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pvaudio
10-03-2011, 08:59 PM
Have been tweaking it constantly to make it effective ever with my garbage shoulder. This is the end of the effors as I am no longer going to be modifying anything. Simply repetition at the point. Therefore, I decided to show what it's culminated to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VSAX_msZVc

Not planning on changing much, but comments are quite welcome! :)

BaboFan
10-03-2011, 09:09 PM
I think you should do a video with first serve, second serve sequence. This way we can truly help. You have a powerful serve but that's all I can say. A tripod behind you will help tremendously so we can see spin and such.

pvaudio
10-03-2011, 10:42 PM
I can see you're new :) I've had threads about me serving for years now. My second serve had never changed. The issue was/is that I tore my rotator cuff years back and have had to work around it. People started giving suggestions, but in the end, I just took all of the ones I could implement and stuck with them. What you see there is effectively the conclusion to that thread. :)

BaboFan
10-03-2011, 11:01 PM
Well i wouldnt say I'm that new...Haha but I haven't seen you play much. I'm sure that serve is good for a match. Its good for some free points.
forgive me if I sound like I'm clueless

pvaudio
10-03-2011, 11:50 PM
Yeah thats always been the idea: consistent and force some errors if not free points ;)

Fed Kennedy
10-04-2011, 01:52 AM
It looks really nice, whats the mph on those

pvaudio
10-04-2011, 08:31 AM
Not sure anymore, guesses? I actually couldn't care less, but I do know that when I was serving flat a few years ago with a worse motion, I had it on the clock in the high teens (on-court serve competition thing at the Indy tournament). Now though, I don't think numbers are important as long as it's effective. :)

BaboFan
10-04-2011, 08:33 AM
Not sure anymore, guesses? I actually couldn't care less, but I do know that when I was serving flat a few years ago with a worse motion, I had it on the clock in the high teens (on-court serve competition thing at the Indy tournament). Now though, I don't think numbers are important as long as it's effective. :)

Good idea I know a little boy who's top 50 in the us with no serve as a weapon. Maybe you can go farther BC your serve is a weapon. The boy is only 5'3 so I can see why he can't serve very well but his baseline game is great. Lose one thing you gain I'm another.

Limpinhitter
10-04-2011, 08:45 AM
Have been tweaking it constantly to make it effective ever with my garbage shoulder. This is the end of the effors as I am no longer going to be modifying anything. Simply repetition at the point. Therefore, I decided to show what it's culminated to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VSAX_msZVc

Not planning on changing much, but comments are quite welcome! :)

Not bad. Your timing and tempo are very good. But, you are hitting almost exclusively with your arm and using virtually no upper body rotation or weight transfer -no "turn and tilt." You are leaning in with your upper body (blowing your wad so to speak), before you start your upward swing. As a result, you have to swing very hard with your arm to get power and spin. I call it Jimmy Connors syndrome. Not only are you leaving a lot of potential power and spin on the table, you are not going to be able to maintain that kind of arm swing throughout a long match without getting tired, losing a bit of form and making errors.

My advice would be to add two techniques ("turn and tilt") to your serve:

(1) when you toss the ball, turn your back to the target enough that if your name was written across your shoulder blades your opponent could read it, and (2) tilt your spine angle back (using knee bend, not arching your back), so that your left hip is pointing about half way between the target and the left net post. The result is that your upper body rotates around your spine which is angled back. That way, when you start your upward swing, not only will you have the racquet speed created by your arm, you'll have the mass of your upper body rotation to enhance your power and spin. Every great server uses a tremendous amount of turn and tilt in their service motion, no one more than Pete Sampras.

All the best!

