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View Full Version : My serve, critique away.


Say Chi Sin Lo
09-28-2011, 12:45 AM
Hi all, feel free to critique my serve.

I should note that the balls are really flat. Even if i were to serve harder, not much was going to happen after the bounce.

Sorry for the angle too, don't have a tripod yet, I just used a chair to rest the camera.

Ad side.
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/saychisinlo/Tennis/?action=view&current=Adside480.mp4

Deuce side.
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/saychisinlo/Tennis/?action=view&current=Deuceside480.mp4

Enjoy and critique! Thanks.

Giannis
09-28-2011, 04:01 AM
Technique looks good, you could try transfering your weight more to the back foot before the toss, but i dont think it would change much. If you can serve with more pace and get 60% in, then its great.

Chas Tennis
09-28-2011, 06:30 AM
When I click on the video I get this.



This is a Private Album

Please enter the password from album saychisinlo to view this private album.

Private Album Password:

Note: cookies must be enabled and not blocked

Nellie
09-28-2011, 07:40 AM
toss further forward (current toss is over your head).

Limpinhitter
09-28-2011, 08:13 AM
Hi all, feel free to critique my serve.

I should note that the balls are really flat. Even if i were to serve harder, not much was going to happen after the bounce.

Sorry for the angle too, don't have a tripod yet, I just used a chair to rest the camera.

Ad side.
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/saychisinlo/Tennis/?action=view&current=Adside480.mp4

Deuce side.
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/saychisinlo/Tennis/?action=view&current=Deuceside480.mp4

Enjoy and critique! Thanks.

I think your serve looks good. The one technical change I would recommend is to to turn a little more and get your right elbow a little further back, away from your body, at the peak of the toss, so that your opponent can see it sticking out behind you. That will give you a longer windup for more acceleration. Just a little more than you are doing now. You don't want to overextend on the windup.

The other advice I would give you is to practice hitting both sides, and down the middle, of each service box. In a match, you want to know that you can hit first and second serves to your opponent's forehand, backhand, and right at him, as needed.

ondray
09-28-2011, 08:48 AM
All that precious potential energy in the bent knees fizzles.

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-28-2011, 09:42 AM
Technique looks good, you could try transfering your weight more to the back foot before the toss, but i dont think it would change much. If you can serve with more pace and get 60% in, then its great.

Thank you. I'm barely trying here (hardly using any arm). I think I am transferring my weight more to my back foot, I push off of my back foot and jump into the court. I'll try the "before the toss" thing though.

When I click on the video I get this.

Try it again? I clicked on my own link without signing into photobucket and I can see the videos.

toss further forward (current toss is over your head).

Toss is forward, probably couldn't tell from the behind the back angle.

... That will give you a longer windup for more acceleration. Just a little more than you are doing now. You don't want to overextend on the windup.

The other advice I would give you is to practice hitting both sides, and down the middle, of each service box.

About the longer windup/more acceleration thing. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable about it. I've had two shoulder surgeries and since then, I've adopted my original motion into the current form. It's the least stressful for me. And like I said, I'm barely trying here. I usually practice all four corners and the body serve. I just wanted to make a quick video to allow people to critique my motion.

All that precious potential energy in the bent knees fizzles.

Not sure I know what you mean by that. Are you saying it's good that I bent my knees or are you saying even with bent knees, the serve don't look all that impressive :) ? If the latter, please keep in mind I'm barely trying and these balls are dead.


Thank you thank you!

ondray
09-28-2011, 09:57 AM
Sorry, I was just joking around.

Yea, you have an excellent knee bend but it seems like you are not turning it into a more explosive movement upwards/outwards.

If you explode more upwards, you can hit the ball at higher heights and get more variety in angles and spins. Legs also contribute to the pace of the serve.

My thoughts anyway. Cheers.

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-28-2011, 10:18 AM
Sorry, I was just joking around.

Yea, you have an excellent knee bend but it seems like you are not turning it into a more explosive movement upwards/outwards.

If you explode more upwards, you can hit the ball at higher heights and get more variety in angles and spins. Legs also contribute to the pace of the serve.

My thoughts anyway. Cheers.

Can't agree with you more. When I'm practicing serves, I never go all out. I rather serve more balls per session. As to why I still bend my knees while practicing? I don't know, I guess it's just part of my motion. It's kind of awkward if I were not to bend my knees.

But in real matches, I do jump more upwards and into the court.

LeeD
09-28-2011, 10:19 AM
Looks OK at the C or 3.5 level.
You are not solid on the prep position.
Your swing is actually not bad.
Your racketpath is doing something weird, like not going into the ball.
You have no pace, shown the the short bounce before the backboard.
You basically can't or don't swing fast enough, and don't/can't use your whole body to move thru the serve into the court, twisting and ab crunching to add rackethead speed.

Chas Tennis
09-28-2011, 10:43 AM
...........

Try it again? I clicked on my own link without signing into photobucket and I can see the videos.
............



Same result. I see nothing but a blank Photobucket page. it has your account and / "Tennis", when I click "Tennis" it says private album...password... .

I believe that have I viewed something on PB recently. ?

