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View Full Version : Biomechanical explanation of why it is safer to hit crosscourt?


Clay lover
10-25-2011, 05:57 AM
Please excuse me if I sound ignorant but I don't know if it has been discussed before here. In addition to "having more court to work with", isn't it easier to line up your shoulders so they are in line with the crosscourt route compared to DTL? If you want to hit DTL, you have to rotate/adjust your feet all the way so your shoulder faces the DTL route.

This is especially significant if you are in a match and the ball is coming at you quick. Hitting crosscourt seems to be safer because it's requires a smaller rotation/ less adjustment of your feet, thus you have more time to prepare for the shot compared to when you hit DTL.

Am I right?

Limpinhitter
10-25-2011, 06:06 AM
No! Hitting cross court is more difficult for most players because you have to take the ball earlier to hit cross court giving you less time to set up and hit the ball. You have to rotate your upper body sooner and further to hit cross court.

Having said that, if you are near or behind the baseline, it is essential that you do hit cross court. In addition to being a higher percentage shot in terms of hitting over the low part of the net and having a longer court to work with, it is also the tactically correct shot in terms of court positioning. So, unless your opponent has slipped and fallen in the cross court corner, or has a glaring weakness on his other side, hit it cross court.

travlerajm
10-25-2011, 06:14 AM
Besides having slightly lower net and slightly longer court for corss-court, I think there is some extra error risk when you try to change direction of the ball (that is, hit down the line off an incoming cross-court shot). The higher the swingweight of your racquet, the easier it is to change direction accurately.

Alejandro Lanza
10-25-2011, 06:32 AM
Recently i heard Nadal say that Djokovic was doing two things very well, and that they were two hardest things to do in tennis. One of them was change direction. I can't recall what the other one was, maybe serve return.

Nellie
10-25-2011, 06:43 AM
I don't think that there is a biomechanical reason that crosscourt is easier than down-the-line.

When you hit cross court, you are hitting over the low point of the net, so you have more margin for error vertically, in addition to the horizontal margin for error (i.e., longer court distance), identified in by the OP.

Regarding changing direction, it is hard to do because people struggle to estimate the rebound angle (the path off the face the racquet is like a V.)

mxmx
10-25-2011, 06:54 AM
The angle you receive the ball, determines the safest angle you can hit it back. Receiving a paced serve from the duece side, will persentage wise, be returned safest in the same direction, ie, crosscourt. Receiving on the ad side, will be persentage wise be best to return cross court. Thus one can recover into the best possible positions your opponents can hit their strokes also. Always good to face the oncoming ball with your feet and split stepping.

So, a server knowing he has a good serve, can rush the net knowing that the returner will most likely hit cross court (because of persentages)...and in so doing, force the returner to go for the riskier shot down the line. A good returner, can risk down the line, or low at the feet of the net rusher, which is in my opinion, easier to do than to go down the line. A slow, short serve, opens up angles and one can return down the line or cross court.

The shorter the ball, the more angles are created. Having to hit the persentage shot cross court, becomes less and less needed.


In Doubles:
the best shot to go for and to cover for, is down the middle. Hitting any shot in the middle back of the court, limits the angles of the person receiving that ball.

defrule
10-25-2011, 08:55 AM
I have a question, suppose you are dragged out wide on you backhand wing and your opponent hasn't approached the net. Where is the best place to reply to?

I try to slice deep crosscourt back but because I'm a lefty this goes right into the person forehand and seems to give him the option to hit behind me as I recover.

Place it down the line is risky with the higher net and he can angle it away easily to the open court.

I'm starting to think replying deep to the centre T is the most neutralising response. Still not sure on things but it seems to limit their angles more.

sureshs
10-25-2011, 09:11 AM
Recently i heard Nadal say that Djokovic was doing two things very well, and that they were two hardest things to do in tennis. One of them was change direction. I can't recall what the other one was, maybe serve return.

His signature shot is the DTL BH

Limpinhitter
10-25-2011, 09:13 AM
I have a question, suppose you are dragged out wide on you backhand wing and your opponent hasn't approached the net. Where is the best place to reply to?

I try to slice deep crosscourt back but because I'm a lefty this goes right into the person forehand and seems to give him the option to hit behind me as I recover.

Place it down the line is risky with the higher net and he can angle it away easily to the open court.

I'm starting to think replying deep to the centre T is the most neutralising response. Still not sure on things but it seems to limit their angles more.

If you are pulled wide and are still behind the baseline, your target should be about 5 feet from the cross court corner. You don't have to recover back to the middle of the court. You only have to recover to the point where you have bisected your opponent's angles. That way, your opponent can't hit away from you. But, if you hit to the middle, you open yourself up for an inside out forehand or a semi cross court backhand. Either way, the ball is traveling away from you.

But, if you are pulled wide and short, you are in a bit of trouble. You probably have to end the point in one shot. If the ball is low (below the level of the net cord), then you can either try a sharp angle topspin winner, or a drop shot dtl that makes your opponent run from back corner to front corner. Smother the net to cut off anything he might hit back. If the ball is well above the net, a drop shot is out, but, you can still go for a sharp angled topspin winner, or a winner dtl.

fuzz nation
10-25-2011, 09:15 AM
I have a question, suppose you are dragged out wide on you backhand wing and your opponent hasn't approached the net. Where is the best place to reply to?

I try to slice deep crosscourt back but because I'm a lefty this goes right into the person forehand and seems to give him the option to hit behind me as I recover.

Place it down the line is risky with the higher net and he can angle it away easily to the open court.

I'm starting to think replying deep to the centre T is the most neutralising response. Still not sure on things but it seems to limit their angles more.

I'd say that you're probably onto something there. When your opponent is stuck in his/her end and right in the middle of the court, there's really no radical angle to hit at from there. The placement you're describing can indeed be neutralizing, especially when you don't have any initiative and need to recover back toward the center yourself.

Another great option when an opponent hits into an angle that pulls you out wide is to hit back into that same angle or even more - return the favor with interest. Jennifer Capriati really got my attention with this tactic during her comeback. She could instantly flip the switch from defense to offense in one shot using this idea.

As long as she could get to a wide ball and do something with it, Capriati loved to hit it back at an even sharper angle. Many times she'd catch an opponent recovering toward the middle and her ball would go behind them. Even if they could reel it in, there's not much you can do from that sort of situation. While the angle relative to the court itself is pretty large, remember that when you try to counter that wide-out with a wide ball of your own, you're not changing the direction of the ball too much. The bigger issue is getting it over the net and down inside the sideline.

Off The Wall
10-25-2011, 09:31 AM
Please excuse me if I sound ignorant but I don't know if it has been discussed before here. In addition to "having more court to work with", isn't it easier to line up your shoulders so they are in line with the crosscourt route compared to DTL? If you want to hit DTL, you have to rotate/adjust your feet all the way so your shoulder faces the DTL route.

This is especially significant if you are in a match and the ball is coming at you quick. Hitting crosscourt seems to be safer because it's requires a smaller rotation/ less adjustment of your feet, thus you have more time to prepare for the shot compared to when you hit DTL.

Am I right?

You can hit CC or DTL using any stance, closed thru open. You close your shoulders either way. (If you only hit DTL while aiming your feet that way, opponents would just go wait to return your shot from there.)

Don't worry about which is biomechanically easier. That's a red herring. CC will always be easier because as you said, more court; and as someone else said, lower net.

vitas77remembered
10-25-2011, 02:13 PM
CC is better because you are hitting a straight ball back straight (same direction it came from) whereas DTL is hitting a straight ball crooked, which takes more precision.

sureshs
10-25-2011, 02:26 PM
That is the conventional advice. Not sure how valid it is any more. I see pros go to the open court time after time. If the opponent hits CC from the deuce court, they will often go DTL to the ad court.

With topspin on the ball, case can be made both ways. It can be more difficult to control the ball DTL as it is spinning away, but on the other hand, it can be more difficult to reverse the spin and send it CC with sufficient power. Sometimes it is easier to "go with the spin" and send it DTL with a little power to control the spin, than to send it CC, and sometimes it is easier to reverse the spin and send it CC, than risk the ball flying away from the sidelines DTL.

Frankly, I think the pros go the open court as their main strategy. At the club level, running people around side to side is an easy way to extract UEs. When Pete was asked what his strategy was, he simply said: Hit where the other guy isn't.

Off The Wall
10-25-2011, 02:55 PM
I think we can throw out the pros. They can hit almost anywhere and keep it in.

For club players, conventional is still good for a safe play. Spin or no. Of course, if you're adept at DTL, go for it.

Xizel
10-25-2011, 03:23 PM
It's only safer in terms of error rates. It's not safer that you're hitting to the guy's forehand.

Off The Wall
10-25-2011, 03:39 PM
It's only safer in terms of error rates. It's not safer that you're hitting to the guy's forehand.

Excellent point to keep in mind.

mxmx
10-26-2011, 02:07 AM
That is the conventional advice. Not sure how valid it is any more. I see pros go to the open court time after time. If the opponent hits CC from the deuce court, they will often go DTL to the ad court.
.... When Pete was asked what his strategy was, he simply said: Hit where the other guy isn't.

This is why they are pro, and we are not. They could get this right more often than we could. I also see pro's hitting the persentage shot large persentages of the point....until the opponent hits a weaker shot...then they would have room to attack the open court more.

I find Pete's comment rather surprising. Sometimes you want to hit the ball hard toward the feet of your opponent. I know a player who is better on the move, than when hitting straight toward him, almost jamming him. Yes, sometimes you need to take initiative and go for the open court or DTL...but there is certainly good reason to hit the persentages.

mxmx
10-26-2011, 02:12 AM
It's only safer in terms of error rates. It's not safer that you're hitting to the guy's forehand.

To me, its more important hitting the right shot, as to going to their backhand or forehand per say. My forehand is my biggest weapon, but against this coach i know, he actually hits to my forhand more than to my backand, all for the sake of angles....opening up my backhand so to speak.

In defensive scenarios, i would rather hit a good shot cross court, even to my opponents forehand, than a riskier or weaker shot DTL on his backand. Sometimes its all about staying in the point and to neutralise your opponent until you have your chance to change the momentum to take control of the point.

sureshs
10-26-2011, 06:43 AM
It's only safer in terms of error rates. It's not safer that you're hitting to the guy's forehand.