PS: Some examples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6E3vPigzxI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhrfqjokS_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKp9rHytS1I&NR=1&feature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a56pvP1i6x8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QfpOnxT3kw&feature=related

pvaudio
10-04-2011, 09:34 AM
Much appreciated! :)

LeeD
10-04-2011, 12:37 PM
You have a decent enough serve for your level (4.4.5+), so maybe it's better to work on the overall game and worry less about your serve.
You put plenty of top/side spin on all your serves so it won't be attacked at your level if you place it well.
You won't scare anyone with any of your serves, as might MofPrecision....at your level.
A huge serve is nice, but a PART of the overall game.

rdis10093
10-04-2011, 12:58 PM
It looks pretty good to me. I remember the Indy tournament though; I also did the speed gun thing. First time I did it, I used crapy junior racquet, and was serving into the sun because I am left handed. Next year when I went I brought my own racquet, o3 white, and made them switch the speed gun on the other side of the court so I could serve without the sun in my eyes. I got all the way up to 96 mph. I miss the tournament though, they should not have gotten rid of it. Anyway, serve looks sick, and the pace would give me trouble.

LeeD
10-04-2011, 01:02 PM
I suspect Pvaudio is at least a 4-5 level player, and as such, almost any serve he does would bother a lesser player.
However, it's average for his level of play.

rdis10093
10-04-2011, 01:12 PM
dude, I have played him.

rdis10093
10-04-2011, 01:13 PM
I don't consider myself a lesser player

dozu
10-04-2011, 01:34 PM
maybe some match play / point play vids will be nice... serve is pretty darn good, but I am guessing OP has other lower hanging fruits to pick to shore up the overall game.

I also agree that serve speed is just a minor component of the whole thing... I would rather face somebody who can serve 120+ but without much variation, than somebody who serves 100 but can throw all kinds of curve balls into all the corners :)

zapvor
10-04-2011, 01:35 PM
Have been tweaking it constantly to make it effective ever with my garbage shoulder. This is the end of the effors as I am no longer going to be modifying anything. Simply repetition at the point. Therefore, I decided to show what it's culminated to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VSAX_msZVc

Not planning on changing much, but comments are quite welcome! :)

yea man i remmeber seeing your serves before. good stuff. ever going to post some points?

pvaudio
10-04-2011, 02:15 PM
Yeah LeeD, I string for rdis10093 and have hit with him quite some time ago :).

pvaudio
10-04-2011, 02:15 PM
yea man i remmeber seeing your serves before. good stuff. ever going to post some points?Points? Not sure what you mean. Pointers?

zapvor
10-04-2011, 02:17 PM
Points? Not sure what you mean. Pointers?

you playing out some points.

gregor.b
10-04-2011, 02:24 PM
Mate,except for the slight lack of weight transference,it is a pretty nice motion.Nothing can really go wrong,because it is simple,relaxed and fluid.Nice one.

nabrug
10-04-2011, 04:09 PM
Have been tweaking it constantly to make it effective ever with my garbage shoulder. This is the end of the effors as I am no longer going to be modifying anything. Simply repetition at the point. Therefore, I decided to show what it's culminated to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VSAX_msZVc

Not planning on changing much, but comments are quite welcome! :)

Last time I told you to focus mainly on the arm and racket action. I don't know if you did but your arm and racket action is in this video producing flat service strokes now. That is an achievement!

The emphasis is not where it should be. It has to move to the last part of the arm and racket action. Look at pro serves. So you don't have to change big things any more but you can start to develop the motion you already have. When you get the emphasis right of the arm and racket action your preparation phase will show more the characteristics of the pros.

athleticstennis
10-04-2011, 04:10 PM
I like the serve! As mikeler said somewhere, it has a little bit of a pause but I don't see it any wrong. It has a slick and troublesome slice at a good pace similar to Nadal serve.

pvaudio
10-04-2011, 06:16 PM
Thanks for the comments guys, I'll be doing baby steps now that I've found my platform :)

Bergboy123
10-04-2011, 07:36 PM
Babolot shoes? :D

pvaudio
10-04-2011, 09:33 PM
Yessah! Propulse II. I had the 3s and as you can see in another video, the sole came off on a running forehand :mad:

spacediver
10-04-2011, 11:13 PM
Not bad. Your timing and tempo are very good. But, you are hitting almost exclusively with your arm and using virtually no upper body rotation or weight transfer -no "turn and tilt." You are leaning in with your upper body (blowing your wad so to speak), before you start your upward swing.