Limpinhitter
09-28-2011, 10:45 AM
* * *
About the longer windup/more acceleration thing. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable about it. I've had two shoulder surgeries and since then, I've adopted my original motion into the current form. It's the least stressful for me. And like I said, I'm barely trying here. I usually practice all four corners and the body serve. I just wanted to make a quick video to allow people to critique my motion.
* * *

That would explain it. Best of luck.

spacediver
09-28-2011, 10:50 AM
toss further ahead and a bit more to your right. Look at your body position at contact - a lot of the time your tilted to the left.

otherwise, looks like a great motion. Good fundamental positions, and very loose and fluid.

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-28-2011, 10:59 AM
Looks OK at the C or 3.5 level.
You are not solid on the prep position.
Your swing is actually not bad.
Your racketpath is doing something weird, like not going into the ball.
You have no pace, shown the the short bounce before the backboard.
You basically can't or don't swing fast enough, and don't/can't use your whole body to move thru the serve into the court, twisting and ab crunching to add rackethead speed.

You're right, I'm not solid on the preparation position. It's not consistent enough. And for the x time, the balls are dead. I could spike them and not much will happen after the bounce. Also because I'm just practicing, I don't put everything into each ball. I rather serve more balls than to serve myself out. HOWEVER, there is some truth to your last statement, maybe I don't use enough abs. I definitely don't "clamp" down my midsection. Thanks!

toss further ahead and a bit more to your right. Look at your body position at contact - a lot of the time your tilted to the left.

otherwise, looks like a great motion. Good fundamental positions, and very loose and fluid.

Thank you for pointing that tilt to the left thing. I'll try to work on it. The ball is tossed ahead, maybe not far enough? But I don't want to be chasing the ball at the same time.

spacediver
09-28-2011, 11:00 AM
Hard to tell the depth of your toss, so might not be a problem. But definitely the tilt to the left thing needs work :)

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-28-2011, 11:09 AM
Hard to tell the depth of your toss, so might not be a problem. But definitely the tilt to the left thing needs work :)

I think it's because my body naturally follow where the racquet head end up. That's my only explanation. Otherwise I don't know why I tend to end up on my left side. :confused:

spacediver
09-28-2011, 11:31 AM
probably because your toss is too far to the left!

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-28-2011, 11:35 AM
probably because your toss is too far to the left!

Haha, noted!

Giannis
09-28-2011, 12:20 PM
Thank you. I'm barely trying here (hardly using any arm). I think I am transferring my weight more to my back foot, I push off of my back foot and jump into the court. I'll try the "before the toss" thing though.


When you are in trophy pose, you should push off mostly your front foot.

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-28-2011, 12:26 PM
When you are in trophy pose, you should push off mostly your front foot.

LOL I didn't know I had a trophy pose. I'll note that as well, thanks!

Ben Hadd
09-28-2011, 12:38 PM
Looks nice. Have you tried pointing your chest more skyward?

zapvor
09-28-2011, 06:13 PM
technique is good. you are keeping the same motion each time. it looks a tad slow but thats probably just video/angle stuff. good serve!

klementine
09-28-2011, 07:40 PM
There are so many things you're doing right. It depends on what is comfortable for you and work on getting the most out of it. Just look at the ATP.. so many different styles and techniques on serve.

This is what I like to do when serving.

-I always rock my left toe to heel before sliding with the right and springing up a bit. This helps shift my body weight forward.

-I always hold the ball with three fingers on the placement of the ball... or the toss... I like to refer to it as placement. The three finger technique helps me control the placement better and ensures that the ball is right in the zone. Whether out in front for flat serves or up and out a little for kickers.

-I always keep my chin pointing high and nice during placement of ball and through contact, this ensures that I keep my posture straight, chest and arms extended. The chin seems to be a focal point for the upper body movement for me.

-And very important for me... I always make sure to extend my left hip out a bit upon placing the ball. This helps store the energy needed to come around quicker and for some reason helps with pronating that wrist. Really gets some power.

zapvor
09-28-2011, 07:42 PM
thats what you do......not what everyone should do. why dont you post a video for us to watch klementine

klementine
09-28-2011, 07:55 PM
^ Not a bad idea.

I know that's what I DO.. That's what I said in my opening comment. Referring to varying styles. Never said that he should 'do what I do'... just what I like to do.

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-28-2011, 11:31 PM
Klementine79, I can see what you mentioned would work with a lot of people. Here's my take on your suggestions:

1) I never shuffle my feet. I don't like happy feet when I'm serving. It's too busy and to me. To me, it's another thing that can go wrong. I have tried to shuffle my feet, but it just didn't work. Planting my feet works far better.

2) I hold the ball with my fingertips, so I can just sort of release the ball, instead of chucking the ball up.

3) Chin thing is a very good suggestion. I'll try it, however it already sounds difficult.

4) Sort of lost about the hip thing... :confused:

USERNAME
09-29-2011, 12:04 AM
Looks pretty good, technically its solid. Toss a bit further in front and try to uncoil more into the ball. Deeper knee bend combined with a heavier shoulder rotation will get that ball into the back fence after one bounce (flat balls or not).

klementine
09-29-2011, 05:12 AM
Klementine79, I can see what you mentioned would work with a lot of people. Here's my take on your suggestions:

1) I never shuffle my feet. I don't like happy feet when I'm serving. It's too busy and to me. To me, it's another thing that can go wrong. I have tried to shuffle my feet, but it just didn't work. Planting my feet works far better.

2) I hold the ball with my fingertips, so I can just sort of release the ball, instead of chucking the ball up.

3) Chin thing is a very good suggestion. I'll try it, however it already sounds difficult.

