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dozu
10-06-2011, 05:48 PM
Definition -

Tennis - 4.5 and up
Golf - single digit handicap.

I chose the definition above, as these are around the levels where you can actually consider teaching others.... the average tennis teaching pro being around the 4.5s and in golf single digit handi means level3 certification for a assistant pro kind of position in a golf club.

Also, above these levels, physical ability becomes a limiting factor for a not-so-athletic person like myself.

It would take so much talent and work to achieve these levels, very difficult for those who don't do it full time..... I only know a couple of people... a friend of mine used to be a 4.5 and 8 handicap like decades ago... and a girl who's a 6.0 in tennis and now teaching golf full time in a local club.

fruitytennis1
10-06-2011, 05:51 PM
Definition -

Tennis - 4.5 and up

.

Pshh Dozu your not a 4.5 so you automatically fail






Sorry I just had to say that.
I honestly have no clue how good you are

Whats your legit handicap though?

dozu
10-06-2011, 05:59 PM
my golf game sucks... but am getting there... actually shot a 71 on my simulator the other day, but don't have time to play enough to have a handicap.... this year only played 9 holes, and that was when I was traveling in CT and didn't have the kids around.

I do sneak out to our local pitch and putt par-3 course for a few holes and can probably shoot even par there.

papa
10-06-2011, 06:25 PM
You know, I really like golf but I've gotten away from it over the past few years for several reasons. Just got a little tired waiting so much in playing a round. I was never that good but could shoot in the low 80's on a regular basis - few lower but you have to play a lot to get there, especially on the short game.

I only play a few times, maybe six or so, each year and find the consistency is really gone. I played with a former pro a week or two ago and held my own on many holes but in the end he was just too consistent. Actually, he was a teaching pro up until a few years ago and then took a job as a financial manager which I'm assuming pays a lot more.

JJK947
10-06-2011, 06:27 PM
my golf game sucks... but am getting there... actually shot a 71 on my simulator the other day, but don't have time to play enough to have a handicap.... this year only played 9 holes, and that was when I was traveling in CT and didn't have the kids around.

I do sneak out to our local pitch and putt par-3 course for a few holes and can probably shoot even par there.

That's not hard to believe, driving the ball consistently is the most difficult part of the game for most amateurs. I am a scratch golfer and have been getting paid to teach people for the last 3 years so I think I have reached the level you are talking about golf-wise.

As for tennis, I have played sparingly throughout my whole life but got a lot more into it recently in college as a couple of my roommates are 4.5 and over players. I have played a lot of 4.5 players and I can beat some of them. I feel like my athleticism and coordination from other sports helped me out a lot and made tennis a lot easier to get good at than golf.

rdis10093
10-06-2011, 06:28 PM
when I play golf, I always feel like it is bad for my tennis game. The follow through is different.

thug the bunny
10-06-2011, 06:35 PM
Fair boundaries. I find so many parallels between T and G. They are both ball striking sports where I find the more you can keep your head not necessarily totally still, but rather keep it 'in' the swing, the better your contact.

I used to be a 9 hcp in league play for a few year but now alas I don't play enough. Actually my ball striking is better these days due to maturity, but you need the reps to develop touch to get up and down and score well. As for tennis, I guess I'm a 4.0. I can rally and hit consistent hard TS FH and BHs, and have a decent variety of serves, but I don't know how I would hold up in league play.

NBM
10-06-2011, 07:10 PM
Playing lots of tennis really messes with your golf game. Unless <for example> you play tennis righty but golf lefty.
I play to a 3.7 handi right now and used to be 5.5 playing lots of real tourneys.
Golf does not mess up your tennis and i really dont consider it a sport...it;s more an activity/
I dont consider either of these accomplishments to be mastering.
Mojo

Maui19
10-07-2011, 03:47 AM
Golf has been my main sport, and I just took up tennis seriously a while back. I don't think a 4.5 in tennis compares to a "single digit" handicap in golf. There is a HUGE difference between a 9 handicap and a 1 handicap in golf. I would compare a 4.5 with someone who is <5 HC.

I used to play between 0-1, but now that I am playing so much tennis, I've ballooned to a 3 HC. I find that both games take a lot of time to improve, and right now my tennis is getting more time than my golf. I am at a 4.0 tennis level right now (senior), which isn't all the great IMO.

