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10sLifer
09-26-2011, 09:21 PM
Please critique my FH FUNdamentals video. I am really enjoying video editing and trying to get better.

Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8teOPv0xpk&feature=channel_video_title

Timbo's hopeless slice
09-26-2011, 10:11 PM
Ok, props to you for what you are trying to do, firstly.

I wonder if you are a golfer, at all? (probably quite a good one, actually)

There are some slightly odd things in your swing that put me in mind of a golf swing. I like your videos, though, even though I think your technique is a bit dated in some ways, especially your grip and tendency to close off a bit. If you look a the sample of Pete you put up you will see he is hitting very much off an open stance rather than getting that front foot over as you do... Also, what is that catching the follow through over your head business? Meh, anyway, you make lovely clean contact with the ball, no question about that.

I am sure others will speak of this in more detail, though.

Again, props to you! :)

(and be prepared for some spectacularly ill informed commentary including being told you shouldn't coach 'cos you are only a 3.5 or some such drivel)

phnx90
09-26-2011, 10:22 PM
(and be prepared for some spectacularly ill informed commentary including being told you shouldn't coach 'cos you are only a 3.5 or some such drivel)

It wouldn't be TTW without them

rjw
09-26-2011, 10:42 PM
+1 on the golf swing

Honestly, I've never seen anything quite like it on a tennis court, although it seems to work pretty well for you.

The video itself is pretty well done.

cellofaan
09-26-2011, 10:48 PM
it says elastern forehand grip at 0:49 instead of eastern.

Giannis
09-27-2011, 04:21 AM
Typical old style forehand, not bad, but a bit tight and static.

dozu
09-27-2011, 05:26 AM
yup... this is the oldie goodie style FH... pros today don't hit this way.. without much windshield wiping wrist release, you are leaving a lot of juice on the table, which could have been put on the ball.

I don't see a problem teaching this style to older rec players though, as most of them prolly watched pros hit this way when they grew up.

goober
09-27-2011, 06:04 AM
yah looks like the kind of instruction they would give on FH about 20 years ago. Nothing wrong with that since a lot of beginning rec players probably would be better off hitting this way than modern methods. That exaggerated follow through over the head - do you actually hit like that in matches?

10sLifer
09-27-2011, 06:38 AM
Thanks for your input guys!

tennismonkey
09-27-2011, 08:19 AM
that's a nice classic forehand. solid and dependable with not a lot of moving parts that will break down. i know most people want to hit a modern pro style forehand but there's still a lot to be said about a classic forehand. played a guy who had these old school pro staffs and hit old school forehands hard and flat. they felt like bowling balls on my end.

TennisCoachFLA
09-27-2011, 08:54 AM
Looks like most elderly ladies at the local park. Very stiff and robotic.

TennisCoachFLA
09-27-2011, 09:02 AM
Why were the two professionals included at the end? Their strokes look nothing like the coach. Everything is different from their bouncing footwork, take back timing, the take back, the down position, the follow through, and their open stance.

rkelley
09-27-2011, 12:46 PM
Please critique my FH FUNdamentals video. I am really enjoying video editing and trying to get better.

Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8teOPv0xpk&feature=channel_video_title

There some aspects that are good (some of prep), and some not so much. The part that shows lifting on the back toe, straight front leg, and upper arm lifted is especially troubling, though something like this used to be taught.

Here's Janko Tipsarevic hitting forehands. This is a good stroke to emulate (thanks Ash).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13N2TOH7Kwg

Here's another guy explaining a modern forehand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNtq393tvo

Also check out fuzzyyellowballs.

zapvor
09-27-2011, 12:53 PM
eastern forehand???? whos teaching you?

rjw
09-27-2011, 12:55 PM
eastern forehand???? whos teaching you?

Federer clone?

gregor.b
09-27-2011, 12:56 PM
Nice clean contact.Maybe a little extravagant on the follow through and a little closed on the stance.Good solid stroke for teaching the fundamentals.Good one.

rkelley
09-27-2011, 01:05 PM
eastern forehand???? whos teaching you?

There's nothing wrong with an Eastern grip by itself. You can still use a modern, WW swing path with an Eastern grip. It's also the grip that Dave Smith recommends folks start with in Tennis Mastery. It's not a huge change to evolve from a pure Eastern to a more Western grip, though you can stay full Eastern and have a perfectly sound, modern forehand with all of the benefits that entails (a la Federer and Del Potro).

ahuimanu
09-27-2011, 01:06 PM
Please critique my FH FUNdamentals video. I am really enjoying video editing and trying to get better.

Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8teOPv0xpk&feature=channel_video_title

Your fundamentals on the preparation looks good to me...the only aspect of your forehand... I would suggest is staying down on the follow thru (perpendicular with the ground)...you lift up a bit (which is fairly common even at the advanced levels)...so your racquet doesn't get "all" of the ball...when you get it right...you'll "feel" it, see it (ball will fire) and also hear it too... Hope this was of some value :)

PS: I see other posters talking about the modern "windshield wiper" forehand...saw Vilas on the Tennis Channel talking about following through "under" the left arm...give a try and see how it works...otherwise you have pretty good form to me ;)....here's a guy to watch as time permits...beautiful!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjBXVQyiwg&feature=related

10sLifer
09-27-2011, 01:37 PM
Wow Really enjoy reading everyones opinions. I feel like when I am not demonstrating FUNdamentals it would probably look better to most of you. Thanks again for the feedback!

RF20Lennon
09-27-2011, 01:43 PM
Please critique my FH FUNdamentals video. I am really enjoying video editing and trying to get better.

Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8teOPv0xpk&feature=channel_video_title

dude your forehand finish is weird lol

zapvor
09-27-2011, 01:43 PM
There's nothing wrong with an Eastern grip by itself. You can still use a modern, WW swing path with an Eastern grip. It's also the grip that Dave Smith recommends folks start with in Tennis Mastery. It's not a huge change to evolve from a pure Eastern to a more Western grip, though you can stay full Eastern and have a perfectly sound, modern forehand with all of the benefits that entails (a la Federer and Del Potro).

yea but in 2011 i dont think people should be using eastern. thats not what i would teach. and Federer doesnt use a real eastern. his is more like a hybrid. del potro....look what happened to his wrist!

10sLifer
09-27-2011, 01:51 PM
There some aspects that are good (some of prep), and some not so much. The part that shows lifting on the back toe, straight front leg, and upper arm lifted is especially troubling, though something like this used to be taught.

Here's Janko Tipsarevic hitting forehands. This is a good stroke to emulate (thanks Ash).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13N2TOH7Kwg

Here's another guy explaining a modern forehand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNtq393tvo

Also check out fuzzyyellowballs.


Wait a second? Doesn't Janko step forward, lift up on his back toe and lift his upper link on the first two forehands of this vid?

rkelley
09-27-2011, 02:51 PM
Wait a second? Doesn't Janko step forward, lift up on his back toe and lift his upper link on the first two forehands of this vid?

No, not in the way you were showing in your video. A modern forehand can be hit with a closed or open stance. Note the last forehand in the video. Stepping into the stroke and/or lifting up on the back foot is not generally a key element to the stroke. His front leg isn't straight.

His upper arm doesn't lift up in the manner you showed, but rather wraps around his body. Note how his racquet ends up pointing toward the back fence at the end of the follow through, not toward the net as you show. He does keep his elbow high as part of the windshield wiper follow through.

And speaking of windshield wiper, note how he generates the topspin. This is very different than what you show in your video. Look at the wrist pronation at contact and how the racquet rotates in front of his body in a plane roughly parallel to the net. Some coaches tell you to pretend you're looking at your watch. That motion, the windshield wiper, is the key to how the modern forehand can generate the crazy amounts of topspin, even with an Eastern grip, and still put serious forward velocity on the ball.

Timbo's hopeless slice
09-27-2011, 02:59 PM
doesn't tipsy have a lovely FH? I hadn't ever really looked at it before, thanks!

TheMagicianOfPrecision
09-27-2011, 03:29 PM
doesn't tipsy have a lovely FH? I hadn't ever really looked at it before, thanks!

Didnt know you quoted me, thanx! :)

TennisCoachFLA
09-27-2011, 03:36 PM
eastern forehand???? whos teaching you?

Actually we start every player off in Eastern, same with Rick Macci and many other top coaches. The battle is that many beginners will switch without realizing it to a full western. So you have to keep switching them back. After they get the stroke down, we move them more towards semi western.

I have some issues with this coaches techniques, as I reviewed several of his videos. But starting folks out in Eastern for forehands is not one of them.

Timbo's hopeless slice
09-27-2011, 05:03 PM
Didnt know you quoted me, thanx! :)

Lol, I just liked it, pretty much sums up my whole thought process when I am serving!

