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lendl1986
09-13-2011, 12:18 PM
I had been hitting buckets of balls for 1 - 1.5 hours at a time, often swinging with full strength over a period of 2-3 weeks, every other day.

Shoulder felt a bit sore, but I ignored it. After a 10 min. session a week ago, the shoulder becamse so painful I stopped.

It's in a sling now and I can't type or use a mouse for more than 10 min. without taking a break. This is affecting my work.

So, if you're going to work on your serve:

1. Limit to 30 minutes at a time.
2. Ice your shoulder afterward.
3. If you feel any pain in your shoulder, just stop.

We've all played through tennis elbow, sore feet, sore muscles, etc., but shoulders are pretty serious business, as I'm learning now.

scotus
09-13-2011, 12:26 PM
That's too much practice.

But the advice you offered, while helpful, is insufficient.

Serious tennis players must work the opposing muscles to prevent muscle imbalance. In order to avoid damage to the rotator cuff, the muscles that pull together the bottom of the scapulae must be strengthened.

Since you wear a sling, I suppose you will be seeing a physio? S/he will tell you all about the rehab work you need to do.

fRa
09-13-2011, 12:29 PM
It's a good thing you listened to the pain in your shoulder. I was in the situation as you about 7 months ago or so. Practicing serves a lot and probably arming the serve to get that extra power... My shoulder was painful but I kept playing.

After a while the pain stopped and while performing an inside out forehand, I dislocated my shoulder. It came out of nowhere...

I was in a sling for 6 weeks and didn't play tennis for about 2 and half months.

user92626
09-13-2011, 01:39 PM
Dont' scare me, man. :) I just served 150 balls in 50 minutes today!

When you server (before you got in this state), did you feel any restriction in the shoulder? Any noticeable forced pressure?

I have no idea whether I serve correctly or not. All I know is I try to stay relaxed and increase rackethead speed as much as possible.

LeeD
09-13-2011, 01:44 PM
Guess you missed all the threads about serve practice.
Most agree it's 15 warmups at 60%, then no more than 50 hard flat first serves, that many seconds, and back to groundies..

lendl1986
09-13-2011, 01:51 PM
Dont' scare me, man. :) I just served 150 balls in 50 minutes today!

When you server (before you got in this state), did you feel any restriction in the shoulder? Any noticeable forced pressure?

I have no idea whether I serve correctly or not. All I know is I try to stay relaxed and increase rackethead speed as much as possible.

I felt no restriction while on the court.

Off the court, I felt a dull pain in the shoulder that would last a few hours.

After a serving session 4 days ago I felt a little pain that day.

Starting the following morning, I've been in constant pain unless laying down.

So it may not go bad all in one painful moment. It just creeps up on you.

TaihtDuhShaat
09-13-2011, 02:57 PM
Also make sure your racquet is not too heavy and HL for your serve. When I had my racquet up to 380g, 7 pts HL, I was getting shoulder pain from serve practice. Now at 363g, 4.5 pts HL, the racquet swings nicely through the follow-thru with no shoulder pain. It might take some experimenting with weight and balance. I learned that less HL racquets are much easier to serve with.

pvaudio
09-13-2011, 03:30 PM
I promise you that it's either technique, equipment or muscle weakness. I practice serves at 1.5hr blocks all of the time. I also tore my rotator cuff 5 years ago. Not a twinge of pain ever. I redid my entire motion and beefed up the shoulder. It honestly hurts more if I reach for my seatbelt too quickly. Point is, look at your motion, make sure if you're using poly that it's not dead, and do rotator cuff and shoulder exercises. It makes a huge difference. :)

BirdWalkR
09-13-2011, 03:34 PM
I promise you that it's either technique, equipment or muscle weakness. I practice serves at 1.5hr blocks all of the time. I also tore my rotator cuff 5 years ago. Not a twinge of pain ever. I redid my entire motion and beefed up the shoulder. It honestly hurts more if I reach for my seatbelt too quickly. Point is, look at your motion, make sure if you're using poly that it's not dead, and do rotator cuff and shoulder exercises. It makes a huge difference. :)

What kind of exercises can you do? any you can do without going to the gym super often?

user92626
09-13-2011, 04:03 PM
Talking about technique, isn't the serve motion the same as throwing an American football? You can throw it as hard as you can/your strength allows as long as you don't somehow over-extend, overstretch your shoulder, correct?