4) Sort of lost about the hip thing... :confused:

I paid good money for those tips.. :smile:
You're already keeping your chin high. Hence you're making good contact. Don't worry about that!

Yeah, I try not shuffling my feet and it doesn't work.. Federer also has a 'foot-plant' and doesn't shuffle... actually it looks like you've watched some vids of Fed serving. But he does something with his feet that subtle, not a shuffle exactly, it's a subtle motion that helps get more body weight forward.

About the the left hip sticking out. Watch videos of Sampras serving, you'll see what I mean. Although I haven't figured out how to stick my hip out and get that nice knee bend you have at the same time. Sampras does this very well. It helps provide massive momentum when you uncoil and for some reason puts you in a perfect position to snap the wrist more naturally.

I simply wrote what I like to be conscious of when serving.. a mental check list if you will.

The last thing you need is to have to think too much when serving and lose the fluidity of your serve.

That's why I suggested to get better at the things you do well. Besides no matter what any of us say or suggest, nothing beats on-court coaching and tweeking.

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-29-2011, 09:57 AM
Well that's nice to hear, similarity between my serve and Mr. Federer's serve. Thank you thank you :)

I like Federer's serve, but I didn't model mine after his. It just sort of evolved into the current form.

Left hip sticking out, do you mean an excessive back arch?

Fluidity is key for me, it's just so much more efficient and easy on the body. Each time I practice serving, I usually serve 250-300 serves. I'm never exhausted afterwards. I can have serving sessions on consecutive days and not be in agony. The latter part means a lot to me since I have had two rotator cuff surgeries.

LeeD
09-29-2011, 02:22 PM
Archer's bow, effected when you hold the tossing hand really high for a longer than normal time, your hips go towards the opponent, allowing your stomach muscles to contract when the body turns forwards to face opponent during the actual forward swing.
That, a high hand, high elbow finish just after ball strike, and a much more aggressive swing even if you're just goofing around doing 300 serves.
Practicing slow technique only makes you play like that in a tight match.
You practice half speed, you WILL play at half speed.

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-29-2011, 02:55 PM
Archer's bow, effected when you hold the tossing hand really high for a longer than normal time, your hips go towards the opponent, allowing your stomach muscles to contract when the body turns forwards to face opponent during the actual forward swing.
That, a high hand, high elbow finish just after ball strike, and a much more aggressive swing even if you're just goofing around doing 300 serves.
Practicing slow technique only makes you play like that in a tight match.
You practice half speed, you WILL play at half speed.

High elbow finish, as in the Sampras motion?

Although I practice at half speed, I do not play at half speed. I definitely serve harder in matches than I do in practice. I see why that may be a problem, but I don't. I'm able to switch gears so to speak on the fly.

I just don't see the merits of killing my shoulder in practice.

q4short
09-29-2011, 03:03 PM
looks good to me! you don't need any work, lets just play lol

LeeD
09-29-2011, 07:40 PM
Sorry, practicing at half speed means you play at half speed, period.
NOBODY can up their game 50% or even 30% over what they practice at.
THINK about this. WHY would every top player alway look for other top players to practice against? If your theory hold true, a 7.0 Pro would only need a good 5.5 to practice with.
BUT THEY DON'T. They need other 7.0's to practice with AT FULL SPEED.
Serving slow just tells your mind that you serve slow. You cannot increase the pace on demand. You are not a machine that can be turned up. You are what your practice.
But if you don't care, or disagree, keep doing what you're doing. It works for you, so be it. However, you'll be stuck just where you're at.

q4short
09-29-2011, 08:12 PM
@LeeD: So your logic is that you should always practice at 100% if you intend to compete and improve 100%. I disagree.. partially.

Practice is practice, you work on different things and try different "gears." Different situations, drills, or goals of each practice calls for different intentionality. I agree that never practicing your higher, 100%, gears is not a good idea, but who's to say Say Chi doesn't practice harder serves in practice games or drills?

Say Chi Sin Lo
09-30-2011, 12:56 AM
There are merits of going 100% during practice, but I think one should only do it for a limited of time. I'll train and hit the gym hard, but I refuse to go full blast 100% at 100% of the time. If I'm just blasting everything, I'll never get the chance to work on my timing and fluidity.

I think there are various definition of "practicing hard". I believe one can practice hard in the physical sense, mental sense, and finally reflection.

Physically, yeah you want to be able to practice so when it's time for you to put away a ball in a match, you can do it without thinking too much about it.

Mentally, I'd like to think about how I can hit a better shot. For example: before I used to hit a slice serve out wide once in a while. And it's completely accidental. So I think about it. Alright, I know I can hit it, but how did I actually do it? Now it's become my go-to serve on the deuce side and because I know it's going into the corner (or close to it), I'm prepared to come in and put away an easy winner. Or just get a cheap point out of it :). My backhand, it used to be flat and not very pretty. I needed more topspin. I realized I was straight-arming my backhand instead of allowing my arm to sort of "uncoil". Now, while it's not as big of a weapon as forehand, but it's a weapon now nonetheless.

Reflection, I'd like to see what's working, what's not working, and how else can I use my shot making ability to end points early. I'm fairly confident in my return game. So I used to go after EVERY (1st and 2nd) serves. But I was giving away more free points than I was cracking flat out winners. Now, I react to 1st serves and if I can get the racquet on the ball, I try to place it deep instead of cracking a winner when I'm stretched out. Then I rely on my baseline game to either setup a putaway, come into the net.