DjokovicForTheWin
09-28-2011, 04:11 AM
....here's a guy to watch as time permits...beautiful!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjBXVQyiwg&feature=related

Doesn't it seem like Fed is arming the ball a lot there? I mean actively swinging the arm. I realize it's just slow practice, but shouldn't the arm be always loose?

DjokovicForTheWin
09-28-2011, 04:12 AM
Please critique my FH FUNdamentals video. I am really enjoying video editing and trying to get better.

Thanks!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8teOPv0xpk&feature=channel_video_title

Are you actively using arm muscles in this video or just using the forward momentum of the body and letting a loose arm follow thru?

DjokovicForTheWin
09-28-2011, 04:14 AM
There some aspects that are good (some of prep), and some not so much. The part that shows lifting on the back toe, straight front leg, and upper arm lifted is especially troubling, though something like this used to be taught.

Here's Janko Tipsarevic hitting forehands. This is a good stroke to emulate (thanks Ash).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13N2TOH7Kwg

Here's another guy explaining a modern forehand: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMNtq393tvo

Also check out fuzzyyellowballs.

Is tipsy using an pure open stance on any of those strokes? Seems semi closed and more similar to the OP's stance.

arche3
09-28-2011, 05:39 AM
it's a rec league women FH. just sayin... Nobody hits like that anymore. (Even 7 year old junior girls don't hit like that anymore)

If you are teaching that to your serious students and junior boys and girls you are on the wrong path.

Rubens
09-28-2011, 06:07 AM
This is a cleanly hit forehand, with impeccable timing. However, I think the missing key element here is pronation, which would increase the amount of spin, as mentioned earlier.

TennisCJC
09-28-2011, 07:01 AM
You have a very good forehand. As others have said, it looks more like the Vic Braden tech of the 70s than the modern tech.

Try a semi-open stance.

Try relaxing you grip - nice and loose arm, wrist and hand. Wrist is passive - no active movement - during contact including just before and after contact. But, wrist is not locked in modern forehand like Connors and Evertt locked theirs. In reality, there is probably a little wrist movement in modern forehand but better to just relax and think passive wrist.

Try a few windshield wiper follow-thrus. Lower finish over or near shoulder, racket head tip almost pointing behind you, elbow finishing up and pointing toward opponent. Forearm pronates into WW follow-thru after full extension is reached and racket wraps around.

The modern rally ball racket head path is not as steep and the racket face is actually a bit closed at contact.

Go here and watch the modern forehand; not a real steep upward angle and still loads of topspin from these guys.
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/05/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-1.html

And, here to see the impact of closed racket face; much more top is contact below center with slightly closed racket face.

http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/06/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-2.html

If the rest of your game is on par with your forehand, I think you can easily be competitive at ntrp 4.0 level. I have played 4.0 players that didn't have your technique.

TennisCoachFLA
09-28-2011, 07:08 AM
it's a rec league women FH. just sayin... Nobody hits like that anymore. (Even 7 year old junior girls don't hit like that anymore)

If you are teaching that to your serious students and junior boys and girls you are on the wrong path.

Best post of the thread. I cringed when I saw his video of him teaching an aspiring junior girl. She was about 13 and a solid athlete and he had her getting low in a '3 point stance' then hitting, then following through over the shoulder.

My 7 year old would smoke her, as would many 7-11 year olds down here. Tennis has evolved and the explosive, open stance, forehands of even very young juniors simply do not look like what he is teaching. Kids today explode into the ball and you do not hamper their natural flexibility and explosiveness.

There is a reason most forehands look like they do today. The speed and power of the game. Like you said, he is teaching the forehand you see on the robotic players at the local park. Teaching that to a junior is setting them up for failure.

dozu
09-28-2011, 08:03 AM
didn't realize op was teaching juniors to hit this way.... then I agree with TCF and arches.... juniors should NOT hit this way... there is no future, it's like bringing a knife to a gun fight against other juniors with the modern strokes.

still think it's ok to teach older rec player (say the 3.0-3.5 crowd) though.

10sLifer
09-28-2011, 08:26 AM
Are you actively using arm muscles in this video or just using the forward momentum of the body and letting a loose arm follow thru?

The arm is lose I assure you.Each link of the kinetic chain is stopping propelling the next. Of course still a demonstration, FUNdamental video. For those of you wondering what a fundamental is:

Fundamental-
serving as, or being an essential part of, a foundation or basis; basic; underlying: fundamental principles; the fundamental structure.

