeur are always a source of wonder.

Of course it is. This is what I've never liked about Federer, his mouth. It's revolting. There are too many comments like these, and they can't all be misquotes. He has a virtual history of saying these kinds of things, as if he really does think he's the king of tennis.

Take care of your side of the court and keep your snide, defamatory remarks to yourself. He's such a pill!

mandy01
09-03-2011, 01:42 AM
If it was a jab at Djokovic and Nadal then I'm glad Roger took it. For all their goody-goody talk in press conferences, neither have them have any real respect for their opponents as evidenced by their antics on court.

Colin
09-03-2011, 02:03 AM
A lot of truth in this post.

No one says anything about Maria, Ivanovic, Hantuchova, Roddick, and the many others who do it routinely. That's why they took the shot clock off the screen because it showed the real truth. Now, they just spread the lies in their ever spinning propraganda wheel, knowing it's false, but also knowing that many will go along with it.

Since when does Roddick routinely take longer than the time limit allows? The commentators always seem to make a point about how quickly he serves. One of the reasons I think many of those same announcers love Rafa is how much extra time he allows them to blather while he prepares to serve. For that reason alone, umpires should begin enforcing this rule with an iron fist.

Now to the poster who made an apt comparison with traffic enforcement. While it is true Fed comes off as your mother driving 5 mph below the speed limit in the slow lane and many others are going 5-10 mph over with regularity as busy cops shrug, Nadal — with the focus given to routines and water bottle placement and the adjustment of unmentionables — is like the red convertible speeding at 95 past other cars, daring officers to pull him over and laughing uproariously when they won't, confident that the next time he can go 100 mph. (And Djokovic, for his part, is like a 20-year-old in a silver Lamborghini.)

I'm not sure how, as certain posters suggest, that time violations add to the drama. Zvonareva taking a losing racquet to task? Indeed. Roddick berating an obstinate umpire? Sure. Perhaps its my critical disposition, but I just can't find high theater in time-wasting maneuvers. "Gee, I wonder if Novak will bounce the ball 12 times or 16?" you might find yourself asking. I say get on with it and show us some tennis. If it's a matter of needing recuperation time after too many extended rallies, perhaps that's a proper incentive for players to shorten a point or two. Alas, the combination of dull rallies and time-wasting between points adds up to a match that's quite a bit less exciting than the clock suggests.

The thing is that it's a rule, and, whatever your opinion, it either needs to be enforced or thrown out. Otherwise, you're leaving too much discretion for the umpires and raising fairness issues.

I think Fed is very much in the right to impugn this impunity.

Sartorius
09-03-2011, 02:10 AM
Because his tone is bitter. And embarrassingly grandiloquent/melodramatic: "it hurts me for tennis" :roll:

That's a google translation, oh wise lady. I don't know French, but I'd guess the proper translation would sound "better", for you at least... Reminds me, I wish you and TheTruth would always post in distorted English, so I could also smile a little while sighing each and every time.

As for Federer, I sympathize with him especially from a "watching a tennis match" point of view. For instance; Nadal and Djokovic have almost always exciting matches between them, yet there is always a point where I find myself almost falling a sleep, this actually happened in their Miami or IW match this year... You may disagree, but if you suggest that calling out on long intervals between points and serves is "grandiloquent"... well, then you certainly are grandiloquent.

I don't think Federer is taking a jab at Djokovic or Nadal here though, they are not the only players who does it anyway. Federer almost always talks about how the game today has a lot of fair play, especially at the top; I'd think post #96 actually gives a more proper insight of Federer's (the post which, of course, Veroniquem "I Vomit FedHate Everyday" and "I Agree, You Are A Great Poster" TheTruth probably ignored).

FD3S
09-03-2011, 02:13 AM
Since when does Roddick routinely take longer than the time limit allows? The commentators always seem to make a point about how quickly he serves. One of the reasons I think many of those same announcers love Rafa is how much extra time he allows them to blather while he prepares to serve. For that reason alone, umpires should begin enforcing this rule with an iron fist.

Now to the poster who made an apt comparison with traffic enforcement. While it is true Fed comes off as your mother driving 5 mph below the speed limit in the slow lane and many others are going 5-10 mph over with regularity as busy cops shrug, Nadal — with the focus given to routines and water bottle placement and the adjustment of unmentionables — is like the red convertible speeding at 95 past other cars, daring officers to pull him over and laughing uproariously when they won't, confident that the next time he can go 100 mph. (And Djokovic, for his part, is like a 20-year-old in a silver Lamborghini.)

I'm not sure how, as certain posters suggest, that time violations add to the drama. Zvonareva taking a losing racquet to task? Indeed. Roddick berating an obstinate umpire? Sure. Perhaps its my critical disposition, but I just can't find high theater in time-wasting maneuvers. "Gee, I wonder if Novak will bounce the ball 12 times or 16?" you might find yourself asking. I say get on with it and show us some tennis. If it's a matter of needing recuperation time after too many extended rallies, perhaps that's a proper incentive for players to shorten a point or two. Alas, the combination of dull rallies and time-wasting between points adds up to a match that's quite a bit less exciting than the clock suggests.

The thing is that it's a rule, and, whatever your opinion, it either needs to be enforced or thrown out. Otherwise, you're leaving too much discretion for the umpires and raising fairness issues.

I think Fed is very much in the right to impugn this impunity.

This. Right here. I've heard too many arguments that guys like Nadal and Djoker take too long because that's how they did it when they were younger, that's how they find their rhythm. Screw that, their rhythm can go to hell it if means they keep wasting time point after point. Tennis is a mental game, and if they get thrown off by having to cut their OCD routine short by a whole 5 seconds, then that's their problem.

I've had my own issues with some stuff that Fed pulls (the 15 jacket, the bathroom break against Davy) but he's spot on here. Unless the players are sucking wind after a ferocious rally knock the time-wasting crap off. It gets old really, really fast.

reversef
09-03-2011, 02:19 AM
If it was a jab at Djokovic and Nadal then I'm glad Roger took it. For all their goody-goody talk in press conferences, neither have them have any real respect for their opponents as evidenced by their antics on court.

Of course, Federer is the only one who has respect for his opponents. Words of a *******.
The funny thing is that Djokovic has now joined Nadal in the club of the "cheaters with no respect for the game" club.
Andy, pay attention: don't start winning big tournaments while Federer (and his ***** at the same time) is still around or you will become a cheater and a completely unrespectful, phony, .... player.

DragonBlaze
09-03-2011, 02:24 AM
Of course, Federer is the only one who has respect for his opponents. Words of a *******.
The funny thing is that Djokovic has now joined Nadal in the club of the "cheaters with no respect for the game" club.
Andy, pay attention: don't start winning big tournaments while Federer (and his ***** at the same time) is still around or you will become a cheater and a completely unrespectful, phony, .... player.

What in the world are you talking about? You do realise that only the article mentioned Djokovic and Nadal and Fed made no mention of anyone.

cc0509
09-03-2011, 02:27 AM
true ........Its funny how these *********s make up stuff as per their convenience.

Funnily this time fed didn't even mention Nadal and they are up in arms because fed said time-wasting should not be there in general !

Federer could say something as innocuous as, "I went out for a nice walk today," and the nutso Nadal fans would be on their Federer is arrogant, bitter at the end of his career, wants to hurt Nadal diatribes! It really is comical.

At least he is a little more interesting in his interviews than Nadal's standard, "he is much better than me, and I will try my best, no?" (meanwhile his next opponent could be a club player on crutches and he would utter that same monologue :rolleyes:)

mandy01
09-03-2011, 02:29 AM
Of course, Federer is the only one who has respect for his opponents. Words of a *******.
The funny thing is that Djokovic has now joined Nadal in the club of the "cheaters with no respect for the game" club.
Andy, pay attention: don't start winning big tournaments while Federer (and his ***** at the same time) is still around or you will become a cheater and a completely unrespectful, phony, .... player.
WTH are you talking *******? Djokovic was always criticized for his antics, particularly his abuse of the MTOs and time taken between points.
And don't put words in my mouth and then say, 'words of a *******.' It's dishonest to say the least.

cc0509
09-03-2011, 02:30 AM
Of course, Federer is the only one who has respect for his opponents. Words of a *******.
The funny thing is that Djokovic has now joined Nadal in the club of the "cheaters with no respect for the game" club. Andy, pay attention: don't start winning big tournaments while Federer (and his ***** at the same time) is still around or you will become a cheater and a completely unrespectful, phony, .... player.

What are you talking about? It is the Nadal fans who are crying that Djokovic is a cheater now that he is winning, not Federer fans for the most part accusing him of everything from PED use to God knows what else.

zasr4325
09-03-2011, 02:46 AM
I try and ignore the garbage Veroniquem usually spews, but this one was just too inviting. First off, let's just remind ourselves of who even brought Rafa vs. Roger into the argument:

Federer is a pompous ***. And now he's a weary grumpy discombobulated pompous ***. All because he doesn't win titles anymore. And of course a narcissist to boot: because he likes playing fast, he wants to force a kind of time limit gestapo policy down our throats and no, I never change channels during a match unless the match is BORING and boy, has Fed become the ultimate specialist of that...
I suggest a game penalty for players starting to serve too soon before the opponent is ready. Obnoxious destabilizing tactic. Probably worthy of jail time. :???:
God, Fed is such a bitter tightass.

The biggest problem with this post, and many others from similar minded 'fans' (*****) is that they know nothing about the game of tennis. They listen to the junk from the commentators, lap up all the match stats, and then pronounce themselves experts because they can say Federer shouldn't have made an unforced error then, or Rafa should have been more attacking there. To be honest, as another poster said, if the time violations are there merely to shut the commies up, then at least that's one battle won.
However, there are times when the crap is rotting so bad it warrants a response. Having watched Nadal this year against Murray at Wimbledon, I honestly felt there was no issue with the time he was taking between points. It was clear he was slower than Murray, but it wasn't a huge deal. However, he did seem to take a lot of time between points when he was receiving serve, and Murray was having to wait numerous times for him to finish towelling off. It did get a little annoying to watch, especially as the pace of the game should be dictated by the server.
But, having watched the Djokervickh Tsonga match earlier, I personally felt Nole was much worse with his bouncing routine. Which, as everyone knows, gets longer and more drawn out when he's in a pressure situation. Even if the whole tour does it, it really doesn't make it right. The rule is there for a reason, and if there is a small minority abiding by the rule, then why shouldn't everyone else? The biggest problem with enforcing the rule, though, is that most umpires get scared after just giving a warning. The player gets annoyed because they feel it's not a big deal, the crowd just cheers, boos and bleats because something is happening, and the umpire gets worried about upsetting the player and of course doesn't reinforce the rule later on. A shot clock could be good, but why can't the umpires just do it themselves? Screw the popularity vote, they are there to enforce the rules, and whether it's a fine for Roger because he swore at the umpire, or a point penalty for Rafa or Nole because they're taking all of eternity to serve, then so be it.

sdont
09-03-2011, 03:24 AM
Because his tone is bitter. And embarrassingly grandiloquent/melodramatic: "it hurts me for tennis" :roll: Seriously? He talks like a Joan of Arc impersonator: he represents the Nation of Tennis and he's suffering martyrdom for its sake :???:
Pllllllllllllease. (Bring the fire already :twisted: - joke-)

Funny, seems to me like you are the one who's bitter.