One of the things I like about tennis over golf is that golf takes forever to play a round, and in really hot weather that gets to be a grind. And golf is a much more difficult and cruel game than tennis. You've got to be a little twisted to love it. ;)

larry10s
10-07-2011, 05:05 AM
ivan lendl:)

Limpinhitter
10-07-2011, 05:22 AM
Definition -

Tennis - 4.5 and up
Golf - single digit handicap.

I chose the definition above, as these are around the levels where you can actually consider teaching others.... the average tennis teaching pro being around the 4.5s and in golf single digit handi means level3 certification for a assistant pro kind of position in a golf club.

Also, above these levels, physical ability becomes a limiting factor for a not-so-athletic person like myself.

It would take so much talent and work to achieve these levels, very difficult for those who don't do it full time..... I only know a couple of people... a friend of mine used to be a 4.5 and 8 handicap like decades ago... and a girl who's a 6.0 in tennis and now teaching golf full time in a local club.

Yeah right! In a bar, restaurant, internet, etc., everyone and their mother is a single digit handicap golfer. But, when you get them on the course, and money is on the line, you find out real quickly that what they really meant was single digit PER SIDE!

dozu
10-07-2011, 05:23 AM
Playing lots of tennis really messes with your golf game. Unless <for example> you play tennis righty but golf lefty.
I play to a 3.7 handi right now and used to be 5.5 playing lots of real tourneys.
Golf does not mess up your tennis and i really dont consider it a sport...it;s more an activity/
I dont consider either of these accomplishments to be mastering.
Mojo

3.7 and 5.5 - that's darn impressive.

'mastery' has all kinds of definitions... perhaps in your mind, only Scott Draper has mastery in both? Jim Courier/ Ivan Lendl would only be pseudo masters lol.

dozu
10-07-2011, 05:25 AM
Yeah right! In a bar, restaurant, internet, etc., everyone and their mother is a single digit handicap golfer. But, when you get them on the course, and money is on the line, you find out real quickly that what they really meant was single digit PER SIDE!

that's probably true :)

like everyone on craiglist is a 4.5, but when you put them on the court.. you know.... :)

dozu
10-07-2011, 05:30 AM
Golf has been my main sport, and I just took up tennis seriously a while back. I don't think a 4.5 in tennis compares to a "single digit" handicap in golf. There is a HUGE difference between a 9 handicap and a 1 handicap in golf. I would compare a 4.5 with someone who is <5 HC.

I used to play between 0-1, but now that I am playing so much tennis, I've ballooned to a 3 HC. I find that both games take a lot of time to improve, and right now my tennis is getting more time than my golf. I am at a 4.0 tennis level right now (senior), which isn't all the great IMO.

One of the things I like about tennis over golf is that golf takes forever to play a round, and in really hot weather that gets to be a grind. And golf is a much more difficult and cruel game than tennis. You've got to be a little twisted to love it. ;)

<5 HC! that's high standard.... the reason I equate 4.5s to single digs is..

http://www.usgtf.com/level3.html

2 day combined total of 166 gets you level III cert which is about an assistant pro in a golf shop.... 83/round, factoring in the handi calculation rule, that's about a 8-9 handi... am I missing something?

Datacipher
10-07-2011, 05:38 AM
There really is only ONE ONE ONE CORRECT answer:

Ellsworth Vines.

Enough said.

I'll give Scott Draper a modern-day honorable mention

Limpinhitter
10-07-2011, 06:11 AM
Golf has been my main sport, and I just took up tennis seriously a while back. I don't think a 4.5 in tennis compares to a "single digit" handicap in golf. There is a HUGE difference between a 9 handicap and a 1 handicap in golf. I would compare a 4.5 with someone who is <5 HC.

I used to play between 0-1, but now that I am playing so much tennis, I've ballooned to a 3 HC. I find that both games take a lot of time to improve, and right now my tennis is getting more time than my golf. I am at a 4.0 tennis level right now (senior), which isn't all the great IMO.

