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Djoker91
09-26-2011, 10:05 AM
So I play at a local park. I've counted 4 or 5 people hitting their forehands in a very weird yet EXTREAMLY effective manner. They have these heavy fast forehands but the way they hit them is so weird! I can barely win a point against them because as soon as I go to the forehand they blast it with only 3-5 inches net clearance. Only in the net every now and then. Not enough to stop confidence in whipping them. They actually wait until the ball is about knee level and sometimes lower and the racket is nearly vertical! Like scooping ice cream with a spoon! I tried it and it worked believe it or not but still needs practice to perfect it like they did. Have you ever seen that?! It maybe you hit like that right now? Share yur thoughts please. Thanks.

LeeD
09-26-2011, 10:07 AM
Don't feed them that same ball!
Either bounce it higher with deep heavy topspin, or slice it shorter and wider to them, so they have to run forwards and wide to just reach the ball.
YOU control situation, don't let THEM run you to start.

Djoker91
09-26-2011, 10:19 AM
Good points. I tried to do that some what, but they guy was very quick and good at getting into position. If I threw it deep in the court, he anticipated it as soon as I did and backed up 10 feet so that the ball fell into his pocket. I think ill try more slice stuff going away from him. Thanks for the reply! :-) have you ever seen anyone hit like that in your local park tho?! :confused:

sportsfan1
09-26-2011, 10:26 AM
Yeah, I have played against some of these players who go back behind the baseline, wait for the ball to drop way low, and then rip the ball with fast racquet speed. But the ball they get has to be slow - medium speed, and by going back they are probably getting into an non-ideal court position. I don't like the shot because I think apart from court-positioning, you can hit an attacking forehand by taking it early at normal height, and I don't see the top atp players hitting this shot so there must be other reasons as well. Only Roddick hits this shot, which is perhaps even more reason not to do it :)

sportsfan1
09-26-2011, 10:30 AM
See if there's a pattern to where they hit this ball typically, and then try charging the net sometimes. It will at least put more pressure on them while trying to hit that (ugly) shot.

wrxinsc
09-26-2011, 10:31 AM
So I play at a local park. I've counted 4 or 5 people hitting their forehands in a very weird yet EXTREAMLY effective manner. They have these heavy fast forehands but the way they hit them is so weird! I can barely win a point against them because as soon as I go to the forehand they blast it with only 3-5 inches net clearance. Only in the net every now and then. Not enough to stop confidence in whipping them. They actually wait until the ball is about knee level and sometimes lower and the racket is nearly vertical! Like scooping ice cream with a spoon! I tried it and it worked believe it or not but still needs practice to perfect it like they did. Have you ever seen that?! It maybe you hit like that right now? Share yur thoughts please. Thanks.

just some folks screwing around sounds like. not a legitimate shot making strategy IMO.

LeeD
09-26-2011, 10:32 AM
One of the local 4.5 old farts, probably 45 years old, really tall and strong, hits like that. He rallies like a solid 4.5, serves like that, but hates low angled skidders or varied high bouncing balls.
I don't think I can beat him in singles, but in doubles, I totally own him with loopy topspins, hard skidded slices, and short angles. He usually plays with his hitting partner, another 4.5 singles player, while I get a good 4.0 DOUBLES player, who can stand in at net most times, has an overhead (thos weak), and likes to play baseline too often.
It's a case of a hitter wanting to hit in doubles...not a great formula.
I'm a bad 4.0 with all the strokes and little movement.

Djoker91
09-26-2011, 10:49 AM
Lol I definitely hear you on that one. Makes perfect sense really. Sounds like I need to add some pepper to make sure that they don't get an easy one to rip. And maybe throwing a surprise drop shot in there. Thanks again for the feedback guys! I have to work on hitting those fast winners tho. I can hit a medium paced ball all day. But the moment I have my opponents out of position and try to finish them off and try to hit it fast and heavy its all bad... Any tips? I'm lost. :-(

Djoker91
09-26-2011, 10:52 AM
Yeah, I have played against some of these players who go back behind the baseline, wait for the ball to drop way low, and then rip the ball with fast racquet speed. But the ball they get has to be slow - medium speed, and by going back they are probably getting into an non-ideal court position. I don't like the shot because I think apart from court-positioning, you can hit an attacking forehand by taking it early at normal height, and I don't see the top atp players hitting this shot so there must be other reasons as well. Only Roddick hits this shot, which is perhaps even more reason not to do it :)