Fantastic mathematical analysis. The supposedly higher probability of safety must be balanced against the opponent not required to move (if he is also standing CC) and getting the ball on his forehand.

sureshs
10-26-2011, 06:44 AM
I think we can throw out the pros. They can hit almost anywhere and keep it in.

For club players, conventional is still good for a safe play. Spin or no. Of course, if you're adept at DTL, go for it.

A "safer" DTL is also an option - with more net clearance.

Limpinhitter
10-26-2011, 07:21 AM
A "safer" DTL is also an option - with more net clearance.

I don't know what you mean by a "safer DTL" option. Hitting dtl from at, or behind, the baseline is a tactical error under most circumstances. In addition to being a tactical error, if you try to redirect a hard struck shot dtl, you have to compensate for the tendency of the ball to recochet off of your racquet, a difficult task even for pros. Nadal can pull it off on his forehand when he is on the run and way behind the baseline where the speed of the ball has decreased significantly. But, I've seen Nadal blow many backhands wide in to the doubles ally trying to redirect them dtl.

sureshs
10-26-2011, 08:39 AM
I don't know what you mean by a "safer DTL" option. Hitting dtl from at, or behind, the baseline is a tactical error under most circumstances. In addition to being a tactical error, if you try to redirect a hard struck shot dtl, you have to compensate for the tendency of the ball to recochet off of your racquet, a difficult task even for pros. Nadal can pull it off on his forehand when he is on the run and way behind the baseline where the speed of the ball has decreased significantly. But, I've seen Nadal blow many backhands wide in to the doubles ally trying to redirect them dtl.

I meant a slower and higher DTL ball whose goal is not to be a winner but to make the forehand CC guy run to his backhand side.

Limpinhitter
10-26-2011, 08:45 AM
I meant a slower and higher DTL ball whose goal is not to be a winner but to make the forehand CC guy run to his backhand side.

If you are hitting that shot from at or near the baseline, that is a tactical error.

arche3
10-26-2011, 01:24 PM
If you are hitting that shot from at or near the baseline, that is a tactical error.

Disagree. If you can make the shot its not an error. If I get a mid pace chest high ball cross court that bounces 2 feet inside the baseline I can hit it dtl 90% of the time without error with a lot of pace and spin deep. Which sets up hopefully a weaker shorter reply. To the middle of the court. That's the shot in looking for. I can then hit it off the court to his fh short angle . Or inside out back to his bh corner. I'm on attack then.

It's only a tactical error if you can't make the percentage.

Limpinhitter
10-26-2011, 01:40 PM
Disagree. If you can make the shot its not an error. If I get a mid pace chest high ball cross court that bounces 2 feet inside the baseline I can hit it dtl 90% of the time without error with a lot of pace and spin deep. Which sets up hopefully a weaker shorter reply. To the middle of the court. That's the shot in looking for. I can then hit it off the court to his fh short angle . Or inside out back to his bh corner. I'm on attack then.

It's only a tactical error if you can't make the percentage.

You're missing the point. There's a difference between a tactical error and an unforced error. Hitting dtl from near or behind the baseline is a tactical error whether you make the shot or not because, unless you hit a winner dtl, (which is a low percentage shot on top of a tactical error), you leave yourself out of position and exposed to a winner by your opponent cross court.

If you want to play winning tennis, then you hit cross court from at or behind the baseline and wait for your opponent to hit a weak shot, an UE or a tactical error of trying to go dtl, which you should respond to by going cross court to the other side.

Tennis is a percentage game. You give yourself the best chance to win by making high percentage plays. I love hitting cross court against an opponent who like to go dtl. First, it tells me he doesn't know how to play high percentage tennis. Second, he will run a lot further to catch up to my cross court balls than I will to run down his dtl balls.

sureshs
10-26-2011, 02:00 PM
Disagree. If you can make the shot its not an error. If I get a mid pace chest high ball cross court that bounces 2 feet inside the baseline I can hit it dtl 90% of the time without error with a lot of pace and spin deep. Which sets up hopefully a weaker shorter reply. To the middle of the court. That's the shot in looking for. I can then hit it off the court to his fh short angle . Or inside out back to his bh corner. I'm on attack then.

It's only a tactical error if you can't make the percentage.

That is exactly what I try to do. High deep ball DTL making the guy run to his BH and deal with the high ball and make a weak return or UE

Limpinhitter
10-26-2011, 02:03 PM
That is exactly what I try to do. High deep ball DTL making the guy run to his BH and deal with the high ball and make a weak return or UE

Ahh, I see! Sorry, I was referring to a slightly higher level of tennis. I love to knife high backhands cross court.

arche3
10-26-2011, 02:21 PM
You do realize when better players change direction its hit with a lot of pace and spin right? Good luck with your knife like slice lol. Maybe when your hacking away your opponents hit weak puff balls dtl. It's not a tactical error to hit dtl if it's a forcing shot in high level tennis. Do you even play anyone who can hit the ball?
Percentage tennis is dependent on the individual. Just because you can't hit dtl and change direction on mid paced balls doesn't mean I can't hit a winner or at the very least a forcing shot from it.

Ahh, I see! Sorry, I was referring to a slightly higher level of tennis. I love to knife high backhands cross court.

sureshs
10-26-2011, 02:41 PM
Ahh, I see! Sorry, I was referring to a slightly higher level of tennis. I love to knife high backhands cross court.

Wouldn't that be low level play? As in the ball is lower over the net.

olliess
10-26-2011, 03:04 PM
Just because you can't hit dtl and change direction on mid paced balls doesn't mean I can't hit a winner or at the very least a forcing shot from it.

You can consistently hit winners or forcing balls, DTL, off of deep, mid paced balls?

Does this mean your opponents have to hit winners or forcing balls to you on practically every shot, or else they lose the point?

arche3
10-26-2011, 03:18 PM
Obviously not everyone ball. But mid paced balls 2 feet into the court to my fh I am taking a crack at it Instead of going back cross court sometimes. It's called variety. If I know my opponent only hits cross court on a cross court shot I know I can cheat more on the crossxourt side and not run as much.
Variety and consistent play is how you win matches. Not some rules you read in a book.
I am good enough where if your hitting mid paced deep balls to me I will not miss very often. It just doesn't phase me. Add some pace and spin. Mix up your direction of shot and force me to an uncomfortable shot and that's how you win.

After a certain point players don't miss a lot unless forced.
Of course we all miss and have ue at times. It's tennis after all. If your always playing the percentage game and just doing that higher level guys will see it. And actually it's easy to play guys like that for me. I know where your always going to hit the ball.


You can consistently hit winners or forcing balls, DTL, off of deep, mid paced balls?

Does this mean your opponents have to hit winners or forcing balls to you on practically every shot, or else they lose the point?

Netzroller
10-26-2011, 03:29 PM
Please excuse me if I sound ignorant but I don't know if it has been discussed before here. In addition to "having more court to work with", isn't it easier to line up your shoulders so they are in line with the crosscourt route compared to DTL? If you want to hit DTL, you have to rotate/adjust your feet all the way so your shoulder faces the DTL route.

This is especially significant if you are in a match and the ball is coming at you quick. Hitting crosscourt seems to be safer because it's requires a smaller rotation/ less adjustment of your feet, thus you have more time to prepare for the shot compared to when you hit DTL.

Am I right?
I think there are five important general rules that determine how safe a shot is

1) crosscourt is safer than longline because the net is lower and the court longer (obvious)
2) inside groundstrokes are easier than outside groundstrokes (this is the biomechanical point you are talking about I think, however this is independend of it being crosscourt/longline)
3) It is easier to hit the ball back to where it came from than to change direction (I think this is because this way the reflected power and the power generated by oneself point in the same direction)
4) medium paced shots are safer than hard shots (obvious)
5) tospin shots are safer than flat shots (due to the trajectory)

Obviously the safest shot is not necessarily the best option. Furthermore each player might have certain preferences.

A while ago FYB made a few good videos where they talked about strategy, point construction and court positioning, see if you can find it.

Limpinhitter
10-26-2011, 06:02 PM
You do realize when better players change direction its hit with a lot of pace and spin right? Good luck with your knife like slice lol. Maybe when your hacking away your opponents hit weak puff balls dtl.

Hahaha! I've played some pretty good players in my time.

It's not a tactical error to hit dtl if it's a forcing shot in high level tennis.

Yes it is, if - as I explained - you are trying to redirect a cross court ball from at or behind the baseline. If you are taking a short or weak ball from well inside the baseline, the rules of high percentage tennis are different than when you take the ball from deep in your court.

Do you even play anyone who can hit the ball?

See above.

Percentage tennis is dependent on the individual. Just because you can't hit dtl and change direction on mid paced balls doesn't mean I can't hit a winner or at the very least a forcing shot from it.

Not it's not. Apparently, you don't know what high percentage tennis is. Once you reach a certain level, high percentage tennis is pretty much universal.

Limpinhitter
10-26-2011, 06:14 PM
Wouldn't that be low level play? As in the ball is lower over the net.

OK! I'll run with your little non sequitur!

In the example I'm referring to, if you hit a high deep ball down the line to my backhand from your baseline, I'm going to step in and hit it a shoulder height hard slice cross court. My target will be 5 feet from the corner. In order to get it that deep, even with underspin, I'll have to clear the net by about 2 1/2-3 feet because corner to corner is a long distance.

arche3
10-26-2011, 06:21 PM
So it's safe to say if I ever played a guy like you I can camp out cross court as long as I hit it deep to yu cross court.
And for the record I never said anything about changing direction on a ball from deep behind the baseline. I. Said. It's easy. For me to change direction on mid pace chest high balls that land 2 feet inside the court. Stop reading about tennis percentage play in books and actually play some decent players and you will know what I mean.
I understand perfectly what percentage play is. I have had pretty extensive coaching as a kid. All the way through college. And all my coaches preached percentage play but with the caveat that you have to have variety and make shots. Take some risk and not be predictable.
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[/B][/B][/B]Hahaha! I've played some pretty good players in my time.



Yes it is if - as I explained - you are trying to redirect a cross court ball from at or behind the baseline. If you are taking a short or weak ball from well inside the baseline, the rules of high percentage tennis are different than when you take the ball from deep in your court.