Chenx15
09-13-2011, 04:11 PM
OP, how long have you been playing?

there was a time when i practiced my serves for one month straight one hour a day and did not experience any pain and the quality was pretty good were reaching the back fence easily and some kick on it. a proper serve should not feel any pain at all.

on another instance I practiced for 20 minutes one time and my groove was off and the lateral side of my arm was killing me and my serves were only clearing the baseline by a foot. i stopped for a few minutes and just decided to spin the ball, after 5 minutes pain was off and got the proper groove back.

if you feel pain, it's mostly bad technique.

Chas Tennis
09-13-2011, 04:32 PM
FYI

Here's some information about the impingement danger in serving. If your shoulders are not properly positioned you are taking a risk according to these videos.

another recent thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrfeihung View Post
........... I would stick to this technique but it ended up putting a lot of stress on my shoulder. ........................................

Be very careful with new motions and shoulder pain. This video warns of shoulder impingement issues caused by not orienting the shoulders properly while internally rotating the shoulder.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s&feature=related
At the beginning he mentions that the rotator cuff muscles rotate the arm. To be clear the internal shoulder rotation that powers the serve is produced mainly by the lat and pec muscles as you can check by searching the internal shoulder rotation muscles.

For more details on shoulder injuries and conditioning this Todd Ellenbecker video is excellent:
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?Rotator
Type in Rotator in the SEARCH box.
Or direct -
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&media_type_id=3&Media_FileURL=&media_name=rotator&media_desc=&media_status=1&media_preview=1&show=10&extra=0&reviewed=1&errors=&presenter=Todd%20Ellenbecker&AssetCategory=&basicsearch=1&ATT=&LineNbr=1&StartRow=1&ts=1

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-13-2011, 04:33 PM
Also, when you're just practicing serve. I'd focus more on motion, technique, and contact point. Not so much on "let's see how hard i can smack it!" So serving practice should not be THAT stressing to the shoulder. Having said that, there should be a limit to how many balls you serve. But that's different for different people I think. For me, I cap it at about 200 balls on any given day.

Not to mention, I think serves is more about your feet and core. The arm is just there to transfer the energy/momentum to the ball (much like any other stroke in tennis). Which is why your motion, core and leg strength are more important.

LeeD
09-13-2011, 04:47 PM
There is NOTHING in life you can do at 100% for longer than 40 minutes that won't hurt you in the long run.

Fuji
09-13-2011, 05:48 PM
There is NOTHING in life you can do at 100% for longer than 40 minutes that won't hurt you in the long run.

I actually really agree with Lee here!

-Fuji

Bergboy123
09-13-2011, 06:45 PM
I agree with what people say about technique here.

But also what I find very helpful when I practice my serve for long periods of time as I have been this past week is to work up in terms of physical difficulty.

I start with second serves because they are the least demanding on my shoulder and body. Then I progress to slice, then to kick, then to flat where I really whack the ball. I think the kick serve might actually be harder on the shoulder just because of the positioning of the toss, but I still prefer to have flat serves last.

samster
09-13-2011, 06:55 PM
There is NOTHING in life you can do at 100% for longer than 40 minutes that won't hurt you in the long run.

Words of wisdom.

eliza
09-13-2011, 07:00 PM
Guess you missed all the threads about serve practice.
Most agree it's 15 warmups at 60%, then no more than 50 hard flat first serves, that many seconds, and back to groundies..

see how much we need our senior experts? REPEAT, REPEAT, REPEAT!!!
and for females, I would go 5-10 less...

Fuji
09-13-2011, 07:23 PM
see how much we need our senior experts? REPEAT, REPEAT, REPEAT!!!
and for females, I would go 5-10 less...