To me, that's practice. It's not just go all out until I'm exhausted.

ahuimanu
09-30-2011, 08:32 AM
Technically, it looks like a sound service motion. However, I think you need to "load" (hold in the backswing and creating tension primarily in the legs) longer and aggressively extending upward and outward "attacking" the ball (e.g. Nadal or Fed). I see a little deceleration of your swing at the end (not helpful) and you actually want to go slow (load) and explode into the ball.

Otherwise, its OK for casual or social tennis :)


Hi all, feel free to critique my serve.

I should note that the balls are really flat. Even if i were to serve harder, not much was going to happen after the bounce.

Sorry for the angle too, don't have a tripod yet, I just used a chair to rest the camera.

Ad side.
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/saychisinlo/Tennis/?action=view&current=Adside480.mp4

Deuce side.
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/saychisinlo/Tennis/?action=view&current=Deuceside480.mp4

Enjoy and critique! Thanks.

THE FIGHTER
01-19-2014, 11:37 PM
High elbow finish, as in the Sampras motion?

Although I practice at half speed, I do not play at half speed. I definitely serve harder in matches than I do in practice. I see why that may be a problem, but I don't. I'm able to switch gears so to speak on the fly.

I just don't see the merits of killing my shoulder in practice.

if you practice it properly, at least occasionally, there's less risk of injuring your shoulder when you "switch gears on the fly" during match play. i imagine you'll be even better at finding your higher gear.

LeeD is right in this case, you should put in a hard practice at least once in a while.

mbm0912
01-20-2014, 05:29 AM
Same result. I see nothing but a blank Photobucket page. it has your account and / "Tennis", when I click "Tennis" it says private album...password... .

I believe that have I viewed something on PB recently. ?

I'd be willing to bet he needs more ISR :)

maggmaster
01-20-2014, 05:39 AM
This post is 2 years old?

Dimcorner
01-20-2014, 05:55 AM
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c164/Neuroticus/ThreadNecroCArd.jpg

samarai
01-20-2014, 07:18 AM
very nice looking serve. your serve looks a lot better than some of the 4.0 and 4.5 players on my court. and these players go to state almost every year.

Chas Tennis
01-20-2014, 07:26 AM
I'd be willing to bet he needs more ISR :)

first things first, he needs high speed video......then an analysis of his ISR

LeeD
01-20-2014, 10:26 AM
Excellent form.
World's slowest, most least energy expending swing ever.

vic59
01-28-2014, 03:02 PM
keep your eyes more long time on the ball and
leaning on the ball with body weight and more follow through

LeeD
01-28-2014, 03:11 PM
Biggest problem, good form with very little swing, so nobody can tell what happen's when he swings like he would in a match.
Dead balls are fine, it's the speed off the racket that counts, not the landing speed.
Slow swings.....if that is how you swing in a match, you have very good form, you like to stay back after serving...and with that weak swing you'd have to....
Now let's see you swinging at some serves.

Say Chi Sin Lo
01-28-2014, 03:14 PM
... I wasn't aware this was brought back to life... -.- Haha, thanks for embarrassing me guys.

I've got recent practice match videos coming, take them apart guys.

Say Chi Sin Lo
01-28-2014, 04:04 PM
As promised, here are the videos from a recent practice match. This was shot maybe 3 months ago? The match was competitive, I don't remember the score, and I don't think we finished it (ran out of light probably).

1st set:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9QQXq1yz7g

2nd set part 1:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPcq5K5UgL4

2nd set part 2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R05R6lUu1ZQ

LeeD
01-28-2014, 04:10 PM
Very Federer looking game.
Very nice, average serve, which you can improve with a slightly longer swing before impact, and of course, a faster swing.
Lots of safety in your strokes, and good depth from both of you.
Solid 4.0, can move up with just better targeting.

Bobby Jr
01-28-2014, 06:08 PM
As promised, here are the videos from a recent practice match. This was shot maybe 3 months ago? The match was competitive, I don't remember the score, and I don't think we finished it (ran out of light probably).
Some generally nice hitting.

What strikes me still is how you still almost completely arm your forehand - there is almost no core involvement at all. After the previous discussion on the topic can you not recognise you're doing this?

You have good timing, good prep and swing path - if you engaged your torso you would be nailing forehands. The guys you play against would barely get any of them back. As Lee D commented on above, I think your abbreviated take-back is part of it. If you took a longer swing it would force you to engage more of your body.

Power Player
01-28-2014, 06:19 PM
It's a nice game. Not much activity from the feet, not very aggressive hitting is really the only critique. Get a 98!! j/k.

If you were looking for any impressions or TT tips, mine would be to get more aggressive in your hitting. Also on your serve return, step in a little and split step on contact before moving into the serve. That will really help you get more pressure on the serve returns.

You have a really nice serve motion, but are not getting the power potential from it still. I think that could come with a bigger swing to contact from the racquet drop.

Ballinbob
01-28-2014, 06:24 PM
Hey Say Chi nice hitting. If you dont mind me asking, what video editing software did you use? Can you recommend any good ones for tennis ?

LeeD
01-28-2014, 06:28 PM
Looks like two totally different players, first vid and most recent.
First vid, everything looks good except for effort.
Match vids, the wrist locks up on the loop swing, closing the loop, so the serve is like a push, rather than an oval loose swingpath.
Might relaxing the wrist, or turning the racketface so it faces slightly left and upwards, release the tight wrist?