See above.



Not it's not. Apparently, you don't know what high percentage tennis is. Once you reach a certain level, high percentage tennis is pretty much universal.

dozu
10-26-2011, 07:46 PM
So it's safe to say if I ever played a guy like you I can camp out cross court as long as I hit it deep to yu cross court.
And for the record I never said anything about changing direction on a ball from deep behind the baseline. I. Said. It's easy. For me to change direction on mid pace chest high balls that land 2 feet inside the court. Stop reading about tennis percentage play in books and actually play some decent players and you will know what I mean.
I understand perfectly what percentage play is. I have had pretty extensive coaching as a kid. All the way through college. And all my coaches preached percentage play but with the caveat that you have to have variety and make shots. Take some risk and not be predictable.
[

[/B][/B][/B]

bro you are wasting your breath... this guy is a 3.0 old hack who thinks he has better slice than Fed.

btw, Hunter, I know it's true.

sureshs
10-27-2011, 06:32 AM
Lot of the pro cross court shots are not necessarily safer shots - they try to angle them sharply wide off the court

Power Player
10-27-2011, 06:50 AM
I have been trying to work the point more, and many times that means hitting back a deep crosscourt replay if pulled wide.

It works a lot because trying to go DTL when on the run and being pulled wide is very hard. I have pulled it off many many times, but it is lower %, and is easy to miss.

If you are getting CC shots, just hitting them back with the same angle will lower your mistakes. What happens with each stroke is that angles are created, and when you see an open lane with a bigger window, then you can change direction.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 06:56 AM
I have been trying to work the point more, and many times that means hitting back a deep crosscourt replay if pulled wide.

It works a lot because trying to go DTL when on the run and being pulled wide is very hard. I have pulled it off many many times, but it is lower %, and is easy to miss.

If you are getting CC shots, just hitting them back with the same angle will lower your mistakes. What happens with each stroke is that angles are created, and when you see an open lane with a bigger window, then you can change direction.

You sound like someone who has actually played a tennis match or three. It never ceases to amaze me how many decent players who can hit the ball don't understand basic, high percentage, singles tennis strategy.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 07:13 AM
Deleted for redundancy!

rkelley
10-27-2011, 08:25 AM
Throw me into the "it depends" camp.

Generally I agree with Limp about the safety and tactical soundness of going CC. It's bread and butter tennis. But there are circumstances where going DTL from behind the baseline and not going for a winner is good strategy.

First off if you're opponent is camping over in the CC corner your job gets harder. If he doesn't feel he has to cover the DTL shot then he's going to stand wider to the CC side. You have robbed yourself of making him move to get to your shot. Also, on bh to bh crosscourt, if your opponent is camping over on the CC side your CC shot has to be more extreme or you've just given your opponent an inside out forehand to hit. So, once in a while, you have to go DTL to make him cover the possibility and to make your CC shot more effective.

I'll go DTL often on my fh to get the ball over to my opponent's bh. Also if you're playing a lefty then the DTL bh goes to their bh. Regardless of the level of tennis you're playing at, hitting to your opponent's bh is almost always a good thing, even if they have a good bh.

There can also be some specialty cases. For instance if your playing a someone with a very Western fh and you have a decent bh slice, it can be interesting to feed him some sliced balls DTL-ish (your bh to their fh) to see if he can deal with them. Weak bh - then everything is going over there from my side.

So, IMO, Limp's general point is solid, but I disagree with making so absolute.

Rui
10-27-2011, 08:28 AM
You sound like someone who has actually played a tennis match or three. It never ceases to amaze me how many decent players who can hit the ball don't understand basic, high percentage, singles tennis strategy.

I think we understand. What we don't understand is hitting every forehand CC. That would include every forehand from the center hash mark to the forehand alley and beyond. All CC, all the time?

I assume you assess the percentages of other shots ... say passing shots. Always to one side, right? All serves directed to the weaker wing? All volleys down the middle?

dozu
10-27-2011, 08:38 AM
so you are a 4.5 player, just minding your own biz.... and a 3.0 hack comes up to you and start giving opinions about FH techniques, would you even keep the conversation going?

right, that is what's going on here in TT.

arche3
10-27-2011, 09:17 AM
so you are a 4.5 player, just minding your own biz.... and a 3.0 hack comes up to you and start giving opinions about FH techniques, would you even keep the conversation going?

right, that is what's going on here in TT.

I think LIMP is so afraid to miss a shot if he goes DTL changing direction that he only plays "percentage" tennis. As rkelley stated its not a bad thing to drill a shot to your opponents BH dtl to keep the guy honest. Oh wait? that is percentage tennis too right? As MOST players BH's are weaker than their FH's. But of course LIMP has a better slice than Federer apparently.... So it does not apply to him.

If I was playing LIMP I would not even bother recovering towards the middle of the court in a CC FH rally. Because he is unwilling to hit DTL unless he gets his short ball. Guess what? If I am going CC on my FH (my best shot) I am not hitting it short. More likely I am hitting more and more angle until your off the court and then I WILL hit it DTL for a clean winner. If my opp is pulled wide off the court on a CC FH rally and even if he hits it back deep I am going DTL to make him run and hit his BH. To see if he can do it. If he gets it back I am in control anyways.

arche3
10-27-2011, 09:18 AM
I think we understand. What we don't understand is hitting every forehand CC. That would include every forehand from the center hash mark to the forehand alley and beyond. All CC, all the time?

I assume you assess the percentages of other shots ... say passing shots. Always to one side, right? All serves directed to the weaker wing? All volleys down the middle?


waiting for LIMP to reply... :)

dozu
10-27-2011, 09:20 AM
and I am waiting to see another display of back-peddling.

rkelley
10-27-2011, 11:00 AM
. . . As rkelley stated its not a bad thing to drill a shot to your opponents BH dtl to keep the guy honest. . . . As MOST players BH's are weaker than their FH's. . . .

I'll hit that shot quite a bit actually. If he can't show me that he can hurt me with the CC bh reply, I'm going to keep pounding the guy's backhand and see if I can break it down.

Also going to his fh from your backhand DTL is important shot, though usually this would fall into the "keeping him honest" territory. My 15 year old son has spanked me a couple of times because I kept feeding him CC bhs. He started just standing in the alley and waiting for a bh that didn't get pulled as CC as it should have, and then he'd spank me with a fh winner DTL. My bh wasn't even weak, but he was just sitting there waiting for it. You've got to keep your opponent guessing a bit. If they never have to cover the DTL option then you substantially shrink the court that your opponent has to cover.

One other thing to remember with DTL shots is that while the shorter distance makes the shot riskier and you open up the court on the CC side, the shorter distance also means that you also don't need as much pace to make your opponent have to scamble to the ball. It cuts into their ability to rip a winner with the CC shot. The CC shot has to go further and gives you more time to run it down.

Again, I think Limp makes a good general point, but I would not make it a hard and fast rule.

olliess
10-27-2011, 11:06 AM
Again, I think Limp makes a good general point, but I would not make it a hard and fast rule.

I don't think he is saying it's a hard-and-fast rule. I think what he's saying is that most people severely overestimate their percentages hitting DTL in that position.

It follows that you need to have a good reason not to hit the high-percentage shot (other than: "I got bored with this cross-court rally that I was doing fine in.").

dozu
10-27-2011, 11:09 AM
at the rec level, 'percentage tennis' has something to do with directionals, but not as much as pounding on the swing flaws.

most rec players, even at levels as high as arche3, have visibly weaker BH than the FH.

in reality, there is only 1 situation I want to keep the FH CC rally going, and that is to set up the DTL to his BH.... and I will do this with maximum of 2 shots CC to his FH, to pull him just a tad wider with the 2nd one, then BAM, DTL it goes.

I may have never played USTA, but the true understanding of 'percentage tennis' is what gave me the 'community park king' status.

olliess
10-27-2011, 11:14 AM
at the rec level, 'percentage tennis' has something to do with directionals, but not as much as pounding on the swing flaws.

most rec players, even at levels as high as arche3, have visibly weaker BH than the FH.
And that would count as a pretty "good reason" to change directions and go DTL.

But even then, would you do it when you're pulled out wide on your backhand side, as one poster described, or even when you are given a solid, mid-paced rally ball that bounces 2 ft from the baseline? Wouldn't you be better off hitting it crosscourt one more time and waiting a little longer for the inevitable short ball?

dozu
10-27-2011, 11:23 AM
And that would count as a pretty "good reason" to change directions and go DTL.

But even then, would you do it when you're pulled out wide on your backhand side, as one poster described, or even when you are given a solid, mid-paced rally ball that bounces 2 ft from the baseline? Wouldn't you be better off hitting it crosscourt one more time and waiting a little longer for the inevitable short ball?

it's interesting that the OP of this thread didn't specify FH or BH, because that's a big difference.

if pulled wide on BH, then I say 10/10 times I try to get it deep CC, other wise i go DTL to his FH and he has time to set up, I have to get on the horse again to chase CC to my right.

but if pulled wide on FH, that's a different story, maybe 4/10 I will go CC, but I will try to make the angle even sharper to make him move, because if I don't make him move, he's gonna DTL to my BH with ease, resulting in winner, or a forcing approach shot that makes me hit a difficult pass.... 2/10 I will loop down the middle, trying to eliminate angles, and another 4/10 I will loop DTL, to give me some time to recover, and banking on that he won't punish me too hard with his BH.

it all depends.

rkelley
10-27-2011, 11:37 AM
at the rec level, 'percentage tennis' has something to do with directionals, but not as much as pounding on the swing flaws.

most rec players, even at levels as high as arche3, have visibly weaker BH than the FH.

in reality, there is only 1 situation I want to keep the FH CC rally going, and that is to set up the DTL to his BH.... and I will do this with maximum of 2 shots CC to his FH, to pull him just a tad wider with the 2nd one, then BAM, DTL it goes.

I may have never played USTA, but the true understanding of 'percentage tennis' is what gave me the 'community park king' status.

Percentage tennis is important for not handing out UFEs. Of course your ability to hit a lower percentage shot is part of this.