I'm not sure I see this in his serve at all. He seems to be using his kinetic chain really well. The racquet drop (backswing) occurs during the proper phase (during the extension of the knees), and the upswing is a natural consequence of the momentum being channeled through the torso. I see plenty of rotation - his hips go from closed to open, his chest angle is nice and titled up to the sky, and he thus gets the proper upper body rotation on the tilted spinal axis instead of the "cartwheel". Not saying everything is necessarily perfect and can't be improved...

perhaps I don't follow what you mean by the premature leaning in with the body.

pvaudio
10-05-2011, 07:14 AM
Went and practiced more last night, and the keys are definitely focusing on getting the arm earthworm loose, more knee bend than I think is necessary (because that equates just the right amount), and getting the toss out there. Just a journey! :)

6-2/6-4/6-0
10-05-2011, 07:47 AM
I find that a great indicator of serve efficacy is the knee bend, using your legs to launch your full body weight into the serve makes such a difference. Sure, you can try to muscle the ball with arm speed and strength, but more pace, spin and consistency come from building your serve off the legs in my experience (also, fewer shoulder surgeries).

netguy
10-05-2011, 08:30 AM
Too much ankle bending. Because of that, you are standing almost on your toes. Give yourself more sole surface to stand on, root to the ground and improve your balance. By doing so, you should be moving your hips forwad into the court at impact. Good luck!

Limpinhitter
10-05-2011, 09:18 AM
I'm not sure I see this in his serve at all. He seems to be using his kinetic chain really well. The racquet drop (backswing) occurs during the proper phase (during the extension of the knees), and the upswing is a natural consequence of the momentum being channeled through the torso. I see plenty of rotation - his hips go from closed to open, his chest angle is nice and titled up to the sky, and he thus gets the proper upper body rotation on the tilted spinal axis instead of the "cartwheel". Not saying everything is necessarily perfect and can't be improved...

perhaps I don't follow what you mean by the premature leaning in with the body.

I'm not sure why you quoted only part of only the first paragraph of my post. The rest of my post explains what I'm talking about in detail. I also posted some video clips demonstrating what I'm talking about.

I couldn't disagree with you more concerning your description of his serve. It's not a bad serve. But, it could be a lot better. IMO, pvaudio's serve suffers from what I've coined as "Jimmy Connors syndrome," lacking in shoulder turn and tilt, and therefore, lacking in upper body rotation. He compensates by over swinging with his arm, which I explain is, IMO, not sustainable in a long match.

By leaning in, I mean he transfers his weight before he begins his upward swing, and therefore, there is no weight transfer available at the time of contact.

netguy
10-05-2011, 09:43 AM
"By leaning in, I mean he transfers his weight before he begins his upward swing, and therefore, there is no weight transfer available at the time of contact."
I can't be more in agreement with this. When you stand on your toes, you don't give yourself enough surface to move forward or transfer your weight, as Limpinhitter said...By giving yourself more sole surface to stand on, you'll be able to transfer your weight and as a result, your hips wil move forward too.

rjw
10-05-2011, 10:06 AM
Points? Not sure what you mean. Pointers?

Off topic...While looking at your video, I noticed that you also have a vid on serving with BM 17g. How did you like it, what tension, stick etc. or is there a thread here with your findings

thx

6-2/6-4/6-0
10-05-2011, 11:22 AM
"By leaning in, I mean he transfers his weight before he begins his upward swing, and therefore, there is no weight transfer available at the time of contact."
I can't be more in agreement with this. When you stand on your toes, you don't give yourself enough surface to move forward or transfer your weight, as Limpinhitter said...By giving yourself more sole surface to stand on, you'll be able to transfer your weight and as a result, your hips wil move forward too.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding this properly or not.

What I see from his serve is that he is rolling onto his toes too early. To get a good, deep knee bend it might be better to keep more weight back on his feet and to drive through to his toes as he springs up from the knee bend. If that is what you are saying I would agree.

If you're saying that he should keep more of his sole on the ground through the serve, I am perplexed as to how to move his momentum up and through the ball?

netguy
10-05-2011, 12:00 PM
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this properly or not.

What I see from his serve is that he is rolling onto his toes too early. To get a good, deep knee bend it might be better to keep more weight back on his feet and to drive through to his toes as he springs up from the knee bend. If that is what you are saying I would agree.

If you're saying that he should keep more of his sole on the ground through the serve, I am perplexed as to how to move his momentum up and through the ball?