Lol I definitelyhearyou on thatone. Makesperfect sense really. Sounds like I need to add some pepper to make sure that they don't get an easy one to rip. And maybe throwing a surprise drop shot in there. Thanks again for the feedback guys! I have to work on hitting those fast winners tho. I can hit a medium paced ball all day. But the moment I have my opponents out of position and try to finish them off and try to hit it fast and heavy its all bad... Any tips? I'm lost.

rkelley
09-26-2011, 11:42 AM
So I play at a local park. I've counted 4 or 5 people hitting their forehands in a very weird yet EXTREAMLY effective manner. They have these heavy fast forehands but the way they hit them is so weird! I can barely win a point against them because as soon as I go to the forehand they blast it with only 3-5 inches net clearance. Only in the net every now and then. Not enough to stop confidence in whipping them. They actually wait until the ball is about knee level and sometimes lower and the racket is nearly vertical! Like scooping ice cream with a spoon! I tried it and it worked believe it or not but still needs practice to perfect it like they did. Have you ever seen that?! It maybe you hit like that right now? Share yur thoughts please. Thanks.

Yes, I've seen this forehand. My dad used to hit this way, and I occasionally hit with a guy now that has this forehand. If it's what I'm thinking of it's almost like a racquetball shot. Not technically ideal, but very effective if the player can get ball lined up in that low sweet spot where they like it.

I look at it as one of those things where it's not pretty, but you have to admit that it works to some degree.

What I do about it depends on my mood. If I'm feeling ornery or if I want to hit against some pace I'll just hit to that side and have a little forehand war. Even though the technique can put some pace on the ball, I should be able to out hit someone that's using it. Hitting to their forehand is a way you can get some well hit balls out of someone who might not have a ton of weapons in general.

If I want to practice more of a cerebral game I might hit once to the fh side to move them over and then go back to the backhand (which should be nice and open after you give them the forehand) and beat on that side for a while. Ususally a player hitting those low forehands probably doesn't own any other shot that they can put much pace on, so once you have them pinned over in the backhand corner it will be hard for them to get out. You can then wait of the weak ball and attack it.

You can also give them a high bouncing ball to that side. The players I've seen using that shot don't mind a little pace to their fh or generating their own pace, but they have to take the ball low and they don't want to hit on the rise. High bouncing balls will definitely take them out of their comfort zone.

mightyrick
09-26-2011, 11:49 AM
So I play at a local park. I've counted 4 or 5 people hitting their forehands in a very weird yet EXTREAMLY effective manner. They have these heavy fast forehands but the way they hit them is so weird! I can barely win a point against them because as soon as I go to the forehand they blast it with only 3-5 inches net clearance. Only in the net every now and then. Not enough to stop confidence in whipping them. They actually wait until the ball is about knee level and sometimes lower and the racket is nearly vertical! Like scooping ice cream with a spoon! I tried it and it worked believe it or not but still needs practice to perfect it like they did. Have you ever seen that?! It maybe you hit like that right now? Share yur thoughts please. Thanks.

From your description, it sounds like you are describing a standard Eastern or Continental forehand taking a very low ball.

For many Eastern grippers (myself included), we don't always need the contact point to be waist high. So if we get a short-bouncer, rather than moving up make contact (and getting stuck in no-mans land), you just let the ball drop down to the knees or chins and rip it. Such a shot requires almost a "bowling" arm motion -- if you want to get good topspin on it.

By having this shot, it allows you to hit a penetrating, low shot with a great deal of safety and interest. It also allows you to remain on the baseline... so you are in good position.

Any decent Eastern or Continental gripper should have the ability to hit this shot. Semi-western or Western grippers couldn't hit this shot at all.

Djoker91
09-26-2011, 12:32 PM
From your description, it sounds like you are describing a standard Eastern or Continental forehand taking a very low ball.

For many Eastern grippers (myself included), we don't always need the contact point to be waist high. So if we get a short-bouncer, rather than moving up make contact (and getting stuck in no-mans land), you just let the ball drop down to the knees or chins and rip it. Such a shot requires almost a "bowling" arm motion -- if you want to get good topspin on it.

By having this shot, it allows you to hit a penetrating, low shot with a great deal of safety and interest. It also allows you to remain on the baseline... so you are in good position.

Any decent Eastern or Continental gripper should have the ability to hit this shot. Semi-western or Western grippers couldn't hit this shot at all.

Yea you definitely hit the nail on the head. Its a bowling motion a deadly shot if mastered. I am an easterner and everytime I try to make a nice whipping fast **** it doesn't work out and I'm starting to believe its my contact point. I try to hit it about sternum high and for medium paced shots it works fine. But when you try to hit hard it will carry out almost every time. I think when I'm gearing up to hit a winner I should let the ball drop a good 5-8 inches to about the height of my thigh. That's what I'm thinking will help me to fix my not being able to hit the ball hard and clean off of a sitter. Does that sound about right to you?