I'm not a female, but I do go around 10 less. I rather dislike practicing serving, or should I say, over practicing it. It puts a lot of strain on my body to serve at my max capacity over and over. I can hit 2nd serves all day without much issue, but really going for bombs I do it less then 5 times during practice, and never back to back. I just can't handle it! (It's different in a game situation where there is at least 45 seconds to 2 minutes between each of my serves.) :)

-Fuji

zapvor
09-13-2011, 07:33 PM
my shoulder's been killing me this whole summer. i might have to go lefty soon

Fuji
09-13-2011, 07:39 PM
my shoulder's been killing me this whole summer. i might have to go lefty soon

Have you been over working your shoulder in either practice or too many matches?

-Fuji

ryu1revline
09-13-2011, 07:56 PM
Hi Lendle,

You may not agree now, but this is a good thing for your tennis game because the body is exposing a large flaw in your technique. You will need to rework your serve to generate that power from your hips, legs, chest, arms, back, and shoulder equally.

When I hurt my shoulder many years ago, it caused me to re-think the way I had been muscling the ball, and out of those ashes came a very loose and much more powerful serve.

Also, it would help to tone down the pace on the practices. :)

UCSF2012
09-13-2011, 08:38 PM
I had been hitting buckets of balls for 1 - 1.5 hours at a time, often swinging with full strength over a period of 2-3 weeks, every other day.

Shoulder felt a bit sore, but I ignored it. After a 10 min. session a week ago, the shoulder becamse so painful I stopped.

It's in a sling now and I can't type or use a mouse for more than 10 min. without taking a break. This is affecting my work.

So, if you're going to work on your serve:

1. Limit to 30 minutes at a time.
2. Ice your shoulder afterward.
3. If you feel any pain in your shoulder, just stop.

We've all played through tennis elbow, sore feet, sore muscles, etc., but shoulders are pretty serious business, as I'm learning now.

My serve practice sessions go 1.5 -2 hrs with no hint of shoulder problems. I have had a dislocated shoulder in the past, and it has nothing to do with serve sessions going long. (well, sometimes)

My guess is you either 1) lift weights or 2) lead up your rackets with LOTS of lead. Of the two, lifting weights is the more deadly one. Once you recover, you have to strengthen your shoulder muscles. In particular, you have to work on your rotator cuff muscles. (My PT gave me a couple exercises to do, but I can't really explain them in words. Google it.) The rotator cuff muscles are the main muscles keeping the humerus in the socket. The stronger those muscles, the less likely it is to dislocate.

danno123
09-14-2011, 03:57 AM
I played a guy with shoulder problems last year. He started out ok but by the end of the match was serving underhand. I offered to stop the match and reschedule but he insisted on continuing. I haven't seen him around the courts since and I think he might have given up the game. After that match I did some research on tennis shoulder injuries and found this article:
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/phys-ed-how-to-fix-a-bad-tennis-shoulder/

Right now my serve is definitely the "low hanging fruit" of my game. It's the area of my game that I could most easily improve and win more points. But I'm old, so I'm taking my time and limiting practice sessions to twice a week and doing resistance band exercises for my shoulder. In a couple of weeks I might work up to 3 practice sessions a week.

Cindysphinx
09-14-2011, 04:46 AM
I'm not a female, but I do go around 10 less. I rather dislike practicing serving, or should I say, over practicing it. It puts a lot of strain on my body to serve at my max capacity over and over. I can hit 2nd serves all day without much issue, but really going for bombs I do it less then 5 times during practice, and never back to back. I just can't handle it! (It's different in a game situation where there is at least 45 seconds to 2 minutes between each of my serves.) :)

-Fuji

I tend to agree. Serve practice should be limited and focused.

I think that if you are practicing your serve, a casual observer ought to be able to watch you and say, "She's working on *that.*"

In other words, I think a lot of people go out and hit a bunch of serves with no purpose. I think it is easier to limit the number you hit if you have a specific thing you are trying to learn or correct. And if you have a limit, you are less likely to hit bad tosses and thereby "waste" a serve.