Bobby Jr
01-28-2014, 06:46 PM
It's a nice game. Not much activity from the feet...
This brings up a good point. On the baseline if you're not hitting 60% forehands you're most likely being too lazy with your movement. Unless you're playing a really solid opponent who can prevent you hitting forehands a lot you should be hitting noticeably more of them than backhands.

Even Djokovic does this and he's got one of the best 2hbh in the game.

Say Chi Sin Lo
01-28-2014, 07:30 PM
Hey Say Chi nice hitting. If you dont mind me asking, what video editing software did you use? Can you recommend any good ones for tennis ?

I just use the Windows Video Editing software that's stock in my Windows 7. It's a pain to use, that's why I hate shooting videos. Because everytime I edit a session to cut out all the ball-getting, serve-n-spray-returns, I feel like I've wasted hours of my life. On the other hand, if I don't edit those out, then no one would watch those videos. Haha.

I won't quote everyone but seems like the general consensus are two things, serve harder to milk more power out of my "nice service motion", and them feet.

For me, footwork is a never-ending evolution, so I'll just have to keep working on it.

As for the serve, what you see is the result of many adolescence/growing-pain (I had all kinds of injuries growing up). And this motion is the result of "hey, this doesn't hurt me". The serve has been the source of all of my injuries. I think I still have a huge mental block after having two shoulder surgeries. But as many of you have said, I ought to be able to milk more power out of my motion. I guess I'll just have to let go of my fear and let it rip. Because I know my shoulder is healed, it's just in my stupid head.

One other thing I've been working on since those videos is to find the rhythm in which I can make more forward progress on my serves. In other words, I want more of my body weight into my serves.

Oh and one other thing, after watching those videos again, I think I'm too indecisive on floaters. And many times, I get myself into an awkward position on the court. Another thing to work on.

Thanks y'all! There's always something to work on in tennis.

LeeD
01-28-2014, 07:35 PM
At least you have the good motion to work from, so only adding a toss more into the court (there's your "body weight"), loosening the wrist, did you have sprained wrist problems as a youth, to allow a longer loop on the swing from trophy, then THROW it hard, as hard as you can control, which should be close to your top throwing motion speed.

Ballinbob
01-28-2014, 07:36 PM
That's the software I'm using too and I absolutely hate it lol. I'll let you know if I find anything free and easy to use, I've been doing a lot of testing lately

LeeD
01-28-2014, 07:41 PM
Software works good enough, although both you say it's timeconsuming.
BallinBob, any vid of the first flat serve? Since we all agree your top/slice's can go 105+, your first flats should get up near 120.

Bobby Jr
01-28-2014, 07:45 PM
At least you have the good motion to work from, so only adding a toss more into the court (there's your "body weight"), loosening the wrist...
He hits his serve with his racquet almost straight in-line with his forearm - basically an extension of it - so there is basically no pronation on his serves.

Many people have gotten away without it over the years but it would probably be a decent improvement to his serve to work on that.

Ballinbob
01-28-2014, 07:47 PM
Software works good enough, although both you say it's timeconsuming.
BallinBob, any vid of the first flat serve? Since we all agree your top/slice's can go 105+, your first flats should get up near 120.

I'll see if I can get some tomorrow, or this weekend by the latest

Here is a flatter serve, though I'm working on flattening it out more:http://vimeo.com/82801468

Anyway, enough with me...dont want to hijack the thread too much here

Shroud
01-28-2014, 07:49 PM
As for the serve, what you see is the result of many adolescence/growing-pain (I had all kinds of injuries growing up). And this motion is the result of "hey, this doesn't hurt me". The serve has been the source of all of my injuries. I think I still have a huge mental block after having two shoulder surgeries. But as many of you have said, I ought to be able to milk more power out of my motion. I guess I'll just have to let go of my fear and let it rip. Because I know my shoulder is healed, it's just in my stupid head.



It might not apply, but there is a difference between being healed, and being strong. In case you think you can get stronger and that is the cause of your fear you might want to look at the crossover symmetry shoulder system. Its throwing motion specific and should not only remove the fear but let you maximize your speed. Pricey but I like it, and they have the super scap program too. The dvds help do it all right.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=479953&highlight=crossover+symmetry

LeeD
01-28-2014, 07:57 PM
Go out and throw a football.
My max distance, shagging for our JV QB, was right at 75 yards, or 30 yards farther than BobPolachi could throw it thru the air.
When I became a junior, MikeHolmgren was QB in our school, and I could throw easily 20 yards farther than him. Heck, out right wideout threw a football close to 85 yards, and he only tried a couple of times.
About 3 years ago, first throw, no warmup, no stretching, just under 50 yards thru the air. Disappointing, sure, but at 61, after four broken collarbones, that many separations, and one dislocate, one has to live with what one has...

Chas Tennis
01-28-2014, 08:01 PM
http://images2.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp83232%3Euqcshlukaxroqdfv%3B72%3B%3Do t%3E83%3A6%3D44%3A%3D348%3DXROQDF%3E282494386%3C25 7ot1lsi https://secure-b.vimeocdn.com/ts/367/316/367316012_640.jpg
The camera angles are different for these two videos.