Sentinel
09-03-2011, 03:32 AM
Federer is a pompous ***. And now he's a weary grumpy discombobulated pompous ***. All because he doesn't win titles anymore. And of course a narcissist to boot: because he likes playing fast, he wants to force a kind of time limit gestapo policy down our throats and no, I never change channels during a match unless the match is BORING and boy, has Fed become the ultimate specialist of that...
I suggest a game penalty for players starting to serve too soon before the opponent is ready. Obnoxious destabilizing tactic. Probably worthy of jail time. :???:
God, Fed is such a bitter tightass.
Jesus Christ ! Veronique picked up a new word today. Actually there are several as I try hard to read more than the first few words of her poost.

zasr4325
09-03-2011, 04:18 AM
Jesus Christ ! Veronique picked up a new word today. Actually there are several as I try hard to read more than the first few words of her poost.

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz12/zrigler/8a3bc6cb.jpg

tennis_pro
09-03-2011, 04:36 AM
I have never nagged any player around time issues. I prefer leaving it to the ump and focusing on having fun, and as far as drama and excitement are concerned, the longer the match, the better. (I also want players to have time to react and express emotions and not rush to the office like some robotic employees of a tennistic version of "metropolis". But of course that's exactly what Fed's personality is like, so I'm not surprised that would be his choice).

Lawl, talk about personality when your idol still walks in pampers made by uncle Toni.

edberg505
09-03-2011, 05:31 AM
Actually most of the tour does do it. The numbers have been posted during tournaments. I have facts. You have...well I don't know what you have.

The reason it's not "enforced" is because it's not a big deal and no one cared until Nadal started beating Federer. Then they looked for anything they could hang on the guy. So even though Mandy doth protest, what I said was actually right on point. If it were a REAL PROBLEM this would be talked about with EVERYONE, including Federer's buddy Wawrinka. How many Federer fans here are screaming bloody murder about Wawrinka?

It's a lot like the highway. Speed limits are generally 65 but everyone goes 75-80 because that's just the pace of the road. What I really wonder is if some of the goofballs complaining about this actually walk around during the day in a funk because "Nadal" goes over the limit by a few seconds on average.

:)

LOL, whuut? So, I guess I must be imagining the Montréal final where Agassi was getting incredibly peeved with the amount of time that Nadal was taking between points. Oh, wait, that's probably because Agassi had a losing head to head with Nadal at that time.

mcr619619
09-03-2011, 06:01 AM
Post #23: I already answered that. The time limit should be enforced by the ump with a certain degree of flexibility depending on circumstances. The rules are perfect the way they are. We don't need a dictator style narrow minded enforcement of whatever # of seconds at the detriment of quality of tennis played, all this to satisfy Mr Federer because disqualifying his opponents on technicalities are now his only chance of winning anything. Sore loser.

i thought that fed's 2nd round opponent was not disqualified, yet fed won...

LOL


and na-ah..Rafa takes too much time between serves, if you PLAY tennis, you probably complain about this too.. but i guess you don't..

KHSOLO
09-03-2011, 06:18 AM
Two things are need it in todays tennis:

1. A very loud time clock that just makes this loud sound when the time is over between points

2. A very loud grunting sensor that everytime someone grunts louder than the sensor it gets a penalty as well

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 06:31 AM
Just woke up. So who won this thread?

vive le beau jeu !
09-03-2011, 06:36 AM
No, it is only degree of flexibility where Nadal is concerned according to veronique. It if were Federer who was flexible and Nadal was quick in between points her degree of flexibility theory would be out the window in a flash! :wink:
please don't disrespect the golden bull and its devoted worshippers ! ;)
Goodluck explaining that point to 5 year olds and maniacal post menopausal females (and male), just about makes up the Nadal fanbase.LOL his tone is bitter? Nothing could be more bitter than what you wrote.
welcome to bitteriquem's world ! :p

Just introduce a bloody clock and there is no more bickering.
... and it would not be the 1st time there is a shot clock !
look at this noah-leconte R16 match at RG 1985: you can see the countdown before the serve at the back of the court.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmSx4XXzCBg
they should bring it back ! :)

Nb: strangely, it didn't seem to work for other matches later in the tournament... does anybody have any info about it ?

Manus Domini
09-03-2011, 06:45 AM
Federer is a pompous ***. And now he's a weary grumpy discombobulated pompous ***. All because he doesn't win titles anymore. And of course a narcissist to boot: because he likes playing fast, he wants to force a kind of time limit gestapo policy down our throats and no, I never change channels during a match unless the match is BORING and boy, has Fed become the ultimate specialist of that...
I suggest a game penalty for players starting to serve too soon before the opponent is ready. Obnoxious destabilizing tactic. Probably worthy of jail time. :???:
God, Fed is such a bitter tightass.

I presume from those two comments you have never, in your life, read the rules of tennis.

First off, the server has to serve within the time limit. If he doesn't, he gets a warning, then a point penalty, for time violation.

Second, a server has to wait for the receiver to be ready for 1 second prior to serving.

Third, the receiver plays to the pace of the server. So if the server plays ridiculously quickly, the receiver must play that way too, but can change it up when he serves (see the Ferrer-Blake match when Blake was serving at 3-4 in the second for an example)

cc0509
09-03-2011, 07:18 AM
please don't disrespect the golden bull and its devoted worshippers ! ;)

Oops, sorry, I forgot about "the Cult" at work! I hope I will not be punished for disrespecting the Nadal sycophants! :twisted: :D

MLB_MOB
09-03-2011, 07:23 AM
And by the way, it's clearly a jab at both Djoko and Rafa. Fed is doing his usual pre-potential crucial matches diffamatory mindgames. It never works but it never fails either at making him look like a fool.
I guess if he loses to Cilic, the excuse will be all ready: he took too much time between serves and it's killing me (and tennis of course since he believes he IS tennis :)) His delusions of grandeur are always a source of wonder.

I'm not the biggest Federer fan, however he is exactly right. The fact that it takes 30 sec in between points with some players is absolutely absurd. Especially if you have the momentum, and this is coming from a Djokovic fan.

To most of you this might not seem like a big deal, but trying putting yourself in a competitive situation like theirs. During college matches I freak that some people take half a minute in between points and there are no penalties, its not fair because 1) the matches take longer than they need to and 2) 80% if the time its blatantly meant to mess with the opponents head if the match is close

TheMagicianOfPrecision
09-03-2011, 07:30 AM
i thought that fed's 2nd round opponent was not disqualified, yet fed won...

LOL


and na-ah..Rafa takes too much time between serves, if you PLAY tennis, you probably complain about this too.. but i guess you don't..

No she doesnt. Her "knowledge" is what she has read in the Sports-magazines and heard from the ESPN commentators.

Tammo
09-03-2011, 07:52 AM
Lol, coming from Federer who if I remember correctly, took a fairly long "bathroom break" at the AO 2010 quarters against Davydenko.

Mustard
09-03-2011, 08:22 AM
20 seconds is just ridiculously quick. It should be doubled to 40 seconds.

rafan
09-03-2011, 08:23 AM
Then don't read it. If you don't like a person why read what he says in press conferences? If you don't like an author do you read a book of his/hers?
He is not bitter sounding at all. He is stating his opinion about a problem that has been well-known in tennis for years and has been written about time and time again. Federer did not make this stuff up.

Who said I did not LIKE Federer. Don't be so narrow minded. He has had a spectacular career and as a very amateur player myself I can respect these people all the more because I know how darn hard it is. However if I take longer to serve than other people, then that is because it is the way I can cope with the game of tennis personally. These 'people' he is talking about have won world wide respect and admiration for their game. They too are unique - as unique as he is. Therefore to accuse them of time wasting is to question their ability and infer they are in some way inferior to him. This is what annoys me and I feel it is the ranting of an old prima donna now past his prime and hitting out. I would say shut up Fed. You have badly mistimed your comments.

Mustard
09-03-2011, 08:26 AM
Of course, what all this fuss over the time limit is really about, is the anti-Nadal brigade who are annoyed that Rafa can't be knocked out of his rhythm on court. Tough luck, haters :twisted:

tennis_pro
09-03-2011, 08:33 AM
20 seconds is just ridiculously quick. It should be doubled to 40 seconds.

Yes and make the surfaces even slower. Great idea.

MLB_MOB
09-03-2011, 08:38 AM
Of course, what all this fuss over the time limit is really about, is the anti-Nadal brigade who are annoyed that Rafa can't be knocked out of his rhythm on court. Tough luck, haters :twisted:

Not really (like I said Djokovic is my fav and he breaks the rules all the time)...20 seconds is actually plenty of time and that is without ball boys. At the futures level players still are able to play quicker than 20 sec without ball boys. Whether its Rafa or some random guy on the futures circuit, it is ridiculous that more people are not penalized for breaking the rules.

West Coast Ace
09-03-2011, 08:48 AM
Funny, seems to me like you are the one who's bitter.Understatement of the Decade!

I presume from those two comments you have never, in your life, read the rules of tennis.I agree. I think V just heard there was some cute Spanish guy with muscles on TV playing tennis... and now we're stuck with her and her bile.

I don't think this is the biggest issue in the sport. But someone asked Fed for his opinion and he gave it. Funny that players get ripped for giving non-confrontational, canned answers. Then when one gives one that ruffles a few feathers, he's a bitter old lunatic.

NamRanger
09-03-2011, 08:50 AM
20 seconds is just ridiculously quick. It should be doubled to 40 seconds.



Of which Nadal routinely breaks still (40 seconds).

vllaznia
09-03-2011, 09:15 AM
20 seconds is just ridiculously quick. It should be doubled to 40 seconds.

Certainly watching Nadal it looks ridiculously quick, Imo 40 seconds it is ridicuolously long taking in mind that some Federer games take less than 60 seconds.

TMF
09-03-2011, 09:26 AM
Or, your girl Sharapova.

Be fair!

Sharapova and the WTA doesn't have problem with time wasting. They have their own issue and that is many players are grunting/shrieking. So don't bring up irrevalent WTA to cover up for your boy Nadal, who's the founder of "time wasting" in the 21th century.

Fed is trying to save tennis from getting totally out of control. Nadal led the way and other players follow, it's becoming an epidemic. This should be put to an end, and the first guy needed to stop is Nadal(the root of the cause). Any real tennis fans would preferred a fair competitive game. Frankly I would never give a player a full credit for winning a slam when he had to use tactic like time wasting to win. You have to win fair and square, simple as that.

SLD76
09-03-2011, 09:40 AM
Since when does Roddick routinely take longer than the time limit allows? The commentators always seem to make a point about how quickly he serves. One of the reasons I think many of those same announcers love Rafa is how much extra time he allows them to blather while he prepares to serve. For that reason alone, umpires should begin enforcing this rule with an iron fist.

Post of the week.

I LOL'D.

TMF
09-03-2011, 10:01 AM
LOL, whuut? So, I guess I must be imagining the Montréal final where Agassi was getting incredibly peeved with the amount of time that Nadal was taking between points. Oh, wait, that's probably because Agassi had a losing head to head with Nadal at that time.