Another, more subtle reason for going fh to fh CC is a psychological one. If you think you can hang in a fh to fh war with your opponent, then you can go the Jimmy Connors route and hit to his strength. If you can win that battle a couple of times you can start to take a chunk out of his psychological armor. Make him feel like he can't win with his best shot and you have really hurt him.

arche3
10-27-2011, 11:54 AM
Good point. Personally if I am in a bh to bh cc I will go cc almost everytime. Because I need a really good reason to pull the trigger on dtl on my bh.
My fh is a different story. I am just making up excuses to pull the trigger and nail it. I will even hit it from beyond the doubles alley trying to curve it into the corner dtl.

So on a fh cc rally against limp if he always hits cc I will be unfazed. I can do that all day and blast the dtl more or less when I feel like it. I don't have to move to cover the dtl to my bh. I can cheat to my fh side and run less.

Conversely on a fh cc rally against dozu if on the 3rd ball he loops a high and deep dtl I am not happy. It means I need to run cross court and hit my weaker shot. And to be safe I need to go Cross court to his bh. But because the ball is deep and high I need to take it on the rise to at least take some time away from dozu. But if my reply is more towards the middle of the court dozu can step around on his now inside ball and hit a fh winner dtl to my fh side. A lot more issues with this scenario.

I'd take an opponent that I know plays percentages at all times any day. Over someone who varies strokes based on game play and strategy of gaining the upperhand.


it's interesting that the OP of this thread didn't specify FH or BH, because that's a big difference.

if pulled wide on BH, then I say 10/10 times I try to get it deep CC, other wise i go DTL to his FH and he has time to set up, I have to get on the horse again to chase CC to my right.

but if pulled wide on FH, that's a different story, maybe 4/10 I will go CC, but I will try to make the angle even sharper to make him move, because if I don't make him move, he's gonna DTL to my BH with ease, resulting in winner, or a forcing approach shot that makes me hit a difficult pass.... 2/10 I will loop down the middle, trying to eliminate angles, and another 4/10 I will loop DTL, to give me some time to recover, and banking on that he won't punish me too hard with his BH.

it all depends.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 12:04 PM
I think we understand. What we don't understand is hitting every forehand CC. That would include every forehand from the center hash mark to the forehand alley and beyond. All CC, all the time?

I assume you assess the percentages of other shots ... say passing shots. Always to one side, right? All serves directed to the weaker wing? All volleys down the middle?

I have no idea what you're talking about. I never said anything of the kind. And I don't know who this "we" is you're referring to. I've written about high percentage tennis many times on TT. I'm tired of repeating myself only to have the next batch of mindless ball bashers question the truth of rudimental singles tennis strategy.

dozu
10-27-2011, 12:06 PM
^ ha - backpeddling!

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 12:08 PM
Percentage tennis is important for not handing out UFEs. Of course your ability to hit a lower percentage shot is part of this.

Another, more subtle reason for going fh to fh CC is a psychological one. If you think you can hang in a fh to fh war with your opponent, then you can go the Jimmy Connors route and hit to his strength. If you can win that battle a couple of times you can start to take a chunk out of his psychological armor. Make him feel like he can't win with his best shot and you have really hurt him.

High percentage tennis is not just about UE's, it's about court positioning.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 12:10 PM
^ ha - backpeddling!

So, in addition to Dozu not knowing how to hit a forehand, and not being able to distinguish a forehand from a golf swing, it comes as no surprise that Dozu has no clue how to play a tennis match since he's never actually played a tennis match in his life.

dozu
10-27-2011, 12:21 PM
So, in addition to Dozu not knowing how to hit a forehand, and not being able to distinguish a forehand from a golf swing, it comes as no surprise that Dozu has no clue how to play a tennis match since he's never actually played a tennis match in his life.

Hunter - this is obviously personal attack.

are you gonna do something about it.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 12:24 PM
Hunter - this is obviously personal attack.

are you gonna do something about it.

Hahaha! The difference, Dozu, is that my comments are based on your admissions. You go around assigning ratings to yourself and others, and you've never played a match in your life. Then you put your ignorance on display for all to see when you confuse the fundimentals of addressing a golf ball and setting up for a forehand, and then advising someone to jump on his forehand when taking a low, hard, deep, penetrating ball.

Conversely, your comments about me are utterly uninformed and groundless. Futher, my comments are merely in defense of your uninformed, unqualified, groundless personal attacks against me who you know nothing about whatsoever.

skiracer55
10-27-2011, 12:37 PM
No! Hitting cross court is more difficult for most players because you have to take the ball earlier to hit cross court giving you less time to set up and hit the ball. You have to rotate your upper body sooner and further to hit cross court.

Having said that, if you are near or behind the baseline, it is essential that you do hit cross court. In addition to being a higher percentage shot in terms of hitting over the low part of the net and having a longer court to work with, it is also the tactically correct shot in terms of court positioning. So, unless your opponent has slipped and fallen in the cross court corner, or has a glaring weakness on his other side, hit it cross court.

...on this one, so back to square one, which was is cross court forehand easier or more difficult biomechanically than DTL? And I think, all other factors aside, what Limpinhitter says, above, is a good reason why cross court can be more difficult. I think he's also provided a good explanation of why...once again, all other things being equal...it's a higher percentage shot, namely that you're going over the low part of the net and you have more length to work with.

As he points out, playing percentage tennis is important, and the first dictum of percentage tennis is that it's less important that I do something wonderful with each an every shot than it is that I don't do something terminally stupid on each and every shot and make a lot of silly errors. So especially if I have a difficult shot to make, yeah, I'm probably going cross court so I can pass the problem back to the other guy and let him try to come up with something wonderful.

However, as we know in tennis, not everything else is equal, tennis is situational. Part of the discussion we got into had to do with Wardlaw's directionals, which doesn't so much say "always hit cross court" as it says "Don't change the direction of the ball unless you have a better idea and know you can pull it off." So if someone hits cross court to my forehand, one more good reason for me to return cross court, and same is true on the backhand.

However, as we've also discovered, maybe my opponent eats up cross court balls, and if you're playing somebody who can look beyond Wardlaw, there's a point at which maybe you need to change directions to break the point open and take control.

Back again to square one: Let's say that for you, a cross court forehand is currently difficult biomechanically for you..but you also realize, if for no other reason than you're probably not going to get anywhere by hitting DTL all the time, you need to be able to be able to confidently hit cross court. Answer: Go out and work on your cross court forehand!

dozu
10-27-2011, 12:41 PM
Hahaha! ....

more blah blah from the faceless.

how about this - since your only excuse is to keep your 'identity' confidential, how about posting a video of you hitting against wall, with you back to the camera... you can even wear a ski mask just to be extra safe.

I just need to see your world class FH and slice, and I will shut up.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 12:45 PM
I think LIMP is so afraid to miss a shot if he goes DTL changing direction that he only plays "percentage" tennis. As rkelley stated its not a bad thing to drill a shot to your opponents BH dtl to keep the guy honest. Oh wait? that is percentage tennis too right? As MOST players BH's are weaker than their FH's. But of course LIMP has a better slice than Federer apparently.... So it does not apply to him.

If I was playing LIMP I would not even bother recovering towards the middle of the court in a CC FH rally. Because he is unwilling to hit DTL unless he gets his short ball. Guess what? If I am going CC on my FH (my best shot) I am not hitting it short. More likely I am hitting more and more angle until your off the court and then I WILL hit it DTL for a clean winner. If my opp is pulled wide off the court on a CC FH rally and even if he hits it back deep I am going DTL to make him run and hit his BH. To see if he can do it. If he gets it back I am in control anyways.

You and others in this thread have jumped to a lot of unfounded conclusions that I can only infer is based on your lack of understanding of rudimental tennis tactics. Is it possible that someone who coached through juniors and college tennis was never taught basic tennis strategy.

Suffice it to say that there are rules, and there are exceptions to rules, and I tend to stick to the rules unless I have a good reason to deviate from them. I've already written about that many times, in this thread if I remember correctly. Anyway, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 12:47 PM
more blah blah from the faceless.

how about this - since your only excuse is to keep your 'identity' confidential, how about posting a video of you hitting against wall, with you back to the camera... you can even wear a ski mask just to be extra safe.

I just need to see your world class FH and slice, and I will shut up.

Dozu, don't make promises that you and I both know you can never keep.

dozu
10-27-2011, 12:54 PM
Dozu, don't make promises that you and I both know you can never keep.

you come up with your end of the deal, and I will stick to my end.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 12:57 PM
you come up with your end of the deal, and I will stick to my end.

Sorry! I have other interests that outweigh my interest in silencing Dozu, the TT mosquito.

dozu
10-27-2011, 01:00 PM
Sorry! I have other interests that outweigh my interest in silencing Dozu, the TT mosquito.

the only world class skill you have, is back pedaling.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 01:11 PM
the only world class skill you have, is back pedaling.

More unfounded, uninformed personal attacks from Dozu!

rkelley
10-27-2011, 01:28 PM
High percentage tennis is not just about UE's, it's about court positioning.

Hi Limp, I've written a couple of posts on this thread today. I don't believe I've made the argument that UFE's were the only consideration. I've discussed court positioning and its effect on shot choice as well.

Thanks.

arche3
10-27-2011, 03:55 PM
your statement was that going DTL on a ball near the baseline on a CC rally was and is ALWAYS a tactical error. I disagreed and told you why.

I was taught as a kid with drills and by example. I would hit with my coaches and teammates and my coaches showed me on the court what happens when I chose the wrong shot at the wrong time. We didn't sit around talking about it. I was shown irrefutable evidence on the tennis court.
For example. In juniors and college we drilled the change of direction relentlessly off of CC FH rallys. the goal was to know instinctively when you can make the shot offensively and go on the attack DTL. to gain the advantage. Conversely if staying in the CC FH rally how much of an angle you could hit into the service box and drive the ball off the court. It is always a balancing act of risk Vs. reward. The better players could pull the trigger DTL sooner on deeper balls, or hit the sharper angles CC.

As someone who claims to play very high level tennis you seem very ignorant of the actual games of high level tennis players. they are not thinking percentage and having to always hit cross court unless it is safe... The plan is to get the advantage given your level of risk tolerance and shot making ability. ALL the percentage play tactics are the basic building blocks of tennis. They are NOT hard rules or tactical absolutes like you did seem to imply.