My absolute limit highest I've done is 150 serves, but I think that is excessive. More typical is one hopper of 75. If I haven't fixed it by then, I probably won't fix it and am just grooving bad technique.

mikeler
09-14-2011, 04:54 AM
What kind of exercises can you do? any you can do without going to the gym super often?


Google rotator cuff exercises. You can do them with low weights and it only takes maybe 15 minutes a week. They work.

dman72
09-14-2011, 05:33 AM
I thank the stars that I have bulletproof shoulders. I actually feel that I do more damage practicing my second serve (topspin) than with my flat serve because it doesn't feel as smooth. I think part of it is that I have been doing dumbell military presses since I was...14? ..so I think most of my muscles in that area are solid. My elbow, wrist, or bicep will start to hurt long before my shoulder does, and by then I've probably hit about 140 serves which is stupid anyway.

In the OPs case I would completely stop serving for at least a week, maybe 2, and research research research rotator cuff exercises and therapy..and start doing them immediately....don't just go ice and heat because while it will heal, the underlying problem will only resurface...if you can afford it go to a physical therapist, do so.

This is what I did when I had my only bought with tennis elbow 2 years back (poly strings with no dampener "experiment" :( stupid *** )..I rush ordered a flex bar and started doing tyler twists and I was cured in a few days....and it was so bad I couldn't even grip a racquet at that point.

charliefedererer
09-14-2011, 06:31 AM
Here's a great set of rotator cuff exercises that mikeler was talking about above.

If you are going to be serving a lot, even if you have good technique, do the "thrower's ten":
http://www.yocto-tennis-club.com/images/andyserve.jpg

http://img.docstoccdn.com/thumb/orig/38830502.png

mikeler
09-14-2011, 07:10 AM
These are the 4 rotator cuff exercises I do twice a week during my strength training:

http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/healthy/physical/injuries/265.html

CDestroyer
09-14-2011, 07:16 AM
You guys with sore shoulders are arming your serves. Keep that shoulder loose so you can get maximum velocity and angle with pronation.

Also lift weights.

JRstriker12
09-14-2011, 07:43 AM
What kind of exercises can you do? any you can do without going to the gym super often?

Don't need a gym just some rubber tubing or those stretchy yoga bands - wouldn't cost more than $10:

Here are some good shoulder injury prevention movements for the shoulder: http://www.varietytrainer.com/shoulder-complex-exercises-to-prevent-injuries/


At the very basics, internal and external rotation are a must - this from a tennis player who separated his shoulder (playing soccer) a few years ago.

odessa
09-14-2011, 08:17 AM
what i find pretty hard when people try to train their serves with really old flat balls. That is asking for trouble.

lendl1986
09-14-2011, 08:22 AM
I certainly have BAD technique, as documented here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwFwwG_H_7s

But the shoulder broke down around the time that I was really making improvements, as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4UPGepbZvw

If you pause the above video at :23 I'm swinging from an angle totally new to me:

http://skypilotmedia.com/temp/angle.jpg

I served a few hundred with this new motion and now my arm is in a sling.

Laver777
09-14-2011, 08:35 AM
I had been hitting buckets of balls for 1 - 1.5 hours at a time, often swinging with full strength over a period of 2-3 weeks, every other day.

Shoulder felt a bit sore, but I ignored it. After a 10 min. session a week ago, the shoulder becamse so painful I stopped.

It's in a sling now and I can't type or use a mouse for more than 10 min. without taking a break. This is affecting my work.

So, if you're going to work on your serve:

1. Limit to 30 minutes at a time.
2. Ice your shoulder afterward.
3. If you feel any pain in your shoulder, just stop.

We've all played through tennis elbow, sore feet, sore muscles, etc., but shoulders are pretty serious business, as I'm learning now.

wow, 1hr+??!!! thats no wonder you had a sore shoulder. i practice no more than 20mins a few times a week. you really shouldnt need to ice anything unless youre a pro training for a slam. even then they would be conditioned enough not to need icing. i use most of my training for the gym which is where i get my best results from if ive put the effort in there. when i practice its really just to work on something i struggled on in a match and to keep my touch and feel there.

mikeler
09-14-2011, 08:48 AM
You guys with sore shoulders are arming your serves. Keep that shoulder loose so you can get maximum velocity and angle with pronation.