Exactly. I remember Agassi raises his voice to the umpire from the distance by saying something like "are we playing at the server's pace?". Agassi had to pause/wait to serve since he had to wait for Nadal to be ready, which finally annoyed him to the point he had to take action. I wish every players feel free to speak up like Agassi.

billnepill
09-03-2011, 10:06 AM
20 seconds is just ridiculously quick. It should be doubled to 40 seconds.

a perfect example how subjectivity can cloud opinion coming from a man appreciative of tradition and history.

I guess next step would be to allow illegal coaching and injury breaks in important moments. Any other decision will be a jab at Nadal.

billnepill
09-03-2011, 10:10 AM
And yet he's not. That's all the difference between Rafa's and Fed's personality I guess. Rafa doesn't hallucinate he is Superman on a mission to saving tennis. Rafa is too down to earth for that kind of nonsense.

oh yes, Federer was advocating for 2-year rank system as well
and Federer is constantly complaining about doping checks

"Rafa is too down to earth" - don't worry, he is not shy when he protects ONLY his interests. I guess that means down to earth in this case.

cknobman
09-03-2011, 10:12 AM
Time wasting is annoying and should be stopped. I cant stand the 20 plus seconds of ball bouncing. Heck my doubles partner tried that on court in a match and it ****ed me off so bad i stopped him mid bounce and told him to cut it out.

SLD76
09-03-2011, 10:16 AM
Time wasting is annoying and should be stopped. I cant stand the 20 plus seconds of ball bouncing. Heck my doubles partner tried that on court in a match and it ****ed me off so bad i stopped him mid bounce and told him to cut it out.

Yeah, I think alot of these rafa defenders have never held a racket in their life.
If somebody tried that mess on me in HS they may have caught a passing shot to the face if they persisted even after a cease and desist request .

Just saying.

zagor
09-03-2011, 10:35 AM
One of the reasons I think many of those same announcers love Rafa is how much extra time he allows them to blather while he prepares to serve. For that reason alone, umpires should begin enforcing this rule with an iron fist.

LOOOOL! Problem is some of them like hearing their voice so much that they yap even during play so it wouldn't make such a difference in their case.

rommil
09-03-2011, 10:38 AM
And yet he's not. That's all the difference between Rafa's and Fed's personality I guess. Rafa doesn't hallucinate he is Superman on a mission to saving tennis. Rafa is too down to earth for that kind of nonsense.

Big difference in personality. Fed says it like it is, arrogant to some people with the self esteem and brains the size of a proton.

Rafa? I am a physically superior athlete(knees, foot, fingers, hair roots, hotplate 7th degree burns), I am mentally strong(MTOs, skips GS after big loss, goldfish), I am humble(Tourbillion watch, Armani shoots), I endorse Kia, an every man's car(Aston Martin), the other player played great no?( then a litany of ailments follow), I am not favorite of this tournament no because I no 100% ( then runs around like bunny rabbit).

Rafa as Superman?: :)

Rafa: Hold on little kitty, me bring you down from tree, no?

Kitty: Did you just pick your.....? Nevermind, I'll just jump.

Clarky21
09-03-2011, 10:59 AM
Big difference in personality. Fed says it like it is, arrogant to some people with the self esteem and brains the size of a proton.

Rafa? I am a physically superior athlete(knees, foot, fingers, hair roots, hotplate 7th degree burns), I am mentally strong(MTOs, skips GS after big loss, goldfish), I am humble(Tourbillion watch, Armani shoots), I endorse Kia, an every man's car(Aston Martin), the other player played great no?( then a litany of ailments follow), I am not favorite of this tournament no because I no 100% ( then runs around like bunny rabbit).

Rafa as Superman?: :)

Rafa: Hold on little kitty, me bring you down from tree, no?

Kitty: Did you just pick your.....? Nevermind, I'll just jump.


:lol:

10char

Mustard
09-03-2011, 11:24 AM
a perfect example how subjectivity can cloud opinion coming from a man appreciative of tradition and history.

Right back at you. 20 seconds is too fast, is it 15 or 10 seconds next?

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 11:27 AM
Right back at you. 20 seconds is too fast, is it 15 or 10 seconds next?

How about 2 minutes? Happy with that?

Mustard
09-03-2011, 11:42 AM
How about 2 minutes? Happy with that?

No. That's too long.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-03-2011, 11:43 AM
No. That's too long.

So why don't you ask Santa Claus for what you feel is the ideal time?

beeveewee
09-03-2011, 12:03 PM
Seems like the point Fed was making was that it makes for bad TV. Seems plain to me. He's right of course, it's boring. I suffer through it because I'm a hard core tennis fan. Most people aren't. Tennis is not boring but it can sure look that way to the public.

It is sad for tennis because boring is bad for tennis. Same problem faced by major league baseball.

Cup8489
09-03-2011, 12:49 PM
(Don't know why some of you complain about Nadal. Cilic is the one getting the time violation at this here US Open)

Pascal Maria seems the only umpire who's willing to call people out on it. And he's done it to nadal loads of times.. just have to wait and see if Maria umps a Nadal match.. then he will be called.

You shouldn't be allowed to use that avatar for yourself, you disgrace the bulls by doing so.

RF_fan
09-03-2011, 12:49 PM
Cilic got time warning at the end of 3rd set and then double faulted. It didn't seem like he was taking too long, maybe he did on that 1 point but it's not like he was wasting time on every point.

SLD76
09-03-2011, 01:37 PM
Cilic got time warning at the end of 3rd set and then double faulted. It didn't seem like he was taking too long, maybe he did on that 1 point but it's not like he was wasting time on every point.

Cilic had stalled on a crucial point the last service game facing a break point.
I remember remarking to a friend that it seemed like it took him a million years to serve that point.

I wasnt suprised he got the time violation. Its obvious he was stalling on crucial points when he served normally any other point. Obvious stalling at that.

Hood_Man
09-03-2011, 01:52 PM
The problem is that it isn't enforced all the time, which makes it very unfair when some players can get away with it consistently and then someone else (like Cilic today) gets called out on it at an important moment.

It's like the Hawkeye rule, they're supposed to challenge immediately, not casually stroll toward the net, take a long glaring look, look toward their box to their coach, and then after 10-15 seconds raise a finger to challenge.

Either enforce it or get rid of it. Make it 30-40 seconds between points to account for the longer points we see these days, but actually enforce it.

FedExpress 333
09-03-2011, 02:17 PM
Exactly. Make it longer if you have to, just make it happen! What if the shot clock in the NBA was not enforced? Could you watch that?!?!

Sid_Vicious
09-03-2011, 03:32 PM
Lol, coming from Federer who if I remember correctly, took a fairly long "bathroom break" at the AO 2010 quarters against Davydenko.

LOL! Another ignorant comment by you. That was a very short bathroom break that Federer took. A long bathroom break would be the one Roddick took against Hewitt in the AO 05 SFs.

West Coast Ace
09-03-2011, 05:09 PM
Lol, coming from Federer who if I remember correctly, took a fairly long "bathroom break" at the AO 2010 quarters against Davydenko.Oh, brother! All Fed did was 'not walk my fastest' back to the court. Zero comparison.

(I'm a better free-throw shooter than Derrick Rose actually)Sure you are... (rolls eyes)

The problem is that it isn't enforced all the time, which makes it very unfair...True. But still a cop out. The speeding laws are the same - but sometime you get caught, most you don't. Over here, that excuse isn't going to get you out of a ticket.

TheTruth
09-03-2011, 06:28 PM
Since when does Roddick routinely take longer than the time limit allows? The commentators always seem to make a point about how quickly he serves. One of the reasons I think many of those same announcers love Rafa is how much extra time he allows them to blather while he prepares to serve. For that reason alone, umpires should begin enforcing this rule with an iron fist.

Now to the poster who made an apt comparison with traffic enforcement. While it is true Fed comes off as your mother driving 5 mph below the speed limit in the slow lane and many others are going 5-10 mph over with regularity as busy cops shrug, Nadal — with the focus given to routines and water bottle placement and the adjustment of unmentionables — is like the red convertible speeding at 95 past other cars, daring officers to pull him over and laughing uproariously when they won't, confident that the next time he can go 100 mph. (And Djokovic, for his part, is like a 20-year-old in a silver Lamborghini.)

I'm not sure how, as certain posters suggest, that time violations add to the drama. Zvonareva taking a losing racquet to task? Indeed. Roddick berating an obstinate umpire? Sure. Perhaps its my critical disposition, but I just can't find high theater in time-wasting maneuvers. "Gee, I wonder if Novak will bounce the ball 12 times or 16?" you might find yourself asking. I say get on with it and show us some tennis. If it's a matter of needing recuperation time after too many extended rallies, perhaps that's a proper incentive for players to shorten a point or two. Alas, the combination of dull rallies and time-wasting between points adds up to a match that's quite a bit less exciting than the clock suggests.

The thing is that it's a rule, and, whatever your opinion, it either needs to be enforced or thrown out. Otherwise, you're leaving too much discretion for the umpires and raising fairness issues.

I think Fed is very much in the right to impugn this impunity.

Everyone doesn't do the exact same things, but I put Roddick in there because he's notorious for "time-wasting" when he's losing, by stopping the entire match to argue with the umpire.

He is a quick server, but in practically every match that's tight, or he loses, Roddick feigns disgust with the umpire and stands with his hands on his hips arguing, disrupting the flow of the match, and his opponent.

I think the ATP and ITF should make and enforce the rules, not players and commentators. And, as with anything else these things should be discussed amongst those with the power to change things, not the press or fans.

Personally, I see no reason for people to say things in their presser that has the potential to create ill will. IMO, that's the motivation behind Federer's comments.

He's more than allowed to say those things, but he also opens himself up to criticism, and people are allowed to say how they feel about it.

TheTruth
09-03-2011, 06:31 PM
That's a google translation, oh wise lady. I don't know French, but I'd guess the proper translation would sound "better", for you at least... Reminds me, I wish you and TheTruth would always post in distorted English, so I could also smile a little while sighing each and every time.

As for Federer, I sympathize with him especially from a "watching a tennis match" point of view. For instance; Nadal and Djokovic have almost always exciting matches between them, yet there is always a point where I find myself almost falling a sleep, this actually happened in their Miami or IW match this year... You may disagree, but if you suggest that calling out on long intervals between points and serves is "grandiloquent"... well, then you certainly are grandiloquent.

I don't think Federer is taking a jab at Djokovic or Nadal here though, they are not the only players who does it anyway. Federer almost always talks about how the game today has a lot of fair play, especially at the top; I'd think post #96 actually gives a more proper insight of Federer's (the post which, of course, Veroniquem "I Vomit FedHate Everyday" and "I Agree, You Are A Great Poster" TheTruth probably ignored).

And others do think he's taking a jab. There's really not a problem here, people have a right to think otherwise.

Disagreeing without making it personal :).

Crisstti
09-03-2011, 06:32 PM
First, the article posted was Google translated, so I don’t think anything can said about the way Federer supposedly spoke there. Second, Nadal was brought into the discussion because absurdly biased article mentioned him and because some Fed fans pathetically go on about how Nadal “cheats” because he takes some more time to serve… not to mention the title of this trhead.