You and others in this thread have jumped to a lot of unfounded conclusions that I can only infer is based on your lack of understanding of rudimental tennis tactics. Is it possible that someone who coached through juniors and college tennis was never taught basic tennis strategy.

Suffice it to say that there are rules, and there are exceptions to rules, and I tend to stick to the rules unless I have a good reason to deviate from them. I've already written about that many times, in this thread if I remember correctly. Anyway, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

eliza
10-27-2011, 04:34 PM
Hey, I am reading over b/c I could not sleep. Now I am laughing so hard I will not sleep for sure.....
You guys ARE something!!!
Wardlaw directionals. Google it.(this to the OP)
Love you all ;)

dozu
10-27-2011, 04:35 PM
what's so funny

eliza
10-27-2011, 04:43 PM
what's so funny

You guys getting all incensed!!! I do not know why you have to insult each other to get your points across.

dozu
10-27-2011, 04:49 PM
it's all about saving the kids.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 05:05 PM
...on this one, so back to square one, which was is cross court forehand easier or more difficult biomechanically than DTL? And I think, all other factors aside, what Limpinhitter says, above, is a good reason why cross court can be more difficult. I think he's also provided a good explanation of why...once again, all other things being equal...it's a higher percentage shot, namely that you're going over the low part of the net and you have more length to work with.

As he points out, playing percentage tennis is important, and the first dictum of percentage tennis is that it's less important that I do something wonderful with each an every shot than it is that I don't do something terminally stupid on each and every shot and make a lot of silly errors. So especially if I have a difficult shot to make, yeah, I'm probably going cross court so I can pass the problem back to the other guy and let him try to come up with something wonderful.

However, as we know in tennis, not everything else is equal, tennis is situational. Part of the discussion we got into had to do with Wardlaw's directionals, which doesn't so much say "always hit cross court" as it says "Don't change the direction of the ball unless you have a better idea and know you can pull it off." So if someone hits cross court to my forehand, one more good reason for me to return cross court, and same is true on the backhand.

However, as we've also discovered, maybe my opponent eats up cross court balls, and if you're playing somebody who can look beyond Wardlaw, there's a point at which maybe you need to change directions to break the point open and take control.

Back again to square one: Let's say that for you, a cross court forehand is currently difficult biomechanically for you..but you also realize, if for no other reason than you're probably not going to get anywhere by hitting DTL all the time, you need to be able to be able to confidently hit cross court. Answer: Go out and work on your cross court forehand!

Finally, a well reasoned post! As for Wardlaw's directionals, the tendency for a hard hit cross court shot to ricochet off of your racquet if you try to re-direct it dtl is one good reason to hit it cross court. The other is court positioning. Assuming that you don't hit a UE trying to redirect the ball, if you don't hit a winner (a low % shot), you've left yourself wide open to have the next shot hit cross court into your open court. That's just not smart tennis.

dozu
10-27-2011, 05:10 PM
the tendency for a hard hit cross court shot to ricochet off of your racquet

ricochet is what happens when you don't add grip pressure, Your Hackishness.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 05:21 PM
your statement was that going DTL on a ball near the baseline on a CC rally was and is ALWAYS a tactical error. I disagreed and told you why.

I was taught as a kid with drills and by example. I would hit with my coaches and teammates and my coaches showed me on the court what happens when I chose the wrong shot at the wrong time. We didn't sit around talking about it. I was shown irrefutable evidence on the tennis court.
For example. In juniors and college we drilled the change of direction relentlessly off of CC FH rallys. the goal was to know instinctively when you can make the shot offensively and go on the attack DTL. to gain the advantage. Conversely if staying in the CC FH rally how much of an angle you could hit into the service box and drive the ball off the court. It is always a balancing act of risk Vs. reward. The better players could pull the trigger DTL sooner on deeper balls, or hit the sharper angles CC.

As someone who claims to play very high level tennis you seem very ignorant of the actual games of high level tennis players. they are not thinking percentage and having to always hit cross court unless it is safe... The plan is to get the advantage given your level of risk tolerance and shot making ability. ALL the percentage play tactics are the basic building blocks of tennis. They are NOT hard rules or tactical absolutes like you did seem to imply.

Arche, until now I've given you the benefit of the doubt that you were in this discussion in good faith. But, it seems that I was wrong about you and that you are either an idiot, or just a liar. I never said "going DTL on a ball near the baseline on a CC rally was and is ALWAYS a tactical error." Never! That is purely your invention. To the contrary, when I did talk about the importance of hitting cross court, I also talked about the exceptions to that rule. Further, I never claimed to be any particular level of player. Never! I only said that I thought Suresh was talking about a higher level of player than someone who could not hit a high backhand cross court.

************************************************

To the OP, I hope that, if nothing else, you've gathered that hitting cross court may be more difficult that hitting down the line to the extent that you have less time because you have to and prepare earlier and hit the ball earlier to get the ball cross court than you do when hitting dtl. Nevertheless, it's essential that you learn to hit cross court as a primary shot because, from the backcourt, tennis is primarily a cross court game.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 05:22 PM
ricochet is what happens when you don't add grip pressure, Your Hackishness.

Once again, you publicly demonstrate that have no idea what you're talking about, your cluelessness!

rkelley
10-27-2011, 05:27 PM
ricochet is what happens when you don't add grip pressure, Your Hackishness.

In my experience, whether its ricochet or whatever, changing direction on a shot has risks. Going from CC to DTL is riskier than DTL to CC, again in my experience. I've hit with some good players. If you get enough pace on the ball they'll think twice about trying to take a CC ball DTL, even on the forehand side. It's not that they won't ever try, but the better the shot is that you hit, the more likely it is that they'll return CC and wait for something a bit easier to get aggressive with.

LeeD
10-27-2011, 05:34 PM
Unless you plan to rally from the baseline all day for ONE point, you're gonna sooner or later have to learn to change the direction of the ball by staying solid, in balance, and actively driving the ball (either slice or topspin, flat or sidespin) to your desired location.
The key to DJ''s success is the 2hbh DTL off a CC ball. It's the only option for ac lean winner, if he wants to end the rally.
Balance, posture, affirmative action.

Limpinhitter
10-27-2011, 06:14 PM
In my experience, whether its ricochet or whatever, changing direction on a shot has risks. Going from CC to DTL is riskier than DTL to CC, again in my experience. I've hit with some good players. If you get enough pace on the ball they'll think twice about trying to take a CC ball DTL, even on the forehand side. It's not that they won't ever try, but the better the shot is that you hit, the more likely it is that they'll return CC and wait for something a bit easier to get aggressive with.

Your experience is correct for specific reasons. The tendency of the ball to recochet off of the racquet increases with speed. I think that's pretty obvious. Wardlaw has described the specific instances when the recochet of the ball will adversely affect your shot when changing directions and when it won't as "inside strokes" and "outside strokes."

An example of an inside stroke would be if I hit a serve wide to your forehand in the deuce court and you returned the ball in to my body on the my backhand side. That is an inside stroke because the ball did not cross my body before I hit it. If I then change the direction of the ball by hitting my backhand cross court I am hitting in line with the ricochet, not against it. So, the ricochet will not affect the direction of the shot. That's a high percentage play in terms of court positioning and directionals.

An example of an outside stroke would be if I hit the same serve and you hit your forehand return cross court to my forehand side. That is an outside stroke because the ball crossed my body before I hit it. If the ball has any pace on it and I then try to change the direction of the ball by going dtl I am hitting against the ricochet which will tend to cause my dtl attempt to go wide, as well as leave me out of position and vulnerable to your cross court response if you get to the ball.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if your cross court return is a short and weak, then, depending on the height of the ball at the time of contact, I may go for a winner in the open court if it's a high sitter, or an approach shot dtl if it's below the net cord. The ricochet on a weak shot is not much of a factor. And, if I'm well inside the baseline at contact, you have less time to run down my winner attempt or approach shot.

Hope that helps.

HunterST
10-27-2011, 07:06 PM
bro you are wasting your breath... this guy is a 3.0 old hack who thinks he has better slice than Fed.

btw, Hunter, I know it's true.

Limp's right, you guys are wrong. It's the Wardlaw Directionals. The highest percentage shot when you receive a cross court shot is to send it back cross court. Taking a XC ball DTL from behind the baseline is a low percentage shot. Yes, there are times when you break the directionals, but overall, that's the percentage play. Geeze, this is basic stuff.

Hey Dozu, I have a couple of old serve videos. One from the back, one from the side. Just one serve each. I sent them to a pro for analysis.

You enter a tournament, I'll upload them.

arche3
10-28-2011, 02:22 AM
Post 23; If you are hitting that shot from at or near the baseline, that is a tactical error.

Also see your post 25 where you claim unless the dtl shot is an outright winner its also a tactical error.

I gave you at least a few examples why hitting dtl is a good idea. For one. Variety. For 2 its to the opponents weaker stroke. Others have said the same. You do not respond to those. You call me names because you are stuck on your belief. Again. It is a good idea to go dtl to your opponents at times even from the baseline and change direction because it is a good tactic. You also claimed that a high loopy shot to your bh you can easily slice cc and I happen to think it's a hard shot. Your running cross court to cover the dtl. Unless your very high level that shot is hard to make everytime.

Anyone who played a bit of tennis knows about wardlaw directional. Either by the name or practice. I am trying to impress upon you that those are not the absolutes of tennis. It's like your telling me I need to hold my racket or else it will fall. The nuances of the directionals is in shot making. The basis is percentage play but the reason for it is to train for making the winning shot. It teaches you when your particular stroke is able change direction through practice. You drill it to know when it's good for your personal game.
You called anyone who disagreed low level players who didn't agree with your post 23. Where in fact it is higher level players who can and break those rules often to make shot based on sound tactical reasons. The most obvious of which is your hitting to your opponents weaker bh. To see what he can do. To pound the backhand. This is basic as well. Your condescending attitude is just wrong. You are reading books about tennis and thinking you know it all but cannot and will not consider other options. So you resort to calling me an idiot. I gave you very specific examples stroke by stroke of my reasons to disagree with you. Yet you choose to ignore those but you call me names.
And for the record you have claimed you are a high level player or at the very least inferred it. I have not called you names. I think you owe me an apology.
Also I think it is an easier shot to hit cc. So I disagree with you there as well. I simply cannot believe you even play tennis if you have to think hitting a cc fh is harder than changing direction. That is only true in hacker tennis.