Djoker91
09-26-2011, 12:37 PM
Yes, I've seen this forehand. My dad used to hit this way, and I occasionally hit with a guy now that has this forehand. If it's what I'm thinking of it's almost like a racquetball shot. Not technically ideal, but very effective if the player can get ball lined up in that low sweet spot where they like it.

I look at it as one of those things where it's not pretty, but you have to admit that it works to some degree.

What I do about it depends on my mood. If I'm feeling ornery or if I want to hit against some pace I'll just hit to that side and have a little forehand war. Even though the technique can put some pace on the ball, I should be able to out hit someone that's using it. Hitting to their forehand is a way you can get some well hit balls out of someone who might not have a ton of weapons in general.

If I want to practice more of a cerebral game I might hit once to the fh side to move them over and then go back to the backhand (which should be nice and open after you give them the forehand) and beat on that side for a while. Ususally a player hitting those low forehands probably doesn't own any other shot that they can put much pace on, so once you have them pinned over in the backhand corner it will be hard for them to get out. You can then wait of the weak ball and attack it.

You can also give them a high bouncing ball to that side. The players I've seen using that shot don't mind a little pace to their fh or generating their own pace, but they have to take the ball low and they don't want to hit on the rise. High bouncing balls will definitely take them out of their comfort zone.

That's what I tried! I tried giving him some decent paced high bouncers but I think he's had this shot for a long time because he was able to tell right away and back up and make the ball fall into his comfort zone. He was very fast. I think I am gonna fight fire with fire. I can't really hit the ball that hard unless I do the same thing as him I believe. Maybe I can out slug him?

mightyrick
09-26-2011, 01:01 PM
Yea you definitely hit the nail on the head. Its a bowling motion a deadly shot if mastered. I am an easterner and everytime I try to make a nice whipping fast **** it doesn't work out and I'm starting to believe its my contact point. I try to hit it about sternum high and for medium paced shots it works fine. But when you try to hit hard it will carry out almost every time. I think when I'm gearing up to hit a winner I should let the ball drop a good 5-8 inches to about the height of my thigh. That's what I'm thinking will help me to fix my not being able to hit the ball hard and clean off of a sitter. Does that sound about right to you?

Yeah, that sounds about right to me.

If you are talking about thigh-high contact, then you probably hold an Extreme Eastern grip as opposed to a regular Eastern or mild-Eastern. Otherwise, contact should be around the knees.

Let the ball drop significantly before making contact. Make contact close to the body. And as you follow through, make sure you have a lot of racquet head speed. The ball dropping combined with your racquet head speed will give you good topspin. You need to peel *through and up* on the ball. To use a boxing metaphor -- it is almost an upper-cut motion. If you lack in either of these components, you will send the ball long.

If I get a really good shot on this kind of a ball, it's very tough for someone to get it back to me. The best most people do is get racquet on the ball and give me one of the high-arcing back-spinning floaters.

Djoker91
09-26-2011, 01:15 PM
Yeah, that sounds about right to me.

If you are talking about thigh-high contact, then you probably hold an Extreme Eastern grip as opposed to a regular Eastern or mild-Eastern. Otherwise, contact should be around the knees.

Let the ball drop significantly before making contact. Make contact close to the body. And as you follow through, make sure you have a lot of racquet head speed. The ball dropping combined with your racquet head speed will give you good topspin. You need to peel *through and up* on the ball. To use a boxing metaphor -- it is almost an upper-cut motion. If you lack in either of these components, you will send the ball long.

If I get a really good shot on this kind of a ball, it's very tough for someone to get it back to me. The best most people do is get racquet on the ball and give me one of the high-arcing back-spinning floaters.

Yea knee high sounds good. Awesome I'm definitely gonna use this next time I'm on the court. I've used many other methods but took me forever to eventually realize the same problem. Whenever I go to apply speed and force it wont work. I had some surprisingly fast success on my first hour with this method. Now that you've explained it to me even more I should be able to start whipping. Thanks man this helped a lot. Good to find a fellow eastener nowadays too. ;-) keep in touch bro

LeeD
09-26-2011, 01:19 PM
Seldom, can you pass a car in front of you by plowing right thru his track.
Yes, you can develop a better efh and hit his shots better than him. Obviously, you don't have that now.
Or maybe, you can go a different track. He's better at taking deep groundies and pounding from the baseline, so DON'T. Hit short angles, hit deep hard loopers turning over on your followthru. Hit low angled slices, make him come to net on his backhand side, then when he approaches textbook to your backhand, you lob over his head.
Make him run, don't let him hit.
Or you can try to pass him by following his track :shock:

Djoker91
09-26-2011, 01:32 PM
Seldom, can you pass a car in front of you by plowing right thru his track.
Yes, you can develop a better efh and hit his shots better than him. Obviously, you don't have that now.
Or maybe, you can go a different track. He's better at taking deep groundies and pounding from the baseline, so DON'T. Hit short angles, hit deep hard loopers turning over on your followthru. Hit low angled slices, make him come to net on his backhand side, then when he approaches textbook to your backhand, you lob over his head.
Make him run, don't let him hit.
Or you can try to pass him by following his track :shock:

Yea I hear ya. I'm gonna develope a better forehand and hit strong with him, as well as mixing it up big tine with a variety of shots. Thanks for the tip. I think I need to do both. Hit stronger and faster and make him run as well.

rkelley
09-26-2011, 01:45 PM
That's what I tried! I tried giving him some decent paced high bouncers but I think he's had this shot for a long time because he was able to tell right away and back up and make the ball fall into his comfort zone. He was very fast. I think I am gonna fight fire with fire. I can't really hit the ball that hard unless I do the same thing as him I believe. Maybe I can out slug him?

With proper technique you should be able to outslug him. If you can't then that's something to work on. Proper technique should allow you to generate high racquet head speed for a ball at any height, not just the low ones. You should be able to take higher balls closer in and go for more, and the extra height should give you margin for ripping the ball and still getting it in. If he's camping out way behind the baseline then you have several options including pulling him wide and then going the other way, drop shots, or approaching.

mightyrick
09-26-2011, 01:50 PM
Seldom, can you pass a car in front of you by plowing right thru his track.
Yes, you can develop a better efh and hit his shots better than him. Obviously, you don't have that now.
Or maybe, you can go a different track. He's better at taking deep groundies and pounding from the baseline, so DON'T. Hit short angles, hit deep hard loopers turning over on your followthru. Hit low angled slices, make him come to net on his backhand side, then when he approaches textbook to your backhand, you lob over his head.
Make him run, don't let him hit.
Or you can try to pass him by following his track :shock:

Very valid point. What I would say is that a player who holds an efh grip needs both. Every player should try to make their opponents hit shots out of their comfort zone.

However, an effective EFH gripper should be able to attack the low ball and turn it into offensive weapon. Low balls should be every EFH and Conti gripper's bread and butter.

Djoker91
09-26-2011, 02:42 PM
Very valid point. What I would say is that a player who holds an efh grip needs both. Every player should try to make their opponents hit shots out of their comfort zone.

However, an effective EFH gripper should be able to attack the low ball and turn it into offensive weapon. Low balls should be every EFH and Conti gripper's bread and butter.

And the proof is in the pudding. Grass gives way to fast low balls. Federer and sampras hold 13 wimbledons between the 2. They have an eastern grip that they have mastered how to add effective topsipn.

Djoker91
09-26-2011, 02:48 PM
With proper technique you should be able to outslug him. If you can't then that's something to work on. Proper technique should allow you to generate high racquet head speed for a ball at any height, not just the low ones. You should be able to take higher balls closer in and go for more, and the extra height should give you margin for ripping the ball and still getting it in. If he's camping out way behind the baseline then you have several options including pulling him wide and then going the other way, drop shots, or approaching.

That's another thing I struggle with. How do you put away the high short balls with an eastern grip? I always hit long. Should I slightly swing more downward as if I'm throwing the ball over the net and down into the court? I heard I shouldn't do that but I've done it a few times and it did work out but only stopped doing it because I was told. Should I continue if its working? I've seen pros hit it downward into the court on the short high balls. What do you think about that issue?

rkelley
09-26-2011, 03:16 PM
That's another thing I struggle with. How do you put away the high short balls with an eastern grip? I always hit long. Should I slightly swing more downward as if I'm throwing the ball over the net and down into the court? I heard I shouldn't do that but I've done it a few times and it did work out but only stopped doing it because I was told. Should I continue if its working? I've seen pros hit it downward into the court on the short high balls. What do you think about that issue?

I use a strong E. grip, so I'm not that far away from the grip you're using. I use the same basic prep and swing path as any forehand I would hit. The biggest differences from a general forehand would be that I prep a bit higher than I normally would, my swing path is going to be more across the ball than over the ball and generally I'm going for a flatter ball, and I hit it a bit further out in front because I do in fact want to hit down on the ball if the ball's high and I'm inside the baseline. If I'm further back then trajectory has to come up a bit. It's important to let the ball drop to a reasonable height. If it's much above my shoulder it's too high.