Also lift weights.


I video taped myself and you are correct in my case. Now that I'm focused on getting my arm in the back scratch position each time, all is right with the world again.

Chas Tennis
09-14-2011, 10:18 AM
But the shoulder broke down around the time that I was really making improvements, as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4UPGepbZvw

I served a few hundred with this new motion and now my arm is in a sling.

I was able to stop one of your frames around ball impact. You have a large angle at your elbow.

All the high performance serves on the internet show a straight arm and if the view point is right an angle between the straight arm and the racket. Search and stop frame at contact.

I don't know medicine so see a Dr. Don't play. If you powered the internal shoulder rotators with the arm and racket bent you can tear a tendon in your elbow. If you have a pain on the inside of your elbow have a Dr look at you for golfer's elbow. I had a golfer's elbow injury.

This thread has discussions and illustrations of the proper angle between the arm and racket. Check the Toly replies.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=370729

eliza
09-14-2011, 01:54 PM
what i find pretty hard when people try to train their serves with really old flat balls. That is asking for trouble.

Oh, Oh, guilty!!

I did not know we were still TEACHING the "scratch your back" position, little passe', is not it?

user92626
09-14-2011, 01:58 PM
what trouble is there with old balls?

My serve technique must agree with me or something because I have always tried to serve harder and harder and I still feel OK.

LeeD
09-14-2011, 02:40 PM
When practicing serves, I get caught in the bad habit of trying to hit my fastest serves regardless of court, temps, balls, or condition of balls.
Trying to smack serves in 52 degree foggy weather, dead 7 month old Dunlops, and little warmup is a formula for disaster. I can try harder and harder until something snaps, but the ball is never going anywhere.
Then one day every 5 years, the weather cooperates, it's 80 degrees and windless, my body is actually almost working, I have new Wilson's, I actually hit a few warmups, and my serves almost go decently. Maybe about 20 mph faster and with a much higher bounce.

Chenx15
09-14-2011, 06:20 PM
I was able to stop one of your frames around ball impact. You have a large angle at your elbow.

All the high performance serves on the internet show a straight arm and if the view point is right an angle between the straight arm and the racket. Search and stop frame at contact.

I don't know medicine so see a Dr. Don't play. If you powered the internal shoulder rotators with the arm and racket bent you can tear a tendon in your elbow. If you have a pain on the inside of your elbow have a Dr look at you for golfer's elbow. I had a golfer's elbow injury.

This thread has discussions and illustrations of the proper angle between the arm and racket. Check the Toly replies.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=370729

i was about to mention that as well. your elbow is bent my friend. maybe you can try a higher toss because your toss may be too low and is not giving you enough time to **** in properly and your getting the ball low so you bend your forearm.

martini1
09-15-2011, 07:49 AM
Talking about technique, isn't the serve motion the same as throwing an American football? You can throw it as hard as you can/your strength allows as long as you don't somehow over-extend, overstretch your shoulder, correct?

You don't swing your arm nearly as hard with the football. And if I understand it correctly you don't have a lot of shoulder turn with the football compared to serving. A bad follow thru may also pull stress on your body, while with the football you got nothing on your hand to hinder your follow thru....

user92626
09-15-2011, 09:41 AM
You don't swing your arm nearly as hard with the football. And if I understand it correctly you don't have a lot of shoulder turn with the football compared to serving. A bad follow thru may also pull stress on your body, while with the football you got nothing on your hand to hinder your follow thru....

Thanks, your answer is very informative. More questions :)

For shoulder turn:
Imagine there's a line drawn from left to right shoulder, how should this line align in relation to the upper arm line at contact point, and at the end of the follow-through?

Where should I aim to end my follow through?

charliefedererer
09-16-2011, 07:51 AM
Thanks, your answer is very informative. More questions :)

For shoulder turn:
Imagine there's a line drawn from left to right shoulder, how should this line align in relation to the upper arm line at contact point, and at the end of the follow-through?