10sLifer
09-28-2011, 08:27 AM
You have a very good forehand. As others have said, it looks more like the Vic Braden tech of the 70s than the modern tech.

Try a semi-open stance.

Try relaxing you grip - nice and loose arm, wrist and hand. Wrist is passive - no active movement - during contact including just before and after contact. But, wrist is not locked in modern forehand like Connors and Evertt locked theirs. In reality, there is probably a little wrist movement in modern forehand but better to just relax and think passive wrist.

Try a few windshield wiper follow-thrus. Lower finish over or near shoulder, racket head tip almost pointing behind you, elbow finishing up and pointing toward opponent. Forearm pronates into WW follow-thru after full extension is reached and racket wraps around.

The modern rally ball racket head path is not as steep and the racket face is actually a bit closed at contact.

Go here and watch the modern forehand; not a real steep upward angle and still loads of topspin from these guys.
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/05/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-1.html

And, here to see the impact of closed racket face; much more top is contact below center with slightly closed racket face.

http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/06/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-2.html

If the rest of your game is on par with your forehand, I think you can easily be competitive at ntrp 4.0 level. I have played 4.0 players that didn't have your technique.

LOL I assure you I am a little better than a 4.0.

10sLifer
09-28-2011, 08:33 AM
You have a very good forehand. As others have said, it looks more like the Vic Braden tech of the 70s than the modern tech.

Try a semi-open stance.

Try relaxing you grip - nice and loose arm, wrist and hand. Wrist is passive - no active movement - during contact including just before and after contact. But, wrist is not locked in modern forehand like Connors and Evertt locked theirs. In reality, there is probably a little wrist movement in modern forehand but better to just relax and think passive wrist.

Try a few windshield wiper follow-thrus. Lower finish over or near shoulder, racket head tip almost pointing behind you, elbow finishing up and pointing toward opponent. Forearm pronates into WW follow-thru after full extension is reached and racket wraps around.

The modern rally ball racket head path is not as steep and the racket face is actually a bit closed at contact.

Go here and watch the modern forehand; not a real steep upward angle and still loads of topspin from these guys.
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/05/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-1.html

And, here to see the impact of closed racket face; much more top is contact below center with slightly closed racket face.

http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/06/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-2.html

If the rest of your game is on par with your forehand, I think you can easily be competitive at ntrp 4.0 level. I have played 4.0 players that didn't have your technique.

Great to see some high speed research on the contact though.

rjw
09-28-2011, 09:23 AM
You have a very good forehand. As others have said, it looks more like the Vic Braden tech of the 70s than the modern tech.

Try a semi-open stance.

Try relaxing you grip - nice and loose arm, wrist and hand. Wrist is passive - no active movement - during contact including just before and after contact. But, wrist is not locked in modern forehand like Connors and Evertt locked theirs. In reality, there is probably a little wrist movement in modern forehand but better to just relax and think passive wrist.

Try a few windshield wiper follow-thrus. Lower finish over or near shoulder, racket head tip almost pointing behind you, elbow finishing up and pointing toward opponent. Forearm pronates into WW follow-thru after full extension is reached and racket wraps around.

The modern rally ball racket head path is not as steep and the racket face is actually a bit closed at contact.

Go here and watch the modern forehand; not a real steep upward angle and still loads of topspin from these guys.
http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/05/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-1.html

And, here to see the impact of closed racket face; much more top is contact below center with slightly closed racket face.

http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2011/06/roadmap-to-hall-of-fame-forehand-part-2.html

If the rest of your game is on par with your forehand, I think you can easily be competitive at ntrp 4.0 level. I have played 4.0 players that didn't have your technique.

nice, informative links...thanks for that!!

arche3
09-28-2011, 10:28 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EMNtq393tvo

I like the way this teacher explains it. (Lock and roll)

Timbo's hopeless slice
09-28-2011, 03:07 PM
yes, my 11 year old simply hurls the racquet head at the ball off an open stance with huge topsin, looks amazing and would just obliterate the 13 year old in that video...

10sLifer
09-29-2011, 11:35 AM
yes, my 11 year old simply hurls the racquet head at the ball off an open stance with huge topsin, looks amazing and would just obliterate the 13 year old in that video...