I was talking about the set position, just before he begins his upward swing as limpinhitter said.

pvaudio
10-05-2011, 12:04 PM
Off topic...While looking at your video, I noticed that you also have a vid on serving with BM 17g. How did you like it, what tension, stick etc. or is there a thread here with your findings

thx

Here:
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=5745888&postcount=941

For my other reviews:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=357999

That list is not nearly up to date. :)


You can actually see the difference in serves between the BM17 vid and the new motion I've got. This one is simpler, more efficient and generates better accuracy. It just needs practice :)

Limpinhitter
10-05-2011, 12:15 PM
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this properly or not.

What I see from his serve is that he is rolling onto his toes too early. To get a good, deep knee bend it might be better to keep more weight back on his feet and to drive through to his toes as he springs up from the knee bend. If that is what you are saying I would agree.

If you're saying that he should keep more of his sole on the ground through the serve, I am perplexed as to how to move his momentum up and through the ball?

By leaning in, I meant that Pvaudio is transferring his weight prematurely - before he begins his upward swing. He is also not sufficiently turning and tilting his upper body and, therefore, has little if any upper body rotation.

At the peak of the toss (aka the trophy pose), the shoulders should be turned away from the target and tilted with one shoulder high above the other (compare Jimmy Connors and Maria Sharapova), the leading hip should be pointing at about 1:30, and the upper body should tilt back in the opposite direction from the hip so that the upward swing, upper body rotation and weight transfer occur at the same time. If UBR and weight transfer don't occur at the same time as the upward swing, then they cannot contribute to the added power associated with the transfer of the mass of the upper body in to the shot.

Having said that, I didn't say that the feet should be flat on the ground at the peak of the toss. IMO, that would be impossible. In order to tilt your spine back, you have to bend your knees which requires you to be on your toes. It is impossible to be in a correct trophy pose and keep your heels on the ground.

pvaudio
10-05-2011, 12:52 PM
The shoulder tilt has been an issue literally for years now, and unfortunately I've given up on it. Every time I try to force it, something throws something off which flares up my shoulder (torn rotator cuff from years back). So, I am not going to bother with that any more. What I will do, however, is the next time I serve I'll take a full side view, rear view and opponent view so that I can see the pace coming "at me". :)

mikeler
10-05-2011, 01:15 PM
The shoulder tilt has been an issue literally for years now, and unfortunately I've given up on it. Every time I try to force it, something throws something off which flares up my shoulder (torn rotator cuff from years back). So, I am not going to bother with that any more. What I will do, however, is the next time I serve I'll take a full side view, rear view and opponent view so that I can see the pace coming "at me". :)


Your motion and serve look pretty good now. If it works for your shoulder, then I definitely would not change it.

spacediver
10-05-2011, 03:36 PM
By leaning in, I meant that Pvaudio is transferring his weight prematurely - before he begins his upward swing. He is also not sufficiently turning and tilting his upper body and, therefore, has little if any upper body rotation.

At the peak of the toss (aka the trophy pose), the shoulders should be turned away from the target and tilted with one shoulder high above the other (compare Jimmy Connors and Maria Sharapova), the leading hip should be pointing at about 1:30, and the upper body should tilt back in the opposite direction from the hip so that the upward swing, upper body rotation and weight transfer occur at the same time. If UBR and weight transfer don't occur at the same time as the upward swing, then they cannot contribute to the added power associated with the transfer of the mass of the upper body in to the shot.




Here is a comparison of fed and pvaudio. Note that fed is serving to the ad court, unlike pv audio, so take that into consideration when analyzing body rotations.

Keep in mind that this was based on the last serve in pv audio's video - the one that he rendered in slow motion.