Where should I aim to end my follow through?

Most agree Fed has a pretty classic swing.

This view shows the shoulder angles:

http://www.mftenniscoaching.co.uk/Motion%20Expert/federer.jpg

It is clear the shoulder over shoulder "cartwheel" is mainly in the vertical plane, as was emphasized in this video:

Preventing Rotator Cuff Injury: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s







http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m3/mar2008/7/2/9DA1D24A-CF2F-5224-F3EAE2129E3F5E87.jpg

Fed (pic 10 above) doesn't finish with his upper arm going actually up, as well as his elbow pointing as far up as Sampras. Heck, no one does. But the end result of full pronation is still seen in pic 10 with the thumb and racquet pointed straight down.



If you are not pronating fully, you may want to try this drill:

Pronate: http://www.active.com/tennis/Articles/5-Steps-to-a-Supersonic-Serve.htm?page=2

Chas Tennis
09-16-2011, 09:01 AM
Most agree Fed has a pretty classic swing.

This view shows the shoulder angles:

http://www.mftenniscoaching.co.uk/Motion%20Expert/federer.jpg

It is clear the shoulder over shoulder "cartwheel" is mainly in the vertical plane, as was emphasized in this video:

Preventing Rotator Cuff Injury: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s
.........................

Just to make sure nobody confuses these slow "shoulder angles" or 'shoulder turns' of orientation motions with internal shoulder rotation -

The main power contribution to the racket head speed in the serve - internal shoulder rotation - is occurring only around the time of picture #8. This twitch-like motion (very roughly 0.03 sec in duration) is much faster that the slower shoulder orientation motions that are displayed. These motions don't contribute that much to racket head speed.

martini1
09-16-2011, 04:22 PM
Most agree Fed has a pretty classic swing.

This view shows the shoulder angles:


It is clear the shoulder over shoulder "cartwheel" is mainly in the vertical plane, as was emphasized in this video:

Preventing Rotator Cuff Injury: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s




Fed (pic 10 above) doesn't finish with his upper arm going actually up, as well as his elbow pointing as far up as Sampras. Heck, no one does. But the end result of full pronation is still seen in pic 10 with the thumb and racquet pointed straight down.

Good info there. I always know about the shoulder turn and drop but my coach has mentioned many times that I am losing power due to these:

- opening up my left side (rib cage) too soon

- chest and head should be still facing at initial angle (more closer to the right side, rather than facing the net at contact)

He is also telling me not to try too hard on the racket/thumb down finish. The reason being if you do that too soon at contact, you are putting a lot stress on the wrist. But I feel that "looking at the time on the watch" finish happens naturally on the flat serve a lot.

On one note is that Federer has the same look for every kind of serve. But at rec level we need several different tosses and swings.

Mahboob Khan
09-16-2011, 06:30 PM
Excessive serving poses problem for the shoulder (post 1), but kids under 14 years of age should also be very careful as their body parts, bones, muscles, etc., are in the process of growing. Kids should be careful with the kick serve wherein they have to arch their back to add more kick to the ball, this might hurt the spine. The kids must understand the bypass of the racket .. 7 to 1 o' clock position .. but avoid tossing the ball behind. As they cross the puberty years peacefully they may then learn to toss the ball a bit behind as compared to the first serve.

Coming back to the adult serve:

It is always recommended to warm up your shoulder by throwing medicine ball: first with two hands, and then with the serving hand mimicking the serve motion. If you follow this routine, your shoulder will stay healthy and powerful.

For ground strokes: Throw the medicine ball like you would hit your FH, BH.

yonexpurestorm
09-16-2011, 09:49 PM
i only practive serves with a new can of tennis balls with a fresh string job. i have to warm up with no less than 12 serves before i start hitting flat first serves. once i feel any pain or soreness i stop hitting flat serves and only hit slice/kicks. for me, serves are the number one thing that hurts my elbow/shoulder so i am really carefull.