This orientation of the upper arm is exactly what is warned about in the Ellenbecker video. See the E video. The upper arm bone, humerus, is in a position than can increase the risk of shoulder impingement and injury.

I believe that serving with ISR is never forced and could cause injury if practiced incorrectly. Here are some known issues. With forceful and rapid ISR the small external shoulder rotator cuff muscles have to be conditioned to keep the ball of the humerus in place and to stop the arm rotation in the follow through. See recommended shoulder conditioning exercises. Easy, light exercises.

There are also the important safety issues related to technique such as the shoulder high orientation for the serve to minimize impingement risk. Just one very bad motion can cause injury.

1) Jim McLennan short video on the rotator cuff, impingement and serving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s

2) Todd Ellenbecker video on shoulder anatomy, impingement, and serving. At about minute 8 he describes the same issue as McLennan but in more detail.
http://www.tennisresources.com/index.cfm?area=video_detail&vidid=3712&ATT=&reso=lo

If you are concerned because you are having pain, how can you determine that the technique that you use is OK? You have to study and know the proper technique and verify that you are doing it with high speed video or find a well qualified instructor. Keep in mind that the more rapid motions during the serve cannot be seen by eye or even 60 fps video so an instructor who uses HSV is a plus.

Maybe you are compensating for some other injury so take care until you fully understand the issue.

Compare the orientation of your shoulders to any of the high level servers viewed from behind.
https://vimeo.com/user6237669

LeeD
01-28-2014, 08:06 PM
So, OP's body is too upright and his arm is too upright also?

Chas Tennis
01-28-2014, 08:22 PM
So, OP's body is too upright and his arm is too upright also?

See the Ellenbecker video. The Ellenbecker video pertains to high level serving techniques using ISR as all the pro servers are doing.

1) Mostly his shoulders are too level - there is not enough lateral tilt between his spine (lumbar lateral flexion)and the two shoulders and maybe his scapula could be positioned better also. The pro server has lowered one shoulder a lot and raised the hitting shoulder.

2) The OP's racket is in line with his forearm near impact (how close?) as Bobby Jr mentioned in Reply #58. You need some angle for ISR (commonly mislabeled 'pronation') to work.

Recent thread about this forearm-racket angle.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=489960

3) OP's wrist has a much different angle than the pro server. (I believe that I may have stressed my wrist last year with a similar amount of wrist ulnar deviation.)

An exceptional jump.

LeeD
01-28-2014, 08:26 PM
Good stuff....
1. His body us upright.
2. He grips his racket like McEnroe did in his prime, unlike the way he grips it currently..and 3.

Topspin Shot
01-28-2014, 08:49 PM
Go out and throw a football.
My max distance, shagging for our JV QB, was right at 75 yards, or 30 yards farther than BobPolachi could throw it thru the air.
When I became a junior, MikeHolmgren was QB in our school, and I could throw easily 20 yards farther than him. Heck, out right wideout threw a football close to 85 yards, and he only tried a couple of times.
About 3 years ago, first throw, no warmup, no stretching, just under 50 yards thru the air. Disappointing, sure, but at 61, after four broken collarbones, that many separations, and one dislocate, one has to live with what one has...

No way. Joe Flacco won the deep ball contest out of college at 74 yards. I'm calling utter BS on this.

arche3
01-28-2014, 09:36 PM
No way. Joe Flacco won the deep ball contest out of college at 74 yards. I'm calling utter BS on this.

Same way leeD serves at 150 and beats ranked wta pros as a 3.5.

He lies. No fn way he is throwing an American football 75 yards.

Just because you repeat the same lie over and over does not make it true leeD.

Ballinbob
01-28-2014, 09:54 PM
I don't know much about football but 75 yards is a lot lol.

LeeD
01-28-2014, 10:19 PM
You who doubt are fools.
The football throw contest for QB's is ONE step.
You know that doesn't go far.
Javelin throwers take TEN steps.
Different kind of throwing.'
JaMarcusRussel can throw 100, like JayCutler, QB style. As can JohnElway.
Arche3, while I respect your tennis game, you know nothing about the mechanics of throwing anything.
Jeff Howard was the right wideout who could throw much farther than Holmgren, but being skinny and 6'4", didn't have any accuracy, and neither did I.
At 64 and 11 months, I'll bet money I can throw an NFL football well over 50 yards, given a handful of warmup throws and some warming up.
No, Montana cannot do that, at age 52.

LeeD
01-28-2014, 10:20 PM
And of course, you who doubt don't play football, did you?

Say Chi Sin Lo
01-28-2014, 10:28 PM
... Guys, I'm lost, and this is my thread, I'm not supposed to be lost in my own thread about me.

And haha, if I can chuck a football 75 yards out, I won't be here...

arche3
01-28-2014, 10:33 PM
You who doubt are fools.
The football throw contest for QB's is ONE step.
You know that doesn't go far.
Javelin throwers take TEN steps.
Different kind of throwing.'
JaMarcusRussel can throw 100, like JayCutler, QB style. As can JohnElway.
Arche3, while I respect your tennis game, you know nothing about the mechanics of throwing anything.
Jeff Howard was the right wideout who could throw much farther than Holmgren, but being skinny and 6'4", didn't have any accuracy, and neither did I.
At 64 and 11 months, I'll bet money I can throw an NFL football well over 50 yards, given a handful of warmup throws and some warming up.
No, Montana cannot do that, at age 52.