The problem is that it isn't enforced all the time, which makes it very unfair when some players can get away with it consistently and then someone else (like Cilic today) gets called out on it at an important moment.

It's like the Hawkeye rule, they're supposed to challenge immediately, not casually stroll toward the net, take a long glaring look, look toward their box to their coach, and then after 10-15 seconds raise a finger to challenge.

Either enforce it or get rid of it. Make it 30-40 seconds between points to account for the longer points we see these days, but actually enforce it.

This. It makes players insecure as to what the rule REALLY is (not just on paper). It should be around 30 or 40 seconds and enforced with a clock (since players shouldn’t have to be worried about counting the seconds).
Or just leave it as it is. Despite what some say, it’s not a big deal.

The comparison with speeding doesn’t make sense, since it’s not a problem of players not “getting caught”. It’s a judgment call the umpires make to not call them for it.

TheTruth
09-03-2011, 06:40 PM
Sharapova and the WTA doesn't have problem with time wasting. They have their own issue and that is many players are grunting/shrieking. So don't bring up irrevalent WTA to cover up for your boy Nadal, who's the founder of "time wasting" in the 21th century.

Fed is trying to save tennis from getting totally out of control. Nadal led the way and other players follow, it's becoming an epidemic. This should be put to an end, and the first guy needed to stop is Nadal(the root of the cause). Any real tennis fans would preferred a fair competitive game. Frankly I would never give a player a full credit for winning a slam when he had to use tactic like time wasting to win. You have to win fair and square, simple as that.

So it's cheating on the ATP, but not the WTA? OK.

The bolded part is hilarious!

Crisstti
09-03-2011, 06:55 PM
Thanks to the poster who posted what Federer said in the press conference. Wonder if the article in French came from that, because it looks very different…

If he knows there's a limited time frame between point but still ignore it by keep taking more time is cheating. Nadal certainly knows what he's doing but still abuse it b/c the umpire are too afraid to call it.


No, that’s not cheating. That’s breaking a rule and it’s not the same.

To cheat: act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage.
deprive of something by deceitful or unfair means

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/cheat

(I know you're going to say that Nadal is acting in a dishonest way in order to gain an adventage, and that's another discussion. My point here is that to cheat is not simply to break a rule)

And the idea that umpires are afraid of Nadal is incredibly absurd. What is it with some people thinking that everyone is afraid of him?. :rolleyes:

What if my rhythm is to take 2 minutes between each point, is that ok, should it be respected?

No, but no one takes that long, so what’s your point?.

That's what great about the sport....it has to be tough, it has to be challenging. Players must be tested, have pressure, overcome all obstacles.

Could you imagine the NBA remove the 24 seconds violation? It would be boring. Just like Fed say it's boring if tennis don't have time limitation.

Tennis IS tough and challenging whether a player takes 10 seconds to serve or 40.
Also, I don’t see Fed saying anything about tennis being boring because some players take longer to serve.

I don’t know much about basketball at all, sorry.

Take it this way. If a Rafa fan like me, who follows every bit of news possible on him, has bought (and read his autobio), and who even argues with others on internet forums on why Rafa's MTOs are not fake yada yada yada can get annoyed/irritated by his excessive-toweling, time-taking between points, then imagine (okay, the irritation is not that exaggerated as it looks, but it stills irritates me quite a bit sometimes, especially during non-critical times in a match) what effect it will have on passive followers of the game, or those who are not Nadal fans -- it easily gets magnified. And that IS detrimental towards the game, in general.

Your part on "In reality is not enforced" .... that is what Federer is saying ... that this rule SHOULD be enforced. And I agree with this.

And as a fellow Nadal fan, there is no need to take offense to it. It is NOT cheating ('coz he is arguing against the decision of the umpire, the umpire HAS to enforce it, and when umpire does give him a warning, he does speeds up). Nadal is a human, and he is not perfect. Similarly, federer is imperfect too. But Nadal is still one of my favorite players ever.

Oh, no offense taken :). Yes, Federer is saying it should be enforced. I disagree, unless the time allowed is changed.

Crisstti
09-03-2011, 07:16 PM
First of all it is not most of the tour and secondly, even if it were, who cares? A rule is a rule and it should be enforced. The problem is the umps don't enforce it and they have let the situation get too far just as they have with the grunting and shrieking done by so many players such as Azarenka, Sharapova, Nadal and Ferrer for example. Something should have been done about that a long time ago.

They probably don’t enforce them because they want to let the players decide the outcome of a match. Just how lame it would be that a match would be decided by penalties handed by the umpires?. The ITF must surely consider that that would be more damaging to the sport than whatever damage might come from the time players take between points or the noise some players make when playing.

I think a lot of people are lacking some empathy in looking at this. Fed actually says the rule should NOT be enforced after a long rally (something which the people claiming that “a rule is a rule and must always be enforced seem to have missed), because he needs time to rest after it. Well, I would say Rafa needs time to do his routine before he serves…

Actually most of the tour does do it. The numbers have been posted during tournaments. I have facts. You have...well I don't know what you have.

The reason it's not "enforced" is because it's not a big deal and no one cared until Nadal started beating Federer. Then they looked for anything they could hang on the guy. So even though Mandy doth protest, what I said was actually right on point. If it were a REAL PROBLEM this would be talked about with EVERYONE, including Federer's buddy Wawrinka. How many Federer fans here are screaming bloody murder about Wawrinka?

It's a lot like the highway. Speed limits are generally 65 but everyone goes 75-80 because that's just the pace of the road. What I really wonder is if some of the goofballs complaining about this actually walk around during the day in a funk because "Nadal" goes over the limit by a few seconds on average.

:)

Exactly 

This is simply a fabricated piece of garbage. Players used to complain about Nadal's time-wasting in his initial years on tour and that time he wasn't even a big force especially outside clay. So you might as well keep this nonsense to those fools who will buy it.

Have you seen Rafa in the first match he and Fed played?. Nadal didn’t take long between points.

:rolleyes:

It's illegal AND morally reprehensible to incorporate and embed bad-sportsmanship into your "rhythm".

Except that your imagining that bad sportsmanship.

I wish you had done that 10 years ago b/c I don't think Nadal would have 10 slams today if the clock system was enforced.:)

I hope you notice how delusional you sound… but I guess you don’t.

Manus Domini
09-03-2011, 07:21 PM
Right back at you. 20 seconds is too fast, is it 15 or 10 seconds next?

20 seconds isn't fast at all. It's actually a fair amount of time.

TMF
09-03-2011, 07:22 PM
So it's cheating on the ATP, but not the WTA? OK.

The bolded part is hilarious!

Do you hear any complaint in the WTA? NO
Do you hear it in the ATP? YES

So leave the WTA out.


Fed is trying to do what's best for the players and the sport. I wouldn't call it hilarious, but a great leader.

Manus Domini
09-03-2011, 07:25 PM
Tennis IS tough and challenging whether a player takes 10 seconds to serve or 40.

From the majority of Americans' opinions, you'd think it's a sissy sport. I've heard stuff like "Players get so much time to relax after a point, no matter how short it is! What whimps!"

Yes, Federer is saying it should be enforced. I disagree, unless the time allowed is changed.


Disagree as much as you want, the rules are made to be followed.

SoBad
09-03-2011, 07:28 PM
Why the psychotic hysteria from the trolls so early on? It's not like Federer has been booted yet or facing Nadal.:lol:

TheTruth
09-03-2011, 07:37 PM
Do you hear any complaint in the WTA? NO
Do you hear it in the ATP? YES

So leave the WTA out.


Fed is trying to do what's best for the players and the sport. I wouldn't call it hilarious, but a great leader.

Sorry. I thought cheating was cheating. I didn't put it down to gender.

TMF
09-03-2011, 07:39 PM
Tennis IS tough and challenging whether a player takes 10 seconds to serve or 40.
Also, I don’t see Fed saying anything about tennis being boring because some players take longer to serve.
Players have to adapt to server. For example, if Agassi wants to pace his serve game at around 10 seconds, Nadal must keep up. Nadal cannot rob Agassi time by dictating his own terms, which disrupt Agassi's serve rhythm.

Nadal can use up his 25 sec on his serve and his apponent cannot complain about it. But once he start stretching over 40 sec to over 1 minutes, there's a problem. And the receiver has a right to fight for his right. The umpire should intervene but unfortunately, they are too afraid to speak up.




I don’t know much about basketball at all, sorry.

That's the problem with some of you fans. If you watch NBA(has 24 sec clock) or the NFL(has 30 sec clock), you will appreciate the sport much, much more.

Manus Domini
09-03-2011, 07:42 PM
Players have to adapt to server. For example, if Agassi wants to pace his serve game at around 10 seconds, Nadal must keep up. Nadal cannot rob Agassi time by dictating his own terms, which disrupt Agassi's serve rhythm.

Nadal can use up his 25 sec on his serve and his apponent cannot complain about it. But once he start stretching over 40 sec to over 1 minutes, there's a problem. And the receiver has a right to fight for his right. The umpire should intervene but unfortunately, they are too afraid to speak up.

Did you see the Ferrer v. Blake match? Classic example of that kinda thing right there.

I don't see the problem with the receiver having to go at the pace of the server, so long as the serving pace isn't breaking any rules...

zapvor
09-03-2011, 07:46 PM
you do see federer never taking much time between points. ever

JustBob
09-03-2011, 07:53 PM
Every player wants to impose his own rhythm on the opposing player. That's part of the "mind games" aimed at gaining a competitive edge. That's fine as long as it's done within the rules. When a player constantly abuses/breaks a rule then it's cheating, or at least unsportsmanlike. And that should be penalized. The rule exists, enforce it.

martini1
09-03-2011, 08:06 PM
Do you hear any complaint in the WTA? NO
Do you hear it in the ATP? YES

So leave the WTA out.


Fed is trying to do what's best for the players and the sport. I wouldn't call it hilarious, but a great leader.

LOL when everybody is doing that in the WTA, who would complain?

But this has been discussed before. The shot clock is not really gonna work.

Miso
09-03-2011, 08:09 PM
Just take the play clock from NBA/NFL. After a point, the play clock starts. Clock hits 0 before you serve, loss of point. (ie: 0-15)

zapvor
09-03-2011, 08:13 PM
no tennis is not the same as nba or nfl

Miso
09-03-2011, 08:32 PM
no tennis is not the same as nba or nfl

Sure, the sports aren't the same. Could you imagine a NBA game with no shot clock?

or Peyton Manning with no play clock?

It would be like watching Djokovic bounce a ball 100x.

Crisstti
09-03-2011, 08:35 PM
From the majority of Americans' opinions, you'd think it's a sissy sport. I've heard stuff like "Players get so much time to relax after a point, no matter how short it is! What whimps!"

Yeah well, I guess I don't think tennis should work according to how people who don't even like the sport think.

Aparently "Americans" think football is a "sissy" sport too.

Disagree as much as you want, the rules are made to be followed.

It seems most umpires and the ITF disagree too. Though luck.

And rules are not sacred. Is it wrong to cross a street when the light's red if no car is coming?. And wasn't there some law in England until recently taht forbid to dance on Sundays or something like that?.

Players have to adapt to server. For example, if Agassi wants to pace his serve game at around 10 seconds, Nadal must keep up. Nadal cannot rob Agassi time by dictating his own terms, which disrupt Agassi's serve rhythm.