NLBwell
09-16-2011, 10:30 PM
I'm not a female, but I do go around 10 less. I rather dislike practicing serving, or should I say, over practicing it. It puts a lot of strain on my body to serve at my max capacity over and over. I can hit 2nd serves all day without much issue, but really going for bombs I do it less then 5 times during practice, and never back to back. I just can't handle it! (It's different in a game situation where there is at least 45 seconds to 2 minutes between each of my serves.) :)

-Fuji

Seems like Rafael Nadal will be complaining to the umpire about your slow play.

Fuji
09-17-2011, 06:25 AM
Seems like Rafael Nadal will be complaining to the umpire about your slow play.

LOL! I guess I worded that wrong! I meant that normally I get a serve in and play a point, before I have to serve again. I didn't mean to say that I take up to 2 minutes between 1st and 2nd serving! :D

-Fuji

Chas Tennis
09-18-2011, 08:18 PM
I certainly have BAD technique, as documented here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwFwwG_H_7s

But the shoulder broke down around the time that I was really making improvements, as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4UPGepbZvw

If you pause the above video at :23 I'm swinging from an angle totally new to me:

http://skypilotmedia.com/temp/angle.jpg
I served a few hundred with this new motion and now my arm is in a sling.

Here is a frame showing your elbow angle at impact. This is on all the serves. Compare to Federer serve is earlier reply.

The YT video frame at impact with the bent elbow is now a single jpeg image on Snapfish. However, the Snapfish ijpeg image link is not working on the forum. ?? Does anyone know how to display one image from a YT video?


http://www.snapfish.com/snapfish/slideshow/AlbumID=4870512025/PictureID=188924509025/a=6083127025_6083127025/otsc=SHR/otsi=SPIClink/COBRAND_NAME=snapfish/

See second 0:05 of the Lendyl1986 video for the bent elbow at impact.

Chas Tennis
08-23-2012, 10:40 AM
I recalled your thread from last year when reading another thread.

How have your recovered?

Do you have an idea of what the injury might have been or how it may have been caused?

lendl1986
08-23-2012, 10:50 AM
It's been a year and I have not recovered.

Torn cartilege (labrum) in right shoulder.

Caused by too much serving (1.5 hrs a day for 3 weeks...though I was picking up balls and doing cardio too). And more importantly, a stiff arm during serving...be loose and finish your swings!

Surgery coming in Nov. 12 month recovery.

Chas Tennis
08-23-2012, 12:16 PM
I am very sorry to hear that.

What do you think of the bent-arm-at-impact issue that looks unusual and very stressful to me in your videos. (Apparently, there was no Golfer's Elbow injury.) Nearly all serving videos that I see show the nearly straight arm well before and through impact.

Did you find another technical flaw in your service motion?

Best of luck with your procedure.

mightyrick
08-23-2012, 12:21 PM
It's been a year and I have not recovered.

Torn cartilege (labrum) in right shoulder.

Caused by too much serving (1.5 hrs a day for 3 weeks...though I was picking up balls and doing cardio too). And more importantly, a stiff arm during serving...be loose and finish your swings!

Surgery coming in Nov. 12 month recovery.

Oh man, that is horrible. I've never had this injury myself. But I know a guy who has. I know it may worry you, but I assure you that a complete recovery is possible with a torn labrum.

Just make sure to do your physical therapy and strengthen that shoulder up after your surgery. Also, very regular massage in that area will be very beneficial.

Best of luck.

Torres
08-23-2012, 12:53 PM
The YT video frame at impact with the bent elbow is now a single jpeg image on Snapfish. However, the Snapfish ijpeg image link is not working on the forum. ?? Does anyone know how to display one image from a YT video?


http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l528/TorresNo9/shoulder.jpg

Sorry to hear about the OP's injury.

It does look it like was caused by a technique issue. Arm and shoulder needs to stay pretty loose during the serve, with a full extension of the arm at the point of contact. Problem with a bent elbow is that is that its likely to tighten the shoulder when serving, so its likely to result in the shoulder 'thrown' during the service motion which is going to put alot of strain on the RC, particularly so if the OP was trying to power serves with that type of technique.