Lol. I know a lot about throwing a football. I coach youth tackle football as a volunteer coach. Im the defensive coordinator. My son plays. We hire pro throwing coaches for our qb's every preseason. Its hard to throw 75 yards. Given your predisposition to lie id say you can throw 50 yards in your youth.

Do you still maintain you beat ranked wta pros as a 3.5? Just so we are working on the same page.

arche3
01-28-2014, 10:35 PM
... Guys, I'm lost, and this is my thread, I'm not supposed to be lost in my own thread about me.

And haha, if I can chuck a football 75 yards out, I won't be here...

LeeD turns every thread into a brag about how great he is.

Dimcorner
01-29-2014, 07:07 AM
Sports Science tested Ryan Mallet's throw at about 65mph and I don't think that can cover 100 yards without a good tail wind.

I can probably chuck a football close to 75 yards... with a 20mph tail wind... and a few favorable bounces.... :)

Power Player
01-29-2014, 07:59 AM
And of course, you who doubt don't play football, did you?

I played, and I doubt. Sorry broseph. No one throws a ball 100 yards either. 75 is about the max. I am not sure why this always comes up, but someone in SF needs to take LeeD to the field and let him throw it 50 yards off one step, so we can put this to rest.

arche3
01-29-2014, 08:05 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkNQqOurmIA

Andrew luck 70 yards. multiple steps. LeeD can best this. ????

70 yards is a BBBBBbomb. What leeD throws is a Nuclear Bomb then.

Topspin Shot
01-29-2014, 10:00 AM
https://i.imgflip.com/6hum9.jpg

arche3
01-29-2014, 10:08 AM
You who doubt are fools.

At 64 and 11 months, I'll bet money I can throw an NFL football well over 50 yards, given a handful of warmup throws and some warming up.
No, Montana cannot do that, at age 52.

Better than Joe Montana currently as well. What is going on here?

Power Player
01-29-2014, 10:57 AM
LeeD is back everyone.

sabala
01-29-2014, 02:32 PM
I always forget I shouldn't start reading the last page of a thread lol.

Anyway, nice hitting! On your serve, it helps me to think about trying to keep the clavicles more straight or perpendicular to chest axis, (sternum) - when it starts to lift upwards is when you get the pinching you should avoid. Pretty obvious in that screen capture Chas had of you at contact. Torso needs to be tilted more over to the left and arm out to right to keep shoulders/arm lined up properly. Visual aid here for you to compare...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwBzxb-hGqs&feature=related

Backhand looks good but I'd like to see you turn your shoulders more. Think about about using the left hand to pull the racket back for a good shoulder turn/coiling up. You can really exaggerate this in shadow swings, pulling the racket arm as far back as you can to feel good stretch/coiling. Your torso will naturally want to snap back from that position and that's where a lot of power comes from.

Chas Tennis
01-29-2014, 02:44 PM
...........................

............................. On your serve, it helps me to think about trying to keep the clavicles more horizontal - when it starts to lift upwards is when you get the pinching you should avoid. .......................................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwBzxb-hGqs&feature=related

..........................

"clavicles more horizontal" ? What did you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavicle

That is an outstanding video of Monfil's serve.

sabala
01-29-2014, 03:07 PM
"clavicles more horizontal" ? What did you mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clavicle

That is an outstanding video of Monfil's serve.

If you raise your arms up, the clavicles will stay horizontal until the arms get to a certain point, (like 180 degrees I think). When you keep lifting your arms up past that point the clavicle will start to raise up as well creating the pinching in the shoulder girdle.

Not sure if I'm explaining too well in words here though lol but I think I have some figure drawing notes which would show it better!

Chas Tennis
01-29-2014, 03:35 PM
If you raise your arms up, the clavicles will stay horizontal until the arms get to a certain point, (like 180 degrees I think). When you keep lifting your arms up past that point the clavicle will start to raise up as well creating the pinching in the shoulder girdle.

Not sure if I'm explaining too well in words here though lol but I think I have some figure drawing notes which would show it better!

As Ellenbecker recommends it I see the clavicles as more vertical than horizontal. ?

If your view is in the Ellenbecker video, please let me know the time in the video. My interpretation is that the clavicles are very tilted especially to minimize impingement on the hitting arm when the shoulder does ISR.

In the high level serve picture, the clavicles, as shown below, are not horizontal they are more vertical than horizontal. When forceful ISR is performed or at impact you would like it so that the arm is not at much of an angle to the shoulder joint. To do this the entire upper body is tilted, look at the line of the spine and its angle to the general line of the shoulders. The full details of how impingement is avoided with the scapula and the other shoulder anatomy, including the clavicles, are not clear to me. I rely on viewing the videos of high level serves. Can you see the clavicles as horizontal in this picture on in the Monfils video?

https://secure-b.vimeocdn.com/ts/367/316/367316012_640.jpg

Pictures, shoulder impingement.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+shoulder+impingement&client=firefox-a&hs=yz0&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=mZDpUqNZyKWxBLa1gegF&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1244&bih=758

Say Chi Sin Lo
01-29-2014, 03:54 PM
Still here guys, just don't want to comment on stuff I don't know too much about and make a fool out of myself. There's a lot of information here.

This is great stuff though, I'm glad I was able to spark a discussion about serves and shoulder health.