Arche, until now I've given you the benefit of the doubt that you were in this discussion in good faith. But, it seems that I was wrong about you and that you are either an idiot, or just a liar. I never said "going DTL on a ball near the baseline on a CC rally was and is ALWAYS a tactical error." Never! That is purely your invention. To the contrary, when I did talk about the importance of hitting cross court, I also talked about the exceptions to that rule. Further, I never claimed to be any particular level of player. Never! I only said that I thought Suresh was talking about a higher level of player than someone who could not hit a high backhand cross court.

************************************************

To the OP, I hope that, if nothing else, you've gathered that hitting cross court may be more difficult that hitting down the line to the extent that you have less time because you have to and prepare earlier and hit the ball earlier to get the ball cross court than you do when hitting dtl. Nevertheless, it's essential that you learn to hit cross court as a primary shot because, from the backcourt, tennis is primarily a cross court game.

dozu
10-28-2011, 04:00 AM
Hey Dozu, I have a couple of old serve videos. One from the back, one from the side. Just one serve each. I sent them to a pro for analysis.

You enter a tournament, I'll upload them.

just put'em up Hunter.... honestly, my impression of you is a hack (no offense, 99% people here are hacks, including the king) who at least has an open mind.

this Limp guy on the other hand, is just an older version of Sennoc, with his better-than-fed slice, and stuff like no-grip-pressure-increase FH and cc-always that indicate he has never hit against anybody who can put 4.0 pace/spin on the ball... yet he gives pages of 'advice' everyday.... so I was willing to lower the price for him, so that other beginners will not be harmed by those terrible 'advices'.

arche3
10-28-2011, 04:34 AM
See my reply to limp about what I think of directionals. It's not unbreakable. Yes we know about it...
Post the video btw. I don't think your a hack. If you and especially limp posts a video I will even break my no video rule and video and post actual game play.


Limp's right, you guys are wrong. It's the Wardlaw Directionals. The highest percentage shot when you receive a cross court shot is to send it back cross court. Taking a XC ball DTL from behind the baseline is a low percentage shot. Yes, there are times when you break the directionals, but overall, that's the percentage play. Geeze, this is basic stuff.

Hey Dozu, I have a couple of old serve videos. One from the back, one from the side. Just one serve each. I sent them to a pro for analysis.

You enter a tournament, I'll upload them.

mxmx
10-28-2011, 04:36 AM
I don't know what you mean by a "safer DTL" option. Hitting dtl from at, or behind, the baseline is a tactical error under most circumstances. In addition to being a tactical error, if you try to redirect a hard struck shot dtl, you have to compensate for the tendency of the ball to recochet off of your racquet, a difficult task even for pros. Nadal can pull it off on his forehand when he is on the run and way behind the baseline where the speed of the ball has decreased significantly. But, I've seen Nadal blow many backhands wide in to the doubles ally trying to redirect them dtl.

Yes...i agree...even hitting a looping, slower intentional controlled shot DTL will take some doing and cannot be considered a easy shot...The margin for error of where the ball is actually supposed to land, is far greater hitting a DTL shot instead of returning it from where it came from, in this case, cross court.

I think what should be an interesting discussion though, is receiving a DTL shot on the forehand side...one actually need to change direction to hit it cross court.
My opinion will be that one could return it "semi-DTL"...almost a compromise between CC and DTL...

eliza
10-28-2011, 04:44 AM
it's all about saving the kids.

50 and over?

mxmx
10-28-2011, 04:49 AM
I think LIMP is so afraid to miss a shot if he goes DTL changing direction that he only plays "percentage" tennis. As rkelley stated its not a bad thing to drill a shot to your opponents BH dtl to keep the guy honest. Oh wait? that is percentage tennis too right? As MOST players BH's are weaker than their FH's. But of course LIMP has a better slice than Federer apparently.... So it does not apply to him.

If I was playing LIMP I would not even bother recovering towards the middle of the court in a CC FH rally. Because he is unwilling to hit DTL unless he gets his short ball. Guess what? If I am going CC on my FH (my best shot) I am not hitting it short. More likely I am hitting more and more angle until your off the court and then I WILL hit it DTL for a clean winner. If my opp is pulled wide off the court on a CC FH rally and even if he hits it back deep I am going DTL to make him run and hit his BH. To see if he can do it. If he gets it back I am in control anyways.

I don't think this is the point or discussion here. The discussion is not mixing things up or when doors open, to take advantage of them. Its about the "why it is safer to hit cross court". Generally this is true and there are reasons for it. We are not talking about the exceptions here...As a rule of thumb, it is safer to hit cross court in most cases. In most cases its the ideal shot.

Go and look at the long rallies between pros...look at their average stroke, and average recovery position in accordance to each stroke. You will see that constructing a point by hitting crosscourt, is a large part of the game, and almost anything outside of this, is some form of risk, even if its a small risk. Yes, sometimes one need to take risks to have initiative to win matches...but there are times to do this, and times to prevent this and actually force your opponent to make the first mistake.

arche3
10-28-2011, 05:11 AM
I agree with you. But my reply was in response to limp asserting it is a tactical error to go dtl. And limp also believes it is harder to hit cc than dtl. Which I do not agree with as well. But I have not really delved into his reasons why yet.

I don't think this is the point or discussion here. The discussion is not mixing things up or when doors open, to take advantage of them. Its about the "why it is safer to hit cross court". Generally this is true and there are reasons for it. We are not talking about the exceptions here...As a rule of thumb, it is safer to hit cross court in most cases. In most cases its the ideal shot.

Go and look at the long rallies between pros...look at their average stroke, and average recovery position in accordance to each stroke. You will see that constructing a point by hitting crosscourt, is a large part of the game, and almost anything outside of this, is some form of risk, even if its a small risk. Yes, sometimes one need to take risks to have initiative to win matches...but there are times to do this, and times to prevent this and actually force your opponent to make the first mistake.

danno123
10-28-2011, 05:17 AM
While I love a good name-calling fest as much as the next guy, here's my take on the answer to the question: There is no "biomechanical reason" why cross court is safer, but there are several other types of reasons why it is. First, as is usually pointed out, it's over the low area of the net. Second, the court is longer. Third, and I think this is generally overlooked, "you get the whole slice of pie." What I mean by this is that when you aim in a certain direction, you're going to miss a little left or right. Viewed from above, your dispersion pattern left and right looks like a wedge (or a slice of pie). If you go cross-court and miss a little right or right, no big deal it's still in. If you go down the line, part of your shot-dispersion wedge is cut off by the court lines (and therefore OUT and unavailable).

edited to add: another reason might be this - sending the ball back the way it came is easy - the racket face is square to the direction you want the ball to go. When a ball is coming at you from left-to-right (or right-to-left), however, it has a sideways component of velocity. The direction at which the ball leaves your racket is now a function of your racket face angle and how fast the racket is moving. Imagine bouncing a ball off a stationary backboard at an angle. We all know how it will bounce from high school math: angle of incidence = angle of reflection. Now imagine the backboard is moving like your racket does. Angle of reflection is now a function of angle of incidence and velocity of the backboard. (Well, technically, the angle of incidence merely changes depending upon the velocity of the racket). In short, changing the direction of the ball is tricky because there are more variables involved.

dozu
10-28-2011, 05:26 AM
Go and look at the long rallies between pros...look at their average stroke, and average recovery position in accordance to each stroke. You will see that constructing a point by hitting crosscourt, is a large part of the game, and almost anything outside of this, is some form of risk, even if its a small risk. Yes, sometimes one need to take risks to have initiative to win matches...but there are times to do this, and times to prevent this and actually force your opponent to make the first mistake.

pro stuff doesn't quite apply to the recs.

against most of my regulars - mind you, these are all guys with college tennis background.... I am willing to give up court position to pound their swing flaws.... so I am saying, even against good rec players

pounding swing flaw is priority #1.

as to the original OP's question - it's all in the techniques.... some simple stance adjustment should take care of the difference between DTL and CC.

just imagine, you hit the same shot, but now you repaint the court to a different direction, and DTL can become CC and vice versa.... so biomechanically, there is little difference.

arche3
10-28-2011, 06:08 AM
50 and over?

So you complain we are behaving like kids and bickering here and you come back into this thread and call us names? Or am I reading your reply incorrectly? Arguments about tennis is what makes this place interesting. I miss Senoc lol. I am not over 50 btw...

arche3
10-28-2011, 06:11 AM
so true... Al this talk about percentage and blah blah... most of the time I just hit the guys BH regardless of my court position. that's enough to win lol. :)




pro stuff doesn't quite apply to the recs.

against most of my regulars - mind you, these are all guys with college tennis background.... I am willing to give up court position to pound their swing flaws.... so I am saying, even against good rec players

pounding swing flaw is priority #1.

as to the original OP's question - it's all in the techniques.... some simple stance adjustment should take care of the difference between DTL and CC.

just imagine, you hit the same shot, but now you repaint the court to a different direction, and DTL can become CC and vice versa.... so biomechanically, there is little difference.

rkelley
10-28-2011, 07:05 AM
Your experience is correct for specific reasons. The tendency of the ball to recochet off of the racquet increases with speed. I think that's pretty obvious. Wardlaw has described the specific instances when the recochet of the ball will adversely affect your shot when changing directions and when it won't as "inside strokes" and "outside strokes."

An example of an inside stroke would be if I hit a serve wide to your forehand in the deuce court and you returned the ball in to my body on the my backhand side. That is an inside stroke because the ball did not cross my body before I hit it. If I then change the direction of the ball by hitting my backhand cross court I am hitting in line with the ricochet, not against it. So, the ricochet will not affect the direction of the shot. That's a high percentage play in terms of court positioning and directionals.

An example of an outside stroke would be if I hit the same serve and you hit your forehand return cross court to my forehand side. That is an outside stroke because the ball crossed my body before I hit it. If the ball has any pace on it and I then try to change the direction of the ball by going dtl I am hitting against the ricochet which will tend to cause my dtl attempt to go wide, as well as leave me out of position and vulnerable to your cross court response if you get to the ball.