As much fun as it would be to set that up and see the result I would never intentionally put a child near someone of you mental maturity/state.

dozu
09-29-2011, 11:38 AM
let's put the 2 kids in a cage and have a fight till only 1 of them walks out!

Timbo's hopeless slice
09-29-2011, 03:36 PM
As much fun as it would be to set that up and see the result I would never intentionally put a child near someone of you mental maturity/state.

Don't take offense, fella. I am also a teaching pro, only I don't coach my own children. As it happens, both my tennis playing children hold national rankings, but I take no credit for that, They do, however, play a modern game, something you apparently don't teach at this stage.

Read my first post again before you get abusive.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-29-2011, 04:14 PM
I don't see what the OP is doing that isn't a modern FH, other than the follow thru. Is the follow thru all that defines the the modern FH vs. classic?

Timbo's hopeless slice
09-29-2011, 04:15 PM
watch his feet...

DjokovicForTheWin
09-29-2011, 04:27 PM
watch his feet...

You mean open stance versus semi closed? Federer hits half his FH's with semi closed.

Timbo's hopeless slice
09-29-2011, 04:33 PM
There is a bit more to it than that, actually. Look, read the first post I made in this thread, that's my take on it. I don't think the OP is being completely honest with himself as evidenced by the Sampras video in the original video. No way is that similar to the Op's demonstration.

HE hits the ball great, as I said before, but I fear he is setting up his students for failure at the hands of otherr kids coached in a more contemporary manner.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-29-2011, 04:37 PM
There is a bit more to it than that, actually. Look, read the first post I made in this thread, that's my take on it. I don't think the OP is being completely honest with himself as evidenced by the Sampras video in the original video. No way is that similar to the Op's demonstration.

HE hits the ball great, as I said before, but I fear he is setting up his students for failure at the hands of otherr kids coached in a more contemporary manner.

I agree, doesn't look similar to the Sampras one at all. But the main difference I seem to notice is the OP's strokes are just more rigid almost robotic, whereas Sampras is fluid. But other than that the only other differences are the high follow through and perhaps a bit less trunk rotation than than the modern FH. But in slow motion it doesn't look that different to be honest.

arche3
09-29-2011, 04:46 PM
I don't see what the OP is doing that isn't a modern FH, other than the follow thru. Is the follow thru all that defines the the modern FH vs. classic?

his stroke path and contact will not be able to hit as much spin and angle as the more modern stroke.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-29-2011, 05:04 PM
his stroke path and contact will not be able to hit as much spin and angle as the more modern stroke.

What's different about the stroke path and contact?

dozu
09-29-2011, 05:08 PM
old style stroke like OP has - racket travels in a big C
modern style - a big S

S as in Spin.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-29-2011, 05:10 PM
old style stroke like OP has - racket travels in a big C
modern style - a big S

S as in Spin.

Agreed, and that difference in C or S has to do with the follow thru, which is the major difference.

rkelley
09-29-2011, 05:29 PM
10sLifer, you got a lot of feedback on your video and a pretty good chunk of it was negative. I went and looked at some of your other videos. Though I can only find videos of forehands you appear to hit the ball pretty well. As you noted, in your video you were exaggerating some aspects of the technique that you were trying to demonstrate to make a point.

However the basic point, hopefully more gently offered, remains the same. You're teaching an older style forehand. It's not a bad shot, but in general it won't be competitive with a modern stroke. The amount of spin and pace that a player can get on the ball, while maintaining a very high level of consistency, using modern stroke techniques is pretty incredible. As Timbo says you can literally hurl the racquet at the ball, both feet off the ground, throwing your entire body into the shot. I saw the video where you poke fun at the modern forehand, but honestly, I would encourage you to consider that there just might be some significant advantages to using it.

Something I noticed in the video of you demonstrating the forehand with the junior girl, she actually is not doing some of the aspects of the forehand that you are demonstrating. Her stroke has a lot of modern characteristics. Specifically:


During the prep phase: You don't mention it in the video put she pulls her left hand across her body parallel to the baseline. This helps turn the shoulders. This is just about universally done at the pro level. Later on you talk about keeping the left arm out in front and "not pulling the [left] shoulder out. However that's exactly what pros do and that's also what your student is doing. The shoulders open up as part of the forward swing and right before contact the left arm comes back toward the body. That's an import part of generating power and if you watch the video of your student hitting that's what she's actually doing.
You demonstrate a low to high swing to generate the topspin and caution not to use your wrist. But at the pro level they are swinging the racquet into the ball at just slightly below the level of the ball and pronating the wrist at contact to generate the topspin. Again, that's what your student is actually doing when she hits.
One other point: as she takes the racquet back she very deliberately turns the racquet face toward the side fence. You don't mention this but this but it's a good technique to help you lay your wrist back prior to bringing the racquet down to the pat the dog position. Again, this turning of the wrist is pretty universal at the pro level from what I've seen.