Bobby Jr
01-29-2014, 04:34 PM
Still here guys, just don't want to comment on stuff I don't know too much about and make a fool out of myself. There's a lot of information here.
Simply: if your arm is raised above the line of your shoulders you're at much higher risk or having issues. So, to reach higher you need to tilt your shoulders.

The 'overarm' manner you serve will also have greatly reduced strength and arm speed compared to the alternative as Chas Tennis explains it.

sabala
01-29-2014, 06:42 PM
As Ellenbecker recommends it I see the clavicles as more vertical than horizontal. ?

If your view is in the Ellenbecker video, please let me know the time in the video. My interpretation is that the clavicles are very tilted especially to minimize impingement on the hitting arm when the shoulder does ISR.

In the high level serve picture, the clavicles, as shown below, are not horizontal they are more vertical than horizontal. When forceful ISR is performed or at impact you would like it so that the arm is not at much of an angle to the shoulder joint. To do this the entire upper body is tilted, look at the line of the spine and its angle to the general line of the shoulders. The full details of how impingement is avoided with the scapula and the other shoulder anatomy, including the clavicles, are not clear to me. I rely on viewing the videos of high level serves. Can you see the clavicles as horizontal in this picture on in the Monfils video?

https://secure-b.vimeocdn.com/ts/367/316/367316012_640.jpg

Pictures, shoulder impingement.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pictures+shoulder+impingement&client=firefox-a&hs=yz0&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=mZDpUqNZyKWxBLa1gegF&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1244&bih=758

I see, sorry, bad wording on my part, I'll re word my previous post. I was thinking horizontal, (perpendicular actually)as in relation to the chest axis/sternum/spine, not the ground...so right, that's not horizontal anymore. A better word might just be "straight" or "in line".

So if you imagine a T and the vertical line represents chest axis/sternum and the "horizontal" line represents left and right clavicles.

If you raise up your arm past 180 degrees it will start to break the "horizontal" line of that T shape. Will do a quick p-shop paintover soon on that...

Spin Doctor
01-29-2014, 07:58 PM
Your opponent grunts like Nadal -- do you think he's playing head games since you obviously model your game after Fed? Does he take MTO's before your service games too?

Chas Tennis
01-29-2014, 08:03 PM
I believe that two of the joint motions to get the position are
1) lumbar lateral flexion or simply bending the spine to the side.
2) Scapular upward rotation

Pictures for lumbar lateral flexion or spine lateral flexion
https://www.google.com/search?q=spine+lateral+flexion+pictures&client=firefox-a&hs=tQk&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=K87pUqqJFJSrsQSCzYGAAQ&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1244&bih=758
This is a bending to the side as in several of the first pictures. Some of us may be limited in using this bending due to the flexibility of our spines.

Pictures for scapular upward rotation
https://www.google.com/search?q=scapular+upward+rotation+pictures&client=firefox-a&hs=ajP&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=r83pUvSYHdLjsATon4HYDw&ved=0CCcQsAQ&biw=1244&bih=758

Try these two in front of a mirror.

Say Chi Sin Lo
01-29-2014, 08:14 PM
Your opponent grunts like Nadal -- do you think he's playing head games since you obviously model your game after Fed? Does he take MTO's before your service games too?

I think you should show some respect, especially when you don't know my friend who I was practicing against.

He grunts, against everyone, all the time, at every shot. Don't speak on what you don't know.

Spin Doctor
01-29-2014, 08:39 PM
I was joking. ****, you're uptight.

Sanchez75706
01-29-2014, 08:41 PM
I don't think he was being disrespectful, sounded more like a joke to me.
The grunting was a little excessive, I mean grunting on a moon ball... lol but i know plenty of people that do this thats a whole different thread though.
Other than that good playing by both you guys.

Say Chi Sin Lo
01-29-2014, 08:46 PM
I was joking. ****, you're uptight.

Cool, I'll wait for your response when I start talking s*** about your friends.

Spin Doctor
01-29-2014, 08:47 PM
Of course it was a joke. How could it be taken any other way?

Not only that, but I compare him to Fed and his friend to Nadal and he's insulted. Wow.

Spin Doctor
01-29-2014, 08:49 PM
Cool, I'll wait for your response when I start talking s*** about your friends.

Actually at this point, I'm just talking **** about YOU.

Say Chi Sin Lo
01-29-2014, 08:50 PM
Actually at this point, I'm just talking **** about YOU.

Awwww, someone didn't like what he heard? (or in this case, read?)

Proper TT etiquette being demonstrated here. Diss someone (or in this case, friend of someone which the poster don't even know), and then pretend like nothing happened.

LeeD
01-30-2014, 12:20 PM
Back to LeeD. SayChi, I did comment some on this tread, about you.
Holmgren is 1/2 year ahead of me, was 6'4" and 225 as a Junior. GilHaskell was one of the varsity guards. VicRowen my alternate TE, but we often lined up in 2TE formation. Those guys went with Mike to GB, now coaching at different cities.
Notice Luck's foreward movment. Do any javelin throwers run forwards like that? N O P E. They run facing forwards, then upon achieving controlled max speed, turn sideways for the final 3 steps, then toss.
Did you happen to notice that Luck was throwing to a wideout? So, possibly ACCURACY is needed, and set up at the 30, did he actually try to throw it far, or did he try to connect with that bad hand's reciever?
I claimed 129.4 when I was 29 years old. I'm now 64.
Get your facts straight, then you can diss me.