Nadal can use up his 25 sec on his serve and his apponent cannot complain about it. But once he start stretching over 40 sec to over 1 minutes, there's a problem. And the receiver has a right to fight for his right. The umpire should intervene but unfortunately, they are too afraid to speak up.

They don't want to ruin the game.

I agree the server has a right to dicatate the rhythm of play, whithin certain reasonable limits.

Mahboob Khan
09-03-2011, 08:38 PM
Ha, ha, I clearly see a "verbal tennis match (vtm)" here. On the question of slower courts, Nadal said, "it all boils down as to how one feels on a particular day to notice the difference, if any"; in other words, he did not agree with Roger Federer who suggested that the courts were slower (implying the slower courts will favor Nadal). In that, there was also a hidden/mental statement from Roger, "look guys, the courts are slower, they play like clay, and this beast from Spain or Serbia will win".

About time wasting: Roger Federer clearly wants that his two main rivals Nadal and Djokovic, guilty of time wasting, should be punished at least on crucial match turning points, so that he gets that crucial break of serve.

Sid_Vicious
09-03-2011, 08:42 PM
From the majority of Americans' opinions, you'd think it's a sissy sport. I've heard stuff like "Players get so much time to relax after a point, no matter how short it is! What whimps!"



Disagree as much as you want, the rules are made to be followed.

I disagree. Majority of Americans don't really give a crap about breaks in between athletics. If they did, (American) Football would not be the most watched sport in the country. In American Football, the players get a sizeable break in-between plays to grab water, talk to the coach, and slap each others asses.

On the other hand, no one really cares about Soccer in this country even though it involves 90 plus minutes of continuous play.

MichaelNadal
09-03-2011, 09:01 PM
I disagree. Majority of Americans don't really give a crap about breaks in between athletics. If they did, (American) Football would not be the most watched sport in the country. In American Football, the players get a sizeable break in-between plays to grab water, talk to the coach, and slap each others asses.

On the other hand, no one really cares about Soccer in this country even though it involves 90 plus minutes of continuous play.

You make a very good point there sir.

Ducker
09-03-2011, 09:19 PM
The only thing i dont like about them taking so long is it takes a little bit away from the guys who are in better shape. The guy who can play without a break at all should get advantage for that. These tall one trick ponies with massive serves like john isner would be at a slight disadvantage.

cc0509
09-03-2011, 09:52 PM
Who said I did not LIKE Federer. Don't be so narrow minded. He has had a spectacular career and as a very amateur player myself I can respect these people all the more because I know how darn hard it is. However if I take longer to serve than other people, then that is because it is the way I can cope with the game of tennis personally. These 'people' he is talking about have won world wide respect and admiration for their game. They too are unique - as unique as he is. Therefore to accuse them of time wasting is to question their ability and infer they are in some way inferior to him. This is what annoys me and I feel it is the ranting of an old prima donna now past his prime and hitting out. I would say shut up Fed. You have badly mistimed your comments.

First of all, Federer did not accuse anybody directly(only Fed haters think that) and did not mention any names. He was talking in general and he has a good point.
Secondly, who cares how a player "copes" with tennis personally. They should not be able to take more time in between serves. A rule is a rule! You can't just go out and play a sport and make up your own rules, but that is unfortunately what has been allowed to happen for the most part. Nobody is enforcing the rules. Today during the Clilic/Federer match the ump gave Cilic a warning and he was absolutely right. This should be done all of the time.
They need to come up with a solution to this problem and enforce the time limit. Period, end of story. (and I say this as somebody who is not bothered personally by the time players take in between serves.)

cc0509
09-03-2011, 09:55 PM
a perfect example how subjectivity can cloud opinion coming from a man appreciative of tradition and history.

I guess next step would be to allow illegal coaching and injury breaks in important moments. Any other decision will be a jab at Nadal.

How about allowing PED use right on the court. That will be the next step! :twisted:

cc0509
09-03-2011, 10:00 PM
The problem is that it isn't enforced all the time, which makes it very unfair when some players can get away with it consistently and then someone else (like Cilic today) gets called out on it at an important moment.

It's like the Hawkeye rule, they're supposed to challenge immediately, not casually stroll toward the net, take a long glaring look, look toward their box to their coach, and then after 10-15 seconds raise a finger to challenge.

Either enforce it or get rid of it. Make it 30-40 seconds between points to account for the longer points we see these days, but actually enforce it.

That is exactly right. It is arbitrary rule enforcing. Not right at all. If you have a rule and players violate it they need to be penalized.

FedExpress 333
09-03-2011, 10:17 PM
Yeah well, I guess I don't think tennis should work according to how people who don't even like the sport think.

Aparently "Americans" think football is a "sissy" sport too.



It seems most umpires and the ITF disagree too. Though luck.
And rules are not sacred. Is it wrong to cross a street when the light's red if no car is coming?. And wasn't there some law in England until recently taht forbid to dance on Sundays or something like that?.



They don't want to ruin the game.

I agree the server has a right to dicatate the rhythm of play, whithin certain reasonable limits.

So you are saying that if the umpires are not enforcing the rule, it should not be enforced at all?

If you had a corrupt police force who takes money from criminals and does not jail tham, and lets them murder people and break the law, would that mean that you would think "well, the police are not enforcing it, so what is the point of the rule?

Ad if you want to quote someone, just quote the whole thing. Stop answering things out of context.

Ralph
09-03-2011, 10:47 PM
It is only that in your own little world along with the authour of the article. Federer makes no mention of those two at all, actually READ post no. 96 which is his ACTUAL quote. The original article was also a google translation, so who knows how accurate his supposed quotes in there are.

Some of you people's reading comprehension is so poor it's amazing. It's like when somebody made an a thread about an article in which Nadal was quoted as saying "I find Pete's game boring. It's not real tennis. I think viewers find it more exciting these days".

Ofcourse many trolls had the EXACT same response you did, about Nadal being up himself, how DARE he make such a generalising statement etc etc.
Turned out the statements had been twisted such as here.

The funniest thing will be my post is going to get completely ignored and there will be several pages of pointless arguments.

Not ignored here, a very good post.

Jesus Christ ! Veronique picked up a new word today. Actually there are several as I try hard to read more than the first few words of her poost.

LOL :)

Understatement of the Decade!

I agree. I think V just heard there was some cute Spanish guy with muscles on TV playing tennis... and now we're stuck with her and her bile.

Lovin' it ;)


Big difference in personality. Fed says it like it is, arrogant to some people with the self esteem and brains the size of a proton.

Rafa? I am a physically superior athlete(knees, foot, fingers, hair roots, hotplate 7th degree burns), I am mentally strong(MTOs, skips GS after big loss, goldfish), I am humble(Tourbillion watch, Armani shoots), I endorse Kia, an every man's car(Aston Martin), the other player played great no?( then a litany of ailments follow), I am not favorite of this tournament no because I no 100% ( then runs around like bunny rabbit).

Rafa as Superman?: :)

Rafa: Hold on little kitty, me bring you down from tree, no?

Kitty: Did you just pick your.....? Nevermind, I'll just jump.

Wonderful - had me cracking up.

For all of you attacking Federer for his 'view', can any of you, yes ANY of you, state where he singles out Ralph or Novak?

cc0509
09-03-2011, 10:51 PM
Not ignored here, a very good post.



LOL :)



Lovin' it ;)




Wonderful - had me cracking up.

For all of you attacking Federer for his 'view', can any of you, yes ANY of you, state where he singles out Ralph or Novak?

Who needs to prove anything concrete when you are a nutty *******? Reason has nothing to do with it, it is all what their minds conjure up! ;)

DragonBlaze
09-03-2011, 10:56 PM
Not ignored here, a very good post.

For all of you attacking Federer for his 'view', can any of you, yes ANY of you, state where he singles out Ralph or Novak?

Haha thanks Ralph, I was fairly annoyed that as predicted all sensible posts on the topic were being ignored.

Ofcourse, you are exactly right, no where did Federer even hint at Nadal or Djokovic, this is just a case of people seeing what they WANT to see.

That, or Federer comments are a bit too close to the truth and that stings our expert TTW residents a bit :)

Laver777
09-03-2011, 10:59 PM
i cant stand watching djoker purely because of his ridiculous ball bouncing. you dont need to bounce the ball. 2-3 max is all that is need to maybe compose yourself a bit and think where youre serving.

Ralph
09-03-2011, 11:00 PM
Who needs to prove anything concrete when you are a nutty *******? Reason has nothing to do with it, it is all what their minds conjure up! ;)

They aren't all nutty cc0509, but a few of them should wear that title with honour. :)

Taking in to consideration the history of the sport, has anyone stopped to think why this topic is being discussed by journalist/interviewers/media a lot more over the last few years?

This alone signifies much in my opinion.

Ralph
09-03-2011, 11:03 PM
Haha thanks Ralph, I was fairly annoyed that as predicted all sensible posts on the topic were being ignored.

Ofcourse, you are exactly right, no where did Federer even hint at Nadal or Djokovic, this is just a case of people seeing what they WANT to see.

That, or Federer comments are a bit too close to the truth and that stings our expert TTW residents a bit :)

And there in lies part of the problem, in my opinion. As a good friend once said to me; "...in pretty much all aspects of life or society, if a system is open to abuse, it will be abused."

rommil
09-03-2011, 11:10 PM
Now that the Nadturds have considered this an attack to their demigod, let's talk about it. Rafa very well knows the rules, is a member of the ATP Player Council, he has been warned about it numerous times, he still keeps doing it and GETS mad when he gets called on it.

cc0509
09-03-2011, 11:12 PM
They aren't all nutty cc0509, but a few of them should wear that title with honour. :)

Taking in to consideration the history of the sport, has anyone stopped to think why this topic is being discussed by journalist/interviewers/media a lot more over the last few years?

This alone signifies much in my opinion.

You are right. They are NOT all nutty and I never meant to say they were all nutty, but there are about 5 or 6 of them that are real prizes!

Why would anybody take into consideration what the media has been writing about for years? That would be too reasonable for many of those nutty Nads. To them they will say the media and commentators are in some kind of conspiracy. You hear them say that all of the time with the Nadal MTO/injury issue. LOL! Impossible to reason with "the flock of extreme worshippers!"

cc0509
09-03-2011, 11:14 PM
Now that the Nadturds have considered this an attack to their demigod, let's talk about it. Rafa very well knows the rules, is a member of the ATP Player Council, he has been warned about it numerous times, he still keeps doing it and GETS mad when he gets called on it.

But it is not his fault at all. It is not up to him to enforce the rules. He must be laughing his head off that they don't enforce them with him. He knows he will get away with it most of the time.

TopFH
09-03-2011, 11:16 PM
First of all, Federer did not accuse anybody directly(only Fed haters think that) and did not mention any names. He was talking in general and he has a good point.
Secondly, who cares how a player "copes" with tennis personally. They should not be able to take more time in between serves. A rule is a rule! You can't just go out and play a sport and make up your own rules, but that is unfortunately what has been allowed to happen for the most part. Nobody is enforcing the rules. Today during the Clilic/Federer match the ump gave Cilic a warning and he was absolutely right. This should be done all of the time.
They need to come up with a solution to this problem and enforce the time limit. Period, end of story. (and I say this as somebody who is not bothered personally by the time players take in between serves.)