I'm personally don't have as much of a problem with the Eastern forehand grip as other folks here, and I think it's a good grip to start with. But most players will eventually move to a more western grip because as their forehands develop it's probably a bit easier to get that action of hurling your racquet at the ball. The SW grip is the most popular grip on both the men's and women's tour and probably the grip to encourage folks to move towards. It's a nice balance of making the WW motion easy while still being able to flatten out the shot when desired.

arche3
09-29-2011, 05:50 PM
Agreed, and that difference in C or S has to do with the follow thru, which is the major difference.

There are a lot of other differences. Ill write my observations later.....

mightyrick
09-29-2011, 05:56 PM
OP. I hold a mild eastern. I really like the stroke where you attack the low ball close to the body. This is almost how I do it, as well. You can generate a ton of topspin with an EFH grip with the "bowling" motion close to the body. The variation I have put on it though is that I peel more UP on the ball rather than THROUGH the ball. I do this by making contact further out in front. I also keep my weight on my back foot on this kind of a shot. It gives me leverge to pull upward (rather than through) on the ball.

Other than that, I personally don't like how far into the court you extend your arm completely on waist/mid-torso height balls. I really think your stroke would be so much more effective if you hit a bit more out in front, kept the elbow bent, and tried to "wipe" the ball as opposed to hit through it.

My Eastern is so much more safely hit now that I "wipe" the balls that are waist high and above.

DjokovicForTheWin
09-29-2011, 05:58 PM
There are a lot of other differences. Ill write my observations later.....

Ok thanks. Watch especially his video from 1:15 to 1:25. That resembles a lot what Federer looks like in some of his slo mo videos.

canuckfan
09-29-2011, 06:30 PM
I think that the extra high finish in the video is what is putting people off. There's no doubt he's making good contact and has good weight transfer into the shot. If the finish was just a little lower and more "normal" it would just be a classic, effective forehand. I think the old school techniques can still be effective, and the western grip topspin new school can sometimes be detrimental to people learning the game. I think both techniques can be effective, according to what is needed on a given shot, against a given opponent.

I think the original video could use some more fluid movement (footwork and stroke), but other than the unusually high finish, I don't see a big problem.

onehandbh
09-29-2011, 06:36 PM
Ok thanks. Watch especially his video from 1:15 to 1:25. That resembles a lot what Federer looks like in some of his slo mo videos.

Only a little bit. Maybe from the armpits up it looks like Fed, but armpits down
it does not. The result is that the OP's forehand has more of a linear swing
path vs circular/angular momentum-based swing path of most pros.

rkelley
09-29-2011, 06:55 PM
I think the old school techniques can still be effective, and the western grip topspin new school can sometimes be detrimental to people learning the game. I think both techniques can be effective, according to what is needed on a given shot, against a given opponent.

Just picking a nit, but the Western grip isn't a requirement for a modern, WW swing path. You can use any grip from Eastern to Western and still have a completely modern, WW, hurl your racquet at the ball forehand.

10sLifer
09-29-2011, 09:35 PM
10sLifer, you got a lot of feedback on your video and a pretty good chunk of it was negative. I went and looked at some of your other videos. Though I can only find videos of forehands you appear to hit the ball pretty well. As you noted, in your video you were exaggerating some aspects of the technique that you were trying to demonstrate to make a point.

However the basic point, hopefully more gently offered, remains the same. You're teaching an older style forehand. It's not a bad shot, but in general it won't be competitive with a modern stroke. The amount of spin and pace that a player can get on the ball, while maintaining a very high level of consistency, using modern stroke techniques is pretty incredible. As Timbo says you can literally hurl the racquet at the ball, both feet off the ground, throwing your entire body into the shot. I saw the video where you poke fun at the modern forehand, but honestly, I would encourage you to consider that there just might be some significant advantages to using it.