One of the things I like about tennis over golf is that golf takes forever to play a round, and in really hot weather that gets to be a grind. And golf is a much more difficult and cruel game than tennis. You've got to be a little twisted to love it. ;)

There's also a big difference between 7,000+ yard championship level course with protected greens, and an under 6,000 yard public course. With that in mind, I'd compare a scratch golfer on a championship level course the equivalent of a 6.5 level tennis player. A scratch golfer on a typical public course would be closer to a 5.5 level tennis player, IMO.

So, if you're talking about a 5 HC golfer on a typical public course, I'd equate that to about a 5.0 level player. A 5 HC golfer on a championship level course would be closer to a 6.0 level player.

dozu
10-07-2011, 06:23 AM
the hc calculation should factor in the slope/course rating

http://golf.about.com/cs/handicapping/a/howcalculated.htm

so only 10 best rounds out of 20 are used towards the calculation.... so the hc index looks a lot better than 'scoring average'

ahuimanu
10-07-2011, 11:34 AM
Definition -

Tennis - 4.5 and up
Golf - single digit handicap.

I chose the definition above, as these are around the levels where you can actually consider teaching others.... the average tennis teaching pro being around the 4.5s and in golf single digit handi means level3 certification for a assistant pro kind of position in a golf club.

Also, above these levels, physical ability becomes a limiting factor for a not-so-athletic person like myself.

It would take so much talent and work to achieve these levels, very difficult for those who don't do it full time..... I only know a couple of people... a friend of mine used to be a 4.5 and 8 handicap like decades ago... and a girl who's a 6.0 in tennis and now teaching golf full time in a local club.

Am at least a 4.5 player (these days) and was an 8 handicap back 15 years ago. However, I wouldn't go that far to say there was a "mastery" of either. I had to live and breathe both just to keep it together.

Quickly thinking this thru I believe it was primarily the early development of "hand to eye" coordination that's the common thread between both games. I spent a lotta time as a kid playing baseball which helped to develop the hand to eye coordination and use of the hands/wrist to "snap" thru the ball to generate power/spin/direction (tennis serve/drive off the tee are my strengths). Ben Hogan wrote his 5 fundamentals which if I recall correct conveys the notion that every golfer has the potential to shoot low scores...

http://www.amazon.com/Five-Lessons-Modern-Fundamentals-Golf/dp/0671612972

Maui19
10-07-2011, 05:36 PM
<5 HC! that's high standard.... the reason I equate 4.5s to single digs is..

http://www.usgtf.com/level3.html

2 day combined total of 166 gets you level III cert which is about an assistant pro in a golf shop.... 83/round, factoring in the handi calculation rule, that's about a 8-9 handi... am I missing something?

Yes, the playing requirements for level III certification are not very stringent. There are a lot of pros who aren't particularly good golfers.

vitas77remembered
10-10-2011, 10:43 AM
I'm a 4.5 and am now have a 6.6 index.

I agree that the golf index is much more difficult than the tennis index.

I don't have a problem between the two sports because they are so different. The swings are completely different.

Golf takes a long time but if you're fortunate to find a friend or two who are members of private courses, what a difference. Golf in less than 4 hours, walking too. One of life's treats.

That's the unfortunate thing about tennis, the courts are almost always the same (unless you can get clay or grass) although wind may be different.

Golf takes you from the Pacific Ocean (Pebble Beach) to the desert (Palm Springs, Las Vegas) to the humidity of the East Coast.

CoachingMastery
10-10-2011, 12:01 PM
As a professional tennis instructor and a single digit golfer (and having taught golf for a couple years in Arizona), let me add a couple things to this thread.

First off, if a tennis player is say a 5.0 or thereabouts, he or she has discovered the patterns of mastery that lead to that level. They not only recognized the importance of an Advanced Foundation, but also the processes of dedicated and deliberate practice, the development of stroke or grip patterns that are associated with skilled play, and an advanced understanding of strategy. (In golf, strategy may be everything from mentally focusing for each shot, course or hole management, and knowing percentages for each club in the bag for each shot and the options those bring.)

Thus, it is common in my experience to find that an advanced player in one sport often can be an advanced golfer. (Certainly many exceptions...just look at how bad Charles Barkley is at golf!)

In golf, to really advance and develop the kind of distance, control and aim associated with skilled golf usually relies on learning to make the uncomfortable comfortable. The overlapping or interlocking grip, the straight left arm (for righties), the development of swinging while maintaining balance are all usually very uncomfortable or foreign to most beginning golfers.