You're right, he never said a name.

Bartelby
09-03-2011, 11:39 PM
It's not a question of Nadal or of cheating, time wasting is boring for the spectator so the referee should time them and deduct a point if the time limit is exceeded.

It will happen once or twice a game by accident if it is enforced and we'll never have a problem again.

TopFH
09-04-2011, 12:13 AM
Look what happened to Cilic when he got called.

Magnus
09-04-2011, 12:41 AM
Go Roger! 100% correct and its about time they do something about it. The commentators in Eurosport talked about it in the Nadal/Mahut match, when Mahut had a chance early in the 2nd on Nadal's serve, and Nadal took his sweet, sweet time to serve. Commentators said Nadal usually does this one under pressure.

15_ounce
09-04-2011, 04:07 AM
Look what happened to Cilic when he got called.

I played my recording and used stopwatch, Cilic took about 30 sec or more during that time between points when he got warned.



Anyway, all time wasters are corruptor. They deserve to lose points and get fined.

Manus Domini
09-04-2011, 06:14 AM
Yeah well, I guess I don't think tennis should work according to how people who don't even like the sport think.

I'm just saying, since it seems to me that Roger's quote was in part directed towards tennis' falling popularity...

And rules are not sacred. Is it wrong to cross a street when the light's red if no car is coming?. And wasn't there some law in England until recently taht forbid to dance on Sundays or something like that?.

Rules=/=Laws, first off.

Secondly, laws are made to be followed. Sure, there are some stupid ones. But there are reasons for them.

They don't want to ruin the game.

Err, it's not ruining the game. It's making it less boring. I don't want to waste a minute of my time while someone is preparing to serve.

I agree the server has a right to dicatate the rhythm of play, whithin certain reasonable limits.

Exactly, within the legal constraints.

I disagree. Majority of Americans don't really give a crap about breaks in between athletics. If they did, (American) Football would not be the most watched sport in the country. In American Football, the players get a sizeable break in-between plays to grab water, talk to the coach, and slap each others asses.

On the other hand, no one really cares about Soccer in this country even though it involves 90 plus minutes of continuous play.

That being said, a lotta kids I know think tennis is just walking in between shots. Trust me, a good amount of people my age that don't play think it's a pretty whimpy sport.

Btw, I dunno where you live, but here soccer is more important than basketball and football combined.

15_ounce
09-04-2011, 08:04 PM
Rafael took 42 seconds between points when he faced a breakpoint against David Nalbandian.....


....then he double faulted....



he usually takes about 30 ++ seconds or so between points... he should've lost a lot of points there.... and money as well.

Fate Archer
09-04-2011, 09:16 PM
Today Pascal Maria warned Nadal on a break point for going over time on serve... kudos to him for enforcing the rule and hopefully all the other umpires will follow suit.

Now I wanna see who will have the cojones to apply a point penalty if it happens again.

Evan77
09-04-2011, 11:00 PM
who gives a ***** what Fed thinks? He is an arrogant guy. :twisted:. I hate Roger, lol.

15_ounce
09-05-2011, 06:54 AM
who gives a ***** what Fed thinks? He is an arrogant guy. :twisted:. I hate Roger, lol.

The time wasters are the arrogant pr!cks... they're so arrogant they disobey tennis rules all the time and expect to get away with it just because they're spoiled top players.

jerriy
09-05-2011, 08:18 AM
Players have to adapt to server. For example, if Agassi wants to pace his serve game at around 10 seconds, Nadal must keep up. Nadal cannot rob Agassi time by dictating his own terms, which disrupt Agassi's serve rhythm. The most important post in this thread. I've tried to address this point in my posts but you put it in far better words.

Veronique is a bigoted supremacist who believes that her Nadal deserves to have unique privileges. Some kind of Allah given right to impose his rhythm on his opponent not just half the time (when he is serving) but ALL the time, which means even when his opponent is serving. That is clear and unambiguous supremacism.

It all comes down to supremacy and the belief that you have superior right to cheat and rob your opponent of equal opportunity. Instead of BOTH players having equal opportunity to dictate rhythm, Vernique & co are convinced that one player should have a privilege to exclusively impose his rhythm on the other while the other player should be deprived and robbed of his right to do the same in equal measure.

Crisstti
09-06-2011, 05:30 PM
So you are saying that if the umpires are not enforcing the rule, it should not be enforced at all?

I'm saying that the time allowed is too short, and the lack of enforcement of such rule showes that the ITF and most umpires think the same thing. Therefore they seem to consider it unfair or at least counterproductive (as far as it would lead to potencially important points being decided over something like that) to enforce it.

If you had a corrupt police force who takes money from criminals and does not jail tham, and lets them murder people and break the law, would that mean that you would think "well, the police are not enforcing it, so what is the point of the rule?

Ad if you want to quote someone, just quote the whole thing. Stop answering things out of context.

I'm saying that simply because a rule exists doesn't mean it has to be enforced or that it has to be enforced all the time. It often happens that rules/laws that are widely considered unfair or pointless are just not applied, and that is better than applying such rule/law just for the sake of it.

Your compaisson really isn't a good one, as there is an obvious lack of morality in such a situation, which doesn't exist in the case of the time rule in tennis.

What part of your post you think I answered to out of context?. I often don't quote full posts because it just would make for such long posts.

For all of you attacking Federer for his 'view', can any of you, yes ANY of you, state where he singles out Ralph or Novak?

It was pointed out already why Rafa and to some degree Novak were brought into the discussion.

Now that the Nadturds have considered this an attack to their demigod, let's talk about it. Rafa very well knows the rules, is a member of the ATP Player Council, he has been warned about it numerous times, he still keeps doing it and GETS mad when he gets called on it.

Let's see the context of him getting mad though. For example, in Wimbledon this year he seemed to complain that del Potro was not even ready to return yet (not to mention that he also takes more time than allowed to serve, and yet only Nadal was warned). And he got just slightly mad...

ChanceEncounter
09-06-2011, 05:41 PM
Spending some more time to serve is not cheating :rolleyes:

And anyway, a rule is hardly a rule if it's never enforced.

Definition of CHEAT

transitive verb
1
: to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2
: to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3
: to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>
intransitive verb
1
a : to practice fraud or trickery
b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>
2
: to be sexually unfaithful —usually used with on <was cheating on his wife>
3
: to position oneself defensively near a particular area in anticipation of a play in that area <the shortstop was cheating toward second base>

Let me repeat:

b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>

Just because a rule isn't enforced enough doesn't make it okay to break it. People run stop signs or do a 'rolling' stop at a stop sign, but it doesn't mean that it's okay. If a cop sees you and feels like busting you for doing that, he's perfectly in his right and you have no right to complain.

Federer is saying that the rule should be enforced more. And I think it's fair. There's a reason why people can't take 2 minutes between points. Tennis is a game of fitness, and time wasting is blatantly trying to game the system.

A player can't say his "natural serving rhythm" is 2 minutes between points. Because your "natural rhythm" comes secondary to the rule, which is 20 seconds between points.

Crisstti
09-06-2011, 05:42 PM
Why would anybody take into consideration what the media has been writing about for years? That would be too reasonable for many of those nutty Nads. To them they will say the media and commentators are in some kind of conspiracy. You hear them say that all of the time with the Nadal MTO/injury issue. LOL! Impossible to reason with "the flock of extreme worshippers!"

Nah, you just hear people calling BS for what it is: BS.

Go Roger! 100% correct and its about time they do something about it. The commentators in Eurosport talked about it in the Nadal/Mahut match, when Mahut had a chance early in the 2nd on Nadal's serve, and Nadal took his sweet, sweet time to serve. Commentators said Nadal usually does this one under pressure.

Wow, a player taking more time to serve when there's a break point?. Never heard of that before. The outrage.

I'm just saying, since it seems to me that Roger's quote was in part directed towards tennis' falling popularity...

I don't think tennis' popularity is falling in most of the world...

Rules=/=Laws, first off.

Secondly, laws are made to be followed. Sure, there are some stupid ones. But there are reasons for them.

Rules = laws, in this context.

Stupid, pointless rules/laws shouldn't be followed. The ITF and most umpires seem to think so as well, hence the lack of enforcement the time rule gets.

Err, it's not ruining the game. It's making it less boring. I don't want to waste a minute of my time while someone is preparing to serve.

If a match would be decided by something like that?, yeah, it would be ruining the game.

Plus, you don't like players taking long, but you still watch tennis. And a lot (I would think most) people don't mind at all.

It all comes down to supremacy and the belief that you have superior right to cheat and rob your opponent of equal opportunity. Instead of BOTH players having equal opportunity to dictate rhythm, Vernique & co are convinced that one player should have a privilege to exclusively impose his rhythm on the other while the other player should be deprived and robbed of his right to do the same in equal measure.

No, no one has said anything like that...

ChanceEncounter
09-06-2011, 05:45 PM
Rules = laws, in this context.

Stupid, pointless rules/laws shouldn't be followed. The ITF and most umpires seem to think so as well, hence the lack of enforcement the time rule gets.

So you're saying that if a player wants to spend 5 minutes between points. He should be allowed?

Crisstti
09-06-2011, 05:48 PM
Let me repeat:

b : to violate rules dishonestly <cheat at cards> <cheating on a test>

"Dishonestly" being the key word there.

Just because a rule isn't enforced enough doesn't make it okay to break it. People run stop signs or do a 'rolling' stop at a stop sign, but it doesn't mean that it's okay. If a cop sees you and feels like busting you for doing that, he's perfectly in his right and you have no right to complain.

But that comes down to someone running a stop sign doing something wrong because they're doing something potentially dangerous to others.

Federer is saying that the rule should be enforced more. And I think it's fair. There's a reason why people can't take 2 minutes between points. Tennis is a game of fitness, and time wasting is blatantly trying to game the system.

A player can't say his "natural serving rhythm" is 2 minutes between points. Because your "natural rhythm" comes secondary to the rule, which is 20 seconds between points.

But you use two minutes as an example when no one takes that long.

Crisstti
09-06-2011, 05:49 PM
So you're saying that if a player wants to spend 5 minutes between points. He should be allowed?

No. But no one does such a thing.

ChanceEncounter
09-06-2011, 05:51 PM
"Dishonestly" being the key word there.

So you think certain players are unaware that there's a time limit? Dishonesty is knowing something is wrong/against the rules and doing it anyway.

But that comes down to someone running a stop sign doing something wrong because they're doing something potentially dangerous to others.

And taking too long on serve means you, as the server, have added recovery time while the receiver is left hunched over and anticipating your serve. That's an unfair advantage.

But you use two minutes as an example when no one takes that long.

Because it's an argument via extremism. Logic must be universal. If you are trying to conclude that B must be true via A, then for all values B, it must be true via A.

So I'll ask again, do you think it's okay if someone took 2 minutes between serves?

No. But no one does such a thing.

Then how long do you think people should be allowed to have?

cc0509
09-06-2011, 05:55 PM
Crisstti;5969108]Nah, you just hear people calling BS for what it is: BS.