Can you describe the flaws you see with reference to the images below? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to learn. Count the frames from left to right and top to bottom, so for fed's serve it starts at frame 1, and ends at 12; for pvaudio starts at 1 and ends at 10.


http://i54.tinypic.com/2a6qgrd.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/2usztwi.jpg

Limpinhitter
10-05-2011, 03:44 PM
The shoulder tilt has been an issue literally for years now, and unfortunately I've given up on it. Every time I try to force it, something throws something off which flares up my shoulder (torn rotator cuff from years back). So, I am not going to bother with that any more. What I will do, however, is the next time I serve I'll take a full side view, rear view and opponent view so that I can see the pace coming "at me". :)

Wow! It's usually the other way around! Maria Sharapova is a prime example of shoulder injury caused by serving without tilting her shoulders. The reason is that when you stand straight and hold your arm stright up, the angle of your upper arm to your shoulder is at 90 degrees and you are putting maximum strain and impingement on the joint, bursa, and the stabilizer muscles and tendons (the rotator cuff). But, if you stand straight and the lean over to your left as far as you can and then raise your arm straight up, your upper arm is at nearly 0 degrees from your shoulder, about the same as holding your arm straight out from your side, creating minimum strain and impingement on the shoulder joint.

Having said that, even if you only increased your turn - getting your back more to the target in the windup, that would add a lot to your serve.

Limpinhitter
10-05-2011, 03:56 PM
Here is a comparison of fed and pvaudio. Note that fed is serving to the ad court, unlike pv audio, so take that into consideration when analyzing body rotations.

Keep in mind that this was based on the last serve in pv audio's video - the one that he rendered in slow motion.

Can you describe the flaws you see with reference to the images below? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to learn. Count the frames from left to right and top to bottom, so for fed's serve it starts at frame 1, and ends at 12; for pvaudio starts at 1 and ends at 10.


http://i54.tinypic.com/2a6qgrd.jpg

http://i54.tinypic.com/2usztwi.jpg

Sure! But first, understand that this picture of Fed's serve is a practice serve and he's not quite fully loading up the way he is when he's serving in earnest. Further, although Fed's serve is very efficient and his timing is flawless allowing him to get full benefit of the turn and tilt that he employs, Fed's turn and tilt is fairly modest compared to Sampras, Becker and some of the other all time great servers. (See the videos I posted links to in my first post).

OK, compare the 4th picture of Fed's serve with the 1st picture of Pvaudio's serve. Those pictures capture each server as close to the peak of their respective tosses among the pictures provided. Notice how much Fed's shoulders are tilted and how far his back is turned to the target. By comparison, Pvaudio's shoulders are practically level and his turn (from the perspective that I can see in the video provided), is minimal.

Next, look at Pvaudio's 2nd and 3rd pictures. His weight has transferred to his front foot before he has started his upward swing. At that point, he has no UBR or weight transfer available to him. By comparison, Fed's 6th picture is most equivalent to Pvaudio's 3rd picture and shows (although it's subtle because it's a practice swing), his weight is neutral because it is transferring as his swing progresses.

That's the gist of it.

pvaudio
10-05-2011, 05:29 PM
I see you guys are getting technical! But as mikeler said, since it keeps my arm safe, I'm not doing much else different. Just wanted to show you guys what your tips have accomplished (literally, all changes were due to your suggestions although I couldn't implement all of them). :)

Limpinhitter
10-05-2011, 05:32 PM
I see you guys are getting technical! But as mikeler said, since it keeps my arm safe, I'm not doing much else different. Just wanted to show you guys what your tips have accomplished (literally, all changes were due to your suggestions although I couldn't implement all of them). :)

Now you know what it feels like to be dissected like a lab rat. ;-)

pvaudio
10-05-2011, 06:58 PM
I'm a graduate engineering student. I'm very close to knowing! :)

Really though, you guys are too much. Thanks so much for helping me to get back to where I was, but sans injury. :) :) :)

limitup
10-05-2011, 08:25 PM
Looking at pic #6 of Federer, look at that racquet drop. Not bad for a practice serve. I wonder how much improvement us regular folk would see if we simply exercised and stretched our shoulders to have that kind of flexibility on our serves. I'd guess quite a bit!

Limpinhitter
10-05-2011, 08:56 PM
Looking at pic #6 of Federer, look at that racquet drop. Not bad for a practice serve. I wonder how much improvement us regular folk would see if we simply exercised and stretched our shoulders to have that kind of flexibility on our serves. I'd guess quite a bit!