Watch Federer. I don't hit with a straight arm, but other than that he's a great model for me. He can just punish those high balls. He just lets the racquet head whip across the ball.

One other thing that's helped recently is that during my prep, after the unit turn when I let go of my racquet throat with my left hand, I make sure to turn the racquet face toward the side fence. The rockandrolltennis guy turned me on to this tip. That really helps get my wrist laid back so that after I drop the head of the racquet and begin my forward swing I can whip the racquet head into the ball.

Djoker91
09-26-2011, 03:25 PM
I use a strong E. grip, so I'm not that far away from the grip you're using. I use the same basic prep and swing path as any forehand I would hit. The biggest differences from a general forehand would be that I prep a bit higher than I normally would, my swing path is going to be more across the ball than over the ball and generally I'm going for a flatter ball, and I hit it a bit further out in front because I do in fact want to hit down on the ball if the ball's high and I'm inside the baseline. If I'm further back then trajectory has to come up a bit. It's important to let the ball drop to a reasonable height. If it's much above my shoulder it's too high.

Watch Federer. I don't hit with a straight arm, but other than that he's a great model for me. He can just punish those high balls. He just lets the racquet head whip across the ball.

One other thing that's helped recently is that during my prep, after the unit turn when I let go of my racquet throat with my left hand, I make sure to turn the racquet face toward the side fence. The rockandrolltennis guy turned me on to this tip. That really helps get my wrist laid back so that after I drop the head of the racquet and begin my forward swing I can whip the racquet head into the ball.

Awesome thanks for passing the tip on! Ill be sure to try these out
this weekend! Side fence right? Not the back fence behind you? Because I got hooked on that and that hasn't helped. So the fence to the right.

rkelley
09-26-2011, 04:03 PM
Awesome thanks for passing the tip on! Ill be sure to try these out
this weekend! Side fence right? Not the back fence behind you? Because I got hooked on that and that hasn't helped. So the fence to the right.

Yes, the side fence. Here's the link to the rockinrolltennis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNtq393tvo
Good video on a basic, modern forehand. He uses a strong E. grip too.

Here's Federer hitting some basic forehands in slow motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc
He also uses an Eastern or a strong E. grip. The straight arm at contact looks beautiful, but I personally go with the double bend to make the timing a bit easier.

Here's a link to Yanko Tipsarevic hitting forehands. Ash, one of the coaches that posts here, pointed this guy out about a week ago. He has a nice forehand to emulate. All of the basic parts of an advanced stroke without extra florishes. I think he is using a SW grip, but the basic motion still translates. Note how they all rotate the face toward the side fence right after they release with the left hand. Every pro I've looked at who hits with a modern forehand (so just about all of the men and most of the women) do this.

Djoker91
09-26-2011, 05:37 PM
Yes, the side fence. Here's the link to the rockinrolltennis video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNtq393tvo
Good video on a basic, modern forehand. He uses a strong E. grip too.

Here's Federer hitting some basic forehands in slow motion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc
He also uses an Eastern or a strong E. grip. The straight arm at contact looks beautiful, but I personally go with the double bend to make the timing a bit easier.

Here's a link to Yanko Tipsarevic hitting forehands. Ash, one of the coaches that posts here, pointed this guy out about a week ago. He has a nice forehand to emulate. All of the basic parts of an advanced stroke without extra florishes. I think he is using a SW grip, but the basic motion still translates. Note how they all rotate the face toward the side fence right after they release with the left hand. Every pro I've looked at who hits with a modern forehand (so just about all of the men and most of the women) do this.

Definitely. Both vids showed that. I am going to employ that. Definitely helps with the whipping motion I can already tell. Great topspin. Any tips on keeping it low and not 10-15 feet in the air? A nice foot above the net? BTW you are REALLY helping me out a lot and I appreciate you taking the time out to do that!

TennisCJC
09-26-2011, 08:16 PM
And the proof is in the pudding. Grass gives way to fast low balls. Federer and sampras hold 13 wimbledons between the 2. They have an eastern grip that they have mastered how to add effective topsipn.

Yes, for anything north of a semi-western, below the waist is the sweet spot for forehand contact. I use an EFH shifted slightly toward SW and prefer to hit FH between knee and waste = about thigh hi is perfect.

I know several old school conti forehand players and they can only crush it when it is about thigh hi. Above the belly button and you can get errors from them if they go for too much.

Magnetite
09-26-2011, 09:20 PM
If they are old, make them run around for a while. They may be ahead for a while, but soon they'll tire and the match is yours.

That or give them high, deep moonballs.