Hope that the OP's surgery is successful and wish him all the best for a full recovery.

lendl1986
08-23-2012, 01:19 PM
Lack of full extension was one problem.

But a generally stiff arm during serve and groundstrokes was the real culprit.

Staying "loose" in the arm isn't just for extra power, spin, and consistency: it does prevent injury.

Chas Tennis
08-23-2012, 01:27 PM
http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l528/TorresNo9/shoulder.jpg

Sorry to hear about the OP's injury.

It does look it like was caused by a technique issue. Arm and shoulder needs to stay pretty loose during the serve, with a full extension of the arm at the point of contact. Problem with a bent elbow is that is that its likely to tighten the shoulder when serving, so its likely to result in the shoulder 'thrown' during the service motion which is going to put alot of strain on the RC, particularly so if the OP was trying to power serves with that type of technique.

Hope that the OP's surgery is successful and wish him all the best for a full recovery.

Thanks, that's exactly the frame that I originally wanted to show.

Torres
08-23-2012, 02:06 PM
Lack of full extension was one problem.

But a generally stiff arm during serve and groundstrokes was the real culprit.

Staying "loose" in the arm isn't just for extra power, spin, and consistency: it does prevent injury.

Yeah - if you look at the photo you can see how tensed up and sinewy the muscles are in your forearm. Very hard to keep the shoulder loose when you are tight in the elbow and forearm because the arm and shoulder are obviously linked. Also a bent arm doesn't help with consistency which is probably why you've inadvertently locked the elbow and tightened the arm.

If its any consolation, all these technique issues can be corrected so once you're recovered, there shouldn't be any reason why you can't get back to tennis and serving.

Honestly, I wish you all the best with the op and subsequent recovery. Make sure you have a good course of physio afterwards and keep up with whatever rehab exercises they recommend. That's really important. May take some time, but you'll get there in the end because the body always wants to heal itself and you'll help with that if you can help point it the right direction.

3fees
08-24-2012, 08:19 AM
Practice Makes Perfect,I could go into the development of the serve and the names of those who added so very much to it including the exercises and length of days practices,,however,,you can buy there books-like I did and learn all about it.


3fees :)

Chillaxer
08-24-2012, 08:41 AM
I had been hitting buckets of balls for 1 - 1.5 hours at a time, often swinging with full strength over a period of 2-3 weeks, every other day.

Shoulder felt a bit sore, but I ignored it. After a 10 min. session a week ago, the shoulder becamse so painful I stopped.

It's in a sling now and I can't type or use a mouse for more than 10 min. without taking a break. This is affecting my work.

So, if you're going to work on your serve:

1. Limit to 30 minutes at a time.
2. Ice your shoulder afterward.
3. If you feel any pain in your shoulder, just stop.

We've all played through tennis elbow, sore feet, sore muscles, etc., but shoulders are pretty serious business, as I'm learning now.
Oh, so now I know that my shoulder getting sitff and aching from service practice was not necessarily a bad action. It was just me practising for too long, hitting as hard as I could and then expecting top need no recovery time. Interesting.

TomT
08-24-2012, 08:45 AM
I had been hitting buckets of balls for 1 - 1.5 hours at a time, often swinging with full strength over a period of 2-3 weeks, every other day.

Shoulder felt a bit sore, but I ignored it. After a 10 min. session a week ago, the shoulder becamse so painful I stopped.

It's in a sling now and I can't type or use a mouse for more than 10 min. without taking a break. This is affecting my work.

So, if you're going to work on your serve:

1. Limit to 30 minutes at a time.
2. Ice your shoulder afterward.
3. If you feel any pain in your shoulder, just stop.

We've all played through tennis elbow, sore feet, sore muscles, etc., but shoulders are pretty serious business, as I'm learning now.Thanks for the reminder. I've been lucky so far. No shoulder problems ever. But I'm getting up there in age. Since returning to tennis several months ago after about 40 years away from it, I go real light on the serving practice these days.