In tennis, we see the same things: those elements associated with skilled tennis: continental grip on serve and volleys, arm position and swing patterns, footwork and finishes, all are usually uncomfortable to most beginners.

(Which is why so many tennis pros avoid them and resort to teaching the more comfortable, less advanced grips and swings early on with the assumption that the player can later change...and that is not only usually wrong, but it should be saved for another discussion!)

There are many analogies between golf and tennis: the idea of spin; hook in golf similar to hitting a crosscourt topspin forhand; the slice similar to a slice in tennis or a little like hitting a volley with slice. The kinetic chain and manufacturing of power is similar too.

Here is my 8 year old daughter hitting a forehand in tennis after 6 months of learning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRRzZlrb0s8&feature=player_profilepage

And here she is at 12 hitting a golf ball after about a year of learning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQp1_Jv8xwo&feature=player_profilepage

The point here is she was taught an advanced foundation in both sports and developed her strokes very early on within a skilled foundation.

dozu
10-10-2011, 12:29 PM
^^ I am impressed!

CoachingMastery
10-10-2011, 12:48 PM
^^ I am impressed!

Thanks, Dozu! I'm, of course, pretty proud of her!

Caesar
10-10-2011, 03:35 PM
I would say becoming a single digit handicap in golf is a heck of a lot more difficult than becoming a 4.5 tennis player.

dozu
10-10-2011, 03:40 PM
I would say becoming a single digit handicap in golf is a heck of a lot more difficult than becoming a 4.5 tennis player.

not sure about 'lot more'... I think it's comparable between an assistant pro in a tennis club, and an assistant in a golf club.

there is more dependency on athleticism in tennis... but on the other hand there is more on technicals in golfs...

different people may find 1 or the other easier.

drummerdan
12-01-2011, 01:29 PM
I have been as high as a 5.0 in tennis and my best golf handicap was 3.1. I stopped playing tennis about 10 years ago to play golf exclusively (I've played both all my life) for a few years when I got to a 3.1. About 4 years ago, I started tennis back up again and have barely played golf since. However, I went out earlier this year and shot 81 after not playing for about a year. Golf will take over again when I get old(er) if/when my knees go out!

Limpinhitter
12-01-2011, 01:33 PM
I have been as high as a 5.0 in tennis and my best golf handicap was 3.1. I stopped playing tennis about 10 years ago to play golf exclusively (I've played both all my life) for a few years when I got to a 3.1. About 4 years ago, I started tennis back up again and have barely played golf since. However, I went out earlier this year and shot 81 after not playing for about a year. Golf will take over again when I get old(er) if/when my knees go out!

And, in addition to all that, you're a drummer! :mrgreen:

LeeD
12-01-2011, 02:07 PM
I suck compared to you guys.
Maybe 5.0 AT BEST back in '79, when I went to finals of two Q's and actually go 3 rounds in A/Opens. Now closer to 3.5 singles.
But golf alas, back to square one, 3 weeks ago 101 Oakland Metro .. :oops:

drummerdan
12-01-2011, 06:26 PM
And, in addition to all that, you're a drummer! :mrgreen:

Absolutely! Life is good...

mhj202
12-02-2011, 04:50 AM
I barely qualify on both fronts at this point: currently a weak 4.5 (was 5.0 in college) and 9 index in golf (lowest was 6.1).

On second thought, with a 9 GHIN index, I technically have a 10+ handicap on most courses so actually may not qualify.

In any case, I am far far away from "mastering" either...

NJ1
12-02-2011, 07:59 AM
Nope, I've mastered neither. A strong 5.0 in tennis, but can match 5.5s with no issue so that's maybe more my real level, so it is clearly my stronger sport of the two despite being a relative newcomer. I take regular individual lessons, practice and work on my fitness assiduously. I wish I'd got serious with this game earlier.