ON THE OTHER HAND, if your cross court return is a short and weak, then, depending on the height of the ball at the time of contact, I may go for a winner in the open court if it's a high sitter, or an approach shot dtl if it's below the net cord. The ricochet on a weak shot is not much of a factor. And, if I'm well inside the baseline at contact, you have less time to run down my winner attempt or approach shot.

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the reply Limp.

There's been some good conversation on this. I think lots of folks, including you, Dozu, and others have made some excellent, valid points. Maybe we all don't agree on every aspect of each others points of view. That's cool. Everyone can decide for themselves. However I think that there's a lot we do agree on also.

Let's go hit some balls.

dozu
10-28-2011, 08:07 AM
Let's go hit some balls.

that's what I've been saying.

too much hat and too little cattle around here.

HunterST
10-28-2011, 09:09 AM
just put'em up Hunter.... honestly, my impression of you is a hack (no offense, 99% people here are hacks, including the king) who at least has an open mind.


Oooh c'mom now. You're sounding like the people you chastise for making excuses to not put up a video.

dozu
10-28-2011, 09:16 AM
Oooh c'mom now. You're sounding like the people you chastise for making excuses to not put up a video.

I never back pedaled... I made an offer specific to Limp, he didn't bite... and that was that..

and the reason I did that, is I can smell fraud from miles away, and I was so certain when I hear someone who claims to have a better slice than Fed.... so much so I was willing to lower the price.

For you Hunter, I wouldn't label you a fraud... you are a stiff.

it's all about taking calculated risk... you gotta learn that on and off the court :)

HunterST
10-28-2011, 09:25 AM
I never back pedaled... I made an offer specific to Limp, he didn't bite... and that was that..

and the reason I did that, is I can smell fraud from miles away, and I was so certain when I hear someone who claims to have a better slice than Fed.... so much so I was willing to lower the price.

For you Hunter, I wouldn't label you a fraud... you are a stiff.

it's all about taking calculated risk... you gotta learn that on and off the court :)

Based on your unwillingness to play a tournament, it's clear that you're a 3.0 hack.


See how that works? Some people don't want to upload videos, some people don't want to play tournaments. It doesn't mean either of them is the "family cat," as you would say.

dozu
10-28-2011, 09:31 AM
Based on your unwillingness to play a tournament, it's clear that you're a 3.0 hack.


See how that works? Some people don't want to upload videos, some people don't want to play tournaments. It doesn't mean either of them is the "family cat," as you would say.

that's a fallacy.

I have shown how I play, and played fellow TTers, so there is visible evidence for assessment.

for Limp however, I can go by his ridiculousness similar to Sennoc, who is about a 3.5..... so considering Limp is about 60 years old, I am giving him a 3.0

see, I didn't grab it out of thin air..... there is logic in it.

HunterST
10-28-2011, 09:33 AM
that's a fallacy.

I have shown how I play, and played fellow TTers, so there is visible evidence for assessment.

for Limp however, I can go by his ridiculousness similar to Sennoc, who is about a 3.5..... so considering Limp is about 60 years old, I am giving him a 3.0

see, I didn't grab it out of thin air..... there is logic in it.

haha yeeeah, but you call me a 3.0 too when I've actually played USTA tournaments and know I'm a higher 3.5.

dozu
10-28-2011, 09:35 AM
haha yeeeah, but you call me a 3.0 too when I've actually played USTA tournaments and know I'm a higher 3.5.

ok so I am off by 0.5 ntrp points.... shoot me now.

HunterST
10-28-2011, 09:36 AM
ok so I am off by 0.5 ntrp points.... shoot me now.

there's about two double bagel levels between a normal 3.0 and a high 3.5. Big, big Difference.

dozu
10-28-2011, 09:40 AM
there's about two double bagel levels between a normal 3.0 and a high 3.5. Big, big Difference.

Big big difference, yes, maybe to you...

but to the king, they are all hacks to be double bageled, so from the king's stand point, they are similar.

see, when you become the king, you will understand.

DavaiMarat
10-28-2011, 09:46 AM
Bio-mechanicaly all forehands are the same, x court and DTL. The difference is the ball your trying to hit the shot off of.

Tactically, it's better to hit X-court, bigger target, lower net and easier recovery position. That's why most extended rallies happen X-court to X-court. Now technique wise it's easier to hit the ball back to whence it came (WARDLAW'S PRINCIPLES) then to change it's direction.

Therefore, tactically it's better to hit X-CRT, Biomechanically it's easier to send the ball back to where it came. Hence, it's biomechanically easier to hit XCRT.

Don't you love how logic works?

dozu
10-28-2011, 09:51 AM
^^ Hunter, watch and learn... there is logic everywhere.

HunterST
10-28-2011, 09:55 AM
^^ Hunter, watch and learn... there is logic everywhere.

haha he said what I said!

Honestly Dozu, I think I'd take you down in a match.

arche3
10-28-2011, 09:58 AM
So why does limp insist its harder to hit cross court? Wonder of wonders?

dozu
10-28-2011, 10:05 AM
So why does limp insist its harder to hit cross court? Wonder of wonders?

prolly some swing flaw..

based on limited evidence, I am guessing that his closed stance limits him and it's more difficult to pull the ball cc.

but, without seeing him play, it will be forever a mystery.

Hunter - what do you think?

HunterST
10-28-2011, 10:06 AM
prolly some swing flaw..

based on limited evidence, I am guessing that his closed stance limits him and it's more difficult to pull the ball cc.

but, without seeing him play, it will be forever a mystery.

Hunter - what do you think?

Well, from what I read, Limp said returning shots XC was higher percentage. When did he say DTL was easier?

DavaiMarat
10-28-2011, 10:09 AM
So why does limp insist its harder to hit cross court? Wonder of wonders?

It's not. It might be if you never adjusted your feet. Take your semi-open forehand stance hitting straight across and turn it 15-30 degrees depending on where you are in the court. Voila. X-CRT forehand.

Photoshop
10-28-2011, 10:16 AM
Aren't CC and DTL forehand the same shot technically/biomechanically? If I horizontally rotate a person hitting a CC forehand wouldn't that make it a DTL forehand? Am I missing something?

arche3
10-28-2011, 10:16 AM
Well, from what I read, Limp said returning shots XC was higher percentage. When did he say DTL was easier?

He.said this below. In a previous post where he also called me an idiot... :
Limp typed...
"To the OP, I hope that, if nothing else, you've gathered that hitting cross court may be more difficult that hitting down the line to the extent that you have less time because you have to and prepare earlier and hit the ball earlier to get the ball cross court than you do when hitting dtl. Nevertheless, it's essential that you learn to hit cross court as a primary shot because, from the backcourt, tennis is primarily a cross court game."

5263
10-28-2011, 10:17 AM
It's not. It might be if you never adjusted your feet. Take your semi-open forehand stance hitting straight across and turn it 15-30 degrees depending on where you are in the court. Voila. X-CRT forehand.

you set your feet dif for dtl and x court?

dozu
10-28-2011, 10:20 AM
Aren't CC and DTL forehand the same shot technically/biomechanically? If I horizontally rotate a person hitting a CC forehand wouldn't that make it a DTL forehand? Am I missing something?

we are all saying the same thing - it's the same shot.

However, I wonna bring up a point about disguise..... it's easier for a modern rotational player to hit either dtl or cc using the same stance.... but for an old style closed stance linear player, if he lines up for a dtl and changes his mind to go cc, it can be difficult.

5263
10-28-2011, 10:24 AM
it's easier for a modern rotational player to hit either dtl or cc using the same stance.... but for an old style closed stance linear player, if he lines up for a dtl and changes his mind to go cc, it can be difficult.

good point, and the other way too.
if the line up for cross court, very hard for traditional player to go dtl

dozu
10-28-2011, 10:26 AM
He.said this below. In a previous post where he also called me an idiot... :
Limp typed...
"To the OP, I hope that, if nothing else, you've gathered that hitting cross court may be more difficult that hitting down the line to the extent that you have less time because you have to and prepare earlier and hit the ball earlier to get the ball cross court than you do when hitting dtl. Nevertheless, it's essential that you learn to hit cross court as a primary shot because, from the backcourt, tennis is primarily a cross court game."

this argument is simply wrong.... the time difference between DTL and CC is so tiny, compared to the time used in the other phases - split step, adjustment step, back swing, racket drop....

Hunter - this is another evidence for the 3.0 assessment.

when a 3.0 sees a hard shot coming, he doesn't know how to adjust and usually hits it late.... hence the 'DTL is easier' conclusion.

dozu
10-28-2011, 10:31 AM
you set your feet dif for dtl and x court?

in FYB's 'modern footwork' videos, there is this so-called 'walking step' pattern that brings up the right hip..

I have seen a video, with a top US coach giving lessons to the Chinese women pros - Zheng Jie being one of them.

and this coach gave the girls a tip, about bringing the right hip up, so they can hit a CC shot just like a DTL shot, without having to pull the ball across their body.

so altering the stance (the feet line) is a legit way to alter the shot direction.

DavaiMarat
10-28-2011, 10:54 AM
you set your feet dif for dtl and x court?

I do. My X-court stance is slightly more open to the court while down the line is more closed. In relation to my body they are the same. It depends where I want me body to move forward too. My inside-out forehand is really super-open.

Here's a better way to imagine it.
Hitting a stroke X-CRT....draw a line between my two toes and continue it to the net. My X-CRT line will be directed more toward the net post. My DTL will be going toward then center of the net then the X-CRT. The inside-will be even more toward the center or past it even.

Limpinhitter
10-28-2011, 03:23 PM
I never back pedaled... I made an offer specific to Limp, he didn't bite... and that was that..

and the reason I did that, is I can smell fraud from miles away, and I was so certain when I hear someone who claims to have a better slice than Fed.... so much so I was willing to lower the price.

For you Hunter, I wouldn't label you a fraud... you are a stiff.

it's all about taking calculated risk... you gotta learn that on and off the court :)

You're lying again, Dozu! I never said anything like having a better slice than Fed, or anyone else! You can't argue on the facts so you just make s**t up! You're an A.H.!

dozu
10-28-2011, 04:28 PM
ok, you said fed's slice is a chop, and your way is better.

now start back pedaling.

Limpinhitter
10-28-2011, 04:37 PM
ok, you said fed's slice is a chop, and your way is better.

now start back pedaling.