I posted this link in another thread. Check out Pancho's serve at :26 seconds. Go through it a few times and freeze it at each stage of the serve from beginning to end of the motion to see what's really going on. This is the biggest racquet drop/forearm pronation combination I've ever seen. This is art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2rydnvswts

limitup
10-05-2011, 09:26 PM
How do you advance youtube videos frame by frame??

Limpinhitter
10-05-2011, 09:38 PM
How do you advance youtube videos frame by frame??

I wish you could. I was referring to the start/stop button. You have to go through the serve a few times to stop it at the strategic points that you really want to see.

pvaudio
10-05-2011, 11:59 PM
Wow, you know what's interesting? When I decided to change my motion, I modeled it on Federer's simplicity. Made it my own because of my injury, but nonetheless, I knew his simple form would yield consistent results. The fact that you're comparing mine to Federer means that I've at least met the goal of studying from the right professional for how I'm able to serve. :)

aimr75
10-06-2011, 04:53 AM
I wish you could. I was referring to the start/stop button. You have to go through the serve a few times to stop it at the strategic points that you really want to see.

you can download the vid using "keepvid" and use windows media classic player or similar to step through it frame by frame

mikeler
10-06-2011, 06:08 AM
Wow, you know what's interesting? When I decided to change my motion, I modeled it on Federer's simplicity. Made it my own because of my injury, but nonetheless, I knew his simple form would yield consistent results. The fact that you're comparing mine to Federer means that I've at least met the goal of studying from the right professional for how I'm able to serve. :)


That is a pretty cool side by side comparison. Good work Spacediver.

pvaudio
10-06-2011, 09:50 AM
It really is, I wouldn't have put that much effort into my own playing, let alone someone else's. Thanks man!

pvaudio
10-06-2011, 09:53 AM
I posted this link in another thread. Check out Pancho's serve at :26 seconds. Go through it a few times and freeze it at each stage of the serve from beginning to end of the motion to see what's really going on. This is the biggest racquet drop/forearm pronation combination I've ever seen. This is art.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2rydnvswtsMy God, especially given that racquet, that is quite possibly the best service form I've seen. His mechanics are absolutely SPOT on. People talk about a live arm? Yeah, that thing's being electrocuted!

Up&comer
10-06-2011, 12:07 PM
Looks good.

Like others have said, get a little more back bend and twist to add a few mphs on.

And please put the ball in your left pocket instead of switching the racket to your other hand, switch both, etc. Its so much easier.

pvaudio
10-06-2011, 01:45 PM
That, I definitely can't do! I've always had the extra ball in my right pocket. Just part of my routine. :)

Nellie
10-06-2011, 07:33 PM
I think that you are going to have to start all over and rebuild that serve from scratch ;-)

phnx90
10-06-2011, 07:38 PM
I still find it weird how when you first get leg bend, your knees bend outwards...looks a bit weird to say the least (but otherwise it's a great serve)

spacediver
10-06-2011, 10:03 PM
OK, compare the 4th picture of Fed's serve with the 1st picture of Pvaudio's serve. Those pictures capture each server as close to the peak of their respective tosses among the pictures provided. Notice how much Fed's shoulders are tilted and how far his back is turned to the target. By comparison, Pvaudio's shoulders are practically level and his turn (from the perspective that I can see in the video provided), is minimal.

Thanks - I see this now.



Next, look at Pvaudio's 2nd and 3rd pictures. His weight has transferred to his front foot before he has started his upward swing. At that point, he has no UBR or weight transfer available to him. By comparison, Fed's 6th picture is most equivalent to Pvaudio's 3rd picture and shows (although it's subtle because it's a practice swing), his weight is neutral because it is transferring as his swing progresses.

That's the gist of it.

To me, this looks like a case of insufficient coiling at the start, which means that by the time the upswing starts there isn't that much uncoiling left to do. But relative to his total coil, I don't think there is anything premature going on. In other words, it looks like the general dynamic structure of his motion is pretty sound, but he could use some more coiling along a couple of rotational axes.

spacediver
10-06-2011, 10:04 PM
How do you advance youtube videos frame by frame??

It was easy in this case because his last serve was recorded in frame by frame slow motion. So all I did was pause it at the relevant moments, print screen, past in windows paint. Then I used xnview to make a mosaic of images.