Something I noticed in the video of you demonstrating the forehand with the junior girl, she actually is not doing some of the aspects of the forehand that you are demonstrating. Her stroke has a lot of modern characteristics. Specifically:


During the prep phase: You don't mention it in the video put she pulls her left hand across her body parallel to the baseline. This helps turn the shoulders. This is just about universally done at the pro level. Later on you talk about keeping the left arm out in front and "not pulling the [left] shoulder out. However that's exactly what pros do and that's also what your student is doing. The shoulders open up as part of the forward swing and right before contact the left arm comes back toward the body. That's an import part of generating power and if you watch the video of your student hitting that's what she's actually doing.
You demonstrate a low to high swing to generate the topspin and caution not to use your wrist. But at the pro level they are swinging the racquet into the ball at just slightly below the level of the ball and pronating the wrist at contact to generate the topspin. Again, that's what your student is actually doing when she hits.
One other point: as she takes the racquet back she very deliberately turns the racquet face toward the side fence. You don't mention this but this but it's a good technique to help you lay your wrist back prior to bringing the racquet down to the pat the dog position. Again, this turning of the wrist is pretty universal at the pro level from what I've seen.


I'm personally don't have as much of a problem with the Eastern forehand grip as other folks here, and I think it's a good grip to start with. But most players will eventually move to a more western grip because as their forehands develop it's probably a bit easier to get that action of hurling your racquet at the ball. The SW grip is the most popular grip on both the men's and women's tour and probably the grip to encourage folks to move towards. It's a nice balance of making the WW motion easy while still being able to flatten out the shot when desired.

Thanks for your balanced, honest feedback rkelley.

rkelley
09-30-2011, 08:09 AM
A couple of other things that I can add:


I agree with 10sLifer about copying the forehands of some pros. They can be very idocycratic with lots of extra motions that are really not necessary. That's why Tipsarevic's forehand is so nice. All the necessary parts executed in a simple and efficient manner. Federer has a nice motion too, but the straight arm makes the timing a bit more challenging.
I found some other videos of 10sLifer hitting. The guy can hit. Nice 1hbh. The serve has some good velocity, though I think the toss could be a bit higher and the left arm drops a bit - both problems I can have with my serve at times. The volleys are well struck but there's a lot of back swing and there's a lunging toward the net. I prefer to see a more compact stroke that's a bit more out front. Volleys are about angles and often in today's game you don't have time to do more than get your racquet turned, set the angle, and give a short punch.

10sLifer
09-30-2011, 12:49 PM
Is this better?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSI5ebpCK4k

rkelley
09-30-2011, 02:24 PM
Looks really good. You're whacking the crud out of those balls. It's a flatish (by today's standards) forehand and I can see some of the elements that you emphasized in your earlier video, but I also see a lot of modern elements in that stroke. You're getting some WW action with your wrist which is imparting topspin. Your arm is wraping around your body and the racquet is finishing pointing towards the back fence; you're not catching the racquet out front. It looks like you threw in a couple of reverse fh's (a la Nadal).

Very nice hitting.

Avles
09-30-2011, 07:55 PM
You have a very good forehand. As others have said, it looks more like the Vic Braden tech of the 70s than the modern tech.


Actually it seems that the OP has a Vic Braden connection:

http://www.jefflewistennis.com/aboutjeff.html

I think he's the poster formerly known as "heretoserve."

10sLifer
09-30-2011, 08:22 PM
Actually it seems that the OP has a Vic Braden connection:

http://www.jefflewistennis.com/aboutjeff.html

I think he's the poster formerly known as "heretoserve."

Yes this is true.

Cheetah
09-30-2011, 11:36 PM
that's the same guy?
wow. big change. if you 'moderned out' just a little bit more that would be pretty awesome I think. not saying you should change but i would love to see that with SW w/ some dog patting. that would be a killer shot

rkelley
10-01-2011, 08:06 AM
Yes this is true.

Why did you start posting under a new handle? Just curious?

frunk
10-03-2011, 03:02 PM
10sLifer - I'm also from coto.

10sLifer
10-04-2011, 09:25 AM
Why did you start posting under a new handle? Just curious?

To be honest I had forgotten my username password and everything. I did contact the forum but no reply. I end up on this forum every 5months or so. Just wanted to post and get feedback. Was looking more for editing suggestions to be honest but whatever. Enjoyed the conversation. See you guys in another few months. I will right down my name this time.

10sLifer
10-04-2011, 09:29 AM
10sLifer - I'm also from coto.

Nice! Beautiful area here. Glad I came.