It is not BS. Nadal has been known for years for taking eons in between serves. World wars are started and ended faster than Nadal can take between points! Stop saying it is BS, it is not BS and honestly, personally I really could not care how long he takes. It does not bother me but to say the issue is not there is simply ludicrous.

Crisstti
09-06-2011, 06:05 PM
So you think certain players are unaware that there's a time limit? Dishonesty is knowing something is wrong/against the rules and doing it anyway.

I'm saying they're aware that the rule exists pretty much only on paper.

And taking too long on serve means you, as the server, have added recovery time while the receiver is left hunched over and anticipating your serve. That's an unfair advantage.

Any recovery time the server gets that way, the receiver gets too. So no unfair advantage at all.

Because it's an argument via extremism. Logic must be universal. If you are trying to conclude that B must be true via A, then for all values B, it must be true via A.

So I'll ask again, do you think it's okay if someone took 2 minutes between serves?

I would call what you used a fallacy. The time rule exists so that the server doesn't go overboard with the time he/she takes. It seems very clear that the ITF/umpires think the rule isn't well done, hence the lack of application.

To answer your question: I think two minutes would be too long.

Then how long do you think people should be allowed to have?

That is a whole new discussion... but I guess something closer to 40 seconds/1 minute.

I'm not sure I see much of a need to change the rule though, since it's not really enforced, and no one takes unreasonable amounts of time. Unless umpires would begin to decide points through penalties.

It is not BS. Nadal has been known for years for taking eons in between serves. World wars are started and ended faster than Nadal can take between points! Stop saying it is BS, it is not BS and honestly, personally I really could not care how long he takes. It does not bother me but to say the issue is not there is simply ludicrous.

I was of course talking about your reference to Rafa's MTOs.

ChanceEncounter
09-06-2011, 06:09 PM
I'm saying they're aware that the rule exists pretty much only on paper.

So they're only marginally dishonest. They're still dishonest. The definition still stands.

Any recovery time the server gets that way, the receiver gets too. So no unfair advantage at all.

Uh, yes it is. The server is standing, knowing exactly when he's going to serve. The receiver is leaning, on his guard because the serve can come at any time. It takes more physical effort to receive than to serve.

I would call what you used a fallacy. The time rule exists so that the server doesn't go overboard with the time he/she takes. It seems very clear that the ITF/umpires think the rule isn't well done, hence the lack of application.

There is no logical fallacy, because my logic is true for every analogous circumstances. Logical fallacies are when you present an argument that is flawed but you attempt to come to the conclusion anyway.

Yes, the spirit of the time rule is that players can't take "too long." However, what the ATP deems as "too long" is more than 20 seconds between points.

To answer your question: I think two minutes would be too long.

That is a whole new discussion... but I guess something closer to 40 seconds/1 minute.

So, if you think the time limit should be increased to 40 seconds, and someone comes around and takes 50 seconds in between points consistently, you think it's fine as long as he isn't getting punished for it?

Then why have the rule at all?

Manus Domini
09-06-2011, 06:22 PM
Wow, a player taking more time to serve when there's a break point?. Never heard of that before. The outrage.

Wait, so taking a minute to serve should be condoned?

I don't think tennis' popularity is falling in most of the world...


I'm just saying what I believe Roger is referring to.

Rules = laws, in this context.

Stupid, pointless rules/laws shouldn't be followed. The ITF and most umpires seem to think so as well, hence the lack of enforcement the time rule gets.

Laws must be followed. If everyone starts picking and choosing which laws to follow, it would be anarchy, not society. Say I like driving fast, does that mean the speed limit is a stupid law?

Sports have set rules that are intrinsic in their nature. Those rules should be followed.

If a match would be decided by something like that?, yeah, it would be ruining the game.

Plus, you don't like players taking long, but you still watch tennis. And a lot (I would think most) people don't mind at all.

I watch more matches from the 80s and 90s than from the current crop. I refuse to watch a Murray match, for example, because it's just plain boring.

Crisstti
09-06-2011, 06:36 PM
So they're only marginally dishonest. They're still dishonest. The definition still stands.

How is that being "marginally dishonest"?.

Uh, yes it is. The server is standing, knowing exactly when he's going to serve. The receiver is leaning, on his guard because the serve can come at any time. It takes more physical effort to receive than to serve.

I really don't think it takes more physical effort to receive than to serve (then, I've never played tennis, so I'd like to know what other think about that), but in any case I don't see the relevance. They are both not making a physical effort in that time.

And when it comes to Rafa, the serve cannot actually come at any time. He has a routine that he sticks to. I'm quite sure players know when he's going to serve.

There is no logical fallacy, because my logic is true for every analogous circumstances. Logical fallacies are when you present an argument that is flawed but you attempt to come to the conclusion anyway.

Yes, the spirit of the time rule is that players can't take "too long." However, what the ATP deems as "too long" is more than 20 seconds between points.

Seems like a straw man to me. But maybe I'm missing your point.

What the ATP deems as "too long" is not really more than 20 seconds. If they really deemed that as too long, the rule would be enforced.

So, if you think the time limit should be increased to 40 seconds, and someone comes around and takes 50 seconds in between points consistently, you think it's fine as long as he isn't getting punished for it?

Then why have the rule at all?

The point of having the rule is to stop players from taking unreasonable amounts of time. I don't think players actually do that, as what they take seems quite reasonable to me. The (lack of) application of the rule to me shows that that is what the ATP thinks as well. Basically what is done is to leave it to the judgement of the umpire if a player is taking too long or not, which in practice makes the actual rule different from the one on paper.

I think if the rule was more reasonable, then it should be enforced. But I would still be against applying a penalty if a player would go some seconds over the time in an important point, since the effect that would have would seem more negative to me.

TMF
09-06-2011, 06:37 PM
No, no one has said anything like that...

Read their posts. Based on their arguments, they think Nadal has every right to consume as much time as possible in both serving AND receiving. Constantly defending Rafa senselessly, that sum it up.

I've never heard Vernique admit Nadal robbed the server's time was wrong. She think Nadal can do anything he wants on the court. It's like there's a special rules that only apply to Nadal. Ridiculous !

Crisstti
09-06-2011, 06:45 PM
Wait, so taking a minute to serve should be condoned?

I would say so, at least on break points, yeah. Maybe one minute would be too much, but something close to that...

[QUOTE=Manus Domini;5969214]Laws must be followed. If everyone starts picking and choosing which laws to follow, it would be anarchy, not society. Say I like driving fast, does that mean the speed limit is a stupid law?.

The speed limit is not a stupid law because there's a reason for it. And a good one at that.

This is a deep discussion really. I'm certainly of the opinion that laws must not necessarily be followed. Not if they're immoral/pointless.

People were obligued by law to report a runaway slave in the US in a point in history, does that mean people should have followed that law?.

Is someone doing something wrong if they cross a street with a red light when no car is coming?.

Sports have set rules that are intrinsic in their nature. Those rules should be followed.

If a rule is not enforced then it's really a rule just on paper. What is done in practice is more important.

I watch more matches from the 80s and 90s than from the current crop. I refuse to watch a Murray match, for example, because it's just plain boring.

Fair enough. I for one like Murray's game.

Crisstti
09-06-2011, 06:46 PM
Read their posts. Based on their arguments, they think Nadal has every right to consume as much time as possible in both serving AND receiving. Constantly defending Rafa senselessly, that sum it up.

I've never heard Vernique admit Nadal robbed the server's time was wrong. She think Nadal can do anything he wants on the court. It's like there's a special rules that only apply to Nadal. Ridiculous !

Not sure about what others might have argued about this in the past. But Rafa hardly takes much time when receiving. He basically just towels off while the other player is choosing the balls.

Manus Domini
09-06-2011, 07:03 PM
I would say so, at least on break points, yeah. Maybe one minute would be too much, but something close to that...

Fine, 45 seconds then? 15 seconds over the limit?

The speed limit is not a stupid law because there's a reason for it. And a good one at that.

This is a deep discussion really. I'm certainly of the opinion that laws must not necessarily be followed. Not if they're immoral/pointless.

People were obligued by law to report a runaway slave in the US in a point in history, does that mean people should have followed that law?.

Is someone doing something wrong if they cross a street with a red light when no car is coming?.

Before my real response, I'd like to just say I agree with the bolded part :)

There is a difference between immoral and pointless. Do not confuse the two. The Waxhaw Massacre was immoral; the Battle of Cold Harbor was pointless. See the difference?

If a rule is not enforced then it's really a rule just on paper. What is done in practice is more important.

Fine. Take Ancient Sumer, prior to Hammurabi's Code. You can kill a man and there's no law against it. Is that right, even if it is done in practice?

Crisstti
09-06-2011, 07:49 PM
Fine, 45 seconds then? 15 seconds over the limit?

Sure, why not. I'm open to changing my mind though in exactly how much should be allowed if the rule were to be changed. As it is, I don't find the amount players take to be unreasonable.

Before my real response, I'd like to just say I agree with the bolded part :)

There is a difference between immoral and pointless. Do not confuse the two. The Waxhaw Massacre was immoral; the Battle of Cold Harbor was pointless. See the difference?

I know :)., That's why I put an example for each. I think the 20/25 seconds rule is rather pointless, and just not well done.

Fine. Take Ancient Sumer, prior to Hammurabi's Code. You can kill a man and there's no law against it. Is that right, even if it is done in practice?

I might not have explained myself well here. I don't mean at all that anything that in practice is done is right because of that. I mean that if a law/rule is immoral/pointless it's OK to not follow it.

Especially when it comes to certain rules/laws that are not morality based, but simply intend to mantain a certain order (in the game, in this case). This rule is in practice not applied because it's understood that it's not a reasonable rule. So I don't see a problem with players following what has come to be the rule in practice.

ChanceEncounter
09-06-2011, 08:45 PM
How is that being "marginally dishonest"?.

Because the player knows the rule is there. He also knows that it's possible to get warned for it. And yet, he does it anyway, knowing that most people don't get warned for it. It's gaming the system by taking advantage of the circumstances. A truly honest player would not break any rules.

I really don't think it takes more physical effort to receive than to serve (then, I've never played tennis, so I'd like to know what other think about that), but in any case I don't see the relevance. They are both not making a physical effort in that time.

Standing up straight allows you better airflow than leaning. One can also collect his thoughts and recover while serving, while the receiver has to continually focus on the server in case he decides to serve. The server can bounce balls at his leisure.

In almost all sports, defending is harder than attacking, because the defender has to react to the attacker who knows where he's going. In American football, defenses tire out more quickly than offenses. In football, the team with the ball at their feet can tire out the defending team by forcing them to chase. It's no different in tennis. The extra energy expended by being mentally resilient and ready to receive the serve is greater than that of collecting your thoughts for the serve. This is especially true during recovery time (in between points). The server gets more of a chance to get the wind back in them.

And when it comes to Rafa, the serve cannot actually come at any time. He has a routine that he sticks to. I'm quite sure players know when he's going to serve.

Yes, and what if a player has a routine that demands a minute in between points? He shouldn't get that minute because the ATP has rules regarding service times.

Your personal ticks come secondary to ATP rules.

Seems like a straw man to me. But maybe I'm missing your point.

My point is that you can't arbitrarily move the goalposts just to include Nadal. You claim that someone taking 2 minutes in between points would be ridiculous and shouldn't be allowed. So then you have to set the time somewhere.