Another lie! I didn't say "my way" was better. I said Fed didn't hit a slice he hit a chop, and that the traditional slice was a more useful, versatile shot.

dozu
10-28-2011, 04:55 PM
Another lie! I didn't say "my way" was better. I said Fed didn't hit a slice he hit a chop, and that the traditional slice was a more useful, versatile shot.

fine - the ridiculousness is just the same.

arche3
10-29-2011, 02:15 AM
You're lying again, Dozu! I never said anything like having a better slice than Fed, or anyone else! You can't argue on the facts so you just make s**t up! You're an A.H.!

Limp this is what you typed below. In a thread where you go on and on you know better than the pros today. There are various examples of your arrogance in that thread. Here is but one.
Limp typed:

"..... the notion that a chop, with its lower margin for error, will hold up better than a more traditional slice backhand, just doesn't fly. I've proven it to myself, at my own level of play. I have no doubt that the same would hold true at the world class level."

So based on your hacking you deduced your way of slice is better than Federer. You think you know better and you do not.

bhupaes
10-29-2011, 05:47 AM
To the OP: I don't believe there are any significant biomechanical differences between hitting DTL and hitting CC. It's a slight timing difference - one hits a little later for DTL. Of course, there are major tactical implications involved in deciding whether to hit DTL or CC, as the discussion in this thread indicates.

Clay lover
10-29-2011, 06:07 AM
hahah i dunno i just thought it was easier to rotate the shoulders to set up for a crosscourt shot...maybe not

Limpinhitter
10-29-2011, 07:31 AM
Limp this is what you typed below. In a thread where you go on and on you know better than the pros today. There are various examples of your arrogance in that thread. Here is but one.
Limp typed:

"..... the notion that a chop, with its lower margin for error, will hold up better than a more traditional slice backhand, just doesn't fly. I've proven it to myself, at my own level of play. I have no doubt that the same would hold true at the world class level."

So based on your hacking you deduced your way of slice is better than Federer. You think you know better and you do not.

That's your opinion. You could just as easily argue that I don't know better when I say that Federer is not as good a volleyer, or net player, as many of the greats from the 60's and 70's, and your basis for that opinion would be equally incompetent.

dozu
10-29-2011, 07:42 AM
That's your opinion. You could just as easily argue that I don't know better when I say that Federer is not as good a volleyer, or net player, as many of the greats from the 60's and 70's, and your basis for that opinion would be equally incompetent.

apples and oranges.

about the slices - you were saying that Fed's technique is inferior, against TODAY's opponents, than the way it was done 40 years ago, against TODAY's opponents.

about volleyer - that's certainly open for debate, Fed plays against today's opponents, while the 60s and 70s greats played against opponents from that period.

arche3
10-29-2011, 08:02 AM
That's your opinion. You could just as easily argue that I don't know better when I say that Federer is not as good a volleyer, or net player, as many of the greats from the 60's and 70's, and your basis for that opinion would be equally incompetent.

So which is it then? A straight answer. Are you arrogant and think you know better than Federer or is it simply you don't know any better?

dozu
10-29-2011, 12:08 PM
it's very difficult to argue tennis techniques with people whose agenda is to protect a faceless image.

I wouldn't bother if not for this weather that is getting me stuck indoors...

fortunately I got 1.5 hours of hit in yesterday, so I am now soaking in the endorphine high.

did manage to get out to a mall, despite the dangerous traffic. was hoping to watch a 'live in HD' of the Mets Opera (Don Giovanni), was quite surprised when the window told me it was sold out!

anyway - will have to kill some time with my golf simulator later....

so much for global warming.

and Limp, you see, if you ignore facts like Al Gore does, you end up a laughing stock like Al..... the more you fight it, the deeper you dig that hole.

Al is smart... he is quiet nowadays, waiting for the next warming cycle to begin, which may not come in another 50 years.... poor Al.

eliza
10-29-2011, 12:43 PM
I am so happy to be part of the tennis community....when I hear arguments, not insults!!
Don Giovanni, a cenar teco, m'invitasti, e son venuuuuuutttoooooooooooo!!!!!
One of my fav, I love Leporello.

5263
10-29-2011, 01:00 PM
so altering the stance (the feet line) is a legit way to alter the shot direction.

it may be legit, but it's a nice give-away for your opponent.

mxmx
10-31-2011, 06:31 AM
To the OP: I don't believe there are any significant biomechanical differences between hitting DTL and hitting CC. It's a slight timing difference - one hits a little later for DTL. Of course, there are major tactical implications involved in deciding whether to hit DTL or CC, as the discussion in this thread indicates.

I disagree...

There is quite a intentional difference in hitting the follow through of a down the line stroke, compared to the cross court stroke. Each type of groundstroke has its own line of follow through. As one would pronate on a smash or a serve, the same can be said of having a particular angle of the face of the racket following the ball - the technique of a DTL shot and that of a crosscourt, is not exact. A inside out forehand has the most obvious exaggeration of what i am speaking of. One has to almost open the angle of the racket far more and cannot merely hit a regular follow through in that direction. The same can be said of the DTL backhand, as well as the rare inside out backhand.

Timing and footwork is NOT the only thing to look at here...the directional path and face angle of the racket plays a integral part...

bhupaes
10-31-2011, 02:52 PM
^^^ Okay, we disagree, no problem.

My contention is that these adaptations you mention don't classify as significant biomechanical differences. Also, changing timing will cause a different racquet face angle to be presented to the ball - it has to since the racquet swings in an arc.

For the inside out shot, I deliberately hit later, taking care to position myself at the proper distance from the ball. Of course, the contact point will influence the follow through path. Sometimes, going DTL, one tends to push through (guide) the shot than hit it, which results in a different follow through, but my best DTL shots are those which I hit like a regular topspin shot. What can I say, every ball is different, and any statements we make can only be evaluated in the context of what the average shot in the average game situation should look like ideally.

sureshs
10-31-2011, 02:57 PM
I disagree...

There is quite a intentional difference in hitting the follow through of a down the line stroke, compared to the cross court stroke. Each type of groundstroke has its own line of follow through. As one would pronate on a smash or a serve, the same can be said of having a particular angle of the face of the racket following the ball - the technique of a DTL shot and that of a crosscourt, is not exact. A inside out forehand has the most obvious exaggeration of what i am speaking of. One has to almost open the angle of the racket far more and cannot merely hit a regular follow through in that direction. The same can be said of the DTL backhand, as well as the rare inside out backhand.

Timing and footwork is NOT the only thing to look at here...the directional path and face angle of the racket plays a integral part...

Exactly. CC and DTL shots are not hit just with a change in racquet face angle, but involve different degrees of linear momentum towards the target.

Off The Wall
10-31-2011, 06:13 PM
I think pros can hit DTL or CC with the same linear motion. That would mean racquet head angle changes.

5263
10-31-2011, 06:33 PM
I think pros can hit DTL or CC with the same linear motion. That would mean racquet head angle changes.

I think you are more correct here. Of course there are several types of Fhs, and it appears those other posters use one for dtl and a different for cc, which is quite common for rec players. Pros use Fhs for different situations; like they hit a hooking Fh to really get a heavy angle on a cc....but may use that same hooker to slip one up the line to the dtl corner if they are pulled wide. If in a rally with a easy to reach ball, they most often will use the driving std modern Fh for dtl and cc.

mxmx
11-01-2011, 06:18 AM
^^^ Okay, we disagree, no problem.

My contention is that these adaptations you mention don't classify as significant biomechanical differences. Also, changing timing will cause a different racquet face angle to be presented to the ball - it has to since the racquet swings in an arc.

For the inside out shot, I deliberately hit later, taking care to position myself at the proper distance from the ball. Of course, the contact point will influence the follow through path. Sometimes, going DTL, one tends to push through (guide) the shot than hit it, which results in a different follow through, but my best DTL shots are those which I hit like a regular topspin shot. What can I say, every ball is different, and any statements we make can only be evaluated in the context of what the average shot in the average game situation should look like ideally.

Now imagine, still hitting the ball as early as possible in front of you, with opening the face of the racket instead.

suresh: Exactly. CC and DTL shots are not hit just with a change in racquet face angle, but involve different degrees of linear momentum towards the target.
Yes...largely what im speaking of...there is almost a 90deg maintenance of angle in the followthrough in relation to your eventual target.

When standing on the advantage side of the court when receiving a backhand, there is quite some change in the momentum(and racket face) of your racket when hitting DTL compared to crosscourt. With a double backhand, the top hand does most of the work and the racket face(and basically the palm of your hand) opens towards the target and tries to maintain facing the target so to speak. The way the left arm goes around the neck is almost more upward and forward and the crosscoart stroke almost more outward and almost around the body instead.

Standing on the deuce side, hitting a forehand DTL, the palm goes toward the target and the follow through is almost more upward and forward. Hitting crosscourt, it is almost more around the body. On the running forehand, there is sometimes a modern stroke where the follow through is around the back of the neck/head...With closer inspection you will note that a large part of this particular stroke, is VERY forward and toward its target, and not merely just brushing the ball....definately not the same standard followthrough motion. So basically each stroke has different circumstances.

Another sport that applies to this, is cricket. Hitting toward the target has definate intentional follow through and is not just hitting the same stroke earlier or later.

sureshs
11-01-2011, 06:41 AM
From my study of an actual pro match, the linear to angular ratio for DTL varied. Sometime, when there was time, and the requirement was to go approximately DTL, the stroke looked closer to CC. When the time was critical, and the DTL space was narrow, there was a pronounced extension (not just the traditional 4 balls in a row, but more) towards the target, before the racquet follow through to the side.

PigsPlayTennis
11-01-2011, 05:01 PM
Recently i heard Nadal say that Djokovic was doing two things very well, and that they were two hardest things to do in tennis. One of them was change direction. I can't recall what the other one was, maybe serve return.

Not serve return. Hes moving into the court and taking the ball earlier.

sureshs
11-01-2011, 06:52 PM
With a double backhand, the top hand does most of the work and the racket face(and basically the palm of your hand) opens towards the target and tries to maintain facing the target so to speak. The way the left arm goes around the neck is almost more upward and forward and the crosscoart stroke almost more outward and almost around the body instead.


Exactly what I observed Mardy Fish do.