Golf, I've played for years but I'm a poor player, best round ever (that I've never come close to repeating) was an 86. I'd say my handicap is a 22, but it's a vague guess and may be higher given how infrequently I play. Just use the game as excuse for a day hanging out with a group of friends. I'm sure lessons would help but I'm not quite 30 so I'm going to hold off and hope tennis injuries don't start to mount and push me to a less sporting sport.

double barrels
12-02-2011, 09:58 AM
Playing lots of tennis really messes with your golf game. Unless <for example> you play tennis righty but golf lefty.
I play to a 3.7 handi right now and used to be 5.5 playing lots of real tourneys.
Golf does not mess up your tennis and i really dont consider it a sport...it;s more an activity/
I dont consider either of these accomplishments to be mastering.
Mojo

Couldn't agree more. I pretty much play tennis at a 5.0 level, handicap is about 12, and I play golf less times in a year than my handicap. I recently stopped growing and just got clubs that fit me, I don't see why I won't be a 8-10 handicap within a year, but that's not anywhere close to masterting level.

My little brother is a scratch golfer and a 3.5 athletic tennis player who never plays tennis. I could get him playing 4.5 tennis within months, and that wouldn't mess up his golf game. And either of those 2 accomplishments would not be consider mastering lol.

I would say the combination would have to be more like Mojo's close to scratch golf if not better, and a rating of 5.5 or better (unless the player is older, has like a 5.0 rating but has a serious tennis resume).

The Wreck
12-02-2011, 10:14 AM
I think it makes sense that for most people who play both sports, they achieve a higher level in tennis first. It's all about the time.

Even if you devote an equal amount of time to golf and tennis, your tennis practice time is going to be more effective. I can hit several hundred tennis balls in an hour. An hour of golf (playing a round), I may hit 20-30? And on the range it takes me a good hour to work through a bucket of 50 or so balls with deliberate practice.

In two sports where repetition is a major part of learning, it makes sense that you would be able to "master" tennis sooner.

sureshs
12-02-2011, 10:25 AM
As a professional tennis instructor and a single digit golfer (and having taught golf for a couple years in Arizona), let me add a couple things to this thread.

First off, if a tennis player is say a 5.0 or thereabouts, he or she has discovered the patterns of mastery that lead to that level. They not only recognized the importance of an Advanced Foundation, but also the processes of dedicated and deliberate practice, the development of stroke or grip patterns that are associated with skilled play, and an advanced understanding of strategy. (In golf, strategy may be everything from mentally focusing for each shot, course or hole management, and knowing percentages for each club in the bag for each shot and the options those bring.)

Thus, it is common in my experience to find that an advanced player in one sport often can be an advanced golfer. (Certainly many exceptions...just look at how bad Charles Barkley is at golf!)

In golf, to really advance and develop the kind of distance, control and aim associated with skilled golf usually relies on learning to make the uncomfortable comfortable. The overlapping or interlocking grip, the straight left arm (for righties), the development of swinging while maintaining balance are all usually very uncomfortable or foreign to most beginning golfers.

In tennis, we see the same things: those elements associated with skilled tennis: continental grip on serve and volleys, arm position and swing patterns, footwork and finishes, all are usually uncomfortable to most beginners.

(Which is why so many tennis pros avoid them and resort to teaching the more comfortable, less advanced grips and swings early on with the assumption that the player can later change...and that is not only usually wrong, but it should be saved for another discussion!)

There are many analogies between golf and tennis: the idea of spin; hook in golf similar to hitting a crosscourt topspin forhand; the slice similar to a slice in tennis or a little like hitting a volley with slice. The kinetic chain and manufacturing of power is similar too.

Here is my 8 year old daughter hitting a forehand in tennis after 6 months of learning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRRzZlrb0s8&feature=player_profilepage

And here she is at 12 hitting a golf ball after about a year of learning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQp1_Jv8xwo&feature=player_profilepage

The point here is she was taught an advanced foundation in both sports and developed her strokes very early on within a skilled foundation.

Why are you teaching her a 2 handed forehand?

Ash_Smith
12-02-2011, 10:49 AM
Mastered, not yet. Played to a 12 handicap when I was playing regularly, but haven't played for over a year :-( miss it a lot!

I wouldn't say I have mastered tennis either, but i'm pretty good!

Cheers

watungga
12-02-2011, 11:00 AM
During LA Olympics (1984) I mastered them both.

Gulp and tennis :)

Caesar
12-02-2011, 11:05 PM
By that definition, I've mastered both. But I wouldn't describe myself as having done so.

Playing off scratch is mastering golf. I'm not sure what I'd call mastering tennis, but it's a lot better than 4.5.