Once you set the time limit somewhere, using your exact logic (the server may have certain routines, etc) should apply universally. So if it's okay for a player (e.g. Nadal) to take 40 seconds when the limit is 20 seconds, then it should be similarly "okay" for a player to take 60 seconds when the limit is 40 seconds. Or 2 minutes when the limit is 1 minute.

But your argument runs into a contradiction because you yourself claimed that it's not okay for someone to take 2 minutes.

What the ATP deems as "too long" is not really more than 20 seconds. If they really deemed that as too long, the rule would be enforced.

The ATP does enforce the rule. If a player receives a warning for going 21 seconds instead of twenty, the ATP will uphold the ruling. What the ATP doesn't do, however, is encourage their umpires to watch for this thing. Much of the time, the umpire doesn't even notice the clock between points (they already have a lot they need to do).

The point of having the rule is to stop players from taking unreasonable amounts of time. I don't think players actually do that, as what they take seems quite reasonable to me. The (lack of) application of the rule to me shows that that is what the ATP thinks as well. Basically what is done is to leave it to the judgement of the umpire if a player is taking too long or not, which in practice makes the actual rule different from the one on paper.

I think if the rule was more reasonable, then it should be enforced. But I would still be against applying a penalty if a player would go some seconds over the time in an important point, since the effect that would have would seem more negative to me.

Yes, the key words being "to you." It may not "seem" reasonable to others.

But regardless of what it 'seems', there are rules in place for these things, and they should be enforced. It wouldn't make sense if we enforced the foot fault rule only arbitrarily. Or if we allowed players to go overtime on changeovers and medical timeouts on their whim. These time limits are in place for a reason. They should be followed.

Either get rid of them altogether, or start enforcing them. This "umpire's decision" stuff just leads to biased and unfairly called matches.

dmcb101
09-06-2011, 09:01 PM
People have different rhythms to play. And they should try to respect other players rhythm.

As a viewer it doesn't bother me at all if a player takes time between points... TBH I hadn't even ever noticed it before I read tennis forums (I had sometimes noticed some players playing very fast, for example I remember Ríos would often not even wait for the crowd to be quiet).
If anything it adds drama.

BTW, that article appears to be ridiculously biased. See how it just assumes that Rafa is trying to irritate opponents with that (and it doesn't assume the same about Novak).

Disagree. Players do it purposefully and it is against the rules. I believe that you can plan at an average pace and players do not do that because they know they will get under there opponents skin. I like a player who just plays tennis, not mind games and trying to bend the rules.

lendledbergfan
09-07-2011, 12:00 AM
Any recovery time the server gets that way, the receiver gets too. So no unfair advantage at all.



It IS unfair. Because the receiver might be fitter than the server. Case in point, Woz/Kuz match yesterday. If Kuznetsova would have been allowed two hours of rest after the end of second set, she might have taken Woz down after rest (or take to the extreme, 1 day of rest). But because she had to continue playing, she tamely lost 6-1.

In the short term, if a server is taking 40 seconds after a 25 shot rally, it is unfair to the receiver, 'coz the receiver might be fitter than the server and does not need those extra 15sec (that the server) needs to catch his/her breath and hence loses the advantage on the next point. This is why the 25second limit is imposed.

lendledbergfan
09-07-2011, 12:06 AM
[QUOTE=Manus Domini;5969214]
The speed limit is not a stupid law because there's a reason for it. And a good one at that.


Similarly, the time limit enforcement is not a stupidly enforced law 'coz it has good reasons:

1. A physically fitter should get an advantage over an unfit one by allowing a "reasonable" time (25sec. is reasonable) to recuperate / towel / collect balls between points.

2. It does not make the game boring for the general audience (notice I audience in general. Sure, Rafa taking 45sec in between serves does not bore you, and many other Rafa fans here, but it DOES bore me to death, and many others too. And this is when Rafa is my favorite player of this era!!)

ChanceEncounter
09-07-2011, 12:50 PM
The main problem isn't that there's a rule. The rule is perfectly reasonable and the ATP will uphold any violations to it. The problem is that the umpires only enforce the rule semi-arbitrarily. It leads to criticisms of bias. A referee that lets a time violation go is almost obliged to do so for all violations based on the precedence he set.

It's time to give the chair umpires a stop watch and have them start it automatically after the conclusion of the point. If it goes over time, the server gets a warning. If they do it multiple times, it's time to start penalized points. The rule should be the rule.

TheTruth
09-07-2011, 12:58 PM
The rule should be changed to incorporate the more physical game players are playing these days.

I hate when old rules, that are never looked at, or updated remain in the books.

Or, enforce all of the rules, like not stopping after the change of ends to get a drink, or towel off. Of course, that would take a lot of time away from the game, because it's a silly rule, but fair is fair.

Anyway, big egg on their face when they shot-clocked Nadal (only) during the Nalby match and he proved them wrong.

Go after everyone, not just one player, otherwise it's unfair, biased, and haterade material.

Polaris
09-07-2011, 01:29 PM
The rule should be changed to incorporate the more physical game players are playing these days.

I hate when old rules, that are never looked at, or updated remain in the books.

Or, enforce all of the rules, like not stopping after the change of ends to get a drink, or towel off. Of course, that would take a lot of time away from the game, because it's a silly rule, but fair is fair.

Anyway, big egg on their face when they shot-clocked Nadal (only) during the Nalby match and he proved them wrong.

You've conveniently obfuscated the issue and sidestepped the fact that Nadal is a known and documented time-waster. This is common knowledge publicly accessible to anybody with a stopwatch and anybody who reads published surveys while not burying their heads in the sand. One false negative case does not absolve him from his countless serial time violations.


Go after everyone, not just one player, otherwise it's unfair, biased, and haterade material.
Once again, the pet excuse of people like you is that Nadal is unfairly targeted. Surveys are conducted on many players, not just one. In fact, a player as much maligned for his time wasting as Nadal is Stan Wawrinka. Read these surveys properly (without your Nadal goggles). It is not haterade material - this comes with the territory. If a 300-ranked player is wasting time, who would care? That fellow doesn't get as much attention anyway. If the top-ranked player in the world does it routinely and blatantly as if doesn't matter, then people cannot help but take notice. This is not unfair targeting; it is just the nature of fame in sports.

Omega_7000
09-07-2011, 02:25 PM
People have different rhythms to play. And they should try to respect other players rhythm.



My rhythm forces me to bounce the ball 20 times, adjust my hair, put finger in my behind & wink 10 times.

Should my opponents respect this?

TJfederer16
09-07-2011, 02:31 PM
It is almost painful when watching it, like waiting for almost a minute for the next point to start, i do hope some rules are put in in the future because it does destroy the viewing of tennis, but it doesn't seem likely.

ChanceEncounter
09-07-2011, 02:38 PM
My biggest criticism isn't even necessarily the people that take too long in between points (that's annoying too), but the people who take a long time between first and second serves.

You just served. What's taking so long?

dennis10is
09-07-2011, 02:51 PM
As a viewer I do not mind time violations,

I think at heat of the moment it adds to the drama and thats good

As a player, I dont know. I have seen Tsonga, and some others playing Nadal complained. But I dont know if I would or not.

I would be nice if in the NBA finals, they can call a time out and take extra time like five minutes or ten minutes toweling off. It would add to the drama. One can see the ref begging the players to get back on the court to play and one team just refusing to do so, asking for more gatorade, or finishing up on their tattoos, or getting a trim.

The advertisers would love it, they can have a twenty minutes commercial break.

Manus Domini
09-07-2011, 03:53 PM
Sure, why not. I'm open to changing my mind though in exactly how much should be allowed if the rule were to be changed. As it is, I don't find the amount players take to be unreasonable.



I know :)., That's why I put an example for each. I think the 20/25 seconds rule is rather pointless, and just not well done.



I might not have explained myself well here. I don't mean at all that anything that in practice is done is right because of that. I mean that if a law/rule is immoral/pointless it's OK to not follow it.

Especially when it comes to certain rules/laws that are not morality based, but simply intend to mantain a certain order (in the game, in this case). This rule is in practice not applied because it's understood that it's not a reasonable rule. So I don't see a problem with players following what has come to be the rule in practice.

I disagree. If a law is immoral, I believe you are obligated to not follow it.

If Congress says "you must walk around wearing green pants", that law is pointless, but who is it hurting? You? Your friends?

Meanwhile, taking 45 seconds can hurt someone. It is a violation of the rules by a great margin. Now, if the limit was raised to 40 seconds, I'd see far less issue with it. I would disagree for different reasons, but I wouldn't complain about people taking 35 seconds before a serve because they are breaking rules.

That being said: If we increase the time limit legally from 25 to 45 seconds, who is to say it won't increase to 60 seconds, or 70 seconds, or 90 seconds? Now, 25 v. 30 seconds isn't much of a difference, but 25 seconds to a minute-and-a-half is.

Manus Domini
09-07-2011, 03:55 PM
[QUOTE=Crisstti;5969273]

Similarly, the time limit enforcement is not a stupidly enforced law 'coz it has good reasons:

1. A physically fitter should get an advantage over an unfit one by allowing a "reasonable" time (25sec. is reasonable) to recuperate / towel / collect balls between points.

2. It does not make the game boring for the general audience (notice I audience in general. Sure, Rafa taking 45sec in between serves does not bore you, and many other Rafa fans here, but it DOES bore me to death, and many others too. And this is when Rafa is my favorite player of this era!!)

Who said I was a Rafa fan?

lendledbergfan
09-07-2011, 04:00 PM
The rule should be changed to incorporate the more physical game players are playing these days.

I hate when old rules, that are never looked at, or updated remain in the books.

Or, enforce all of the rules, like not stopping after the change of ends to get a drink, or towel off. Of course, that would take a lot of time away from the game, because it's a silly rule, but fair is fair.

Anyway, big egg on their face when they shot-clocked Nadal (only) during the Nalby match and he proved them wrong.

Go after everyone, not just one player, otherwise it's unfair, biased, and haterade material.

ACtually thats not true. Here:

Rafael Nadal just took 45 seconds to serve at 5-5, 30-40 in the third set against David Nalbandian, but because he had been warned previously and would lose a point, the chair umpire did nothing. What's the point of warning a player if you have no intention of docking him a point if he does it again and again? How anyone cannot see Nadal's tactics as gamesmanship bewilders me.
-- Patrick Preston, Chicago
• I don't think it's gamesmanship, nor do I think it's gamesmanship when Novak Djokovic takes forever. That implies a level of conniving and deceit. I just think it's two guys who have habits that entail breaking a rule. Just bring on the darn shot clock already.

What's with CBS' gadgets? They had a shot clock for Nadal-David Nalbandian that they showed off at 30-love, on serve in the first set. It was nowhere to be seen when Nadal was serving at break point at the end of the set or in the tiebreak. What's the point of having a nifty time gadget if you're not using it when the players are infamous for taking a long time? (I counted 30 generous Mississippis at one point and the clock was nowhere to be seen.)
-- Fiona, Houston
• Shot. Clock. With. Consistent. Enforcement.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_wertheim/09/05/mailbag.time/index.html#ixzz1XJJSD7ns